117 | Drew Brodhead: SLCA Coordinator - Anchor Maintenance & Climbing Advocacy

Drew Brodhead is the Staff Advocacy Coordinator and Anchor Maintenance Coordinator for the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance, one of the most respected local climbing organizations in the country. With 18+ years of climbing experience and SPRAT Level 3 certification, Drew leads a professional anchor maintenance program that rebolts routes across the Wasatch Range April through November. This episode explores what it actually means to professionally maintain climbing infrastructure, the ethics of rebolting existing routes, and why Drew believes climbing is a privilege—not a right.

We discuss Drew's philosophy that if it's scary, leave it the same; if it's dangerous, change something—a quote from Boone Speed that guides how SLCA approaches rebolting decisions. Drew explains the difference between maintaining safety and preserving the climbing experience, why once bolts are placed they become community property, and how first ascensionists who refuse to allow rebolting create liability when climbers get hurt on deteriorating anchors.

We dig into the tension between access and advocacy, including the Logan Canyon rebolting controversy where an individual's well-intentioned work triggered land manager scrutiny because of poor communication with the climbing community. An example of how one mistake can ripple across the entire country.

Topics include: SLCA anchor maintenance program structure, SPRAT Level 3 certification, rebolting ethics, Half Dome Northwest Face, Logan Canyon access issues, land manager relationships, Protect America's Rock Climbing Act, nonprofit economics, Bears Ears advocacy, and community stewardship.

#Access&Advocacy

Cover Photo: @emilytrombly

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Transcript

00:00:00:11 - 00:00:03:17
Kyle
you work full time for the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance?

00:00:03:20 - 00:00:11:07
Kyle
As both an advocacy coordinator and an anchor maintenance coordinator. Like, walk me through what that means and, like, what does your day to day look like?

00:00:11:09 - 00:00:15:21
Drew
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So it's it's essentially two hats,

00:00:15:23 - 00:00:16:27
Drew
The.

00:00:16:29 - 00:00:54:15
Drew
The anchor maintenance coordinator. Part of my job is really picks up in the summer when, doing, like, anchor maintenance. And then in the winter, it's kind of more like back end stuff, so. But the anchor maintenance coordinator gig, working with the Solid Climbers alliance, it's me and five other other anchor techs. And we have a professional anchor maintenance program, and, essentially from April to early November, we're going out every other week, essentially, and revolting routes in the Wasatch Range outside of Salt Lake City.

00:00:54:15 - 00:01:21:12
Drew
So Monday through Friday. Eight hours a day, 40 hours a week, going out to to a zone and purely devoting that time to bolt. And, so managing the crews supplies, working with land managers, trying to talk to for Satanists, working with the community that to get, you know, ideas on where to go and then, implementing that that stuff and then also documenting.

00:01:21:13 - 00:01:40:24
Drew
So making sure that, if like someone later down the road is like, hey, what did you do on X, Y and Z route? I can go back. This is what was here. This is what we replace it with. And also documenting, adhesive. So the kind of the common thing we do is we bolting with glue ins, kind of.

00:01:40:24 - 00:02:08:24
Drew
That's where we're going a little bit more with especially, like popular support routes. So if like DeWalt, the manufacturer of the adhesive we use, comes back and say, hey, like batch, like 048, we found to be, you know, there's some failures, like, I know exactly what routes have that batch that we replace. And so we can then go and do some like quality control or damage control with that.

00:02:08:26 - 00:02:24:11
Drew
So kind of in between the weeks and doing a lot of documentation and writing recaps, and then in the winter months, working with land managers, getting our permits together, supplies, and just kind of like back end policy work.

00:02:24:11 - 00:02:24:27
Drew
With, with.

00:02:24:27 - 00:02:50:19
Drew
Our bolt world. And then the advocacy coordinator hat doing a lot of like, trail work projects, stewardship projects, lining up to access funds, conservation crew to come out in different local stewardship trail projects. And then just again, working with land managers on access and, occasionally going to Washington, DC, kind of things like that.

00:02:50:19 - 00:02:54:18
Drew
So I'm always putting one hat on, taking the hat off, but it's all kind of one,

00:02:54:24 - 00:02:59:26
Kyle
Is is there like a hierarchy to the team or you like the is there like a person in charge? How does that

00:02:59:28 - 00:03:07:12
Drew
Yeah, yeah. So there's, Julia Geisler. She's the executive director. She's been around, she's been at the helm for like 15 ish years.

00:03:07:18 - 00:03:12:29
Kyle
the it's been the the slack has been in effect for 15 years.

00:03:13:03 - 00:03:13:14
Drew
what.

00:03:13:20 - 00:03:18:05
Drew
Since 2002. And then she was hired on as part time

00:03:18:08 - 00:03:37:27
Drew
and then full time. And then after doing everything herself and having a lot of volunteers, kind of like, you know, let's start building up the organization. And so that's kind of like a natural progression for a lot of local climbing organizations. And, the kind of the AES is like the acronym for that.

00:03:37:27 - 00:03:46:22
Drew
But you have a lot of volunteer and then they're like, this is too much work. We bring in someone part time, and then it kind of grows and grows from there. What is the fun?

00:03:46:22 - 00:03:48:00
Kyle
funding come from?

00:03:48:03 - 00:04:00:01
Drew
Oh, combination from, private donors community. We have a joint, partnership with the access fund. So it's like their, joint membership program.

00:04:00:04 - 00:04:24:15
Drew
If you donate to the SLK and access Fund, like, we both can kind of get a cut of that. We have our own membership program. A lot of the funding for projects comes through grants. The state of Utah has an Office of Outdoor Recreation, and so they have millions of dollars that they hand out throughout the state for infrastructure recreation.

00:04:24:16 - 00:04:36:16
Drew
So they see the value of improving, recreation infrastructure. And so we luckily get, grants to them and then other other organizations, corporate sponsors.

00:04:36:19 - 00:04:46:11
Kyle
Who's handling like the fund acquisition and disbursement and like, I would imagine there's an element of marketing or PR like, who who's hat is that?

00:04:46:13 - 00:05:04:13
Drew
Yeah, yeah. So like kind of the fun stuff is our executive director. And then we have we just hired a new, communications and events coordinator. So that's kind of like their realm of, like, the marketing side of things. And then, definitely helping out in the back end.

00:05:04:16 - 00:05:33:16
Drew
You know, just trying to. Yeah. The climbing environment. So it's changing. I think the economy's hard. A lot of brands are struggling, especially with the tariffs. You know, they're forking out millions of dollars. You know, given that like, like diamonds can lose a lot of their operations overseas. And so like, you know black diamonds in our backyard and and so you know, trying to work with these brands to contribute to their backyard, it's just getting smaller and smaller.

00:05:33:16 - 00:05:35:06
Drew
And so it's it's kind of a struggle.

00:05:35:09 - 00:06:03:26
Kyle
much of a pulse do you actually have on the real effects that these companies are going through? Because I think it's like so far I've heard exactly what you've said, right? Like, tariffs are hurting companies like these companies are definitely like the economy's pretty tough. Like, do you understand the actual landscape of like what these companies are actually going through and like is it have they gotten like bloated during Covid and now they're like freaking out because like, the people are like, has there been any greed in the companies at all like prior to this?

00:06:03:26 - 00:06:07:26
Kyle
And now they're having to like fight restructuring or like, do you know anything about that?

00:06:07:28 - 00:06:25:19
Drew
Yeah, like like my $0.02. And just as an observer it seemed like Covid. It was definitely got bloated. Got site maybe start overspending, started hiring a lot. And now it's like we got to trim the fat and and,

00:06:25:21 - 00:06:40:29
Drew
It just seems like things are harder and they don't have as much money to throw around and have to be very reliable on their marketing team and like, what's success is theirs. And and I don't know what that is.

00:06:40:29 - 00:06:41:02
Drew
Yeah.

00:06:41:04 - 00:06:50:16
Kyle
I've heard of like athlete programs getting halted, people getting like essentially dropped from teams like a lot of a lot of, trimming, like trimming of the fat, like you said.

00:06:50:20 - 00:06:57:23
Drew
Yeah. And it seems like a lot of more focus, at least from my perspective, is more like influencers.

00:06:57:25 - 00:06:59:18
Kyle
People who actually have ROI.

00:06:59:20 - 00:07:13:22
Drew
Yeah. I mean, and that's it. And like, one thing we've, we've been trying to, like, grapple with is like, we have a pretty big following on social media is like around 15,000. And I think for like a climbing nonprofit, it's it's pretty darn good.

00:07:13:27 - 00:07:34:05
Kyle
would say. Like I've been running my channel for a while and I feel like I feel like especially in the western side of America, I feel like there's, I don't know, maybe like 20, 30,000 Instagram users that are like climbers, but that's probably it. I don't think it's as big as people think it is.

00:07:34:08 - 00:07:39:10
Drew
Yeah, I think there's a lot less totally, totally.

00:07:39:13 - 00:08:03:16
Drew
And like, with that and we've been trying to grapple of like, can we kind of use our platform as like a micro influencer in like a the stewardship space and like work with brands and that of like, like, like carrying the responsible way, doing these stewardship projects the responsible way rather than just like going out and doing it alone, like working with land managers and having these bigger conversations.

00:08:03:19 - 00:08:04:23
Kyle
How's that been going?

00:08:04:26 - 00:08:12:11
Drew
I mean, it's it's it's new this year. We've been pitching it. People have been like, this is interesting. We appreciate the creativity.

00:08:12:13 - 00:08:13:01
Drew
But no one's.

00:08:13:01 - 00:08:14:12
Drew
Quite that yet.

00:08:14:15 - 00:08:33:10
Kyle
Yeah I've definitely heard that like people are using at least people here like, AES are here. I've been using your AE as, like, an anchor to like or like an idol or something that people want to strive to be like. You guys are like the example of what a lot of AES are trying to accomplish, which is pretty cool.

00:08:33:14 - 00:08:33:26
Drew
Yeah.

00:08:33:26 - 00:08:45:00
Drew
Yeah, yeah, we appreciate that. I mean, Julia's done a great job. She's been at the helm, and I've learned so much from her. Yeah. It's a it's a it's an interesting space

00:08:45:03 - 00:08:50:23
Kyle
Yeah. For sure. A little bit more on kind of your, accolades or your skill sets.

00:08:51:00 - 00:08:55:20
Kyle
Talk to me about the process of getting your. Is it sprat? Is that the the acronym?

00:08:55:22 - 00:08:56:05
Drew
Yeah.

00:08:56:08 - 00:08:59:25
Kyle
Yeah. Talked about the process. What skills do you actually have to have?

00:08:59:27 - 00:09:32:09
Drew
Yeah, yeah. So, sprite, I'm going to I my butcher this. It's been a while. Society of professional rope access technicians. Something along those lines. And so like essentially rope access it's it's a way to get to work and, the use of ropes and, workout heights essentially. And so, now I kind of got to a point in my life where I'm like, hey, this seems like an interesting thing.

00:09:32:11 - 00:09:55:28
Drew
I work a lot, and then I have a lot of time off. I like being on ropes. I've tend to be blue collar my whole life. So, I reached out to a company in Santa Cruz called Rope Partner. I believe they're in Colorado now, and they offer, a Spratt level one, and they also employ people.

00:09:55:28 - 00:10:19:06
Drew
So I'm like, oh, maybe if I get my sprout level one through these people, I can meet everybody in the office and apply. And so I went out to Santa Cruz, got my level one. Spratt and I applied to work at this company, a real partner who has essentially worked on wind farms doing wind turbine maintenance. So we'd go up the tower, rappelled down and do fiberglass work on the tower house.

00:10:19:06 - 00:10:21:29
Drew
It was it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool.

00:10:22:06 - 00:10:23:08
Kyle
heard it pays well to

00:10:23:10 - 00:10:23:20
Drew
What's that?

00:10:23:24 - 00:10:24:27
Kyle
It pays well too.

00:10:25:00 - 00:10:37:20
Drew
Yeah. I mean, for, like, an in my mid 20s appeared really? Well, like, a lot of overtime premiums. Hotels paid for travels, pay for it, and all you're doing is work in these spots.

00:10:37:24 - 00:10:38:13
Drew
So someone

00:10:38:13 - 00:10:55:06
Kyle
it's a real quick for someone listening who, like, is interested in, like someone just heard that, like windmill. Like rappelling into when I was to do if I was right, man. Like, I've been searching for some way to, explore my skills as a climber and, you know, use it for money. I think, like, obviously the the main path people think of immediately is like guiding, right?

00:10:55:06 - 00:11:08:28
Kyle
I want to climb on time, like, but now there's like this other avenue. What would you recommend people to do? Like, where can they search for getting their spot at level one? And how can you like transfer that into actually having a job? Is that like connections is easy to apply like.

00:11:09:00 - 00:11:40:05
Drew
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's been it's been a while since I have gone through that, but I would definitely research companies that offer the certification. But they also employ where you can kind of have that face to face with the potential employer. But like the one thing that really struck me with the partner is that they really they had, they presented themselves as like, you know, we work hard and we play hard and like, there's climbers, there's rafters.

00:11:40:05 - 00:12:03:29
Drew
And it was just like collection of outdoor people. And so that would be my thing. That'll be my suggestion. There's also another certification called errata, which is more of an international thing. So that's recognized over in Europe. And like over in the, yeah, over in Europe in like the Middle East. And so that's kind of like the US thing of that.

00:12:04:01 - 00:12:04:21
Drew
Still applies.

00:12:04:21 - 00:12:05:00
Drew
Here.

00:12:05:07 - 00:12:05:22
Drew
Yeah.

00:12:05:28 - 00:12:28:18
Drew
Yeah. It tends to be a little bit more stringent. And so if you're like, I want to work on oil rigs in the middle of the ocean over and yeah. Who knows where like that, like Iran does kind of your thing. But if you just want to work in the States, you know, that's perfectly fine. Got a little expensive to get into it, but once it pays off.

00:12:28:20 - 00:12:43:08
Kyle
Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's I think, everyone's like, oh, college is expensive. And, you know, they start to talk about trade stuff is like, oh, it's like $1,000. It's like, dude, like, do you want to $40,000 in debt or do you want to spend a couple grand on a trade skill and like get money right away?

00:12:43:10 - 00:12:44:09
Drew
100%.

00:12:44:16 - 00:12:45:10
Drew
Yeah.

00:12:45:13 - 00:12:57:25
Drew
And and so like kind of like the process like you get your cert, you work X amount of hours and then you can apply to get your level two. Then you go through level.

00:12:57:25 - 00:12:59:12
Drew
Two works.

00:12:59:15 - 00:13:18:02
Drew
X amount of hours and get your level three. And there's different responsibility is kind of through within within all that. But essentially like a level three you can like manage teams like where like a level two you can manage your group, but then there's a level three onsite kind of overseeing the whole project.

00:13:18:08 - 00:13:23:19
Kyle
So it's not more like a breadth of skill set. It's like can you teach, can you manage, can you lead.

00:13:23:25 - 00:13:24:02
Drew
I mean.

00:13:24:03 - 00:13:40:20
Drew
Is everything skill set. I think like the soft skills, like, that's not really tight. You kind of learn those. But a lot of it is, it's like rescues, high angle work, scenarios kind of kind of all that jazz.

00:13:40:22 - 00:13:41:01
Drew
Like, if

00:13:41:01 - 00:14:02:10
Kyle
you were. So if you were to pick a percentage of, like, you've got, like all these skill sets you've learned from scratch, level three, like, what percentage of that have you used in like rope access for reporting like ten, 20, 30? Like, is it how basic is I, I don't want to say word basic, but.

00:14:02:10 - 00:14:04:02
Kyle
Yeah. Like how much what percentage are you using.

00:14:04:08 - 00:14:30:15
Drew
Yeah. Yeah I would say pretty pretty low. You know like a level one I'm probably using maybe 20%, 30% of a level one. And I think what it really comes down to is like the rescue side of if I need to rescue a coworker, that's kind of like, really? Where pays off?

00:14:30:17 - 00:14:34:07
Kyle
accessing the breadth of your skills would be, like, in a rescue situation.

00:14:34:10 - 00:14:40:29
Drew
I would say. Yeah. Every once in a while we're doing, like.

00:14:41:01 - 00:14:56:11
Drew
We're, we're moving horizontally on on, like, bigger routes and kind of like transferring all our gear horizontally. There's a little bit of rope access there.

00:14:56:13 - 00:15:05:09
Kyle
For, for people who aren't necessarily interested in turning this into a career, would you recommend, like a recreational climber? Climber? Get a level one certified for their own safety?

00:15:05:12 - 00:15:28:09
Drew
No. I think like the kind of the funny thing is, is you with with rope access, you're, you're on some like pretty burly systems, you know, like everything is super redundant and you're on two ropes, so you have your main line, then you have a backup line just in case of your, your main working line fails. And so you're always in this like state of like everything is so backed up you're super save everything so redundant.

00:15:28:11 - 00:15:45:13
Drew
And then like after long workweeks I would go back and start climbing like fiddle in a small not unlike. Whoa. Like, this is sketchy. You know, I wish I had two ropes and so, like, it can kind of screw with you a little back

00:15:45:16 - 00:15:49:20
Kyle
It's like, so safe that when you actually go to lead climbing, tragedies like this is fucked

00:15:49:22 - 00:15:53:05
Drew
Yeah. Yeah. We're normally is is I, I wouldn't think anything of this.

00:15:53:07 - 00:16:00:05
Kyle
Interesting. The interesting that it works the other way. Like you can numb yourself to risk if you're in it all the time, but then you like get desensitized to

00:16:00:07 - 00:16:22:04
Drew
Because like you're always talking risk like yeah you're safety meetings. You know risk. You know, you go, you rig your ropes, you get on the radio with your partner like this is rig, you know, this is backed up all the things. So it's like constant, you know, OSHA is involved and you're on these wind farms. And so they're super anal about safety and so it's just like drilled into you.

00:16:22:06 - 00:16:32:01
Drew
And then you go out and you can do whatever the hell you want and just like run out of pitch and you're like, woo, I don't want to do that.

00:16:32:04 - 00:16:32:27
Drew
Totally.

00:16:33:00 - 00:16:41:27
Drew
Totally. Yeah. It's funky. So yeah, I wouldn't recommend, but unless of like, someone's super geeky or like, wants to work in SA, I think that that might be a thing.

00:16:41:29 - 00:16:54:20
Kyle
It's cool to know though I think that like we all are always in search of knowledge and like, at least for me, it's like hard to always just get it off of YouTube. You want something that's like real and concrete. And so you hear about these. I read it in scratch courses for the first time. You're like, alright, cool.

00:16:54:20 - 00:17:14:13
Kyle
Like that sounds like a good idea. So it's nice to hear. It's refreshing to hear that. It's like, yeah, it's unless you're looking to get nerdy about it or maybe get this, it's just like you can learn other elsewhere. It seems like you started your journey. Like your climbing journey specifically like through a lens of advocacy.

00:17:14:15 - 00:17:16:25
Kyle
Like, walk me through that process.

00:17:16:28 - 00:17:20:19
Drew
Yeah.

00:17:20:22 - 00:17:44:07
Drew
Yeah, it really was like, probably like a year and a half ish into climbing. When I was living in Upper Peninsula, Michigan, when I was kind of introduced to, like, you know, there's more to it with, with land managers in that, you know, there's a lot of private land and it's like, oh, we can climb here.

00:17:44:07 - 00:18:09:15
Drew
But it's kind of quiet and, kind of started to like, look at this as like, okay, this is more complex. There's more to it than than this. Like putting my crap in my backpack. School's out. Let's go climbing. And so it kind of to, like, it opened up my eyes a little bit more of the landscape.

00:18:09:17 - 00:18:32:22
Drew
And, as I opened up my eyes, I started to see a little bit more bits and pieces and start to get more complicated and more nuanced and like, I think you start seeing more trash on the ground and, more people like behaving inappropriately or being loud and rambunctious and like, you know, dog is chasing deer and all this stuff.

00:18:32:22 - 00:18:49:27
Drew
And it's like, oh, like, okay, you know, I'm. Yeah, I'm drinking beers at the crag, having fun with my friends. But like, we're we're kind of being a little, little too much. And then there's people like hiking, trying to enjoy the space. And it's like we were being noxious, you know? So I think.

00:18:50:01 - 00:19:09:11
Kyle
I mean, there's there's a difference there between, like, just being a good human and having like, empathy towards others people's experiences versus like maybe looking that through the lens of like, how can I effect bigger change? Or like how or how does this affect the climbing community at large? I think that, like, those are two different lenses to look at that situation.

00:19:09:11 - 00:19:19:21
Kyle
So like, how did you have that kind of bigger picture? Like did someone, did you have like a mentor or someone that taught you like the bigger picture of the effect of the climbing community at large?

00:19:19:23 - 00:19:54:01
Drew
Yeah. I, I wouldn't say it was geared towards climbing, but it was a professor in college, Cheryl Teeters. I went to school for outdoor recreation. And so it was kind of we all joke that it was more of like a philosophical, degree rather than, like, a hard skill thing. And, you know, she would talk about the outdoors in more of this philosophical approach and our impact, how we interact with, with the space, and also that things aren't, guaranteed.

00:19:54:04 - 00:20:18:03
Drew
And so I think that kind of zoom me out a little bit more and then, I kind of for like a senior project, I reached out to the outfitter out there, downward sport. So I'm like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this thing at this crag called Slides Bluff. Doing it like a cleanup. What do you think?

00:20:18:05 - 00:20:44:09
Drew
And some people in the community were able to get me a hold of the land owner. And essentially, this crag is like people would just go to the top of in throw crap off. There's like old cars, you know, old rusty things. It's right next to old copper mine. Or iron mine. And so just like, very like not cared for and showed up and like, hey, like, I would love to clean up this place would be okay.

00:20:44:09 - 00:20:45:24
Drew
And he's like, oh, I'm not sure.

00:20:45:27 - 00:20:47:02
Drew
Whatever.

00:20:47:05 - 00:21:14:07
Drew
Got a hold access fund had an adaptive crag and and cleaned up some stuff there and eventually, which is kind of a cool line of the story when, when that gentleman died, he left the land to his children and, the, people up there. Now, it's the Upper Peninsula climate. It's coalition. They approached them about maybe purchasing the land.

00:21:14:09 - 00:21:50:22
Drew
The siblings got together, and then they just gave it to the Climate Coalition. And so it's like, you know, this little seed kind of turned into something bigger. Now they own that crag. They're the stewards huge, huge success. And so I think, like that's really ceded a lot. Just that little breaking with this landowner doing a little clean up, you know, all the access fun and now looking back, like now they own this crag.

00:21:50:25 - 00:22:15:10
Kyle
Yeah. That's why I said it's probably not a not a common story to just, like, have it land acquisition like that. Yeah. But a really good reminder. And just like such a cool foundational memory for you, just like the impact of, like your efforts and like what it can actually do. And it's like, sure, maybe you're not be able to recreate that exact situation again, but it's like the the spirit of what you're doing was just like, so like profound at that moment.

00:22:15:12 - 00:22:36:20
Drew
Yeah. And I think that's like, you know, it's know we we we have these micro like influences on people or, you know, every once in a while, some someone says something and just like, hits home, you know, we're impacted by that. And so, yeah, I think as, as climbers like these little actions can really lead to something positive later down the road.

00:22:36:20 - 00:22:39:02
Drew
We just might not see it. At the time.

00:22:39:04 - 00:22:45:27
Kyle
You had said something, you said, climbing is a privilege and not a right. What do you what do you mean by that?

00:22:46:00 - 00:22:56:26
Drew
Yeah. You know, I think like kind of when I say that I, it's kind of through the lens of of a land manager in a sense.

00:22:56:28 - 00:23:00:16
Drew
Where it.

00:23:00:18 - 00:23:27:26
Drew
Like being on public land, there's so much going on with like sensitive species, cultural resources. And so, you know, when climbing and these things come, come to head, I think it's really easy for a land manager to say no climbing because like, we need to protect the resource. And so, you know, for examples, think of like Devil's Tower in Wyoming.

00:23:27:29 - 00:23:46:26
Drew
You know, there's a seasonal closure, I think in June, you know, which it's it's sacred to that, to that tribe there. And so if it was like my right. Well, well screw that. I'm just going to go climb by like climbers. Respect that. And so I kind of take that as like like a privilege. Like, you know, this is a privilege.

00:23:46:26 - 00:24:12:12
Drew
We can climb here for 11 out of the 12 months. So when you respect that areas like, Waco tanks, bouldering down there, like you need a guide because it's such a archeological site, so you can't just waltz in there. And so I think that's another like example of like, this is a privilege. Like there are we can climb with these regulations.

00:24:12:14 - 00:24:34:18
Drew
And then even like down in Bears Ears National Monument, where that's, a very interesting thing because, it's essentially so you have the tribes and then you have the United States government coming up with a plan of how to manage this area. And you can kind of think of it as like, I mean, these tribes are a sovereign nation.

00:24:34:20 - 00:25:00:02
Drew
You can think of it as Mexico in the United States, having a park in Mexico, managing it. And so these areas are sacred. I get that. And for climbers to come in and advocate like we want to climb here, we've been climbing for a long time. Like, what can we do to make this work? And so again, I kind of look at that as like we're getting the privilege to climb in these areas rather than it's like.

00:25:00:02 - 00:25:00:20
Drew
Earth.

00:25:00:22 - 00:25:25:19
Drew
Flat out. Right. And like I was kind of thinking about this on my way, way over here. And I think if things are kind of looked at as a privilege rather than a right, I think we show up differently. And, I was kind of thinking about, you know, like kind of the right to bear arms. You know, I felt I feel like if that was more of a privilege in our culture, we would treat a little differently.

00:25:25:22 - 00:25:27:20
Kyle
I mean it is you look you can lose it,

00:25:27:20 - 00:25:28:22
Drew
You can lose it.

00:25:28:24 - 00:25:36:14
Drew
But, not a lot of people view it that way. You know, this is my God given right. And so I.

00:25:36:14 - 00:25:39:15
Kyle
can't exactly give a climber a felony and be like can't climb anymore buddy.

00:25:39:17 - 00:25:40:13
Drew
Yeah, totally.

00:25:40:13 - 00:25:40:27
Drew
Totally.

00:25:40:27 - 00:25:41:08
Kyle
Yeah.

00:25:41:12 - 00:25:42:01
Drew
So I think.

00:25:42:01 - 00:26:04:27
Drew
It's just like a, a good thing to kind of like approach it that way, that it's it's not set in stone. It can be taken away. There can be friction, there can be limitations. And so if I have a privilege, how do I show up with that privilege and to and to not lose it? It's like a child with, you know, their keys to the first car,

00:26:05:03 - 00:26:05:24
Drew
stolen a racket.

00:26:05:29 - 00:26:24:29
Kyle
Yeah I know I love that, I love that sentiment and I love that that approach. It's like if we do view this as, as a privilege and not a right, it changes how we approach it in the first place. And I think that's really important. I do like to like when it comes to consequences for not viewing things that way.

00:26:25:01 - 00:26:47:25
Kyle
I like to try to like, I'm in my life. I've always lived like pushing the edge. Where's the boundary? What? Like what happens on the other side of these boundaries that are laid out for us? Like what lies on the other side of when the climbing community does not respect areas like what? What are the real consequences that we, we see as a climbing culture or climbing community?

00:26:47:25 - 00:26:57:16
Kyle
Like, is there an example? Like what are the real, real felt consequences for not behaving in a way that's ethical and honestly

00:26:57:18 - 00:27:03:13
Drew
Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like fuck around and find out, you know, like like pushing those boundaries. What happens

00:27:03:13 - 00:27:27:26
Kyle
like because, you know, people talk about banning climbing and I don't really see how that's enforceable. And so I'm always like, obviously I'm not advocating, you know, for mal behavior or malfeasance, but like, I always like to know, like, are there like because it's so easy if you can give people a concrete example of like, yes, like if we don't get our act together as a climbing community, we don't behave like we should.

00:27:27:28 - 00:27:37:25
Kyle
This is what happens. Like, has something happened that way that can be used as like an example on like how what what we do physically lose if we don't behave in the right

00:27:38:03 - 00:28:13:10
Drew
Yeah. I mean, there's nothing that comes to my mind. And there has been, like, restrictions of, like, certain code on, like for the Forest Service being enforced in this, how it's interpreted. With like, bolting moratoriums, things like that. I feel like that is fuck around and find out and be an example. And like, you know, for climbing to be like to be banned.

00:28:13:13 - 00:28:17:15
Drew
Yeah. Like I see, like lawsuits happening, but I don't have any examples

00:28:17:18 - 00:28:38:04
Kyle
the only example I, I can see are like indigenous lands where, like, like Bears Ears or a monument Valley or Shiprock, like these areas like climbing is banned, like you're not supposed to climb there. And I mean, like, the worst thing that could happen if you climb there, you're going to get a ticket, you're going to get arrested by the indigenous police or whatever, like it is enforceable.

00:28:38:06 - 00:29:05:02
Kyle
But yeah, like, I don't know, I think that like, as climbers in general, we are a rebellious group. It's like built in our blood, like it's just who we are. And so I think it's in our nature to question rules. And I think a lot of the climbing community is definitely very much, like, scare you into silence or, you know, like, it's like kind of it seems like this very like we all need to do this without any explanation of why sometimes.

00:29:05:02 - 00:29:21:29
Kyle
And so I like to try to just, like, be real and paint that picture of, just like, this is what we have to lose. Like, this is you know, why everybody is so, like, loud and important, like why we need to be like this, why we need to behave like this is because there are real risks involved.

00:29:22:01 - 00:29:35:24
Drew
And it's like, you know, I'm sure there's someone out there that could, you know, add more to it. But, you know, I feel like at times we're just like, we're in uncharted waters, like, we don't know what could happen. And

00:29:35:28 - 00:29:39:11
Kyle
let's behave in a way that's positive and let's not find out.

00:29:39:12 - 00:30:06:05
Drew
Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. And like, you know, like, I guess I think of some private lands, you know, like. Yeah, up in Salt Lake City, in Little Cottonwood Canyon, there's 140 acre plot called The gate. Patrisse is it's we actually lease leads to that through the LDS church. And they have they have their vault there, and their vault has a whole bunch of, like, geological records.

00:30:06:08 - 00:30:32:15
Drew
At least that's what we're told. And kind of the, the thing people climbing there since the 60s. And when we got that lease and I think 2007, 2017, it was like, all right, your main job is to keep climbers away from the vault, steward it however you want to keep people away. Then we'll be happy because people come wandering in and so, like, that's, that's that's our agreement.

00:30:32:17 - 00:30:40:03
Drew
And, people keep wandering in there, you know, they're going to be like, you're not doing your thing.

00:30:40:05 - 00:30:49:11
Kyle
There's been examples of Colorado. I think there was a crag that closed relatively recently within the last two years. Right. Like it was a private landowner. And it was just like that, was it? No more climbing

00:30:49:17 - 00:30:50:07
Drew


00:30:50:10 - 00:30:51:09
Drew
Yeah. I'm not sure.

00:30:51:11 - 00:30:58:27
Kyle
Yeah, I would say like. Yeah, like indigenous lands, private lands. Those are the ones that hold real consequences where, like, it's not federally owned.

00:30:58:27 - 00:31:18:03
Kyle
It's not wilderness areas on a national park. Like, I think the logistics of actually banning climbing in a national park or wilderness area is just blatantly unenforceable. Do we want a bunch of legislation around climbing in those areas because we've been acting terrible? Definitely not. You know, we don't want to go down that road. But I think that like.

00:31:18:03 - 00:31:33:12
Kyle
Yeah, private lands is that that's where like the hard cost of, of misbehaving is going to be felt. It's like private land or has every right to go up with a gun and be like, this is my property, get the fuck off my land. And so, like, that's where you can actually lose access completely.

00:31:33:14 - 00:31:55:10
Drew
But I think a big thing is, is to like, if we show up the best way we can, you know, in the land manager, see that? And then when they're talking to their superiors, when they're talking about land management and they're making the decisions, you know, the local ranger can be like, you know, I've been working with the climbers.

00:31:55:10 - 00:32:10:29
Drew
They care, they show up. They take care of these places. Like like I'm not a climber myself, but like, I'm an advocate for that. And that goes a long way. And so, I think that speaks volumes to.

00:32:11:02 - 00:32:12:27
Drew
Of it.

00:32:12:29 - 00:32:15:29
Drew
But, you know, if we're a dick, he's been like, screw them.

00:32:16:01 - 00:32:19:13
Kyle
it's really hard to gain that respect back once you lose it.

00:32:19:15 - 00:32:19:21
Drew
one.

00:32:19:28 - 00:32:21:24
Drew
Person.

00:32:21:26 - 00:32:39:28
Kyle
word spreads fast, too, like, I would imagine, like landowners on these areas, like, they're probably well connected. They probably have, like, connections in the local government, local communities. And like, if you lose respect there, you're going to lose respect elsewhere, like in areas you weren't even expecting. And again, yeah, it's really hard to gain that back.

00:32:40:00 - 00:32:46:05
Kyle
And unfortunately one bad climate can ruin it for an entire community. Yeah.

00:32:46:07 - 00:33:16:22
Drew
Yeah. I guess another thing I just was just thinking of in Saint George, Mose Valley, the Baldwin area. Have you heard much? What's going on there? So, so essentially there's this, this northern corridor project where, the Utah Department of Transportation wants to build a road that kind of bypasses parts of, I-15 and goes into Saint George, but it's going to go through like a conservation area, which would just set a whole precedent, how much it does of tortoises out there.

00:33:16:22 - 00:33:48:27
Drew
And so, kind of right now they're like, well, if we don't build this road, we're going to build houses where most valley is. But if you let us build this corridor, we'll know houses. So it's kind of this like quid pro quo thing going on, which is very complicated with the state. And so, you know, that's a huge resource for that community, for Utah and even just for the United States, people of Boulder and most Valley.

00:33:48:27 - 00:34:11:00
Drew
And so that's like, we don't know what's going to happen. And like the city, the city, the state, the county, like everyone has their hands on it because it's sitting on LA land, which is land that the state owns when they sell it, a lot of that money goes back into, funding schools, and so they sell it to the highest bidder.

00:34:11:03 - 00:34:17:08
Drew
It's just to make money. So it's, you know, nothing's nothing's guaranteed there.

00:34:17:11 - 00:34:33:10
Kyle
yeah. And unfortunately, climbers don't really have that, like monetary power. It's like we aren't bringing a bunch of revenue to the area. You know, it's like, do you want a housing complex or do you want a bunch of these dirty climbers that love climbing there? It's like,

00:34:33:12 - 00:34:41:24
Drew
Yeah, but there is, there is a significant like not enough to ignore. Like the amount that recreation brings in

00:34:41:27 - 00:34:43:08
Kyle
The tourism.

00:34:43:10 - 00:34:48:28
Drew
but again, like $1 million house. That's easier to, to sell for sure than.

00:34:49:01 - 00:35:04:16
Kyle
Yeah. I mean, it sucks that money rules the world. Like the housing complex here at Blue Diamond. Yeah, that whole thing too. There's like one, one main guy who's been, like, pushing to build there. And everyone's been pushing back. No one wants it. But he's super connected. He's bribing people, he's blackmailing people. And like he won.

00:35:04:21 - 00:35:07:17
Kyle
And now there's going to be houses up there. Money talks.

00:35:07:20 - 00:35:25:08
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00:36:20:08 - 00:36:27:04
Kyle
to me about the first time you really realized, like, the weight and importance of having, like, good, established, fixed anchors

00:36:27:06 - 00:36:30:28
Drew
Yeah, yeah.

00:36:31:00 - 00:37:03:00
Drew
Yeah. So I think that is like, ten years ago. Ten years plus. Yeah. My buddies Scott and I, we were climbing the northwest phase of Half Dome. It was like just after 4th of July and, woke up in the valley. It was just after, like, a huge, like, three day thunderstorm, just torrential downpour. And, walked up there, went up the slabs, kind of noticed how, like, all this crap was just kind of everywhere.

00:37:03:00 - 00:37:25:14
Drew
I just kind of assumed it was from the storm, started climbing, got to the Robbins Traverse, went through the Robbins Traverse and was going to kind of start making our way into the chimneys, and there's no longer a flake that you could traverse over. It was gone. And it took me a while to really, like, realize that it was gone.

00:37:25:17 - 00:37:34:16
Drew
Because I just started climbing up the the down climbing variation of the free section. I'm like, this doesn't feel right. See, anchors over there. And my.

00:37:34:18 - 00:37:35:11
Drew
Buddy Scott.

00:37:35:11 - 00:37:40:07
Drew
Goes up and he looks he's like, yeah, this thing's fucking gone.

00:37:40:09 - 00:37:43:11
Drew
And then is at the scale. Oh yeah.

00:37:43:13 - 00:38:09:27
Drew
And and like, you know, hundreds and hundreds of people have slept on that ledge there and like kind of jogging memory of like, oh that's why like the dust slabs are so annihilated. The spring was missing. And so like we build from there and now we're just talking about, you know, just that, you know, up there and it's just like, you know, being kind of poor.

00:38:10:00 - 00:38:31:19
Drew
You're just like, which is kind of funny. You have like $1,000 of cams on you and you're like, like, yeah. Do I leave a cam or do I leave a nut? You know, do I leave this ratty drawer or is lit ratty sling? But, you know, you're just piecing things together. You're finding old bills stations and just like, okay, that was kind of fucked up.

00:38:31:21 - 00:38:53:19
Drew
If there is, like, you know, a two bolt anchor station, like, there would have been a no brainer. But, you know, we're in the mountains. And that was different. And so I think that kind of like I think given the unique situation we were in, I was like, this is it would have been nice to have something better.

00:38:53:22 - 00:39:03:22
Drew
And this is super unforeseeable. It wasn't that we were unprepared. It wasn't that, you know, weather came in. It was just like, we cannot go.

00:39:03:24 - 00:39:04:23
Drew
We gotta go down.

00:39:04:26 - 00:39:08:19
Kyle
What was the sketchiest thing you rapped on?

00:39:08:22 - 00:39:10:16
Drew
It provides, like, a single nut.

00:39:10:19 - 00:39:12:26
Kyle
with a backup and then pull out the second one? Yeah.

00:39:12:27 - 00:39:19:23
Drew
Kind of thing. So, like, I think, you know, we wouldn't have done anything. It wouldn't been like a micro.

00:39:19:26 - 00:39:21:06
Kyle
Still single piece of prose.

00:39:21:06 - 00:39:21:27
Drew
totally.

00:39:22:00 - 00:39:22:14
Drew
Totally

00:39:22:14 - 00:39:24:19
Kyle
unnerving. I've done it once. It's

00:39:24:21 - 00:39:26:16
Drew
on a budget.

00:39:26:18 - 00:39:31:06
Drew
Yeah. And like, I'm, I'm kind of the one who is drawing the short straw.

00:39:31:09 - 00:39:36:04
Drew
But my, my buddy is way bigger, so I'm always the one going last kind of thing.

00:39:36:06 - 00:39:38:13
Drew
But yeah.

00:39:38:15 - 00:39:41:03
Drew
So yeah, that was another that was a weird one.

00:39:41:05 - 00:39:56:21
Kyle
That's wild. And you were just like, people shouldn't be in this situation. Basically like this. This is a route that so many people are on. If people want to bail halfway up this route, they should be able to do so safely.

00:39:56:24 - 00:40:20:18
Drew
Yeah. Like, yeah, I know that's kind of a double edged sword, but it kind of got me thinking of like, where is that boundary? Into I guess on top of that story is like when we got down there was a, I think, a group of 3 or 4 Chinese. We got down and they just showed up and they did not speak any English.

00:40:20:20 - 00:40:40:12
Drew
And so we were trying to communicate with them like, this does not go, this thing is missing. And they're just like and like the best we could do is like we pulled out our topo, showed them the pitch, and it's like a big X gone. And, you know, we walked out of that like I hope they got the message.

00:40:40:15 - 00:40:53:17
Drew
And so yeah, I don't know what happened to them. But if there was another party that was less experienced guy in that situation, who knows, who knows what happened.

00:40:53:20 - 00:41:06:11
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah, that's a tough one to like. Part of part of that route is the commitment. And like if you could bail at any point, it like almost takes away from the character of the round in a way.

00:41:06:13 - 00:41:07:09
Drew
100%.

00:41:07:12 - 00:41:12:29
Kyle
so yeah, I mean we'll get into the, the Phillies like risk philosophy of like bolts and stuff a little later.

00:41:12:29 - 00:41:28:21
Kyle
But yeah. So a little bit like pact. So, you know, we're on the topic of fixed anchors now, like you guys run a professional anchor maintenance crew. What's like the biggest rebuilding project you've handled so far?

00:41:28:23 - 00:42:00:14
Drew
Me? I will, I would say like the program itself. It's probably the biggest thing that's done was rebuilding the, the, pipe dream cave in Maple Canyon that was like when they first started off. And it's it's one of the bigger caves in Utah. So many roots, so many variations, just just crap everywhere. And they spent two weeks out there and they pre bolted the whole thing I can't imagine I can't remember how many bolts by such an undertaking.

00:42:00:16 - 00:42:32:14
Drew
And that was kind of the, the big project to prove to the community that this program can work with community like community like backing and, because it's like people are whipping all over the place, you know, it's just like, yeah, you know, 514 you out there. So. So I would say that was kind of, got like kind of the street cred.

00:42:32:16 - 00:43:00:03
Drew
I was not a part of that project. You know, looking back, you know, with the team, you know, it very is like, you know, we're bolted another steep crag called the compound. You know, I think that was a huge success. Revolting big features and little Cottonwood Canyon. So there's the thumb. I mean, I can't remember how many, like, pitches.

00:43:00:03 - 00:43:33:09
Drew
The whole thing goes up. It's like eight, but there's, like, so many roots that go up and so, like, showing up, getting the rope set, you know, having our, our, our thoroughfare of ropes teams at different levels, you know, making the daily commute all the way up to the top. And we were revolting a lot of these, all these roots that were put up and lead, you know, going home for Hall, you know, holding that character and, you know, updating, you know, quarter inch button heads to, to get glue ins.

00:43:33:16 - 00:43:45:08
Drew
And so like, yeah, I feel really bad because that was last year's first project. I'm like, hey guys, let's go. And like, we were all destroyed. But like, I was so proud of those guys.

00:43:45:08 - 00:43:57:18
Drew
And just like even all the little things, you know, there's I think every project we do like revolting old crag revolting multi pitch. This is so much work goes into it and so

00:43:57:23 - 00:44:06:15
Kyle
to me a little bit about logistics. Like, how are you rebuilding it? Cave like, bottom up, top down, like, how are you accessing getting there without actually physically climbing there.

00:44:06:18 - 00:44:31:11
Drew
Yeah. Yeah. So like if it's a route that's above our pay grade you will still clip up, put the rope in in the drawers and then we'll, we'll have the line fixed through the drawers and then one coming down the ground. So you kind of always have this like continuous like circle. And so you kind of have to do it in stages.

00:44:31:11 - 00:44:38:03
Drew
And so you get the rope up, you come down and then you get your drill. Then you go up and you drill a new hole. You really can't go.

00:44:38:05 - 00:44:38:20
Drew
For hole.

00:44:38:24 - 00:44:49:22
Drew
And seep stuff, because you need that bolt to keep you in. So you do that, drill your holes, go up, come back down, transition to to gluing or installing the bolt.

00:44:49:25 - 00:44:50:17
Drew
Go up.

00:44:50:19 - 00:45:02:28
Drew
Put the glue in, come back down where for the glue to cure. Go back up. Transition the drawers from the old bolts to the new bolts.

00:45:03:01 - 00:45:06:01
Drew
Remove the old bolt patch.

00:45:06:03 - 00:45:16:15
Drew
Go all the way back up, and then, Then you remove the old anchor. Switch to the new anchor. So? So it's just a constant.

00:45:16:17 - 00:45:17:05
Drew
It's a lot of work.

00:45:17:10 - 00:45:18:02
Drew
It's a lot of work.

00:45:18:06 - 00:45:20:25
Drew
Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah.

00:45:20:27 - 00:45:29:01
Drew
Yeah. Everyone's thrashed. That's why we do. We do a week on, week off because it kind of need definitely a few days to recover after that.

00:45:29:01 - 00:45:29:06
Drew
And

00:45:29:06 - 00:45:31:07
Kyle
your team's full time doing this.

00:45:31:09 - 00:45:34:26
Drew
Like seasonal part time I say so like.

00:45:34:28 - 00:45:35:14
Drew
What's that. Do you

00:45:35:14 - 00:45:36:02
Kyle
have another job.

00:45:36:06 - 00:45:50:25
Drew
Oh, so I'm full time. Yeah. The team. The team? Some of them are guides. Some work at, gear store. Do, work, work. I hate work, so. So they kind of, like, pepper it in with their other work.

00:45:50:28 - 00:45:53:18
Kyle
And you're able to compensate them for their time financially,

00:45:53:21 - 00:45:55:07
Drew
for sure. Yeah.

00:45:55:09 - 00:46:01:23
Drew
Yeah, they're all paid. Yeah. And, you know, we have insurance, and so if anything happens at work.

00:46:01:26 - 00:46:02:15
Drew
They're covered

00:46:02:18 - 00:46:06:13
Kyle
Are people applying for these jobs or is it based off of like reference and network?

00:46:06:15 - 00:46:22:23
Drew
Yeah, like I do get, people. Hey, if you ever need more people on the team, I love to apply. Right now, I've kind of found the secret number to be at 5 a.m. myself. When we do have an opening, I definitely open up to.

00:46:22:26 - 00:46:25:06
Drew
For people to apply

00:46:25:08 - 00:46:29:27
Kyle
How do you know when bolts need to be replaced?

00:46:30:00 - 00:46:32:12
Drew
Yeah.

00:46:32:14 - 00:46:37:08
Drew
I mean, like, the obvious things, you know, a lot of older bolts, like button heads, like quarter inch.

00:46:37:11 - 00:46:58:17
Kyle
how do you know they exist? How do you know? Like, is it just community outreach? Like, hey, these are fucked up. Like, here's a picture of this man. Like, we need to get a crew out here. You talked in the beginning a little bit about having, like, data on all these areas, like, talk to me a little bit more about that process, and, like, how much of a pulse you actually have on, like, the lifespan of these bolts and all the crags.

00:46:58:17 - 00:47:08:08
Kyle
And I guess also too, like, are you going to get to a point where you've exhausted replacing retro bolting routes in the Salt Lake City area?

00:47:08:11 - 00:47:09:09
Drew
Yeah.

00:47:09:11 - 00:47:33:07
Drew
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, kind of the first question there. Yeah. So it's like a community effort. So we have like an observation form people somehow like I've noticed this spinning. There's this old bolt here. So community input, having conversations with people at the crag, I think that's huge. You know, I kind of talk about, like, I tend to climb in certain zones.

00:47:33:11 - 00:48:07:27
Drew
Our team tends to climb in certain zones, but there's so much climbing in the Wasatch. And so it's like, where do you climb? What are you noticing? Because if we're not doing where the community is climbing, we're not doing our job. And so the community, it huge. I'll look at this guidebook, you know, 1974, whatever, whatever. And if I know in those that it has been replaced, I have an idea of what those bolts are, and especially who put it up and what style, mount project spent too much time on projects.

00:48:07:29 - 00:48:08:14
Drew
Just.

00:48:08:16 - 00:48:13:24
Drew
Scanning keywords like bolt, anchor, bad slang.

00:48:13:26 - 00:48:14:07
Drew
Tat

00:48:14:07 - 00:48:17:03
Kyle
utilize AI for that yet?

00:48:17:05 - 00:48:19:26
Drew
No.

00:48:19:28 - 00:48:32:13
Kyle
I got to be sick. I think there's this guy out here in Red Rock Canyon who has developed an Eye to Scan Mountain project for people who have left comments that they've baled and left gear, and then he goes and grabs him.

00:48:32:18 - 00:48:33:29
Drew
Yes.

00:48:34:01 - 00:48:46:03
Kyle
So it sounds like you could, like, build something that would allow you to, like, have an automated system that would alert you if someone's, like, commented, like there's a spinner or there's a bull without actually having to scan.

00:48:46:05 - 00:49:09:20
Drew
Yeah, yeah. So like, I don't know like my my friend created a program that says scrapes data. And it's like I can download all the data from this crag and then it spits it out into a spreadsheet. And then I can just like keyword. I don't know if that's over. So so so so I have that.

00:49:09:20 - 00:49:16:28
Drew
And I think that's a really cool, cool thing that she did that I love that. That's like the most like dirtbag but anti dirtbag thing ever.

00:49:17:00 - 00:49:19:13
Kyle
Yeah. He's cleaning up the crags, man.

00:49:19:16 - 00:49:22:16
Drew
Did I think half my creek rack is is

00:49:22:18 - 00:49:24:08
Drew
is booty.

00:49:24:10 - 00:49:25:21
Kyle
Yeah.

00:49:25:24 - 00:49:26:15
Kyle
That's rad.

00:49:26:17 - 00:49:44:17
Drew
So yeah I just like just cause and like wherever I can get data and then, put this in a pile, formulate a plan, and, like, can we work here and then talk to the crew and kind of, like, come out with a little bit of a plan?

00:49:44:20 - 00:49:45:00
Drew
You know.

00:49:45:02 - 00:50:10:05
Drew
I'll probably talk about later, but in the Wasatch, we have a lot of wilderness that's really close to the road currently can't work in wilderness. And so right now, like to kind of what what you asked of like, are we going to exhaust kind of, like I, we're getting to a point where pretty much everything is in a relatively good state that's in non wilderness.

00:50:10:08 - 00:50:23:27
Drew
There might be like little one offs here and there, but then it's like once we are able to work in wilderness, then it's a whole other landscape of bad crap as has been sitting there.

00:50:24:03 - 00:50:27:13
Kyle
can't you work in wilderness?

00:50:27:15 - 00:50:36:04
Drew
Yeah. So it really comes down to like an interpretation of the Wilderness Act that's been standing for a long time.

00:50:36:10 - 00:50:44:24
Kyle
Oh, it's didn't say that. All fixed hardware that exists currently is okay to be there, but no new hardware can be established. Isn't that the law?

00:50:44:26 - 00:50:47:12
Drew
No.

00:50:47:14 - 00:51:10:28
Drew
So like so, like kind of going back to, like, when the Wilderness Act was put in place, you know, there's climbers that were part of this, David Brower being one of them. And so, like, people that were in favor of the Wilderness Act were climbers, mountaineers. They understood that landscape. But within that it was there's language of like, no installations.

00:51:11:00 - 00:51:38:10
Drew
And like that's been the debate ever since. Well, not ever since, but I really didn't pick up until like late 90s, early 2000. And so like is a bolt an installation is a fixed sling around a tree installation is a piton. Or are we looking at buildings or roads, fences, you know, a lookout tower for, for fire, you know, like what is the definition?

00:51:38:10 - 00:52:13:22
Drew
And so that's what it really came down to, of that interpretation in different land managers of like, well, this is illegal. And so it's kind of been like this, like, we can't touch it, but the access fun and, and the climbing community has really, really rallied. And, got, the Protect America's rock climbing act put into the Explorer Act, which was passed about a little over a year ago, which essentially is saying that fixed anchors are an appropriate use of wilderness for climbing.

00:52:13:25 - 00:52:35:26
Drew
And it paves an add a way to potentially maintain anchors in the future, the installation of new anchors, like, you know, I think that's kind of like, still under debate with the land agencies. We're still waiting for guidance. They were given a year and a half to come up with guidance. Probably have about four months left until that.

00:52:35:28 - 00:53:00:24
Drew
So we'll see if they abide by that. So, you know, now, like there's legal Avenue now in it solidifies that fixed anchors are an appropriate use Hugin and and kind of like when I say fixed anchors, I think it's easy to think bolts. But we're also talking about pitons, slings around trees, you know, kind of anything that you would attach itself to.

00:53:00:27 - 00:53:02:26
Drew
That we lose.

00:53:02:29 - 00:53:28:20
Kyle
What about like, you guys are like an established team. There's an organization, there's AES. I definitely know of a few rogue RI bolters that are doing a service for the community, but are doing it under the cover of an an amenity anonymity. What are the dangers there?

00:53:28:23 - 00:53:30:19
Drew
Yeah.

00:53:30:21 - 00:53:52:03
Drew
I mean, that's like this. First off, people going out revolting on their own, using their own money, buying the hardware like that's is the thankless thing. And like, super, super support the efforts. It's just so much work and I understand how much work goes into it.

00:53:52:06 - 00:54:25:06
Drew
Yeah, it, it I think it really comes down to, to the type of person that's revolting in the community that they're in. Where it friction can, can be created between the revolt or in, in the climbing community. So I guess one thing I'm kind of thinking of is up in Logan Canyon, individual and realize that, like, no one is doing any rebuilding work up in Logan Canyon.

00:54:25:08 - 00:54:46:11
Drew
And he took it upon himself to start doing this. And, you know, within the rebuilding space, there's different ways to go about it. Yeah. Do I go hole for hole? Do I put a new bolt next to the old bolt or do I like this is a great line. It has. It can be re-engineered so I can move things over or around.

00:54:46:13 - 00:55:15:25
Drew
And so it's I think it comes down to like what kind of reporter are you and how are you going about it. And so if you're going and maybe starting to move bolts around, repositioning things that can piss some people off and, you know, in this event it piss some people off, we also have a sensitive cliff dwelling species up there called it's like a primrose, which is just a damage to Logan Canyon.

00:55:15:28 - 00:55:17:25
Kyle
I thought you were going to say some kind of human or

00:55:17:27 - 00:55:18:14
Drew
Oh, yeah.

00:55:18:21 - 00:55:21:14
Kyle
Yeah, they're cliff dwellers.

00:55:21:17 - 00:55:32:06
Drew
And like. Where are these roots near that, I don't know, but, like, lamb energy got involved and was like, all right, no more redevelopment.

00:55:32:14 - 00:55:43:01
Kyle
Well, so right there, my guess would be the only reason why the land manager land manager got involved was because of the internal friction that happened in the community in the first place.

00:55:43:01 - 00:55:43:28
Drew
one,

00:55:44:00 - 00:56:13:11
Kyle
And I think that right there is our biggest enemy. It's our cells. It's it's our tension within ourselves. If we are loudly, whether in person, in public or online, which is a public place, and land managers are going to be watching these forums about their land, that people are on, if we are bickering amongst ourselves and showing like not great versions of ourselves and showing we can't like, manage our own shit, that's an easy way for related matters to just shut

00:56:13:14 - 00:56:14:14
Drew
touring.

00:56:14:16 - 00:56:20:01
Drew
And like as a community that I think we pride ourselves for self-policing.

00:56:20:04 - 00:56:28:16
Kyle
I honestly think it's the only way forward because we I mean, this is, I don't wanna say an agreement when we know best, we're the ones doing it.

00:56:28:16 - 00:56:29:11
Drew
we're the experts

00:56:29:11 - 00:56:34:29
Kyle
We should be the ones making the decisions in this realm. But we need to get our shit together and be all in the same fucking page.

00:56:35:02 - 00:56:35:16
Kyle
Yeah.

00:56:35:19 - 00:56:57:21
Drew
And it's, it's unfortunate because I know the climate, the whole climate community in general is not that. It's just like it only takes a few bad interactions and the whole, the whole system starts to crumble. And you know, the unfortunate thing is, is like land managers from all over the country, like take little bits and pieces from other places.

00:56:57:23 - 00:57:14:05
Drew
So like state parks and, and, Tennessee, look at, you know, ranger districts out west, like what are they doing and then apply policy, you know, so it's like there's this a ripple effect that we don't even realize.

00:57:14:08 - 00:57:31:04
Kyle
So like one area closes in the Wasatch Range because of some internal conflict between one guy and, like, a small community, and then all of a sudden, you get, like, closures in, like, northeast New Hampshire or whatever, because those people are connected with that person and they're like, well, it sounds like climbers are bad news.

00:57:31:04 - 00:57:33:09
Kyle
I'm going to shut this down before anything happens to my land.

00:57:33:14 - 00:57:52:28
Drew
Yeah. And it's like, yeah, a law was cited, you know, that's how it's interpreted. And it's another lay manager like, oh, like I interpret that law the same way. And then, you know, with, with working on force for service property, and we have a whole bunch of different but so in the you went to watch oh gosh.

00:57:53:00 - 00:58:17:26
Drew
We have a whole bunch of different Ranger districts. So the Rangers are kind of like the head of their district. And in order to get a promotion in the Forest Service, you kind of have to move forests. So we have this constant rotation of new Red Rangers. And so you don't know if someone's coming in with some bias about rock climbers or if they've been a rock climber themselves.

00:58:17:29 - 00:58:32:29
Drew
And so we're constantly playing this like catch up of like educating and, that it's crossing your fingers that they, that they're friendly. And when you have a friendly ranger who's willing to work with you, run with.

00:58:32:29 - 00:58:34:10
Drew
It.

00:58:34:12 - 00:58:36:15
Drew
Because you don't know you're going to get next.

00:58:36:18 - 00:58:40:24
Kyle
crazy. Such instability there. Yeah. That's wild.

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00:59:42:01 - 01:00:03:06
Kyle
So moving on from rebel team. Bad fixed hardware. I think that's, like, pretty easy for people to get on board with. Like, bolts are bad bolts are going to kill someone. What about, like, adding bolts to routes? I think this is retro bolting. Right. That's what that wrote. That term is, you have a quote here.

01:00:03:06 - 01:00:11:22
Kyle
He says if it's scary, leave it the same. If it's dangerous, change something. Explain the difference from for you between scary and dangerous. When it comes to routes.

01:00:11:25 - 01:00:12:18
Drew
Yeah.

01:00:12:20 - 01:00:22:12
Drew
Yeah. I think that quote came from Boone Speed. When we reached out to him about one of his roots.

01:00:22:14 - 01:00:23:10
Drew
Of.

01:00:23:12 - 01:00:42:18
Drew
Reporting it, and there's a lot of talk I'm on project. Oh, there's a huge run out to the chains. And then it was just like, if it's dangerous, do something. If it's scary, keep it. And I think that was the sentiment of a lot of sport climbing back in the 80s. The there's a lot of friction between them and track climbers.

01:00:42:18 - 01:00:43:15
Drew
It's like.

01:00:43:18 - 01:00:43:28
Drew
Like.

01:00:44:00 - 01:01:07:03
Drew
We want you to make the move instead of just plug in the camp. And so, and I think that's kind of, something we, we, we look at and like, there is a difference. And so, you know, dangerous. Is there potential for landing on a ledge? Can you deck, are there features that you might fall into?

01:01:07:04 - 01:01:17:14
Drew
You know, x, Y and Z? And so those are obviously like, glaring dangerous issues. And if it's just heady, you just have to like zone in and do it.

01:01:17:17 - 01:01:20:19
Drew
Cool. You know, we'll.

01:01:20:21 - 01:01:42:18
Drew
Try to go hole for hole as much as we can. Because like climbing is such a spectrum. And if people are looking for that experience, I don't want to take that away from that. Now, if people want to climb, you know, 510 slab rates.

01:01:42:21 - 01:02:04:18
Drew
Do it. And then they're going to go to Tommy Meadows and just like, crush it and go other places and crush it. And I think that's a a form of pride. And I come from the Wasatch. It's like those people can train on the local crag and then crush, you know, other places. So, so it's a fine line.

01:02:04:18 - 01:02:18:27
Drew
And I think having a group of people to discuss and like, you know, I think you're wrong. I think it's more scary than dangerous, you know, having that dialog and not then bringing in community members to if it gets a little we can't come to a consensus.

01:02:19:03 - 01:02:38:22
Kyle
So how does that work? So, like, you know, I think that the the general accepted rule is like, talk to the first essentialist, right. I think that's like the first thing people go to, but there's like this example where, like, I think stink Deck is a great example. You know, it's like at what is it, five pitches.

01:02:38:22 - 01:02:44:05
Kyle
I think there's a bolt every 50ft. Five, six,

01:02:44:08 - 01:02:45:17
Drew
Yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean I think.

01:02:45:17 - 01:02:46:03
Drew
Yeah.

01:02:46:06 - 01:02:56:20
Kyle
pitch a five, seven. And so you get all these people going up there, and then people are like, oh, wow, this is like a lot more intense than I thought it was. We had a little girl who lost her foot from New Zealand a couple of years ago.

01:02:56:22 - 01:03:16:08
Kyle
And so there's been this push to rebuild that route a retro at that route to make it safer. The first essentialist has, I think, said yes. Go ahead. But then there's this huge backlash from the community or maybe a few loud people that are just like, no, like, this is completely ethically wrong. That would change Snake Dog forever.

01:03:16:08 - 01:03:35:17
Kyle
It's not what it's meant to be. So like, who has the right in the end? Is it a community group consensus? Is it the loudest person wins? Is it the first essentialist? Like how have you guys handled that in your community? Obviously, snake tech is a bigger problem that you are actually going to be solving. But it's a good example

01:03:35:17 - 01:03:36:21
Drew
for this guys.

01:03:36:23 - 01:04:01:29
Drew
Yeah. Yeah. Not totally. Yeah. It's kind of rare that we get into that situation where we're adding a poll, but when we do, it's definitely like, let's talk to the first engineers. If they're like pretty much they are. They've all been like, yeah, go for it. Nick. Totally makes sense because I think a lot of these people as they're aging, they're starting to see their mortality.

01:04:02:01 - 01:04:19:00
Drew
Like they're climbing this stuff they put up years ago and they're like, what the fuck was I thinking? And so I'm like, having these conversations and they're going back and adding more bolts. And so, so they're sentiments changing a little bit more now. And so I think at some.

01:04:19:02 - 01:04:59:25
Drew
It's not like we're going out there and like we want to put bolts between bolts. We want to reachable everything. It's like a really case by case thing. And so I think engaging the community in that way, and especially the first sentence and trying to pull the community, maybe, if there's something that, we need a little bit more of a broader, conversation around, the last two years, we've been having this, Utah new router symposium and kind of like, we've had these bigger conversations of retro bolting and and, trying to.

01:04:59:27 - 01:05:30:16
Drew
Have the conversation that's a little bit more open, less attacking. And I feel like the doors open. We're having these more honest conversations, and I feel like the community is more willing to have it. And, you know, as overcrowding is more people coming into climbing, you know, the kind of the, the new topic is, is like, you know, some of these really run out routes that do not see a single ascent, you know, in a year, maybe as one as every five years.

01:05:30:16 - 01:05:50:28
Drew
Do we add more a few more bolts there to disperse traffic. We're actually gets climbed rather than it just getting cobwebs and like, disappears into, to the oblivion, you know, this kind of. And there's no answer there, but it's just kind of, how do we move forward, the conversation with your community?

01:05:51:01 - 01:06:05:19
Kyle
I think one of those things too is like if, if it's uncharacteristic with the rest of the crag or the rest of the wall, I think there's, there's a conversation there. It's like you got one X rated route on the entire wall. Like why,

01:06:05:21 - 01:06:06:20
Drew
Totally turning

01:06:06:26 - 01:06:14:27
Kyle
And you know, I think other examples, like the back of the year and like, if someone went and retro bolted that you might have World War 4 or 5 and six.

01:06:14:27 - 01:06:19:16
Drew
Well I'm saying well, that's that's a badge of honor for people.

01:06:19:19 - 01:06:36:12
Kyle
And I think that that part of climbing should like I think you already said this, but I think that part of climbing should stay. I think there is like a level of psychological test pieces that need to be there. Because that's certainly that's what people search for in, in, in climbing. And that should not just be like stripped away just because it exists.

01:06:36:14 - 01:06:52:17
Kyle
Like, and, you know, people should people should be educated enough to get like to know what they're getting themselves into. And I guess, like I spoke with someone recently from New Mexico and they're like, you know, there's just not a lot of documentation on some of these routes. And you get onto it and it's just like, it's like, x rated.

01:06:52:17 - 01:07:06:23
Kyle
And it's like, you know, part of that is that you're climbing obscure routes, not a lot of data on them. So kind of be prepared for whatever. But yeah, I mean, if you run into something like that, it's like, oh, I want to make this safer. And it's like, then and it is a mess because it's not your route.

01:07:06:26 - 01:07:14:10
Kyle
And then you got to find the versus test. And, you know, you might piss off somebody who's being the police at that crag. So I can see it'd be pretty

01:07:14:13 - 01:07:42:16
Drew
Yeah, yeah. And that's the great thing about enjoying our public lands is, like, you can go out there and enjoy it within law and reason. And, like, find the experience that you're looking for and the most growth I've ever, you know, gone through as a climber is like being scared out of my fucking mind in the mountains and pushing through and like, telling myself I've come out a better person.

01:07:42:19 - 01:07:45:01
Drew
But, you know, jury's out.

01:07:45:03 - 01:07:46:25
Drew
Totally. Yes.

01:07:46:28 - 01:08:11:15
Kyle
Yeah. You also said, something here that was interesting, and you're like, once the bolts are placed in. It's a community thing. Public land. It's a community thing. Having one person that's a dictator. Having one person is. I guess I wrote this wrong. Having one person that's a dictator. But if you're mean to, if you're not maintaining your route and someone gets hurt, are you going to be the one that holds responsibility for that?

01:08:11:17 - 01:08:26:09
Kyle
And I thought that was great. It's a great point because it's like you probably have come into examples of a certain first essentialist that are digging their heels in to like, well, that's the way it was. I don't want you touching my root. But then like, maybe someone climbs it and they fall and the bolt rips and they die.

01:08:26:10 - 01:08:35:15
Kyle
Like, yeah, if you approach that person to be like, well, you're the one who didn't want bolts here, are you going to pay for this guy's medical bills? Is for sure going to be like, well, no, you know, and that's a mess.

01:08:35:17 - 01:08:36:16
Drew
Totally.

01:08:36:19 - 01:08:43:09
Kyle
Do you have you run into situations like that before? We have people just like digging their heels in?

01:08:43:11 - 01:09:26:29
Drew
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's definitely getting better. But, you know, there are some individuals that have put up their arms of, like, I just don't want you guys to touch it. It's like, okay. But at some point, like we are going to touch is that when you die, and like it's interesting, like that and you know, not it not to, you know, crap on the boomers but generally of that generation and things have changed like, you know, I, it pains me to see another GoFundMe for an accident, you know, that wasn't happening.

01:09:26:29 - 01:09:44:25
Drew
Like, things are affordable, you know, like, things are different now. There's so many people out there. And so, I don't I don't understand the don't read my root. I 100% understand don't add more bolts, but like.

01:09:44:28 - 01:09:46:15
Drew
Like don't touch me at all.

01:09:46:17 - 01:10:07:25
Drew
Yeah, yeah. It's becoming more and more rare, but, you know, there's definitely it's like huge like, there's definitely roots that are of a safety concern that a lot of people claim accidents have happened. And it's, you know, do we add another bolt or not? And like don't even touch it. So it's okay if someone breaks, you know, some dies on it.

01:10:08:02 - 01:10:14:05
Drew
That's, that's, that's on you. And we're trying to save lives here. And where's that line.

01:10:14:07 - 01:10:24:21
Kyle
You. In the beginning of that film you sent me, there was an elderly gentleman who had lost a friend to a failed bolt. Tell me that story a little bit.

01:10:24:23 - 01:10:54:28
Drew
Yeah, yeah, I think that was Jay Smith. Yeah. Yeah. So that that film, I think, they'll be coming out pretty soon here. Yeah. So, yeah, they're climbing a cat wall in the 70s. And, and they're in a party of three. And I think when Jay was cleaning. Cleaning the anchor, it was, I think, like an old Steve Hong, machine bolt.

01:10:55:00 - 01:10:58:11
Drew
And he just leaned back on it, and the thing pulled, and he fell to his death.

01:10:58:14 - 01:11:02:22
Kyle
wasn't, like, a system. Like it wasn't connected to bolts. All the way down.

01:11:02:24 - 01:11:04:25
Drew
Now.

01:11:04:27 - 01:11:06:05
Drew
Was that the only one.

01:11:06:08 - 01:11:26:11
Drew
That is, a trade route? I think you just got in and that was just that top anchor. I think it was his top roping. It. I think that's how the story went. And so like you know we've, we've worked in Indian Creek for two years and we've pulled out those machine bolts and they they are not good.

01:11:26:14 - 01:11:55:23
Drew
They are sketchy, essentially just hole and you just kind of screws something with threads in it and, and so, you know, that that impacted him for the rest of his life, impacted his family. You know, there's think of another accident. And I don't know if you've heard of this one. I think maybe early 2000. There's a gentleman and that one's river gorge and, California outside of Bishop.

01:11:55:26 - 01:12:21:20
Drew
He was eating, still clipping his way up, like a 510 to of do, like, top rope solo clipped in the third bolt. Third bolt pulled all this death. And I think that was like a quarter inch or like a five 16th. And so kind of you had these little incidences that happen every now and then, but like, that's impacts the community so much.

01:12:21:22 - 01:12:33:07
Kyle
What's the worst bolt you've pulled out? Like, how many times do you come across a death bolt?

01:12:33:10 - 01:13:13:06
Drew
You know, probably the worst thing I've pulled out, probably just a classic, like, quarter inch button head. Sometimes they come out really easily. Sometimes they're stubborn. Which is kind of, I guess, a little concerning because there's, I haven't really figured out, like, what's what, but, like, just pull back done. Indian Creek to, like, getting it to some top anchors.

01:13:13:09 - 01:13:34:00
Drew
You know, I wouldn't say it wasn't bad in terms of, like, corroded, but there is these, this older style bolt called legacy bolt that was meant to be removable and how it's removed as you loosen it up a little bit and you just kind of push it in and pull it out. And just with the nature of top anchors and sandstone as they loosen up.

01:13:34:02 - 01:13:57:27
Drew
And so when I got up to this anchor, luckily there's a few other like another bolt or two I just pulled out. Oh. So, shiny stainless steel look great. But if someone just got there and pulled out, that thing would have gone. So, yeah, I don't think rust is really, like, the true indicator of Bad Bolt.

01:13:57:28 - 01:13:58:10
Drew
Yeah.

01:13:58:10 - 01:14:15:00
Kyle
So let's talk about that a little bit more like as, as climbers when we're out there in the wilderness area, Red Rock, wherever. I think it's very easy to show up to any sort of bolt and just clip it and forget it. What can we look for? What are some, like, key signs of, like, wow.

01:14:15:00 - 01:14:25:01
Kyle
Like, I should take a second look at this and double check it? Or should we be doing that to every bolt? Like, how can we discern safety on bolts a little bit better?

01:14:25:03 - 01:14:34:08
Drew
Yeah, yeah, totally. You know, like, if it's spinning, you know, I think that's an indicator. Something is happening. The hanger. Yeah. Just needs it.

01:14:34:08 - 01:14:36:15
Drew
It's loose. Yeah.

01:14:36:18 - 01:14:47:29
Kyle
Now, what what causes it to become loose was do like sometimes I see new, like new looking hardware where the the hanger is spinning a little bit and I just chalk it up to the fact that it wasn't drilled in all the way.

01:14:48:02 - 01:15:12:28
Drew
In. That's two. Yeah. Like, I think there's a lot of scenarios that can contribute to that. So like there's two types of there's two main bolts that would come across out there. And there's one where you do see like a hex head and a hanger and that's typically you're like a five piece bolt. And then there's one that you see with a nut in threads.

01:15:13:00 - 01:15:38:27
Drew
And we and we call those like studs or, wedge bolts. And so with the stud wedge bolts like the nut can come off the hanger can come off, then you can just show up and there's just threads. So like you, that's kind of easily mitigated. You can just put some like tied and tighten it down, with the other piece like the hanger can't come off.

01:15:39:00 - 01:16:01:11
Drew
But if those, like, loosen up, you know, sometimes that's a byproduct of you clip the bolt and you, like, climb out left. So it's always being pulled over. And so it kind of like loosens up a little bit. Or maybe, the hole wasn't drilled in properly or it wasn't tightened enough or it was drilled in,

01:16:01:13 - 01:16:14:18
Drew
Or maybe there's like crap in there. There's dirt. They didn't clean up the hole. But definitely, like, you know, if things are sticking out a lot, you know, that's an indicator.

01:16:14:21 - 01:16:27:11
Drew
You know, like in the black quarter today, like a few of the bolts, I would just kind of wiggle, like, if there were. If the hanger was spinning. Wiggle the bolt and just see the head wiggling. And so there's a little bit of movement in there and.

01:16:27:13 - 01:16:29:15
Drew
Some kind of. But.

01:16:29:17 - 01:16:47:18
Drew
No, but I would say like, it might need to be tightened up. There could be some other factors, like, like in this sandstone. It's, you know, once you start tightening up, it kind of eats away into the hole. And so there's only, only so many times you can tighten it up until it's no longer going to.

01:16:47:21 - 01:17:06:23
Kyle
What are the main ways bolts fail? It almost sounds like the hanger coming off is like the biggest one. Then maybe like the whole bolt pulling out and then what? Like corrosion. Like it just disintegrated on the inside rank those in order of frequency of like how often you might come

01:17:06:25 - 01:17:31:29
Drew
So like corrosion is the biggest thing we deal with in the Wasatch. And kind of how the materials that were being used in like the 70s 80s and early 90s and early 2000 is you have a stainless steel hanger and a plated steel bolt putting those together.

01:17:32:01 - 01:18:03:02
Drew
Electrolysis happens. So it's the two metals are fighting against each other. And once you introduce water in there, like it increases the corrosion. So the hanger is stainless steel. It looks good. The bolt head can look fine, but when you take that thing out, it's just pure rust gunk, water coming out, the whole thing. And so like that's kind of a, like a, like a hidden danger, like, I don't know, it's bad until I pull it out.

01:18:03:04 - 01:18:11:19
Kyle
How do you know? How could you test that? Like if you come up to it, is there like a visual cue of like, these are two plated metals. I need to pay attention to this.

01:18:11:22 - 01:18:48:12
Drew
Yeah. If I think if you know what you're looking for, like, it might, it might take some time behind the wheel to understand the, like the how different chains of plate of steel and stainless steel. But if you know, is like a route from the 90s and has been reported, chances are it's making metals. And so in areas that receive a lot of a lot of water, and like one thing and this is one thing I would love to do some time is we're kind of theorizing a little bit that the Great Salt Lake might have a little bit of a marine effect on some of the, some of the bolts.

01:18:48:12 - 01:19:31:01
Drew
And so like coastal marine areas, stainless steel corrodes where in your area, your environment seals. Seals. Completely good. And so you got to start using titanium. And because of the salt and all that. And so we're noticing that bolts that were installed in Big Cottonwood Canyon, which is Quartzsite in the 80s, are looking a certain way. But bolts that were installed in the you went to mountains which are higher up quartzite, buried under snow for, you know, a fourth of the year pulling those out same, same time they were put in are looking better.

01:19:31:03 - 01:19:37:19
Drew
So, so it's it's a, it's a, it's a theory. We're kind of looking at

01:19:37:21 - 01:19:45:26
Kyle
It's cool. You get so much data, so much time. Like, looking at all these bolts. You get so much information. Yeah, that's rad.

01:19:45:29 - 01:20:08:26
Drew
So, I mean, it's a hard thing, but, like, definitely look for rust. You know, I think rust is a huge indicator, you know, in the environment you're in, you know, areas like red rocks probably not gonna see that much rise. Areas like the Pacific Northwest or you gonna see more the Wasatch. But.

01:20:08:29 - 01:20:16:19
Drew
You know, it's like, I wish I could give someone the formula, but, I mean, there's no.

01:20:16:21 - 01:20:17:12
Drew
Yeah.

01:20:17:14 - 01:20:17:20
Drew
There's

01:20:17:26 - 01:20:25:29
Kyle
out here in Red Rock. There's a lot of. I think I've seen the the hex rivets with, like, they look like bed hangers, like bed frame.

01:20:26:02 - 01:20:28:05
Drew
Oh like like the. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

01:20:28:08 - 01:20:40:24
Kyle
the bits like a threaded screw in a nut on it. Are you, are you clipping those and trusting them or like, Like what? Like because I don't even clip them. I just climb, pass

01:20:40:28 - 01:20:41:26
Drew
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:20:41:29 - 01:20:53:27
Kyle
Like, is that just like a false sense of fear there or like, are these things rock solid? Like. Because, I mean, if they hang it, look, they look like they're like they look great, but they're just like a little brown, you know, a little.

01:20:53:27 - 01:21:02:28
Kyle
They look like surface rust. But other than that, they seem like. No spinning, not loose. Like, would you work on that?

01:21:03:01 - 01:21:23:07
Drew
I mean, like, I would clip it in this big metal pro, you know, but it's that classic thing of, like, like pitons. It's just like, you know, there's a piton there. It's always been there. People clip it, they treat it like a bolt. And then you just hear, like the rhetoric, oh, it's fine. Well it's fine. And so it's not.

01:21:23:09 - 01:21:26:13
Drew
And like, why when, when do we know, you know it's you don't want to.

01:21:26:13 - 01:21:28:00
Drew
Be the guy that throws it.

01:21:28:02 - 01:21:45:29
Drew
Yeah. And like I know like relatively recently you get you guys had that like there's that climber who had a really big accident cracked his head. And I know it wasn't like an anchor failure, but like, you know, you you clip something that everyone says, oh, it's probably fine. You take the whip, then you're that guy.

01:21:45:29 - 01:21:48:04
Kyle
mean that whole thing, you heard exactly what happened there.

01:21:48:09 - 01:21:48:20
Drew
Yeah.

01:21:48:22 - 01:21:51:14
Drew
Didn't his like, rope and clip from something like.

01:21:51:15 - 01:21:52:01
Drew
The

01:21:52:04 - 01:22:19:13
Kyle
rope side carabiner attached to an extended alpine sling, I, I suspect that got crossed loaded. And the rope, either the sling side or the rope side weighted. It sideways and broke the gate. And then the whole thing failed, because the carabiner was nowhere to be found and the sling was just hanging from the not like with no carabiner attached to it.

01:22:19:16 - 01:22:39:14
Kyle
So I think that was just random chaos. Yeah. And it was the nature of the route meant that there wasn't enough pro to have a safety system where like that. That was it. That's all you had. And yeah, if it had arrested, his folly would have been fine, but there wasn't enough pro below it to act as a backup.

01:22:39:17 - 01:23:01:02
Kyle
And it's like, what are you supposed to do? You supposed to put a locker on all your alpine drawers? It's like, maybe not all of them, but like, if you're in a situation where, like, you know, obviously like hindsight is 2020, but like, if you're looking down and you're placing a piece, you're like, okay, if this fails, I'm going to take 100ft or a 50 footer or I'm going to fall way too far.

01:23:01:02 - 01:23:10:29
Kyle
Like maybe I'll put a locker on it, or maybe I'll like opposite as opposed to to, carabiners, you know, like,

01:23:11:02 - 01:23:13:02
Drew
And it's like after in spurts all.

01:23:13:05 - 01:23:14:27
Drew
During trying to take care.

01:23:15:00 - 01:23:20:04
Drew
Sorry sorry. Yeah.

01:23:20:06 - 01:23:29:07
Kyle
Yeah. But again, back to the bolt thing. It's like. Yeah. Do you want to do you want to trust? I will probably hold probably. Yes. But don't you. You don't want to be the statistic.

01:23:29:09 - 01:24:11:01
Drew
Going in like a lot of those, those old bed bed frame hangers, like they're sharp, like people have taken whimpers and like, flayed them, their legs on them. So there's, like, a little bit more, you know, but and that's, that's kind of the thing of like, yeah, I live in this world where, like, you're doing things according to, like how the manufacturer says they're supposed to be used and, you know, buying hardware that's been tested, and selling things to like, manufacturer specs and then.

01:24:11:04 - 01:24:23:13
Drew
Then you go out and you see these, like, homemade things. And I, I love the ingenuity of climbers, but that this is not meant for climbing. Let's put something that is meant for climbing.

01:24:23:15 - 01:24:31:09
Kyle
And even though, like, you know, no, it works. Everybody else is going to come up to it doesn't have that same understanding. Yeah.

01:24:31:11 - 01:24:49:12
Drew
it is cool to come across them. You're like, wow. Yeah, totally. They're everywhere. And I think that's the special thing about climbing is like, again, the ingenuity and you see these relics and you get to kind of like live with it for a minute, clip it, not clip it, move past it, have a conversation about it later.

01:24:49:12 - 01:24:50:25
Drew
And then

01:24:50:27 - 01:24:52:29
Kyle
and on.

01:24:53:02 - 01:25:04:13
Kyle
Do you think that, like, those things should be retro like pre bolted, like those kind of bolts should be taken out and bolt like re bolted with, modern hardware.

01:25:04:16 - 01:25:24:08
Drew
Yeah. I think it comes down like, what's the function of that bolt? Like if it's a label and if it's a, you know, there's a reason why that bolt was there. Maybe there is gear around. And if that's like mandatory and I'm if I fall in, this thing fails, I die like.

01:25:24:11 - 01:25:25:11
Drew
100%

01:25:25:14 - 01:25:29:02
Drew
the day you, What was that again?

01:25:29:05 - 01:25:30:29
Kyle
Scary versus

01:25:31:01 - 01:25:59:20
Drew
Scary versus dangerous. Totally. Kind of like one thing that we've, we've into, like, you know, different bolters and different programs have their standards. And, you know, for us as that's lke like we're going to replace anything that is inadequate. And so one thing that has been a little more challenging for us is working down in Indian Creek is, you know, there's a lot of different types of hardware up at these anchors.

01:25:59:20 - 01:26:19:12
Drew
And there's these old aluminum hangers from Steve Hong, Bandito hangers that will come across. And so like. People like to see those. And I get that, but if we're being hired to do a job, like we're going to remove everything that's

01:26:19:14 - 01:26:19:26
Kyle


01:26:19:28 - 01:26:24:26
Kyle
You wouldn't, like, put a new bolt next to it and leave it as, like, a historical artifact.

01:26:24:29 - 01:26:45:22
Drew
Because it's just like, unfortunately, you can't fix stupid. Someone's going to someone like, let in. Just like the story of J. He clipped into it. And so it's like we're going to remove that. Any possibility. And then like if we come across these, like we're going to give them back to friends, Indian Creek, maybe there can be a museum.

01:26:45:22 - 01:27:12:29
Drew
You can observe it that way. But like we're going to have popular crags, battle of the bulge, super crack. Like the his kind of crag. It's it's sport climbing, sport climbing, trad climbing. And like you're there, you're getting the pitches and to create any like, like nuance or like, oh, what's this thing? But there's a good anchor here of like, let's just get rid of it.

01:27:13:01 - 01:27:20:01
Drew
You can still experience that in the desert. It's just maybe not at like the classic crag.

01:27:20:04 - 01:27:42:14
Kyle
that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. The the what? I'm talking about these hangers I have, there's one rule that keeps coming to mind is times up here in Red Rock, the is put it up and it's like 4 or 5 of those bed hanger bolts, but there's like supplemental tri gear. And so like I'd clip the bolt and then put trap gear and back it up, you know, it's like I would just do that for each one.

01:27:42:17 - 01:27:51:12
Kyle
And I think they were purposely left there for historical because there is drag that you can back it up with. Like there's no real point to chop it. It's like kind of adds to the character of the root.

01:27:51:14 - 01:28:06:27
Drew
Yeah. And that's like you know the climbing community here. It's like that's for them to decide and kind of how they want and, and there's just so much climbing I think there's space for stuff like that for sure.

01:28:06:27 - 01:28:21:23
Kyle
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. It's a harder route to. It's not like a, it's I think it's the 1220 so it doesn't have a lot of traffic. Yeah. And if you're getting on that right you hopefully know what you're doing. Yeah.

01:28:21:25 - 01:28:43:10
Kyle
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01:28:43:10 - 01:29:02:07
Kyle
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01:29:02:09 - 01:29:23:17
Kyle
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01:29:23:18 - 01:29:25:19
Kyle
We only have 1000 more ratings to go.

01:29:25:26 - 01:29:38:18
Kyle
So kind of like circling back to more of like your, your work at the SLK. Like beyond just revolting crags, like, it sounds like you're dealing with policy and land managers.

01:29:38:18 - 01:29:47:25
Kyle
There's like, that advocacy advocacy side of your of your work. What are the like the biggest battles happening right now that most climbers don't know about?

01:29:47:27 - 01:30:22:04
Drew
Yeah. I think, like, essentially just the the assault on our public lands with this current administration is probably the biggest thing. We keep seeing these micro moves to, to strip away that. So, last year there was an attempt to get rid of the Roadless Rule. I think that's still an attempt, which is essentially, I think I can't remember if it was a Clinton era thing or a Biden or not a Biden, Obama thing.

01:30:22:04 - 01:30:54:01
Drew
I think it was Clinton. It essentially created, millions of acres within like Forest Service, land that were essentially set aside for recreation. And it kind of created this buffer between kind of more like urban, extraction, parts of, the Forest Service and like wilderness. And so it's kind of this buffer, you can't go in there log, you can't start mining.

01:30:54:03 - 01:31:19:24
Drew
There's heavy restrictions and building roads. But if there's a fire out there, like, the firefighting crew can still go, you know, build roads to access these things. And so it adds this extra layer of protection. And so a lot of climbing is on these roadless rule areas. And so, you know, if if that was stripped, it would open it up potentially to be logged in mind.

01:31:19:24 - 01:31:30:13
Drew
And so, you know, one day you could go to your crag and then there's mining operation. And so it's

01:31:30:15 - 01:31:56:06
Drew
These protections are trying to be stripped back. You know, this administration wants to extract and, so, so weakening the Forest Service and weakening our, public lands, essentially, you know, whether that's, reducing staffing, reducing their budget, making them look like they're failing because they still have anything to operate with.

01:31:56:08 - 01:31:56:20
Drew
From the

01:31:56:20 - 01:32:02:01
Kyle
inside so that there's not a lot of pushback when policy actually gets made. Yeah. Yeah.

01:32:02:04 - 01:32:10:25
Drew
So, so I would say that's that's the biggest thing. And it comes up in these different, different ways. Whether it's locally within your state.

01:32:10:27 - 01:32:12:00
Drew
With, with

01:32:12:03 - 01:32:13:01
Drew
On a national level.

01:32:13:01 - 01:32:13:23
Drew
So,

01:32:13:26 - 01:32:17:08
Kyle
how can we be more involved to

01:32:17:10 - 01:32:18:08
Drew
pushback.

01:32:18:11 - 01:32:43:21
Drew
Yeah. I think like when, when there's these call to actions, you know, I say that like the Outdoor Alliance is kind of the, the go to on these things. And so essentially the Outdoor Alliance is there's some nonprofit that does a lot of, public outreach and lobbying, but they're made of, the access fund, imbecilic, the international, like mountain biking, like canoeing, rafting.

01:32:43:24 - 01:33:12:01
Drew
So it's a whole bunch of human powered recreation entities work together with the Outdoor Alliance. And a lot of these, these policy things. And so they're really good at, hey, this is what's happening. We need to you write a comment. We need you to reach out to your senator. Representatives, get involved, speak out. Because where your constituent and we don't want this.

01:33:12:03 - 01:33:18:00
Drew
So, I would say stay in tune with them, but especially like climbing specific the access

01:33:18:02 - 01:33:21:12
Drew
fund is really good. And, at the alerts.

01:33:21:14 - 01:33:29:03
Kyle
Yeah. And I mean, just to reiterate, like, our voice matters, even though we have people like the Access Fund advocating for

01:33:29:06 - 01:33:30:03
Drew
100%.

01:33:30:05 - 01:33:42:18
Drew
They can only do so much. Because, you know, when it comes to, you know, election, you know,

01:33:42:21 - 01:34:04:01
Drew
As constituents like, hey, X, Y, and Z, you voted for this and I didn't want you to vote for this. And I am pissed, you know, and these people want to be reelected and they need to represent their constituents, not one person, you know has an Oval Office. So.

01:34:04:03 - 01:34:23:02
Kyle
What about your actual model? So like the Sokka, like I said in the beginning, I think a lot of people are kind of like talking about how as an AE, like, you guys are the people that other AE strive to be. The fact that you have funding for both team, you're able to kind of do so much work.

01:34:23:02 - 01:34:37:20
Kyle
I feel like a lot of AES are more paralyzed and they don't have either. It's because it's funny that it of community involvement or they're, a lot of the land is in wilderness, and so they don't really know how to kind of like, move forward, like.

01:34:37:22 - 01:34:54:11
Kyle
How do you see the s s s lke scalable? Like not necessarily where you guys are the ones doing work elsewhere, but like, how can current AES grow and become kind of like similar to what you guys are doing and be more organized and funded?

01:34:54:13 - 01:35:37:03
Drew
Yeah, I yeah, I think I see how they can do that. I think it really takes a lot of, energy from the community and, and like the board of directors, the people that are. You know, overseeing this purely volunteer organization. And so I guess one thing I'm seeing is, like friends, Indian Creek down in down in Moab, they've been volunteer based, since their conception, and now they're trying to start fundraising to have a part time paid executive director.

01:35:37:06 - 01:35:53:29
Drew
So to scale that. And so, you know, that takes a lot of community outreach, a lot of like, social media, a lot of fundraising, joint memberships with the Access Fund. And.

01:35:54:02 - 01:36:25:04
Drew
Motivate motivation behind the board and also like the community itself. And that's kind of kind of how I'm seeing it. I've been really like, you just kind of walk into this machine that's been working so well. So I haven't really seen those, those growing pains from other AES, but like talking to people out, in Massachusetts and up in the Pacific Northwest, it's like, yeah, they're definitely like, do we have enough work?

01:36:25:04 - 01:36:49:15
Drew
Do we have no projects? We have no funding. Can we afford someone? Like everyone says, there's a lot of like identity, like where are we? Is it needed? And I think that's the big question. Like, is it needed? I think it's always needed. But like, is it needed enough to have someone paid to do the work or are we doing what needs to happen with this volunteer

01:36:49:17 - 01:37:04:20
Kyle
That's interesting. So it's like yeah. Like maybe not every area is going to warrant like a funded crew. If a volunteer basis is going to cover it, it's going to be a lot easier to maintain a volunteer crew.

01:37:04:22 - 01:37:30:15
Drew
Yeah. Yeah yeah. And especially like in the reporting space, you know, we're Salt Lake is a is a huge city. You know USA climbing is there. And so it's, it's kind of this like little bit of center of climbing right now. And we have the brands like, it kind of makes sense to have a reporting thing like this.

01:37:30:17 - 01:38:03:22
Drew
Others like. Yeah, I, I think the volunteer model can work well for sure. If it's, if there's not that much of a need, but kind of I guess what we're all concerned is, if, you know, accidents start happening. You know, we, when we're volunteer, before my time, it was like, worry. The Wasatch Anchor replacement initiative, big volunteer day.

01:38:03:23 - 01:38:30:08
Drew
People going out, friends of friends, people showing up, revolting, the class putting balloons. Someone stole the glue and bolt forgot the glue that pulled out. Luckily, no one got hurt. There's another I think incident, up north where someone reported a route with gluons. The glue didn't mix correctly. Someone climbed it in the next day. Got an anchor.

01:38:30:11 - 01:38:31:05
Drew
Where do the anchor?

01:38:31:11 - 01:38:33:24
Drew
All the bolts pulled out.

01:38:33:26 - 01:39:03:17
Drew
So? So, like, there's these, like, little micro instances with, like, quality control and making sure that, like, everyone knows what's going on. They're doing the thing correctly. And I think volunteer model can work on a smaller scale, just as long as everyone knows what's going on. Because if an accident happens out east, we're affected, and then it might the whole system might come down.

01:39:03:17 - 01:39:24:01
Drew
And so but one thing that I've been trying to do is, encourage people to, to have a little bit more quality control, a little bit more worker safety to avoid any of these things because they're all avoidable. It's just takes time and training and oversight.

01:39:24:03 - 01:39:31:27
Kyle
And the price is the price is larger than just the person who gets injured on the route that wasn't properly bolted. It's a wider spread issue.

01:39:32:03 - 01:40:01:10
Drew
yeah. Because like, like the whole thing right now is insurance. Like, it's a big question mark in this space. If we go out and we bolt something and I don't install the glue and someone gets hurt, what? That. But what is that going to look like? And then now our insurance has skyrocketed. And then, the climbing coalition in Boulder, who has the same insurer as their insurance is going to skyrocket to, you know,

01:40:01:12 - 01:40:04:01
Kyle
there's probably not that many insurance companies that are offering that kind of

01:40:04:03 - 01:40:07:20
Drew
Oh, no, it's it's kind of wild West a little bit.

01:40:07:22 - 01:40:20:09
Kyle
Can this is can someone's if I get injured on a route because a bolt pulled. Can I literally seek legal action against the person who established that bill?

01:40:20:12 - 01:40:21:06
Drew
I don't know.

01:40:21:09 - 01:40:22:18
Drew
That's

01:40:22:20 - 01:40:25:24
Kyle
like you. Just like some vindictive fucker.

01:40:25:27 - 01:40:30:15
Kyle
Like goes to Mountain project. Looks up the first and is just like, I'm going to sue this guy.

01:40:30:18 - 01:40:35:21
Drew
Yeah, I and that's and that's the question. Not to my knowledge.

01:40:35:23 - 01:40:40:14
Kyle
Man. That's that's wild. That would be a dark day if that ever happens.

01:40:40:18 - 01:40:47:16
Drew
And I think that comes back to like the first two sentences like not letting me rebel through is like.

01:40:47:19 - 01:40:48:26
Kyle
It's someone might come after you.

01:40:49:03 - 01:41:04:29
Drew
and so like, you know, luckily in some state services, liability statutes that like, if you're recreating on land and someone's not charging you like, if you get if you get hurt, like you're not going to sue the landowner kind of thing, but like.

01:41:05:02 - 01:41:07:09
Kyle
because you broke your ankle on a rock in wilderness.

01:41:07:14 - 01:41:08:10
Drew
totally.

01:41:08:13 - 01:41:25:12
Drew
But like, you know, these are just big question marks and no one knows. And some people are playing it really close, like to the chest of like, we're not even going to mess with this stuff because there's too much liability or like, you know, stick out her neck and try to figure it out.

01:41:25:15 - 01:41:51:18
Kyle
Yeah. These are some of the interesting questions that come up when you think about climbing scaling like really large because I mean we've seen like massive growth between like 70s 80s, 90s and now. But I mean it's not going to stop. We're going exponential in the other direction. And there's benefits. And just like this, there's some really negative sides to it as well that we're all going to have to deal with as time progresses.

01:41:51:21 - 01:41:55:29
Drew
Like, when was the last time you signed a waiver at a climbing gym

01:41:56:02 - 01:41:57:01
Kyle
every time I

01:41:57:03 - 01:41:57:20
Drew
huge.

01:41:57:22 - 01:41:58:27
Kyle
yeah, it's like five

01:41:59:00 - 01:41:59:26
Drew
Yeah. That's.

01:41:59:29 - 01:42:02:14
Kyle
Yeah, I probably gave away five children that I don't

01:42:02:19 - 01:42:04:09
Drew
Yeah.

01:42:04:11 - 01:42:22:00
Drew
And so, like, I just feel like these things are just getting longer and longer, and these insurance companies are just like, you know, we all know how the insurance, you know, world is now it's it's like maximum profit and like it's.

01:42:22:02 - 01:42:26:11
Drew
Uncharted territory. No one knows.

01:42:26:14 - 01:42:32:05
Drew
So I think that's kind of why we try to have everything buttoned up as much as possible, as much as we can.

01:42:32:06 - 01:42:47:05
Kyle
Yeah I mean that circles back down even to just, what we talked about in the beginning in terms of just like what we can do as a community in terms of like how we come to the table with these areas and how we treat these areas. And, it's prevention. It's not like, fuck around and find out.

01:42:47:05 - 01:43:12:10
Kyle
It's let's stay squeaky clean now so we can mitigate the damage. That's going to occur regardless of how we act, because it's just a matter of scalability. Yeah, it's well, we all bear a lot of responsibility. Yeah. A little bit more on the AE point. Like, I think it could probably be people who are like a lot of people probably don't even know about AES.

01:43:12:10 - 01:43:23:10
Kyle
They're probably just like climb. There's like, oh yeah, it's great. Do you guys have volunteers for your area or is it like, there's probably volunteers that are involved in what you guys do too,

01:43:23:10 - 01:43:23:23
Drew
right?

01:43:23:25 - 01:43:38:21
Drew
Yeah. Like, our border, our board of directors are all volunteers. And then, like, we have event volunteers. They'll show up and help on events for us. People show up, do trail work and pull weeds.

01:43:38:21 - 01:44:00:06
Kyle
Basically. Yeah. I guess what I'm alluding to is like, how important is that? And like, should anybody listening like, I could if I could, I could think it would be easy to just be like, oh, other people are doing it. I'm good. Like, maybe advocate a little bit, just how important like being involved in your community is and like, joining the AES or trying to do your part off or something like,

01:44:00:09 - 01:44:01:11
Kyle
Yeah. How important

01:44:01:13 - 01:44:23:23
Drew
Yeah, yeah. What? In part because like, yeah, we have our gym. But I'm going to assume most people who are climbing have a gym membership. We pay our gym membership, we do that, but then we go to the outdoors and essentially it's free. You know, we have our gear, we have our car or gas or park pass, but we go out to do the thing.

01:44:23:25 - 01:45:02:02
Drew
And yeah, it really takes a lot to do the work, to do the trail work, to do the boat maintenance, like for a year. But I mean, it's it's like a 120 K between labor, insurance and, materials. And then like, a trail project is like $30,000 for five weeks. So it's it's not nothing. And so, you know, and a lot of these grants work in different ways, whether that's like matched and labor or volunteer or in-kind and all this stuff.

01:45:02:02 - 01:45:29:04
Drew
And so, you know, I think there's different ways people can like show up or give back, you know, if you don't have the time giving back financially, like at the end of the day, like that helps out so much because everyone's trying. Everyone's fighting for money. Giving back financially to, I think both your local AE and then the access fund, like, you know, that's okay.

01:45:29:04 - 01:46:00:15
Drew
We have our own membership platform. The access fund has there's we also have a joint membership by giving giving to both where you claim but also the national, showing up if you can't give money but you can give time. Showing up to these volunteer events are huge. Pulling weeds, picking up trash, digging trenches, helping out on the trails because some of these grants, like we can allocate your time as a match for these grants.

01:46:00:17 - 01:46:01:05
Drew
Oh, cool.

01:46:01:06 - 01:46:28:15
Drew
And so that goes goes a long way. So it's like I forget what it is. But like 25 if you work an hour there's like $25 worth match. So so then that can go ways. But also like to like if you can't do that, if you can't give your time, if you can't, offer, financial support, I think showing up at the crag and just being a good human being, a good steward, if you see something, say something.

01:46:28:18 - 01:47:13:26
Drew
And even like if, if you know how to get rid of a one quick link on an anchor to replace it. Huge. If you know how to tie up a loose ball. Huge. Like if everyone is just doing these little things here and there or even like, I know there's not much like bushwhacking out. Well, there's bushwhacking out here, but like, you know, if you're going to the crag and the crags overgrown in the spring, if you have like a little some nippers and you kind of clear that, and if I think if everyone did that it like then, then that gives the aes the people that are experts in the space to focus

01:47:13:26 - 01:47:18:19
Drew
on the bigger projects, rather than these little things that are just like taken a lot of time.

01:47:18:23 - 01:47:28:08
Kyle
Yeah, that's cool. And that would end up like preventing bigger projects from happening in the first place. If you maintain, rather than waiting for it to become an issue.

01:47:28:15 - 01:47:29:11
Drew
totally.

01:47:29:14 - 01:47:53:24
Drew
Totally. And I think to like blame managers. See that like, these people care, they show up. And I think that's the image that I think, you know, as a user group is a good thing to show. And like all about being punk, all about doing our thing. And, you know, we can be rowdy, but like cleaning and cleaning up a room at the end of the day.

01:47:53:26 - 01:48:02:07
Kyle
Leave it, leave it better than you. What is the phrase? Leave it better than you showed up or something like that. I'm butchering it. Yeah.

01:48:02:10 - 01:48:23:26
Kyle
Before we get back to it, if you've been listening to the show, you probably know how much time and effort and love I put into this project. The research, the conversations, the production, the editing, all of it. And while it might seem like I've got a team of people on this project, I don't. It's just me. And even with sponsors, I spend a large amount of my own personal money on this project simply because I love it.

01:48:23:28 - 01:48:47:26
Kyle
If you are a listener that's looking for a way to give back to the show in a meaningful way. Please become a Patreon subscriber. Once you become a supporting member of the Climbing Majority, not only will you feel really good about yourself, but you'll also get access to the ad free version of the show and exclusive content. If this speaks to you, click the link in the description or go to Patreon.com Slash the Climbing Majority podcast to become a supporting member of the show today.

01:48:47:29 - 01:49:03:29
Kyle
for yourself. Like what? You know, I think that though it seems like the revolting work, can be a bit controversial in certain areas. I would imagine in certain areas, it's kind of like the benefits maybe go unseen a little bit.

01:49:04:02 - 01:49:21:21
Kyle
Have you experienced that? And if so, like, basically, what's your passion? Like, why why is this such a passion for you? I would imagine, you know, you could do anything you want. You know, you're a skilled individual like, what about what you choose to do every day with this advocacy and voting? Like, why is it driving you

01:49:21:23 - 01:49:27:08
Drew
Yeah. Yeah.

01:49:27:10 - 01:49:52:13
Drew
I guess, like, kind of going to, like, the, the unnoticed, of the work. I was kind of joking with a friend the other day, and I actually kind of kind of. Memphis. We were talking about drywall in house, and, like, it's one thing that you don't really notice when it's done. Well, and, like, it's kind of hard to do drywall really well, but that it's a seamless it's unnoticeable.

01:49:52:13 - 01:50:13:10
Drew
And I think like, I'm kind of flattered when someone shows up to a crack that we just revolted and they those same thing because it's like things are in place. They're not noticing all this, tad, and it's just like, it, it looks good. So it's well put together. So I actually kind of take that as a compliment a little bit.

01:50:13:13 - 01:50:35:04
Drew
And yeah, you know, a lot of times it is thankless. We do get a lot of, comments from the community of, like, I climbed there one week, came back the next week, and it was all done, like, thank you. And like, that means so much to us. But at the end of the day, like, it is my job.

01:50:35:06 - 01:51:07:22
Drew
I'm getting paid to do this. I'm not going out there like 99% of the people out there revolting, like they're not getting paid. So I realize, like, how fortunate I am in that space. And so, just that being said, yeah, I am getting paid. It is my job. But yeah, it's, you know, I've found that climbing has given me so much in my life.

01:51:07:24 - 01:51:50:19
Drew
It's when I found climbing and got involved in the culture and started traveling and meeting people at the crag. And like today at the Black corridor at this, like people from Minnesota, people from California, you know, it's just like an array of people and everyone's psyched. Everyone's having fun and like, that just brings so much joy. Just to be a part of this community where people are just traveling and just like it's snowing back at home and now it's 80 degrees, you know, and it, to be a part of this group of people enjoying these public lands in a wacky way, climbing doesn't make sense.

01:51:50:20 - 01:52:16:04
Drew
It's arbitrary, it's stupid, but it gives meaning. And, if I can make this smallest dent in a positive way, like, I think that just kind of keeps me going. And I know, like, if I leave, someone else will take take my job, probably do a better awesome. But I think it's just like, how can we keep kind of pushing the envelope?

01:52:16:06 - 01:52:33:25
Drew
Because I'm standing and people are pushing the envelope before me, and this is like, I want to do better. But yeah, you know, sometimes I wonder, like, if I move somewhere, like what else would I do? I don't know, you know, oh, I would figure it out, but.

01:52:33:27 - 01:52:35:15
Kyle
What does the future look like for you?

01:52:35:18 - 01:52:41:04
Drew
For me.

01:52:41:06 - 01:52:57:02
Drew
Yeah. I just want to climb as long as I can. You know, being close to 40, I want to go to, Patagonia, like I shall ten. I love to climb down there sometime.

01:52:57:04 - 01:53:04:11
Drew
Yeah. When I get older, just climbing trees. Sounds great, but on a sailboat. Need shellfish?

01:53:04:14 - 01:53:05:23
Kyle
That's is, like that vision.

01:53:05:23 - 01:53:06:19
Drew
Yeah.

01:53:06:21 - 01:53:22:26
Drew
I'm, Yeah, I'm still. I'm still around ring boxes. I'm still, like, feeling energetic and I want to get a lot of the the hardware objectives out of the way before I can kind of throw in the towel and just, like, chill, climb 2000 like tides.

01:53:23:01 - 01:53:34:19
Kyle
Yeah, I guess we haven't really talked too much about, like, yourself as a climber, around around yourself out a little bit. Like, what are some of your proudest objectives? What do you love? What's the like? What feels your fire for climbing?

01:53:34:19 - 01:53:56:16
Drew
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I lived outside Yosemite for a long time, and so I climbed in the valley a shit ton. Half Dome, you know, a few times, and then some of the big walls and some of the free routes within the eastern Sierras. So climbed the hog a whole bunch, and, like, out in, like Temple Crag and all those things.

01:53:56:16 - 01:54:10:20
Drew
And, at some point it's like I want to climb stronger. So I started a sport climbing a little bit more and kind of got that bug, which, yeah.

01:54:10:23 - 01:54:29:28
Drew
Kind of went down to Cuba last year. And so that's kind of trying to like trying to take it all in. But, you know, one day I'll be sport climbing, the next day I'll be climbing trad routes and local canyons going up to the winds. And so put on a lot of different hats.

01:54:30:00 - 01:54:46:22
Drew
I kind of I like it all, but being the mountains is great. I think, like, where my where my heart lies right now is probably hard. Multi pitch sport climbing with more bolts and chargers. I think that's where where it kind of lies right now.

01:54:46:24 - 01:54:52:19
Kyle
If, if you heard of my like pillars of climbing that I ask people.

01:54:52:22 - 01:54:54:07
Drew
I think I have it remind me.

01:54:54:11 - 01:55:19:09
Kyle
Performance adventure partnerships and then I've, like, thrown spirituality in there. Not a lot of people have bet on that one. But I attribute it to, like, the outdoors is my church. I've heard people say that. So that's what that's what I mean by spirituality. So, like, in terms of what you drive meaning for climbing, like ranked those in order of importance.

01:55:19:12 - 01:55:20:05
Drew
Can say sales again,

01:55:20:11 - 01:55:23:27
Kyle
Performance adventure. Partnerships and spirituality.

01:55:24:00 - 01:56:00:03
Drew
partnership number one for sure. Being able to live through some pretty intense experiences with other humans and seeing that like range of emotion, like just so stripped down to, like, so raw. And I think especially with like, male partnership, you know, a lot of men kind of keep things in and I've, I've seen, I've seen raw stuff in I've been super raw and, and I love that for, for people especially male partnership.

01:56:00:05 - 01:56:15:06
Drew
Adventure. I think that bleeds into the, the partnership side of things, experiencing things with good friends and being committed.

01:56:15:09 - 01:56:34:25
Drew
Did my plan work? Am I ready? You know, are we going to do it? You know, the build up, the anxiety going into something and then walking off like, wow, we did that. Or walking away with your tail between your legs and like, what do I need to do better? Seeing the world is, you know, this world is a great place to explore.

01:56:34:25 - 01:57:09:08
Drew
And I think climbing is like the perfect avenue to see it. And then, you know, I think performance. Well, not I can probably say, like, the spirituality for sure. You know, Mother Nature, is like, I'm not a religious person, but, like, I've been out in nature is the closest what I consider to be closer to God, whatever that is.

01:57:09:10 - 01:57:12:26
Drew
And this.

01:57:12:28 - 01:57:42:09
Drew
The micro moments, a sunset, a flower, a sip of water, you know, a spring. You know, these, these moments come, randomly and. Yeah. And I guess the performance that I get, I get sucked into the performance side of things often, but it's, if I'm not performing, like, I think I've gotten over that. The older I get, it's like, okay, like, I know where I'm at.

01:57:42:09 - 01:58:00:16
Drew
I can probably get a little better. But I'm not gonna, like, kick and scream is there's plenty there's plenty of really good five tens out there. You know, it's it's like no longer climb. Five, 12, five, 13, five, ten is great. Even five, eight.

01:58:00:18 - 01:58:02:19
Drew
Even five, five.

01:58:02:21 - 01:58:08:02
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah, the adventure part of it, I think, is, so critical. That's why I climb.

01:58:08:04 - 01:58:09:02
Drew
Yeah, the adventure.

01:58:09:05 - 01:58:10:27
Kyle
Adventure.

01:58:10:29 - 01:58:13:25
Drew
What, and with your partnerships.

01:58:13:27 - 01:58:14:15
Drew
Like

01:58:14:18 - 01:58:35:05
Kyle
huge, too. It's so tough. Like, it's almost like you can't have one without the other, you know what I mean? Like, unless you're out there, like, I guess, partnerships. Because you could, like, rope solo. I guess, you know, you could lead rope solo and, like, go have an adventure without a partnership. But, like, I would never sign up for that

01:58:35:07 - 01:58:37:11
Drew
It sounds so lonely.

01:58:37:14 - 01:58:44:07
Kyle
Yeah. I think partnerships is like, it's it's integral to the experience. And you're like having an adventure with somebody.

01:58:44:10 - 01:58:52:22
Drew
Because because you I'm sure you have your your friends. If you're like who I want to do this big objective like you have like the few people in your Rolodex

01:58:52:24 - 01:58:53:11
Kyle
for sure.

01:58:53:11 - 01:59:33:02
Kyle
And I, I've actually been blessed in that way where I always have, like a go to climbing partner. I've never been I've never had lots, but I've never not had a key climbing partner. And yeah, I mean, the partnership has been especially this most recent one that I've been climbing with Bryce for the last like year and a half, two years has been just instrumental to both of our growths, the amount of trust that we have in each other to try hard and to support each other and to trust that, like, we're both not going to lose our shit and we can be in risky situations and like there's a sense of like calmness

01:59:33:02 - 01:59:53:09
Kyle
in the storm when you can rely on somebody like that in those situations that's so valuable. And from what I've heard, actually, it's it's sad how rare that is. I've felt. I feel that's why I say I feel blessed to have it, because I've come across so many people that struggle with partnerships. And that sucks.

01:59:53:12 - 02:00:08:11
Drew
Yeah. And I think like I can't remember who said it, but, Yeah, this is a famous quote out there. Is this like, I can't I came for the climbing and I stayed for for the partnership, for the community.

02:00:08:13 - 02:00:17:06
Drew
I know, like some my climbing partners like, it kind of feels like a romantic relationship without the, like, the, you know, they just know so much about

02:00:17:06 - 02:00:18:11
Kyle
Yeah, it's intimate

02:00:18:13 - 02:00:20:19
Drew
It's very intimate.

02:00:20:21 - 02:00:42:28
Kyle
And I mean, hell, like, especially with these longer multipage like I have, I was telling Hannah, like, I have deep conversations with my partners out in the mountains, like family trauma, like family politics, like, pasts. Fuck ups in your personal life, like things that make us who we are. But, like, you don't just randomly talk to strangers about that kind of stuff.

02:00:43:03 - 02:00:54:12
Kyle
Like, sometimes it takes years to to spill this kind of stuff, but something about the mountains and the time with that person and the trust that you have, like it just you start talking about this stuff. At least I do.

02:00:54:15 - 02:01:14:15
Drew
Yeah. I think like you're entering this this space that you're in. I think naturally you're vulnerable in because like, Mother Nature always wins. And we're we're a guest and we're going to get in and get out and like, hopefully everything goes well. And so I think that just maybe opens up the door to.

02:01:14:18 - 02:01:18:22
Drew
Let let that vulnerability come out a little bit more.

02:01:18:25 - 02:01:20:12
Kyle
yeah it makes for a stronger partnership

02:01:20:14 - 02:01:23:28
Drew
I think. I think it does it does

02:01:24:00 - 02:01:36:03
Kyle
Hey, I've been again blessed enough to not have almost zero like bad partnership experiences. I've never done like, I've never had to, like, blacklist anybody. Yeah.

02:01:36:05 - 02:01:40:23
Drew
yeah I've had a few like those. Great. Yeah I don't know if I'll call you again.

02:01:40:23 - 02:01:49:08
Kyle
But it wasn't like. Yeah, tell everybody red alert. Like, don't climate this person kind of thing. Yeah. I mean I think that comes down to just like compatibility.

02:01:49:10 - 02:01:49:29
Drew
What I'm saying.

02:01:50:00 - 02:01:50:08
Drew
Again,

02:01:50:10 - 02:02:04:00
Kyle
like you said, it's almost weird how it's like a romantic relationship. It's like compatibility comes in. It's like, skill sets might align, but like, personality climbing history, personal history, like, all these things have to line up to create this.

02:02:04:00 - 02:02:12:08
Kyle
Like, magical experience that you end up having in the mountains. And when you find that person, you do your best to keep on, keep on that going.

02:02:12:10 - 02:02:15:05
Drew
My red flag is if all I want to do is talk about climbing.

02:02:15:07 - 02:02:21:02
Kyle
Yes, dude, yes. Don't even get me started. That is the worst, dude. That's the worst.

02:02:21:05 - 02:02:22:08
Drew
Like we're doing it.

02:02:22:10 - 02:02:24:01
Drew
Let's talk about something else. Maybe.

02:02:24:03 - 02:02:50:05
Kyle
Hey, man. Dude, I mean, fuck if anybody is listening, take that to heart, please. Because, like, yeah, that's one of my pet peeves. If, like, all you can talk about is climbing, it's not going to last long. Like, you got to have depth as a human. You got to be able to like, I don't know, I'm very introspective and like, I like to think philosophical, like analyze my life, like ask the bigger questions, like, because how are you supposed to grow?

02:02:50:11 - 02:02:56:15
Kyle
Yeah, there's only so much you can spray to and talk about climbing. It gets old pretty quick. Yeah,

02:02:56:17 - 02:02:57:18
Drew
yeah.

02:02:57:20 - 02:02:59:27
Drew
Young climbers.

02:02:59:29 - 02:03:01:04
Kyle
Yeah. Stoke is real.

02:03:01:06 - 02:03:04:18
Drew
Yeah. So Israel. Yeah, I'm sure I was like that too.

02:03:04:21 - 02:03:25:23
Kyle
Well that's awesome man. Yeah, I mean fuck, I feel like we could, you know, talk for several more hours about your climbing history and the things you've done. But, maybe we'll save that for part two. Yeah. Where can people follow your story? Where can people learn more about you? Where can people get involved if they're listening to this?

02:03:25:23 - 02:03:30:06
Kyle
And this is the first time they're hearing about the Sklar? Like, where can people go?

02:03:30:09 - 02:04:08:08
Drew
Yeah. You know, like, I, I'm, I'm not too much on the social medias, but, yeah, I would say if you're kind of curious about what SLC does is find out on Instagram or. Yeah, I'm always writing news blogs about her stuff and, we have a film coming out which, which I showed you called is calling it Six Points from camp for their, last intern and so, you know, I think, yeah, just following that, Sokka and that's you'll probably find find a way to me through that.

02:04:08:08 - 02:04:12:17
Drew
If you're if you dive deep enough on the on the Instagrams.

02:04:12:19 - 02:04:14:12
Drew
What is it?

02:04:14:14 - 02:04:24:00
Drew
We're doing a premiere on April 29th. It's going to be at a local brewery.

02:04:24:02 - 02:04:34:17
Drew
Yeah, yeah, just talking about kind of this conversation, but more distilled thing, I think. Yeah. Get a little vulnerable in there, and I think that's good.

02:04:34:20 - 02:04:46:10
Kyle
Cool. Yeah. Once, like, this will go out before that. But once it, like, once the film is out and this episode is out, I'll go back in the show notes and, like, add the link to the film so people can check it out.

02:04:46:13 - 02:04:52:28
Drew
Yeah, yeah, I think we'll be on. Yeah. I'll, Yeah. We're not quite sure how that's going to flop out.

02:04:53:01 - 02:04:53:18
Kyle
Vimeo.

02:04:53:19 - 02:04:54:01
Kyle
Yeah,

02:04:54:04 - 02:04:55:17
Drew
Yeah, I think it will be on the interns

02:04:55:17 - 02:04:56:27
Drew
YouTube, probably.

02:04:57:00 - 02:04:57:22
Drew
The guy that.

02:04:57:25 - 02:04:58:07
Drew
Filmed it.

02:04:58:12 - 02:05:01:09
Kyle
Yeah. And if you're listening to do this before, stay tuned.

02:05:01:11 - 02:05:03:08
Drew
stay tuned.

02:05:03:10 - 02:05:05:08
Drew
Tell him. Thanks for having me.