112 | Jason Niemeier: An "Eldo" Accident - Partner Vetting, Ledge Falls & Processing Blame

Jason met a new climbing partner through a Facebook group, vetted him over a few conversations, and went to Eldorado Canyon for their first route together. Twenty feet up the Yellow Spur, his partner fell onto a ledge—rope behind the leg, face-first impact... broken wrist and severe facial trauma. This episode walks through the accident sequence, the rescue, and what Jason feels went wrong. Despite multiple outreaches, his injured partner stopped communicating with him after the accident and has left Jason to process and reflect on the accident alone. He reflects on partner vetting, extending gear on traverses, communication during high-consequence terrain, attentive belaying, and processing the guilt of an accident where someone gets badly hurt and disappears. In this conversation we cover topics such as: finding partners online, multi-pitch trad climbing, ledge fall dynamics, first aid response, and helmet effectiveness.

Watch the full episode on Youtube

#ClimbingAccident #TradClimbing

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Chapters

• 0:00 The Background
• 28:25 The Accident
• 55:05 The Aftermath & Going Silent
• 1:02:37 Lessons Learned

Transcript

00:00:00:01 - 00:00:17:15
Kyle
let's start from the beginning. I think it's important to kind of lay a little bit of a foundation for like where you're at as you, as a climber, when you found this particular partner that you ended up climbing with. I'm interested in how that connection started. Like, what were the circumstances of the partnership?

00:00:17:16 - 00:00:23:08
Kyle
How did you guys find each other? Well, why did you guys choose to go on this objective? Like give me the background of of

00:00:24:23 - 00:00:26:13
Jason
Yeah. So I think just going.

00:00:26:13 - 00:00:26:27
Jason
Back.

00:00:26:27 - 00:00:28:21
Jason
It's a pretty brief history for me.

00:00:28:21 - 00:00:32:14
Jason
So we'll just do that, to get things rolling. So,

00:00:32:14 - 00:00:33:15
Jason
came to Colorado.

00:00:33:15 - 00:00:51:09
Jason
About eight years ago, and, it's taken out climbing with some friends that I met here. Door climbing and just sport climbing for the most part. In the beginning, single pitch quickly got convinced to get onto the sharp end.

00:00:51:12 - 00:00:54:03
Jason
It was probably my fourth day climbing,

00:00:54:06 - 00:00:55:22
Jason
Ever. So.

00:00:55:24 - 00:01:05:00
Jason
Definitely a quick onset for that. In hindsight, probably a little too fast. I don't think I was fully ready for that mental challenge, but I found myself, on the sharp.

00:01:05:00 - 00:01:05:21
Jason
End of.

00:01:05:24 - 00:01:09:00
Jason
Of that, very quickly. Got interested.

00:01:09:00 - 00:01:10:00
Jason
Interested in,

00:01:10:06 - 00:01:25:08
Jason
Multi pitch climbing. And that was like, yeah, once I discovered that it was really why do why do you single pitch when you can go up really high. So quickly had a love for, for multi pitch.

00:01:25:11 - 00:01:33:02
Jason
Eventually learned about what trad was that there was a different form of climbing. Had zero interest in it.

00:01:33:05 - 00:01:34:18
Jason
Learned that.

00:01:34:21 - 00:01:36:06
Jason
You know, even.

00:01:36:08 - 00:01:41:02
Jason
What I remember hearing is that your pieces can fall out and.

00:01:41:04 - 00:01:50:03
Jason
And I was hearing of gears zipper ING our, and.

00:01:50:05 - 00:01:54:19
Jason
No, they were from, primarily sport climbers who.

00:01:54:19 - 00:01:55:18
Jason
Also had done.

00:01:55:18 - 00:01:57:04
Jason
Some trad.

00:01:57:06 - 00:02:03:27
Jason
But I'm sure, some of them were just purely sport climbers and just going off of word of mouth, but.

00:02:03:29 - 00:02:10:04
Jason
I was yeah. Yeah. No, I was, the zipper one.

00:02:10:04 - 00:02:16:08
Jason
Was from, a friend. He was climbing and his girlfriend was.

00:02:16:11 - 00:02:30:18
Jason
Hey, how do you feel about those pieces you placed? I feel pretty good about it, okay? Because they've they've all come out now, and he hadn't even fallen yet. So. Yeah, that was, I didn't have the words for it at.

00:02:30:18 - 00:02:39:07
Jason
The time, but when I was hearing that, that was outside of my risk tolerance, at that part of my life, so wrote it off, I tore.

00:02:39:07 - 00:02:41:24
Jason
I swore to myself, I will, I will never do. Trad is what.

00:02:41:24 - 00:02:47:20
Jason
I told myself. I remember that very clearly that that exact dialog.

00:02:47:22 - 00:02:50:00
Jason
And, eventually was.

00:02:50:00 - 00:02:51:11
Jason
I watched a lot of outdoor.

00:02:51:11 - 00:02:54:14
Jason
Documentaries and,

00:02:54:16 - 00:02:55:29
Jason
Was watching some alpine.

00:02:55:29 - 00:02:58:03
Jason
Climbing movies.

00:02:58:03 - 00:03:00:18
Jason
And got super inspired.

00:03:00:20 - 00:03:01:28
Jason
And.

00:03:02:00 - 00:03:05:09
Jason
Something clicked in me and I was like, wow, maybe.

00:03:05:09 - 00:03:11:16
Jason
I should, that looks pretty cool. Maybe I should do the alpine climbing thing.

00:03:11:18 - 00:03:15:20
Jason
And after sitting with that for a.

00:03:15:20 - 00:03:17:09
Jason
Little bit, I was like, okay.

00:03:17:09 - 00:03:18:27
Jason
Well, there's no bolts up there.

00:03:18:27 - 00:03:25:09
Jason
So if that's something you really want to do, you're going to have to do trad. You're going to have to learn how to do that.

00:03:25:13 - 00:03:26:16
Jason
So.

00:03:30:19 - 00:03:32:04
Jason
I mean, when I made the.

00:03:32:04 - 00:03:42:22
Jason
Decision to, to go for it was, it was it was the alpine aspect of it, and Chad was Chad was just, the key to be able to go.

00:03:42:24 - 00:03:45:12
Jason
Explore in these remote.

00:03:45:14 - 00:03:47:18
Jason
Amazing locations.

00:03:47:20 - 00:03:48:05
Jason
And.

00:03:48:05 - 00:03:54:23
Jason
Do something really cool that not a lot of people are doing and just, their perspective change of.

00:03:54:23 - 00:03:58:06
Jason
Being really small in a big environment was.

00:03:58:06 - 00:04:01:09
Jason
Really appealing to me.

00:04:01:11 - 00:04:01:21
Jason
Yeah.

00:04:01:21 - 00:04:04:16
Jason
So then decided to get on to the Chad Chad.

00:04:04:20 - 00:04:08:27
Jason
Game and, start learning how to, to play skier and.

00:04:08:29 - 00:04:11:29
Jason
Quickly fell in love with it.

00:04:12:02 - 00:04:14:19
Jason
Really enjoyed the cerebral side of it.

00:04:14:21 - 00:04:17:03
Jason
The, the big puzzle.

00:04:18:16 - 00:04:23:06
Jason
The risks, the risk involved with it. Yeah.

00:04:23:06 - 00:04:24:25
Jason
It was just a big puzzle. It was really.

00:04:24:25 - 00:04:25:19
Jason
Fascinating.

00:04:25:19 - 00:04:33:14
Jason
Really, mentally engaging. And I'm a person who likes to challenge themselves mentally. So, yeah, I was.

00:04:33:14 - 00:04:34:12
Jason
Doing trad climbing.

00:04:34:12 - 00:04:41:11
Jason
For a couple of years and slowly starting to, maybe get the skills to.

00:04:41:11 - 00:04:43:12
Jason
Start doing some alpine climbing.

00:04:43:12 - 00:04:43:28
Kyle
like as a

00:04:54:07 - 00:05:16:03
Jason
Mentor would be, too strong of a word I did. I followed some friends who were more experienced and, I kind of went into it. No knowing what my my tendencies learn with action sports is to, to progress really quickly and kind of hang.

00:05:16:03 - 00:05:17:03
Jason
Myself out there a little.

00:05:17:03 - 00:05:20:02
Jason
Too much. I did that with snowboarding and look.

00:05:20:02 - 00:05:20:15
Jason
Back on.

00:05:20:15 - 00:05:21:29
Jason
That,

00:05:22:01 - 00:05:25:09
Jason
With some regrets on how quickly I progressed myself.

00:05:25:09 - 00:05:27:10
Jason
So I didn't want to do that with trad.

00:05:27:10 - 00:05:28:19
Jason
So I told myself.

00:05:28:19 - 00:05:29:21
Jason
I'm going to take a year and.

00:05:29:21 - 00:05:36:01
Jason
Just follow. I just have no no pressure on myself to lead. I just want to learn the art.

00:05:36:03 - 00:05:54:01
Jason
So just followed some a couple friends, one and multiple and yeah, pretty soon found myself feeling equipped and ready to to lead, a lot quicker than within the years. Probably just within two months.

00:05:54:03 - 00:05:59:21
Jason
But I, I'd gotten enough reps in and understood the systems enough so.

00:05:59:24 - 00:06:01:14
Jason
Once I started leading, then I.

00:06:01:14 - 00:06:08:07
Jason
Was, I was looking for. Yeah. I was just climbing with friends. I found some.

00:06:08:09 - 00:06:10:09
Jason
Some note at the gym.

00:06:10:11 - 00:06:10:26
Jason
Someone who.

00:06:10:26 - 00:06:12:16
Jason
Was looking for weekday partners.

00:06:12:16 - 00:06:13:25
Jason
Because I work in health care.

00:06:13:25 - 00:06:18:12
Jason
So finding weekday partners is is a challenge. So just.

00:06:18:12 - 00:06:20:00
Jason
Kind of hodgepodge, hodgepodge.

00:06:20:18 - 00:06:23:18
Jason
Partners and and stuff like that.

00:06:29:22 - 00:06:34:27
Jason
No, no, most of my partners were consistent in the.

00:06:34:27 - 00:06:39:26
Jason
Fact that I've climbed with them for years, but it's they're pretty.

00:06:39:29 - 00:06:41:04
Jason
You know, once.

00:06:41:04 - 00:06:41:12
Jason
A.

00:06:41:12 - 00:06:42:14
Jason
Month, maybe.

00:06:42:14 - 00:06:45:12
Jason
Twice a month max. Yeah. A lot of.

00:06:45:12 - 00:06:51:28
Jason
People just they have a lot of a lot of things going on. And coordinating schedules can be really challenging.

00:06:51:28 - 00:06:53:29
Jason
Yeah. Yeah.

00:06:54:10 - 00:07:05:21
Kyle
Cool. And so, yeah, you were. You were talking about, steering your vision towards the alpine and feeling like you were ready enough and equipped enough as a track climber to kind of start, you know, dipping your toes in the water, as it

00:07:06:02 - 00:07:12:26
Jason
Yeah, yeah. So finally, had an objective in mind for my first one. It was,

00:07:12:29 - 00:07:18:21
Jason
Where to write down in the, the Sangre de Cristo is out here in Colorado. It's,

00:07:18:23 - 00:07:19:26
Jason
Classic.

00:07:19:29 - 00:07:25:17
Jason
One. I think it's actually in one of the the 50 classic lines in North America. So.

00:07:25:23 - 00:07:28:21
Jason
Have the sights on that. As I was, bagging all the.

00:07:28:22 - 00:07:29:26
Jason
Fourteeners.

00:07:29:28 - 00:07:36:00
Jason
Through hiking, I found that route and decided that would be the only way to climb that mountain was was.

00:07:36:00 - 00:07:39:04
Jason
To do with the rope. Do it in good style.

00:07:39:06 - 00:07:40:29
Jason
Then it was just a matter of finding a partner.

00:07:41:29 - 00:07:43:05
Jason
And called.

00:07:43:08 - 00:07:52:24
Jason
Called on? Yeah. Called on my friend Jeremy. He had never done alpine climbing, but he was super strong climber. We had.

00:07:52:27 - 00:07:58:22
Jason
I'd probably had the most reps with him. We we'd done quite a bit of multiple coaching and.

00:07:58:25 - 00:08:00:20
Jason
Worked pretty well as a team.

00:08:00:22 - 00:08:03:06
Jason
And felt like,

00:08:03:08 - 00:08:03:27
Jason
Felt like we'd be.

00:08:03:27 - 00:08:06:27
Jason
A good team for that. So called him up and we did that.

00:08:06:27 - 00:08:11:18
Jason
And that was probably about three, three, maybe four years ago.

00:08:11:21 - 00:08:12:03
Jason
And I was.

00:08:12:03 - 00:08:24:00
Jason
Doing one, maybe two alpine climbers a season since then. And it's usually a partner. Finding a partner tends to be a crux for me.

00:08:24:03 - 00:08:25:12
Jason
So.

00:08:25:12 - 00:08:34:19
Kyle
What in your what in your experience, is it just been like a schedule misalignment for partner finding partners? Objective misalignment, kind of. Where where do you feel like it's been the most struggle?

00:08:36:01 - 00:08:38:02
Jason
Yeah, I it's it's been a pretty.

00:08:38:06 - 00:08:40:21
Jason
Pretty much a combination.

00:08:40:23 - 00:08:47:18
Jason
Coordination of schedules and then just finding someone who really. Yeah. Had the desire.

00:08:47:18 - 00:08:49:02
Jason
To, to go out there and.

00:08:49:03 - 00:08:49:26
Jason
You know, there's a.

00:08:49:26 - 00:08:51:19
Jason
Certain amount of risk that's involved.

00:08:51:19 - 00:08:53:29
Jason
And, you know, as people get older, their.

00:08:53:29 - 00:08:54:18
Jason
Risk tolerance.

00:08:54:18 - 00:08:56:06
Jason
Changes. So just getting.

00:08:56:06 - 00:08:57:28
Jason
Lined up with that.

00:08:58:27 - 00:08:59:19
Jason
With someone.

00:08:59:19 - 00:09:00:24
Jason
Who.

00:09:00:27 - 00:09:03:06
Jason
I trust and have the ability.

00:09:03:06 - 00:09:10:28
Jason
To really get some training sessions in for that and, and yeah, just the motive, motivation.

00:09:11:00 - 00:09:15:01
Jason
Skill level scheduling kind of all that.

00:09:15:03 - 00:09:17:07
Jason
Yeah. Yeah.

00:09:17:09 - 00:09:19:12
Jason
Yeah. So

00:09:19:14 - 00:09:24:04
Jason
So yeah, since, I mean, ever since then, I've still been still on the hunt for.

00:09:24:04 - 00:09:25:05
Jason
You know, a.

00:09:25:05 - 00:09:27:15
Jason
Consistent partner.

00:09:27:15 - 00:09:32:01
Jason
Who has alpine goals. And so.

00:09:32:04 - 00:09:40:00
Jason
Trying to meet people organically is usually my first preferred, method for, for finding partners in relationships.

00:09:40:02 - 00:09:41:05
Jason
After that wasn't.

00:09:41:05 - 00:09:43:18
Jason
Working for a couple of years. Yeah.

00:09:43:19 - 00:09:48:06
Jason
Decided to just start reaching out onto, Facebook climbing group.

00:09:48:09 - 00:09:53:12
Jason
I don't I haven't really dabbled with a lot of Mountain project, forums and stuff like that.

00:09:53:15 - 00:09:56:10
Jason
I know people use that, but yeah. So I was reaching out.

00:09:56:10 - 00:10:03:29
Jason
On, mountain or, Facebook climbing group looking for alpine partners.

00:10:04:01 - 00:10:06:14
Jason
And that's when.

00:10:06:16 - 00:10:10:16
Jason
I made a post. I had a couple of hits on that,

00:10:10:18 - 00:10:11:09
Jason
Picked one.

00:10:11:09 - 00:10:15:07
Jason
Or two. People from that, just.

00:10:15:12 - 00:10:21:01
Jason
Test that out, see how it goes. And that's when, that's how Bob and I got in contact.

00:10:21:01 - 00:10:24:20
Jason
With each other. And so we.

00:10:24:22 - 00:10:25:12
Jason
Talked a couple.

00:10:25:12 - 00:10:26:08
Jason
Times.

00:10:26:08 - 00:10:27:20
Jason
Figured out.

00:10:27:22 - 00:10:29:05
Jason
You know, hey.

00:10:29:07 - 00:10:31:04
Jason
We both kind of have.

00:10:31:07 - 00:10:32:11
Jason
Similar dreams.

00:10:32:11 - 00:10:33:01
Jason
We kind of.

00:10:33:01 - 00:10:38:28
Jason
Live in, where our current climbing grades are around the same.

00:10:39:01 - 00:10:42:15
Jason
Bob had just moved to Colorado a couple months ago.

00:10:42:17 - 00:10:48:23
Jason
He was looking for partners. So, you know, he was already checking quite a few of the boxes.

00:10:48:25 - 00:10:50:15
Jason
And so we decided.

00:10:50:15 - 00:10:54:24
Jason
To let's let's get this ball rolling. So.

00:10:54:27 - 00:10:56:03
Jason
You know, I'm not one.

00:10:56:03 - 00:10:59:03
Jason
To just jump into.

00:10:59:06 - 00:10:59:29
Jason
The alpine with.

00:10:59:29 - 00:11:01:14
Jason
Someone totally new.

00:11:01:15 - 00:11:02:25
Jason
One and establish.

00:11:02:27 - 00:11:07:12
Jason
You know, our relationship and make sure that they're checking.

00:11:07:12 - 00:11:08:28
Jason
The, the technical boxes.

00:11:08:28 - 00:11:12:29
Jason
And skills and stuff like that. So we.

00:11:13:04 - 00:11:13:26
Jason
Decided.

00:11:13:26 - 00:11:15:00
Jason
To, you know,

00:11:15:07 - 00:11:16:06
Jason
Trad multiple.

00:11:16:06 - 00:11:19:10
Jason
Which is a great it's a great.

00:11:19:12 - 00:11:22:23
Jason
Stepping stone. You'll you'll learn a lot very.

00:11:22:23 - 00:11:25:07
Jason
Quickly about whether, you know.

00:11:25:09 - 00:11:35:26
Jason
If there's any flags. It's a very relatable context versus, going to the gym. You know, that's that's good. It's a good start. But.

00:11:35:28 - 00:11:37:07
Jason
Yeah, maybe we were skipping.

00:11:37:07 - 00:11:43:01
Jason
Ahead a couple steps on that, but we felt. Yeah, I so we chose, to go to.

00:11:43:03 - 00:11:45:26
Jason
El Dorado Canyon. It's one of,

00:11:45:29 - 00:11:47:02
Jason
It's kind of where I cut my.

00:11:47:02 - 00:11:48:03
Jason
Teeth learning.

00:11:48:03 - 00:11:51:29
Jason
How to trad climb out here in Colorado.

00:11:51:29 - 00:11:52:17
Kyle
about,

00:12:07:13 - 00:12:12:09
Jason
Yeah, that's a good question. We.

00:12:12:12 - 00:12:14:00
Jason
And, Yeah, it would.

00:12:14:00 - 00:12:17:03
Jason
Be hard to,

00:12:17:05 - 00:12:19:15
Jason
Recall that without,

00:12:19:18 - 00:12:20:09
Jason
Yeah, maybe.

00:12:20:09 - 00:12:21:06
Jason
Looking it up on.

00:12:21:12 - 00:12:22:06
Jason
On my phone to.

00:12:22:06 - 00:12:23:25
Jason
See what the actual conversations.

00:12:23:25 - 00:12:26:19
Jason
Were. But.

00:12:26:19 - 00:12:41:12
Kyle
specific questions you were asking him like hey you know, what's your experience or what have you done. Or did you kind of he just came at it with like hey that sounds like a good plan. And he just appeared as though or spoke as though he came from experience like, listen,

00:12:42:05 - 00:12:45:08
Jason
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the questions.

00:12:45:10 - 00:12:53:21
Jason
That I typically ask people with before going, going out and actually meeting up is, you know what?

00:12:53:24 - 00:12:59:20
Jason
What are you climbing grade wise? Where do you like to climb?

00:12:59:22 - 00:13:10:12
Jason
Looking at also gear, you know, someone who might not have all the right gear, might not be doing it as often. It's like.

00:13:10:16 - 00:13:12:10
Jason
You know, a little, little hesitancy.

00:13:12:16 - 00:13:13:03
Jason
If that.

00:13:14:12 - 00:13:16:24
Jason
And so we were.

00:13:18:03 - 00:13:19:05
Jason
Yeah. Just asking him.

00:13:19:05 - 00:13:19:21
Jason
Where he.

00:13:19:21 - 00:13:26:03
Jason
Climbs at, you know, he's mostly from from out of state, but he had listed a couple areas here.

00:13:26:06 - 00:13:36:09
Jason
He'd been to El Dorado Canyon, where we were going. Yeah. What, what grades he typically leads at. And,

00:13:36:12 - 00:13:41:14
Jason
Yeah. Also any what what alpine experience he had. So he had.

00:13:42:17 - 00:13:48:29
Jason
Several alpine routes under his belt. He was climbing.

00:13:49:02 - 00:13:54:20
Jason
He was leading around ten minuses at the crags.

00:13:54:23 - 00:13:55:21
Jason
And lots.

00:13:55:21 - 00:13:57:25
Jason
Of multipage experience.

00:13:58:01 - 00:14:15:12
Kyle
Yeah. And so I mean yeah I guess what I'm just painting the picture here is that you, you know, you obviously seem, careful about who, who you choose to climb with. And so, so Bob had gone through your, your litmus test of just making sure that, you know, this was something you you were comfortable, it was the person you were comfortable with climbing.

00:14:15:12 - 00:14:28:17
Kyle
And you went through those steps to kind of make sure, because I mean, for me, myself as well. Like there's definitely a checklist. It's like, you know, I want to there's certain things I ask and certain things I do to make sure that this person is aligned with, with the goal and the objective that I'm, you know, suggesting,

00:14:28:20 - 00:14:32:25
Jason
Yeah. And another thing that I really do to.

00:14:32:26 - 00:14:37:04
Jason
Safeguard myself in that situation is make sure that the objective.

00:14:37:04 - 00:14:39:24
Jason
That we're picking is something.

00:14:39:24 - 00:14:40:15
Jason
That.

00:14:40:18 - 00:14:42:21
Jason
I personally feel comfortable leading.

00:14:42:21 - 00:14:43:24
Jason
Every pitch of.

00:14:43:24 - 00:14:45:19
Jason
In case, you know.

00:14:45:19 - 00:14:51:10
Jason
There's been times where you get up there and someone was saying how, you know, they were.

00:14:51:13 - 00:14:51:24
Jason
Planning.

00:14:51:24 - 00:14:54:05
Jason
On doing this and climbing this pitch and.

00:14:54:05 - 00:14:55:18
Jason
And they're looking.

00:14:55:18 - 00:14:58:25
Jason
Really shaky. And yeah, a couple weeks prior.

00:14:59:17 - 00:15:04:22
Jason
I had found another partner on the same Facebook post, and that happened.

00:15:04:22 - 00:15:08:18
Jason
To me where he was.

00:15:08:20 - 00:15:09:00
Jason
Yeah.

00:15:09:00 - 00:15:13:18
Jason
Didn't really have the skills to back up what he was talking.

00:15:13:21 - 00:15:20:23
Jason
There was some safety issues that I noticed, while we were out and he backed down.

00:15:20:23 - 00:15:23:07
Jason
From a climb, not to say, like, hey, you know, if.

00:15:23:07 - 00:15:23:22
Jason
It's a bad.

00:15:23:22 - 00:15:25:09
Jason
Day for you, that's totally.

00:15:25:09 - 00:15:31:24
Jason
Fine. But, it was that amongst some other flags of. Oh, wow. Okay, you said you.

00:15:31:24 - 00:15:32:27
Jason
Were going to be comfortable.

00:15:32:27 - 00:15:36:24
Jason
Leading this, and now I'm on the sharp end here. So.

00:15:36:26 - 00:15:37:12
Jason
Just making.

00:15:37:12 - 00:15:37:25
Jason
Sure that.

00:15:37:25 - 00:15:38:27
Jason
When we do pick an.

00:15:38:27 - 00:15:40:07
Jason
Objective for.

00:15:40:10 - 00:15:40:24
Jason
For a new.

00:15:40:24 - 00:15:56:17
Jason
Partnership, that, that it's something that I would feel comfortable leading every pitch if I had to. And I had already climbed that route and led every, every pitch, just like two weeks prior. And so I felt like one. I know the route finding, because route finding.

00:15:56:17 - 00:15:59:08
Jason
Can be a little bit of an issue in low.

00:15:59:11 - 00:16:12:15
Kyle
You're you're you're stacking all the odds in your favor, and I love that. I think that's super important to talk about. And, with finding new partnerships and climbing in, you know, areas, these things you're talking about, our just, like, is super, super important. So it's cool that you were

00:16:13:08 - 00:16:13:25
Jason
Yeah, yeah.

00:16:13:25 - 00:16:14:24
Jason
You hear it? 1 or 2.

00:16:14:24 - 00:16:17:19
Jason
Stories of of a.

00:16:17:21 - 00:16:17:29
Jason
You know.

00:16:17:29 - 00:16:18:28
Jason
Online link up.

00:16:18:28 - 00:16:19:17
Jason
And.

00:16:19:20 - 00:16:24:26
Jason
Just a horror story of people getting out of their harnesses and, like, going to go.

00:16:24:26 - 00:16:26:17
Jason
Pee and.

00:16:26:19 - 00:16:28:02
Jason
And totally.

00:16:28:05 - 00:16:31:05
Jason
Getting spooked and, and, you know.

00:16:31:08 - 00:16:36:00
Jason
That kind of stuff. So it definitely happens. So it's good to.

00:16:36:00 - 00:16:50:29
Kyle
of randomness when you're climbing with a new partner. And so you have to like it's like I said you got to stack all the odds in your favor. And if things were to go completely terrible and you've got to lead everything, the person's not being safe. Like you want to not be pushing your own limits as well.

00:16:50:29 - 00:16:51:10
Kyle
At the same

00:16:51:22 - 00:16:59:19
Jason
Yeah. And you're, you know, two, three, four years prior because this happened.

00:16:59:21 - 00:17:02:11
Jason
Bob's accident happened this past summer.

00:17:02:14 - 00:17:13:19
Jason
But 2 or 3 years ago, my, my kind of rule with new client, new partners was I. I wouldn't do a multi.

00:17:13:19 - 00:17:14:08
Jason
Pitch with the new.

00:17:14:08 - 00:17:15:14
Jason
Person.

00:17:15:16 - 00:17:21:22
Jason
That was like my method. But as I'm.

00:17:21:22 - 00:17:26:29
Jason
Getting into more riskier environments and.

00:17:26:29 - 00:17:29:12
Jason
Looking for partners to go with that, I've had to.

00:17:29:12 - 00:17:35:19
Jason
Make, you know, certain risk risk assessments and.

00:17:35:21 - 00:17:38:10
Jason
You know, deciding to go on a multi pitch with somebody.

00:17:38:10 - 00:17:40:06
Jason
New is a bigger.

00:17:40:06 - 00:17:42:04
Jason
Jump and a bigger risk to both.

00:17:42:04 - 00:17:44:26
Jason
Parties involved.

00:17:44:28 - 00:17:58:23
Jason
But that's something that I felt like was calculated for me. And with these safeguarding criteria that it felt like a manageable risk. Yeah.

00:17:58:23 - 00:18:16:07
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00:19:19:10 - 00:19:20:10
Jason
Yeah, yeah.

00:19:20:11 - 00:19:21:02
Jason
So

00:19:21:02 - 00:19:21:24
Jason
we're hiking.

00:19:21:24 - 00:19:24:22
Jason
Up, doing the approach, and he's the one who.

00:19:24:22 - 00:19:27:02
Jason
Suggested the route. And I was like, sure, that's fine.

00:19:27:02 - 00:19:32:12
Jason
You know, it's, it's a nine. It's, although nine elders a little a little bit of a sandbag.

00:19:32:12 - 00:19:34:09
Jason
Yellow Spur,

00:19:34:21 - 00:19:42:01
Jason
Yeah. It's, it's an it's an LDO classic. Five, nine.

00:19:42:03 - 00:19:50:23
Jason
Probably 5 or 6 pitches. Yeah. It's, it's got a really cool, the final pitch.

00:19:50:23 - 00:19:55:19
Jason
Is pretty iconic. It's, you going up? You're going up an exposed aret.

00:19:55:21 - 00:19:57:16
Jason
Topping out at the top of a.

00:19:57:19 - 00:19:58:07
Jason
You know, six.

00:19:58:07 - 00:19:59:14
Jason
Hundred foot wall.

00:20:00:16 - 00:20:03:10
Jason
Surrounded from you right on the the.

00:20:03:12 - 00:20:06:03
Jason
The fringe of the Front Range. So you got the.

00:20:06:05 - 00:20:12:00
Jason
The flat plains off to one side and then, the Rockies to the other side.

00:20:12:03 - 00:20:19:18
Jason
Yeah. And, it's got an, pretty iconic, pin letter, sort of, it's a free.

00:20:19:18 - 00:20:27:20
Jason
Climb, but, you know, couple a couple fixed pins on it, real technical. And then the, the first pitch.

00:20:27:22 - 00:20:30:28
Jason
Is what I've been learning is,

00:20:31:00 - 00:20:35:07
Jason
First pitch has a low crux with some, some default.

00:20:35:07 - 00:20:36:07
Jason
Potential.

00:20:36:10 - 00:20:38:09
Jason
That has.

00:20:38:11 - 00:20:41:07
Jason
Gotten more than one person on it.

00:20:41:09 - 00:20:47:12
Jason
There's, there's quite a few rescues that have happened at that exact spot, at that exact crux.

00:20:47:17 - 00:20:55:25
Kyle
It was so I looked online, and it looked like there were two options for pitch. One, there's, like, a ten minus and a nine. Which one did you guys plan on? On going

00:20:56:05 - 00:20:56:25
Jason
We went after the.

00:20:56:25 - 00:20:58:29
Jason
Nine, the standard start, you know?

00:20:58:29 - 00:21:03:16
Jason
So that that first pitch on the the five, nine, you basically you climb up about.

00:21:03:19 - 00:21:08:08
Jason
Ten, 15ft, to, under, hang off a roof, and then you.

00:21:08:08 - 00:21:09:26
Jason
Traverse left about.

00:21:09:29 - 00:21:13:15
Jason
Another 15ft and then.

00:21:13:17 - 00:21:14:15
Jason
There's a fixed pin.

00:21:14:15 - 00:21:21:27
Jason
There. And, from there you're pulling, a bulging roof that immediately.

00:21:21:27 - 00:21:32:08
Jason
Goes into a low angle after that. And so it's more of just a like a bulge versus a vertical roof. And then it's a quick little jaunt.

00:21:32:11 - 00:21:38:22
Jason
Up easy terrain to, to a tree. It's only about, you know, maybe 40ft,

00:21:38:24 - 00:21:42:17
Jason
Vertical from the ground to the belay at the tree. But you're.

00:21:42:22 - 00:21:43:00
Jason
You're.

00:21:43:00 - 00:21:44:26
Jason
Kind of zigzagging around.

00:21:45:20 - 00:22:05:26
Kyle
And then so you guys, like you guys are at the base at this point. In hindsight, did anything feel off like like at this point. You know were there any any things that you had maybe noticed but had missed or anything that you kind of like, were like, after looking at that, I kind of I did see that, you know, this was a little off or anything like that.

00:22:05:26 - 00:22:16:18
Kyle
Or was everything squeaky clean? Looked like a great day. Vibes were good. There was no, like, nothing, no voice or no gut feeling that you were kind of just like, like listening to paying

00:22:18:10 - 00:22:31:14
Jason
Yeah. No, everything was pretty squeaky clean. Yeah, everything was squeaky clean. We're vibing well, sharing good stories. Having a lot of overlap on, insights.

00:22:31:17 - 00:22:32:00
Jason
Related.

00:22:32:00 - 00:22:33:08
Jason
To climbing.

00:22:33:11 - 00:22:36:17
Jason
And, it was actually kind of funny.

00:22:36:17 - 00:22:38:22
Jason
We. He mentioned that he.

00:22:38:22 - 00:22:52:14
Jason
Had a, partner that he found on Facebook, who they went to LDO. And that person, did not check a lot of the safety boxes and kind of talked up a.

00:22:52:17 - 00:22:57:22
Jason
A bigger game than they were able to to show. And he had mentioned their name.

00:22:57:22 - 00:22:58:13
Jason
And I was like.

00:22:58:13 - 00:22:59:15
Jason
Oh, I bet I.

00:22:59:15 - 00:23:01:05
Jason
Can guess their first and last name because.

00:23:01:05 - 00:23:01:16
Jason
I had the.

00:23:01:16 - 00:23:02:10
Jason
Same exact.

00:23:02:10 - 00:23:03:17
Jason
Experience with.

00:23:03:17 - 00:23:05:20
Jason
Someone in L, though, like a month ago.

00:23:05:23 - 00:23:06:21
Jason
And shares.

00:23:06:21 - 00:23:07:01
Jason
How.

00:23:07:01 - 00:23:11:13
Jason
It was. It was the same person. So we we were.

00:23:11:15 - 00:23:13:14
Jason
Bonding and reminiscing.

00:23:13:14 - 00:23:14:13
Jason
Over.

00:23:14:15 - 00:23:16:22
Jason
How new partnerships you.

00:23:16:26 - 00:23:19:09
Jason
It's there's.

00:23:19:09 - 00:23:19:25
Jason
Times where.

00:23:19:25 - 00:23:23:19
Jason
People, you know are talking a little bit more than they're able to.

00:23:23:22 - 00:23:30:12
Jason
To walk. And so that was yeah, that was kind of funny to.

00:23:30:14 - 00:23:31:05
Jason
To be able to.

00:23:31:11 - 00:23:33:04
Jason
To guess exactly who that was can.

00:23:33:04 - 00:23:35:22
Jason
Be a very similar experience.

00:23:35:24 - 00:23:37:10
Jason
So we were both like, yeah.

00:23:37:10 - 00:23:37:29
Jason
We're, you.

00:23:37:29 - 00:23:47:27
Jason
Know, we're not going to be pursuing that climbing relationship where we let that, that contact go. Because they didn't pass. They didn't pass, you know, day one inspection.

00:23:47:27 - 00:23:48:18
Jason
So,

00:23:48:20 - 00:24:02:04
Kyle
For sure. Yeah, there's definitely some. I mean, I've talked about this a lot in the show, but there's definitely some, like, cardinal sins or just completely disqualifying things that happen. Or it's just like, I can't justify going out with you again, you know, like, you know.

00:24:02:10 - 00:24:03:21
Jason
Yeah, it's it's the.

00:24:03:21 - 00:24:05:07
Jason
Harsh reality of it, but we're we're.

00:24:05:07 - 00:24:08:11
Jason
Doing risky things. So we need there's a certain level.

00:24:08:11 - 00:24:10:23
Jason
Of baseline competency that just needs.

00:24:10:23 - 00:24:13:06
Jason
To be there. Yeah.

00:24:13:08 - 00:24:14:23
Jason
And especially.

00:24:14:23 - 00:24:17:06
Jason
I mean, it doesn't even matter if you're doing sport.

00:24:17:06 - 00:24:23:16
Jason
Trad single pitch, multi pitch. It doesn't. You know, there's foundational stuff. Yeah.

00:24:23:18 - 00:24:28:10
Jason
So the, the one thing that did like in hindsight it wasn't.

00:24:28:10 - 00:24:29:05
Jason
A flag, but.

00:24:29:05 - 00:24:31:12
Jason
It definitely adds to.

00:24:31:12 - 00:24:35:05
Jason
The depth of understanding of maybe where Bob was mentally that.

00:24:35:05 - 00:24:36:04
Jason
Day.

00:24:36:07 - 00:24:38:22
Jason
He one of the things we were talking about on the way up.

00:24:38:22 - 00:24:45:07
Jason
Is, you know, he went on a date the night before and it went better than he was expecting.

00:24:45:07 - 00:24:47:08
Jason
So, you know, he stayed up a little.

00:24:47:08 - 00:24:47:22
Jason
Bit later.

00:24:47:22 - 00:24:50:15
Jason
Than than he was hoping to. So.

00:24:50:17 - 00:25:00:28
Jason
You know that because when he took off on the climb, you know, he, Yeah, it was he wanted to lead the first pitch.

00:25:00:28 - 00:25:02:14
Jason
So I was like.

00:25:02:14 - 00:25:05:28
Jason
Okay, that's fine, man, I don't really care. Like, we'll swap leads.

00:25:05:28 - 00:25:07:21
Jason
I've already let him all so I have no.

00:25:07:21 - 00:25:12:08
Jason
Skin in the game. It's, you know, whatever you want to do, if you want to take.

00:25:12:08 - 00:25:13:19
Jason
Pitch one, go for it.

00:25:15:01 - 00:25:17:13
Jason
And I'm assuming that he looked.

00:25:17:13 - 00:25:19:23
Jason
Up the route because he's the one who picked it.

00:25:19:25 - 00:25:22:18
Jason
So.

00:25:22:20 - 00:25:24:00
Jason
Yeah, when he started.

00:25:24:00 - 00:25:24:27
Jason
Taking off on the.

00:25:24:28 - 00:25:25:19
Jason
First.

00:25:25:22 - 00:25:26:13
Jason
10 or 15.

00:25:26:13 - 00:25:26:23
Jason
Feet.

00:25:26:23 - 00:25:27:24
Jason
Of of climbing.

00:25:27:24 - 00:25:30:16
Jason
He was he was pretty shaky. I mean, there was already.

00:25:30:19 - 00:25:31:26
Jason
There was already Elvis, like.

00:25:31:26 - 00:25:34:26
Jason
A little bit of Elvis, like going on.

00:25:34:28 - 00:25:37:09
Jason
Yeah. So that was.

00:25:37:09 - 00:25:39:12
Jason
A little bit of,

00:25:39:14 - 00:25:42:04
Jason
Okay. Wow. I mean.

00:25:42:07 - 00:25:51:26
Jason
If you haven't climbed in under a lot, I guess I could see that. But he he it wasn't his first time, so, Yeah, I was like, okay, that's fine. You know, sometimes you just.

00:25:51:26 - 00:25:54:13
Jason
Gotta. I've never climbed with him, so I don't know.

00:25:54:15 - 00:25:58:27
Jason
I don't know, maybe he just has to shake off for a little bit.

00:25:58:29 - 00:26:02:00
Jason
But that was definitely something that I noticed was he was.

00:26:02:03 - 00:26:06:20
Jason
He was getting a little bit of the Elvis leg on the the beginning part.

00:26:06:22 - 00:26:13:10
Jason
Because there's not a lot of protection for that part. But I haven't found the climbing on that to be.

00:26:13:13 - 00:26:15:11
Jason
Super hard or anything like that.

00:26:15:18 - 00:26:18:10
Jason
But it's definitely it's a little heady, especially right off the ground.

00:26:18:10 - 00:26:21:21
Jason
You're already pulling pull on some somewhat committing moves.

00:26:21:21 - 00:26:34:16
Jason
he gets a piece in and starts doing the the 15ft traverse, and, About halfway through that had a pretty a no rush stance.

00:26:34:18 - 00:26:35:06
Jason
I was like, hey.

00:26:35:06 - 00:26:41:18
Jason
Just see, you know, like, I'm going to be keeping you tight until you pull the roof because there's ledge.

00:26:41:18 - 00:26:43:02
Jason
For potential here.

00:26:44:02 - 00:26:45:28
Jason
Just I'd already climb the routes.

00:26:45:28 - 00:26:46:17
Jason
Already knew that.

00:26:46:17 - 00:26:48:20
Jason
But just by observing it as well.

00:26:48:20 - 00:26:53:23
Jason
So I just, put forth that information.

00:26:53:25 - 00:26:56:22
Jason
And that got into his head.

00:26:56:22 - 00:26:57:29
Jason
A little bit.

00:26:58:02 - 00:27:15:07
Jason
He made he made a his response was, oh, I don't remember his exact words, but it was like, oh, okay. Yeah. So I thought that I was, you know, helping out by informing him that, you know.

00:27:15:09 - 00:27:16:11
Jason
I'm giving you.

00:27:16:14 - 00:27:17:20
Jason
A conscious ballet.

00:27:17:20 - 00:27:18:28
Jason
And, and I'm.

00:27:18:28 - 00:27:20:08
Jason
Aware of of the risks that.

00:27:20:08 - 00:27:21:28
Jason
You're of the terrain and.

00:27:22:04 - 00:27:24:12
Jason
The risks that are coming with that. So I'm I'm going to.

00:27:24:12 - 00:27:24:28
Jason
Do everything.

00:27:24:28 - 00:27:26:14
Jason
That I can, you know.

00:27:26:16 - 00:27:30:07
Jason
So in hindsight, maybe that information is better talked.

00:27:30:07 - 00:27:30:17
Jason
About on the.

00:27:30:17 - 00:27:33:03
Jason
Ground instead of mid.

00:27:33:06 - 00:27:36:24
Jason
Mid climb. But, so he's.

00:27:36:26 - 00:27:42:20
Jason
Traversing over and I think there's one fixed pin and then he.

00:27:42:23 - 00:27:43:22
Jason
Backs that up with.

00:27:43:22 - 00:27:48:16
Jason
Another piece and then, he gets to the end of the traverse.

00:27:48:18 - 00:27:53:11
Jason
There's another pin. So he clips that with an alpine.

00:27:53:13 - 00:27:54:29
Jason
And I think he.

00:27:54:29 - 00:27:55:18
Jason
Extended.

00:27:55:18 - 00:27:56:05
Jason
It.

00:27:56:08 - 00:28:06:09
Jason
If I'm not mistaken. And then he starts to feel around for the roof, and I remember him saying.

00:28:06:09 - 00:28:10:18
Jason
Wow, it's really polished and.

00:28:10:21 - 00:28:15:08
Jason
About two seconds later he is trying to he's.

00:28:15:08 - 00:28:20:13
Jason
Pulling the moves and he's probably, you know, he's.

00:28:20:15 - 00:28:21:08
Jason
Probably almost.

00:28:21:08 - 00:28:25:01
Jason
A full body length above his, above the pin.

00:28:25:04 - 00:28:30:15
Jason
And all of a sudden he just says falling.

00:28:30:17 - 00:28:40:25
Jason
And so he's falling through the air. And the because of the nature.

00:28:40:25 - 00:28:41:05
Jason
Of.

00:28:41:05 - 00:28:42:17
Jason
The.

00:28:42:19 - 00:28:46:14
Jason
The route and where the fixed pin was.

00:28:46:16 - 00:28:48:24
Jason
The rope is the rope is.

00:28:48:24 - 00:28:51:25
Jason
Behind his leg. There's.

00:28:51:25 - 00:28:54:09
Jason
Not too much you can do to avoid that.

00:28:54:09 - 00:28:56:15
Jason
That's kind of in that one area.

00:28:57:25 - 00:28:59:27
Jason
And so as he's.

00:28:59:27 - 00:29:02:17
Jason
Falling, he's, you know, the rope catches behind.

00:29:02:17 - 00:29:08:03
Jason
His leg and starts flipping him upside down and.

00:29:08:05 - 00:29:08:29
Jason
I, you know.

00:29:09:04 - 00:29:17:12
Jason
Take in as much as I can, but as as he's coming down, he's now.

00:29:17:14 - 00:29:17:26
Jason
Mid.

00:29:17:26 - 00:29:32:00
Jason
Flip and he's horizontal and right as the rope is starting to engage and absorb some of the fall, his face meets one of the boulders at, the base of the ledge.

00:29:32:02 - 00:29:35:11
Jason
And, he his.

00:29:35:11 - 00:29:42:18
Jason
Face bounces off of that and the rope comes fully tight and he's floating horizontally.

00:29:42:20 - 00:29:43:25
Jason
In the air, maybe two.

00:29:43:25 - 00:29:48:26
Jason
Feet off of off of the actual ledge.

00:29:48:28 - 00:29:50:26
Jason
Just screaming.

00:29:50:29 - 00:29:53:29
Jason
Is, Yeah. His face was all cut up.

00:29:53:29 - 00:29:56:15
Jason
And bleeding immediately.

00:29:56:18 - 00:30:01:05
Jason
And so I just lowered him those two feet to the ground.

00:30:01:07 - 00:30:02:29
Jason
And took.

00:30:02:29 - 00:30:06:11
Jason
Myself off and ran over to him.

00:30:06:14 - 00:30:10:29
Jason
He's pretty much screaming. I can see his cheekbone or I can see his cheekbone.

00:30:11:02 - 00:30:12:09
Jason
He lacerate is cheek.

00:30:12:09 - 00:30:14:05
Jason
All the way through.

00:30:14:08 - 00:30:16:27
Jason
Lots of blood there.

00:30:17:00 - 00:30:18:16
Jason
Bleeding pretty heavily.

00:30:18:16 - 00:30:20:11
Jason
From the mouth as well.

00:30:22:06 - 00:30:24:13
Jason
And, Yeah, his his wrist.

00:30:24:13 - 00:30:27:17
Jason
Was his hand was about an.

00:30:27:17 - 00:30:30:25
Jason
Inch and a half, off to the side from.

00:30:30:25 - 00:30:31:23
Jason
Where it normally should.

00:30:31:23 - 00:30:34:16
Jason
Be. So. Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:34:16 - 00:30:44:09
Jason
So he was in a lot of pain. He was, I remember him saying, what the. What the fuck? Well, and then just screaming like.

00:30:44:09 - 00:30:46:15
Jason
He was, he was pretty much in a shocked state of.

00:30:46:15 - 00:30:48:00
Jason
Mind.

00:30:59:27 - 00:31:02:02
Jason
Yeah. Yeah, it was,

00:31:02:05 - 00:31:09:07
Jason
Really stark, like, one minute, you know, we're literally one second we're having fun. And and, you.

00:31:09:07 - 00:31:13:25
Jason
Know, racking up and and vibes are good and he's climbing and.

00:31:13:25 - 00:31:15:13
Jason
You know, we're doing the thing.

00:31:15:15 - 00:31:17:15
Jason
And half a second.

00:31:17:15 - 00:31:20:10
Jason
Later, yeah.

00:31:20:12 - 00:31:22:12
Jason
Just, looked like a murder scene.

00:31:22:12 - 00:31:24:12
Jason
I mean, just bleeding everywhere. Looked.

00:31:24:15 - 00:31:27:15
Jason
Yeah. The ground and the, the boulder were just covered in blood.

00:31:27:15 - 00:31:29:28
Jason
Everywhere, and he's just screaming.

00:31:29:28 - 00:31:40:23
Kyle
so? I want to go over to some circumstances. So he clipped the piece. He extended it. Was it a, like, single extension? Like a 60 to 120, or did he take a 120 and extend it to 240?

00:31:41:00 - 00:31:41:11
Jason
What's a.

00:31:41:11 - 00:31:47:24
Jason
Standard alpine. Extend it out. Is 120 right. Yeah. Yeah. So it was 120.

00:31:47:27 - 00:31:55:18
Jason
Yeah. No, no the pin stayed in. But it actually.

00:31:55:21 - 00:31:56:16
Jason
It bent.

00:31:56:16 - 00:31:57:18
Jason
The gate.

00:31:57:18 - 00:31:58:24
Jason
On his carabiner.

00:31:59:02 - 00:31:59:08
Jason
When.

00:31:59:08 - 00:32:01:12
Jason
We got it back. Yeah.

00:32:01:12 - 00:32:05:07
Jason
The so I lowered him down and.

00:32:05:10 - 00:32:12:19
Jason
Ran over to my first aid kit that I keep, and got some. I have, gauze with clotting.

00:32:12:19 - 00:32:14:12
Jason
Agent impregnated into it.

00:32:14:14 - 00:32:24:25
Jason
So I got that and immediately put it on his cheek just to stop the bleeding. And then called. I was able to to call 911 on my phone. I had service there, but.

00:32:24:25 - 00:32:28:27
Jason
Another group that was climbing nearby heard some screams. They had already.

00:32:28:27 - 00:32:32:00
Jason
Initiated 911. Just from the screams.

00:32:32:00 - 00:32:34:23
Jason
And they ran over,

00:32:34:25 - 00:32:36:24
Jason
And so they were helping out.

00:32:36:24 - 00:32:48:09
Jason
And then another group was trying to climb that route when we were amidst the rescue, took probably three hours. A group had come.

00:32:48:09 - 00:32:51:03
Jason
By trying to climb it. They stayed out of the.

00:32:51:03 - 00:32:52:05
Jason
Way, but I think they.

00:32:52:05 - 00:32:55:10
Jason
End up climbing it once the scene cleared out. And.

00:32:55:13 - 00:32:56:02
Jason
One of them was a.

00:32:56:02 - 00:32:57:03
Jason
Guide, so he.

00:32:57:03 - 00:32:58:09
Jason
Collected our gear.

00:32:58:16 - 00:32:59:22
Jason
And ended up.

00:32:59:24 - 00:33:00:12
Jason
Returning.

00:33:00:12 - 00:33:06:20
Jason
It to us. So that's how I saw that the the gate was all all bent.

00:33:06:24 - 00:33:08:00
Jason
But, yeah, the pin held.

00:33:08:00 - 00:33:09:13
Jason
Might have saved his life.

00:33:21:28 - 00:33:22:15
Jason
Yeah, he had a.

00:33:22:15 - 00:33:26:02
Jason
Phone about the the guy.

00:33:26:05 - 00:33:26:21
Jason
The report.

00:33:26:21 - 00:33:33:17
Jason
Says about 30ft, like. Yeah. My guess was, like, more around 25, but, you know. Good point.

00:33:41:17 - 00:33:48:05
Jason
Yeah. He's like a full body length above, above the piton which is inset in. So there's actually more rope out.

00:33:48:05 - 00:34:02:12
Jason
And all that. Yeah.

00:34:02:15 - 00:34:05:14
Jason
There's definitely you. I'm pretty sure you.

00:34:05:14 - 00:34:06:06
Jason
Can back up the.

00:34:06:06 - 00:34:07:27
Jason
Pin. It'd be in the same.

00:34:07:27 - 00:34:12:22
Jason
Spot, but I don't like to rely on fixed gear as my sole piece of protection, so.

00:34:12:27 - 00:34:13:29
Jason
I think I'm pretty sure you.

00:34:13:29 - 00:34:14:26
Jason
Can back up the pin.

00:34:14:26 - 00:34:26:04
Jason
There. When I climbed it. So this is. This is the tricky part. I couldn't tell because I wasn't directly.

00:34:26:04 - 00:34:29:18
Jason
Below him because of the traversing nature of of the route.

00:34:29:20 - 00:34:37:07
Jason
So where I went up, I was able to get, a knot in. But it was it was pretty suspect.

00:34:37:07 - 00:34:41:05
Jason
Like, it was definitely. I was I was struggling to,

00:34:41:08 - 00:34:43:29
Jason
It was an effort. Effortful placement.

00:34:43:29 - 00:34:48:17
Jason
It wasn't. Yeah, it was a pretty suspect stopper.

00:34:48:20 - 00:34:59:01
Jason
I don't know if he maybe either didn't see that. Or maybe he tried to pull up, you know, like three feet before.

00:34:59:02 - 00:35:01:20
Jason
Prior to that on the traverse. So.

00:35:01:22 - 00:35:10:25
Jason
I can't confirm that he was like. Because I remember there being, like, maybe two options just from visually of, like, maybe I could go up here.

00:35:10:25 - 00:35:12:09
Jason
Maybe I could go a little bit farther.

00:35:12:09 - 00:35:13:22
Jason
Left and then go up.

00:35:13:24 - 00:35:18:06
Jason
And I couldn't see exactly which one he was in. But when I climbed it. Yeah, there.

00:35:18:06 - 00:35:21:07
Jason
There is a placement available.

00:35:21:12 - 00:35:23:26
Jason
It's not very good, but, he.

00:35:23:26 - 00:35:30:23
Jason
Didn't really make. Yeah, he didn't really, spend too much time hanging out there.

00:35:30:23 - 00:35:59:00
Jason
It seemed like he was just committing to to just go for it. Yeah. There was no, there was no, like, you know, down climbing, reassessing that kind of stuff. It was, from what appeared to be it was just, we're just going to go for it. It's Polish, but I'm just going to pull.

00:35:59:02 - 00:36:02:03
Jason
Yeah, kind of I yeah. Like.

00:36:02:06 - 00:36:03:24
Jason
You know, everyone's. And this is where.

00:36:03:24 - 00:36:07:10
Jason
It's like, I don't know.

00:36:07:12 - 00:36:08:14
Jason
I don't know.

00:36:08:20 - 00:36:10:11
Jason
I don't want to step on toes with.

00:36:10:11 - 00:36:12:07
Jason
A new partnership.

00:36:12:09 - 00:36:13:10
Jason
Like.

00:36:13:12 - 00:36:14:17
Jason
Me personally.

00:36:14:17 - 00:36:18:20
Jason
Like my risk tolerance, I don't. I was back up a fixed pin.

00:36:18:25 - 00:36:26:03
Jason
I wouldn't I wouldn't extend that alpine out. I'm going to eat the rope, drag knowing that it's a short pitch.

00:36:26:06 - 00:36:28:05
Jason
Because that's.

00:36:28:07 - 00:36:31:22
Jason
Going to land you on the, on the ledge.

00:36:31:24 - 00:36:33:14
Jason
So there's things that I.

00:36:33:14 - 00:36:37:06
Jason
Would have done differently, but, you know, with a.

00:36:37:06 - 00:36:39:06
Jason
New partnership, I was.

00:36:39:08 - 00:36:43:14
Jason
Hesitant in that moment to.

00:36:43:17 - 00:36:44:07
Jason
Say, hey.

00:36:44:07 - 00:36:44:21
Jason
Maybe don't.

00:36:44:21 - 00:36:46:09
Jason
Extend that.

00:36:46:11 - 00:36:49:06
Jason
In hindsight, should I have?

00:36:49:06 - 00:36:58:11
Jason
Probably because that is, you know, serious consequences of, of that action. So that might have been a good thing in hindsight.

00:36:58:11 - 00:37:05:06
Jason
For me to, to do. But, but yeah, knowing it's a short pitch, I don't know.

00:37:05:26 - 00:37:24:07
Kyle
Yeah, it's. It's a tough one, too. Especially, like you said, with the new partnership, like I climb, I'm blessed to have, very routine climbing partners. And so we've gotten to a, like, a friendship and a trust and a partnership and a brotherhood where it's full, open communication. We're like, hey, man, put behind the roper. Hey, man. You know, like, that cam didn't look good to me from down here.

00:37:24:07 - 00:37:32:11
Kyle
You want to double check that real quick or, you know, like, Hey, you know, maybe if it's in a joke, we like him running out, You know, like, just forcing

00:37:34:00 - 00:37:36:18
Jason
Yeah.

00:37:36:21 - 00:37:41:20
Jason
Yeah. Yeah.

00:37:41:23 - 00:37:43:19
Jason
Yeah.

00:37:43:19 - 00:37:44:09
Kyle
communicating with you.

00:37:44:09 - 00:38:02:24
Kyle
And he does the same for me. And I think that's really, really healthy. But, yeah, I get the hesitation with a new partner. It's like, you don't want to come off as the person who's like, being hypercritical or, you know, like, I know better or whatever, because it's like you're still learning who this person is. And the part of being able to call out those things is

00:38:04:17 - 00:38:08:16
Jason
Yeah, exactly. And I'd already felt like I'd.

00:38:08:18 - 00:38:09:29
Jason
I'd already taken several.

00:38:09:29 - 00:38:13:05
Jason
Active steps on that. We were contemplating.

00:38:13:08 - 00:38:16:06
Jason
You know, should we start? Should we link some of the pitches? And this is.

00:38:16:06 - 00:38:18:02
Jason
On the approach?

00:38:18:05 - 00:38:22:20
Jason
You know, should we should we link pitches and stuff like that? And I was like, if we do, we should.

00:38:22:20 - 00:38:23:03
Jason
Not.

00:38:23:03 - 00:38:24:14
Jason
Link pitches one and two.

00:38:24:15 - 00:38:26:17
Jason
Because that leaves.

00:38:26:19 - 00:38:27:10
Jason
Because of this.

00:38:27:10 - 00:38:29:16
Jason
Beginning section.

00:38:29:18 - 00:38:30:18
Jason
If with that much.

00:38:30:18 - 00:38:31:21
Jason
Rope out, if we.

00:38:31:23 - 00:38:32:14
Jason
If we link the.

00:38:32:14 - 00:38:40:04
Jason
Pitches, the follower is going to likely hit the deck. Anyway, so I suggested that.

00:38:40:06 - 00:38:42:13
Jason
We, even though it's only like 40ft.

00:38:42:13 - 00:38:44:01
Jason
Of vertical, that.

00:38:44:01 - 00:38:44:11
Jason
We.

00:38:44:17 - 00:38:53:23
Jason
Pitch it out and we don't link pitches one and two because I was already thinking ahead to to rope stretch and the risk for for the follower.

00:38:53:26 - 00:38:54:05
Jason
No.

00:38:54:05 - 00:39:00:26
Jason
Not knowing who was going to lead what, but just knowing that it puts one more person at risk. So I felt like I was already.

00:39:00:29 - 00:39:01:28
Jason
You know.

00:39:02:00 - 00:39:03:01
Jason
Doing that and then.

00:39:03:01 - 00:39:07:09
Jason
Calling out, you know, I volunteered that information and.

00:39:07:09 - 00:39:08:07
Jason
I was, hey, I'm.

00:39:08:08 - 00:39:11:27
Jason
Keeping I'm, I'm keeping a close eye on the terrain and I'm going to keep you.

00:39:11:29 - 00:39:15:05
Jason
You know, as tired as I can without pulling you down.

00:39:15:07 - 00:39:16:27
Jason
Until you're through this, this.

00:39:16:27 - 00:39:20:11
Jason
Crux with, with alleged fall potential.

00:39:20:11 - 00:39:22:28
Jason
you know, I remember when I let it, I was like, I.

00:39:22:28 - 00:39:24:23
Jason
Was kind of spooked about hitting the ledge.

00:39:25:25 - 00:39:31:13
Jason
And sometimes I was wonder, like, is that was that, like, valid or like, was I actually that.

00:39:31:13 - 00:39:33:28
Jason
Close or was it just me being spooked? Or.

00:39:34:05 - 00:39:36:02
Jason
So I was kind of gauging.

00:39:36:05 - 00:39:44:07
Jason
And I remember thinking like, you know what? Like, I don't think you would actually hit the ledge.

00:39:44:09 - 00:39:49:13
Jason
And but I also had a piece that was higher up and I didn't extend the.

00:39:49:13 - 00:39:53:20
Jason
One underneath the roof. And, you know.

00:39:53:20 - 00:39:56:06
Jason
Shortly after I hear falling and I'm.

00:39:56:06 - 00:39:58:03
Jason
Like, oh, no.

00:39:58:05 - 00:40:07:15
Jason
This is like, this is not what supposed to happen here. This is a no fault zone. And then the rope caught behind his leg and he starts flipping.

00:40:07:15 - 00:40:09:09
Jason
And then I'm like, oh, this is.

00:40:09:09 - 00:40:22:06
Jason
The worst case scenario, right now. And then, yeah, head hit. And yeah. So it was like it was like I was frozen. I couldn't because it happened so quick. I was almost in a denial.

00:40:22:06 - 00:40:25:06
Jason
Like, you know, I.

00:40:25:07 - 00:40:30:20
Jason
Was pretty froze. I, I wish that I would have had, the wherewithal to.

00:40:30:23 - 00:40:32:27
Jason
You know, take a knee and.

00:40:32:27 - 00:40:33:29
Jason
Maybe take in, you.

00:40:33:29 - 00:40:34:11
Jason
Know.

00:40:34:11 - 00:40:38:29
Jason
Another foot of slack or something along those lines. But.

00:40:39:01 - 00:40:41:28
Jason
Yeah, you just you don't you don't know how you're.

00:40:41:28 - 00:40:49:17
Jason
Going to react, to something like that. That's that, you know, catastrophic.

00:40:49:17 - 00:40:52:04
Kyle
sudden. Yeah.

00:40:52:06 - 00:41:06:08
Kyle
What, in that brief moment of freefall, like, as a player, what techniques? And what did you do to try to mitigate as much risk as possible in that kind of like reactionary,

00:41:08:15 - 00:41:08:29
Jason
Yeah.

00:41:09:00 - 00:41:11:15
Jason
For, for this scenario.

00:41:11:18 - 00:41:17:07
Jason
Because I think it's definitely a case by case thing. But for this scenario.

00:41:17:09 - 00:41:19:18
Jason
I didn't do anything.

00:41:19:21 - 00:41:22:10
Jason
Special beyond, you know.

00:41:22:12 - 00:41:23:05
Jason
You.

00:41:23:08 - 00:41:24:17
Jason
Take down a little.

00:41:24:17 - 00:41:25:24
Jason
Bit of the slack with your.

00:41:25:24 - 00:41:29:06
Jason
Upper hand, and you, you pull it down in the break, hand through the.

00:41:29:06 - 00:41:31:12
Jason
Gregory, you know.

00:41:31:12 - 00:41:38:25
Jason
But it wasn't it wasn't like a big I didn't get a big volume in because I wasn't.

00:41:38:27 - 00:41:39:12
Jason
I didn't have.

00:41:39:12 - 00:41:40:11
Jason
That much slack out.

00:41:40:11 - 00:41:42:15
Jason
You know, because leading.

00:41:42:15 - 00:41:47:04
Jason
Up to that, every you know, I'm so attentive to.

00:41:47:07 - 00:41:47:27
Jason
Having.

00:41:47:27 - 00:41:51:15
Jason
That perfect balance of a man, a rope out of.

00:41:51:17 - 00:41:55:13
Jason
I'm going to give you just enough where I'm not.

00:41:55:13 - 00:41:58:12
Jason
You're not going to feel it. Like I'm not going to.

00:41:58:14 - 00:41:59:03
Jason
Pull you.

00:41:59:03 - 00:42:13:03
Jason
Off of the the crux. That would be the worst thing I could do. But I'm not going to have any extra, out there. So it was a constant assessment of that. And then when the actual fall was happening, it was, yeah.

00:42:13:03 - 00:42:14:25
Jason
Just your standard just.

00:42:14:27 - 00:42:19:07
Jason
A little, you know, the catching motion with the break strand.

00:42:19:10 - 00:42:20:26
Jason
And other than that.

00:42:20:28 - 00:42:32:15
Jason
I was pretty froze up. Yeah, it was more of just an internal dialog. But my body didn't really do anything different. You know, it's pretty locked up.

00:42:33:17 - 00:42:51:22
Kyle
And with the rope catching behind his leg that you've seen videos of people they like spin, like, kind of aggressively, Did that. Did he, like, spin his face into the boulder, or, like, was there added momentum there with the rope catching and his head hitting the boulder?

00:42:52:20 - 00:42:56:27
Jason
Yeah, it the spin. The spin was was starting.

00:42:56:27 - 00:43:01:16
Jason
Before the boulder, but it definitely put him in a head's first position.

00:43:05:22 - 00:43:06:24
Jason
Yes.

00:43:06:26 - 00:43:11:28
Jason
Yeah. He cracked his helmet at the temple location.

00:43:12:01 - 00:43:19:18
Jason
We looked at it in the hospital. 90% of the way through the foam. He cracked it right there. He had, he had.

00:43:19:18 - 00:43:20:25
Jason
A MIPs.

00:43:20:27 - 00:43:30:29
Jason
Helmet on. I forget the brand, but it was a MIPs one he had just bought. And, so he in the hospital, he said he's a MIPs for life kind of guy from now on.

00:43:31:01 - 00:43:31:10
Jason
That.

00:43:31:10 - 00:43:38:11
Jason
Very well could have been the difference between life and death.

00:43:38:14 - 00:43:38:21
Jason
With.

00:43:38:21 - 00:43:41:00
Jason
The rotational component to it like that of getting.

00:43:41:00 - 00:43:42:08
Jason
Flipped in the air.

00:43:43:27 - 00:44:18:15
Kyle
Now, you know, he's he's on the ground. You know, it's everybody's in shock. The other people already called 911. I had found myself in a situation like this with my accident. And I was the victim. I was the person who. Who fell and broke themselves. And my partner at the time, was just like, you know, gathering troops to get the rescue going, like, so locked in and specific, like, just fight or flight, kind of like, get shit done mode and, so critical, for the success of

00:44:20:14 - 00:44:24:08
Jason
Did he have any training? Did he give me any training or experience with that?

00:44:24:25 - 00:44:44:05
Kyle
I don't know. So again, it was first time partner. I hadn't I didn't know anything about them. It was just some, a guy who reached out on Instagram and saw that I had moved to Reno, and I was looking for partners, and he wanted to show me a particular area. And so, yeah, I didn't know anything really about him, at all.

00:44:44:08 - 00:45:11:05
Kyle
But he, he was an older, like, elder, not an, not an elder, but older than me, at least, probably in his, like, mid to late 40s. And so he, I think he had experience. I mean, he at least I mean, it was clear he was competent and he knew what he was doing, like, in order to facilitate some sort of, rescue effort and to also stay calm and focus because, I mean, I don't know, it's a pretty traumatic thing to to watch somebody, you know, explode their body.

00:45:11:05 - 00:45:30:28
Kyle
And, I think, you know, it could go multiple ways, like, people could not handle it well. And other people, it's like, okay, this is like, we got gotta we got to do something serious now. Like, what was the energy like? Like how fast it he deteriorate. What was your response like, what was the people who were involved and what did that kind of whole rescue process end up looking like?

00:45:31:04 - 00:45:32:02
Jason
Yeah. Yeah.

00:45:32:02 - 00:45:41:03
Jason
So, It was. I identify as a pretty, calm, cool and collected individual,

00:45:41:05 - 00:45:42:23
Jason
Especially.

00:45:42:26 - 00:45:46:28
Jason
In stressful situations.

00:45:47:00 - 00:45:51:15
Jason
And this is the first time where.

00:45:51:18 - 00:45:52:25
Jason
That kind of went out the.

00:45:52:25 - 00:45:57:02
Jason
Window. I, I just remember.

00:45:57:02 - 00:45:58:27
Jason
Usually I have a pretty good poker.

00:45:58:27 - 00:46:00:04
Jason
Face. I'm in health.

00:46:00:04 - 00:46:04:11
Jason
Care. So I've seen, I've seen some some.

00:46:04:11 - 00:46:10:00
Jason
Crazy shit with people, in their bodies. And, you know, the.

00:46:10:02 - 00:46:14:14
Jason
The thing you don't do is be like, oh, man, that's so messed up.

00:46:14:14 - 00:46:16:18
Jason
Like, in front of that person, right?

00:46:16:18 - 00:46:17:26
Jason
You, you.

00:46:17:29 - 00:46:20:21
Jason
You have certain dialog that you say and don't say.

00:46:21:21 - 00:46:22:26
Jason
But this time.

00:46:23:03 - 00:46:33:22
Jason
It was so traumatic. And I think being the face, the face is probably the most fucked up body part to explode. It's really,

00:46:33:24 - 00:46:44:26
Jason
Yeah, that's, that's, that's a hard one to digest. So I was just like, out loud, just like, oh, fuck. Fuck, fuck. What the fuck just happened?

00:46:45:28 - 00:46:49:23
Jason
So I was in a brief state of disbelief.

00:46:50:29 - 00:47:00:29
Jason
And then, yeah, I ran to my my bag and got my first aid kit. And I'm glad that I have, you know, I've I've.

00:47:00:29 - 00:47:02:16
Jason
Been intentional with what I keep in.

00:47:02:16 - 00:47:07:11
Jason
That I don't I've swapped stuff out. You know, it's not just Band-Aids.

00:47:07:11 - 00:47:07:22
Jason
And some.

00:47:07:22 - 00:47:09:04
Jason
Scotch tape.

00:47:09:06 - 00:47:16:01
Jason
They're, they're things in there that are designed to, you know, keep people from dying in.

00:47:16:01 - 00:47:27:14
Jason
To get to, to medical emergencies. So I was glad that I had, the clotting gauze. That's something I purchased on my own, swapped out for just regular gauze. And.

00:47:28:15 - 00:47:35:24
Jason
Put that on is. So. Yeah, I put that on. So they stop the bleeding. Got them in a somewhat comfortable position, and.

00:47:36:29 - 00:47:39:22
Jason
I have, a pretty high.

00:47:39:24 - 00:47:42:25
Jason
Volume whistle, more of an emergency whistle.

00:47:42:25 - 00:47:43:26
Jason
So I was.

00:47:43:28 - 00:47:45:01
Jason
I was clipped.

00:47:45:01 - 00:47:46:16
Jason
That to an alpine and clipped.

00:47:46:16 - 00:47:47:23
Jason
It on him, on to me.

00:47:47:23 - 00:47:51:01
Jason
So I could just have it, but I just had them a mouth. I was just blowing that.

00:47:51:01 - 00:47:52:29
Jason
As I'm doing this.

00:47:53:02 - 00:47:55:13
Jason
And then. Yeah. Called 911.

00:47:56:20 - 00:48:00:21
Jason
Is able to go hands free with, with the phone and have that right there and.

00:48:01:08 - 00:48:02:15
Jason
So yeah, I'm.

00:48:02:17 - 00:48:09:01
Jason
Just basically tending to his face right now, keeping some pressure on the wound to keep it from bleeding.

00:48:09:03 - 00:48:17:29
Jason
He's just, like, spitting blood up. Like his teeth are all fucked up and bent in and all kinds of stuff and chipped and, you know.

00:48:18:02 - 00:48:21:09
Jason
I didn't really know where it is. Well, you know, I knew what his face looked.

00:48:21:09 - 00:48:32:03
Jason
Like because we'd met that day, but, it didn't look like that, anymore. So it was. Yeah. Like a change in identity. Almost.

00:48:32:05 - 00:48:38:16
Jason
Yeah. And then within probably five minutes, somebody came running over.

00:48:38:16 - 00:48:39:20
Jason
And those are the guys.

00:48:39:20 - 00:48:40:25
Jason
Who heard the screams.

00:48:40:25 - 00:48:48:09
Jason
They were rappelling on a route next to us. And heard the screams and ran over, and he's, he's wolfer certified.

00:48:48:09 - 00:48:51:01
Jason
So, they had already initiated a.

00:48:51:01 - 00:48:51:16
Jason
Nine one.

00:48:51:16 - 00:48:51:28
Jason
One.

00:48:51:28 - 00:48:56:24
Jason
And so when I called, they they kind of already knew what was up, but they kept me on the line.

00:48:56:24 - 00:48:58:02
Jason
And.

00:48:58:04 - 00:49:08:26
Jason
So he came over and it was nice to have a second pair of hands for sure, because I was tending to the face and, trying to get him just in a comfortable body position.

00:49:08:28 - 00:49:10:07
Jason
And then.

00:49:10:09 - 00:49:11:18
Jason
The other guy, he came over.

00:49:11:18 - 00:49:15:16
Jason
And he ran through, like, a little screen test, make sure that nerves are.

00:49:15:16 - 00:49:19:08
Jason
Intact and stuff like that. Everything was fine.

00:49:20:15 - 00:49:23:26
Jason
And then. Yeah. So,

00:49:23:29 - 00:49:25:26
Jason
911 goes to.

00:49:25:27 - 00:49:34:07
Jason
Boulder police, which goes to Rocky Mountain Rescue. That's the system for for Aldo. And,

00:49:34:09 - 00:49:34:28
Jason
The head.

00:49:34:28 - 00:49:36:02
Jason
Of Rocky Mountain Rescue.

00:49:36:02 - 00:49:37:12
Jason
Lives in the.

00:49:37:12 - 00:49:41:27
Jason
Town of El Dorado. So it's basically at the base of the.

00:49:42:00 - 00:49:43:13
Jason
Of the area.

00:49:43:16 - 00:49:45:07
Jason
Although it's so steep approach.

00:49:45:07 - 00:49:48:18
Jason
So he's an air surgeon. Which is.

00:49:48:18 - 00:49:50:23
Jason
Exactly who you want to be first on the scene.

00:49:50:23 - 00:49:57:17
Jason
Right? Like someone who's just no stranger to crazy bodily stuff.

00:49:57:17 - 00:49:59:13
Jason
Like nothing could faze that guy.

00:49:59:15 - 00:50:01:01
Jason
So he came up, he had his.

00:50:01:03 - 00:50:04:02
Jason
Fanny pack full of drugs.

00:50:04:05 - 00:50:06:01
Jason
And, we were pretty.

00:50:06:01 - 00:50:09:04
Jason
Much just following his his instruction from then.

00:50:09:06 - 00:50:23:10
Jason
From then and then, so he was on scene probably 45 minutes after the phone call, which is an incredible response time. And then.

00:50:23:10 - 00:50:24:11
Jason
The rest of the.

00:50:24:11 - 00:50:25:02
Jason
Team.

00:50:25:02 - 00:50:27:08
Jason
The rescue teams started filing.

00:50:27:08 - 00:50:33:01
Jason
In, probably 30 minutes after him.

00:50:33:03 - 00:50:34:02
Jason
And so.

00:50:34:02 - 00:50:35:08
Jason
From then on, it was.

00:50:35:08 - 00:50:37:01
Jason
Pretty much just.

00:50:37:03 - 00:50:41:28
Jason
I'm here if you guys need me. And, you.

00:50:41:28 - 00:50:49:29
Jason
Know, I'm not gonna get in your guys way, so just kind of did whatever task I could, and, offered information and.

00:50:50:18 - 00:50:52:16
Jason
Yeah, the whole time, Bob is just.

00:50:52:18 - 00:50:53:08
Jason
He's still.

00:50:53:08 - 00:50:55:14
Jason
Coherent. He's answering questions.

00:50:55:14 - 00:50:58:21
Jason
Accurately. Like the little information I knew about him, everything he.

00:50:58:21 - 00:51:05:19
Jason
Was saying, you know, his age was on par, and, that kind of stuff.

00:51:05:22 - 00:51:13:15
Jason
I think we we ended up calling his dad. I, I asked if he wanted us to call anyone. I was just trying to.

00:51:13:15 - 00:51:15:03
Jason
Do things that would maybe comfort.

00:51:15:03 - 00:51:16:29
Jason
Him and,

00:51:17:02 - 00:51:19:26
Jason
That kind of stuff. So he wanted us to call his dad.

00:51:19:26 - 00:51:28:00
Jason
So we put him on speakerphone, and he talked through that a little bit. And yeah, that was pretty much it.

00:51:28:00 - 00:51:30:15
Jason
And they took him off in a sled.

00:51:30:18 - 00:51:31:26
Jason
They.

00:51:31:28 - 00:51:34:02
Jason
Yeah. The doc reset his wrist.

00:51:34:02 - 00:51:36:14
Jason
In the in the field super.

00:51:36:14 - 00:51:36:25
Jason
Quick.

00:51:36:25 - 00:51:43:19
Jason
They gave him I think they gave him fentanyl. And then that was just for for the normal pain.

00:51:43:19 - 00:51:44:07
Jason
And then.

00:51:44:09 - 00:51:46:16
Jason
The game, a little bit of morphine.

00:51:46:18 - 00:51:47:05
Jason
And then as.

00:51:47:05 - 00:51:48:21
Jason
Soon as.

00:51:48:23 - 00:51:49:28
Jason
The doc was like.

00:51:50:05 - 00:51:54:12
Jason
Hey, is that morphine kicked in yet? As soon as he said yes.

00:51:54:14 - 00:51:57:22
Jason
He reset his wrist and splinted it in about 30s.

00:51:58:26 - 00:51:59:06
Jason
Yeah.

00:51:59:14 - 00:52:02:11
Jason
Super impressive because he was that was his main complaint.

00:52:02:11 - 00:52:06:07
Jason
And Bob's main complaint was that his wrist was really killing him. So.

00:52:06:10 - 00:52:07:20
Jason
You know, when something's.

00:52:07:20 - 00:52:13:10
Jason
Dislocated, it's just messing up all all the tissue inside there, and the nerves are all out of whack.

00:52:13:10 - 00:52:15:07
Jason
So,

00:52:15:10 - 00:52:16:15
Jason
Yeah, he wasn't.

00:52:16:17 - 00:52:17:15
Jason
Really complaining about.

00:52:17:15 - 00:52:18:15
Jason
His face too much.

00:52:20:05 - 00:52:24:21
Jason
So it was good. It was good that he got his wrist splinted, in there?

00:52:24:23 - 00:52:34:20
Jason
Yeah.

00:52:34:23 - 00:52:40:21
Jason
Yeah. Pretty much like our height down with some of the rescue guys.

00:52:40:24 - 00:52:42:13
Jason
And.

00:52:42:15 - 00:52:44:17
Jason
Yeah, kind of.

00:52:44:19 - 00:52:51:05
Jason
You know, I was pretty emotional. I once, once they got him into the ambulance, I.

00:52:51:05 - 00:52:53:15
Jason
Felt like my job was.

00:52:53:15 - 00:52:55:04
Jason
Done, like.

00:52:55:07 - 00:53:04:09
Jason
And I could finally tend to my own needs, whereas the rest of the time, you know, I'm. I'm a part of the team. I'm here with the bigger objective.

00:53:04:11 - 00:53:05:15
Jason
So once, once.

00:53:05:15 - 00:53:10:24
Jason
The, once he took off, I was talking to some the first responders and.

00:53:10:26 - 00:53:12:26
Jason
Getting, hey, where's he going to be going?

00:53:12:26 - 00:53:16:10
Jason
And they were getting some information from me.

00:53:16:12 - 00:53:18:13
Jason
For the report is what I'm assuming.

00:53:18:13 - 00:53:20:09
Jason
And yeah, it was I was pretty.

00:53:20:09 - 00:53:21:15
Jason
Emotional and just.

00:53:21:18 - 00:53:23:17
Jason
Kind of crying and.

00:53:23:20 - 00:53:28:13
Jason
Yeah, it was it was very. It was very traumatic.

00:53:28:16 - 00:53:29:04
Jason
And it.

00:53:29:04 - 00:53:35:09
Jason
Really kind of highlighted, I don't know, like the.

00:53:35:12 - 00:53:38:02
Jason
The special bond that.

00:53:38:02 - 00:53:40:09
Jason
Happens when you share a rope with someone.

00:53:40:11 - 00:53:43:17
Jason
Like I treated Bob is my brother.

00:53:43:19 - 00:53:45:13
Jason
Even though I'd only met him once.

00:53:45:15 - 00:53:49:26
Jason
That was my first time meeting him. But, you know, I treated him like I would my brother out there.

00:53:50:24 - 00:53:52:11
Jason
So that was.

00:53:52:14 - 00:53:53:24
Jason
Pretty.

00:53:53:26 - 00:53:56:12
Jason
Yeah, it was. It was quite intense for.

00:53:56:14 - 00:53:58:05
Jason
You know, our first date.

00:53:59:26 - 00:54:00:12
Kyle
Yeah.

00:54:00:12 - 00:54:07:23
Kyle
That's, That's a heavy one, man. Yeah. I like I said, I only experienced anything like that. Is me doing that to somebody else.

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00:55:05:04 - 00:55:24:14
Kyle
What, what kind of, what kind of happened afterward. Like, do you guys, Chad, has there been any sort of debrief or has like, he reached out or, you know, what was that kind of, you know, because there seems to be like an emotional cliff edge or at least a knowledge cliff edge where you're like, man, fuck, that was crazy.

00:55:24:14 - 00:55:33:15
Kyle
You know, I at least have coffee over it or something like, what was the kind of closure like, and what did that experience end up? Kind of, like,

00:55:33:15 - 00:55:49:26
Jason
Yeah, yeah. So after. After they took off, I got from the first responders what hospital they were taking them to. So, I was like, all right, you know, I'll give it, like, an hour, or so, and I'll.

00:55:49:29 - 00:55:51:17
Jason
I'll go go see him that way.

00:55:51:17 - 00:55:55:29
Jason
He's all set up and in that kind of stuff. So I, I jumped.

00:55:55:29 - 00:55:57:18
Jason
In the into the water.

00:55:57:18 - 00:56:04:01
Jason
And did a Wim Hof cold plunge just to reset my nervous system because I was, I was a mess there.

00:56:04:01 - 00:56:07:10
Jason
This is it. Kind of. There was two other.

00:56:07:10 - 00:56:09:26
Jason
Instances that happened, like two weeks before.

00:56:09:27 - 00:56:12:22
Jason
That that were pretty.

00:56:12:24 - 00:56:14:02
Jason
Pretty intense negative.

00:56:14:02 - 00:56:20:09
Jason
Experiences in life for me. So this was my nervous system was already, already.

00:56:20:09 - 00:56:27:16
Jason
Struggling, just, you know, kind of keep up. And this traumatic event really pushed me over. Sigh.

00:56:27:19 - 00:56:28:26
Jason
I jumped into the.

00:56:28:26 - 00:56:44:11
Jason
Creek there, El Dorado Creek in, freezing cold snowmelt water and, just did some deep breathing and calmed the nervous system down. And then I went to drive to the hospital and got in there.

00:56:44:13 - 00:56:46:05
Jason
I was surprised that they let me.

00:56:46:05 - 00:56:55:20
Jason
In since I'm not family, but, I was like, coming up with like some whole scheme of how I was, like, related. And I was like, ready to like, you know.

00:56:55:25 - 00:56:56:15
Jason
Say whatever.

00:56:56:15 - 00:57:00:18
Jason
Story I needed to.

00:57:00:20 - 00:57:04:22
Jason
But they let me in, they let me in, and.

00:57:04:25 - 00:57:10:19
Jason
I was just. Yeah, like, dude, I'm so glad you're alive. And he was.

00:57:10:24 - 00:57:13:08
Jason
Awake, and with it, they doped him up pretty good.

00:57:13:08 - 00:57:19:28
Jason
So he was, he wasn't in super pain, so he was able to have a good conversation and.

00:57:20:01 - 00:57:23:21
Jason
One of the first things he said was, man, I'm glad.

00:57:23:21 - 00:57:26:04
Jason
There wasn't any more slack in the system. You know.

00:57:26:04 - 00:57:26:28
Jason
Another.

00:57:27:01 - 00:57:32:27
Jason
Another couple of inches and things could have been different. And I was like, yeah, I.

00:57:33:00 - 00:57:37:06
Jason
I really, I got pretty emotional from hearing.

00:57:37:06 - 00:57:55:18
Jason
That because up until that point, I had been putting a lot of blame and guilt on me. Like, if this is my fault, I fucked up, like, what a terrible player and partner. So I was really putting a lot of blame on me. Which I don't really.

00:57:55:18 - 00:57:56:09
Jason
Think was.

00:57:56:09 - 00:57:57:05
Jason
Was accurate and.

00:57:57:05 - 00:57:59:22
Jason
Fair. But it's kind of almost.

00:57:59:22 - 00:58:09:02
Jason
Like a survivor's guilt kind of thing. Like, you know, just wanted to make sure that, you know, check myself and see what I could have done differently.

00:58:09:04 - 00:58:09:23
Jason
So that meant a.

00:58:09:23 - 00:58:11:04
Jason
Lot to to hear that from him.

00:58:11:04 - 00:58:15:18
Jason
But then, yeah, just hung out in the hospital with him and.

00:58:15:20 - 00:58:16:07
Jason
Brought him his.

00:58:16:07 - 00:58:19:23
Jason
Gear and stuff like that, and,

00:58:19:25 - 00:58:20:08
Jason
The doc.

00:58:20:08 - 00:58:20:28
Jason
Came in and.

00:58:20:28 - 00:58:26:13
Jason
Started selling his face up right in front of me, while he's having a conversation. And I'm like, do you guys.

00:58:26:13 - 00:58:37:22
Jason
Want me to leave or are we good here? And they're like, no, you're fine, man. As long as you don't mind. I was like, no, this is fine. So I kind of, you know, try to keep him distracted.

00:58:37:25 - 00:58:39:29
Jason
As the doc is like sewing.

00:58:39:29 - 00:58:41:18
Jason
Is is messed up.

00:58:41:18 - 00:58:44:29
Jason
Cheek. And he was like.

00:58:45:01 - 00:58:57:07
Jason
The surgeon goes, yeah. It's like it's like sewing wet paper towels. And he's saying this, like, right in front of him. It's like Jesus. So, yeah. And then they were taking.

00:58:57:07 - 00:59:03:20
Jason
Him to the, they were going to take him to the to surgery to do surgery on his wrist. He ended up.

00:59:03:22 - 00:59:09:11
Jason
He ended up, fracturing his cheek, blowing out a couple teeth.

00:59:09:11 - 00:59:11:16
Jason
And.

00:59:11:19 - 00:59:12:04
Jason
Also some.

00:59:12:04 - 00:59:14:18
Jason
Compound fractures in his wrist, along with.

00:59:14:18 - 00:59:16:16
Jason
The dislocation. So they were taking.

00:59:16:16 - 00:59:17:15
Jason
Him into surgery. So I was.

00:59:17:15 - 00:59:19:04
Jason
Like, all right, man, like, you know.

00:59:19:04 - 00:59:20:17
Jason
I'll get out here.

00:59:22:01 - 00:59:25:05
Jason
And yeah, the next day I.

00:59:25:07 - 00:59:28:06
Jason
Hit him up and, was like, hey, you.

00:59:28:06 - 00:59:29:00
Jason
Know, can I come.

00:59:29:00 - 00:59:30:05
Jason
Visit?

00:59:30:08 - 00:59:34:29
Jason
You know, I really want to, like, see you and check in on you and stuff like that. And, yeah.

00:59:35:02 - 00:59:35:13
Jason
He'd been.

00:59:35:13 - 00:59:36:14
Jason
Going through a lot and lots.

00:59:36:14 - 00:59:39:00
Jason
Of lots of things going on appointments.

00:59:39:00 - 00:59:41:00
Jason
Doctors, all that stuff in the hospital.

00:59:41:03 - 00:59:43:08
Jason
Family came in. So he he had.

00:59:43:08 - 00:59:55:09
Jason
A lot of stuff going on. So he's, he was like, you know what? Like, I don't think now's a good time. Like, you know, I have one 15 minute break before my family gets here. So I kind of want to, like, just decompress.

00:59:55:09 - 00:59:57:13
Jason
I was like, yeah, dude. Totally. Like.

00:59:57:16 - 01:00:04:11
Jason
I get it, man. Just, you know, let me know when I can come see you. And since.

01:00:04:11 - 01:00:05:07
Jason
Then.

01:00:05:10 - 01:00:13:11
Jason
It's been crickets. Haven't heard from them. Reached out several times.

01:00:13:14 - 01:00:16:12
Jason
You know, I don't know. I don't know.

01:00:18:06 - 01:00:22:02
Kyle
What have you. What narrative have you played with in your mind?

01:00:23:13 - 01:00:30:12
Jason
The things that I've come to accept.

01:00:30:14 - 01:00:34:13
Jason
Yeah, I, I've spent some time thinking about it and.

01:00:34:13 - 01:00:36:23
Jason
Really.

01:00:36:26 - 01:00:41:09
Jason
Have accepted that, you know, whatever.

01:00:41:12 - 01:00:42:03
Jason
It is.

01:00:42:05 - 01:00:47:05
Jason
It's, you know, it's okay. I've accepted the fact that, you know, there's a possible.

01:00:47:08 - 01:00:51:20
Jason
City that he blames 100% of.

01:00:51:20 - 01:00:52:05
Jason
Everything.

01:00:52:05 - 01:00:54:06
Jason
That happened on me.

01:00:54:09 - 01:00:57:28
Jason
And, you know, if that's what.

01:00:58:03 - 01:01:00:01
Jason
He believes, then.

01:01:00:03 - 01:01:05:18
Jason
You know, I've. I've reached out several times. You know, I was hoping.

01:01:05:18 - 01:01:08:16
Jason
To get a debrief at least.

01:01:08:18 - 01:01:09:08
Jason
I was hoping.

01:01:09:08 - 01:01:11:15
Jason
To continue.

01:01:11:17 - 01:01:12:27
Jason
You know, to help him.

01:01:12:27 - 01:01:14:27
Jason
Through his recovery with.

01:01:15:00 - 01:01:16:04
Jason
With the goal of.

01:01:16:04 - 01:01:21:16
Jason
You know, broken up together at some point. Like, I really got along well with him.

01:01:21:19 - 01:01:38:14
Jason
And thought we would make a great partnership. So that's one possibility. I also have accepted that maybe, you know, he doesn't blame me for anything, and he's just got a lot of things going on in life.

01:01:38:16 - 01:01:40:04
Jason
And.

01:01:40:07 - 01:01:43:28
Jason
I've also accepted that, you know, are where I might be.

01:01:43:28 - 01:01:45:08
Jason
A trigger for.

01:01:45:08 - 01:01:53:22
Jason
For him and not not be anything personal. But he's not ready to, to open that box up. So.

01:01:53:22 - 01:02:03:15
Jason
I've kind of played around with a lot of, of possibilities and just come to peace with, you know, whatever, you know, whatever he decides is his.

01:02:03:15 - 01:02:07:03
Jason
Own reality. And I have done what I can.

01:02:07:03 - 01:02:11:12
Jason
And, you know, the ball's kind of in his court, but, yeah.

01:02:13:07 - 01:02:37:11
Kyle
Not to try to be, like, pointing fingers here. Or talking about blame. Because it's not really. There's no way to really know. What? Actually, like what if there was fault? It doesn't really matter because we don't know the, like, the actual particular circumstances. But, like, you said, you want to do your fair assessment of, like what? What you could have possibly done.

01:02:37:13 - 01:03:00:11
Kyle
And so like, in hindsight, like looking back at that situation, like if you were to go back and be a third person on the wall and just be like, hey, Jason, like, this is about to happen, maybe you should do this. Like, what do you think you could have done, you know, in that exact situation, if you had the foresight that something like that was going to happen?

01:03:00:17 - 01:03:21:25
Jason
Yeah, I think that, going over the specific risk for for pitch one of the ledge for potential, and, just really, really spending some time, having a, talk about that of, like, hey, this is this is what's gonna this is what the terrain is. This is the risk right here. I think that would.

01:03:21:25 - 01:03:23:07
Jason
Have been beneficial to.

01:03:23:07 - 01:03:44:27
Jason
Just have a conversation, but on the ground, not mid root. Is probably a better time. Better time for me calling out. Hey, you know, there's ledge for here. So I'm, you know, you know, I'm going to do what I can to, to keep this minimal amount of rope out as possible. That might not have been the best timing for that.

01:03:46:02 - 01:03:48:18
Jason
I would have I would have called him out for.

01:03:48:18 - 01:03:51:16
Jason
Extending the peace,

01:03:51:18 - 01:03:53:27
Jason
When it when it happened.

01:03:53:29 - 01:03:56:14
Jason
And, Yeah, I would have.

01:03:56:14 - 01:03:59:16
Jason
Looked around and had a game plan.

01:03:59:16 - 01:04:02:17
Jason
In my mind of what my terrain was.

01:04:02:19 - 01:04:14:02
Jason
That way I know. Can I run back? Can I run to my left to take in slack? You know, that's one of the fastest ways is just to move your legs. So.

01:04:14:04 - 01:04:17:01
Jason
Just having a real kind of an emergency.

01:04:17:01 - 01:04:23:24
Jason
Plan as a player for for where I'm at and where my options are, so to move around would.

01:04:23:24 - 01:04:24:25
Jason
Be, would be the, the.

01:04:24:25 - 01:04:26:09
Jason
Only things that I would.

01:04:26:11 - 01:04:53:17
Jason
Really have changed.

01:04:56:04 - 01:05:13:29
Jason
Yeah. Chugging to be beer.

01:05:14:01 - 01:05:19:08
Jason
Yeah, yeah. It, Yeah, I think any more.

01:05:19:08 - 01:05:22:19
Jason
Slack and that fall is a free fall. Instead of the.

01:05:22:19 - 01:05:23:01
Jason
Rope.

01:05:23:01 - 01:05:23:21
Jason
Starting.

01:05:23:21 - 01:05:24:28
Jason
To engage and absorb.

01:05:24:28 - 01:05:30:00
Jason
Some of that, in the last two feet before impact. All.

01:05:30:00 - 01:05:33:11
Jason
The all of the docs and the physicians in the.

01:05:33:11 - 01:05:35:06
Jason
Surgeons at the hospital when they.

01:05:35:07 - 01:05:36:00
Jason
You know, they just get a.

01:05:36:00 - 01:05:38:01
Jason
Page, they say, you know.

01:05:38:03 - 01:05:42:19
Jason
You know, 30 year old patient, you know.

01:05:42:21 - 01:05:45:14
Jason
Head trauma, 30ft fall.

01:05:46:04 - 01:05:49:12
Jason
None of them expected his brain to be in check.

01:05:49:14 - 01:05:52:24
Jason
But his brain and a spinal cord, they cleared it.

01:05:52:25 - 01:05:58:13
Jason
There was no, Yeah, there was no brain injury. There was no spinal cord damage.

01:05:58:13 - 01:05:59:28
Jason
And those are.

01:06:00:01 - 01:06:01:20
Jason
You know, those are life changing.

01:06:01:27 - 01:06:03:24
Jason
Injuries.

01:06:03:26 - 01:06:20:21
Jason
The other ones are, in comparison, you know, a lot less dangerous and long lasting. Those are more recoverable. So, I think that the attentive play and the, the helmet.

01:06:20:23 - 01:06:21:26
Jason
And maybe some.

01:06:21:26 - 01:06:22:10
Jason
Part of.

01:06:22:10 - 01:06:28:00
Jason
The MIPs component, all three of those, played a role in to.

01:06:28:00 - 01:06:29:19
Jason
Keeping it from being.

01:06:29:19 - 01:06:30:20
Jason
A very well could have.

01:06:30:20 - 01:06:32:08
Jason
Been a fatal accident.

01:06:32:13 - 01:06:33:05
Jason
Where could have.

01:06:33:05 - 01:06:34:04
Jason
Ended his life.

01:06:34:04 - 01:06:36:11
Jason
Or,

01:06:36:14 - 01:06:44:08
Jason
The slightly better option, you know, is, you know, maybe just a brain injury or a spinal cord injury, which still is not, a good life. So.

01:06:44:10 - 01:06:54:25
Jason
You know, I think back I think back what? One of the one of the, the guy who I got a I found a note from.

01:06:54:25 - 01:06:58:29
Jason
At the climbing gym and went climbing with him because he had weekday availability.

01:06:59:01 - 01:07:06:14
Jason
It's this old time. Like his old school trad climber. Been doing it since, like he climbed, you know.

01:07:06:14 - 01:07:12:07
Jason
Before cams really came out, you know, like he was. He identified that. So,

01:07:12:09 - 01:07:15:28
Jason
But man, I and this is when I was really learning how to lead trad.

01:07:15:28 - 01:07:17:19
Jason
And.

01:07:17:21 - 01:07:32:01
Jason
I just looked down, and he's out there just watching birds fly around with, like, who knows how much slack he wants out? Just totally not paying any attention to me. And I'm just like, wow.

01:07:32:03 - 01:07:33:08
Jason
Okay, so I.

01:07:33:11 - 01:08:00:23
Jason
Have stopped climbing with that guy. But that he's not the only one. It's just like a really clear example, but there's there's I've been climbing with quite a lot of people who they just they have way too much slack out. Just long and short. Just they just have they have too much slack out. And they're not as attentive and I just think back.

01:08:00:23 - 01:08:01:28
Jason
And, you know.

01:08:01:28 - 01:08:02:09
Jason
In.

01:08:02:09 - 01:08:03:00
Jason
Reflecting.

01:08:03:00 - 01:08:14:13
Jason
On this experience, on some level, I almost I feel grateful that I was the one belaying because it very well could have been another random.

01:08:14:13 - 01:08:18:18
Jason
Person on Facebook. And like Bob, was.

01:08:18:18 - 01:08:19:20
Jason
The one who wanted to do.

01:08:19:20 - 01:08:20:06
Jason
The route.

01:08:20:06 - 01:08:22:08
Jason
So he was going to do that.

01:08:22:08 - 01:08:25:20
Jason
Route with somebody. Yeah.

01:08:25:20 - 01:08:32:24
Jason
And how easily things could have been different, with a player who.

01:08:32:24 - 01:08:34:12
Jason
Might not have been as attentive.

01:08:34:12 - 01:08:37:00
Jason
In that moment, as a very.

01:08:37:00 - 01:08:38:07
Jason
Real possibility.

01:08:38:07 - 01:08:39:16
Jason
So in some regard.

01:08:39:16 - 01:08:41:12
Jason
I do feel.

01:08:41:14 - 01:08:45:26
Jason
A level of gratitude, for being put into that.

01:08:45:26 - 01:09:07:27
Jason
Situation. Because I think I had a, I think I had an influence on him in a positive way. Yeah.

01:09:08:00 - 01:09:08:19
Jason
Oh, man.

01:09:08:19 - 01:09:12:23
Jason
Yeah. It's been a trip.

01:09:12:25 - 01:09:13:14
Jason
Before this.

01:09:13:14 - 01:09:14:01
Jason
Accident.

01:09:14:01 - 01:09:15:10
Jason
I.

01:09:15:13 - 01:09:30:06
Jason
I never had, like, a bad head day climbing. Like I could go out any day. I was going out climbing. I was ready to, to push the grade and and try my hardest. Yeah. I was still scared of falling, but, But it didn't. It didn't,

01:09:30:08 - 01:09:32:07
Jason
Inhibit me since.

01:09:32:07 - 01:09:44:22
Jason
The accident. It's been like, 180. It's been like. Yeah, very, the the initial phase, I'd say the acute phase of my recovery.

01:09:44:25 - 01:09:45:11
Jason
I wasn't.

01:09:45:11 - 01:10:11:04
Jason
Trusting any bull er for anything, like even ones who I have trusted. I had this irrational level of discharge just with the bull layer, when I was climbing. And I think that kind of stemmed from the experience, really highlighted the importance of a bilayer. And it just really was like, wow, are my.

01:10:11:06 - 01:10:21:27
Jason
Players really looking out for me? I mean, they're keeping the the leader alive there. There's such a a key component to the partnership.

01:10:21:29 - 01:10:26:23
Jason
And yeah, it kind of morphed into I had a distrust for.

01:10:26:26 - 01:10:28:01
Jason
For my own, for.

01:10:28:01 - 01:10:46:05
Jason
My players, their skill and their ability to assess stuff. So I was just like, yeah, it was it was kind of irrational, but that's just where where I was at. See, I had a hard time. My head game was absolutely terrible.

01:10:46:07 - 01:10:46:13
Jason
You.

01:10:46:13 - 01:10:55:15
Jason
Know, this was probably five months ago. But, I'm breaking through and and improving that. But in those.

01:10:55:15 - 01:10:58:24
Jason
First four months, I'd say.

01:10:58:24 - 01:11:26:14
Jason
It was. Yeah, I, I would any any ledge I would see, I would freak out, I'd have visual flashbacks of, of watching him. Yeah. Watching Bob face explode. So I was like, oh, so I wasn't, I wasn't climbing near my grade. I wasn't trusting my players. I wouldn't take a fall at all. Yeah. So that was,

01:11:26:17 - 01:11:28:18
Jason
That was quite a new experience for.

01:11:28:18 - 01:11:34:26
Jason
Me of going out climbing and not having the mental space to to push it on.

01:11:34:26 - 01:11:36:26
Jason
On, on lead.

01:11:36:28 - 01:12:30:20
Jason
Which I was so familiar with.

01:12:30:23 - 01:12:35:26
Jason
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know it's a great question. Some things I've.

01:12:35:26 - 01:12:37:16
Jason
Done immediately, I.

01:12:37:19 - 01:12:39:16
Jason
Remember.

01:12:39:18 - 01:12:40:28
Jason
Yeah. I'm just I'm way more.

01:12:40:28 - 01:12:48:17
Jason
Communicative with my players on the ground and on the root. On the ground. I'm telling them.

01:12:48:19 - 01:12:49:18
Jason
Hey.

01:12:49:21 - 01:12:58:15
Jason
I don't want a lot of slack out. I want kind of a straight line. From from you to the first ball. With the rope.

01:12:58:17 - 01:12:59:01
Jason
Firm for.

01:12:59:01 - 01:13:01:15
Jason
Most of the route. Like I.

01:13:01:17 - 01:13:02:05
Jason
I've always been.

01:13:02:05 - 01:13:03:10
Jason
Wanting to accept challenges.

01:13:03:10 - 01:13:05:22
Jason
So I'm like, I like, short me.

01:13:05:22 - 01:13:16:29
Jason
Fine. I don't really care. Like, I'll just take that as a challenge. I'd rather get short changed and, deal with that than than have a long fall. So I was.

01:13:16:29 - 01:13:20:13
Jason
Communicating my preferences.

01:13:20:16 - 01:13:24:22
Jason
And then also was identifying.

01:13:24:25 - 01:13:25:12
Jason
Oh, you know.

01:13:25:12 - 01:13:31:09
Jason
There's a ledge there. Let's, you know, make sure you keep me tight here.

01:13:31:12 - 01:13:32:12
Jason
And then when I'm on.

01:13:32:12 - 01:13:36:00
Jason
Route, also, you know, especially with trad climbing, you.

01:13:36:00 - 01:13:37:17
Jason
Know, you're you're outside of your.

01:13:37:19 - 01:13:46:27
Jason
Bilayer for a good portion of, of a lot of climbs on trad. So it can be hard for them to see when what the climber with the terrain they're climbers on.

01:13:46:27 - 01:13:49:01
Jason
So I'm just radioing.

01:13:49:01 - 01:13:52:23
Jason
In on what I pitch. I'm always have my radios, so,

01:13:52:25 - 01:13:56:22
Jason
I just came over a ledge, you know, watch me here.

01:13:56:25 - 01:14:00:25
Jason
So just really calling out that to my players.

01:14:00:25 - 01:14:05:26
Jason
And, and just having a lot more conversations with them on the on the drives to the crag, on the.

01:14:05:26 - 01:14:06:28
Jason
Drives after the.

01:14:06:28 - 01:14:10:02
Jason
Crag, you know, just.

01:14:10:02 - 01:14:18:06
Jason
Opening up that conversation and opening up the communication line between the player in The Climber. I feel like I've done.

01:14:18:06 - 01:14:24:29
Jason
That a little bit before, but, not very consistently. And one thing I.

01:14:24:29 - 01:14:25:28
Jason
Realize is I.

01:14:25:29 - 01:14:26:17
Jason
Really only.

01:14:26:17 - 01:14:27:18
Jason
Communicate him.

01:14:27:18 - 01:14:29:20
Jason
Over a ledge. If it was.

01:14:29:20 - 01:14:32:14
Jason
Terrain where I felt like I could fall.

01:14:32:17 - 01:14:33:21
Jason
And now.

01:14:33:24 - 01:14:36:22
Jason
I do it, regardless of how challenging.

01:14:36:22 - 01:14:39:29
Jason
Or easier the terrain is.

01:14:40:02 - 01:14:44:14
Jason
Yeah. So that's like a difference that I've noticed, before and after the accident.

01:14:51:04 - 01:14:51:21
Jason
yeah.

01:14:51:27 - 01:14:54:12
Jason
I don't I don't think I do it.

01:14:54:13 - 01:15:17:20
Jason
Now because it's not as impactful, but but yeah, even yeah, even old players like I told all my climbing partners about it, because I wanted to be fully transparent on where on that and like, hey, you know, I want to go out and have this kind of a day, but, you know, life's been pretty crazy. This is an accident that happened.

01:15:17:20 - 01:15:34:14
Jason
And, Yeah. So just keeping keeping, being fully transparent with with what that was and where I was at that day with it, has been really important, to make sure everyone understands, you know, what's going on in someone's head.

01:15:34:22 - 01:15:35:14
Kyle
Yeah.

01:15:35:17 - 01:15:48:23
Kyle
Of all the people that you've talked to, if you had any, like, questions that are out of the ordinary or reflections from the like, when one of those people from the third party, that kind of cut you off guard or made you think a little bit deeper about the situation.

01:15:49:06 - 01:15:53:00
Jason
No. Not really. Yeah. No, everyone's just been really supportive.

01:15:53:01 - 01:15:54:19
Jason
And.

01:15:54:21 - 01:15:55:11
Jason
Yeah, everyone's.

01:15:55:11 - 01:16:04:06
Jason
Been super supportive, and, no questions that have come up have been like, add a left fielder, something that hadn't already been turned over.

01:16:04:06 - 01:16:31:17
Kyle
when you're I mean you're working through this now but like when you're above gear and you're kind of like starting to feel mistrust in the player or the system like It's just like a lack of the inability to be present. Right. Because you're constantly thinking about. The potential, the what if, you know, not being able to focus on the actual movement of the climb?

01:16:33:06 - 01:16:47:11
Kyle
Has that experience started to, like, fade a little bit more now? Are you getting more control over that? Like, are you feeling a bit. You know, it's only been five months. Are you feeling like you're getting into a better place now? It's like your lead head and kind of like your

01:16:49:12 - 01:16:49:25
Jason
Oh, yeah.

01:16:49:25 - 01:16:54:21
Jason
For sure. Yeah. About two. But two months ago.

01:16:54:21 - 01:17:00:24
Jason
Was when I started. Really, like, getting back comfortable with, like.

01:17:00:28 - 01:17:01:08
Jason
Pushing.

01:17:01:08 - 01:17:01:26
Jason
The great again.

01:17:01:26 - 01:17:05:15
Jason
On lead on on gear.

01:17:05:17 - 01:17:09:04
Jason
Yeah. It took a lot of, like.

01:17:09:06 - 01:17:12:23
Jason
A lot of good days and bad days.

01:17:12:26 - 01:17:23:13
Jason
You know, and just coming to terms with that of, you know, I think I was pretty fortunate before the accident to have mostly good days. A lot of partners I've had.

01:17:23:13 - 01:17:25:06
Jason
They've, you know, oh, you know.

01:17:25:06 - 01:17:28:10
Jason
I've got a good head day and a bad head day, and I'm like, oh, I didn't know.

01:17:28:12 - 01:17:34:11
Jason
I didn't know their bad head days. You know, I'd only have you just have good ones, you know.

01:17:34:13 - 01:17:36:26
Jason
So to, to deal with that new challenge.

01:17:38:20 - 01:17:41:05
Jason
But yeah, I think.

01:17:41:07 - 01:17:46:03
Jason
You know, I approach the risks a little bit differently. Now, I've noticed.

01:17:46:03 - 01:17:49:26
Jason
That, you know, in the,

01:17:49:28 - 01:17:51:06
Jason
The year leading.

01:17:51:06 - 01:17:52:16
Jason
Up to Bob and.

01:17:52:16 - 01:17:55:11
Jason
I,

01:17:55:14 - 01:17:55:23
Jason
Yeah.

01:17:55:24 - 01:17:59:14
Jason
Bob's accident, I was treating.

01:17:59:14 - 01:18:05:26
Jason
All my track days as alpine training objectives. And for me, that meant.

01:18:05:29 - 01:18:10:07
Jason
How do I be more efficient? And for me.

01:18:10:07 - 01:18:21:07
Jason
That was place less gear. You know, you're not bringing all the pieces. You might want to feel comfortable out there in the alpine, because that's a slower ascent and.

01:18:21:10 - 01:18:22:01
Jason
The more gear.

01:18:22:01 - 01:18:28:11
Jason
You place. So you got to take the time to stop and place it and fiddle with it. And then your client, your, your follower has to.

01:18:28:14 - 01:18:29:10
Jason
Clean it and.

01:18:29:10 - 01:19:00:08
Jason
Rack it and pass it back off. So I was working on becoming efficient for alpine objectives. So I was running things out quite a bit. You know, I was placing just out of necessity, like only when I needed to, and now I'm placing more often. I'm letting my I'm not extending pieces as often as I would. I only extend out of pure necessity now,

01:19:00:11 - 01:19:09:21
Jason
So I'm coming at it from maybe, I'm climbing a little bit safer in the same type of terrain than I had been. So that feels.

01:19:09:21 - 01:19:11:24
Jason
Like a good way to kind of manage some.

01:19:11:24 - 01:19:14:10
Jason
Of that risk.

01:19:14:13 - 01:19:16:18
Jason
And I'm a lot more calculated.

01:19:16:18 - 01:19:21:09
Jason
Of when I'm. When I'm going to push.

01:19:21:09 - 01:19:24:22
Jason
My grade that day at the crack, you know, I'm.

01:19:24:22 - 01:19:25:22
Jason
Only going to I'm going.

01:19:25:22 - 01:19:33:17
Jason
To be selective with which routes. If there's a couple nines and I'm wanting to do nines that day, you know, to they take good.

01:19:33:17 - 01:19:34:25
Jason
Gear is the question.

01:19:34:25 - 01:19:35:10
Jason
I've always.

01:19:35:10 - 01:19:36:23
Jason
Asked when pushing my grade.

01:19:36:23 - 01:19:38:05
Jason
But now I'm asking.

01:19:38:10 - 01:19:43:07
Jason
How are the falls? You know, is there a ledge? If there's a ledge.

01:19:43:07 - 01:19:45:15
Jason
Or some objective hazard.

01:19:45:18 - 01:19:45:24
Jason
On.

01:19:45:24 - 01:19:52:28
Jason
A grade that I'm at or above my grade, then I'm not doing that. I'm not picking that that day. So I'm a.

01:19:52:28 - 01:19:53:11
Jason
Little bit.

01:19:53:11 - 01:19:55:01
Jason
More calculated and selective.

01:19:55:01 - 01:19:57:06
Jason
With, what.

01:19:57:09 - 01:20:05:16
Jason
Routes I'm going to really push myself on. And then I'm also only pushing myself when I have a trusted layer.

01:20:06:09 - 01:20:26:15
Kyle
Yeah. Those are all really good realizations, man. And it's it's it's unfortunate that someone else had to pay the price for your personal development as a climber. But I think that it's. Yeah, I don't know. I've talked to a lot of people about this, and it's really hard to, you know, how do we teach these kind of lessons?

01:20:26:15 - 01:20:47:12
Kyle
How do we give people this kind of perspective that you're talking about here without having to go through a traumatic experience or a traumatic accident personally? Right. It's like how, how, how, how are you supposed to be able to convey the severity and of the consequences that we that we put ourselves in without. Yeah. Feeling it. And it's a really hard question to answer.

01:20:47:12 - 01:21:15:19
Kyle
And I have yet to have somebody actually, give me something that I could use to help someone potentially prevent themselves from from injuring themselves or learning the hard way, as it were. But, it so far, it seems like we're destined, to have to face it. Pretty in a raw sense, to actually, like, get the depth of understanding of of the reasons why we have to be safe and all these things that you're talking about, it's like, oh, yeah, yeah.

01:21:15:22 - 01:21:35:28
Kyle
You know, I run it out still too, but I only do it when I could arguably be free soloing. Right. It's like, you know, there you don't you don't have to take on more risk, unnecessarily. So it's cool that you've gotten all those, all those realizations because in the end, it's going to you're going to be climbing for longer.

01:21:35:28 - 01:21:46:16
Kyle
You're going to have a more safe career. You're probably, you know, you're going to live live longer to be able to go after these alpine objectives that you want to go after. Yeah. It's just they're really important lessons that,

01:21:48:15 - 01:21:50:08
Jason
Yeah. Yeah. You don't.

01:21:50:10 - 01:21:51:01
Jason
You can only get.

01:21:51:01 - 01:21:53:07
Jason
So much info from watching whispers on.

01:21:53:07 - 01:21:56:13
Jason
YouTube.

01:21:56:13 - 01:22:14:10
Kyle
like those are worse for, you know, and I've had I posted a like a poll recently about whether it was like, good or bad for the community and like, it was interesting. A lot of people said it was there was mixed reviews. It was like bad for the community because they're, you know, normalizing falls.

01:22:14:10 - 01:22:35:03
Kyle
But then there was also like it was bad for the community because it was over glorifying the fear of falls. And maybe someone who's a gym climber and sees would remediate trad for us. Like, I'm never tried climbing because that looks fucked, you know? And so it was like it was an interesting perspective. It was like, oh, well, like, you know, one side of the camp, it's normalized, but on the other side it's like, you know, we aren't all whipping like that all the time.

01:22:35:03 - 01:22:43:27
Kyle
And if anything, it's it's not something that we should be advertising like it's a crazy to watch. It's a clickbait. But when I see that stuff, I'm just like, it's not my climbing

01:22:45:26 - 01:22:48:29
Jason
Right. Yeah. No, I mean, I've I think it's it's.

01:22:48:29 - 01:22:49:11
Jason
All about.

01:22:49:11 - 01:22:51:14
Jason
What you,

01:22:51:16 - 01:22:56:05
Jason
Why you're there, why you're consuming that. What? Your what your outlook is on it. Like I used.

01:22:56:05 - 01:23:00:22
Jason
It, I've used it to.

01:23:00:24 - 01:23:02:05
Jason
Learn lessons from.

01:23:02:05 - 01:23:02:21
Jason
Other.

01:23:02:21 - 01:23:06:29
Jason
Unfortunate souls, you know, like, oh, their leg cop behind the.

01:23:06:29 - 01:23:13:09
Jason
Rope, how do I. Oh, I didn't even know you could do that. Now, now I'm starting to think so.

01:23:13:14 - 01:23:20:22
Jason
It's actually kind of touching on what you were saying of. Yeah, learning a lesson, without having to go through it. But I think.

01:23:20:22 - 01:23:24:02
Jason
Visuals is visuals is a super.

01:23:24:02 - 01:23:24:27
Jason
Powerful.

01:23:24:27 - 01:23:26:26
Jason
Medium.

01:23:26:28 - 01:23:33:24
Jason
To do that and and nothing more immediate than seeing it with your own eyes.

01:23:33:24 - 01:23:37:29
Jason
But yeah, I've, I've learned some stuff from watching the Weber vids.

01:23:38:01 - 01:23:43:22
Jason
Gotten some, some techniques, stuff of what not to do, if there was opportunity for that.

01:23:43:22 - 01:23:44:21
Jason
But then at a certain.

01:23:44:21 - 01:23:49:12
Jason
Point, you know, it's kind of a tipping scale. It's like, okay.

01:23:49:15 - 01:23:50:25
Jason
You can you can over.

01:23:50:25 - 01:23:51:20
Jason
Consume that for.

01:23:51:20 - 01:23:55:24
Jason
Sure.

01:23:55:26 - 01:24:00:23
Jason
Yeah. Yeah. Like I've, I've almost scared myself of, like I've seen it where.

01:24:00:25 - 01:24:03:13
Jason
The rope will somehow come out of undo.

01:24:03:13 - 01:24:04:09
Jason
Itself from a quick.

01:24:04:09 - 01:24:19:29
Jason
Draw. I don't know if you've ever seen or heard about that.

01:24:20:02 - 01:24:29:11
Jason
Yeah, yeah. Do you? Yeah, that's one of my things. So what I've been doing now on, like, critical pieces, whether I'm sport climbing, it's mostly.

01:24:29:11 - 01:24:30:23
Jason
When sport climbing, but,

01:24:30:26 - 01:24:33:27
Jason
Yeah, I'll put two carabiners, I'll put two.

01:24:33:27 - 01:24:37:28
Jason
Quick draws on the, on the bolt and do opposite,

01:24:38:00 - 01:24:40:27
Jason
And.

01:24:40:29 - 01:24:42:02
Jason
Yeah. I'm.

01:24:42:04 - 01:24:52:16
Jason
I'm like, I don't know what exactly causes it to happen. So I'm just doing it like, probably more than I should right now. So I don't know. Did they. What's the what's what's your research told you,

01:24:52:18 - 01:25:01:19
Jason
What what causes that to happen? Or is it just, some bad juju?

01:25:01:19 - 01:25:22:06
Kyle
episode where if a piece fails at the high point, the spring that happens from the recoil of the rope apparently causes the rope to do this crazy spiral action. And apparently that spiral action can cause the quick draws to undo themselves, or it increases the chances of

01:25:23:04 - 01:25:28:25
Jason
Cheese's.

01:25:28:27 - 01:25:39:16
Jason
Right.

01:25:39:19 - 01:25:43:02
Jason
Right. Yeah.

01:25:43:02 - 01:25:51:16
Kyle
like, oh, you make the wrong mistake and you face the gate, right, or whatever, like, and you fall like, to me, that's like the highest potential, for that to happen.

01:25:51:18 - 01:26:15:07
Kyle
And maybe I'm wrong. This is what I'm thinking about, but, yeah, I mean, I think doubling up quick draws is a great idea. Or using a locker, like having a single quick draw that has a wire gate for the bolt and, and a locking mechanism for the rope, that you can use at like any critical point where, you know, or like, man, I this is a ledge or I'm going to hit the deck if this bolt fails or if the quick draw and is

01:26:18:02 - 01:26:28:10
Jason
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. There's. There'll be times where, you know, you get, you get a spot, and it's not very clear.

01:26:28:10 - 01:26:30:24
Jason
If you're, you go, maybe you're going left up the bulge.

01:26:30:24 - 01:26:31:08
Jason
And then you're going.

01:26:31:08 - 01:26:36:08
Jason
To tour's back. Right? And you're like, I don't know where I'm going to fall. And if I fall. So, like, I don't know if the.

01:26:36:08 - 01:26:38:20
Jason
Gate is going to be in the right spot or not.

01:26:38:20 - 01:26:43:24
Jason
So yeah, I've, I've been finding myself doubling up on the bolts and,

01:26:43:26 - 01:26:44:14
Jason
It's granite.

01:26:44:15 - 01:26:50:17
Jason
My players are just scratching their heads quite a bit. But.

01:26:50:17 - 01:27:08:24
Kyle
think that it's it's all about mitigating your own risk and feeling as safe as you want to. And it's like, I don't know, I like putting the locker carabiner or doing the double carabiners at a bolt. It's like, akin to, like locking your back door at the end of the night. When you live in a safe neighborhood, it's like, are you going to get robbed?

01:27:08:24 - 01:27:28:10
Kyle
Probably not. But maybe if you think about it, and the one time you choose not to is that you get robbed. And so it's like it's it's one of those things where if you, if you, if it's in your mind's eye and you thought about it and you then chose to ignore that impulse and continue anyway, that is when you get fucked.

01:27:28:12 - 01:27:35:03
Kyle
It's like, you know, if you didn't think about it in the first place, probably is not going to happen. But when you think about it and ignore

01:27:43:09 - 01:27:47:28
Jason
Yeah. Whether it was rational or not, yeah.

01:27:48:01 - 01:27:52:09
Jason
Yeah, yeah. And for climbing, like you.

01:27:52:09 - 01:27:52:24
Jason
Touched on.

01:27:52:24 - 01:27:54:03
Jason
It earlier of.

01:27:54:05 - 01:27:55:17
Jason
You know, when, when you're.

01:27:55:17 - 01:27:56:04
Jason
Worried about.

01:27:56:04 - 01:28:01:00
Jason
Your bilayer or something along those lines, you know, it takes you out of the flow.

01:28:01:00 - 01:28:02:04
Jason
And it did.

01:28:02:06 - 01:28:10:07
Jason
It's a it's a, it's an energy leak. And you know that those are not good for trying to mitigate those. So whatever.

01:28:10:07 - 01:28:11:22
Jason
You can do to.

01:28:11:24 - 01:28:12:26
Jason
Really.

01:28:12:29 - 01:28:13:16
Jason
Ease your.

01:28:13:16 - 01:28:17:08
Jason
Mind so that you can just focus on the climb and less about the consequences.

01:28:17:08 - 01:28:17:27
Jason
Of it.

01:28:18:00 - 01:28:24:08
Jason
That should be something that we're, we're promoting and, yeah.

01:28:24:20 - 01:28:40:07
Kyle
And I talk about this a lot, but, like, in terms of risk mitigation and things, I think for me and again, this is, I think a contrary to belief to, to guides and probably more experienced people, but I would say like my connection to the Rock is my first line of defense. You know, I think that systems fail.

01:28:40:07 - 01:29:06:29
Kyle
Cams pull nuts, break bolts break. You know, quick draws undo themselves. There's a little element of randomness that you just can't really fully mitigate. You know, it's like and to deny that, I think is a bit ignorant. I think there is a just a level of, of randomness and climbing that we have to be okay with. But for me, and I'm saying specifically with the gear, not objective hazards, you know, like I've had so many stories of, you know, talent.

01:29:06:29 - 01:29:28:07
Kyle
Ash, I had him on the show. He had, this like, to him, textbook cam placements like sunk, you know, like the triggers were all the way in, and he had climbed the rail before he whipped, and the piece broke and exploded, and it was just like it broke all level of understanding of why a cam should fail, you know?

01:29:28:07 - 01:29:41:29
Kyle
And it's just like, to me, it reinforces the fact that you never really fucking know. And so like to me, the lesson I took take from that and I've spoken with lots of people, so many freak accidents is just like.

01:29:42:01 - 01:29:43:04
Kyle
If you.

01:29:43:06 - 01:30:03:14
Kyle
Obviously you have to put yourself in a position as a climber where you I'm speaking speaking specifically of trad here, you obviously have to put yourself in a position where you could fall, right? You can't, you can't. You can't climb without willing, willingly putting yourself in a position where you could fall. But especially with trad, you always have the option to put a piece in and

01:30:04:12 - 01:30:08:27
Jason
Not always. I mean, if there's a crack. If there's a crack.

01:30:08:27 - 01:30:21:06
Kyle
I guess I'm spoiled out here in the West Coast, man. Like where? Like I'm climbing splitters. Like good gear. I mean, do you find yourself in a position where you're just like, there's nothing. There's nothing to place,

01:30:22:07 - 01:30:25:13
Jason
Yeah, yeah. Although the elbow is a great.

01:30:25:13 - 01:30:28:19
Jason
Example of that. Yeah.

01:30:28:19 - 01:30:31:08
Jason
Or or.

01:30:31:10 - 01:30:32:15
Jason
Or.

01:30:32:17 - 01:30:36:19
Jason
Equally scary instances. It's just shit rock.

01:30:36:21 - 01:30:38:18
Jason
The only option is just fucking.

01:30:38:18 - 01:30:42:01
Jason
Hollow, hollow drums that.

01:30:42:03 - 01:30:44:21
Jason
You're like, okay, I could place here, but.

01:30:44:21 - 01:30:49:20
Jason
Man, this is right in direct fall line with my bilayer and my rope.

01:30:49:23 - 01:30:52:20
Jason
And okay, if I fall.

01:30:52:23 - 01:30:53:13
Jason
Am I going to kill.

01:30:53:13 - 01:31:00:10
Jason
My bilayer and then, you know, or cut my rope and then I'm done. You know, that's that's equally as scary. But I.

01:31:00:11 - 01:31:01:08
Jason
Know I've been even in the.

01:31:01:08 - 01:31:05:21
Jason
South Platte out here. Yeah. It's like a crack system.

01:31:05:21 - 01:31:07:07
Jason
And then you have to traverse some.

01:31:07:09 - 01:31:15:19
Jason
Crazy slab with nothing, and risk like a super pendulum slam and cheese grade and all that stuff. So.

01:31:15:21 - 01:31:17:02
Jason
Yeah, I mean, we.

01:31:17:05 - 01:31:24:12
Jason
And increase probably the only exception that I've been to, but I haven't done much climbing in the West Coast, so.

01:31:24:14 - 01:31:27:07
Jason
But you're, you're, you're, you're in Vegas. Like, I had some.

01:31:27:07 - 01:31:29:07
Jason
Crazy run outs and red rock and I've.

01:31:29:07 - 01:31:31:03
Jason
Only there.

01:31:31:03 - 01:31:45:23
Kyle
I'm never in a spot where it's hard and I'm like well past my physical limit of climbing and it's like also run out, you know, like a I guess maybe it's just because I choose specific objectives.

01:31:45:25 - 01:32:02:09
Kyle
I'm not really sure, but I don't ever want to be in that position. I don't ever want to find myself in above my head, in my physical ability, in above my head, above gear, in a position where, like, I could get really injured. Like, to me, those things are incongruent. I don't want to find myself in that situation.

01:32:02:12 - 01:32:09:29
Kyle
I mean, that's what I found myself in one by my injury, and I was above, like, shoddy gear on a climb that I was, like, unable to perform on.

01:32:10:06 - 01:32:12:00
Jason
So that was at your grade.

01:32:12:02 - 01:32:12:20
Jason
You were pushing.

01:32:12:20 - 01:32:13:29
Jason
Your grade that day.

01:32:13:29 - 01:32:24:08
Kyle
was yeah, I was push I was like, trying to get into elevens and I just jumped on this random 511 that had no, no ratings, no beater. Like it was just a single picture with no comments and like one and a half

01:32:24:17 - 01:32:34:20
Jason
Yeah. So what did you downgrade? The amount of stars after that?

01:32:50:09 - 01:32:54:14
Jason
Yeah. Not good for the the, Up and coming. 11 511.

01:32:54:14 - 01:32:57:06
Jason
Trad climber. What do you do?

01:32:57:09 - 01:33:01:05
Jason
Now, are you, like, researching the, So if you're.

01:33:01:08 - 01:33:01:25
Jason
Wanting to.

01:33:01:25 - 01:33:03:00
Jason
Do a climb your.

01:33:03:00 - 01:33:04:24
Jason
Grade, are you doing a little bit more.

01:33:04:24 - 01:33:08:26
Jason
Research coming through comments or mountain project a little more.

01:33:08:26 - 01:33:12:25
Jason
Thoroughly and.

01:33:12:25 - 01:33:33:24
Kyle
climb, I climb classics. And so their trade routes and usually they're pretty well protected, especially out here in Red Rock and even in Yosemite, what I'm finding is like so I'm climbing like 511 plus trad routes. Now. And what I'm finding is, at least from the ones that I've chosen to climb, the crux is are bolted.

01:33:33:26 - 01:33:56:12
Kyle
And like the the trad element to it is usually in the low 1110 range. And then you get to like the crux move and it's usually bolted or it's got like amazing gear, you know, it's like I've never found myself in a position where the crux of the route that I'm on is also bad gear and poorly protected, like, and I don't know what that is.

01:33:56:12 - 01:34:19:29
Kyle
It could be lock. Like I said, it could be the fact that I chase classics. Maybe it's the areas that I'm climbing Yosemite red rock. Like I'm not exactly sure because I think, I mean, Aldo has a reputation for sure. But I'm definitely. Yeah, I'm not climbing in, like, I also avoid routes like, there are routes in red rock, like, rock warrior and a sandstone samurai and, Fiddler on the roof.

01:34:19:29 - 01:34:38:27
Kyle
Like, these are notorious. Kind of like PG 13 hour climbs that I just haven't been on because I'm just not willing to really put myself in a situation where it's like, you know, there's been plenty of injuries on Fiddler on the roof. Like, I don't need to put myself in it willingly. Put myself in a situation where I'm going to be like kind of close to my limit.

01:34:38:29 - 01:34:47:11
Kyle
And knowing that I'm going to be like, well above gear or in a in a potentially injury prone position, like, I don't really find myself in

01:34:49:00 - 01:34:54:08
Jason
Yeah. I think that takes. That takes just learning and experience.

01:34:54:08 - 01:35:06:20
Jason
And, you know, maybe a a bad day or two, you know, a bad accident or two. I think that's kind of just how outdoor sports are.

01:35:06:21 - 01:35:12:01
Jason
You know, we you go into it with, you know, just eagerness.

01:35:12:01 - 01:35:15:27
Jason
And motivation and stoke and not a lot of experience, and you.

01:35:15:27 - 01:35:18:00
Jason
Don't know what you don't know and you don't really know.

01:35:18:00 - 01:35:19:05
Jason
What you're subjecting yourself.

01:35:19:05 - 01:35:22:09
Jason
To. You're just doing what your bodies are doing. And.

01:35:22:11 - 01:35:25:09
Jason
You do it enough and walk.

01:35:25:09 - 01:35:26:02
Jason
Away.

01:35:26:05 - 01:35:27:12
Jason
Relatively unscathed.

01:35:27:12 - 01:35:27:28
Jason
Enough to.

01:35:27:28 - 01:35:31:03
Jason
Survive. And you have a few close calls and.

01:35:31:06 - 01:35:36:01
Jason
You know, like, oh, shit, maybe I should do this differently. And then, you know.

01:35:36:03 - 01:35:48:13
Jason
Or you, you know, that's just part of the learning curve with, with sports that have where you're risking your own body. I think that's part of the game. And yeah, it's.

01:35:48:15 - 01:36:11:04
Jason
I think we just it's a risky sport like hands down you can do everything right and still fuck up on sport climbing and chart climbing. And, and in the gym. I mean, I saw a video of some guy who, like, forgot to clip into the auto belay and fell from the top. Like climbing is a risky sport.

01:36:11:04 - 01:36:12:22
Jason
And.

01:36:12:24 - 01:36:15:02
Jason
There's no there's no.

01:36:15:02 - 01:36:15:23
Jason
Getting around.

01:36:15:23 - 01:36:24:02
Jason
That. It's just how can you mitigate it? And then there's just risks that are just there, like the camera exploding. That's crazy.

01:36:24:04 - 01:36:25:08
Jason
But.

01:36:25:10 - 01:36:26:14
Jason
What size was it?

01:36:26:15 - 01:36:28:00
Jason
You know?

01:36:28:00 - 01:36:38:25
Kyle
out to him. I'm not exactly sure. He he he's got Instagram post about it to, Yeah, he I'm I'm sure he'd be more than willing to share his his anecdotal evidence about what

01:36:39:24 - 01:36:47:22
Jason
I don't know if I need that in my brain. I'm just like, oh, now. And now I'm trying to mitigate for cams just exploding like.

01:36:47:22 - 01:36:59:13
Kyle
to me, like, again, I might be boring some of my, the people who listen to me talk about this all the time. But again, I, I so firmly believe that our first level of protection is

01:37:00:16 - 01:37:03:00
Jason
Yeah, I agree with you.

01:37:03:00 - 01:37:13:15
Kyle
yeah. And if you are at a position where you're like, man, the chances of me coming off are like going up significantly and I know I could fall here.

01:37:13:17 - 01:37:28:05
Kyle
I'm immediately like triple checking my safety system that I've built. And I'm like looking down at the ballet or like, how much slack do I have? I'm looking at my gear. I'm like, I'm there's a chance I'm going to fall here. I'm going to put in two pieces like, rainbow wall in the crux. It was an 11 plus pitch.

01:37:28:07 - 01:37:44:11
Kyle
I like I it was I knew it was hard. I had been on it before and it was my first time leading it. I got up to the base of the crux and I put in three cams, like right next to each other, just like boom, boom, boom, clip them all to the rope and it's like overkill, sure.

01:37:44:13 - 01:38:09:27
Kyle
But it gave me the confidence to, like, try. I knew at my max limit I had no idea what I was going to pull it off or not. And sure enough, I whipped. I ended up being able to get a black totem above that nest. That cap caught both my falls, but it gave me the confidence to like, go for it and be in that space where it's like, man, I am way out on the edge and I could fall, but I don't find myself there very often.

01:38:09:29 - 01:38:20:25
Kyle
And I'm constantly playing that game of like, oh, it's 80%. Here goes a cam. Oh, it's like back down to 60%. My, my spacing gets a little bit more. You know, it's like I'm always playing that game.

01:38:21:02 - 01:38:22:15
Jason
Yeah. Yeah, I.

01:38:22:17 - 01:38:26:07
Jason
I don't remember who I heard it from, but it was. It was early.

01:38:26:07 - 01:38:31:15
Jason
On. When? Probably the first year of me going for trad.

01:38:31:17 - 01:38:35:01
Jason
And it was just like a simple, clean piece of advice.

01:38:35:01 - 01:38:37:20
Jason
It was like you.

01:38:37:20 - 01:38:38:27
Jason
Oh, you either.

01:38:38:27 - 01:38:43:00
Jason
Push the grade or the protection, but never both.

01:38:43:02 - 01:38:46:18
Jason
And that was just it was just it was clean and simple. I'm like, you're going to.

01:38:46:18 - 01:38:53:17
Jason
Keep me alive for a lot longer for telling me that. Thank you.

01:38:53:20 - 01:38:56:13
Jason
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, Yeah.

01:38:56:15 - 01:38:58:24
Jason
And, you know, early on.

01:38:58:24 - 01:39:03:09
Jason
I asked one of my friends who I was, I was following.

01:39:03:11 - 01:39:06:28
Jason
I was like, you know, what do you do if you, you know, you place a.

01:39:06:28 - 01:39:09:18
Jason
Subpar piece of gear and you climb.

01:39:09:18 - 01:39:10:29
Jason
On and then you.

01:39:11:02 - 01:39:16:05
Jason
Place another one, like, the Rock's not good or something like that, and, you know.

01:39:16:08 - 01:39:18:29
Jason
And then you just keep going or do you like.

01:39:18:29 - 01:39:19:10
Jason
You back.

01:39:19:10 - 01:39:21:17
Jason
Down or what? And, you.

01:39:21:17 - 01:39:23:02
Jason
Know, so I was like.

01:39:23:02 - 01:39:24:10
Jason
Already kind of thinking about that.

01:39:24:10 - 01:39:27:01
Jason
And, you know, she was saying, you know, after.

01:39:27:03 - 01:39:29:21
Jason
You know, after two pieces being marginal.

01:39:29:25 - 01:39:33:06
Jason
I'm not placing a third, I'm down climbing. And so.

01:39:33:06 - 01:39:35:23
Jason
Just knowing that down climbing is a.

01:39:35:23 - 01:39:38:12
Jason
Real option.

01:39:38:14 - 01:39:41:28
Jason
Of, you know, you can do all the research that you want.

01:39:41:28 - 01:39:42:26
Jason
On the route and.

01:39:42:26 - 01:39:44:17
Jason
Think that you're.

01:39:44:20 - 01:39:45:07
Jason
You're signing.

01:39:45:07 - 01:39:46:28
Jason
Up for, you know.

01:39:46:28 - 01:39:49:15
Jason
A route that has good gear at the crux.

01:39:49:15 - 01:39:56:00
Jason
And stuff. But sometimes maybe you got a little off route and you find yourself in a situation, you just you gotta always have your head.

01:39:56:00 - 01:40:04:11
Jason
On a swivel. And just knowing that, you know, down climbing is, is, a lifesaving skill. And that's always an option of like, okay.

01:40:04:14 - 01:40:10:07
Jason
You know, I'm above marginal gear and the next, you know, the next.

01:40:10:09 - 01:40:12:05
Jason
Spot for gears is kind of far.

01:40:12:05 - 01:40:13:28
Jason
Away. And that looks a little dicey.

01:40:13:28 - 01:40:22:02
Jason
You know, maybe I'm maybe I'm taking and leaving some gear, you know, just knowing that that's an option.

01:40:22:02 - 01:40:37:07
Kyle
down and, like, reassessing it and be like. Am I missing something? Usually when I'm in that spot because I'm missing a foothold or I'm missing a handhold, you know, and it's like. And you get so worked up and so, like, emotionally charged that you get tunnel vision and you, you're not calm anymore.

01:40:37:07 - 01:40:56:09
Kyle
And you miss those things that are going to unlock the puzzle for you. And it it's so much safer to like take a beat down climb, get back to your piece, maybe make it better, maybe add another one and then like come at the problem with a much more calm like, parasympathetic, you know, nervous system and, a tackle it safely.

01:40:56:09 - 01:41:12:00
Kyle
Yeah. I don't, I do not sign up for the like I don't find, I don't sign up for scared climbing. I hate scared climbing. I think it's a terrible thing to do. And then also. Yeah, if like, you're, you know, your gear is bad and you're close to the chains and you're just like, I'm just going to go for it.

01:41:12:00 - 01:41:13:01
Kyle
It's like, that is not

01:41:15:11 - 01:41:31:07
Jason
Yeah. Yeah I yeah. The longest whip that I ever took was, I was, I was, I was touching the, wrap rings. That was the anchor. But I was too pumped to, put a quick draw on it and clip that and.

01:41:31:09 - 01:41:32:17
Jason
It was one of those, like.

01:41:32:17 - 01:41:33:26
Jason
I hadn't even thought it.

01:41:33:26 - 01:41:34:23
Jason
Through, and.

01:41:34:23 - 01:41:38:09
Jason
I was just like, yeah, I was.

01:41:38:09 - 01:41:39:00
Jason
So pumped.

01:41:39:00 - 01:41:40:15
Jason
And I was trying everything different.

01:41:40:15 - 01:41:44:00
Jason
Body positioning. I put the fingers through the the rings like you're.

01:41:44:00 - 01:41:54:09
Jason
Not supposed to. And like, I tried everything and I'm like, dude, I'm so pumped. And it was a bolted route, but, I was just like.

01:41:54:11 - 01:42:01:05
Jason
Like, I'm, I just I'm going to fall. I can't, I can't hold on anymore. I can't make any moves. And I'm.

01:42:01:05 - 01:42:07:02
Jason
Just lucky there wasn't a ledge below because I had it wasn't even on my radar, and it was like a 30ft fall.

01:42:08:14 - 01:42:49:11
Jason
Yeah.

01:42:49:14 - 01:42:50:05
Jason
Yeah.

01:42:50:07 - 01:42:58:12
Jason
Yeah. And, you know, it's it's always a weird, dynamic of.

01:42:58:15 - 01:43:03:18
Jason
On one hand, your goal is to be more calm in stressful situations.

01:43:03:20 - 01:43:07:08
Jason
And so that's like, something I'm constantly striving for. But then there's.

01:43:07:08 - 01:43:09:23
Jason
Definitely risk of being too.

01:43:09:23 - 01:43:10:13
Jason
Calm.

01:43:10:13 - 01:43:12:20
Jason
Like where you've.

01:43:12:22 - 01:43:19:09
Jason
You know, free solos falling on, you know, five, seven terrain. That kind of stuff where.

01:43:19:11 - 01:43:21:29
Jason
You can never let your guard down, but you're always.

01:43:21:29 - 01:43:25:29
Jason
Trying to be calmer in a more stressful environment.

01:43:26:02 - 01:43:30:25
Jason
It's truly like you. It's just you. It's just always.

01:43:30:25 - 01:43:36:12
Jason
So mentally engaging. But that is quite the dichotomy.

01:43:36:14 - 01:43:37:09
Jason
Because there are two.

01:43:37:11 - 01:43:39:19
Jason
Like, totally different approaches, you know, but you have.

01:43:39:19 - 01:43:43:17
Jason
To do both of you have to do both of them. You just have to be you just have to be on.

01:43:43:17 - 01:43:44:09
Jason
On all these.

01:43:44:09 - 01:43:46:05
Jason
Levels.

01:43:46:08 - 01:44:03:15
Jason
And yeah, complacency is definitely an issue. Once you have done it enough, that becomes a big risk. That probably increases as you carry on in your career. Doing it.

01:44:03:15 - 01:44:23:11
Kyle
Smith and I. I've been workshopping this this kind of philosophical question of whether mastery is attainable. And I think, like, because you think about it in two ways, right? Like, is mastery something that you can achieve or is mastery like this constant process that we are chasing? You know, it's like this constant thing.

01:44:23:13 - 01:44:48:18
Kyle
And so what he said when I posed the question of like, how are professional athletes dying? Like, why are the best of us perishing for whatever reason? And and he basically came back and said, like for, for a lot of the people, it's when they feel like they've become, they've reached some sort of destination. They've they're, they feel like they've mastered some sort of modality.

01:44:48:20 - 01:45:15:07
Kyle
And it's then it's, it's at that moment when you're no longer in the process of development, in the process of no or believing that you can be better, that complacency comes in. And that's when you make mistakes and it's like you have to be honest with yourself. You have to be, mature enough and, humble enough to always know that you can, that you're you're in the pursuit of mastery wherever you are, and that you never get there.

01:45:15:11 - 01:45:23:15
Kyle
And, you know, even if you're on a five, 6 or 5, seven, like, you know, you can't let your guard down. You're like, you have to have

01:45:27:15 - 01:45:39:17
Jason
Yeah, yeah. It's like you've, you're you're you've exited the learning mindset. Yeah. And. Yeah, that's. Yeah. That's,

01:45:39:20 - 01:45:40:13
Jason
Yeah, it's it's hard.

01:45:40:13 - 01:45:42:26
Jason
To grapple with. I think any outdoors.

01:45:42:29 - 01:45:43:09
Jason
Person.

01:45:43:09 - 01:45:47:28
Jason
Who has risk, in their chosen hobby probably deals.

01:45:47:28 - 01:45:49:04
Jason
With that.

01:45:49:07 - 01:46:07:19
Jason
And if they don't, they should be.

01:46:07:21 - 01:46:22:11
Jason
And that's a that's a big question. I think that at least for me and my circle, like just the importance of the portant the importance of the role of the bilayer, just was never.

01:46:22:11 - 01:46:24:29
Jason
Emphasized that much.

01:46:25:01 - 01:46:26:13
Jason
Like, the best way.

01:46:26:13 - 01:46:27:24
Jason
Advice I ever got was from a.

01:46:27:24 - 01:46:28:09
Jason
Lead.

01:46:28:09 - 01:46:34:14
Jason
Climbing course at the local gym. And they touched on belaying and it was like.

01:46:34:20 - 01:46:35:01
Jason
Oh.

01:46:35:05 - 01:46:54:00
Jason
Cool. I learned so much from that. And yeah, I just, I think that belaying is like such an active role. And to open up the line of communication on the ground and on in the car ride.

01:46:54:02 - 01:47:04:07
Jason
Of, you know, hey, let's talk through the hazards together, like, let's see, you know, you know, what do you do differently if I'm above a.

01:47:04:07 - 01:47:08:27
Jason
Ledge halfway up, you know, having that conversation.

01:47:09:00 - 01:47:10:20
Jason
And just getting your bilayer.

01:47:10:20 - 01:47:12:22
Jason
Thinking about how to be.

01:47:12:24 - 01:47:16:24
Jason
How to be, you know, dialed in and.

01:47:16:26 - 01:47:25:19
Jason
And in a part of, a very active and important role. I think that just can't be stressed enough. And, yeah, just.

01:47:25:19 - 01:47:26:02
Jason
Opening up.

01:47:26:02 - 01:47:35:06
Jason
The line of communication between climber and bilayer because, I mean, ultimately, I think it's the climber has more.

01:47:35:08 - 01:47:37:03
Jason
You know, skin in the game.

01:47:37:06 - 01:48:01:10
Jason
So they should really advocate for themselves. Is something that I'm learning a lot for is like, I, I'm, I'm, I should advocate for myself, you know, if I have needs or, you know, want to identify hazards and like things a certain way, I need to communicate that first and foremost and make sure that they're they're doing that.

01:48:01:10 - 01:48:02:15
Jason
So I think.

01:48:02:15 - 01:48:15:27
Jason
Yeah, I think that's just something that, that wasn't really there for me. And I just, I, I've seen it a lot and some of my players and people around the crag and yeah, there's a lot of.

01:48:15:27 - 01:48:17:24
Jason
There's a lot of slack. People fall off, fall.

01:48:17:24 - 01:48:20:20
Jason
Farther than you would assume, you know, and.

01:48:20:20 - 01:48:21:21
Jason
Especially one thing I'm.

01:48:21:21 - 01:48:33:01
Jason
Really tuning into now is, the weight difference between the climber and Blair. I didn't even think about that. Like I was aware of it. But I'm really, like, factoring that in with, like.

01:48:33:03 - 01:48:35:10
Jason
Yeah, you know, I'm going to be taking a longer.

01:48:35:10 - 01:48:43:05
Jason
Fall with, you know, 120 pound partner. And.

01:48:43:08 - 01:48:47:23
Jason
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, ground anchors, if you, if you're able to.

01:48:47:23 - 01:48:49:03
Jason
On on single pitching and stuff.

01:48:49:03 - 01:48:51:00
Jason
Like that. But,

01:48:51:02 - 01:48:52:29
Jason
Yeah, just there's a lot to factor into it.

01:48:52:29 - 01:48:55:14
Jason
And the players just such an important role.

01:48:55:17 - 01:48:56:02
Jason
They really.

01:48:56:02 - 01:49:00:04
Jason
Have the life of the climber in their hands. So.

01:49:00:06 - 01:49:00:26
Jason
Yeah.

01:49:04:12 - 01:49:08:00
Jason
No, no. Should I?

01:49:08:02 - 01:49:11:23
Jason
Okay.

01:49:11:26 - 01:49:14:14
Jason
Oh, I think I have it downloaded. I haven't.

01:49:14:17 - 01:49:17:25
Jason
Haven't had a road trip to listen to it yet.

01:49:17:25 - 01:49:40:08
Kyle
Pretty wild to, like, listen to his story with the circumstances of how he, how he passed. But, yeah, I interviewed him, I think a month or two before he passed. So really wild to hear his voice and like to hear his story, but, yeah, he, speaks all about bullying and the nuances and how important it is and exactly all the things you're saying.

01:49:40:08 - 01:50:02:08
Kyle
So, yeah, if you're listening and you're interested in this whole topic of playing, definitely check it out. But, yeah. Jason, I appreciate you. I appreciate your, your honesty and your humility to come and just kind of share the story for the benefit of the community and, it's been awesome to chat with you and to revisit these, these super important topics that, I think can go overlooked pretty easily.

01:50:02:26 - 01:50:05:01
Jason
Yeah. Man. Kyle, it's been a pleasure.

01:50:06:07 - 01:50:10:27
Kyle
Oh, yeah. Where can people follow your story? If people are interested in kind of seeing what you're getting up to, what you're

01:50:12:06 - 01:50:13:24
Jason
All for all the socials, man.

01:50:13:24 - 01:50:14:23
Jason
Just, out.

01:50:14:23 - 01:50:22:07
Jason
Here, probably, I've been doing a lot of South Platte climbing, so, Yeah, I'm out on the Front Range and in Colorado.

01:50:22:10 - 01:50:24:24
Jason
So. Yeah, just got to find me at the crag.

01:50:24:26 - 01:50:29:06
Jason
Or the gym. Yeah.

01:50:29:08 - 01:50:29:29
Jason
All right.