108 | The Developer Of The Nooks w/ Brendan Baars & DJ Viernes

Way out in the Canadian wilderness — six hours from the nearest city, little to no cell reception, surrounded by mossy forests and granite — lies a world-class bouldering destination. Secluded, quiet, and breathtakingly beautiful, The Nooks has quickly become one of the most talked-about new climbing areas in North America. With incredible rock quality and a massive spread of problems from V0 to V13, it’s the kind of place that feels unreal the first time you see it.

The Nooks was first discovered in 2018 by Michigan climber Brendan Baars. Since then, he has spent nearly every climbable weekend out there — cleaning hundreds of boulders, building trails, collaborating with the local community, and documenting the entire process alongside his close friend DJ Viernes. Brendan’s vision and commitment have transformed a patch of remote forest into a full-blown destination area visited by hundreds of climbers a year — something that almost never happens on this scale. Today, I’m sitting down with both Brendan and DJ to talk about how it all came to be.

In our conversation, we dive into the history of The Nooks, why Brendan fell in love with bouldering, and what it actually takes to develop an area of this size. We break down his first ascent of a new V13 called Deadliness, and get a deeper understanding of how The Nooks has shaped both Brendan's and DJ’s lives over the last seven years.

We also talk at length about DJ’s new feature-length film The Developer, which documents the area and the process behind building it from the ground up. It’s beautifully shot, full of heart, and we use it as a reference point throughout this conversation.

If you’re interested in watching The Developer, DJ has created an exclusive 20% discount for the first 50 listeners to check out the film, making it just $4 to rent or $16 to purchase. Click the link in the show notes and use code “TCM20” at checkout. I don’t expect those codes to last long.

Did you know this podcast is also on YouTube? I spend an enormous amount of time and money making sure the video and audio quality are as professional as possible — and this time, DJ even set up a full studio on his end so we could capture his side of the conversation at the highest quality. So if you want to watch this episode, the trailer, or any of our video podcasts, head over to YouTube and hit subscribe — even if you’re not normally a video-podcast person. We’re getting close to our goal of 1,000 subscribers, and every sub helps a ton.

Watch The Climbing Majority on Youtube

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Resources

Watch "The Developer" on Vimeo - Use Code "TCM20" for 20% OFF (First 50 Listeners)

The Nooks is on KAYA

Brendan's IG

DJ's IG

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 4:06 Background
• 17:03 For The Love of Bouldering
• 24:55 The Process of Route Development
• 32:01 First Ascent of "Deadliness" V13
• 39:42 Crag Development
• 53:46 Specific Questions For Brendan
• 1:03:56 Specific Questions For DJ
• 1:20:45 Closing Reflections

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:24
Kyle
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.

00:00:09:26 - 00:00:14:17
Kyle
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.

00:00:16:13 - 00:00:45:01
Kyle
Way out in the Canadian wilderness. Six hours from the nearest city. Little to no cell reception. Surrounded by mossy forests and granite lies a world class bouldering destination. Secluded, quiet and breathtakingly beautiful. The nooks has quickly become one of the most talked about new climbing areas in North America, with incredible rock quality and a massive spread of problems from V0 to V 13.

00:00:45:03 - 00:01:19:11
Kyle
It's the kind of place that feels unreal the first time you see it. The nooks was first discovered in 2018 by Michigan climber Brendan Bars. Since then, he has spent nearly every climbable weekend out there cleaning hundreds of boulders, building trails, collaborating with the local community, and documenting the entire process alongside his close friend, DJ Varonis. Brendan's vision and commitment have transformed a patch of remote forest into a full blown climbing destination, visited by hundreds of climbers a year, something that just really never happens at the scale.

00:01:19:13 - 00:01:43:14
Kyle
Today, I'm sitting down with both Brendan and DJ to talk about how it all came to be. In our conversation, we dive into the history of the nooks, why Brendan fell in love with bouldering, and what it actually takes to develop an area of this size. We break down his first ascent of the new V 13, called deadliness, and get a deeper understanding of how The nooks has shaped both Brendan's and DJ's lives over the last seven years.

00:01:43:17 - 00:02:00:21
Kyle
We also talk at length about DJ's new feature length film called The Developer, which documents the area and the process behind building it from the ground up. It's beautifully shot, full of heart and we use it as a reference point throughout this conversation. So before we dive in, I'm going to play the trailer for you now.

00:02:00:21 - 00:02:21:06
Trailer
You're trying to go find rock that has never been climbed before. And even if you do find it, it's not 100% certain that you will be able to climb it.

00:02:21:09 - 00:02:30:04

You know, I think a lot of climbers see development as just root developing. But even just with root development, there's a lot more that goes into that.

00:02:30:06 - 00:02:40:05

He definitely became obsessed with going to the nooks and developing the nooks and finding the projects that were inspiring to him.

00:02:40:08 - 00:02:48:15

Climbing is a sport, but it also can be a lot more for these rural areas. It can be a real sort of community hub and center for folks.

00:02:48:18 - 00:02:57:13

The nooks has given me the desire to go find more and do more with it.

00:02:57:13 - 00:03:09:16
Kyle
If you're interested in watching the developer DJ has created an exclusive 20% discount for the first 50 listeners to check out the film, making it just $4 to rent or $16 to purchase.

00:03:09:19 - 00:03:31:15
Kyle
Click the link in the show notes and use code M20 at checkout. I don't expect these codes to last very long. Did you know that this podcast is also on YouTube? I spend an enormous amount of time and money making sure the video and audio quality are as professional as possible, and this time DJ even set up a full studio on his end so we could capture his side of the conversation at the highest quality possible.

00:03:31:20 - 00:03:53:18
Kyle
So if you want to watch the episode, the trailer, or any other of our video podcasts, head on over to YouTube and hit the subscribe button. Even if you're not normally a video podcast person, we're getting closer to our goal of 1000 subscribers and every person helps. So without further ado, let's get into my conversation with Brandon Bars and DJ Vernice.

00:04:06:16 - 00:04:29:03
Brendan
I am the developer of the nux, or the primary developer of a new climbing area in Northern Ontario. Soo Sainte Marie, two hours east of Soo Sainte Marie, Michigan. And, you know, we found this area, I mean, some friends and started developing. And it was really fun for a while, and we kept finding more and more and it just expanded.

00:04:29:03 - 00:04:53:25
Brendan
And the rock was so good. The, it just became a rock climbing area. The more we went up and developed this place and put in the work for for trails and then, guidebook came along and then more people started coming up because of JW started to shoot film about it, and the story just unfolded into this place that now is like this established climbing area.

00:04:53:29 - 00:05:01:11
Brendan
And that that really doesn't happen very often. I don't think.

00:05:01:13 - 00:05:05:23
Brendan
Yes.

00:05:07:16 - 00:05:29:03
Brendan
Yes and no. I mean, a lot has changed since then. Like back then we were like exploring and just searching through this forest and satellite maps and just guessing at where the rock could be. And now it's completely different. No longer are we bushwhacking to the main area. It's just like a fully established climbing area. The trails are great.

00:05:29:03 - 00:05:40:29
Brendan
The boulders are established. They're continuing to be, like, not cleaned, but stay clean and stay chalked up because of visiting climbers. So the experience is way different than it used to be.

00:05:41:01 - 00:05:44:16
Kyle
Cool. DJ have you been like part of this process from the beginning?

00:05:45:03 - 00:06:05:26
DJ
Not from the beginning, but from year like three, 2 or 3. Yeah. So yeah, I agree the difference is drastic. Like it used to. The approach is used to suck because it was hard. Like everything would regrow every year and we have to do a bunch of trail maintenance every spring when we went, and yeah, now it's like it's exponentially more accessible.

00:06:06:05 - 00:06:26:29
Kyle
now, you know, we are going to circle back or at the end and kind of talk about this film that you guys shot. But before in the film itself, it seemed like there was this error of confusion that people had about your obsession with the nooks. Including your family, your parents and your wife, Brendan.

00:06:27:02 - 00:06:37:22
Kyle
DJ, did you share that kind of, wonder of like, what the hell Brendan's doing? Until you actually kind of got on board. Or were you, were you locked in and you saw the vision from the beginning?

00:06:38:04 - 00:06:59:01
DJ
I think I was locked in to the place at the beginning. Not necessarily the climbing, because, like, when I first went up, there wasn't as many roots, so, like, like, I didn't see the potential the way Brendan did, but, like, I fell in love with just the place because, like, how remote it is, how out there it is, like there's no cell service.

00:06:59:01 - 00:07:15:22
DJ
Like everything slows down. Like, I was really drawn into that. Like, I love camping and I love being outside. So for for like him and him wanting to keep going up there and develop stuff like for me, it was just a dope excuse to go camping in the middle of the wilderness. And then I happened to bring my camera.

00:07:15:24 - 00:07:34:13
DJ
And then the more and more I went and then, like, saw the possibilities of what it could be as a climbing area. Then, like, that's where we could start to see, oh, here's a story here. But yeah, like and until you go see it, it's hard to trust two random people from fucking Michigan to be like, yeah, there's a dope climbing area I like, go check it out.

00:07:34:13 - 00:07:42:07
DJ
Trust us, it is that good. But like, if you can't really know until you go up there and actually experience it for yourself.

00:07:42:07 - 00:08:00:08
Kyle
the, the main, I guess the vein in the, in the film was that, you know, non climber. It's maybe it's hard to even find it, you know, a climber that understands the justification for driving for six hours to an undeveloped area, but trying to convince someone who's not a climber in the first place that it's a good idea is probably also even even harder or more farfetched.

00:08:00:10 - 00:08:12:27
Kyle
How? How like how much of that was like kind of played into a little bit for the film and kind of like a humor base or how much was that actually true in terms of their lack of understanding of your vision? Brennan. For the for the actual project that you were doing?

00:08:13:13 - 00:08:44:19
Brendan
I'm. I would, I'm guessing because, you know, I don't know what he told. You know, them beforehand, but I'm sure, like, there's nothing fake in the film, but, I it's pretty true that people have been kind of baffled by this, like, I, I used to be a big climber that would travel down to Chattanooga, even further than the Knox, you know, that's like ten, 12 hours away and, and the cell phone in general and, and climb stuff and be a weekend warrior.

00:08:44:19 - 00:09:02:27
Brendan
And that was great. And then I just shifted completely once, once this happened. And like, I just I just became addicted to looking and finding the rocks in those woods. And, you know, I at first I questioned myself what I was doing. I was I was having fun doing it, and I was finding really cool boulder problems.

00:09:02:27 - 00:09:22:01
Brendan
But the more like I had to, like, kind of convince myself that it was as good as anywhere I had been. Or like, it's not. I had to convince myself, but I would do something and be like, that was incredible. And then I would turn around and the boulder right behind me, and I would do the same thing and be like, that was also incredible.

00:09:22:01 - 00:09:48:08
Brendan
So like, I don't I guess this I was just I just needed to hear it from others to like, really confirm that, yes, this is as good. And so people looked at that as like, what are what are you doing up there? And why did you give up everything that you were chasing, you know, grade chasing and star chasing and, and all that stuff for for mostly not climbing.

00:09:48:08 - 00:10:07:28
Brendan
You know, I'm exploring. I'm, building landings. I'm cleaning boulders, building trails, like, all that stuff takes so much time. I'm not training as much because I'm searching for boulders on my. My computer, like, so much goes into it that nobody has any idea.

00:10:08:09 - 00:10:28:10
Kyle
Yeah. I think that one of a big word that's always, led my life is is vision. It's like a password for a lot of my stuff, but, I think it's so important to have a vision. You have to actually see the unseen to create something, right? And it's. That's what a creator is. It's. It's someone who has a vision for something that doesn't exist.

00:10:28:12 - 00:10:46:09
Kyle
And it's so cool that that's exactly like what you did. You had a vision for a place that didn't exist. You had a vision for these boulders that hadn't been cleaned. Hadn't, you know, the trails that didn't exist. It seems like you had this picture in your mind before it even, came to reality. And here we are seven years later where it's all come to fruition.

00:10:46:09 - 00:10:57:27
Kyle
Like, do you ever do you ever stand, like in the developed area, like with the trails and the cleaned boulders and everything looks pretty and you're just like, wow, you know, like this is this is real.

00:10:57:27 - 00:10:58:15
Kyle
Now

00:10:59:00 - 00:11:25:08
Brendan
Every time. That. Pretty much every time. It's just especially like I no longer go there and don't expect to see people like, it's it's expected that 1 to 5, 20 people are going to be there, and to watch other people enjoy like the history that I know about the place, is just like, really gratifying.

00:11:25:08 - 00:11:33:27
Kyle
the impact of the area and the people and the growth? Like what? What has been your perspective? And your, like, firsthand account of the growth of the area.

00:11:34:16 - 00:12:00:26
DJ
I think, like, even touching back on what we were just talking about, I think one of the reasons that everybody was so skeptical of what Brandon was doing is because, like, he could only documents so much because most of the time that he was up there, he was developing and working and trying to look for stuff. So when I started coming up, I could film the quality of what was up there, and then we started to share that online, and then people are kind of like, oh, we, we kind of get it right now because it used to be like, like, what the fuck are you doing, man?

00:12:00:26 - 00:12:20:18
DJ
There's so much time that you're devoting. Like you're going up there constantly. And so I think the, the big change that I've seen is definitely like one the sheer amount of people that are going up there, like Brennan said, but also like people are reacting the same way that we did. Like they're starting to bring up other people now.

00:12:20:18 - 00:12:26:05
DJ
They're going back and telling people on like Toronto and Ottawa, and Wisconsin.

00:12:26:05 - 00:12:26:26
Brendan
Yeah. I mean, any.

00:12:26:27 - 00:12:27:15
DJ
River like.

00:12:27:15 - 00:12:28:11
Brendan
Minnesota.

00:12:28:11 - 00:12:56:10
DJ
Yeah. They tell their friends like, yeah, like it is actually worth it. The quality of the stuff is there is dope. So like now we've had some people that they've come back and they've brought some new people with them. And then like that just keeps going and spreading on and on and on, which is pretty cool to see, because it used to be like the only people that would go up, there were people that we like finally convinced to come, and they were like either one off or a handful of times, or they would start to continue to come, but actually people bringing more new people.

00:12:56:12 - 00:13:00:15
DJ
And it's been really cool to see.

00:13:00:15 - 00:13:19:06
Kyle
talk about is, is like the marketing of an area. So we all we all know these classic areas like out west, we've got Red Rock Canyon, we got taquito, we have Joshua Tree. Obviously these are national parks. But even smaller areas, I don't know, like it's hard for me to come up with an example, but like the process of bringing an area to a classic status.

00:13:19:06 - 00:13:38:25
Kyle
Right. Is it just the is it just the roots? Is it just the nature of the rock? Is it just the nature of the climbing, or is it also this like marketing element where you have to get the word out, you have to like market and invest it into getting the word out. Like, how have you guys experienced that kind of growth?

00:13:38:27 - 00:13:43:01
Kyle
And do you see this kind of becoming a classic area?

00:13:46:11 - 00:14:05:15
Brendan
Well, it's definitely not a classic area. I mean, you're not going to go up there and see 20 people on the regular, right? It's, it's. Yeah, yeah. We don't we don't I mean, we don't know or guessing as to what this place will and can turn into. You know, right now we're at just under 400 boulder problems with hundreds and hundreds more to go.

00:14:05:17 - 00:14:26:29
Brendan
You know, all road side right there. The problem is there's no local climbers. So it's it's amazing that we've already even gotten people up there as is, because there's, like two hours away is where the closest rock climbers live. And beyond that, most of the rock climbers are six plus hours away. So will it turn into a destination one day?

00:14:27:01 - 00:14:55:20
Brendan
Maybe. Definitely. Will it ever be, you know, Rock town or Little Rock city or Squamish? Squamish? You know? No, no, but, in terms of a very well known area throughout the country, throughout North North America. Yeah, it's already started to spread, actually, throughout the country. I hear stories, you know, every so often, the people recognizing people that are from Michigan.

00:14:55:20 - 00:15:04:09
Brendan
Oh, do you know the nooks? I've heard of the nooks. And so like, it's it's it's already out there. It's it's weird.

00:15:04:11 - 00:15:27:05
DJ
And then as far as the marketing goes, I think, what makes the nooks unique and different? Like, again, one of the reasons that I fell in love with it initially is it reminded me a lot of when I first started climbing, like when you like I, when I started going down to the red and like the 90s and like, just like it was a lot more like roar and ruckus and kind of like, like rustic.

00:15:27:05 - 00:15:58:16
DJ
And, you know, it wasn't super developed. There wasn't all these amenities and stuff there. And I think it's like we've kind of marketed the nooks as that, like a return to that, like it's just climbing and that's it. Like you have wilderness, you're camping, but you have to do all of your own share, like you're you're out there and like you are, you are going there specifically to climb, not to do anything else, like check out like another city or go to some, like restaurants or anything, like you're only there to climb and that's that's kind of what's like really, really cool about it.

00:15:58:18 - 00:16:15:19
DJ
And from the marketing aspect, it's like there's so much content out there about climbing the like what stands out. And I think that's what makes the nooks pretty unique. And the footage capturing it unique is that it's so remote and it's so different than a lot of areas.

00:16:15:19 - 00:16:25:10
Kyle
you guys have definitely done a lot of work marketing the area with this film and the content. And you guys have made know Brandon you've made a guidebook at this point. Correct. I think that was already out when we spoke last like

00:16:26:11 - 00:16:35:08
Brendan
Yeah, that's true. And it's a I've written a small guide book, had like 160, 150 folder problems in it. It's super out of date at this point.

00:16:35:08 - 00:16:37:27
Kyle
Yeah. You were saying there's 400 now. 400 boulders

00:16:38:04 - 00:16:44:18
Brendan
Coming up on 400. Yep yep.

00:16:44:21 - 00:16:50:03
DJ
Yeah yeah.

00:16:50:05 - 00:17:03:15
Brendan
Oh only like I haven't done it in a while so the percentage is probably gone up. It was like 50. It's probably more like 60, 70% I don't know at this point.

00:17:03:15 - 00:17:12:27
Kyle
so I am not a boulderer. I'm a trad climber. I don't think I've ever boulder before in my life. And I'd say I don't.

00:17:13:00 - 00:17:30:00
Kyle
I would say that a decent chunk of my audience is kind of also in that same boat. So I want you guys to unpack the sport of bouldering for us. I want you guys to talk to me about, like, why you guys love it. What are the key elements of of the sport that really drive you?

00:17:30:03 - 00:17:33:12
Kyle
And. Yeah. What what, like what about the sport? Do you guys love.

00:17:34:24 - 00:17:40:28
Brendan
Well, I think DJ would claim he's not. He's not a boulder either. Is that true? Is that not.

00:17:40:28 - 00:18:05:27
DJ
True? I'm like 6040. Kind of like or almost 5050. It kind of depends on the season. Like I've been bouldering and all lately. But when I first got into climbing, it was strictly rope. And then like sport, just solid sport crushing out sport like started bouldering to get to some of the power aspects of sport climbing. Like just to get some more of that power and then started bouldering outside.

00:18:05:27 - 00:18:22:17
DJ
And so like I would go through phases of like really, really loving bouldering and then like just really sick of hitting the fucking ground. So like wanting a soft land on a row and then like really, really loving a row for a while and then being like, oh, I kind of missed bouldering. So like, I'd, I would swing back and forth.

00:18:22:17 - 00:18:38:08
DJ
But yeah, I think like right now I'm kind of going through a bro phase again now that I'm down at the film final and it's like, I'm excited to actually, like, start climbing again. In the best way to ease back into it is just crush out a shit ton of sport. So like, that's when I'm in a road mode right now.

00:18:38:10 - 00:18:42:05
DJ
But yeah, swings back and forth and you are strictly bouldering.

00:18:42:08 - 00:19:12:14
Brendan
Yeah. So I, I think I can answer this question better than these guys that, what is it about bouldering that I love? I think it's the first thing that comes to mind is the, the you get to test the limits of pure strength and, and power primarily. Right. So the endurance. I don't really like that. It's I want to see how hard of a move I can do in such a short time frame.

00:19:12:16 - 00:19:24:02
Brendan
And on top of that, I'm just kind of scared of ropes, so I would rather. I'd rather climb a scary high bar then, than than sport. Climb on something hard, get pumped and fall.

00:19:24:02 - 00:19:25:27
Kyle
interesting.

00:19:25:29 - 00:19:26:19
DJ
Right.

00:19:26:22 - 00:19:46:14
Brendan
Yeah. I don't, I don't know, I like the game of bouldering. It's kind of it's kind of like maybe more of a game than trad and sport. Maybe not. I don't know, people could could argue that different for sure. But, I was just drawn to it immediately. F sport climb for sure. But, bouldering is stuck.

00:19:46:14 - 00:20:02:10
Kyle
about the fact that it's just climbing? You don't have to worry about quick draws or gear or rope or how to clip the rope or, mistakes you can make to injure yourself. It's like I just climb as hard as fuck, and then I. If I fail, I jump back on the ground. Is there like, a

00:20:03:22 - 00:20:19:08
Brendan
Yeah. It's it is a pure the pure aspect of bouldering really comes to mind. No extra nothing. You know, unless you get into knee pads and all that good jazz. But, that's definitely, definitely an element of it.

00:20:19:13 - 00:20:39:20
Kyle
And then you mentioned like you, you're okay. You don't like the risk of trusting a rope but you're willing to high ball. I watched there was a social media video I watched of you, doing one of the high balls, and it was like you were fucking high up there, dude. It looked like a nasty fall. Like, kind of like tomahawk down the slab and then land in the rocks.

00:20:39:23 - 00:20:53:11
Kyle
How do you handle that kind of risk? Because, I mean, high balling, you can essentially call it free soloing, I would say with, like, slightly less consequences than death. How do you process risk and how do you process that solo mentality when you're bouldering?

00:20:53:29 - 00:21:19:00
Brendan
Yeah. So I do try to keep it as safe as I can. And I do not love high balling. It's more that the rocks are there, and they're inspiring, and and I want to climb them, and they just happen to be high. But I do take as many precautions as I can. I don't care about the, the purists who say, you know, ground up or whatever.

00:21:19:00 - 00:21:56:09
Brendan
I want to keep it safe. Like I have a day job. I, you know, use my hands and I'm a laborer for, for a living. So I, I want to be as secure as I can be. So I'll rope up, and self belay myself on, on all of these climbs. Not all of them. You know, I have gone ground up on balls and blah, blah blah, but for the most part, if it's dangerous up there, if there's a move that feels sketchy, I am 100% roping up for as many times as it takes, even like 2030 times through a crux move, over and over until I feel comfortable

00:21:56:09 - 00:22:05:01
Kyle
you're, you're not only roping up to clean and establish the route itself, but you're roping up to go through the moves before you actually do it without a

00:22:05:24 - 00:22:35:19
Brendan
Yeah, I will, yeah. Depending on the style, depending on how sketchy it is, where the crux is. Yeah, for the majority of boulders. No, I'm trying ground up, but for the for the select few that are, you know, a very sketchy move that's, you know, above the five is 20ft plus in the air. You know, that's that's that's sketchy.

00:22:35:22 - 00:22:39:28
Brendan
I don't like that.

00:22:40:01 - 00:22:51:07
Brendan
Yeah. I mean, I don't know any personally, and I've never gotten flack for saying I. I've used a row, but I think, like John Sherman, the firm was against like the OG.

00:22:51:07 - 00:22:51:21
DJ
Yeah.

00:22:51:22 - 00:22:58:19
Brendan
Bombing crater of bouldering. The B grid.

00:22:58:22 - 00:23:00:23
Brendan
I could be wrong about that I have no.

00:23:00:26 - 00:23:02:27
DJ
Oh yeah. Yeah, that's where it originates from.

00:23:03:00 - 00:23:05:00
Brendan
Well, no, I know that. But his ethics.

00:23:05:00 - 00:23:07:17
DJ
On. Oh, no, he's strictly ground up like.

00:23:07:19 - 00:23:08:04
Brendan
Yeah, there.

00:23:08:04 - 00:23:11:18
DJ
Isn't even use pads like he would walk around with like a little mat.

00:23:11:21 - 00:23:14:02
DJ
Like it's is fucked up.

00:23:14:04 - 00:23:15:28
DJ
He's had some gnarly falls. Yeah.

00:23:15:29 - 00:23:24:20
Brendan
Like I think Jason Kelly used to as well. He used to be a ground up ethic guy. But I don't know if that's true anymore.

00:23:24:22 - 00:23:26:15
DJ
Yeah, yeah.

00:23:26:18 - 00:23:30:08
Brendan
Yeah, I'm good.

00:23:30:10 - 00:23:31:20
DJ
I'm.

00:23:31:20 - 00:23:49:24
Kyle
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00:24:52:19 - 00:25:14:27
Kyle
Okay, so, getting into the meat of the conversation here. So, you know, the film's called the developer, and I really, I don't I think this is how I pulled this, but I love the fact that you broke down development into a bunch of different categories. We've got root development, crag development, land development, community development and economic development.

00:25:14:29 - 00:25:30:24
Kyle
And I love that breakdown. And I want to kind of dive into each kind of category as a as it relates to the nooks. So, you know, we're already kind of on this topic about root development ground up versus top down. But let's talk the I want to expand. I want to go tight, and then I want to expand to the bigger picture.

00:25:30:26 - 00:25:37:29
Kyle
So we'll start with the roots themselves. So talk to me about like, your process for developing roots in the nooks.

00:25:38:28 - 00:26:14:26
Brendan
My process. Well, it changes, boulder to Boulder, you know, and whether those boulders are currently in, like, the main one of the main climbing areas or whether whether that boulder's a 20 minute hike in the woods, whether I would bring, an extendable ladder or, my rope. And then from there, I'm carrying either one of those backpack full of, wire brushes, scrapers and a various amounts of other tools with me chalk, harness and all that good jazz.

00:26:14:26 - 00:26:33:25
Brendan
So, like a full load out there just to clean the boulder. So you get to a boulder, you inspect, you find something behind a line that you want to climb, and you tie off on a tree or on a rock. I've tied off on big other boulders that are, you know, like car sized that I can repel off of.

00:26:33:27 - 00:26:55:01
Brendan
And then you got to one of the big things that's, especially with the big massive high balls is you got to figure out how to get on top of boulders, too. And in the film, it shows it actually very well where I attempted to throw a rock tied to a rope over top of a boulder, and it failed miserably.

00:26:55:04 - 00:27:18:08
Brendan
It's worked before, but that one, the boulder is ginormous and there is no way. So I and there was no easy way up the boulder, so I had to free solo a problem that became like a V0, v1 or something, and just covered in moss like, and Lehner. I mean, it was disgusting. And it was, it was really difficult to climb.

00:27:18:08 - 00:27:38:08
Brendan
And I was like pretty sketched out at times. But then, yeah, you got to get to the top. You got to throw the rope over to the other side. Hopefully you remember to tie off on the tree so you can rappel off, and then on your way down, you clean the boulder with wire brushes and whatnot, and if it's dry underneath, you can actually chalk it at the same time.

00:27:38:08 - 00:28:00:05
Brendan
So you get off all the stuff from the top down so stuff doesn't fall onto our already chocked holds at the bottom. And then once you're down, either you got to go back through because the boulder was wet in places, from the stuff that you took off and you had to reach it, or it's already chalked from the one pass that you did, and then you're good to go.

00:28:00:05 - 00:28:07:19
Brendan
But then usually you don't have pads there at the same time, just all depending. And then you got to go back to the car and grab pads and go back out there.

00:28:07:27 - 00:28:10:10
Kyle
How many roots do you feel like you can develop in a day? Obviously,

00:28:10:10 - 00:28:11:16
DJ
Oh. That's good.

00:28:11:16 - 00:28:52:01
Brendan
That's a impossible question to answer, though. It's a great question, but it's it's really hard, so. It depends. It depends on the type of boulder and the height and stuff and the logistics to to actually get cleaning on it. Some, some boulder problems, especially the really severely overhanging ones. They're, they're more or less ready to go, like and and moss and dirt don't really like to grow on that type of stuff, so but then, you know, the, the the overhanging but less overhanging and then to vertical the slab, pretty much the further you go towards slab, though, the worse it gets in terms of, the lichen and dirt and

00:28:52:01 - 00:29:04:07
Brendan
moss, so that it can literally range from 2 to 5 or 1 to 5, probably. It's not as, not as many as people probably think.

00:29:04:12 - 00:29:29:16
DJ
Kind of depends on access to like if it's a boulder that's easy to get to. Like we can get there like first thing right in the morning, like, and spend a whole day on it and maybe there's some other ones around it you can get a lot done. But if it's like if the approach is like an hour plus and we have to like bushwhack to get there and like even find it the first time and then it's going to that usually takes like multiple days because one, it's just getting there and then trying to get all our stuff there.

00:29:29:16 - 00:29:33:10
DJ
And then you try and start cleaning and maybe you don't finish it and you have to go back. But.

00:29:33:13 - 00:29:54:12
Brendan
Right. Those are the, the some of those are pretty special boulders where they're clearly like five star world class. And they're worth the the multi-day effort type of thing. And, and when I answered the one through five, like I, you know, it varies completely because I could go out and clean probably 20 boulders that are ten foot tall.

00:29:54:14 - 00:30:04:07
Brendan
I'm not doing that, though. I'm usually sticking to much taller lines. And and that takes a lot more logistics and effort.

00:30:04:07 - 00:30:11:20
Kyle
are you looking for? What what are the what's what's your eye like? What's your vision like when you're looking for these boulders to actually sit down and actually establish roots

00:30:13:11 - 00:30:42:08
Brendan
Definitely the striking singular lines that aren't contrived that are, I would say minimum 15ft 15 is a really good number. It's it's both high enough where you can get multiple moves in and, and low enough where you can feel comfortable falling. Typically, unless you, you know, have to put yourself in the awkward position up there, it's that that's a good that's a good range to shoot for.

00:30:42:08 - 00:30:58:01
Kyle
there something special about a boulder that has just one route on it versus like, oh, this boulders got five routes. It's like there's boulders got a single face, it's overhanging and it's got one classic V8 on it is like, are those kind of the gems that stand out in the boulder in the Boulder world?

00:30:58:13 - 00:31:17:26
Brendan
I would say so, that that's like kind of definitely Eric Jerome's whole thing, like the most primo boulder problem is a single line up, the easiest face of of a boulder. That, I mean, in theory, is the greatest boulder problem ever,

00:31:18:21 - 00:31:18:25
Kyle
The.

00:31:18:25 - 00:31:20:08
Kyle
Easiest face,

00:31:20:08 - 00:31:32:02
Brendan
the easiest face. And so everything there's one line on the entire boulder. Yeah. I mean, it could be zero, and then the rest are impossible.

00:31:35:14 - 00:31:55:16
Brendan
Yeah, technically, I don't really look at it like that. I look at it like, is this a pure line where if I start here, I can only go one place and that's or typically like the you want to take the easiest path up the rock. Now clearly there's there's link ups that happen in bouldering and trad and sport and everything.

00:31:55:18 - 00:31:58:09
Brendan
But those definitely to me get less stars.

00:31:58:26 - 00:32:07:01
Kyle
Yeah. 100%. I could see that for sure. I guess on the topic of actual specific routes, talk to me about the V 13, deadliness.

00:32:08:17 - 00:32:30:24
Brendan
Yeah. As a long project was like, I could, I could call that a seven year project, but it really wasn't. It's not a seven year project. And staring at that wall for seven years, it's like smack dab in the middle of gold mine, which is the main area, and it's surrounded by five star lines. Like, literally, you can just toss rocks and hit, I don't know, 25 star lines.

00:32:30:24 - 00:32:54:08
Brendan
It's it's insane. But it's smack dab where everybody hangs out and it's just always there. And I look at it and for a while it was like, does it go? I don't know if it goes. And then I started to slowly try the, the, clean it. And so I cleaned it. I tried the bottom, I tried the top, I tried the middle, I tried to link, and I still wasn't sure.

00:32:54:08 - 00:33:15:22
Brendan
And it took a few years and a few sessions of like, okay, yeah, I finally linked to this. It does go, which brought it to, like, a pretty serious two year effort. Now, granted, I'm a weekend warrior and I'm also the developer of the nook, so I'm doing way more stuff than just trying this one thing.

00:33:15:22 - 00:33:21:22
Brendan
So I may have 1 to 3 sessions on it a year.

00:33:21:25 - 00:33:22:20
DJ
Yeah.

00:33:22:23 - 00:33:23:21
Brendan
Yeah, yeah. I mean.

00:33:23:25 - 00:33:25:17
DJ
Not maybe just one a season.

00:33:25:17 - 00:33:52:04
Brendan
Yeah. Or one one weekend where I, I'm like, I'll, I'll try it Saturday. I'll try it Sunday. And, so, so yeah, I did and I slowly pieced together. But then I would fail and I would have to try again the following season. And it's not like it was never like a primary motivation up until this last season where I was like, okay, it's time to really put some dedicated effort into this.

00:33:52:04 - 00:34:06:29
Brendan
And I think it was two trips, two dedicated trips where I was clearly still developing, but I wasn't climbing much except for that line, and I was trying to piece it together.

00:34:07:01 - 00:34:25:07
DJ
And it was I was low key, kind of like pressuring him and kind of wanting him to do it because it was for the film, like, so like Brennan had not seen the film ever until the first screening, like the actual release where we showed in the theater and everyone was there. He didn't know anything about it. He hadn't seen it.

00:34:25:09 - 00:34:39:14
DJ
And so he didn't know that, like, for me to, like, bookend this thing and actually like, like I needed him to send this fucking round. And so it's like, it's like I'm like, hey, man, why why don't you really? You should you should try that. Like, maybe we go session there and he's like, no, I want to go clean this other bowl.

00:34:39:14 - 00:35:00:28
DJ
And I'm like, but what if we like went in session there? So it was like, yeah, it's like the. And then eventually it was like, dude, I need you to send this round, like to end the film. Like, you got to do it like you got to send. So he was actually training specifically for it, put aside some things that he wanted develop to actually work and like session at Boulder and yeah.

00:35:00:29 - 00:35:02:03
DJ
Yeah.

00:35:02:05 - 00:35:04:03
Brendan
And it barely came together to it was.

00:35:04:04 - 00:35:06:07
DJ
Yeah. Like is there a script that we could go in the.

00:35:06:07 - 00:35:29:06
Brendan
Script last trip probably. I only had maybe 1 to 2 goals left in me before we had to go home. And yeah, it was pretty magical, like send, where, you know, you always hear about the the flow state stuff and it's true. And I love feeling that, there when you get to the top of the boulder, you have no idea what happened, really.

00:35:29:09 - 00:35:35:05
Brendan
And, executed perfectly and sent. And it was just like, so cool.

00:35:35:05 - 00:35:38:29
Kyle
hell yeah. Describe the movement. Describe the crux.

00:35:39:01 - 00:36:06:21
Brendan
Hell is a super long, super tall boulder problem. It starts off with, like, this kind of traverses uphill. You're traversing, but you're still climbing kind of upwards. And, it's like a bunch of tic tac e's 6 to 8 moves into, this nails crux. I've never had to describe this problem out loud. Well, except for the film, I guess.

00:36:06:24 - 00:36:33:09
Brendan
You got to take this good left hand side pole and you got a dead point up at your feet. Stay on. So, I guess. Is that a dead point? Yes. Yeah. It's at that point, and you got to snag this tiny, tiny crimp, and it's sharp. It's painful, and it hurts so bad. And once you snag it, you have to hit it just perfect where you can lock it in to a full crimp because you can't do anything else with it while moving your feet.

00:36:33:09 - 00:36:57:19
Brendan
Two foot moves to like, kind of sag on that crimp, and then you have to dive up to a gas on, which is also bad. So so basically you have to virtually be able to hold a, I don't know, five mil edge with one hand and uneven, on the overhang. And it's just like it's it caught me.

00:36:57:21 - 00:37:24:00
Brendan
Two seasons ago to the point where, it ruined a whole week of climbing for me. And, that's not the end of the climb. The climb continues up, through some tic tac moves into, like, a, v6, V7 high ball finish. And, I would get through the beginning quite often, and into the middle and, and towards the end.

00:37:24:00 - 00:37:46:03
Brendan
But my hands would, would like so many moves, there's no place to chalk up, at all. I would try, I would try and all of them would just, like, completely just drain me of energy every single time I tried. The holds aren't good enough to do that. The feet aren't good enough to do that. And I just had to continue climbing and, yeah, I don't know.

00:37:46:03 - 00:37:53:03
Brendan
I would just numb out every single time I got to the top.

00:37:53:05 - 00:37:55:01
Brendan
I me too. I'm glad it's over.

00:37:55:04 - 00:37:58:00
DJ
Fuck, yeah.

00:37:58:03 - 00:38:19:02
Brendan
Yeah. I'll never try that boulder problem again. Like it's a beautiful. I mean, it's a it's a beautiful five star, world class boulder problem. Clearly. But it is sharp and it is painful and it is hard and I never want to touch it again.

00:38:19:09 - 00:38:36:05
DJ
You want a lot of pads for it to like. What was beneficial is there were there happened to be some other people around that weekend and they were pretty generous and like, let us use their pads, to build it because like, that is the other aspect of like trying to film him is the there's a lack of spotters going on.

00:38:36:08 - 00:38:41:02
DJ
So it's like you, you want as much film under you as possible for some of those high balls.

00:38:41:02 - 00:38:52:15
Kyle
foam pads and spotters synonymous with, like, safe sense? Like, do you need an equal ratio of pads to senders or is or spotters or do you need like two spotters, like how does the spotter work?

00:38:52:25 - 00:39:19:01
Brendan
Well, I don't usually have spotters because I like this whole thing before. It's I mean, I wouldn't still say it's like a popular area, right? It's still. Well under development. But I this mission has been my mission, and it's been following me around, and he's behind the camera. Right. And so it's me and him, and I'm left with the option to do or don't do.

00:39:19:01 - 00:39:21:18
Brendan
And I usually want to do so.

00:39:21:18 - 00:39:36:22
DJ
Like I only carry the camera gear. He carries all the pads. So it's like whatever pads he's one comfortable carrying into is comfortable climbing on with underneath him. Like that's it. Like that. That's the amount of pass that he's mostly sending away.

00:39:36:25 - 00:39:40:11
DJ
So yeah. Yeah that's fun.

00:39:40:11 - 00:40:03:07
Kyle
there. What about. Okay, so we talked about route Velma. What about crag development? So now we're going a little bit bigger picture. Now we're thinking about, like, boulders in an area like, also like, topics here, like grade distribution, trail development, you know, fighting against time in nature, like time and time and nature taking over the trails that you, you know, worked on.

00:40:03:09 - 00:40:09:25
Kyle
Talk to me about that process in the bigger frame, for, like, these crags, right. Is it called a crag or what is it called?

00:40:10:24 - 00:40:36:27
DJ
Yeah. Or like crag or like area. So I think there's there's a difference between like there's one awesome boulder and then you make a trail to just that one boulder. Right now there's like a crag or an area where it's multiple boulders and that. So then you have to create a trail system within that area, like not just to get to the area, but then like amongst all the different routes and boulders that are there.

00:40:36:29 - 00:40:56:13
DJ
And then even in the future, potentially like because there are head walls around where all these boulders fell off of. So you maybe want to get trails up to that to for maybe some like rope climbing and stuff, but you have to make it like navigable for anybody. Like when they walk in, it should be very obvious where they should stay and like how to get from one boulder to the next.

00:40:56:15 - 00:41:08:24
DJ
So yeah, like that, that would be the biggest difference between like route development and then like actual crag is when there's enough boulders there to call it an area. Now it's like, how do you get around amongst all those boulders?

00:41:09:21 - 00:41:18:21
Kyle
And what's that trail creating process. Like. Are you just doing it by yourselves. Do you always like bring a crew out there. How much of like bush cutting is involved.

00:41:19:20 - 00:41:46:00
DJ
Well, the like initially it was it's always just been like myself and Brendan or a few of the first guys that went up to like, like, that's how it originally was. It's only been those handful of people that have had done it the entire time. And then I think there's a difference between like a developers trail and then like a general use trail, like developers trail is like we're just trying to find it and find the area.

00:41:46:00 - 00:42:02:21
DJ
And it's just like path of least resistance. Like you just you just have to get there. You're carrying a bunch of shit with you. You don't want to dilly dally. You just go on an actual trail. You're trying to be more intentional about, like, how is that trail going to like, like what's going to happen to that trail over the few years?

00:42:02:21 - 00:42:20:16
DJ
Like, is it going to cause erosion? Like, is it going to is a bunch of water going to pool an area where you're making it so you have to be more cognizant of like elevation, like where the trail goes and stuff. And then you have to do that, like between all the boulders, like getting from one boulder to the next boulder to the next boulder, especially if there's stuff uphill.

00:42:24:22 - 00:42:27:07
DJ
Yeah.

00:42:27:07 - 00:42:28:24
Kyle
really address it either.

00:42:30:13 - 00:42:32:29
Kyle
to use boats to get to the crags?

00:42:32:29 - 00:42:33:14
Kyle
Like,

00:42:33:20 - 00:42:36:26
DJ
To one of them.

00:42:36:29 - 00:42:38:07
DJ
The canoe to get over to.

00:42:38:12 - 00:42:51:10
Brendan
Oh, yeah. Yeah. No that was just. No that's not that's not the nooks at all. I was actually kind of semi concerned about that when I saw the film. Yeah. People would think that it's all about boats.

00:42:51:10 - 00:43:08:25
DJ
So initially like there is this one very well developed area. It's called Bolger's Lake and that's the lake. That's in the film that you see Brendan walk across and then you see us take a boat across. So initially we found a new boulder when we walked across the lake in the winter when it was frozen and we saw it when we went back in the spring.

00:43:08:27 - 00:43:24:04
DJ
Oh, the the fastest way to get there is across the lake then. And there's a boat here. Like we should take that boat and then come to find out the second day when we went there, it's like we could have just taken the trail that we already had developed to the other boulders and just kept walking through the woods like ten minutes, and we would have been there.

00:43:24:06 - 00:43:32:26
DJ
So the boat wasn't necessary. But we didn't realize that until after we had already taken the boat. And we're like, the footage is pretty fucking cool, so I'm just going to put it in the.

00:43:32:26 - 00:43:35:27
DJ
Film like this.

00:43:35:27 - 00:43:38:25
Kyle
That's a good disclaimer though. No no boat requirements.

00:43:38:25 - 00:43:43:18
DJ
no, no. Yeah.

00:43:43:20 - 00:43:54:06
Brendan
Oh, the the, the other boat was a canoe in the film I think. And that is an area called Eyeball Crag and that's, that's like a 300ft tall multi pitch, a.

00:43:54:06 - 00:43:55:03
DJ
Lot of good rope there.

00:43:55:09 - 00:43:59:17
Brendan
Like two mile long cliff. I mean, it's massive and crazy and.

00:43:59:22 - 00:44:00:28
DJ
That's for it mixed.

00:44:00:28 - 00:44:12:28
Brendan
That you can get to it two ways. You can get to it through a dirt road that's like ten miles long down a or logging road down to the base. Or you can take the canoe across and it's like a five minute walk.

00:44:13:00 - 00:44:13:08
DJ
Yeah.

00:44:13:08 - 00:44:16:15
DJ
So like a new beta is really good.

00:44:16:15 - 00:44:19:26
Kyle
that had been developed by that one guy that you had mentioned in the other podcast, right?

00:44:20:09 - 00:44:27:27
Brendan
That's correct. Yep. Gus Alexandroupolis.

00:44:27:29 - 00:44:31:22
DJ
Yes. That's so many syllables.

00:44:31:22 - 00:44:43:00
Kyle
on the topic of rope climbing. So it sounds like it, the Nook's itself has kind of like this untouched opportunity for a person wanting to come out and kind of put up first descents for rope climbing.

00:44:43:01 - 00:44:44:03
Kyle
Is that true?

00:44:44:13 - 00:45:14:16
Brendan
I would say so, yeah. Overall it's very untouched. Especially if you like, like just expand that by 50, 50 miles. Like the amount of cliffs. And what you could find out there is just untapped and unexplored and no one knows but what's what's been established. There's actually like quite a bit of trad and some sport that's already established, not only at the nooks, which some of it is like kind of behind the scenes and not talked about yet.

00:45:14:18 - 00:45:40:15
Brendan
And and then down the road at Eyeball Crag and other crags around Elliot Lake and that stuff is just going to expand from here, and it's going to be kind of kind of a climbing Mecca of sport trad bouldering, ice climbing. It's got it all, and it's all right there. The sport, I would say, is the least thing that it's going to have.

00:45:40:15 - 00:45:46:11
Brendan
But if you're an adventure trad climber, it's got so much, it's insane.

00:45:46:13 - 00:45:47:09
DJ
Yeah.

00:45:47:09 - 00:45:48:25
Kyle
cool.

00:45:48:27 - 00:46:10:15
Kyle
What about land development? So you talked about the OAC and some shut downs in the last podcast. Has that kind of reached into your world at the Nook's at all? Have you guys had to as this thing has grown, have you had to seek permits or talk to anybody about land access? I'm curious about that portion of kind of this as we start to expand this, this, view of the

00:46:11:20 - 00:46:52:01
Brendan
Yeah. So the Nook's is on Crown land, so it's still all right to climb upon. Now, having said that, it's it's a thing in Ontario where crown land is like this gray area. And that's how it's treated by all climbers, including the OIC. And they still do it and everybody does it. And it's it's not technically an illegal activity, but, you could say that it'd be frowned upon if you got, you know, if if somebody found out that you scrubbed boulders or you made a trail, even though we're not, like cutting down trees, we're not doing anything crazy.

00:46:52:03 - 00:47:25:08
Brendan
We're not clear cutting hugely, like, around the boulders. We're keeping it as natural as possible. It's still this weird activity that's not necessarily like completely 100% legal. Now, having said that, we have gotten involved with Elliot Lake, the city. It's 30 minutes south. It's it's, you know, got the majority of everything you want, including a hospital. So you feel like you're out there at the nooks, but actually 30 minutes away of a hospital, you got a grocery store, you have a you have a nice little city.

00:47:25:10 - 00:47:56:07
Brendan
And the city council has been extremely interested in what we were doing up there because they're transitioning from a retirement community to, a tourism destination. And with that, they have latched onto this climbing thing. They've had, photographers come out and take pictures, were on brochures, were on signs. Actually, we're on their website. So the city doesn't have any control over, crown land.

00:47:56:07 - 00:48:11:08
Brendan
Like, it's not legally, they can't do anything about it, but they are fully supportive of it, and they will go to bat with us. And for us, which is really cool. And like, with that, we've sat down with them, we've had many meetings and.

00:48:12:28 - 00:48:41:06
Brendan
I mean, this is kind of a side tangent of like what we've done outside of climbing there, but we've also tried to not involve the community. But I mean, we're reached out by the local high school, and we've spoken at the local high school, to try to get kids involved and, there's, there's, there's, Jax bike shop, who now carries rental crash pads and sells chalk.

00:48:41:06 - 00:49:09:20
Brendan
And so it's we're slowly trying to get the city involved into this new thing without them having the same connotations that the some general public think of rock climbers. Right? Like it's not always a, a good thing. Like, we know rock climbers are people that really care about the, the environment and stuff like that. And so we're trying to really just nail down that we're here and we care.

00:49:09:26 - 00:49:27:02
Kyle
It seems like that's going pretty well. And it sounds like the adoption has been pretty. I would say that's pretty fantastic to have the city behind your back like that and ready to bat and businesses already starting to kind of include climbers into their, their operations and kind of marketing to them in the first place. It's pretty cool to see.

00:49:27:18 - 00:49:46:06
DJ
For sure. And I think that's like, you see, we've been fortunate enough compared to like, some of the other areas in Ontario that have struggled with shutdowns and stuff. I think because we were we kind of like developed our relationship with the city early on instead of like randomly being like, what are you guys doing out here and what's going on?

00:49:46:07 - 00:50:10:11
DJ
Like, we like you and you were in contact with them pretty early on, and then we started having meetings with them and they were more and more curious. They did their homework, we did our homework, and we just kept meeting and meeting, and they really started to see the benefits of like leaning into it. So instead of like trying to, like, hide stuff and then like, like keep things secret and like, maybe getting found out, like developing that relationship with the city right from the get go.

00:50:10:11 - 00:50:13:09
DJ
I think that was definitely the way to go.

00:50:13:09 - 00:50:41:26
Kyle
smart for sure. There's, there's the story of Joe's Valley in Utah, and there's, like, a big climbing area out there. And apparently, at first, like, all these sprinter vans and stuff, or we're going out to Joe's Valley and all the people are like, what the hell are all these climbers doing? And there was a bit of resistance at first, but then, you know, someone had the idea to open up, like, I forget was a kombucha, like a kombucha thing, or they started selling kombucha or whatever, and then like, essentially they just, like, started attracting the climbers into the city.

00:50:41:26 - 00:50:59:03
Kyle
And then there's this big revenue stream, and then the town realized, like, wow. Like, these are actually people that we can monetize our economy off of, and they're going to be here regardless. So, like, let's, you know, adopt them into our community. So, yeah, it's just cool that you guys are just another example, example of that.

00:50:59:05 - 00:51:14:09
Kyle
It's pretty rad. I think that's important to. Yeah, you don't want to. It's definitely not a situation where you want to ask for forgiveness or like, have done so much work up to the point. And then there's a problem. It's like you guys are up front from the very beginning, so

00:51:15:24 - 00:51:18:20
Brendan
We hope so.

00:51:18:22 - 00:51:20:14
DJ
You know.

00:51:20:14 - 00:51:38:23
Kyle
like, so what about, like, future lookout, like, massive adoption, classic area. Like, who is going to be able to be the person that, like, installs parking areas or restrooms or pit toilets or outhouses? Like, is that something that you guys have even considered, in terms of like

00:51:40:10 - 00:51:45:29
DJ
No, no, I think for that stuff that that would almost have to come.

00:51:46:01 - 00:51:46:22
Brendan
That's part.

00:51:46:22 - 00:52:09:26
DJ
Of us. Yeah. Or fall on, like a local or like local type. So like, the city would almost have to ask for that through like their, their tiers of government that oversee Crown land and stuff like that. Something where if they saw if it was viable enough because right now with the numbers with are at like there's there's some that road is pretty low traffic in general.

00:52:09:29 - 00:52:29:21
DJ
So like just parking on the side of the road isn't an issue. But like if it got to the point where like something like that would have to happen, that would just kind of probably fall on like locals and local government to say like, hey, this is part of our revenue stream that we need for the year. Like, so these type of things need to be built in and put into place.

00:52:29:21 - 00:52:32:21
Kyle
that makes sense. I hope it gets to the point where those kind of questions

00:52:33:29 - 00:52:35:19
DJ
Yeah, yeah, that'd be cool.

00:52:35:19 - 00:52:56:16
Kyle
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00:53:43:12 - 00:54:05:29
Kyle
Nice. Dude. So this next kind of, section, I want to, ask some questions specifically, about Brandon. And then I've got, some questions specifically with TJ and like the filming process about the actual film and kind of diving into your whole role, in this, in this conversation here.

00:54:06:02 - 00:54:27:20
Kyle
Let's see. So, Brandon, we talked about a little bit about this in the last episode about kind of like your trajectory as a, as an athlete where you kind of like there was potentially this path as a professional athlete, and then you definitely chose the path as a, as a developer. And you've been down that path for for quite a long time now.

00:54:27:22 - 00:54:35:08
Kyle
Do you ever look back at that, at that decision and kind of think about, like the direction you could have gone as, as an athlete or a professional athlete?

00:54:37:23 - 00:55:04:12
Brendan
No, I don't think so. I'm okay, I'm okay. I really I really, really, really enjoy. Like, this is fulfilled. Everything for me that I was seeking in in rock climbing. And so it's given. I don't know, it's given me so much. Like, who knows if I could have turned pro, who knows if I could, you know, if I would have been a, a level pro, a B level pro, somebody that's barely sponsored living in a van, like, I don't, I don't know.

00:55:04:12 - 00:55:29:18
Brendan
And, and, and I don't really care at this point. And, grades mean so much less to me than, than than they used to. And that's not a bad thing. In in either direction. I mean, people that care about grades, it's great. And I still do care about grades, and I want to climb hard, and I want to push myself and I would have, I guess, like to see how high of a number I could have climbed.

00:55:29:23 - 00:55:56:17
Brendan
And maybe I still can of at the next there's, there is, quite a few hard boulder projects, so, that's still a possibility, but those are then first ascents and not going to repeat something that's established. So there maybe a little bit of regret, but in terms of like, I don't know, I mean, I it's like, would I rather go do a phase or go do try hard problems that are already established?

00:55:56:20 - 00:56:18:25
Brendan
For sense all the way and, and I don't regret, like, what I'm doing at all. And it's, it's confusing to a lot of people. Like they don't get it. Still to this day, even though, like, we're 400 boulders deep and, like, this thing is growing and it's clearly a climbing area, and it's clearly, like, really awesome.

00:56:18:27 - 00:56:30:12
Brendan
It's still like, why would you go up there to work? Like, work harder than you do at the job that you already work hard at?

00:56:30:15 - 00:56:34:04
DJ
At home. So.

00:56:34:04 - 00:56:49:05
Kyle
So, you know, with everything we do in life, there's always sacrifices in certain parts of our, our areas of our life to achieve things that we want to happen. Where would you say you've made some sacrifices in your life for this development of the nooks?

00:56:50:19 - 00:56:51:14
DJ
What are you.

00:56:51:14 - 00:57:20:29
Brendan
Looking at before? Yeah. So, I mean, I've made a ton of sacrifices, through, I guess, the biggest one was probably the, the climbing relationship. My my climbing partner relationships, the people that I've known the most through all my years, my mentors, my best climbing friends and all that stuff has honestly been put to the side for the last seven years.

00:57:20:29 - 00:57:44:02
Brendan
You know, my best. One of my best friends, and best climbing partner. Only recently, actually. His first trip is next week, and I can't go. He can finally go to the next after seven years because he he hasn't, he was banned from Canada. The all the school. Just keep it at that in his. Yeah.

00:57:44:05 - 00:58:12:17
Brendan
He's finally, 100% very easy. And so he's finally allowed back in. I'm not allowed to go and that's a bummer. But for the last seven years, I've. I abandoned, you know, that relationship and I, I, I did that to a lot of people and that that's not necessarily something that I'm like, proud of and but I really like needed this thing like this thing called to me and, and I saw the vision for it.

00:58:12:17 - 00:58:20:05
Kyle
Yeah that's interesting I never I never actually thought about that. Yeah. It's like if you're not coming to the nooks with me, then we're not really hanging

00:58:21:04 - 00:58:25:02
Brendan
Yeah. Exactly.

00:58:25:02 - 00:58:34:18
Kyle
kind of seeing this development and like, how has she been a supporter versus, question like questioning from the beginning? Like, how has that kind of process developed?

00:58:35:09 - 00:58:55:04
Brendan
Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm sure she thought I was nuts, but, I don't think we ever, like, we never, like, had a crazy fights over this weird thing that I was doing. It was probably a bunch of skepticism and. And, like, here's Brennan going off on another thing, doing this weird thing because she's not a rock climber.

00:58:55:07 - 00:59:19:14
Brendan
So it's harder for her to understand, than a rock climber. But at this point, she understands the lingo. She I mean, she clearly knows exactly what's going on. So that has, like, come kind of full circle where it, you know, climbing and climbing trips was like a, a little bit of, problem between us and which was always resolved.

00:59:19:14 - 00:59:38:04
Brendan
And it was never, like, a huge deal. But it's come, come, come full circle where I'm sure she doesn't want me to leave, but she understands it. She understands that I. That I need this and and because we don't have rocks in Michigan, I have to travel to do it.

00:59:38:06 - 00:59:40:16
Brendan
So. Yeah. Yeah, she's been up there.

00:59:42:22 - 00:59:52:06
Kyle
Listen, this is, this is a just a random question, but you are always eating an apple in the film. Is that a thing?

00:59:52:14 - 01:00:02:29
Brendan
No, it's not a thing. Maybe it's a thing I don't know.

01:00:03:02 - 01:00:09:06
Brendan
I really don't like apples there much. However, bananas don't last. Very good, you know.

01:00:09:08 - 01:00:14:06
DJ
Like so. Okay.

01:00:14:08 - 01:00:17:24
DJ
It's so fun. I'm so glad you noticed that. Because you're the first.

01:00:17:24 - 01:00:38:09
DJ
Person that's finally brought that up. Because, like, when I'm editing it, I'm just, like, got another fucking apple shot. Or it's like, dude, we're in the middle of an interview. Why? And why didn't I say anything? Like, you're eating a fucking apple in the middle of the interview? And I'm like, I didn't even notice their pay attention. And I'm adding, I'm like, Apple, apple, Apple and apple.

01:00:38:11 - 01:00:46:08
DJ
But like, I noticed that every time now. And I'm so glad, Kyle, that you brought that up because like nobody else has said anything about the apples.

01:00:46:21 - 01:00:52:25
Kyle
Yeah. I was I was wondering if it was a stylistic choice or if, Brendan just loved apples, but

01:00:53:05 - 01:00:58:24
DJ
Sheer coincidence or sheer coincidence, all the important shots is eating the fucking apple.

01:00:59:26 - 01:01:03:08
Kyle
the. Are you familiar with the developer in the Front Range called talent ish?

01:01:03:08 - 01:01:05:25
DJ
Know.

01:01:08:05 - 01:01:12:15
DJ
How cool I am.

01:01:12:15 - 01:01:20:05
Kyle
if you go back and listen to his episode, he, he talks about essentially like, understanding the song of an area that was kind of his

01:01:21:11 - 01:01:26:07
Kyle
know, where the mushrooms grow, you know, where the deer cross, you know, where the, trees grow.

01:01:26:07 - 01:01:46:04
Kyle
You know, when the sun comes up in this winter or when it goes down in the spring, like you become so intimately involved with an area that he feels that you need to have that kind of understanding of an area to, better kind of like establish roots that coexist with that flow with that. Nature's like the energy of the nature.

01:01:46:06 - 01:01:55:18
Kyle
Do you resonate with that philosophy? Do you resonate with that kind of experience, and if so, how would you like describe the the details and the nuances of the nooks that you've picked

01:01:58:08 - 01:02:01:10
DJ
Wow. Okay.

01:02:01:13 - 01:02:18:00
Brendan
That is deep. I don't know if I can get that. The the song of an area. That's remarkable. Yeah, I guess I've never. I don't know if I've ever thought of it like that. It I've definitely thought about the nooks, as.

01:02:18:00 - 01:02:20:01
DJ
In.

01:02:20:03 - 01:02:41:00
Brendan
It's definitely way more comfortable of a place for me now than it used to be. And that that makes things, that, like, much easier and much easier to, like, coexist in that space with the rocks and, and, and mitigate the, the dangers, in that way. So I don't know if that answers the question exactly.

01:02:41:03 - 01:02:48:12
Brendan
Because.

01:02:48:15 - 01:03:17:29
Brendan
Yes, yes, yes, I guess, geologically, it's very hilly, as is most climbing areas, I guess. But when you study the terrain and you go into the terrain, most people would probably get lost. However, if you, if you study it and you realize that all of these, like, I know the area so well that I, I probably can't get lost because I understand that the hills are like fingers.

01:03:18:01 - 01:03:35:05
Brendan
So the geology of the place is, very much looks like a hand and it's all these different ridgelines. And so in that aspect, yes, to answer your question, I think.

01:03:35:05 - 01:03:48:17
Kyle
thought his his, his expression of his connection to the nature was like. I was just, like, very poetic. And, I just I was going to pose it to you and see if there was any, things that came out

01:03:49:15 - 01:03:56:03
Brendan
No, that was a remarkable list. I gotta I gotta listen to the episode.

01:03:56:03 - 01:03:56:27
Kyle
for sure.

01:03:57:17 - 01:04:15:19
Kyle
All right, I want to jump into your story a little bit and your your perspective of this this, this film that you shot. And I watched it, you know, the the, early where the secret release or the behind the scenes that you allowed me to watch, which I really appreciated. And it's just, like, super well done.

01:04:15:19 - 01:04:33:22
Kyle
As, like a as another. I've never shot anything as long format as that. But I do have a lot of experience behind the camera in short form content and commercials and stuff. So, I definitely just can I can see the skills. I can see the, the vision, and the artful ness that you bring to your craft.

01:04:33:22 - 01:04:37:04
Kyle
So it's really, really cool to see. So just right up there, like,

01:04:39:29 - 01:04:41:13
DJ
Thank you. I appreciate that.

01:04:41:13 - 01:04:53:20
Kyle
Your vision for the film, mostly area awareness and support to Brendan. Or has profit generation been kind of a driving factor from the beginning?

01:04:53:28 - 01:05:17:00
DJ
Oh, no. Like this. This will. I'll never recover financially from this film. Like. Like I said, this is not. There's no hope. Like, I. I think we try to do the math multiple times of, like, what it actually cost for us to make this, and it's like like that I, I highly, highly doubt that that will ever, like break even from that one and even like you to breaking even developing like developing so expensive.

01:05:17:02 - 01:05:51:27
DJ
So like like that hope is gone. So it's strictly, I think, awareness for the nooks for sure. Like that's like that's the big main piece. But I think too like as the like climbing as a sport is growing and expanding. And most of our newer climbers are starting inside, I think like the history and, the work that goes into outdoor climbing because like when I was growing up, like how you learned about climbing was unless you had like an older mentor that could, like, show you around and teach you, you literally had to just go out.

01:05:51:27 - 01:06:22:04
DJ
And it was mostly just trial and error. So I didn't I didn't know when I was younger to how roots got there and how they were developed. And like, who put these bolts in the wall? Like what what? Those weren't just there. So like learning that history and especially if most people are coming from indoor and going into outdoor, I want that like telling that story of like how these areas, like any time you go to an area now after seeing the film, hopefully you're saying like, oh, somebody like somebody came here first and somebody did all this work, like, I wonder who that was.

01:06:22:11 - 01:06:43:04
DJ
Maybe you dive into it a little bit more. Now that area means something a little more to you because you're learning about it from, you know, like a completely different perspective. So that the that was another main focus that was like that. I think that's a story that needs to be told. And it just so happens I'm friends with somebody that's developing a brand new area like that, and that worked out brilliantly.

01:06:43:09 - 01:07:07:11
Kyle
Do you feel like there's like a misrepresent to like the whole premise of this podcast is like a misrepresentation between the, you know, the focus of media on the elite climbers versus, you know, what I've deemed as the majority. It sounds like you're kind of alluding to, a similar vein where there's a misrepresentation for like, you know, the hard sense versus the pros cess that goes into even allowing those ends to exist in the first place.

01:07:07:11 - 01:07:09:29
Kyle
Like, would you agree in a kind of a discrepancy there?

01:07:09:29 - 01:07:33:28
DJ
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, Brennan touched on it in the film, too. Like the all the stuff that you read in here about, like, nowadays is like, either the hardest thing or like, the scariest thing or like, you survive something. But for most of us, like, that's not the experience that we have every day with climbing. Like, how how can I identify with somebody that like flash movie 15 or like crush these 17?

01:07:34:01 - 01:08:04:18
DJ
Like, is that shit inspiring? Absolutely. But is that like something that I'm gonna identify with and, like, actually, like, I like, want to do. No. Like that's not that's not what I care about when I see climbing like the best scenes that I've ever seen are always like whenever somebody is climbing their hardest and it doesn't matter what that grade is, it might be like V2, v3, like even just climbing outside for the first time, or like V 13, like when you see somebody really push their limits, it doesn't matter what the grade is.

01:08:04:18 - 01:08:41:00
DJ
And that's the that's the cooler thing to see. And I think even just like people's relationships with climbing, like how that's changed, like we see a lot of first timers come to the looks like it's their first time bouldering outside and that like, that's incredible to see and be able to witness that. Like, I think like seeing those type of things and trying to get more of those stories and that type of stuff out there, like in the film itself, like, how hard things were was never really focused on, I mean, sending the 13 at the end like that bookmarks the film, but even like how the film progresses, like, I don't really put

01:08:41:00 - 01:09:02:07
DJ
a lot of names and grades on stuff and 12 until the very end because like that, I don't think that that is as important as the experience that you get, the memory of the place, the relationships that you develop with people while you're there, the relationship with the nature while you're there. Like the I agree with you, I think that there's there's too much of a focus on like really, really hard shit.

01:09:02:07 - 01:09:10:11
DJ
And I, I'm not saying that that isn't as important, but I don't think it's as important as what the rest of us are experiencing when we go outside.

01:09:10:11 - 01:09:30:06
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01:10:10:07 - 01:10:21:11
Kyle
Logistics. So filming is a lot of fucking work. It is insane. Like, especially long format over multiple. How many years have you been shooting this?

01:10:21:22 - 01:10:24:17
DJ
For four and a half. Yeah. Four and a.

01:10:24:17 - 01:10:26:02
DJ
Half.

01:10:26:02 - 01:10:30:04
Kyle
I mean, like, talk to me about the plan for the film.

01:10:30:04 - 01:10:46:04
Kyle
Did it evolve over time? Did you have a vision for like, the essence of the film from the beginning, and you were piecing it together as it went along or. Yeah. Was it this like evolution that kind of grew and grew and to the point where you're like, okay, now I have enough to kind of put this all together, all together.

01:10:46:04 - 01:11:13:22
DJ
think it was just kind of a little bit of both. Of, like, a plan and an evolution. Because, like, I had an initial plan of what I was hoping it would be, and then that that changed. Like, the more I got into starting to edit it and realizing that I needed other things or that I needed stuff, that I kind of kind of need to fill in those gaps, like, I don't the the whole developing side of it.

01:11:13:25 - 01:11:31:12
DJ
And like going down south and getting a lot of that footage that didn't even occur to me until like year 2 or 3, I was like, oh, there's there's a bigger picture here of a side of this that we need to tell. And it would definitely be better if it came from people that do this all the time and do this for a living.

01:11:31:14 - 01:11:46:22
DJ
So like some of those things that they just kind of happened as I started editing and started putting it together, I was like, oh, this, this would fit really good here. This would fit really good here. Like, let's get some people from Elliot Lake involved. They should definitely be in this too, because they're they're the ones I can talk best about.

01:11:46:22 - 01:12:11:25
DJ
The town. So like it it definitely evolved. It was it was more of like the, a big picture idea of, like, how can we get people to come here? And then how can we give people to care about the work that has been done here? And to think about that when they go to other places, and then how that kind of evolved definitely changed throughout the process.

01:12:11:27 - 01:12:20:24
DJ
For sure, 100%. Yeah. The longest I did before this was like eight minutes.

01:12:20:24 - 01:12:40:01
Kyle
jump. It's a whole nother beast when you're piecing together something huge like that. And I think the the biggest thing is, is like the best films are the ones that have like that element of time. Right? And it's like, yeah, you can see the fact that four years has gone by and there's so like there's a story there and that that is art, man.

01:12:40:01 - 01:13:00:16
Kyle
That takes a lot of effort for sure. What about like, I mean, whether like batteries like, do you have any like third hands, like support crew or anybody else holding cameras? Are you just using natural light? Are you bring in lighting equipment? Do you have a plan for each shoot, each day you go out or you just run and gun shooting, like, what's your procedure

01:13:02:19 - 01:13:15:20
DJ
Okay. So like the logistically it is just me filming the only time that not I am not behind the camera is like, maybe a different angle that, like, Brennan had set up on, like, a phone or something.

01:13:15:20 - 01:13:16:23
DJ
Or.

01:13:16:26 - 01:13:34:15
DJ
The, there's footage that I got from locals down south, and. And Elliot Lake's like some drone footage of things because, like, you can't fly drones down at the red or you're not supposed to. So, like, I reached out to a guy down there that I know that had drone footage of the area and got that stuff from him.

01:13:34:15 - 01:13:53:19
DJ
And then there was a guy that flies drones up in LA. So I got his footage, but other and the rest of it, like the rest of it, it's just me. My hands are on the camera the whole time. So logistically, that was another thing that evolved through the filming process of like initially I would bring everything out to the crag, and that was when we were doing stuff at Gold Mine.

01:13:53:19 - 01:14:19:10
DJ
So that approach was super short. But then when we started venturing out to further areas and you're when you're going through raw Canadian wilderness like every ounce adds up and then the bulk of what you're carrying adds up quite a bit too. So it's like had to reassess the pack every time and every day. It kind of depended on what the route was because like, if it's a much taller boulder, maybe I want to be on a rope next to Brandon while he's climbing.

01:14:19:10 - 01:14:37:01
DJ
So now I have to bring a rope and a harness and all that stuff. If it's a shorter boulder, like I can have a tripod on the ground or I. I manufactured like a jib crane that I would put a camera on and film off of that too. So like it depends on where I was going in. Like one.

01:14:37:01 - 01:14:55:18
DJ
Am I willing to carry all that shit there and then to like, what's a potentially good time of day to film it? But then also, when does Brendan want to climb? Because like, it's hard to balance those things. Like when somebody wants to send like they just want to go and you can't I can't really be like, hey man, can you wait?

01:14:55:18 - 01:15:16:06
DJ
Like, so you kind of always have to be prepared. Yeah. It's like, can we like, there has been times where I'm like, hey, can we at least, like, wait for a cloud or something like this? Angle is great, but the light's a little garbage. But for the most part, it's like I have to be ready. And if he wants to go, like he's going to go, like, I might, I might ask him to do it again to get a different angle or something.

01:15:16:06 - 01:15:30:08
DJ
Or occasionally we hold for light, but a lot of it, it's like you just kind of have to be prepared and like when he's ready to fire the rig, like, okay, here we go.

01:15:30:11 - 01:15:31:17
DJ
Yeah.

01:15:31:17 - 01:15:34:02
Kyle
sliders. Are you mostly handheld?

01:15:34:19 - 01:15:55:29
DJ
So it's it's a combination of everything. Like there. I used to bring a slider out to the crag. That was awesome. I was like year one and two, but it was just logistically, it was too much. It was way too much. Because the tripod that you need for that is way different, and the stabilizing arms that you need to have on that so that it stays level like that was just a lot of gear, gimbals I would use here and there.

01:15:55:29 - 01:16:20:07
DJ
But again, that's just a lot of extra weight. So most of it's just like handheld. And then I really enjoyed locked off shots too. Like I love the idea of camera movement. Like handheld stuff's great when we're just walking around when we're cleaning. But a lot of times, like, the scenery up there is so beautiful. Like, I just want to make, like, a really pretty frame and then let Brandon move in it or let the climber move in it.

01:16:20:07 - 01:16:38:28
DJ
Right? Like the setting is already good enough. Like if there's camera movement while someone's climbing is very minimal. Like I never want them to be like, hey, the camera's moving, I should pay attention. Like it? It's definitely about the scenery. The shot is always about the scenery and about the movement of the climber in the shot.

01:16:38:28 - 01:17:00:01
Kyle
Really cool. Yeah. Just like a subtle scale in something super simple. Sweet. Any other, like, any other things about the filming process that, you know, you found unique to this project that you, you know, want to share? Like, Yeah. Anything about

01:17:02:10 - 01:17:25:11
DJ
Well, I definitely really like the amount of footage that I had. I was like, I totally have enough. Like it's great. It's enough. There's, there's, it seemed like there was never enough B-roll like you just constantly need more and more and more and more like I'm not saying that I wish I would have done it differently, but I do wish there was a lot of times where, like, I had been rolling on that or I mean, like in the edit, you're like, man, I wish I had a shot of this.

01:17:25:11 - 01:17:50:24
DJ
Or like a quick cutaway of that, like, but it's tricky because if you're the only person that's doing it, like, I basically stopped climbing for a big chunk of time so that I could focus on just filming. Like there was a lot of times we'd go out to, like, I wouldn't even bring my shoes and Chuck or like, I would just go up to Canada and I would leave all my climbing shit at home, like, I'm only bringing filming stuff, but you can still only do so much.

01:17:50:26 - 01:18:07:23
DJ
And just the sheer amount of file sizes and storage space then, like the amount of footage that I got was what I saw was enough. But I'm like, man, I kind of wish I would have shot more proof.

01:18:07:26 - 01:18:11:15
DJ
1616.

01:18:11:17 - 01:18:12:29
DJ
Yeah.

01:18:13:01 - 01:18:17:27
DJ
Yeah. Right now, the entire film lives on a 16 terabyte drive.

01:18:17:29 - 01:18:28:11
DJ
Yeah.

01:18:28:13 - 01:18:35:09
DJ
Yes. You're on your way. You're on your way.

01:18:35:11 - 01:18:37:17
DJ
Yeah.

01:18:37:19 - 01:18:58:15
DJ
Said no. Like that was another thing logistically the red we used for a lot of the bigger interviews just because we wanted that the quality and to have to be able to reframe because we were only using one camera. But when, when you're walking around and you're hiking around through elevation and wilderness like, you kind of like less is more.

01:18:58:18 - 01:19:09:17
DJ
So like I shot a lot of stuff on my mirrorless camera. I shot a lot of stuff on my phone, actually, and I was like, I wonder how many people noticed this thing? And I actually shot a fair amount of this on my phone.

01:19:11:04 - 01:19:33:23
DJ
Like, there's a lot of shots, like the jib crane thing. Like that thing is with a phone, like, just because of just sheer weight when you're when you're walking around out there, like, I see a lot of people on big wall stuff doing things with big rigs, and that's fucking nuts to me. Like, that's crazy. But the island, like less is definitely more hiking around and doing all that stuff.

01:19:33:26 - 01:19:38:28
DJ
That's.

01:19:39:00 - 01:20:11:17
Brendan
Both. I think my, my content made it into the film at times. Yeah. But, that's purely for exploration. Yeah, yeah, I it's very helpful. Well, it's less helpful than, I guess you might imagine, depending on the time of year. It's it's good. Like, the forest is so thick that like honestly side tangent, but, like, looking at a satellite map, if I see one, if I see, like a little bit of a cliff that I can clearly see, oh yeah, there's a cliff there.

01:20:11:17 - 01:20:24:04
Brendan
And if I see like one gray blob in the woods, like I'm walking there, that's how that's that's what that means. It's it's I have no idea where the boulders are. I have to walk everywhere. Really.

01:20:24:06 - 01:20:30:11
DJ
So.

01:20:30:13 - 01:20:42:01
Brendan
Yeah. And hopefully with the drone, you can at least see the cliff or the the talus field or the boulders in the woods. And it's, it's, it's a crapshoot. Every time. It's it's hard.

01:20:43:03 - 01:21:07:20
Kyle
So, wrapping this up, Brendan, I'll start with you with this question. Like, what has this entire process from 2018 till now seen this thing start from a vision to what it is now like, what is it taught you about yourself, about the local community, about the climbing community? Like what? What have you learned, along the way during this process?

01:21:08:29 - 01:21:41:21
Brendan
Oh, I've learned that I can do anything I put my mind to. Quite honestly, this has been. I mean, I can't believe where the Nook's is at, and that's that's not just me and my effort. That that's the original developers. That's plenty of other people putting in work to do a couple efforts here and there or a trail day, but, I have done the majority of the work up there.

01:21:41:21 - 01:22:08:29
Brendan
That's there's no question about that. And so to to tell myself that I can put my mind towards building something that's going to last beyond me and actually have it happen, like the Nook's is not going anywhere anytime soon, is incredible. And then it gives me personally, like a lot of confidence that, that if I put my mind to something, I'll accomplish it.

01:22:09:09 - 01:22:15:18
Kyle
Has there been anything else other than the nooks that has you've kind of seen that mentality carry into like any other projects at work

01:22:16:18 - 01:22:36:09
Brendan
Yeah. So I'm a self-employed, trim carpenter. I work on high end homes for a living. Anywhere from, like, 1 to $5 million houses. And any custom woodworking things that go on in those homes. And. And that was like a self-made. I clearly had, you know, bosses and teachers that taught me how to do the stuff.

01:22:36:09 - 01:23:04:26
Brendan
But that was me also taking the horns and learning the trade myself and like watching YouTube videos to learn more and like all sorts of different stuff, to really become an accomplished self-employed person that literally makes their living off of myself and nobody else. And that has been something that's like, I just had to do it. And that's been really cool to see, to.

01:23:05:01 - 01:23:16:21
Kyle
It's awesome. It's rare, to be self-employed like that. And it's, it's really cool to have two huge projects like that, both the nooks and the square you've built for yourself. That's been self-supported

01:23:18:16 - 01:23:20:27
DJ
Yeah, thanks.

01:23:20:27 - 01:23:26:26
Kyle
what have you learned about this? What have you learned about yourself, about the world, about your craft?

01:23:31:06 - 01:23:52:26
DJ
I think I learned, like, the, like the filmmaking community and the community in general. Like, one of the things that I loved about climbing and, like, I became super obsessed with it when I started, was like, the people, right? The community. Like, it's a very beautiful communal sport. And a lot of that same community showed up for this film.

01:23:52:26 - 01:24:13:02
DJ
Like a majority of the people that helped make the film are all climbers. Like the guy that wrote the score, the, the other guy that helped me film the interview is like, like a lot of people that are involved are all like part of the climbing community. And that that was important, that I wanted those people, those type of people to be involved.

01:24:13:04 - 01:24:30:01
DJ
And that communal thing is also like, what kind of help to make the film happening, like how to get it over the finish line. A lot of other random people helped out that I know from the film community and then even like to the release itself, like when we when we had that first screening, like so many more people showed up.

01:24:30:04 - 01:24:54:23
DJ
Then I saw we're going to and from all different pockets of climbing communities in West Michigan and Michigan in general. So it was cool to see like a bunch of people that didn't really know each other super well or didn't climb together. They all came together in this. There's one night and we all enjoyed this thing, like collectively, like as a group that we all just like love climbing and we want to get people outside more and like that.

01:24:54:23 - 01:25:29:23
DJ
That's what we care about. So I think, the thing that I've learned the most is like, the relationships, like it's this thing that I love and this sport that I love and this, this profession that I love is still all based on people and relationships with those people. And I'm excited for the film to hopefully, like, meet more new people up in the nooks, like develop more relationships with people up there, meet other people that have seen the film, meet other people that like, get to know Brendon and I and and like they create their own memories at a place of their like I'm my favorite thing is like seeing people up there

01:25:29:26 - 01:25:53:07
DJ
like for their first time and then when they come back and like I said before, when they bring somebody new, like that, if if what we're doing is contributing to those people making those memories and having those experiences and then passing that on to another person, another person, another person like that, that that's an incredible saying. Like, that's like, fuck me 17.

01:25:53:07 - 01:25:54:07
DJ
I'll take that shit all day.

01:25:54:08 - 01:25:59:12
DJ
Like, yeah, right.

01:25:59:15 - 01:26:24:05
Brendan
It's a it's a really unique community. I mean, not to interject and right at the end, but like it's a it's two countries virtually, coming together, communities that would never really cross paths unless you probably, like, visit a random city, you know, like Toronto, or you go to a camp across borders. It's it's it's communities that would never meet typically.

01:26:24:11 - 01:26:43:10
Brendan
And and I know so many climbers from from Canada now and, and they're all like, just like us and like, clearly they're not, not like us, but it's it's just so rad to to have this experience, in this unique way,

01:26:43:10 - 01:26:45:11
Kyle
yeah. Where,

01:26:45:13 - 01:26:54:24
Kyle
Where do you see the next going? Like, what's the what's the future? Do you see, like, exponential growth, linear growth. What do you see? The future is for the next five,

01:26:55:28 - 01:27:20:14
Brendan
I don't see the next slowing down anytime soon. And hopefully with the film like that does reach, quite a few people. And to spread that experience and get people to travel to the nooks and, you know, we'll continue to develop and continue to trail, build and do all the things that we do up there. And that's not stopping anytime soon.

01:27:20:17 - 01:27:42:20
Brendan
And hopefully a new guidebook is in place when we have about 500 rock climbs, and then we're going to grow from there. And oh, you know, who knows where it takes us, I don't know. And I'm excited to see and to retire from this eventually and let somebody take over because I don't want to do this forever, I really don't.

01:27:42:23 - 01:28:12:06
Brendan
It's not that I would necessarily want to go other places, but I just don't want to always be the one that pushes this thing further and further. Like somebody needs to take the reins eventually. Like, I'm still young, I'm only 34 and so it's not that big of a deal. But I'm waiting and there's people in the wings, hopefully, and hopefully they get, the stoke and learn the area as good as me and continue to grow it.

01:28:12:08 - 01:28:18:08
Brendan
Yeah, yeah. I, I.

01:28:18:10 - 01:28:23:18
DJ
Very.

01:28:23:18 - 01:28:30:00
Kyle
could see that. You know, like, fast forward 30 years, you know, you're you're the legend. It's like, you know, you, Brendan, you. Have you met Brendan?

01:28:31:00 - 01:28:36:20
DJ
Yeah.

01:28:38:26 - 01:29:11:28
Kyle
It's rad to think about, just how things can change with time and how you're. You really? Yeah. You're I don't know, you're you're imprinting your name. And in the history of climbing in this area, and that's it's pretty fucking sick. It's really cool. Last question for you guys. Before, you know, we talk about, the film and kind of how people can check it out and when the release date is, so first one, Brendan, what advice do you have for an aspiring developer, someone who's listened to your story super inspired by the process of development?

01:29:12:00 - 01:29:12:24
Kyle
What's some

01:29:15:23 - 01:29:43:11
Brendan
Traveling or. You don't have to find something right around where you live. Like this is 6.5 hours for me. And look at what I look at. What we, I guess, have done look with with the right commitment, you can find something with the. It takes so much effort. No one understands this. The closest person that understands is DJ.

01:29:43:14 - 01:30:09:00
Brendan
No one else can understand the amount of hours that that it takes to actually dedicate yourself to something like this. It's not that I go on trips every single weekend, it's that I prepare myself to do it. The best way I can in the time that I do have. And like, there's never it's not that I have a schedule when I go up there, but I am on my own schedule of there's usually not any downtime.

01:30:09:00 - 01:30:28:25
Brendan
I'm always doing something, I'm always accomplishing something, and that's because I don't have the time to do it. So to anybody out there that wants to develop like you, can you, you got rock within six hours, you can do that on a weekend. It's it's not that hard. You just have to be committed to it.

01:30:28:25 - 01:30:48:00
Kyle
an element that I've learned a lot recently is that, like the people who are successful turn the things they do into a lifestyle and not just like a, a fad. It's not like a thing that eventually expires. It's like you. It's a lifestyle. It's how you want to live your life. And if you can, you know, spend your time doing that with the passion.

01:30:48:00 - 01:30:49:06
Kyle
And that's what is going to

01:30:50:21 - 01:30:54:26
Brendan
You'll find out really quickly if you like development or not.

01:30:54:28 - 01:30:57:21
DJ
Like. Yeah.

01:30:57:21 - 01:31:20:14
Kyle
about you? Someone who sees the film, has been talking about, you know, putting together a short film about some local crusher or has, you know, jumped, you know, gotten behind the camera and been inspired. And, what advice do you have for someone that is is kind of like, ready and inspired to be creating climate content, long, long form content.

01:31:20:22 - 01:31:25:02
DJ
Yeah.

01:31:25:04 - 01:31:48:12
DJ
Yeah. I'd say a big one is like, just be prepared to fail a lot. Like a lot like climbing. Like it's it's all about that one little like saying that like a tiny success that you can build on and then like just constantly shoot a lot of things, like film, a lot of stuff. So a lot of stuff don't try and, like, mimic someone else's style.

01:31:48:14 - 01:32:14:29
DJ
Like, like I think, like imitation is better than, like just blatant, like copying, like use like use other things that you've seen as like, really like influences or things that you might like, but you have to kind of find your own style. And that took me a long time, especially with like selling stuff outside because like, I, I used to keep filming and climbing extremely separate and like only brought them together, like really started bringing them together for this project.

01:32:15:02 - 01:32:30:28
DJ
So I think like finding your own style and once you're comfortable with that, like everyone's got a great story to tell. Like you, every one of us probably has a dope friend that's like, yo, I really want to tell that story. I really want to, like, watch you crush this route or like, you just got in the climbing.

01:32:30:28 - 01:32:53:04
DJ
Like, let's document your progress as you go. Like, get to know the people that are around you. Like somebody has got a cool story to tell. And it's up to you to tell that story. Like, who else is going to tell that story about you if you've if you've got, the the gear for it, if you've got the desire and you want to tell a story like I go for it, there's nothing to prevent you from trying to do it.

01:32:53:07 - 01:33:11:19
DJ
I think gear doesn't fucking matter. I think most of us in the world know that. Like that. That doesn't matter. Like use what you're comfortable with, use what you have available to you like. And it should be more fun than not. If you if you're not having fun doing it, like either take a break or, I don't know, figure out something.

01:33:11:19 - 01:33:15:03
DJ
But it should be fun. You you'll know if you love it or not.

01:33:15:03 - 01:33:16:19
Kyle
yeah.

01:33:16:22 - 01:33:17:12
Kyle
What about the film?

01:33:17:12 - 01:33:21:29
Kyle
Do you see it being on any, like, streaming platforms, or is it going to be on like, Vimeo?

01:33:22:13 - 01:33:43:29
DJ
It'll be like on demand on like Vimeo or YouTube. I doubt it, like streaming platforms like that mean like they would have to purchase it like get distribution like, and it would, it would have to be like an offensive amount of money for me to sell it like, like I know I don't want to turn over all that footage and turn over all those rights and just, like, lose all, all like proprietary shit with the film.

01:33:43:29 - 01:33:47:09
DJ
No. Would it would have to be an offensive amount of money?

01:33:47:09 - 01:33:48:20
Kyle
I like that.

01:33:48:20 - 01:33:56:24
Kyle
What about your guys's yourselves? If people listen to this and they want to follow your story, where can they learn more about you? How can they follow your story?

01:33:58:09 - 01:34:27:29
Brendan
Instagram at Brendan bars. Brendan bar Rs and that's pretty much, Instagram. I post nooks and nooks only content, pretty much. And I don't share my personal life on social media, and I don't ever really want to. If it wasn't for the next, I probably wouldn't be on social media. But, I'm very passionate about talking to the nuts on their,

01:34:28:01 - 01:34:35:03
DJ
Yeah, my stuff's mostly on Instagram. There's a there's a few YouTube things, but it's mostly just Brendan in the nooks on YouTube.

01:34:35:29 - 01:34:40:10
DJ
Where. Yeah, I'm just add DJ weirdness on Instagram.

01:34:40:12 - 01:34:42:01
DJ
Yeah.

01:34:42:01 - 01:34:56:22
Kyle
people can check it out. But, man I appreciate sitting down with you guys. You know, it's been kind of, kind of logistically back and forth a bit, but, super stoked to be sitting down and to capture your story and to revisit, this project you guys have been working on for so long.

01:34:56:22 - 01:35:13:22
Kyle
It's been, really cool to follow the story and to kind of see it all come, to this kind of pinhead of, recognition in a way, with this film and everything. So I'm psyched for the community to, to continue to learn more about this place. And, yeah, I can't wait to, to continue to follow the

01:35:15:19 - 01:35:25:22
Brendan
Yeah, I appreciate it. Kyle. Thank you for having us on to talk about this and to share our story and the next story. And it's it's really awesome.

01:35:25:25 - 01:35:30:04
DJ
You got to come out, dude. There's some chat up there. There's some dope shroud up there.

01:35:30:04 - 01:35:35:25
Kyle
my girlfriend's from, Michigan. She's from, like, just outside of Detroit. The charter township.

01:35:36:07 - 01:35:39:24
Brendan
Dude that's so close. Oh, that's a super good excuse for you.

01:35:39:24 - 01:35:44:25
DJ
Yeah, that's like it. I think it's even. Yeah. Like that's like. Yeah. That's like a 5 or 6 hour drive.

01:35:44:25 - 01:35:47:10
DJ
Then from there.

01:35:47:12 - 01:35:49:05
DJ
Yeah. From Detroit outside of Detroit.

01:35:49:05 - 01:35:53:27
Brendan
Not true. It's still six and a half from Detroit I think outside of it. Oh well if you. Yeah.

01:35:53:28 - 01:35:54:23
DJ
It's only two.

01:35:54:23 - 01:36:00:04
DJ
Hours, Kyle. You'll have to come.

01:36:00:06 - 01:36:03:27
Brendan
Oh you then you are like five hours from the next. Yeah.

01:36:03:29 - 01:36:09:16
DJ
Yeah.

01:36:09:19 - 01:36:14:28
DJ
The U.P. like the Upper Peninsula. Yeah.

01:36:15:01 - 01:36:17:14
Brendan
Yeah. That's up north. Yes.

01:36:17:16 - 01:36:19:09
DJ
Yeah.

01:36:19:09 - 01:36:26:04
Kyle
I mean, yeah, all, there is a large chance that I will find myself in that area before I leave this earth.

01:36:26:16 - 01:36:26:25
DJ
Yes.

01:36:26:25 - 01:36:31:02
Brendan
Yeah, that'd be cool. Reach out. If you ever do that. That would be something.

01:36:31:04 - 01:36:34:04
DJ
Yeah.

01:36:34:07 - 01:36:38:22
DJ
We'll definitely make sure one of us is out there, even though we're. We're usually up there anyway.

01:36:38:25 - 01:36:39:18
DJ
Yeah.

01:36:39:18 - 01:36:57:18
Kyle
That's it for today's episode, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you like today's episode, please head on over to Spotify or Apple Podcasts to give this show five stars. This simple gesture is significant helps this community grow. Also, don't forget to check out TJ's film The Developer. You can find the link in our show notes.

01:36:57:20 - 01:37:15:09
Kyle
The first 50 listeners to use code TK m20 will get 20% off. Stay tuned for our next guest, Zion Local Crusher Connor Batey. Until then, stay safe, have fun. And as always, thanks for being a part of the climbing majority. I'll see you on two weeks.