121 | Brent Barghahn: Avant Climbing Innovations - Gear Design, Onsight Climbing & Magic Line

Brent Barghahn is a tinkerer first and a climber second and understanding that order tells you a lot about him. Since he was a child Brent saw the world through the lens of design, building gadgets to solve the problems he found along the way. He even had a charge account at his local hardware store that was funded by his parents. That same instinct to build, solve, and design has followed him through his life. He spent five years at Black Diamond as a product designer where he helped shape the equipment that we use every time we climb, with one of his highlight contributions being the trigger keeper we now see on large C4 cams.

While Brent lived in his van in the Black Diamond employee parking lot, he spent all his free time climbing and managed to tick his way into the elite tier of climbing athletes. With accomplishments like rope solo NIAD, an onsight of Ecstasy, and ground up Golden Gate. This conversation goes deep on what it actually means to approach climbing as a maker rather than just a performer. Brent talks about onsight threshold climbing, his term for the style of climbing he values most and why he thinks redpointing has become a party trick that the media celebrates at the expense of something he feels to be more meaningful.

We talk about the Flip-Stop—the product that started Avant—which was born from a frustrating session on Cobra Crack. Brent explains why he built Avant as a hobby business on purpose, why he describes his twelve-product lineup as solving problems that big brands ignore and the four words he uses to describe why he climbs: puzzles, community, solitude, and toil.

Brent is one of those rare people who exists at the edge of the elite climbing community without being a professional climber by his own definition and he's made peace with that in a way that feels on purpose rather than resigned.

Topics include: onsight threshold climbing, redpointing vs onsighting, Flip-Stop carabiner stabilizer, Avant Climbing Innovations, rope solo NIAD, onsight of Ecstasy, Magic Line 5.14c, trad climbing gear design, climbing ethics and style, ground up vs rap in debate, route development, climbing community building, bouldering for trad performance, and what it means to climb at the elite level without going pro.

#eliteclimber #ethics #tradclimbing

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Transcript

00:00:00:04 - 00:00:16:15
Kyle
I think your your background is kind of interesting because you've always had this like duality. You've had the tinkering side, the building side, like the engineering kind of brain ever since you were super young. And then you've also had this affinity for like action sports.

00:00:16:17 - 00:00:43:01
Kyle
You know, a lot of people would just exist in one lane. It's like I'm just an engineer or I. I'm the monster drinking action sports motocross guy. At what point did like, those two worlds blend? And it seems like I mean, I guess you you were already designing stuff with motocross, but it seemed like climbing is what really cemented those two things together and really kind of like blended those two points of your life.

00:00:43:02 - 00:00:45:25
Kyle
Is that like a correct assessment of, like how that worked or.

00:00:45:25 - 00:01:17:06
Brent
I think it's most cohesive in a career sense in climbing, but I actually think that what appears to be a spectrum from geeky to extreme, and you would think they would be very different. I think I brought both to the same activity. I think actually had, an element of creating the canvas for the activity. So if you think about skateboarding, if you think about snowboarding where there's rails and jumps and things like that, if you go to a terrain park, you ride on the canvas that the park created.

00:01:17:09 - 00:01:37:14
Brent
But I really enjoyed creating the jumps and welding the rails. So I actually combine those from a very early age. I was like when I was eight, I think I got two by fours for my birthday so that I could make a dirt bike jump. So there's always, there's always combining the two athletics with the the tinkering.

00:01:37:16 - 00:01:37:29
Brent
So

00:01:38:04 - 00:01:38:26
Kyle
From like a super

00:01:39:00 - 00:01:48:23
Brent
yeah. Yeah. From like as early as early as I can remember. Yeah. Like two by fours for my birthday a while there. One year. Steel bars one year. Yeah.

00:01:48:26 - 00:01:51:20
Kyle
Where was your. Were your parents like dad in a construction

00:01:51:22 - 00:02:11:19
Brent
My dad was a bit into construction. He worked in a for a concrete company and was a very hands on, talented tinkerer himself. And they definitely facilitated. Yeah, I like to say that my best education was the fact that my parents gave me a charge account at the local hardware store. This is like from when I was like 8 to 15,

00:02:11:22 - 00:02:22:09
Brent
and I just thought I was getting away with something, but I could just go buy screws and paint, paint and wood and just charge it to the family account.

00:02:22:11 - 00:02:24:25
Brent
And I think I learned way more there than engineering school.

00:02:24:27 - 00:02:41:29
Kyle
That's so cool. What a. I mean, yeah, you think of, like, parenting tactics and and things like that. And you like the iPad generation, like, get your kid at Ace Hardware account. Like, that is so cool. Like, go to the store whenever you want to ride your bike down there and grab, build, do whatever you

00:02:42:04 - 00:02:43:04
Brent
Yeah, it was awesome.

00:02:43:06 - 00:02:44:01
Brent
Is that.

00:02:44:03 - 00:03:05:11
Brent
It was really cool. I grew up on three acres. My brother and I were into motocross racing. That was our primary pursuit. But we couldn't ride those race bikes in our neighborhood, so we had these little play bikes, but we also had, bicycles. And I was into unicycling and all these things, and I was just outside creating all the time.

00:03:05:14 - 00:03:26:18
Brent
So I actually think it's the perfect blend in action sports of how you create the canvas for the activity. And I think I brought that right along to climbing. And I think that's what becomes apparent in the gear tinkering and route development and things like that. But honestly, it feels like super true to what I've been up to for my athletic pursuits.

00:03:26:20 - 00:03:47:00
Kyle
Yeah. So, I mean, if you talk about the canvas, like building the jumps and things, I think, like, at least for climbing, it seems like the canvas is pretty set, you know? And that's kind of the one weird thing about climbing is you're finding things that already exist rather than creating them in a way. Although you could argue like a face climb, you're creating this route, but in the end it still exists.

00:03:47:00 - 00:03:54:20
Kyle
You're not actually building anything. So how do you see that that translate? How do you see that canvas? Kind of. What would you describe your canvas in

00:03:54:22 - 00:04:19:24
Brent
Yeah, I, I think that's what pulled me into the trad climbing and gear is, in a way, how you're protecting the root. You get a little bit of the puzzling aspect with Peter, but definitely on the side of, gear. And then I did get into root development relatively early, like a few years into climbing. I was like, looking for new roots and like, the idea of dreaming something into existence.

00:04:19:26 - 00:04:39:07
Kyle
And that was just like, because I've spoken to so many people, and for me, it was never a passion of mine to like, go create a new route. There's there's already so many classics and it's like, especially as a newer climber, at least for me, it's like I'm already overwhelmed by trying not to die. Like, let's just focus on things that have been done before.

00:04:39:09 - 00:04:47:12
Kyle
Would you say that drive for route development was just like in your core, or did you have a mentor that showed you and kind of like opened that door for

00:04:47:15 - 00:05:13:28
Brent
It was just totally in my core. Like, I had a backyard terrain park for snowboarding when I was growing up. And I loved creating the jumps and inviting all my friends over the like. User experience side, which is the career lingo lingo I use now. But it was like, yeah, creating and sharing, the canvas. And so I totally remember creating roots and then trying to get my friends climb on them and share the experience.

00:05:13:28 - 00:05:31:26
Brent
And even on mountain projects of like writing up the route description and making the whole cohesive experience feel a certain way. I wouldn't say good or bad, but like, have a feeling and create an experience for the climber. I just really enjoyed that.

00:05:31:28 - 00:05:32:03
Kyle


00:05:32:06 - 00:05:52:19
Kyle
I think a lot of people refer to route development as like an artistic expression or an artistic pursuit. You're a lot more on like the engineering side, I guess. Do you see those two worlds blending? Do you see them? Kind of like talking about the same thing. Would you lean more towards an artist in your climbing or artistry, or do you see, like, where's those two worlds

00:05:52:25 - 00:06:20:25
Brent
Yeah, I use the artist artistry word very sparingly. I would call myself a creative, but, like, kind of a logical creative and. Yeah, user design. I definitely think it's heavy on design, even placement of, like, if you're at one obvious rest hold and where the bolt is placed plus or minus, like a few inches, will guide how you're looking up the next section of the wall, what it feels like to be resting there and planning ahead.

00:06:20:27 - 00:06:48:14
Brent
I think these subtleties make a big difference of how you flow up a route, or even like kind of hiding a bolt as the as it bulges over at the top and making it feel like you have to quest. I think all those things come down to how it's bolted and where the bolts are placed. So there is, especially in the sport climbing, there is some element of like deciding what hold, stay or go, but even the bolting even, yeah, all those sorts of things.

00:06:48:14 - 00:06:59:14
Brent
How you presented on the internet makes a big difference in what the experiences of the route. So I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if I'll go to artistry for myself, but definitely a design.

00:06:59:17 - 00:07:23:15
Kyle
Yeah. I like the, the focus you said on like the minuscule details or like the bolt between like here or here and like small adjustments. That's one thing about like contracting work or even I mean, yesterday we hung up a shelf in my, in my bathroom and like, that's the one thing about doing things like that. The one thing I don't like about that is how specific you have to be like to hang a shelf.

00:07:23:15 - 00:07:41:01
Kyle
It's like you got to make sure that it's exactly to the quarter inch space on both sides. And to me, I'm just like, I just want to throw it up on the wall, you know? And so that part of my brain is not as connected, but it seems like that's a huge role in in design and engineering and product design.

00:07:41:02 - 00:07:56:00
Kyle
Right? It's like specifications, product specifications. Like everything has to have small, small tolerances. And if you don't, if you're not so focused on those details, things won't work the way they're supposed to. And it seems like you're carrying that into like how you approach your root development in your climbing, in your

00:07:56:02 - 00:08:28:28
Brent
Yeah, I think I, I think I do end up in the experiential design side of things. And I really design by feel where it's especially sort of black time and there's engineers that are really good at refinement and doing calculations and, and things like that. And I don't think I'm actually an engineer's engineer. I think I'm, I think product design is like the, the sweet spot for me where I do go by feel kind of fast and loose in, early iterations and yeah, make make decisions by intuition.

00:08:29:00 - 00:08:36:15
Brent
So I think I'm actually I think that's my sweet spot of like, yeah, creating the experience without overthinking it.

00:08:36:18 - 00:08:39:27
Kyle
Yeah. So you are kind of in this weird blend between artistry and

00:08:40:00 - 00:08:40:28
Brent
Yeah, yeah.

00:08:41:02 - 00:08:47:20
Kyle
trusting that intuition and trusting by feel rather than just, like, strictly following the numbers. That's cool, I like

00:08:47:23 - 00:08:58:27
Kyle
So I mean, great caveat to like your time at Black Diamond. I think that, you know, hearing like I worked at Black Diamond, I think that could peak a lot of people's interest in general.

00:08:59:00 - 00:09:15:19
Kyle
I think working for such a prolific company as a climber, regardless of what the position is, it could be like, man, that would be just so cool. What was your process like of applying for the to the job? Getting hired? Like, what was that process like for you? And then we can kind of dive into like what your

00:09:15:23 - 00:09:16:10
Brent
role.

00:09:16:12 - 00:09:43:04
Brent
Yeah, it's kind of fun story. I definitely got really lucky, honestly. I was living in Minnesota my entire life through college, and then I was working engineering job outside of university for a few years. At Polaris, you mentioned Street Bike City. You probably know the motorsports world a little bit. I was still living in my motocross era of enjoying motorsports and working at Polaris.

00:09:43:06 - 00:10:09:22
Brent
But then when I was 22, I was becoming more and more of a climber and less into the the motorsports at the time looking for something new, wanted to move west. And I was in this rotational program at Polaris while living in my van, I was on this frugality kick where I was going to minimize my overhead, live in a van, and stash as much of my engineering money as I can to buy future freedom.

00:10:09:24 - 00:10:30:21
Brent
So anyways, I was living my van while working full time and one of my rotations was six months in rural Iowa. So like I was about as far as you could imagine from working in Black Diamond. And during that six, during those six months, I'm like, something's got to give. I want to move west. This is I'm not on the path.

00:10:30:24 - 00:11:00:03
Brent
And I just got lucky. A friend sent me an open application window for Black Diamond, and I was applying and other at other companies in Salt Lake City applied to like, a sprinkler company and random other engineering companies. And I just applied at Black Diamond, just like normal. And, I think the one thing I did that helped me get in the door was I had a ski trip coming up anyways, and I looked up the hiring manager on LinkedIn and was like, hey, I'm going to be in town.

00:11:00:05 - 00:11:05:23
Brent
Can I swing by for an informational interview? So I put myself out there a little bit,

00:11:05:25 - 00:11:20:14
Brent
and I think, but they really I think the real story there is, what I submitted on my resume was like my unicycling achievements and like random stuff, like a portfolio of random things I built. And I think they love that real world tinkering.

00:11:20:16 - 00:11:25:14
Brent
And I think they're like, we should at least interview this, this weirdo probably be entertaining

00:11:25:17 - 00:11:26:08
Kyle
This guy's got some

00:11:26:15 - 00:11:46:28
Brent
yeah. So I think that was my only chance. But I took, I guess, before I did the informational interview, it was like a 20 minute tour while I was passing through, and then I did my first formal interview with the team from the McDonald's parking lot in Iowa in my van, and I let that slip.

00:11:47:05 - 00:11:49:20
Brent
It's like part of the part of the stick,

00:11:49:23 - 00:12:07:23
Brent
and they loved it. So they're like, this guy is unique at the very least and might bring something interesting to the team. But my hiring manager, Brendan, really took a chance on me. I was 22 and I didn't have true product design experience, but was clearly a tinkerer.

00:12:07:25 - 00:12:14:08
Kyle
And so describe your role. Like what were you in charge of? And I guess what was your first project that you were kind of tasked

00:12:14:10 - 00:12:33:23
Brent
Yeah, I was on the product design team and I was a mechanical engineer. So there's industrial designers and mechanical engineers on those design teams. And the industrial designers are in charge of the esthetics, of making it look pretty, pretty bad. Wearing demeaning word, make it look

00:12:33:25 - 00:12:34:10
Kyle
marketable.

00:12:34:10 - 00:12:43:13
Brent
marketable, elegant, compelling, make it look compelling. Let's use that. And then, the engineers are in charge of making it work functionally.

00:12:43:16 - 00:13:09:25
Brent
And so you would kind of bounce files back and forth and prototypes and work together. But the mechanical engineers were the primary product designers, and you can imagine something like a carabiner, how it is sculpted in appearance also affects the strength. And so heavily tied where if you look at something like, an iPhone, there is like a skeleton that's it affects how it looks.

00:13:09:28 - 00:13:24:18
Brent
And then there's all the function hidden inside. But with carabiners it's different. So I was in charge of mechanical engineering, certain products as a product designer. But I learned a lot of skills in sculpting and user design through.

00:13:24:18 - 00:13:25:25
Brent
That as well.

00:13:25:27 - 00:13:30:15
Kyle
How much of this was like developing new products versus improving upon an older designs?

00:13:30:21 - 00:13:59:19
Brent
Yeah, that's a good, good point. A lot of what we would do, maybe two thirds was improving. Pass designs make it 10% lighter, improve this issue, fix this issue. Things like that was a lot of the just like product life. So life cycle maintenance was a lot of the roll. And then there was like maybe one third of, hey, we want a cam that's lighter.

00:13:59:22 - 00:14:02:15
Brent
Maybe a bad brief. We get what, what

00:14:02:21 - 00:14:04:09
Brent
what's called product briefs

00:14:04:11 - 00:14:17:14
Brent
of like, hey, Petzel is making a micro traction. We want to make a traction, but we wanted to do this extra thing and it would be, like, written out in words of what this product should be. And that's what you'd be given as a task.

00:14:17:16 - 00:14:47:01
Brent
That was the fun one third. And then there was this off off script time where you could just kind of make wacky ideas and use the company money to just, like, try things and see what, see what works, what doesn't. And that's really what I enjoyed the most. Yeah. Kind of like diminishing returns for my satisfaction of like, not that fun to to make something a new color and slightly more angular and a little bit lighter, like the HTC guide was one of the things I worked on.

00:14:47:03 - 00:14:57:25
Brent
I made the, the, the new year, which is old at this point. The like 2019 slight update, which you probably don't even know about because it was just like a little, little tweak.

00:14:57:27 - 00:15:03:02
Kyle
The only one I saw was like the regular one. And then you had like the alpine one, which is like thinner for

00:15:03:04 - 00:15:22:21
Brent
Exactly. So during that generation revision, we also made it lighter, a different color, and then the holes like more angular and modern. But that's a good example of like a lot of what the time was. But when people asked me, what did I do, a black diamond? I don't point at the HTC guide, because it's kind of confusing.

00:15:22:21 - 00:15:25:29
Brent
Like I didn't invent invent the thing, but there's a lot of.

00:15:26:01 - 00:15:27:02
Kyle
You see that angle right

00:15:27:02 - 00:15:27:12
Brent
Yeah,

00:15:27:12 - 00:15:27:21
Kyle
Like that

00:15:27:28 - 00:15:29:01
Brent
totally.

00:15:29:03 - 00:15:52:01
Kyle
How much of that is business like? Product? That product design pipeline, that that life cycle? How much of that is just business of like, okay, we need like an MVP, a minimal minimum viable product out. We know it's not perfect. We already have future generations of this product in mind that are going to be better, but it makes more sense for us as a business to just launch this product.

00:15:52:02 - 00:16:08:07
Kyle
Now, get people on board with the product, and then sell better and better versions of this product as time goes on. While the company could probably just invest in other six months and just come out with like V4 right away, like, is that built into the business? Is that just kind of part of like product design

00:16:08:12 - 00:16:35:14
Brent
Yeah, that's that's totally part of product design. And at that point my perspective was product is king and the product should be as good as possible. And I definitely was myopic in the design team and always advocating for like, hey, we're almost here. If we just get a few more weeks, then it'll be way better. But the reality is, at least of the old business model is you need to sell into retail stores fall or spring seasons, and you do have certain deadlines.

00:16:35:16 - 00:16:58:10
Brent
So, you can't just push it out by weeks or months. You end up, you're really pushing out by a year because for a spring product, which would be climbing, climbing gear or things like that, if you miss this spring, you can't fill the pipeline until next spring. So there were a lot of harsh realities there, and some of Hail Marys and things like that.

00:16:58:12 - 00:17:19:05
Brent
Like the ultralight. I screw the green one with the flip out wire gate. That's one of the things I did. I didn't do any of the body design, but early on, as, that's one of my early products, is they handed me this screw with a different mechanism for flipping out a handle that no one liked, and it would get loose and rattly.

00:17:19:05 - 00:17:40:27
Brent
And it was it was just like a failing project before product launch. And there was like a one month window of like, hey, do your very best. Let's see if we can pull this off, try to fix it. And if we don't fix it, then we either like cancel it or bump it by a year. And so this was some of the higher pressure moments.

00:17:40:29 - 00:18:05:22
Brent
And I came up with the wire gate and made prototypes by hand with pliers and things like that. And I'm like, I think this will work. There's like 85% confidence that this is going to be a good product. You just like tell that to the business team and the higher, higher levels make the real decision there. But from a design perspective, yeah, that's what it felt like.

00:18:05:23 - 00:18:31:00
Brent
As like we did take chances and usually well, it was definitely not in the structural elements. For safety elements they do go through like mandatory testing. But for like mechanism and feature elements, there's definitely an element of or there's definitely a part where you're launching the best thing you can in that time frame and then making improvements.

00:18:31:02 - 00:18:31:20
Kyle
Yeah.

00:18:31:25 - 00:18:33:11
Kyle
Upon the product. Yeah.

00:18:33:14 - 00:18:47:12
Kyle
It seems like the that example with the the Ultralight Ice crew might have also come into the larger cam handle. What do you

00:18:47:15 - 00:18:52:24
Brent
trigger keepers? Yeah, I was on a wire gate kick. It's on a wire gate kick.

00:18:52:24 - 00:18:53:02
Brent
This

00:18:53:03 - 00:19:03:10
Kyle
holding up the number five big purp. And it's got the trigger keeper wires. I read that you were. You invented that specifically.

00:19:03:12 - 00:19:23:08
Brent
Yes. So this this is a great a great story to to better explain how it works and, how the product design process works, where this is the one thing when people ask me what I did, a black diamond, this is what I'll point to of like, oh, I designed this trigger keeper. You. It's like the one thing people can

00:19:23:11 - 00:19:29:08
Kyle
mean, I remember when it came out, I was like, damn, that is sick. You know, it's like such a simple thing, but it's so cool.

00:19:29:10 - 00:19:37:02
Brent
But I didn't actually do the sculpting of this final product. But I came up with the concept,

00:19:37:05 - 00:19:43:24
Brent
so I was like the the old timey tinkerer inventor who, like, made the concept work.

00:19:43:27 - 00:19:54:21
Brent
And then Jeremy Stack in the cam team did the hard work, the refinement that I actually not the best at. They did all the hard work to make it come into existence.

00:19:54:24 - 00:20:02:07
Kyle
So what were the gaps between your like, functional idea and the final product? Was it like where were the functional gaps?

00:20:02:07 - 00:20:04:02
Brent
Yeah. Maybe I can send you a photo for the

00:20:04:07 - 00:20:04:15
Kyle
That would.

00:20:04:15 - 00:20:04:18
Kyle
Be

00:20:04:21 - 00:20:28:22
Brent
video. What I did is I was out climbing this new route in Zion. This was 2017. So, yeah, four years into my climbing, trying to put up new routes and it had this crazy pitch where you tunneled into the mountain. Basically, it was like number sixes between you and the outside of the cliff, and you're like chimney, chimney around this pinch coming out.

00:20:28:22 - 00:20:35:18
Brent
And then doing this like number six is the layback, like kind of a stout, weird 511 pitch.

00:20:35:20 - 00:21:03:27
Brent
And for the chimney part these things just are boat anchors and you're just dragging them up. And yeah, I feel like so much of my design is just solving for my own annoyances. And I'm like this. There's sticks people do, or some people put sticks through the cam lobes, but you can't mid 511 pitch like extract the stick and like place it and keep going.

00:21:04:00 - 00:21:30:01
Brent
And it was one way I really had just an moment on a Monday where I, I got back from for my weekend trip was at my desk and just like staring at cams and looking through my junk drawer of random gadgets. So like, there's got to be something here that's simple. And I had some plastic keychain carabiners at my desk, and I was holding them up and like, imagining what it might look like.

00:21:30:04 - 00:21:49:29
Brent
And then I just took two of them down. It really was like a cool moment, which is why I point to it. Took two carabiners down to the lab, to the little, little chop shop engineering corner, and I just cut them up and I glued and screwed them on so that the nose of the plastic carabiner was here.

00:21:50:01 - 00:22:09:26
Brent
And then the hinge of the plastic carabiner was here and put one on each side. And I made the exact same function in like one hour of modifying my cams. And then I took it out the next week, same route. I was like, wow, this is awesome. I think this is the answer.

00:22:09:29 - 00:22:40:05
Brent
It just happened that around that same time, there was already a plan to revive or to revise the C4 cams and make them that that 10% lighter new colorways slightly modernized. So there you had that project plans, but they didn't have like a technological improvement. And I completely unplanned unscripted came up with this interesting improvement and like handed my prototype to that team was like, we got to do this on the big cams.

00:22:40:08 - 00:22:51:20
Brent
And that's how this came about. And again, they did all the hard work of figuring out the wire specs. And how does it how do you mold these features into these existing parts?

00:22:51:23 - 00:22:54:22
Brent
But I definitely came up with the concept on that one.

00:22:54:25 - 00:22:56:28
Brent
So that's the fun one to point to.

00:22:57:00 - 00:23:02:01
Kyle
How did you guys decide which Cam's got it and which didn't? Like there's a clear line

00:23:02:03 - 00:23:03:04
Brent
Yeah,

00:23:03:06 - 00:23:05:10
Kyle
like why didn't the three make

00:23:05:13 - 00:23:10:25
Brent
Even the four was like arguably not worth it, but it shares the same trigger keeper.

00:23:10:28 - 00:23:29:23
Brent
So these are just engineering realities and even product cost realities. It has a shared part for the four and five, maybe the six. So it's like if you already have these whole features on the trigger bar for the four. Why, why why not include it?

00:23:29:25 - 00:23:35:25
Brent
It would look weird with empty holes. And then the three is just not big enough to matter.

00:23:35:28 - 00:23:39:13
Brent
So those are those are more the judgment call.

00:23:39:15 - 00:23:53:23
Brent
More like the judgment call. User experience decisions, that you have to make as a product designer. But again, that's kind of like where engineering and product design can diverge, where the engineer is like, well, less hooky is better.

00:23:53:25 - 00:23:58:24
Brent
So like, let's make them all less hooky. Yeah.

00:23:58:27 - 00:24:26:20
Kyle
Nice. That's a cool story I love that. Yeah. Like I said, I remember seeing that functionality and just like it's just it's unique and different enough where you're just like, wow. You know that's that is cool. That's exactly what we need for these big camps. Does Black Diamond have like an incentive structure? You know, like in the automotive industry for salespeople, you have like spiff like, you know, for, for at least for automotive industry, like for today, if you sell X amount of cards, you get 100 bucks per car extra.

00:24:26:21 - 00:24:48:26
Kyle
It's like an incentive. Like, do you guys have incentives to to be a tinkerer, to come up with new visionary things? Like because I could imagine, you know, I don't know, like there's always lazy people in the world and it's like, you get a job. I guess if you're lazy long enough, you just get fired. There's no incentive programs for like, you know, come up with something new and super exciting and you get like a bonus or something

00:24:49:02 - 00:25:07:06
Brent
know, and that kind of plays into why ended up leaving is I felt like a really valuable member of the team. If anything, I was lazy on the, the refinement side of I really liked the first part of the product or the first part of the project, and then my interest would maybe fade in

00:25:07:08 - 00:25:11:12
Brent
like the final 1% improvements and like, it's pretty good.

00:25:11:15 - 00:25:12:09
Kyle
And I go to the next

00:25:12:11 - 00:25:26:10
Brent
Yeah, totally. But I feel like I brought some real interesting improvements to the products. But now you just paid a salary. Even names on patents don't even mean anything monetarily.

00:25:26:14 - 00:25:27:27
Brent
You just

00:25:27:29 - 00:25:32:27
Kyle
Names on patents. Do you like do you, as the designers get names on patents for things that you come up

00:25:33:01 - 00:25:52:11
Brent
Yeah. So on a few patents, whether you could even just be like peripherally part of the team, and have your name on the patent, but they kind of just do it as a favor for your career and your resume, but it doesn't actually, it's owned by the company and you don't get any compensation, at least a black diamond.

00:25:52:11 - 00:26:15:00
Brent
There's no, like, innovation bonus. Yeah. Now, which would have been cool as a business owner. Now I'm like, yeah, that's what you should encourage. So it's funny, I had yeah, that myopic design team lens and I was like completely detached from the business realities. And now I'm definitely on the on the other side of like being an entrepreneur and understanding.

00:26:15:03 - 00:26:19:04
Brent
Yeah. The realities of is this good enough? Yeah.

00:26:19:06 - 00:26:22:16
Kyle
Let's let's talk about the Z4. Let's push the.

00:26:22:17 - 00:26:26:05
Kyle
Purple came in a little bit off camera.

00:26:26:08 - 00:26:54:05
Kyle
So these I love these cams. They are by far my favorite cam I a lot of people kind of like talk down on the micro versions like the .1.0.2, but they're like oh, the triggers are squishy, I, I love them. What was significant about this cam? What was like the obviously lighter? There's other things I think like the dual, the dual stem talk to me about like the significance of

00:26:54:05 - 00:26:54:20
Brent
34.

00:26:54:22 - 00:27:14:19
Brent
Yeah, this is another one where I can point out of, like I helped improve this cam and my name is on the patent for the Z4, but I wasn't on the engineering team that did all the hard work. Jeremy Stack and Garrett Harmsen did all the hard work. And, yeah, they really made this thing come to life.

00:27:14:21 - 00:27:33:05
Brent
But I was part of the original cubicle brainstorm of like, hey, how do we make small cams better? And we had a team discussion with athletes, and some of the athletes were like, oh, the C threes are better than all the small cam. Or that a lot of the athletes were like, the C threes are the best small cams.

00:27:33:07 - 00:27:56:01
Brent
And then a lot of athletes were like the X fours are the best small cams. And it was like almost evenly split. And it was extremely divisive. And there were pros and cons that are really clear for both. And we kind of were digesting this in our cubicle, kind of like Office space style. It's like a quadrant of four cubicles, and you just turn all your chairs inward and you're just kind of riffing.

00:27:56:04 - 00:27:58:08
Brent
Some of my favorite parts of working there.

00:27:58:10 - 00:28:04:07
Kyle
Was the goal to sunset both the X4 and the C3, and then come up with this new version.

00:28:04:09 - 00:28:22:10
Brent
yeah to to give like a high level view of what a product, what a project like that looks like, at least at that time at Black Diamond was there's like a two year product development cycle that's put on the calendar of like, we want a new small cam and it wants it should be better than the previous small cams.

00:28:22:12 - 00:28:42:20
Brent
And sometimes that's all the the category manager is able to say is like it's just got to be better. Like we'll kind of learn about what better means along the way. But yeah, it's silly to have these two different versions. Let's make one that's better than both. That was the pitch and of that two year cycle. I might be getting these details a little bit wrong.

00:28:42:21 - 00:29:09:29
Brent
This is the gist is like a year of it is development. And that's from ideation. Early prototyping. Commit to a design path, get it up to ready for production. And that's kind of like all spread out throughout that year. And then there's a second year of, kind of like test production runs. You need sales samples to physically take to trade shows and to dealers to get them to buy your stuff.

00:29:10:01 - 00:29:29:08
Brent
And then after you have these orders or at least have, confidence and commitment, then you need to like place production orders with the factories. And the factories can still take months. So it's like quite a long time frame. But back to the pitch. The pitch was to make a better small cam.

00:29:29:10 - 00:29:35:18
Brent
And we had this. Yeah, we had really clear pros and cons for both the C3 and X4.

00:29:35:21 - 00:29:58:00
Brent
And what it really came down to is there's different needs for placing the cam and when it's place. So when you're placing it you want it to be really stiff. Yeah. You want it to be like a wire a stopper that you can like slot into place, especially with the small cams. It's like I always just place them like super tight, kind of like a passive placement.

00:29:58:02 - 00:30:15:12
Brent
And it's safer, more secure. So you want it to be stiff so you can slot it, but then once it's placed, you want it to be flexible so that it doesn't walk. And the C3 is where stiff for placing. But they would walk and be kind of sketchy if you like, kicked them or had some rope dragged.

00:30:15:14 - 00:30:41:26
Brent
Where the X4 is an alien style design. We're extremely flexible, and that was actually kind of annoying to place. You'd have to like, wiggle it into place and then cleaning, especially as if it like kinked sideways. You didn't have leverage. You didn't have leverage to like, extract it. So we were just like riffing in our quadrant about what it what it might be to solve this issue.

00:30:41:28 - 00:30:53:23
Brent
And we were inspired by those kids toys that are like beads on a string where they're all loose until you pull the string, and then it's like a stiff bar. I don't know if you can utilize this. I don't know what they're called,

00:30:53:26 - 00:30:54:17
Kyle
visualizing it, but I

00:30:54:19 - 00:31:02:20
Brent
Yeah, yeah, I maybe there's a visual there, but but basically it's like, how do you achieve both.

00:31:02:23 - 00:31:27:22
Brent
And for this project I was part of the fun ideation phase. And I helped 3D prints and prototypes and draw some napkin sketches of like, hey, this this might work. And we spent like a month trying different ideas and then I wasn't involved at all. So I yeah, maybe some false credit there. Like I helped come up with the idea of what it should be and drew some napkin sketches that were relevant.

00:31:27:22 - 00:31:48:00
Brent
But I didn't do any of the hard work. But yeah, yeah, credit to Jeremy and Garrett. Which is nice to explain. That long form of like, yeah, people want people want the answer of like, this is what I did in Black diamonds. But the reality is, as a team, yeah, it's a team effort. And what I was good at, the shadow of my strength.

00:31:48:01 - 00:32:00:10
Brent
My strength was early tinkering. Kind of like old timey inventor. Just like working away in a little shop. But I wasn't that great at the refinement. And, like, the final, final design.

00:32:00:12 - 00:32:05:19
Kyle
That was cool, though. I love the breakdown. I never actually thought about the cam as two different, like, front and

00:32:05:26 - 00:32:06:14
Brent
It works

00:32:06:14 - 00:32:14:05
Kyle
and that, like, blew my mind there, because if you look at it, you can literally see that there's. Oh, whoa. It's flexible when you do that

00:32:14:12 - 00:32:15:00
Brent
So this.

00:32:15:04 - 00:32:16:23
Kyle
No way. You're blowing my

00:32:16:23 - 00:32:17:22
Brent
like, look how stiff that.

00:32:17:22 - 00:32:17:28
Brent
Is.

00:32:18:01 - 00:32:18:20
Kyle
is wow.

00:32:18:20 - 00:32:21:00
Brent
And then once it's placed, it's flexible.

00:32:21:03 - 00:32:22:05
Kyle
So why is

00:32:22:08 - 00:32:42:23
Brent
It's a little bit about this zone being isolated, but it's mostly about these four wires in tension that create like a, they create a width where there's the center wires in compression. And these tension wires are wider.

00:32:42:26 - 00:32:44:05
Brent
Wow. Yeah.

00:32:44:07 - 00:32:55:29
Kyle
So now I know why I love them so much. You know, it's like just a feel. It's a user experience. And you're like, I don't know. I like so many times I've heard people describe like, I don't know why, but I love these. I think that's why.

00:32:55:29 - 00:33:01:09
Brent
Yeah. It's like the seven five size even you like can feel how easy is a slot it and

00:33:01:15 - 00:33:03:20
Brent
place it exactly where you want it.

00:33:03:23 - 00:33:16:13
Brent
And that's something that that's a little tidbit for trad climbers is people talk about the camming zone and some old cams even had green zones in the middle, but then they're like, don't place it tight.

00:33:16:16 - 00:33:19:17
Brent
Tight is better as long as you can clean it.

00:33:19:22 - 00:33:19:24
Kyle
it.

00:33:19:24 - 00:33:26:27
Kyle
So that's what everyone's like for people who talk shit on some of my videos like that was over canned, I'm like, it's only over cam if it doesn't come

00:33:27:00 - 00:33:39:19
Brent
Yes. Yeah, totally. Over cam is a myth besides your partner's experience. But the fact that this is different, you pull the trigger means you can extract it surgically as well.

00:33:39:21 - 00:33:43:26
Brent
Just like placing is, as long as you can pull the trigger all the way, and there's just like

00:33:44:04 - 00:33:44:17
Brent
a

00:33:44:20 - 00:33:46:07
Brent
few millimeters of looseness,

00:33:46:10 - 00:33:48:18
Brent
you can pull it out super easily.

00:33:48:21 - 00:33:51:29
Brent
So tight it tight is better for small cams. Especially

00:33:52:01 - 00:33:52:27
Kyle
Cool.

00:33:52:29 - 00:33:54:04
Brent
So yeah, it's fun on

00:33:54:08 - 00:33:59:01
Kyle
That was like that was super cool. I, I didn't I didn't even know what I was about to walk myself into at that

00:33:59:05 - 00:34:01:25
Brent
And then you're really teasing me here with this

00:34:01:27 - 00:34:03:10
Brent
fluffy carabiner.

00:34:03:12 - 00:34:05:18
Brent
Yeah. Trying to trigger me.

00:34:05:21 - 00:34:21:10
Kyle
Yeah. You push it forward a little bit more. Cool. Thank you. So let's talk a little bit more about the team at Black Diamond. We don't have to go into this too much. But like you're working with like you've been talking about, you're working with a team you've referenced, I think two people twice now.

00:34:21:10 - 00:34:23:10
Kyle
What are their names again?

00:34:23:12 - 00:34:29:01
Kyle
Okay. Like, what did you learn from working in that environment with these people in a climbing specific like

00:34:29:06 - 00:34:33:01
Kyle
place? Like what was the best part about it?

00:34:33:03 - 00:34:33:27
Brent
Yeah, it's.

00:34:33:27 - 00:34:54:04
Brent
It's nice to be able to explain this long form, because I feel like I've done that bit of like, oh, I designed the trigger keeper over and over, but they're the design team for climbing hard goods. So cams, blade devices, carabiners was like four of us. Kind of some floating names. But there was Alex Baker as well, and Pete Comfort and.

00:34:54:06 - 00:35:03:05
Brent
Yeah, you sit in this quadrant and you're in your cubicles and it's kind of a funny juxtaposition of this like office space elements that we are just like on our computers in cubicles.

00:35:03:09 - 00:35:04:03
Kyle
It's like a sitcom

00:35:04:03 - 00:35:14:18
Brent
Yeah, yeah. But then the quadrant and it was really funny. There's like moments where you literally just all turn our chairs inwards and are just kind of bullshitting, riffing on ideas.

00:35:14:21 - 00:35:16:28
Brent
And those are the special moments for sure.

00:35:17:00 - 00:35:40:03
Brent
Yeah, it was it was really special working with such talented other engineers. Like like I mentioned, my my sweet spot is it's like one phase of the product development process. And I learned so much else about the whole the whole journey of bringing your product to life. So if you ask about what I learned, it definitely would be how to take an idea and commercialize it and bring it to market.

00:35:40:06 - 00:35:59:23
Brent
Which is. Yeah. So if you're looking at that two year product development calendar, my specialty was like the first 6 to 8 weeks. That was my sweet spot. And it was kind of what I was doing my entire life back in as high school or my garage. I would make these cool things and be like, oh, it would be cool to bring that to life.

00:35:59:25 - 00:36:25:21
Brent
Yeah, we're getting tangential, but I made these like snow school snow bike things that were awesome, like a bike frame on snowboards. And I was ripping up my backyard doing all kinds of cool tricks. And I had the dream of bringing that to life as a product. No idea how that would work. That was just like I nailed the first six weeks of that two year calendar, and I learned about all those other months of what what it takes to bring a product to life.

00:36:25:23 - 00:36:55:28
Brent
So I think that that was like the true education I got at Black Diamonds. But the secret sauce that I really enjoyed was the fun kind of off script moments with the really talented team, and that's what I miss the most. As I left, I left too little kind of over it. But in retrospect and the feelings for the years afterwards was, wow, that was a really special team of talented individuals that were super passionate about climbing and what a dream job it great

00:36:56:01 - 00:37:05:18
Kyle
What were the circumstances of your your exit? I know Covid had a lot to do with it. You know, talk to me about kind of like what that transition in your life was

00:37:05:21 - 00:37:31:12
Brent
Yeah, it I think it's just a reality of engineering that it's kind of full time or bust. And my idea of career development was to scrap it when I was young. I did live in my van for five years, mostly in the parking lot and trying to be frugal, trying to buy my future, future runway and what that meant in a career sense is that I wanted more unpaid, unpaid time off.

00:37:31:15 - 00:37:52:09
Brent
So I kind of pitched. Maybe it was bad timing. It was Covid, but also it was like a lull in product development. I had pitched, hey, I want 80% time for 80% pay, basically just more unpaid time off and I thought it was a super fair ask and it really backfired. It took away a lot of the gray area freedom.

00:37:52:09 - 00:38:10:13
Brent
I already was kind of doing some unpaid time off, off the books with my team, my managers, and by the time the direct ask had to go up through the CFO or CEO type, people pitch Black Diamond is a public company. So these were just like industry folks.

00:38:10:15 - 00:38:17:29
Kyle
So is is are the CEO, CFO, industry people? Are these people outdoor athletes and climbers or are they completely removed from all

00:38:18:03 - 00:38:19:05
Brent
Definitely not.

00:38:19:08 - 00:38:19:16
Kyle
really.

00:38:19:18 - 00:38:27:13
Brent
Yeah. Now, certainly not athletes. They would maybe fancy themselves as outdoorsman of like like they.

00:38:27:19 - 00:38:28:18
Kyle
I've made a campfire.

00:38:28:18 - 00:38:39:22
Brent
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But now these are just like, retail brands, industry people and by industry people. I don't even mean climbing industry, just like outdoor things.

00:38:39:25 - 00:38:58:25
Kyle
Isn't that so frustrating, man? Like, even in the, like you go industry, you go political. Like the, the people who are ultimately making the large macro decisions that affect our day to day as climbers aren't climbers aren't like real passionate outdoor people who live it every day. And that it's like such an injustice in my eyes.

00:38:58:27 - 00:39:21:12
Brent
Yeah, it is pretty frustrating. So I did like leave disgruntled for sure. And I won't throw too much shade a black diamond, but yeah, I really enjoyed that five ish years I had there look back fondly, but in the end I'm glad I was like pushed away and had to go out on my own, which I from the get go.

00:39:21:17 - 00:39:37:22
Brent
I knew that I had maybe a ten year time horizon as a full time engineer, but I've always been entrepreneurial. I always wanted to work for myself and just kind of live a freeform life on my own terms. And so that was the vision and I made it seven years.

00:39:37:25 - 00:39:40:22
Kyle
Okay. Yeah, it's all good. That's a good run. Yeah.

00:39:40:22 - 00:40:03:11
Kyle
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00:40:03:13 - 00:40:24:06
Kyle
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Kyle
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00:41:06:20 - 00:41:16:17
Kyle
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00:41:16:19 - 00:41:33:21
Kyle
So let's. I mean, after you quit Black Diamond, you or climbing a full time and you've, you've kind of picked up a pretty killer resume during that time. And also while you were in Black Diamond as well, just to list off some of these, we got a rope solo Nyad in August of 2018.

00:41:33:26 - 00:41:56:27
Kyle
Golden gate on L cap ground up in 2019. You on sighted ecstasy in March of 2020. L l Corazon Ground up 2022. Unsupported team. Free rider in a day. 2022 El Nino on 2023 and Sendero Luminoso in 2024. So, I mean, I'm sure that's just like scratching the surface of, you know, what you've actually done, but those are some of the highlights.

00:41:56:27 - 00:42:23:24
Kyle
I'm sure a lot of people recognize those climbs. I want to take time to like, dive into just a couple of these stories and kind of like unpack them. But before we do that, I want to explore kind of like the climber that you are, you know, unpack yourself as a climber. I think the first one that comes to mind, and I think this is a somewhat played out topic, but I think it's unique in your situation is just like risk management and risk philosophy.

00:42:23:24 - 00:42:45:04
Kyle
So, you know, you told me in our meet and greet that you had no close calls, no injuries in your climbing career. And for someone who's like known to climb like hard trad r routes, I feel like it's quite an accomplishment for someone who's gone through an injury myself for my own reasons. Everybody knows what those are like.

00:42:45:05 - 00:43:03:22
Kyle
How much of the fact that you haven't gotten injured, how much of that is like luck systems or just baked into this risk aversion that you acquired during your time in motocross? Because I know you like, broke tons of bones, like lots of injuries. Did that color your risk management when you went into climbing?

00:43:03:22 - 00:43:32:18
Brent
Yeah, maybe the one caveat there first is like I've had some close calls with rockfall and even on trade routes, I think I think those are just purely luck. But I think things like, unprotected climbing falls and, yeah, not having the right gear or, rope errors, rappelling errors, all those things definitely come down to trying to have preventative systems.

00:43:32:20 - 00:43:52:04
Brent
And yeah, I think you're right. I think there's something there where I did do my years in the action sports, extreme sports world, where you expect to break something every year. And, it was just part of the game, as you would probably break an arm, break a leg at some point during your motocross season.

00:43:52:06 - 00:44:16:24
Brent
And that got really old. It's not that fun and it really hurts. It's really expensive. And I think when I got into my maturing years as an early adult, 18 to early 20s, I'm like, I don't really want to live that life anymore. And being on my own, supporting myself and needing to work. Yeah. It just made a lot less sense than when you're 15 and you break a leg.

00:44:16:24 - 00:44:41:03
Brent
You can just sit in the couch and play video games for your summer break, and it's okay. But a lot of less appealing. So I yeah, I have done some hard trad routes that have marginal gear. And I've also done stuff in El Cap where you do have to. Matt, you have mandatory unprotected climbing sections for sure, like free solo seems so binary of like I'm do I have a rope on or not?

00:44:41:06 - 00:45:08:07
Brent
But on El Cap there's like definitely no fall times. For a cap free climbing, that is. You're on like weird routes that just don't have the gear unless you have hammers and pins. But I think I've always approached it from a pretty conservative standpoint, even though I have like some of the tics that seem like I'm going for it is almost always, finding extra gear that people previous descents weren't using.

00:45:08:09 - 00:45:21:09
Brent
Or I do rehearse it on top rope enough beforehand that I'm like, really, conservative and going for it. So like elements like that, I think mostly just stuff like I'd rather just be strong enough to put more gear in. Yeah.

00:45:21:09 - 00:45:21:26
Kyle
Yeah.

00:45:21:27 - 00:45:38:01
Kyle
I think the biggest thing is like the best way to approach risk is to be aware of it in the first place. And I think you we were just like, just blatantly aware of the risk and its consequences. I think that's like at least the pitfall for a lot of beginner try climbers. It's like if you haven't been injured, you'd never broken a bone before.

00:45:38:02 - 00:45:45:09
Kyle
Just fill the stoke. You're like the reality of the consequences lying on the other side just don't really hit you that hard. Until you have to pay the consequence.

00:45:45:11 - 00:45:57:16
Brent
Yeah, I think the, the lifetime of committing to gap jumps on my bicycle and my dirt bike is like, I know what it's like to size up something, decide if you're good enough and commit or not.

00:45:57:19 - 00:46:00:13
Kyle
You also know what it's like to fall from the air and hit the

00:46:00:17 - 00:46:26:17
Brent
yeah. So it's like I think it's that commitment factor and being realistic with my abilities. And sure, I've had moments that are I've been terrified and yeah, thankfully I've avoided any close calls. There's even one specific example that's fun to point to is I did this route in northern Arizona, repeated the second ascent of this 13 C or D trad route, and I made a video with my friends.

00:46:26:17 - 00:46:48:12
Brent
And I'm placing beaks, hand placing beaks to protect the crux where you like kind of run out. I placed a bike, another bike, and then this shallow stopper. And then you do this like V8 sort of face boulder. Crux. Pretty exciting for sure. And it looks really dramatic on camera. But what you don't know is the first essentially is only place to the stopper.

00:46:48:14 - 00:47:08:17
Brent
So the beaks are really dramatic. But those are actually the the like extra redundancy in the system that made it feel reasonable where I wouldn't have climbed the route and just the, the little brassy like t little braces that he used. So that was one where I'm like, I'm not willing to sign up for the risks that the first sentence took.

00:47:08:17 - 00:47:15:13
Brent
And I would just be like, happy with the top rope flap. Yeah. Or get creative.

00:47:15:16 - 00:47:25:20
Kyle
I think there's so much of like you could have easily just accepted like, oh, that's the risk of this climb. You know, I love that you have this other lens of like, how can I make it safer?

00:47:25:23 - 00:47:29:22
Kyle
a great caveat to this quote. You said, like, I think all the Yosemite risk taking is dumb.

00:47:29:22 - 00:47:48:16
Kyle
There are other ways to be fast or there are other ways to climb. This is a good example. It's like it's so easy to just accept things the way they are, and it's so cool to have that visionary mindset of just like questioning the status quo and for your own safety. It's like, how can I, can I do this in a different way?

00:47:48:18 - 00:48:06:02
Kyle
So specifically towards the cemetery risk taking, like, when did you first come to realize this phenomenon that's going on? What was your immediate reaction, and did you have any sort of temptation to accept the status quo, or was it immediately just like you guys are crazy, like there's other ways to do this. What was that experience

00:48:06:09 - 00:48:30:13
Brent
Yeah. Yeah. I won't give you back the quote. That's your clickbait quote. You're fishing for. But I think it's it can be foolish. I use that word, and I just wasn't that impressed, honestly, of, like, the hanging it out. A simple way to say it is, if you're going to try to do the two hour Nos speed record, yes, you are taking obscene risks and you are signing up for that.

00:48:30:13 - 00:48:49:07
Brent
For that feat, if you're doing an eight hour nose speed run, which is incredibly fast, I don't think you need to free solo. I don't think you need to run it out more than 30 to 40ft. Having never done an eight hour nose. But I've done I've done things like that, and I'm close enough to the scene to see what people are doing.

00:48:49:09 - 00:49:09:04
Brent
So I think for like the cool guy Yosemite, 8 to 12 hour, I'm going to do the nose and no headlamp crowd. Really take the risks that are Alex, that Alex and Tommy are taking for the record and thinking they're cool for doing that is like the vibe I get from being around it. And I just think that's foolish.

00:49:09:07 - 00:49:35:27
Brent
And don't think the risk for risk sake is that cool. Yeah, I'm using the core of the bunch, but is that, Yeah. Admirable. I don't know, it just doesn't impress me where I'm way more impressed by creative problem solving and, yeah, like short fixing when you sort of fix for speed tactics. Are you familiar? Maybe explain it.

00:49:36:00 - 00:49:56:24
Brent
You. So you just. Ed climbed a pitch and are you French? Free to pitch on the nose. And for speed tactics, you want to get a head start while your partner is judging that pitch because you don't need to belay them. They're just judging, cleaning it. So you pull up a bunch of rope, maybe 30 to 50ft, and get a head start on the next pitch while they're jogging before they put you on belay.

00:49:56:26 - 00:50:20:00
Brent
And you can either free solo with a 50ft pass, or you can take a Gregory flipped upside down, do this little micro traction trick and rope solo leader of solo, the head start maybe like at 75 to 80% the speed and it's like, yeah, again, two hour pace. No, you can't do that eight hour pace. Sure. Yeah. Why not?

00:50:20:03 - 00:50:34:15
Brent
It's like you can just be a little more creative. Yeah. I've always tried to solve the risk problem with systems and thinking ahead and yeah, problem solving at home on paper.

00:50:34:18 - 00:50:38:21
Kyle
people taking on like you, you quoted the obscene amount of risk.

00:50:38:26 - 00:50:51:25
Kyle
They're not trying to beat Tommy Caldwell and Alex handle the speed record. So do you think it's like there's a macho ism in there where, like, I think there's also in the aid realm, there's like daisy soloing,

00:50:51:28 - 00:50:52:15
Brent
the,

00:50:52:18 - 00:51:01:09
Kyle
like Daisy soloing, speed records like what's what's the push there? Do you think that's just what's capturing the media's attention and that's what's marketable now.

00:51:01:09 - 00:51:10:05
Kyle
And so people are like pushed to do that so they can try to get their name out. Or is it is it isolated in the communities that are in the valley and they're like, you know, beating their chest about it

00:51:10:11 - 00:51:28:14
Brent
Yeah, I think there's a little bit of the Valley macho ism. I think there's a little bit of climbing can be more of an extreme sport than we acknowledge. Like I see in the motocross world, you sign up for those broken bones, you sign up for this like extreme risk taking. And in climbing, we're generally not taking risks.

00:51:28:17 - 00:51:55:17
Brent
And yeah, I explain that I'm over that aspect, but I think it's in climbing, and speed records for sure. I think people like that feeling so good on them. Like just know you're you're doing that. You're playing that game. But it being celebrated is like a cool thing. That's what I'm just like personally a little unimpressed by where when there's clear alternatives that could have accomplished the same thing.

00:51:55:19 - 00:52:07:17
Brent
Yeah. Culturally, I don't know. And I will say that in 2017, 2018, I was in the Valley and present during some significant accidents and just thinking,

00:52:07:21 - 00:52:09:00
Kyle
Related to taking these

00:52:09:02 - 00:52:19:25
Brent
yeah, like to El cap speed climbing accidents, one person being paralyzed. And I was like, cross the valley, watch the whole rescue and learned about it afterwards like I was on a wall.

00:52:19:27 - 00:52:48:02
Brent
And then another one where it was like to one on climbers that fell to death and like I was there watching a different thing and like saw that occurrence happen. Yeah. So that's those are formative years as well in my climbing. That's being. Yeah. And like mid 20s. And now that I think about it like yeah those those are stories I don't think about very often.

00:52:48:02 - 00:52:59:25
Brent
And yeah really painful feelings around climbing and like tough months afterwards and I think that's also shifted the reality of like,

00:52:59:27 - 00:53:01:09
Kyle
Did you know the

00:53:01:11 - 00:53:19:00
Brent
That were all I was just a bystander scenarios. But in the community near like of of these new, these people were kind of playing the. Yeah. Similar game to what I looked up to you. Yeah. So those those are certainly formative reality checks.

00:53:19:02 - 00:53:44:09
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah that's a tough one. It's it's hard to like the, the, the risk taking seems to be more clickbait, at least when we're talking about like, dilution of information towards, like the masses through social media or through media in general. And whether we like it or not, I think that media is very influential to our, our own process of like, what?

00:53:44:09 - 00:54:02:15
Kyle
What should we do when we were trying to be a better climber? And I think that it's changing a little bit, but I still think there's that element of like, if you want to be a good climber, you have to take on more risk. And that's definitely glorified. I mean, especially with alcohol and free soloing. And yeah, it's just it's refreshing to hear and it's not everywhere.

00:54:02:16 - 00:54:20:13
Kyle
Like I speak to so many climbers that, you know, I ask the question like, are you a taker or a follower? And obviously it's extremely circumstantial, but I think that there's a lot of push to be like, you have to fall all the time, otherwise you're not pushing yourself. And it's like it's way more nuanced than that. You know, like, yeah, sure, falls are okay, but like there's a time and place for it.

00:54:20:15 - 00:54:34:12
Kyle
And so it's just like weird or, it's just important to to bring that narrative, I think, to more people so that people understand. It's like, yeah, declining is dangerous. It's like, come up with your own risk management and just make sure you can climb for a long

00:54:34:17 - 00:54:38:25
Brent
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Make sure you understand what you're taking on.

00:54:38:28 - 00:54:54:23
Brent
I think that, yeah, the solo nyad is one I'm proud of for the fact that I did zero free soloing, at least at the time. I think it was one of the faster times of just like. No, like, I just, like, had a normal amount of protection the whole time.

00:54:54:26 - 00:55:15:17
Brent
And there's risks of being tired and on clipping the wrong thing and having an accident. But in terms of managing all the risks that I could, I didn't. I was roped up the whole time where so many of the solo El cap in a day, a sense. So like, I could at least, like, walk across this ledge without a rope, like that little, little step of difficulty.

00:55:15:17 - 00:55:31:08
Brent
Like, I probably could do that without a rope. Maybe this five foot hand crack. I'll just, like, do this one pitch without a rope. And I was like, I'm just going to rope pitched out and, like, stay connected the whole time and see how fast I can do that. It's just lots of planning ahead.

00:55:31:11 - 00:55:31:28
Brent
Yeah.

00:55:32:01 - 00:55:39:20
Kyle
So, I mean, let's dive more into that specific ascent.

00:55:39:22 - 00:55:46:03
Kyle
I guess. Just tell me, like the story you said, it was like one of the most formative experiences for you as a climber. Like,

00:55:46:06 - 00:55:50:13
Kyle
what kind of climber were you when you started to think about that objective?

00:55:50:15 - 00:56:14:25
Brent
Yeah, that was 2018. So I was 24 at the time, and I was an aspiring trad climber, aspiring Yosemite climber. But I worked full time in a cubicle at Black Diamond, so I was climbing a lot in Little Cottonwood and trying to work through that harder trade routes there. And, yeah, honestly, it was driven a little more by wanting to be relevant.

00:56:14:25 - 00:56:36:09
Brent
The community wanted to do things that seemed cool, and I think that was an empowering, personal breakthrough, because I felt like I did something that was like, at the level of elite, and it was adding my name to the list of climbers that I admired. There's a mason IRL blog post, and he was someone I really looked up to.

00:56:36:09 - 00:57:09:10
Brent
You, look up to as a climber, I look up to as a creator especially. Is. Yeah, as a, as a creative approach to climbing. I think he brought like a really unique perspective. But he and maybe like ten others at the time, I don't even know of kind of all the who's who of Yosemite climbing had done this thing and I had done a Nelson a day with a partner where I was short fixing like entire pitches at some points because I was like, get at the short fixing.

00:57:09:10 - 00:57:34:09
Brent
I was just describing of like short fixing with the solo belay. No problem. Can do it really fast. And I was like, yeah, I wonder if I could do this alone. Not not to spite this partner, but just to have this, like totally different experience. And it was my secret little plan. I told like just a few other people, wasn't brave enough to claim it ahead of time and even, like, tell people I was going to try.

00:57:34:12 - 00:57:54:11
Brent
But I had done some practice runs in Little Cottonwood on multiple routes and was like, I think I can do this. And I did it on a three day weekend, one day of work off, drove out alone, and it didn't. Summer right after a fire closure, which is relevant because I was the only one on the nose.

00:57:54:13 - 00:58:25:29
Brent
There was one other party on Zodiac way or on the way, but I was like truly solo on the nose, which was amazing. No other people. So I think it was formative because it felt like this thing that I wasn't sure I could do. Sense of adventure, sense of whatever personal, empowerment, accomplishment. But then a bit of it feeling like, oh, I'm like at this elite level and feel relevant, which felt really important at that age, to be honest.

00:58:26:02 - 00:58:31:12
Brent
And being like 24 and trying to cut my teeth and be a part of the community.

00:58:31:14 - 00:58:43:24
Kyle
How are you? So you're you're climbing up, wrapping back down, cleaning your gear, jogging back up. How are you doing that on the long traverses like the Linn Hill traverse? Like how are you back cleaning that entire pitch? That is, like, straight sideways?

00:58:43:25 - 00:59:05:15
Brent
Yeah. You kind of have to, like, reverse aid, basically. So it's like a lot of shenanigans. Yeah. You you do it. Yeah. You do whatever you can wind rope selling. You had to be clear. As you climb the pitch, you fix the rope, you rappelled down, grab your your bag of supplies, and then you jug up and you clean your gear, and then you stack the rope and do it again.

00:59:05:18 - 00:59:14:10
Brent
So you cover the train a bunch of times. And yeah, to your point, on the nose traverses, you can't just,

00:59:14:12 - 00:59:15:06
Kyle
Lower back down.

00:59:15:08 - 00:59:23:06
Brent
Gregory, zip down the line. You have to, like, kind of reverse aid shenanigans. Yeah. It's fun. It's good puzzle.

00:59:23:07 - 00:59:39:04
Kyle
I'm sure you're tempted to just, like, swing all the way back to the other belay. At some point you're like, go. Go for the ride. Yeah. You had called it a spiritual experience. That was something that you had said about this climb. You seem like a pretty pragmatic guy.

00:59:39:04 - 00:59:39:15
Brent
Yeah.

00:59:39:18 - 00:59:42:26
Kyle
Yeah. What is like, spiritual mean to you in this context?

00:59:43:03 - 01:00:12:04
Brent
Yeah. I don't know when I said that word. Probably because you were fishing for, like, spiritual as the keyword. Yeah. I think empowering and a sense of, like, deep solitude and a sense of this feels like something humans aren't meant to do of, like, we're kind of like, going against our nature here and doing this unique thing with our with our minds as much as with our bodies.

01:00:12:07 - 01:00:27:24
Brent
Yeah. I think in that sense, I remember, you know, talking about the last pitches because I kind of through the night, which I think is good strategy, is I topped out at like 11 a.m.. So I got the glory of the head. All pitches in the sun, like first sunlight. I took off my shirt. It's like pretty hot.

01:00:27:26 - 01:00:40:23
Brent
And there's just like two in this overhung boat ladder at the top. Looking across the wall, I was like taking moments to like, take in what I was doing that wasn't just racing the clock like, wow, this is ridiculous.

01:00:40:25 - 01:00:45:05
Kyle
Yeah, I just we just did the nose, like two weeks

01:00:45:12 - 01:00:46:11
Brent
How cool I

01:00:46:11 - 01:00:47:22
Kyle
It was my first time ever going up it.

01:00:47:22 - 01:00:48:25
Brent
nice

01:00:48:28 - 01:01:01:07
Kyle
over. We, like, fixed the sickle right back down, hauled our bags right back down. Slept in the car, woke up the next day. There were two other parties. We let them go. Started sickle at like one.

01:01:01:13 - 01:01:18:00
Kyle
Got to dolt, then from dolt to camp for and then camp forward to the top. But we. I unfortunately led the last to headwall pitches in the dark and so I didn't get to see the exposure. I think the last like spic of exposure we had was like a pitch or two after changing corners.

01:01:18:00 - 01:01:44:04
Brent
Oh man. Yeah. It's kind of anti-climatic if I. Yeah, I'm leaving some contrarian nuggets along the way, but I think one of them is when I'm doing that in a day, I'll cap things that are often like 18 to 20 hours. I like to start like at sunset, the first shade, climb through the night down low and then get the second wind and glory of morning light at the top.

01:01:44:06 - 01:01:57:05
Brent
Yeah, which is probably worst from a sleep standpoint, because you like pretend to nap during the day right before, but you're probably not sleeping very well before your big day anyways. Yeah. Was that formative for you if you.

01:01:57:07 - 01:02:21:25
Kyle
Yeah. No. So I describe it like it changed what the word climbing means to me, primarily because I'm like a I'm a free climber. I love free climbing. I love the movement of free climbing. And that was like my first real aid climb. And so just like it, the whole thing felt like an adult jungle gym. Like the swinging around, the standing in ladders, the pulling on gear.

01:02:21:25 - 01:02:48:19
Kyle
It's like it. It didn't even feel like climbing to me. It was like it was something entirely different. And so yeah, the whole experience, like it was like four full days of like effort and it just all felt like one, one day, one experience. But we're going back in October. For Nyad, that was like the main goal was to to because my buddy Brice had done it before two years ago.

01:02:48:20 - 01:02:52:04
Kyle
And so it was our turn to do it together. And then we're going to go back in October and do

01:02:52:07 - 01:02:54:04
Brent
What time are you going to start?

01:02:54:06 - 01:03:08:00
Kyle
I don't know, you just peaked it in interest. And I think that'll also keep you from running into other Nyad parties. It'll keep you from running into like a nose in a day parties or sorry, nose parties that are actually like, moving.

01:03:08:01 - 01:03:20:06
Kyle
Because that was a big thing. We I think three Nyad parties passed us on the King swing, and there were other two to like nose aid parties above us. And so it was just a huge logjam so that that tactic would completely remove

01:03:20:09 - 01:03:30:20
Brent
Yeah. Sort of think about it is harder for sleeping because you're up for like 36 to 48 hours, but it's kind of what you're signing up for regardless.

01:03:30:23 - 01:03:30:28
Brent
I

01:03:30:29 - 01:03:39:07
Kyle
wonder like where could you sleep during the day? Like stay at the Oni and just, like, black out the curtains and take a sleeping pill?

01:03:39:09 - 01:03:43:22
Brent
yeah. Yeah, there's probably a play there somewhere.

01:03:43:24 - 01:03:52:13
Kyle
So one thing you said. So about this one you kept, you kind of said, I guess I'll link this other quote that you have about like, performance.

01:03:52:17 - 01:04:18:24
Kyle
Like the coolest aspect of climbing to me is the improbability of it all. Whether it's improbable moves, improbable positions like expand on this, this for me, like this was a part of the nose experience for you. I think a lot of people will like you, like how do you function when you're doing something that feels impossible or improbable?

01:04:18:24 - 01:04:37:26
Kyle
I think that like, where does your mind go? How are you processing the uncertainty and that that cliff of just like, I don't know how this is going to go because I think a lot of people, I would imagine kind of stop there, you know, because I only did the nose because I knew it was possible, like my buddy Bryce had done it.

01:04:37:28 - 01:04:48:13
Kyle
You know, I'm not stepping off into this void of like, I have no idea what's going to happen. I mean, to a sense, but not to the extreme. Where does your mind go on those things, and why do you crave that experience so much?

01:04:48:13 - 01:05:08:19
Brent
Yeah, I think I think I just like the puzzle aspect of like I mentioned, it feels like something that we shouldn't be capable of as our human bodies that are actually not that great at climbing, but with our minds and solving these puzzles, like the solo need is not just about toiling and suffering and making your way to the top.

01:05:08:19 - 01:05:32:10
Brent
It's about toiling at the correct task and making sure that you're making progress. And yeah, it's it's all in the puzzle a bit for me. And that comes down to like the improbability of solving first ascent sequences or even just a project that exists, solving it for yourself. As I think performance in the mental puzzle is really heavily tied for me.

01:05:32:12 - 01:05:45:08
Brent
And I think the probability word, and probably points out both of those of like some of it's crimping harder, which is all the rage. Some of it's just like thinking outside of the box and being creative.

01:05:45:11 - 01:05:46:01
Brent
Logistics.

01:05:46:05 - 01:05:53:05
Brent
Yeah, logistics or sequences or gear. Yeah. I kind of like ties it all together for me.

01:05:53:07 - 01:06:13:14
Kyle
Yeah. One of the things I loved about The Nose was like just how important efficiency was. It's just like every second you waste is just adds up faster and faster. And I, I, I live my life just like always trying to find efficient systems and like, how can I get this task done the quickest but still have the same pause, like good result.

01:06:13:20 - 01:06:16:11
Kyle
And that was like such an Episcopal thing on the nose.

01:06:16:13 - 01:06:45:29
Brent
Yeah. It's fun. It's like time is super obvious one. But then also energy is like, you really do have a limited amount of energy up there. So like if you're hauling a bag or like moving anchors around, making sure you're at like a good ergonomic position makes a big difference. If you do that 30 times well versus like one bad haul set up or awkward anchor and you like waste a bunch of effort fighting that it can really like derail and snowball the rest of your ascent.

01:06:46:02 - 01:07:04:01
Brent
So yeah, I really I really like the puzzle of, yeah, thinking of it holistically and thinking beyond what the, the status quo is. And not just like in innovating carabiners and ropes. I'm just like, oh, you did this thing this way you can do it better. Different, whatever.

01:07:04:04 - 01:07:07:01
Brent
like like, yeah,

01:07:07:04 - 01:07:07:10
Kyle
Yeah.

01:07:07:13 - 01:07:09:26
Brent
I'm a schemer

01:07:09:29 - 01:07:38:00
Kyle
Yeah. One thing. This is, I guess just like a personal question in terms of my own processes. But when I was. So this was the first time I was ever hauling I. Some people are just like pulling the slack out of the green like this. Hated that. I thought it was the worst thing ever because like your shoulders getting tired, I redirect the line through just a carabiner and I pull the slack like 2 to 1 through that.

01:07:38:00 - 01:07:38:24
Kyle
And then

01:07:38:27 - 01:07:56:19
Kyle
I found that to be so easy and I could just, like, pull it because I'm pulling the same amount, but my pulling the slack in is easier. And so I'm like pulling my hips and my body closer to the wall with two hands rather than one. And I'm also pulling in the slack simultaneously. Is that something that you've seen done before?

01:07:56:19 - 01:08:16:17
Brent
Yeah, that's spot on. That's like exactly the the like being vigilant of like this needs to feel like one motion. You're like, oh that didn't feel good. And being really picky of like, sure you can do that once. But like doing that hundreds of times while you're hauling like this is going to be a waste of effort and being vigilant.

01:08:16:17 - 01:08:38:17
Brent
That's like a perfect mindset of like pause, like, let's think about this. Let's do it slightly different. How can we fix this? And it might seem slower to be thoughtful and critical, make changes. But then, yeah, let's say do you have so much time on the offense just by having fresher arms for the climbing itself, for judging, whatever.

01:08:38:19 - 01:08:39:27
Kyle
Yeah. Okay. Cool.

01:08:39:29 - 01:08:40:09
Brent
yeah.

01:08:40:16 - 01:08:42:04
Kyle
buddy Bryce is like this. No, how you do it? I'm

01:08:42:06 - 01:08:43:07
Brent
That's how you do it.

01:08:43:09 - 01:08:43:17
Kyle
to do

01:08:43:22 - 01:08:44:19
Brent
Yeah,

01:08:44:22 - 01:09:20:03
Brent
totally. I do a foot hauling set up. I don't I don't 1 to 1 haul my bags very often. I tend to go like day style with like a little tech bag or like stupidly heavy 2 to 1 eight day ascents tend towards the extremes, but while foot hauling, I do a similar thing where it's like a make your traction redirected down to a second micro traction with a foot loop, but then I redirect back up to a just a carabiner to make the resetting this the free side of the tag line, and you're resetting it for the same way you're talking about and having it right here versus

01:09:20:03 - 01:09:26:18
Brent
like down here or upwards. It's like the exact same ergonomics. So yeah. Props.

01:09:26:21 - 01:09:48:15
Brent
Yeah. The free ordering on day one also is interesting from systems. Kind of gets into like professional climbing and style and this and that. But in a day I'll keep a sense to me was always, you're walking up with all your supplies like the, the Nihad Standard and you start at the bottom, you climb to the top, you get off and you're done.

01:09:48:17 - 01:10:15:12
Brent
And the professional, the professional climber in a day free ascent is often I prepared for a week even like did the route almost all the way, rappelled whatever, and then even left stuff on the route prepared and stashed whatever. And then, did my little one day cohesive read point? But it wasn't like a one day effort.

01:10:15:15 - 01:10:41:24
Brent
And that was one in my mind from, like, I think there's a cool style here, which some people have done this, but the list is small and no one talks about it. Of two partners walking up to the base and free climbing El Cap in a day, just like you would go up to Red rocks and like, climb a multi-year route like you walk up ropes, gear, water, start the bottom, climb the top, send hopefully, and then walk off and you're done.

01:10:41:24 - 01:11:11:20
Brent
And that was like you're in a day effort. Which I had been on the route. Amity and my partner Amity Warm had been on the route and but we didn't rappelling. We didn't do anything as unsupported as I like to call, call it. And I think one of the, one of the places in the community I try to hold as being like, a little bit contrarian, a little bit poking at the current standard, dangers, one of them, another ones just like precision of vocabulary.

01:11:11:22 - 01:11:24:24
Brent
And yeah, that one's meaningful to me because I it wasn't to prove a point, but in my mind I saw this like vision of what would it look like if you just, like, went multipage climbing with all your annoying stuff? And yes, like

01:11:24:27 - 01:11:34:09
Brent
is the hard way and it's like less flowy, but it's the reality of like, what the every person's climbing experience looks like.

01:11:34:11 - 01:11:59:20
Brent
It's not the professional climber having a paid. Yeah time. And then also resources like often they get support has somebody jogging behind them. So they're just only climbing, which is an amazing athletic feat. But it does. It's kind of like abstracted from this normal every person's multi pitch climbing experience. So I thought that one was a really interesting ascent.

01:11:59:23 - 01:12:07:18
Kyle
Now that's like ground up. That's like where you kind of interject that word to describe that. And also so I want to

01:12:07:24 - 01:12:10:07
Brent
Yeah. Speaking of precision of vocabulary.

01:12:10:09 - 01:12:20:10
Kyle
Exactly. So, so I think this is part of one of my questions. So a lot of your major ascents have like this ground up tag to it. I've heard some people call this an ethic.

01:12:20:13 - 01:12:29:03
Kyle
I've heard some people call it a style, and I've heard other people just like.

01:12:29:06 - 01:12:37:19
Kyle
My vocabulary is missing here, but like, passionately fight. The fact that it's called an ethic, like ground up is not an ethic, you

01:12:37:22 - 01:12:42:28
Kyle
where do you stand on what this word means to you? And yeah, ethic, style.

01:12:43:00 - 01:12:59:08
Brent
Yeah, exactly. I have some good thoughts here. And I feel like as a community we're like zeroing in on something where, kind of person talks about this a lot. His dad apparently has held the standard for a long time, in this big wall free climbing world. But style is what you do in terms of your own climbing

01:12:59:08 - 01:13:06:17
Brent
in your decisions for performance and ethics are how you affect other parties.

01:13:06:19 - 01:13:24:24
Brent
So style is like, did I use this stance to break up this pitch? Did I place the gear or not? And the party below you, the party above you? They don't care. Like whatever. Like you're just having your little isolated experience. But, what standard do you hold yourself to for the performance?

01:13:24:25 - 01:13:25:16
Brent
Free climbing

01:13:25:23 - 01:13:29:05
Kyle
And it describes the way you approach the

01:13:29:08 - 01:13:30:01
Brent
Yeah.

01:13:30:04 - 01:13:40:03
Brent
So style is like very performance oriented. But super valuable and holding ourselves to a high standard as a community and evolving standard as professional.

01:13:40:03 - 01:13:40:18
Brent
Climbers,

01:13:40:25 - 01:13:54:00
Kyle
and also being descriptive about like, because there's so many nuances on how you can approach an objective. And so being clear about your style is good because it's like, oh, well, this person did it in this style and this person did it in that style. There are two different ways to approach the

01:13:54:02 - 01:14:17:22
Brent
Yeah, exactly. And it's lost in our short form media world where it's like a sent green checkmark. And in the blog format where you like, give your trip report. It's kind of a moot point. You like write paragraphs and paragraphs and people like, okay, I get the style, sarcasm, and then there's room for evolution. Ethics. How did you affect other parties?

01:14:17:25 - 01:14:41:15
Brent
So I, I try to push this amp kind of a play on like leave no trace of like, what's the acronym of what we're trying to do up there in terms of ethics and affect minimal parties. So using that framework you can think about something like a fixed rope leaving a fixed rope on a new root project that you are bolting affects no one else.

01:14:41:18 - 01:15:10:17
Brent
Like maybe visually there's some, consideration of is it? Yeah. Is it visible? Is it going to hurt somebody if it's left for too long? Whatever. You can do the back of the envelope calculation of how many other people may affecting with this decision where rappelling in to work changing corners. Or we should talk about free rider because that's the the popular version rappelling in to go try the boulder problem.

01:15:10:20 - 01:15:25:24
Brent
Yeah. It's interesting case study even repelling into try the boulder problem, leaving a trail of fixed lines for the top third of El Cap versus rappelling in following your rope passing people kind of annoying them because it is the knowing where to I

01:15:25:27 - 01:15:33:25
Brent
bugging them as you go past for like five minutes, but then they're unaffected otherwise versus just starting ground up.

01:15:33:27 - 01:15:58:23
Brent
Those are like huge differences. And how much are you affecting these other parties? So it isn't to me, it's not like ground up or bust. It's use just like do some back of the envelope math. And how many climber hours may affecting for my personal ascent. And I think that you have a every every person's podcast here. And I think that's something that is celebrated in professional climbing.

01:15:58:23 - 01:16:22:05
Brent
That's like so different than just like how we go climbing as normal people is for the professional climbers. They can take a view that their sense is more important, string up line of ropes on the root claim. It's their root for the season. Do these like pretty extreme things to to like do the athletic achievement, but at the cost of other random people.

01:16:22:07 - 01:16:44:12
Brent
And I think these days, especially, the level is just so high in your Yosemite myopic bubble, you think, you know every person that has plans to try a certain route, but these days, like some rando in Salt Lake and his cubicle might be coming out to try this cool hard 513 multi pitch route and you have no idea.

01:16:44:15 - 01:17:06:02
Brent
And I think we should all carry that feeling of like levels really high, and we should be holding ourselves to a really high standard as well of maintaining the resources for other people. So ground up wrap in are like two sides of it that can be pretty extreme. And Ground up was used for a documentary film title that was part of.

01:17:06:05 - 01:17:18:13
Brent
And I don't even like those distinctions as much as like, let's just think about it of like contextually, does it make sense or not? And the amp like back of the envelope calculation is how I think about it.

01:17:18:15 - 01:17:19:01
Kyle
now.

01:17:19:02 - 01:17:32:11
Kyle
You're like like you said like ground up, top down doesn't really matter. It's more of like everybody else's, everybody else's experience on the climb, you could wrap in and fix lines on a root and work on it. If there's no one there, then there's no ethical

01:17:32:13 - 01:17:37:13
Brent
Yeah, exactly. And.

01:17:37:15 - 01:17:54:24
Brent
And no one there that day versus like, assuming no one's going to be there that week or that month, that's where it can go wrong. And thinking, you know, everybody that's a planning to do that route. And yeah, I have I make a living now on telling people about Top Rope soloing a little bit about leadership, selling.

01:17:54:26 - 01:18:13:28
Brent
But I think I hold myself to a pretty strong ethic where I don't leave ropes up overnight in people's away. Like, you know, it's time. There may be some cases where I go wrong, of course. But I try to hold myself to that standard of like, you can go top rope soloing. You can go work your projects again.

01:18:13:28 - 01:18:36:26
Brent
Just like thinking outside the box. The big picture of like, how do we just not leave things in people's way and still achieve this objective of practicing our route? So I think the framework is even more interesting than the labels of style have ground up or not, and even the ground up film, to be honest, we use fixed lines for the bottom part.

01:18:36:28 - 01:19:00:06
Brent
They weren't ours, but we like kind of inherited being part of this little fixed line circus where a little bit part of the problem and even some of the hard pitches we'd pull out stick clips to like get up some, some weirdness. So it's like nuanced and movie magic washes over all that. And I don't like the ground up label, but we try to be collaborative with other people working the root that season.

01:19:00:06 - 01:19:22:12
Brent
And there are other people on it, and we had a bit of a scene. We tried to communicate. We did do the little bit. We did do a little bit of that thing of like, we think we know everyone trying this route, but yeah, so that's how I look at it. And those experiences even make me more strongly in the camp of like, let's not assume we know everyone that's trying this route.

01:19:22:14 - 01:19:32:08
Brent
Let's clean our stuff. Let's get out of the way, have our experience, but like really try to affect minimal other cleaning parties.

01:19:32:11 - 01:19:49:04
Kyle
How do you see the ethics style debate or discussion translating to like first ascents and bolting? Because I feel like that's like a lot of the heat. It's like because you're saying ethics, how does it affect minimal people

01:19:49:07 - 01:19:56:21
Kyle
bolting around? It's like you're affecting the people who come to climb your route after you've done it as a route developer yourself.

01:19:56:23 - 01:20:00:14
Kyle
Like, how do you see the words ethics and styles translating to root

01:20:00:16 - 01:20:27:28
Brent
Yeah, I find it interesting in terms of dangerous trad times, for sure. Of like. Like, are you affecting effecting the community more by creating this really dangerous route that no one's going to climb but is inspirational. But maybe some day somebody might get hurt on it. Like that has this place in climbing that we celebrate. But then if you add one bolt or a few bolts and make it exciting but safe, or if it's just sport, climb, those are like very different experiences.

01:20:28:01 - 01:20:45:24
Brent
And I think there's a place for all those. It comes down to user design of like, who are you as a root developer? How do you present it to the world? It's really important of like some obscure thing with no information that's dangerous. That's like a time bomb to lure people in. I think is like, not that cool.

01:20:45:26 - 01:20:46:19
Brent
But

01:20:46:21 - 01:20:51:05
Kyle
if it's going to be dangerous and that test piece, label it as such and be loud about

01:20:51:08 - 01:20:51:21
Brent
Yeah.

01:20:51:22 - 01:21:05:00
Brent
Now you a lot about your accomplishment. But like clear. Yeah. Clarity of this is what it is. Here's how you here's how I approached it. To do it safely is like a reasonable thing to put out.

01:21:05:02 - 01:21:05:19
Kyle
And

01:21:05:21 - 01:21:06:15
Brent
Yeah.

01:21:06:18 - 01:21:07:04
Kyle
yeah,

01:21:07:07 - 01:21:13:09
Kyle
Give people a story to, like, latch on to rather than it just being like, this thing is fucked. Like, why is this even here?

01:21:13:17 - 01:21:34:28
Brent
Yeah, exactly. Totally. Like be clear of how you approached it. Kind of even back to the like, being clear about your style is I also think there's this pro climber thing to, like, get your achievement and not build up the next tier of climbers you don't like. Share how you did it, you didn't share how you thought about it, and sometimes you don't even share the beta for your new route.

01:21:35:00 - 01:21:48:02
Brent
And I think that's really lame of like if you are a professional climber leading by example, as climbing is part of your career. Like, how do you leave the community better off for what you did.

01:21:48:05 - 01:21:50:08
Kyle
Rather than your own grant self-organization

01:21:50:11 - 01:21:52:01
Brent
Yeah. What I did.

01:21:52:03 - 01:21:58:03
Brent
Yeah. It's like, share the share the topo. Put it out there somewhere. Like, get a get a mountain project account. Like,

01:21:58:05 - 01:22:02:23
Brent
don't need to, like, ruin the experience, but, like, tee up a little bit of, like, hey, here's how I approached it.

01:22:02:26 - 01:22:05:18
Brent
This work, this didn't.

01:22:05:20 - 01:22:08:00
Kyle
yeah. Help all of us learn a little

01:22:08:07 - 01:22:12:12
Brent
Yeah. You get me fired up.

01:22:12:14 - 01:22:13:02
Kyle
I love

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01:23:14:05 - 01:23:15:23
Kyle
Let's talk about ecstasy.

01:23:15:26 - 01:23:22:22
Kyle
What is on site threshold climbing? I've heard of on site climbing before. I love on site

01:23:22:27 - 01:23:23:23
Brent
Where'd you get the threshold?

01:23:23:23 - 01:23:24:02
Brent
Where

01:23:24:07 - 01:23:27:16
Kyle
That was. You used it in nuggets podcast

01:23:27:16 - 01:23:28:16
Brent
nice.

01:23:28:18 - 01:23:39:01
Kyle
in describing like a a style of climbing that you enjoy. I love on site climbing. It's like why I climb. Like I have never projected a route before.

01:23:39:03 - 01:23:44:13
Kyle
My on site grade and my redpoint grade are like the same. And so I mean.

01:23:44:16 - 01:23:46:05
Brent
It sounds like you're doing it then. Yeah.

01:23:46:05 - 01:23:47:15
Kyle


01:23:47:17 - 01:23:57:28
Kyle
And so yeah, so I resonate with this, this topic and this philosophy of climbing or approach to climbing. And so yeah, what is what is on site threshold climbing mean to

01:23:58:00 - 01:23:58:09
Brent
Yeah.

01:23:58:15 - 01:24:13:01
Brent
It means climbing really close to the limit of where you may or may not fall on a route, hopefully pulling it off, but doing it first try. So on siding versus slashing even that's like maybe muddy these days

01:24:13:04 - 01:24:28:16
Brent
on siding is like very minimal information about the route. To me, the threshold is I looked at the guidebook, I might have thought a still photo, but I have like a guidebook description of what the route is like and what to bring, but I haven't seen anybody on it.

01:24:28:18 - 01:24:37:11
Brent
I haven't played anybody on it, and I haven't, like rappelled past it next door. I have like, it's I can view it from below. Yeah.

01:24:37:17 - 01:24:38:26
Brent
Maybe so.

01:24:39:00 - 01:24:43:17
Kyle
on site. I mean, I think that if you break down that word, it's literally like a porn site

01:24:43:20 - 01:24:45:00
Brent
Yes, exactly, exactly.

01:24:45:07 - 01:24:45:26
Kyle
can look at

01:24:45:26 - 01:24:46:20
Brent
on first site,

01:24:46:20 - 01:24:56:22
Kyle
want on first sight. Yeah. You can look at it as much as you want. You should know what to bring to do it safely. Outside of that, that's as much information as you

01:24:56:28 - 01:25:23:12
Brent
Yeah. Which I think is the real test of how skillful are you as a climber. Where to be a little bit pointed. I feel like like the end of day thing. Like sometimes I jokingly referred to it as like, okay, that's like the party trick. Like, you did all this stuff to do the party trick, red. But even sometimes, if you spent months and months, there's like, the improbabilities gone and like, it feels like you have to just perform the party trick, and I do that.

01:25:23:14 - 01:25:58:19
Brent
I love that game. As well. But it does can start feeling like a game where the, the, yeah, the like true test of climbing mastery to me is in onsite climbing and feels like Adam Ondra is the one that's pushing this thought. Still where most other people, it's kind of fallen by the wayside. And I think it's especially relevant for trad climbing and pitch climbing, because historically you didn't had point the route you didn't like project the multi pitch for these days like sure.

01:25:58:20 - 01:26:18:03
Brent
And that's maybe more of the standard. But like if you get a red rock you want to climb Cloud Tower for your first thing, you're probably climbing on site, ground up like that's just like normal climbing. So again, like what professional climbing feats are, are like quite detached from how most people just go rock climbing as the average person.

01:26:18:06 - 01:26:31:15
Brent
And I think onsite climbing is like an interesting version of what a professional climbers achieve if they just take the every person's approach of like just normal rock climbing.

01:26:31:17 - 01:26:36:14
Kyle
Yeah I think.

01:26:36:16 - 01:26:36:23
Kyle
Oh

01:26:36:23 - 01:26:52:03
Kyle
I would imagine you have to practice red pointing really hard grades to increase your on site threshold at least to a nominal amount. Like there's a reason why I'm stuck at 11. Plus, it's because I'm not, like projecting in red pointing harder grades.

01:26:52:06 - 01:27:12:16
Kyle
I think that to a certain point, only trying to on site threshold climb, you're going to reach some sort of ceiling, whether it's like a physical fitness ceiling or it's just time on rock ceiling or a movement, finger strength ceiling, whatever it is, you're going to have to do some training and some practice above your onsite grade to be able to push that.

01:27:12:18 - 01:27:26:11
Brent
Yeah, I think an interesting combo. If you were like an onsite trad climber and a boulder you like probably could bump up your on, say grade because your movement library, your confidence of feeling a sensation of difficulty and just charging forward. It would be there.

01:27:26:17 - 01:27:28:19
Brent
Feel like boulder and trad climbing pair really well together.

01:27:28:22 - 01:27:33:26
Kyle
you said that recently. Actually. I was like, wow, I resonate with that a lot. It's a bunch of boulder moves put between stances.

01:27:34:03 - 01:27:35:15
Kyle
And I was like, that's so true.

01:27:35:21 - 01:27:52:01
Kyle
that was one of the coolest things about tried climbing that I found was like, it's really rare to come across like a super sustained, like 40 meter pitch of just like 511 plus, you know, it's usually like a move or two and you're like, and it's usually protected by a bolt.

01:27:52:04 - 01:27:54:25
Kyle
And then you get to a stance, you're like, wow, like this is

01:27:54:28 - 01:28:25:02
Brent
Yeah, it's definitely area by area specific. Like maybe the splitter cracks. You get like the enduro factor. But in northern Arizona especially, the harder the trad route was, the shorter the crux, where it would be like some extreme examples 11 plus to like AV9 to like five, ten. And it's like you like are at a stance maybe like slightly strenuous but like a 512 position, place some gear and then you do a boulder problem and like that's hard trad climbing often.

01:28:25:05 - 01:28:32:12
Brent
Maybe not hard crack climbing, but yeah, most trad climbing tends to feel bo3.

01:28:32:14 - 01:28:39:05
Kyle
That's cool. You I guess expanding on this topic a little bit.

01:28:39:08 - 01:28:39:13
Brent
we.

01:28:39:20 - 01:28:40:17
Brent
Went off the onsite,

01:28:40:24 - 01:28:41:29
Kyle
No, I love it, I love

01:28:41:29 - 01:28:42:23
Brent
Tangent

01:28:42:25 - 01:29:05:10
Kyle
You had talked about like how climbing content is like all about the red pointing. That's kind of like the focus of a lot of the professional athletes these days. Do you think that's like just what people like to do, or is that kind of influenced by, like, what is cherished and valued by the media, by community, by being recognized?

01:29:05:12 - 01:29:08:13
Kyle
What is that like? Why do you think on citing gets less

01:29:08:15 - 01:29:33:20
Brent
Yeah. Without getting too much of a community critique. Like, my gut reaction is that the numbers are just smaller. Like, no one cares about eight a, 13 b. Let's say that I say that in jest of like the levels 15 plus like 13 B means nothing. In your like little snippet, whatever caption, whatever. Yeah. I just watched the mellow film tour.

01:29:33:22 - 01:29:43:28
Brent
And it was like projecting really great films. And it left me a feeling of like, it's beating your head against a project. All of rock climbing is. I feel like

01:29:44:00 - 01:29:45:18
Kyle
It wouldn't if it was, I wouldn't be a

01:29:45:24 - 01:30:06:23
Brent
Yeah. So yeah, I think most climbers are realize that if, like me, they don't call it on citing that, they just call it going rock climbing of like, yeah, you just like pick a route and try it and hopefully have success. And yeah, I hope that's not lost in professional climbing. And I think the that on things like the.

01:30:06:25 - 01:30:09:06
Brent
Yeah the closest connection point there.

01:30:09:08 - 01:30:32:15
Kyle
We in our meet and greet we talked about the pillars like performance, adventure, spirituality and partnerships. To me, the reason why I love on setting so much is because it it like the word adventure is like built into it. But you had put that as one of your last, like last things. But you you love on sighting. So if it's not the adventure element of on sighting like what is it.

01:30:32:19 - 01:30:40:06
Brent
Yeah. You can break your format here. I don't know if I related to any of those words super strongly. I even wrote my own for,

01:30:40:09 - 01:30:40:18
Kyle
Well, yeah.

01:30:40:18 - 01:30:41:14
Kyle
What are

01:30:41:16 - 01:30:43:09
Brent
I think performance is good.

01:30:43:12 - 01:30:46:29
Brent
I do jokingly call myself a performance rock climber,

01:30:47:02 - 01:30:58:08
Brent
of picking at myself because I can find myself resting, like, over resting. Like I gotta be fresh for the next good day of climbing.

01:30:58:10 - 01:31:03:21
Brent
But performance. I would even loop in puzzles. So I wrote down four words just to kind of poke at you.

01:31:03:23 - 01:31:03:29
Kyle
love

01:31:04:04 - 01:31:08:04
Brent
Puzzles, community, solitude, and toil.

01:31:08:06 - 01:31:10:10
Kyle
Toil.

01:31:10:12 - 01:31:32:26
Brent
Which, yeah, I think performance. I do like the physicality of climbing. The like, feeling strong, feeling fit. But to me, the puzzle, the puzzle of the better, the puzzle, the gear. Like, honestly, puzzling is like the primary driver in climbing for me. And it plays a way more into I would describe myself as a maker, a tinkerer.

01:31:32:28 - 01:31:54:22
Brent
Primary over like climbing. It's a puzzling. Yeah, we haven't even gotten into lead soloing, but partnership kind of comes into play. But for me, it's community. It's not just about you and your partner against the world and against the party in front of you. How do you pass them? Like we're taking on this together. That's like that's a beautiful community we have here.

01:31:54:24 - 01:32:20:05
Brent
And even lead soloing has like a really strong collaborative community around it. Solitude. Clearly it's the the rope solo person. I enjoy the solitude. I think for me, that's like a big part of the spiritual aspect is just like being in nature and enjoying the peace and quiet and getting out of our day to day intensity. And then toil.

01:32:20:05 - 01:32:32:09
Brent
Yeah. Adventure. Maybe I just I've been in it too long. If like the adventure where it feels a little overplayed and have, like type two for an adventure, this is not like, yeah, it's facing the unknown, the improbability.

01:32:32:16 - 01:32:34:16
Kyle
Yeah. I think it's like the word novelty.

01:32:34:16 - 01:32:40:07
Brent
Yeah. Which is like I separate them like, puzzling and toiling as, like, maybe those together mean adventure.

01:32:40:10 - 01:32:41:19
Kyle
you describe toil.

01:32:41:19 - 01:32:42:04
Kyle
What's toil.

01:32:42:04 - 01:32:45:29
Brent
of just the, the physicality of doing something hard. Just like.

01:32:46:02 - 01:32:46:29
Kyle
The element of suffering.

01:32:46:29 - 01:33:03:29
Brent
Yeah. I'm just like, we're we're out doing the thing where using our bodies, we feel exhausted afterwards. The sense of satisfaction of using our bodies. Well, which doesn't necessarily performance. It's like yeah, the afterwards of like we did a thing that was pretty hard.

01:33:04:01 - 01:33:07:16
Kyle
Yeah. If so, I love I love the fact that you

01:33:07:16 - 01:33:09:18
Brent
I'll still play your game and talk about those words.

01:33:09:20 - 01:33:26:07
Kyle
I think that what this has done is actually kind of like potentially reframed how I approach this, which I love because I hate one thing that I try not to do in this podcast, and I'm guilty of it sometimes, is like putting people in my box or putting people in a box.

01:33:26:07 - 01:33:48:17
Kyle
And my, my goal there isn't to put you in my box and like, force you into it. It's more just trying to like that's how my brain works. And so I'm trying to get like to have a conversation about like certain topics and like the only way I can see it at least, is through my lens. But the way you've brought this up, like, if I were to have asked you on the show, describe why you climb in four words.

01:33:48:20 - 01:33:53:00
Kyle
Do you think you could have come up that on the spot, or did it take you time to to come up with that?

01:33:53:03 - 01:34:16:01
Brent
I think I could have came up with like 2 or 3 of the words, the puzzling in community. Like, if I were to say why rock climbing appeals to me. It's like the puzzle and the community. Community is really giving me everything in my current life. That's really impressive. Feel like I just moved out of state, showed up this new place, and I'm once removed at most from literally everyone in the climbing community.

01:34:16:03 - 01:34:35:01
Brent
And it's just like such a warm welcome, so easy to be enmeshed in a community. And same feeling of going to the valley every fall as like I show up there, and especially when I was living in Flagstaff, a smaller mountain town, I would go to Yosemite and I'd have like almost this urban experience of lots of people around the park.

01:34:35:04 - 01:34:43:18
Brent
But I think I know more people in Yosemite than I did in Flagstaff, and it's just like a really impressive feeling of community.

01:34:43:24 - 01:34:59:14
Kyle
Do you think that's unique to your situation, or do you think because I feel like there are some people who struggle with that community aspect to it, or they feel isolated, and I feel like some people might choose rope soloing because they don't. They can't find partners. They don't feel like they have a sense of community. Do you think that's personality?

01:34:59:16 - 01:35:02:00
Kyle
Do you think that's location, the inability to travel,

01:35:02:03 - 01:35:32:10
Brent
Yeah, my answer would have been location, location matching personality of like in Salt Lake City. The mega gyms. I don't think I made nearly as many friends as these, like smaller communities. Yeah. Flagstaff and now Tahoe. Reno where I'm bouncing around. They feel very approachable, like I'm introverted, outgoing at times, friendly, but definitely towards the quieter side and having a space that matches that.

01:35:32:10 - 01:35:58:15
Brent
And honestly, these days it's like gym choice. So even in a bigger city, there's like the mega gyms and maybe there's like a more intimate training gym. And that's kind of what these mountain communities provide is like only the intimate gym. So yeah, that and then out of the crag, there's probably a level of like competency and confidence that I've built over time that makes me feel really comfortable at the sport crags.

01:35:58:17 - 01:36:22:10
Brent
Or if you're newer, you might just like, be on edge and not know how the program works. But yeah, then even Craig Joyce. So like choosing Maple pipe Dream cave versus like I'm seeing Salt Lake examples versus like going up to Green Gully where you're like kind of in this like social corridor, but you're trying different routes and it's not like throwing elbows, elbows to get on a route.

01:36:22:12 - 01:36:35:00
Brent
Yeah, there's just some real time rambles, but, yeah, I think it's being strategic for sure. And like not putting yourself in a situation where you're setting you're not setting yourself up for failure.

01:36:35:02 - 01:36:37:07
Kyle
Yeah I went up to Robber's Roost recently up in

01:36:37:14 - 01:36:38:18
Brent
That's an extreme example.

01:36:38:25 - 01:36:41:05
Kyle
And I felt so

01:36:41:07 - 01:36:44:08
Brent
I feel uncomfortable there. That place stresses me out.

01:36:44:12 - 01:36:51:17
Kyle
Yeah. I was so uncomfortable. Like everyone knows each other and everyone's like, what are you getting on? And everyone's talking about climbing. And I'm just like, oh, man, I'm so out of my element

01:36:51:17 - 01:36:52:05
Brent
Yeah,

01:36:52:12 - 01:36:57:07
Kyle
I love just being with my partner or like, alone on Wilson. Like

01:36:57:10 - 01:36:57:21
Brent
Yeah,

01:36:57:27 - 01:37:01:21
Kyle
with no noise, no people. And so it's just a different experience.

01:37:01:21 - 01:37:06:08
Brent
But even if you, like, crossed another party on Wilson, you guys would probably connect to a need like

01:37:06:11 - 01:37:06:27
Kyle
Like, dude,

01:37:07:00 - 01:37:28:11
Brent
that's not. Yeah, maybe it's not the solitude there, but it's definitely a spectrum of climbing experiences for sure. And and I'm uncomfortable in my own version of. Yeah, echoes or crags or this or that. But I feel really I really celebrate community in the realm that I like or that suits me a better way to say it.

01:37:28:13 - 01:37:48:29
Kyle
That's awesome. Do you, do you feel like you create room? I don't ask this question because there's like there's a, there's a, a, there's like partaking in existing community and then there's creating one. Do you feel like you partake or create or a mix of both?

01:37:49:01 - 01:38:19:02
Brent
I think the user design aspect creates new possibility for community, where I am trying to create something new. And sometimes that creates a wave of people community following that approach. Yeah. It'd be hard to say that I don't create community. My time in Flagstaff, I created a community makerspace where I like, kind of took over this warehouse full of junky tools and built it into this thriving community of 250 members.

01:38:19:02 - 01:38:39:09
Brent
And like a really beautiful space as just like a random tangent outside of climbing. But I was executive director of this nonprofit makerspace, and I approached the with the user design lens of like build it and they will come make a machine, a business machine that works and it's going to last, but also make the space really compelling.

01:38:39:11 - 01:38:48:05
Brent
Yeah. So the user design aspect can invite other people in. That's how I would say it.

01:38:48:07 - 01:39:07:02
Kyle
yeah. It's it's important to do I don't know, it's it's not it's not easy to do to be able to use your skills and like, create a safe place for everybody else to enjoy the same thing. It's like, it's a it's a very, like a leadership kind of position to find yourself

01:39:07:04 - 01:39:36:06
Brent
Yeah. I just try to lead by example, but but I do feel like I see kind of things out of left field, out of the box fairly often. And once I see that possibility and, like, bugs me to not do something about it, and I say it like this is a very ambiguous way because I think it has carried through these like approaches in climbing through poking at you with different words of just like, yeah, trying to create a new possibility.

01:39:36:08 - 01:39:48:17
Brent
And then once I see that, I do feel like, oh, if I, if I enjoy this possibility, other people probably will too. And basically that attitude. Yeah. Very abstract. What is that.

01:39:48:17 - 01:39:48:21
Brent
But

01:39:48:25 - 01:39:50:12
Kyle
sparks good conversation as well.

01:39:50:15 - 01:40:12:00
Kyle
Let's be real for a second. The blueprint for a successful climbing podcast is simple. Interview the most famous climbers in the world. Big names mean big followings. Lots of SEO power and a built in audience that helps promote every episode. But this show, this show has never been about that. From the beginning, it has been my mission to bring you stories from the climbing majority.

01:40:12:00 - 01:40:30:27
Kyle
The climbers who don't live in the limelight, the ones who quietly put up roots, build communities and help give back in ways that are rarely recognized. And while that's what makes this show special, it also means we have an uphill battle when it comes to growth. And that is where you come in. If you believe in the show, if you've been fired up, inspired by an episode.

01:40:30:29 - 01:40:52:07
Kyle
Word of Mouth is the single most powerful way to help the show share an episode with a friend. Post about us on social media. Jump on to Reddit threads and Mountain project forums and tell people what you've been listening to. Also, I am on a mission to beat Climbing Gold Spotify review account. If you haven't already left the show a review, please head on over to Spotify to give this show five stars.

01:40:52:08 - 01:40:55:13
Kyle
We only have 1000 more ratings to go.

01:40:55:16 - 01:41:01:07
Kyle
So back to the origin of this like on site thing. We started

01:41:01:07 - 01:41:01:13
Brent
talking.

01:41:01:13 - 01:41:03:05
Brent
Oh, yeah. 20 minutes later.

01:41:03:07 - 01:41:19:09
Kyle
Yeah. Just I have climbed in Pine Creek, I've climbed Queen of Heartbreaks and Sheila right next to it. It's just the striking of red. You know, it's like such an obvious line, just, I guess, quickly walk through, like the history of the route itself.

01:41:19:11 - 01:41:24:15
Kyle
Had anybody on sighted it before? And then talk to me about your experience on this

01:41:24:18 - 01:41:26:11
Brent
Yeah.

01:41:26:13 - 01:41:49:16
Brent
So SDC looks like the corner of a concrete building. Like the outside corner. It's in a red. It's 13 b a granite route's sparsely bolted the sport route, but, like, punchy enough to keep you engaged. And you're grabbing this 90 degree ret, kind of laid back in the aret. And there's there appears to be zero holds when you stand at the base.

01:41:49:18 - 01:42:17:02
Brent
It's it's like 100ft tall, and it just is the most imposing route you can imagine to me. And, yeah, the like audacity to like, even try in the first place to kind of like that. Every man's like, I'm just going to give this a try and see what happens. Not just likes to clip up at first was like a big hurdle in my mind to even, like, give it a shot.

01:42:17:04 - 01:42:38:13
Brent
But that was March of 2020. Like immediately pre-COVID. Last bit of normalcy there, but I was on a Bishop trip. I'd been wanting to try this route. I'd spent enough time in Little Cottonwood that I thought, like, should at least give it a try. Ground up. There was no draws hanging on it. Often routes have some of these project trials.

01:42:38:15 - 01:43:06:14
Brent
Thank God there was no fixed line hanging on it because that could have blocked my whole experience, especially if the fixed line were through the draws. As like I couldn't have had this experience, which is, I think, a cool thing to point out. But as some sort like random climber. I showed up, tried it, and had this like amazing flow state, feeling of mastery, feeling of like in my own world.

01:43:06:17 - 01:43:29:07
Brent
And yeah, I did it first try. No, no talk on the route, no draws on the route. Just this like imposing crazy corner feature and yeah, kind of back in the the empowerment feeling like, wow, I've I've become the rock climber that I've always looked up to. It's like a big stepping up and yeah, it using my forwards like it.

01:43:29:10 - 01:43:51:01
Brent
The puzzling aspect was like the ultimate puzzle to me. On site climbing is like a real time puzzle. Puzzle solving, community as there was like a story to it of this route had been in my mind. I had heard people talking about it. I had heard who had done it in which ways. And there's like this sense of story, sense of community and being part of the community.

01:43:51:01 - 01:44:19:14
Brent
And my sense, I'm looking forward to speaking of time, solitude, solitude. I think on setting, I'm kind of an anti cheer person when I'm climbing. Not out of cheer and happiness, but out of like cheering and, people supporting from the ground. I really love being in the in the problem solving flow of the bubble, especially on side climbing like the.

01:44:19:16 - 01:44:21:06
Brent
Yeah. So.

01:44:21:09 - 01:44:23:08
Kyle
a super, super deep sense of flow.

01:44:23:08 - 01:44:23:19
Brent
yeah.

01:44:23:19 - 01:44:44:07
Brent
Had like my significant other. It's time close partner play me silent play not very many people around. And I was just like, in this insane sense of flow, and then toil is like, yeah, it's freaking hard. And afterwards I'm like, oh my God, my arms don't work. That was crazy. Yeah. So I think onset climbing really hits all of them for me.

01:44:44:09 - 01:45:01:14
Brent
And that's a meaningful asset because it before. Yeah. You asked who had done it. It was Alex Magus and Alex huddled had unsighted the route and obviously that's a list in the community that I look up to you. And then afterwards, Chris Sharma had done it and got some news blurbs around it, and I'm like, all right, okay.

01:45:01:19 - 01:45:25:07
Brent
These are the people I looked up to for my cubicle in Minnesota like five years before, seven years before. And it just feels good to be a part of the community. Yeah, to be frank, like a sense of relevance of, like, at the level and performance, but also at the level to have a voice and to try to shape the community into a way that I want climbing to be.

01:45:25:10 - 01:45:48:09
Kyle
Now, about that voice. You know, if it were me, you know, I would be posting my GoPro video of it, you know, like, you know, a bit of pat yourself on the back, I guess, but not like disgustingly. Did you have any self-promotion about that Assen, or was it just like, check it in Mountain Project and move on with my life and feel amazing?

01:45:48:11 - 01:46:11:03
Brent
I wrote a blog post about it. I think it might have been like a year later. Yeah. I my relevance in the climbing community has mostly come from making in creative aspects, not necessarily from performance. And I'm thankful for that. It was something I was really proud of and definitely told all my friends like, wow, I had this like, insane experience this weekend, this trip, whatever.

01:46:11:05 - 01:46:35:28
Brent
Yeah. So I'm not trying. I don't think the like, don't share the news angle. Is that cool either? Like, yeah, we should be proud of our accomplishments. So, yeah, tough line there where I haven't been on social media for years. I do like the the blog format and for all the style points we discussed for like the intimacy of sending a newsletter, it's kind of fun.

01:46:36:01 - 01:46:43:21
Brent
Yeah. And then Mountain Project I, I am super active in Mountain projects and I leave a trail of stars, but I don't tick,

01:46:43:23 - 01:46:44:10
Kyle
You don't take

01:46:44:14 - 01:46:45:00
Brent
Know.

01:46:45:07 - 01:46:45:15
Kyle
Oh.

01:46:45:15 - 01:46:52:06
Brent
I have a spreadsheet. Like I keep a log of what I have done, and it's meaningful to me to look back. I have record of it

01:46:52:09 - 01:46:54:05
Kyle
Is it because ticks are public?

01:46:54:09 - 01:46:55:06
Brent
Yeah, a little bit.

01:46:55:10 - 01:46:57:25
Kyle
Okay. I actually just found out that ticks are

01:46:57:28 - 01:46:59:04
Kyle
It was something I just found

01:46:59:07 - 01:47:01:13
Brent
hope you didn't write anything embarrassing.

01:47:01:16 - 01:47:08:15
Kyle
So the way I found out actually was there's a guy out here who has created an AI software that scans, ticks and comments for booty,

01:47:08:16 - 01:47:09:02
Brent
Oh,

01:47:09:08 - 01:47:11:04
Kyle
and he just gets a report every

01:47:11:06 - 01:47:11:15
Brent
Yeah.

01:47:11:15 - 01:47:14:16
Kyle
of like, all the routes and red rock that gear has been left on.

01:47:14:16 - 01:47:21:17
Kyle
And he's a software engineer, so he works two days a week or whatever. And so he'll just go out and he'll just booty hunt on gear. And he has

01:47:21:21 - 01:47:23:17
Brent
what's his name? Taylor.

01:47:23:20 - 01:47:24:18
Brent
Oh yeah, I know Taylor

01:47:24:23 - 01:47:25:13
Kyle
Okay.

01:47:25:17 - 01:47:26:09
Brent
checks out.

01:47:26:11 - 01:47:31:24
Kyle
Yeah. And so like I was like, he reached out to me. He's like, hey man, I saw you bailed on blah blah blah.

01:47:31:27 - 01:47:36:29
Kyle
How did you know that? And he's like, you're tick. I'm like, oh fuck. Those are public. So

01:47:36:29 - 01:47:38:14
Brent
yeah.

01:47:38:16 - 01:48:00:26
Brent
Yeah. There's part of me is like an introvert and solitude aspect for sure where like, it's a push and pull. I want to be relevant in the community in the sense of, yeah, having a voice, feeling supported, feeling celebrated, to be frank. And I enjoy my solitude and yeah, there's the tension there. And then my version that feels good is sharing blog posts occasionally.

01:48:00:28 - 01:48:11:26
Brent
But there's cool, random things that I've done that have no trace and partly circumstantial of like, oh, I'll write a blog post about this and then just don't.

01:48:12:01 - 01:48:13:15
Brent
Yeah,

01:48:13:17 - 01:48:21:23
Kyle
Yeah, I mean, there's, I guess apples to potatoes here, but there's, I mean, there's tons of climbs. I've done that I haven't filmed, you know, it's like you don't have to film

01:48:21:26 - 01:48:51:16
Brent
Yeah. Yeah, totally. But I've been YouTube videos of roots and I've like done the commercial side. So I'm not like anti that. And I watch those videos and they're inspiring. So I don't know. It's all contextual of like even down to like deciding this route. What experience do I want. And like enjoying the different sides of climbing and the extremes and like some some little secrets just for me and some dudes in the cool and being a little more.

01:48:51:19 - 01:48:56:15
Brent
Yeah. In your face about what you did. Yeah. I don't know. It's all nice.

01:48:56:17 - 01:49:09:21
Kyle
It's also like you said. What do you want to get out of it? What do you want to get of at each route. Like what are you passionate about? Like, you know, I'm a filmmaker. Bye bye bye. Career. And so, like, it's just a natural

01:49:09:24 - 01:49:10:02
Brent
Yeah.

01:49:10:02 - 01:49:26:13
Brent
It's like the way I bring making to my climbing. You're in filmmaking or filming and visuals and storytelling. Yeah, I think it's good. We all have our approaches. I think that's the fun part of climbing is hopefully we're still oddballs and not just like conformists.

01:49:26:16 - 01:49:28:04
Kyle


01:49:28:06 - 01:49:36:22
Kyle
You had said that there's only about 20 or 50 people in the world that actually make a salary from climbing, and you would categorize these people as professionals,

01:49:36:25 - 01:49:47:07
Kyle
and you put yourself in this tier of like elite climbing community by like your own definition, you're not a professional climber. Would you agree with

01:49:47:09 - 01:49:55:20
Brent
Yes. That was us riffing on the phone call. So I'm just like kind of like, hypothesizing.

01:49:55:23 - 01:50:12:03
Brent
But I think I have this place where I'm, I go climbing with these climbers that are making careers, making salaries and we're try and seeing objectives and sometimes they achieve it before I do. But I'm like close enough to the game to see what's going on.

01:50:12:05 - 01:50:25:26
Brent
But I've gotten some trips funded previously and then I get some free products. But yeah, as far as a professional climber, I try to approach it more like the every person's climber. So maybe I don't fit your podcast guest template.

01:50:25:27 - 01:50:26:01
Kyle
the

01:50:26:04 - 01:50:27:01
Brent
Yeah,

01:50:27:03 - 01:50:36:13
Brent
I, I try to just be a normal climber and how I'm going about it. And we talked about on sighting style and all these things do like just go rock climbing normally most of the time.

01:50:36:15 - 01:50:59:21
Brent
But I have seen like in the world enough to in that world enough to see what's going on. And yeah, maybe like the US climbers outside, outside climbers, it's like in the dozens. Like, no, not a ton more than our product designers at climbing companies. To be fair, it's like you might have a better shot at being a pro climber.

01:50:59:24 - 01:51:01:04
Kyle
Than a product designer at

01:51:01:06 - 01:51:02:17
Brent
Yeah. Well,

01:51:02:19 - 01:51:15:07
Kyle
Did you ever strive to, like, be in that top 1% of the 1% making a salary climbing? Is that was that like a goal of yours? Is it a goal of yours? And are those positions like partly political in nature?

01:51:15:10 - 01:51:42:02
Brent
I wouldn't say political, but it's interesting point to start of what those positions are in nature. And to me that's storytelling. And yeah, you're, you're being paid to be an example. And let's be frank, the companies are paying you for a commercial return, like they're paying you to be a storyteller, to inspire other climbers to get into the community and, like, raise the economic level of the brand by the stuff.

01:51:42:04 - 01:52:16:04
Brent
But like, just be part of the economics of the sport, to be frank. And it's all storytelling. So making movies, writing blogs, Instagram and I think that's where the, the role of storyteller is something I dabble in. But it's not like the core driver in climbing for me. And there are some years post climbing full time, still working like some random working at the makerspace, doing a little bit of like handyman home remodel work.

01:52:16:07 - 01:52:43:01
Brent
I'm like, it would be nice to make the money through climbing instead of painting or drywall or random little side use and for like a year or two, I did kind of fancy myself towards that direction and try a little harder on YouTube and things like that. And I don't know, it just like, didn't I didn't catch the wave the same way that I feel like I catch the wave when I stay.

01:52:43:04 - 01:53:04:26
Brent
To my nature of making things, which leads into a van at some point. But yeah, I, I have a funny place now in climbing where people talk about having a personal brand and it's like, no, I have a personal brand like the brand separate as mine, and it's kind of a fun version of it for me. It suits me really well.

01:53:04:27 - 01:53:26:07
Brent
It's like way more about the things the brand is creating, but it's my brand and people know that. And yeah, it's like a fun, once removed version of it. So I definitely, yeah, make my living and my entire career is wrapped up in climbing. So maybe disingenuous to say I'm not professional in the climbing industry.

01:53:26:10 - 01:53:26:26
Brent
But I'd

01:53:27:01 - 01:53:31:12
Kyle
craved you've carved your own path. Yeah. And that's rad. I think that's awesome.

01:53:31:12 - 01:53:48:27
Kyle
I mean, I resonate with you a lot. On being once removed. I think one of the only reasons why you use successful air quotes with with my Instagram is just that it's not me, it's my climbing. And like, I don't know if I could do it, if it was just like, I have to be on camera, I have

01:53:49:03 - 01:53:52:24
Brent
Yeah. You have an interesting first person view. Actually doesn't include you.

01:53:52:27 - 01:54:04:16
Kyle
me. It's my pants and my arms and it's it's I'm sharing the experience of the climb rather than like, this is about me. And so it's like, it's as weird.

01:54:04:16 - 01:54:15:01
Brent
You have like, a pseudonym and I met you person and I'm like, I think that's this guy. But I like almost didn't want to ask directly in case I was wrong.

01:54:15:03 - 01:54:15:15
Kyle
Yeah.

01:54:15:19 - 01:54:21:07
Kyle
Talking about like, the full time climbing, you had mentioned that you, like, got bored.

01:54:21:08 - 01:54:27:02
Brent
Yeah, I probably threw out some dramatic words to to pull you in when you were just chatting on the phone.

01:54:27:02 - 01:54:29:11
Kyle
Yeah, yeah, well it worked. Now you got to talk about

01:54:29:14 - 01:54:29:28
Brent
Yeah.

01:54:30:02 - 01:54:41:02
Kyle
yeah. So I mean, the whole preface here is like you, full time climbing, living the dream that a lot of people really, like, really strive for. I mean, I think that's like a lot of people's goal. I mean, it's my goal. I'd love to climb full time.

01:54:41:04 - 01:54:50:23
Kyle
Obviously, I'd like to be doing other stuff in tangent to it. Yeah. Like what does it feel like to get to that place where you're like, man, I need something else?

01:54:50:26 - 01:55:11:03
Brent
Yeah. Brings up a lot of thoughts for for me. I really enjoy local climbing. One of the things that feels like a means to an end in climbing is travel. And this is something that's not a popular view of, like, especially in climbing media and professional climbing. It's like all about destinations. And I really love local climbing.

01:55:11:05 - 01:55:26:06
Brent
And one of the things I feel like when I'm traveling is I don't have my tinker, Tinker, Space Tiger, time for my climbing gear, my home remodels, my whatever of just like that. Physical creation is really difficult while you're traveling, while you're transient.

01:55:26:09 - 01:55:26:29
Brent
So

01:55:27:01 - 01:55:48:03
Brent
with that kind of local centric view, I'm climbing full time. That means two days of climbing, one day of rest. Best case, maybe you get injured. Maybe you have other downtime offseasons. Maybe those days are climbing gym days where you climb for 3 or 4 hours and then you're hanging out. It's like, what do you do with the hang out time?

01:55:48:06 - 01:55:54:23
Brent
I jokingly call resting. Waiting is sometimes it feels like we're just waiting to go rock climbing, but

01:55:54:25 - 01:55:57:06
Brent
like, that's not that's it feels like a shallow life.

01:55:57:08 - 01:56:25:10
Brent
me, just rock climbing without the making did feel shallow. But I was tinkering for my myself in those times. Like, I had a startup idea that didn't go anywhere. I was working in this makerspace project. So I never really just climbed full time and traveled. But I knew that I wouldn't like it that much, honestly, is because of losing those other elements that keep me rooted in.

01:56:25:13 - 01:56:32:22
Kyle
And so traveling was like almost a part of being a full time climber that you didn't resonate with.

01:56:32:25 - 01:56:36:11
Kyle
you're like, okay, well, if I'm not going to travel, where else is my focus

01:56:36:17 - 01:56:36:23
Brent
when.

01:56:36:24 - 01:56:41:15
Brent
You say that, when you say you're a full time climber, you probably imagine somebody in a van.

01:56:41:21 - 01:56:43:26
Kyle
of course, I think immediately think of Patagonia

01:56:43:29 - 01:56:46:06
Brent
climbing full time and traveling or like

01:56:46:08 - 01:57:07:16
Brent
intensely together. And I've kind of lived the full time climbing and a local sense for the last five years, mostly in Flagstaff and yeah, now new, new backyard. Yeah. I think that's even like a contrarian take in climbing of, like, it's not all about the traveling. It's like the professional glorified climbing destination experience.

01:57:07:16 - 01:57:17:17
Brent
It's like so different than normal rock climbing and stewardship and community making. And there's counter-examples. But you watch the films and it's mostly about destinations.

01:57:17:20 - 01:57:38:14
Kyle
Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm I mean, it depends on the lens you're looking through, right? I think if you're thinking about commercialization, traveling is probably like a magnifier to its your a sense of fairness because it's like now the story is like we travel and there's like the bags we have to do, blah blah, blah. It's like it adds so much more toil to to the climb.

01:57:38:16 - 01:57:40:26
Kyle
And when you're local, it's like lacking that

01:57:41:02 - 01:57:48:05
Brent
Yes. I had my espresso in the morning and I woke up in my own bed and then went out for a few hours into this hard thing, and then

01:57:48:08 - 01:57:51:11
Brent
had dinner with friends and had a hot shower. It's a great day.

01:57:51:14 - 01:58:06:19
Kyle
yeah. But I think that when you're traveling you lack like you're alluding to or you already said you lack time to dedicate more effort into like local community and like advancing kind of like the space that you're in locally.

01:58:06:23 - 01:58:13:12
Brent
Yeah. So yeah, on the boredom topic, that was just kind of all context of like,

01:58:13:14 - 01:58:23:08
Brent
I never really did live that lifestyle. It's like quite local centric as a climber, even if I had some trips every year.

01:58:23:10 - 01:59:07:01
Brent
And I still even with that, I still got like a little bit bored and my creative energy went towards these projects. And kind of to the leading, leading community points you're making is growing up and having all these fun projects. I was really solving problems, puzzling, tinkering for my own, for myself, for my own problems. And I think I did have a realization in being a professional engineer that if you solve your own problem and then present it to the world open source, or starting a brand as you do, create community around that, because the problem you have that is solved really well, it's probably gonna improve other people's experiences as well.

01:59:07:03 - 01:59:41:20
Brent
So yeah, I think there was definitely boredom space in those years of climbing that directly led to experimenting and thinking on systems. And yeah, definitely led into a thought. And I feel more satisfied now with climbing. I can schedule my climbing and go climbing whenever I want. And then I have a business project that I fill in the gaps with and I feel more in life flow now with both of those.

01:59:41:23 - 01:59:54:16
Brent
And at my Flagstaff time, it was like the makerspace was that extra thing. But there was like moments, months, trips where I did live, the traveling climber life. And it's not for me full time.

01:59:54:23 - 01:59:55:07
Brent
Yeah,

01:59:55:09 - 02:00:16:25
Kyle
Before we get back to it, if you've been listening to the show, you probably know how much time and effort and love I put into this project. The research, the conversations, the production, the editing, all of it. And while it might seem like I've got a team of people on this project, I don't. It's just me. And even with sponsors, I spend a large amount of my own personal money on this project simply because I love it.

02:00:16:27 - 02:00:40:18
Kyle
If you are a listener that's looking for a way to give back to the show in a meaningful way. Please become a Patreon subscriber. Once you become a supporting member of the Climbing Majority, not only will you feel really good about yourself, but you'll also get access to the ad free version of the show and exclusive content. If this speaks to you, click the link in the description or go to Patreon.com Slash the Climbing Majority podcast to become a supporting member of the show today.

02:00:40:21 - 02:00:45:17
Kyle
Let's talk about the flip stop, the one piece of your gear that I don't have yet.

02:00:45:17 - 02:00:50:04
Brent
yeah. You're you're teasing me with this right here,

02:00:50:06 - 02:00:54:19
Kyle
He's holding on to just a Z4 with a flip stop less

02:00:54:19 - 02:00:56:26
Brent
Oh, yeah. Son, only video

02:00:56:29 - 02:01:01:09
Kyle
And, yeah, it's just flipping around. It's giving him anxiety.

02:01:01:12 - 02:01:31:09
Brent
Yeah, but the same way you you, like, do something on a wall and in one motion, you're like, ooh, that's not the way. Like that visceral feeling of like, this isn't. This could be better. Yeah. It is that. So? Now I have this brand of climbing. That's my small business. And, I sell a handful of products for trad multi pitch and rope still climbing that are all things I made for myself first.

02:01:31:12 - 02:02:02:13
Brent
And solved my own little climbing annoyances, problems, whatever. And now I'm selling them on my e-commerce store. They're in some shops, but it's like it's a hobby business on purpose. So like, I'm not trying to be a literal yes or trying go. I'm just trying to like, do my own thing. But an origin story of that is I had some of these rope solo gadgets that I was sharing open source files on the internet in the like 2022 or 2023 era.

02:02:02:16 - 02:02:26:19
Brent
And a lot of those were built off other community members. And I was just adding my professional product design kind of final touches to these existing concepts. So a lot of those are not from scratch, but just final refinements to make them work really, really well. But there is one that I'm really proud of that came out of another moment that's fun to point to is I was trying cup crack again.

02:02:26:19 - 02:03:01:09
Brent
This is like my sweet spot of being really close to the cutting edge climbers, but like not quite relevant in some doing sometimes doing these projects, but around the scene, seeing what's going on. And I'm at Cobra crack trying it, making some links, doing a lot of dogging quick draws is into the camp slings to like hang out, rest, try moves, and also trying to do some leading on the root where you're like hanging off the little fingertips of your hands with one hand to place cams.

02:03:01:12 - 02:03:22:07
Brent
And it's like a a ticking clock, to say the least. And there's like one key point for in the middle of the headwall that everyone places, and it's pretty easy to place if you do it in flow with the sequence. But an upside down care of being as petty as it can seem can

02:03:22:10 - 02:03:39:21
Brent
impede your one go make you hang off that lock like twice as long, make the next move harder and then it just can like ruin that go and on a route like that. So go be sensitive and so powerful. You get like two goes, three goes for your session and then you have to rest, heal skin, whatever.

02:03:39:23 - 02:04:05:07
Brent
So is like a a meaningful difference to to have your rock streamlined and working how it should. So most pro climbers use tape in those circumstances. They just use climbing tape to tape the carabiner in place so it doesn't flip. And make it hard to clip. And I kind of have my my spidey senses turn on when I see DIY solutions like, it probably could be better.

02:04:05:09 - 02:04:23:09
Brent
And I've worked in the brands. I know that those moments feed into products, but you just need, yeah, you need to like, close the loop there somehow. And this was one where I'm like, I'm not going to call it my black diamond buddies and be like, you guys should do this. Like I want to. I want to see it to life.

02:04:23:11 - 02:04:47:08
Brent
But basically you can use a carabiner stabilizer from quick draws on your cams. And I had my entire rack outfitted with these. They're like little rubber triangles that pinch the sling to keep the carabiner from flipping for easier clipping. But it also pinches the sling, which means when you clip an extension drawer to the sling and weight it, it's harder to clip the flat and sling.

02:04:47:08 - 02:05:11:28
Brent
And when you weight it, it breaks the rubber. Maybe not the very first time, but in a matter of like a climbing season, you'll break a substantial number of your carabiner stabilizers. So I came up with this like little figure eight wrap of tape at Cobra crack when I was just waiting my turn. That taped the carabiner in the sling while keeping the sling open.

02:05:12:01 - 02:05:26:22
Brent
I was just like, yeah, just like a strip of tape. I'm like, this is the answer. I think you can do this out of rubber and make it commercialized products. That works for everybody. And that was the flip stop. So I.

02:05:26:25 - 02:05:45:05
Brent
I had something I wanted to commercialize for the first time that I thought would do really well in climbing as like a little cottage brand, but I also was in the industry. I know that little standalone products are not going to do very well, and I had these other rope set of gadgets, these little rope holders and rubber things.

02:05:45:07 - 02:06:07:21
Brent
Yeah, it's hard to describe in audio. They're pretty esoteric. But these accessories, I'm not selling ropes and carabiners. I'm selling these like add ons that actually make a substantial difference. But that flip stuff was like the direct impetus of like, oh, I should start a brand. I want to see this to life. I want this to exist in the climbing world.

02:06:07:23 - 02:06:24:21
Brent
And I gathered up a handful of ideas. Honestly, I even gathered up some old notes from my BD times that they didn't care about. They ignored. So I'm like, I'm going to bring that to life. And yeah, I created this, this fun brand. That's just my wacky ideas with no one to tell me no.

02:06:24:23 - 02:06:26:01
Kyle
no.

02:06:26:03 - 02:06:26:28
Brent
It's awesome

02:06:27:01 - 02:06:28:13
Kyle
How many products do you have now?

02:06:28:16 - 02:06:30:04
Brent


02:06:30:06 - 02:06:53:26
Brent
I think maybe like 12 and some more. More coming. Yeah. Like a fleet of leader of solo products that if you know little up selling, you'll know what they are. And then a top rope solo neck lanyard and a top rope solo specific, a rope protector that rips right off, kind of fixes the bug of real protectors are really two hands to take off.

02:06:53:28 - 02:07:13:11
Brent
Yeah, and then some trad climbing things like the flip stop carabiner stabilizer and then even this, like quick release cam holder on your harness. So you add it to your gear loop and you can pop your cam off and place it without putting it in your mouth, because that's a weird thing of trad climbing is like, we put every single cam in our mouth.

02:07:13:14 - 02:07:14:04
Brent
Kind of strange.

02:07:14:04 - 02:07:15:11
Kyle
It is a little strange. Yeah.

02:07:15:11 - 02:07:34:03
Brent
Which yeah, we haven't solved it for multi pitch like off the ground, normal climbing, but for hard trad climbing where you want to place all the gear you can again keep it safe. It's like how do we just place it a little bit faster and thus place more gear. That was like a little gadget I had to come up with.

02:07:34:06 - 02:07:45:00
Kyle
so like, I've so many times I've had like an open cam, especially that one right there. Like get hooked on a lip, an overhanging lip or something and like pull on my harness, like, would it fall off if I had one of

02:07:45:06 - 02:07:45:18
Brent
Yes,

02:07:45:18 - 02:07:46:05
Kyle
Okay.

02:07:46:05 - 02:08:09:20
Brent
it's the nature of the pitch. It's like a single pitch project. If it's hard, it's probably a pretty clean pitch and it's probably overhanging. Projects is a project tool. But yeah, I have these like 12 geeky products that I made for myself that I now present to the community through my it's my brand, my store, and it's been awesome.

02:08:09:22 - 02:08:34:09
Brent
I like feels like the truest sense of my self in community place because they put out a lot of education and a lot of like leading by example through the brand and get to make these fun things that probably would have been told, I would have been told, no, we can't sell these at Black Diamond. But the wacky ideas, the simple, wacky ideas are like my sweet spot for my product design.

02:08:34:12 - 02:08:50:08
Kyle
cool, man, I'm glad you've, like self-created. Such a great outlet for, like, what drives your passion and such a unique thing to do. And, yeah, I mean, it's been awesome. People have, like, Bryce shared your brand with me when it came out, came out like January 20th 4

02:08:50:10 - 02:08:53:10
Brent
Yeah. Three, four little over two years ago now.

02:08:53:18 - 02:08:54:16
Kyle
years ago.

02:08:54:19 - 02:09:11:12
Kyle
Yeah. And it's been it's been awesome. I love the content you've been putting out and I haven't like dived too much into the rope soloing world. So I can't resonate with you super hard on all the wacky little tools, but I'm sure I will at some point. What about this one here? What was the precipice for this?

02:09:11:12 - 02:09:13:05
Kyle
And

02:09:13:08 - 02:09:30:18
Brent
Yeah, so this is my snack pack multi bit storage pouch, which to try and not go full infomercial here. It's something I had made for myself like ten years ago of to me multipage climbing. When multi climbing I don't like wearing a backpack.

02:09:30:18 - 02:09:47:28
Brent
Harder routes. I just foot haul it with a little tiny tagline, but easier kind of romping. Fun routes also mean you're probably going fast enough that you only need a bar, sunglasses, and your phone. Let's be honest, the phone is the Multipage multi-tool as I like to call it.

02:09:48:01 - 02:10:14:12
Brent
It's your topo. It's your light. It's your emergency communication. We bring our phones, but there was. But putting in your pocket doesn't work very well. So yeah, ten years ago I used a phone sleeve off Amazon and added some loops and had just a phone sleeve as like a second chalk bag, and then this is, this is kind of like my free time while I bd, but just making stuff for myself.

02:10:14:14 - 02:10:35:02
Brent
And I added a little storage pouch to it, to store those essentials. And I loved it. And that's really the threshold for event products is I find it really useful, I love it, and if it hits those metrics, then I'll sell it. And this was one of the key key first products that haven't as well is.

02:10:35:05 - 02:10:41:10
Brent
Yeah. So multi bit storage pouch. So you don't have to bring a backpack for every shorter partial day route.

02:10:41:13 - 02:10:44:19
Kyle
How did you choose the size?

02:10:44:22 - 02:11:08:16
Brent
It ends up being it right at one liter. But it's basically just like the same as the chalk bag. Yeah. It's like what you need to bring. Again, the list I mentioned. Yeah. You bring like a bar headlamp, a knife and some sunglasses. And this is like your half day supplies kit, and one liter is plenty for that.

02:11:08:18 - 02:11:15:23
Brent
And it's like such a lightweight material that if you bring a quarter liter of supplies, it just squish it down.

02:11:15:23 - 02:11:16:08
Brent
No big deal.

02:11:16:15 - 02:11:16:22
Kyle
deal.

02:11:16:26 - 02:11:24:29
Kyle
Did that phone tether, was that like a the way that works? Was that innovative on your end, or is that like something that you had seen before?

02:11:25:01 - 02:11:28:09
Brent
Yeah. So.

02:11:28:11 - 02:11:54:24
Brent
The snack pack does have an integrated phone tether, and there's some other brands I was. Yeah, this is actually a commercialization reality of bringing the snack pack to life. I wanted to include a phone tether, and I had just used a phone tether from a different brand. But the commercialization realities of buying those at scale from the other brand or.

02:11:54:27 - 02:12:27:10
Brent
Yeah, trying to you trying to include one with it was really difficult and didn't make money. It would be a losing battle to try to the costs. And then it's a bad user experience to be like, here, you buy my thing, but like, be sure you go to this store and buy this thing. Bad user experience. So kind of by necessity, I, I like used my, not this elastic cord from the top rope solo lanyard and made made a little phone tether and it was kind of like a secondary thought of like, oh, it should have something with the snap back.

02:12:27:12 - 02:12:54:23
Brent
But yeah, now it's been a hit. But the like little insert is it's kind of like an off the shelf component. I didn't innovate this. You. Yeah you find partners. It's like commercialization realities. Some things you build from scratch and some things you find a supplier for. It's a little civil connectors. It's like I didn't CAD design this piece you like, find a supplier, but you find the right supplier or the stable supplier.

02:12:54:26 - 02:12:56:14
Brent
Figure out quality and stability.

02:12:56:14 - 02:12:56:26
Brent
For

02:12:56:29 - 02:12:59:10
Kyle
actual anchor though like I had never seen that

02:12:59:13 - 02:12:59:28
Brent
Oh, really?

02:13:00:00 - 02:13:09:08
Kyle
I had never seen the anchor before. Like when I first saw it, I didn't even know how to use it. I had to think about it for a second. I was like, okay, like, take my phone out of my case. Do I stick it through the through the charge?

02:13:09:09 - 02:13:11:06
Kyle
Okay, through the charger hole? Got it.

02:13:11:08 - 02:13:20:06
Brent
That that isn't my innovation. But so much of design is taking adjacent in this innovation and applying it. And that's what that is.

02:13:20:08 - 02:13:20:22
Brent
It's like,

02:13:20:27 - 02:13:39:02
Kyle
worked super well on the nose. I, I actually took the tether off and clipped the tether to my speed bag and just, like, kept my phone in my chest pocket here and then had it tethered, like, to my backpack. And then I had that in my day pack, and I was a micro organizing everything in my

02:13:39:04 - 02:13:52:18
Brent
That's awesome. I love to hear it. Yeah, the design's all down to the details. Like this red carabiner being this size, it's the smallest little keychain carabiner I could find that can still clip a rope diameter or a bolt hanger.

02:13:52:20 - 02:13:52:24
Brent
Is

02:13:52:24 - 02:13:55:08
Kyle
Is it weighted like what is it rated to?

02:13:55:10 - 02:13:55:13
Brent
hey.

02:13:55:14 - 02:13:58:03
Brent
Probably breaks. I think this one breaks it like two can. But

02:13:58:03 - 02:13:59:10
Kyle
Oh, so you could body weight that.

02:13:59:10 - 02:13:59:22
Brent
know

02:13:59:29 - 02:14:00:29
Kyle
Oh.

02:14:01:02 - 02:14:03:07
Brent
it. And

02:14:03:09 - 02:14:03:13
Kyle
Two

02:14:03:13 - 02:14:04:27
Brent
that's my official answer. No.

02:14:05:02 - 02:14:06:00
Kyle
Oh, no.

02:14:06:03 - 02:14:06:18
Brent
I

02:14:06:21 - 02:14:09:07
Kyle
Got it.

02:14:09:10 - 02:14:33:26
Brent
But it's basically a non weight bearing carabiner. But it's big enough that you can clip it at anchors. So yeah doing a yeah. Try not to go full infomercial, but I make things that I find extremely useful and are super fun to sell direct to the can direct to the customer and have that. Yeah. Community relation is like I'm customer service.

02:14:34:01 - 02:14:59:24
Brent
I answer every email and yeah, I have built a machine to make it like a true business. I think it's a service to the community to make something that's lasting, because there's so many cottage brands that start up with enthusiasm and then die of attrition. And yeah, I've tried to build it. So the single last though, I'm not necessarily trying to get into ropes and carabiners, I just want to make it these fun, fun side things.

02:15:00:02 - 02:15:00:20
Brent
Yeah.

02:15:00:22 - 02:15:03:10
Kyle
Do you does how not to list your gear.

02:15:03:15 - 02:15:19:12
Brent
Yeah. How not to use a strong partner. But otherwise I'm not trying to get into RSI. I'm like my webstore or core brick and mortar gear shops, but like, not, I'll try to be done, all right. Or backcountry or the stores.

02:15:19:19 - 02:15:20:04
Kyle
yeah.

02:15:20:07 - 02:15:22:29
Kyle
Are you handling fulfillment and everything or is that all outsourced?

02:15:23:02 - 02:15:51:14
Brent
It's set up as a machine around me, so I, I know what I'm best at. It's the ideation and it's getting from nothing to like a workable concept. And then I do product development. So just like Black Diamond and any other company these days, you work with contract manufacturers that are really good at making a thing and you share your specs, you make a quality plan and you buy them in large batches.

02:15:51:16 - 02:16:13:04
Brent
And then I do have a warehouse partner because I don't live the full travel life, but I also do travel a bit, so I didn't want to be cramping my climbing lifestyle for the sake of shipping out packages at the USPS store or at the post office. Yeah. Speaking of attrition, that's that's where businesses go to die.

02:16:13:07 - 02:16:43:14
Brent
So yeah. You in our pre call, you asked how it's different than just a little cottage brand. I think the difference is I do fancy myself as an entrepreneur. And I do really care about making this business that will exist long term and be stable. And I've actually been in the e-commerce business since I was like 14, selling the vanity patches for motocross apparel with like hard coded HTML website and PayPal like I.

02:16:43:17 - 02:17:07:10
Brent
Yeah, funny enough, I've been in the e-commerce game for a long time and I shipped packages at the post office. I knew what I didn't want to do, in creating a vault and creating it to last. So yeah, it's it's a pretty lean, modern business that I built to to serve the community and offer this stuff long term and always have it in stock as well.

02:17:07:13 - 02:17:31:02
Kyle
Yeah it's awesome. It's like avant is like a culmination of like, everything that you've been from the beginning, from the tinkering to your experience with manufacturing to the big, like moving past product design to your experience as a climber and finding the problems that you need to solve. Like, I just love to see it all kind of come together into one business, one product, one like final product.

02:17:31:02 - 02:17:32:07
Kyle
It's really cool.

02:17:32:09 - 02:17:53:21
Brent
Yeah, it's really satisfying. It isn't. That. How life works is like three years ago. Five years ago, I did feel a bit aimless. I mentioned boredom, but aimless is maybe a better word. Or like, oh, this is fun recreation. I don't know what I'm up to in my life. Big picture. But it all backwards. It's really easy to draw a line of like, wow.

02:17:53:22 - 02:17:57:11
Brent
Yeah, it really did teach me how to do these things.

02:17:57:13 - 02:18:19:13
Brent
even running the community makerspace, I learned system creation and how to, like, design myself out of the role to make lasting community resource. Okay, apply that language to Yvonne. And maybe some people will be skeptical because it's a commercial enterprise. But like, that's what I did at this makerspace is I don't work there anymore and it's thriving.

02:18:19:15 - 02:18:26:04
Brent
And it was because I created these systems that would let the entity live beyond me.

02:18:26:06 - 02:18:42:24
Kyle
That's awesome man. Stoked for you. It was really cool. It's not something that a lot of people I don't know. It's it's it's unique. It's rare, it's special. And yeah, I know I've, I've done like a Kickstarter before. I've launched a see that red thing on the front of that

02:18:42:27 - 02:18:43:18
Brent
Oh yeah.

02:18:43:21 - 02:18:45:21
Kyle
So that's like a dead product.

02:18:45:21 - 02:18:47:14
Brent
And I you've done the e-commerce game,

02:18:47:16 - 02:18:50:24
Kyle
the East Commerce game, I've done the product design, the development.

02:18:50:29 - 02:19:10:08
Kyle
I've been in that space before, and I know how hard it is and how thankless it can be at times in the beginning. So yeah, it's just it's really cool to see everything kind of come to work in the end and you find it a machine that works outside of you. I think that's the biggest thing, because you don't want your business to eat you in your time, so that's cool.

02:19:10:10 - 02:19:25:12
Brent
Yeah. I feel really grateful. Like, I feel proud. I feel grateful for how much community support and enthusiasm is around the brand. And yeah, I'm lucky that whatever what inherently appeals to me is celebrated and desired in the community.

02:19:25:15 - 02:19:51:26
Kyle
Yeah that's right. Yeah. Hopefully I can get more people to to know about event and what you're doing. This question here is like, I guess, summarizing everything, like you're climbing hard, you're building community, you're developing roots, like inventing new gear. It's like more than a lot of us dream to achieve in a way. Like, obviously you found yourself.

02:19:51:28 - 02:20:12:14
Kyle
Everyone has their own specific life path, and it's all kind of culminated into this one thing. But it's a lot like you've done a lot. You said you've like, you've had more of a practical approach to your life than a philosophical one. But like, like, where's the meaning behind what you do? Like what drives you? Where's your passion?

02:20:12:15 - 02:20:22:27
Kyle
Like all of these things that you've pursued and you've, you've you've gone after what has been like this driving force behind your effort all this year?

02:20:23:00 - 02:20:48:20
Brent
Thanks for the kind words. I think it's I think it's user design. I, I call it a world creation, which might, might be lost on, without an explanation. But it's like these little microcosms of, like this, this world, this makerspace community didn't exist. But I saw the building. I saw in my mind what this could be.

02:20:48:20 - 02:21:13:23
Brent
And other models that. Yeah, like, we know makerspaces can't exist. One can exist here. Like, how do we do it? Yeah. I think it's dreaming up possibilities in my mind's eye. And and just like, really believing as possible and then almost not being able to not see it through. I like getting fixated on this. Should exist. Let's make it happen.

02:21:13:25 - 02:21:16:22
Brent
And yeah, enjoying the puzzle along the way.

02:21:16:29 - 02:21:18:02
Brent
Yeah.

02:21:18:04 - 02:21:36:09
Kyle
What's what's next? It seems like you're the kind of person that right now, you're basking in the glory of, like, the success of vaunt and like the culmination of the efforts that have been decades of work. But it seems like there's going to be a next, like a next horizon, a next vision. Like, do you have a next vision?

02:21:36:10 - 02:21:38:24
Kyle
Do you have an idea of what the future

02:21:38:24 - 02:21:39:10
Brent
looks like?

02:21:39:12 - 02:22:03:09
Brent
I have themes that I think about, and I don't know if being in the climbing industry will be like, my forever career. To be honest. I think advance like a really sweet spot right now. But I don't really want an office and like, director level C-suite executives and like, this thing, I do enjoy business, but I don't think I would enjoy that version.

02:22:03:11 - 02:22:12:12
Brent
So it's not going anywhere. And I have plans to keep launching products, but at like a linear rate of like we're doing the same thing and here's some more cool stuff.

02:22:12:16 - 02:22:15:10
Kyle
As you come across problems, you're like, oh, here's another, here's

02:22:15:12 - 02:22:15:19
Brent
Yeah,

02:22:15:22 - 02:22:24:16
Brent
exactly. And my product development cycle, because I'm not selling into those calendars, is like whenever I want, let's do it. Let's launch it. Which is great.

02:22:24:16 - 02:22:56:19
Brent
It's like an amazing, flexible place. But I think longer term career, I think maybe something back into like the maker stage makerspace, community creation, slash real estate remodeling, I don't know, something local centric. I've I've dreamed up of having, like, a community woodshop that's like a, collaborative space for professionals. It's like a maker space for professionals, co-working for wood, wood, woodworking and carpentry and, furniture making.

02:22:56:21 - 02:23:13:25
Brent
That's like a faint idea. I've thought about, things like that as kind of like some maybe something more tangible, something to contrast climbing. But yeah, it's not going anywhere anytime soon. This is like ten year plans. Yeah.

02:23:13:27 - 02:23:15:12
Brent
Who knows?

02:23:15:14 - 02:23:27:07
Kyle
So I mean, I guess to close it off on like the climbing side of it, you have spent like most of 20, 25, like bouldering. That was kind of like a focus of yours for that year. Is that correct?

02:23:27:12 - 02:23:33:22
Brent
Yeah, I, I did a lot of bouldering. Yeah.

02:23:33:25 - 02:23:35:06
Brent
Yeah. Yeah. Started

02:23:35:11 - 02:23:58:18
Kyle
And it seems I'm piecing things together here Frankenstein style. So correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like that that choice for that year, that focus was in response to this kind of like 13 plus ceiling that you've experienced and also the I'm sure heartbreaking few move myths of magic line. Is that all connected in a way?

02:23:58:24 - 02:24:05:22
Kyle
And is that kind of like in the climbing world? Is that like your next goal is to like, free that route?

02:24:05:27 - 02:24:32:11
Brent
Yeah, it it is a guiding goal and something I keep getting painfully close to. For trad climbing, for red pointing, hard trad routes, they get fewer and fewer, much more so that it's hard spot routes. Hard spot routes. At 514 level, you have tons of options and you can find one to suit you. And the trad climbs get finicky, whether poorly protected or just like you only have a few options.

02:24:32:11 - 02:24:59:04
Brent
So if the moves are awkward for you, you get what you get. But yeah, kind of your point of you feel like you are close together. I feel like I've heard it described as raising the floor like my baseline of on sighting, feeling comfortable versus like, well, my red point ability is I think they are like fairly compressed for an elite rock climber and the like peak peak climbing.

02:24:59:06 - 02:25:33:04
Brent
I do think you need stimulus that's just doing hard moves and yeah, hard sport climbing hasn't pulled me in as much as hard bouldering, probably just by environments of like, yeah, not enjoying that Kiwi sport crags as much. The autonomy of just going out with the pad with or without friends. Yeah, for a few reasons. So I have leaned into bouldering as a way to basically train, learn, perform hard moves, while still being outside, instead of just like going to the board.

02:25:33:07 - 02:25:34:28
Brent
At the gym.

02:25:35:01 - 02:25:38:04
Kyle
What's do you have like a timeline on magic line or you got to go back and try it.

02:25:38:11 - 02:25:54:09
Brent
So I tried it. You probably read a blog post from like a year ago, and I tried it again this fall and I won. Hung it again. I, I like low point one hung it didn't quite do it. And then it got like too hot and then it snowed,

02:25:54:12 - 02:25:58:16
Brent
which I wasn't for sure going to do it, but I was feeling really good.

02:25:58:16 - 02:26:29:04
Brent
And my window is really short this year for seasonality reasons. But I do love the Sierra, and I moved to the greater Tahoe region to be closer to 70 and Sierra granite. So I'm hoping, yeah, that that route I feel inspired by the big picture, like it's been a guiding motivation for like 6 or 7 years. And I've spent a few seasons working on it, going super close.

02:26:29:06 - 02:26:52:25
Brent
And there have been moments where like, it's felt maybe not worth it in the project in the sense of just spending days beating my head against this route. And then there's the classic story of days where I let go of that, and I'm spending time up with these amazing people, these climbers. I look up to you and making new friends and whether or not I sense it's amazing day out.

02:26:52:27 - 02:26:56:23
Brent
Yeah. As long as I still have those days. So I'm going to still keep trying.

02:26:56:26 - 02:27:02:14
Kyle
Where can people follow your story, follow your work? What are some good resources that people can learn more about

02:27:02:20 - 02:27:26:28
Brent
Yeah. The Avon ecosystem is mostly where I'm sharing thoughts these days. So the avant newsletter is written by me, and it's where I geek out. And we just talk for hours about these little contrarian thoughts or like, geeky opinions. And my newsletter is just full of that. So it's just avant climbing website and a little subscribe button.

02:27:27:00 - 02:27:44:00
Brent
The Avante social media is kind of similar. And then I do have my personal website, Brand bargains.com with a blog. At this point, I'll probably share before it's like once or twice a year, kind of on purpose of like sparingly share some thoughts. If I do something that feels cool,

02:27:44:03 - 02:28:03:26
Kyle
Yeah. Awesome man all. I appreciate your time. It's been just super rad to sit down with you, and I never really know what I'm going to get myself into with like these conversations and but each time, I mean, especially now, just like so it's like I wouldn't say pleasantly surprised because that, like connotation, like a low expectation, but just.

02:28:03:27 - 02:28:06:14
Kyle
Yeah, just I had a really great time chatting with you. It's been cool.

02:28:06:16 - 02:28:15:10
Brent
Had a great time too. I'm glad to be able to do this in person, and I'm glad I didn't overstep your box for every person climber.

02:28:15:12 - 02:28:32:11
Kyle
Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I think, you know. No. No. Shade. Alex Arnold I think what he's done is just been prolific for for climbing, for the sport and for what's possible. But I think the the day I interview Alex is the day I sell

02:28:32:14 - 02:28:34:27
Kyle
So I think that that might be the ceiling, you know, I don't know.

02:28:34:28 - 02:28:37:18
Kyle
We'll see. But yeah, it's been cool to share your story.

02:28:37:21 - 02:28:38:03
Brent
Thank you.