105 | The Performance Paradox: Redefining Success in Climbing and Life w/ AMGA Guide Kevin Heinrich

In his earlier years, Kevin dedicated his life to the craft of climbing. He lived in a van, chased adventure across the globe, and devoted every ounce of his energy to the pursuit of performance. During that chapter, he climbed up to 5.13b, established several major first ascents, and ticked over fifteen hundred routes. Climbing wasn’t just something Kevin did — it was who he was. His identity was built around his achievements, his grades, and his ever-growing tick list… until one day, everything changed. After successfully rope-soloing Freerider on El Cap, a dream that would represent the pinnacle of accomplishment for many, Kevin found himself not elated — but empty. Confused. Frustrated. Wondering what it all meant. That moment became a turning point — a quiet reckoning that forced him to question why he climbed in the first place. It was from that reflection that a new path emerged. Today, Kevin is an AMGA-Certified Rock Guide and co-owner of Vertical Pursuits, a guiding service based out of Lake Tahoe. His focus has shifted from personal performance to mentorship — helping everyday climbers build competence, confidence, and a deeper connection with the craft.

In our conversation, we use Kevin’s climbing stories as a framework to explore some of climbing’s bigger questions. We start with his rope-solo ascent of Freerider — and how that experience reshaped his identity. Then, we dig into a story from his time climbing with Brad Gobright, using it to dissect the psychology of risk management. From there, we travel back into Kevin’s dirtbag years  and get to hear several increidble stories.  A bear encounter in the Wind River Range. A remote big-wall first ascent in the wilds of British Columbia. And his time on the iconic Andean peak Alpamayo. We wrap up by exploring Kevin’s guiding philosophy — how he sees mentorship as one of the most underutilized tools in modern climbing, and how professional instruction can change the way we learn, grow, and stay alive in the mountains.

This conversation is full of honesty, vulnerability, and hard-won wisdom. I walked away from it reflecting on my own relationship with climbing, and I think you might too.

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Resources

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 3:40 Climbing Chit Chat
• 10:19 Rope Soloing The Free Rider
• 31:34 Redefining An Identity
• 1:00:04 Climbing With Brad Gobright
• 1:12:06 Risk Management
• 1:48:43 A Bear Scare
• 1:59:47 Remote Big Wall First Ascent
• 2:08:29 Alpamayo
• 2:16:20 Guiding Philosophies

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:24
Kyle
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.

00:00:09:26 - 00:00:14:17
Kyle
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.

00:00:15:29 - 00:00:45:01
Kyle
This show is brought to you by lives in designs. That's lives. And guys, I cannot get enough of this brand. Ask anybody. They make the best apparel for the life of a climber. Comfortable, flexible, durable, all with an undeniable sense of outdoor fashion. Plus, he lives and has a wide variety of killer color options. Whether you want to stand out in the caramel yellow or keep a low profile with their dusk blue, most importantly lives and makes clothes that you can live in and climb in every single day.

00:00:45:06 - 00:01:03:14
Kyle
As an added bonus, Lives In is making their clothes with recycled ocean waste, which I think is pretty cool. And there's a 30 day money back guarantee so you can buy it. Try it, and if you still don't like it, you will get your money back. Right now you can get 15% off ET lives in by using the link in the description below and using code TKM 15 at checkout.

00:01:03:16 - 00:01:09:04
Kyle
That's the link in the description below, and TCM 15 for 15% off at checkout.

00:01:09:04 - 00:01:31:07
Speaker 1
Today I sit down with Kevin Heinrich. In his earlier years. Kevin dedicated his life to the craft of climbing. He lived in a van, chased adventure across the globe, and devoted every ounce of his energy to the pursuit of performance. During that chapter, he climbed up to 13 B, established several major first ascents, and ticked over 1500 routes.

00:01:31:09 - 00:01:57:04
Speaker 1
Climbing wasn't just something Kevin did. It was who he was. His identity was built around his achievements, his grades, and his ever growing tick list. Until one day, everything changed. After successfully rope soloing Free Rider on El Cap, a dream that would represent the pinnacle of accomplishment for many, Kevin found himself not elated, but empty, confused, frustrated, wondering what it all meant.

00:01:57:06 - 00:02:24:07
Speaker 1
That moment became a turning point. A quiet reckoning that forced him to question why he climbed in the first place. It was from that reflection that a new path emerged. Today, Kevin is an Amber certified rock guide and co-owner of Vertical Pursuits, a guiding service based out of Lake Tahoe. His focus has shifted from personal performance to mentorship, helping everyday climbers build competence, confidence and a deeper connection with the craft.

00:02:24:10 - 00:02:59:02
Speaker 1
In our conversation, we use Kevin's climbing stories as a framework to explore some of climbing bigger questions. We start with his rope solo ascent of Free Rider and how that experience reshaped his identity. We then dig into his story from his time climbing with Brad Go Bright, using it to dissect the psychology of risk management. From there, we travel back into Kevin's Dirtbag years and get to hear several incredible stories a bear encounter in the wind River range, a remote big wall first ascent in the wilds of British Columbia, and his time on the iconic Indian peak Alpine bio.

00:02:59:04 - 00:03:24:01
Speaker 1
We wrap up this conversation by exploring Kevin's guiding philosophy, how he sees mentorship as one of the most underutilized tools in modern climbing, and how professional instruction can change the way we learn, grow, and stay alive in the mountains. This conversation is full of honesty, vulnerability, and hard won wisdom. I walked away from it, reflecting on my own relationship with climbing, and I think you might too.

00:03:24:03 - 00:03:27:27
Speaker 1
So without further ado, I bring you Kevin Heinrich.

00:03:39:16 - 00:03:40:03
Kevin
we were an.

00:03:40:03 - 00:03:41:10
Kevin
Index.

00:03:41:10 - 00:03:42:01
Kevin
I don't know if you've climbed.

00:03:42:01 - 00:03:45:27
Kevin
There, but that. Oh, my God, it's so good. Yeah.

00:03:46:02 - 00:03:47:09
Kyle
Which state is it in again?

00:03:47:12 - 00:03:50:27
Kevin
It's in Washington. So it's like a couple hours east of Seattle.

00:03:51:02 - 00:03:53:16
Kyle
Is this, like basalt column nation kind of vibe?

00:03:53:19 - 00:03:55:15
Kevin
No, it's, it's granite.

00:03:55:15 - 00:04:05:04
Kevin
It's like a super compact granite, best granite crag in the country, they would say. And then, like, it's famous for being, like, super sandbagged.

00:04:05:04 - 00:04:08:27
Kevin
Which they're, like, really proud of. And to me, it's just like, yeah, you're.

00:04:08:27 - 00:04:10:00
Kevin
Just grating wrong.

00:04:10:00 - 00:04:13:08
Kevin
Like, what's there to be proud of? You know, it's just like,

00:04:13:08 - 00:04:17:08
Kyle
like Joshua Tree and talk eats? Or is it just, like, notoriously modern day sandbagged?

00:04:17:08 - 00:04:31:28
Kevin
It's modern day sandbag. So like, I get on at 12 B and like, I'll, I like work at multiple sessions and can't do moves when you know I've onsite it, you know, 12 b handily many times you know. So it's just kind of like it's just kind of wrong.

00:04:32:00 - 00:04:34:24
Kevin
But I don't know in a way I like it because it just.

00:04:34:24 - 00:04:37:19
Kevin
De-emphasized is the importance of grades, you know.

00:04:37:25 - 00:04:39:03
Kevin
And and if it's not.

00:04:39:03 - 00:04:39:28
Kevin
Getting people.

00:04:40:04 - 00:04:43:06
Kevin
Hurt, which, you know, I feel like grades originally.

00:04:43:06 - 00:04:46:04
Kevin
That was kind of the beautiful idea of them was like.

00:04:46:07 - 00:04:47:29
Kevin
Oh, it helps you stay safe by picking.

00:04:47:29 - 00:04:51:02
Kevin
The appropriate challenge, you know? And and now.

00:04:51:03 - 00:04:53:03
Kevin
I don't know, is that really what grades do.

00:04:53:03 - 00:04:53:26
Kevin
For us now? I'm not.

00:04:53:26 - 00:04:54:19
Kevin
Sure.

00:04:54:19 - 00:04:57:29
Kevin
You know, I feel like nowadays we use the grade for more nefarious.

00:04:57:29 - 00:05:01:25
Kevin
Purposes or I don't know, I don't know. Oh yeah. Yeah.

00:05:01:25 - 00:05:18:18
Kyle
so I posted a comment or a post about rostrum recently and I was like you know the crack is so good. Like you can place and take anywhere. Just go for it. And, and somebody commented like, oh well you told people on AP that you should wait and practice chimneys before you get on epinephrine, but we should just all go for rostrum.

00:05:18:20 - 00:05:42:01
Kyle
And I'm like, you're missing the point here. It's like, what I'm saying is that yes, it's 11 C, but you can place and take anywhere. So therefore it's safe. And so you should go for it. Like not all 11 cars have a splitter crack running up the entire route for 800ft. And you might run into positions where you can have really bad gear or no gear at all, and you're forced through a run out section that you have to be prepared for.

00:05:42:03 - 00:05:46:18
Kyle
And those are the kind of situations where, if you're unprepared for, you can get yourself in a pretty fucked up situation

00:05:47:11 - 00:05:49:14
Kevin
Oh, for sure. Yeah, I always like.

00:05:49:14 - 00:06:00:00
Kevin
We teach more, like, advanced trad courses and stuff. And we're getting people to break through that whole gear fear and just, like, be like, look, look at this climb. The crack goes from the bottom to the top. Doesn't matter what the great is. Do you have enough gear?

00:06:00:03 - 00:06:03:06
Kevin
Then you're only going to get yourself into trouble.

00:06:03:08 - 00:06:09:12
Kevin
If you do some really dumb stuff. You know, assuming they can place good gear. And that's kind of a prerequisite for that. But it's like.

00:06:09:14 - 00:06:10:22
Kevin
You would only get yourself.

00:06:10:22 - 00:06:15:16
Kevin
Into trouble if you climbed up into us, and you were a little bit shaky and you decided, I'm going to.

00:06:15:16 - 00:06:18:03
Kevin
Keep punching it until I find a rest. You know, that's the only way.

00:06:18:03 - 00:06:18:16
Kevin
You're going to hurt.

00:06:18:16 - 00:06:20:17
Kevin
Yourself there. But at any point you can.

00:06:20:17 - 00:06:26:06
Kevin
Stick a piece in and and and take or whatever. But yeah. And then I have to emphasize, you know, like just.

00:06:26:06 - 00:06:27:11
Kevin
Because.

00:06:27:13 - 00:06:35:23
Kevin
We did this on this one pitch doesn't mean every pitch is like that, right? It's like you kind of got it. Assess the climb and, and, yeah. I mean, right, like what?

00:06:35:25 - 00:06:38:27
Kevin
You know, what they call 513 cracks a.

00:06:38:29 - 00:06:40:10
Kevin
You know, C one, right.

00:06:40:10 - 00:06:45:00
Kevin
It's like super easy. You know, it's like the easiest hang dodging ever.

00:06:45:03 - 00:06:55:21
Kevin
So, well, they can be or they can be really hard. So, but yeah, congrats on the roster. I mean, that's a pretty sweet, sweet, sweet climb to get back.

00:06:55:21 - 00:06:57:08
Kevin
Yeah.

00:06:57:08 - 00:07:16:22
Kyle
and way harder than I expected. Like I did Voyager and Voyager. Both my partner and I just like felt like we crossed it were just like I won I one fell on the 11 C boulder problem. I think PP4 before, like, I just, I couldn't get my feet up high enough before going for the jog, and so I whiffed.

00:07:16:24 - 00:07:23:04
Kyle
But then I got a second try, and then we sent the rest of the air out clean. And so we're like, dude, rossum's next. Like, we got it, and we get a rostrum and we

00:07:23:04 - 00:07:29:00
Kevin
Oh it's such it. Yeah. I remember getting on Voyager.

00:07:29:00 - 00:07:39:03
Kevin
And that was a while ago now. And like I was, I was kind of talking down on it because I was like oh the pitches are shorter and the, you know, the, you know, I was kind of wanting like a more of this.

00:07:39:05 - 00:07:39:18
Kevin
Fight.

00:07:39:18 - 00:07:47:09
Kevin
Like this old school kind of fight, like long pitches. And, but now Voyager is great and the roster is great, but yeah, totally different. Different animals.

00:07:47:11 - 00:07:51:21
Kevin
Yeah.

00:07:51:23 - 00:07:54:00
Kevin
Yeah, totally. I think I've actually fallen.

00:07:54:00 - 00:08:01:22
Kevin
On that picture when I fall, fallen on one of the early pitches where I was just like, not focused and just fell. I was having a bad day that.

00:08:01:22 - 00:08:04:20
Kevin
Day for sure.

00:08:04:20 - 00:08:22:12
Kyle
track with picking the wrong side to put my back on chimneys like when I, when I started epinephrine, when I first climbed it, I picked, I picked the wrong side. And since then I've learned. Okay, like, if, you know, if a chimney is slanted in a way, put your feet on the slab side and put your, your back on the

00:08:23:06 - 00:08:25:00
Kevin
Yeah. Dude, you're teaching me, man.

00:08:25:00 - 00:08:25:06
Kevin
yeah.

00:08:25:06 - 00:08:26:27
Kevin
I get it wrong so often.

00:08:26:27 - 00:08:28:05
Kevin
Yeah.

00:08:28:05 - 00:08:37:21
Kyle
rostrum. So I put my feet on the slab side and my back on the overhanging side. And it was great until I got to the top. But then at the top, all the jugs to get out of the chimney are on the other side.

00:08:38:13 - 00:08:39:29
Kevin
Yeah, yeah.

00:08:39:29 - 00:08:43:19
Kyle
with no pro to like get out of this chimney. I'm like, I fucking chose

00:08:44:13 - 00:08:46:00
Kevin
Oh, man. Yeah, I know.

00:08:46:00 - 00:08:46:28
Kevin
I like there.

00:08:46:28 - 00:08:50:27
Kevin
Was an era for me where I constantly did the wrong way. And, you know.

00:08:50:27 - 00:08:58:16
Kevin
And it's just like, I'm like, I know the theory, but, like, why does it never work, you know? Yeah. Sweet. Well that's great.

00:08:58:16 - 00:09:01:08
Kevin
Yeah. I might have some valley time coming up in October and.

00:09:01:10 - 00:09:03:21
Kevin
Looking forward to it for sure. Yeah.

00:09:03:21 - 00:09:20:04
Kyle
go for Nye out in October. We just did have to wait a day in June. He my partner done, the nose over for days with a partner. And so I'm like, I'd be willing to kind of an eye out with you, you know, if if that's a thing. But after the rostrum, we both kind of had a reality check.

00:09:20:04 - 00:09:32:13
Kyle
Or just, like, I think we need to, I think we need to prepare a little bit more. So we're going to push it back. We'll do like a nose push together as a partnership, in the spring and then go for it in the fall.

00:09:32:13 - 00:09:35:22
Kevin
Nice. Yeah. That's. That sounds great. Yeah.

00:09:35:22 - 00:09:38:07
Kyle
And that way I'll get to actually experience a little bit.

00:09:38:20 - 00:09:40:25
Kevin
Yeah. And you wanted. You don't want. And I.

00:09:40:25 - 00:09:41:08
Kevin
Add in like.

00:09:41:08 - 00:09:42:12
Kevin
23 hours.

00:09:42:12 - 00:09:43:07
Kevin
You want to do.

00:09:43:07 - 00:09:47:01
Kevin
It like that's, I think not fun.

00:09:47:04 - 00:09:51:15
Kevin
I mean, it's fun in its own way, but it's like it's not fun. It's like maybe taking a lot more.

00:09:51:15 - 00:09:54:17
Kevin
Risk debatably, you know, if you're getting that tired, like.

00:09:54:19 - 00:09:56:19
Kevin
Yeah, if you're pushing, you know, 20.

00:09:56:25 - 00:10:00:24
Kevin
Six hours and you know, like, yeah, that's

00:10:00:24 - 00:10:04:15
Kyle
I think there's a quote says efficiency is enjoyment

00:10:06:13 - 00:10:13:26
Kyle
for I firmly stand behind that. It's like if you're not having an efficient day and you're just like struggling to move like this, just it's a

00:10:14:15 - 00:10:18:21
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. That's sick. The great goal.

00:10:18:21 - 00:10:27:28
Kyle
Nice man. Thank you. The added honestly, I, you know, I, you know, I wanted to really open this conversation about, you know, identity and

00:10:28:27 - 00:10:30:11
Kevin
Cool.

00:10:30:11 - 00:10:38:10
Kyle
here, I've got, I've got a lot of topics I want to talk about, and I have a lot of them. And I want to preface with

00:10:38:10 - 00:10:41:12
Kevin
Sure.

00:10:41:12 - 00:10:43:13
Kyle
want to dive into is about your experience. Rob

00:10:47:03 - 00:10:56:16
Kyle
you know, this conversation with that story. And then we can dive into kind of like what it meant for you and how it changed your philosophy and identity surrounding climbing.

00:10:56:18 - 00:11:04:03
Kyle
So, yeah, like, talk to me about your experience. Rob Soling, the free rider on El Cap and, like, walk me through kind of that play by play story.

00:11:04:10 - 00:11:22:28
Kevin
Yeah, man. Damn. I just got, like, the chills even thinking about it, you know? Or, like, having to, like, speak with authority on this, because, really, I'm still, like, processing what I, not what I went through, you know, like, it was, like, traumatic, really, but just like how I feel about what happened. What happened with me up there?

00:11:22:28 - 00:11:27:24
Kevin
You know, and I think certain days I have different perspectives on it and,

00:11:27:27 - 00:11:28:27
Kevin
Yeah.

00:11:28:27 - 00:11:37:17
Kyle
digesting kind of your, your reflections posts and like, what was it like going into that objective? What was it like choosing that objective and walk me through that experience on the wall?

00:11:37:20 - 00:11:38:22
Kevin
Man. So I.

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:39:27
Kevin
Definitely did not.

00:11:39:27 - 00:11:40:19
Kevin
Put.

00:11:40:22 - 00:11:49:18
Kevin
That much thought into it, to be honest. I've done I've done a lot of rope soloing. And that was the form of climbing I really enjoyed. And,

00:11:49:20 - 00:11:51:06
Kevin
You know, I feel like I've.

00:11:51:06 - 00:11:53:10
Kevin
Heard free climbing. El cap is like this big.

00:11:53:10 - 00:11:55:05
Kevin
Goal for a lot of climbers. And to be.

00:11:55:05 - 00:11:58:01
Kevin
Perfectly honest, it wasn't really for me. I.

00:11:58:04 - 00:12:00:06
Kevin
I never honestly, at the beginning of.

00:12:00:06 - 00:12:08:27
Kevin
That year, I never even thought I would like or maybe the year before. I'm bad with dates, but like that that would be on the table for me and all of a sudden kind of it.

00:12:08:27 - 00:12:10:00
Kevin
Was.

00:12:10:02 - 00:12:22:10
Kevin
And but, you know, it was it was never like something I dreamed about or like, you know, for, for years and years, it was just kind of like, oh, I could maybe do that. And I,

00:12:22:13 - 00:12:23:25
Kevin
You know, I put some work into the route.

00:12:23:25 - 00:12:37:11
Kevin
I went up, with a buddy and, like, poorly planned and, like, in the dark, tried the boulder problem and, you know, couldn't even imagine climbing it, you know, and then that season, I think I wrapped in.

00:12:37:11 - 00:12:39:03
Kevin
Twice, I think I did two.

00:12:39:03 - 00:12:52:26
Kevin
Sessions, on my crutches, which were the Boulder problem, the Enduro corner, and then the monster, and I, I didn't send any of those.

00:12:52:28 - 00:12:53:13
Kevin
Maybe I.

00:12:53:13 - 00:12:55:10
Kevin
Sent the enduro corner, but I didn't send the.

00:12:55:10 - 00:12:56:13
Kevin
Boulder problem or.

00:12:56:13 - 00:13:02:16
Kevin
The or the monster, to be honest, because you just kind of have to want it. And when you're just working it, you're like, don't really want it that bad.

00:13:04:19 - 00:13:14:18
Kevin
And yeah. And then for some reason, I thought rope selling it sounded like, like, oh, I haven't really sent the crux or anything, but let me just, you know, it seems reasonable.

00:13:14:18 - 00:13:19:23
Kevin
To rope solo it, which it totally like in hindsight is so ridiculous.

00:13:19:25 - 00:13:21:08
Kevin
And,

00:13:21:10 - 00:13:23:10
Kevin
Yeah. And it just plays a little bit.

00:13:23:10 - 00:13:37:07
Kevin
To, you know, I'm, I'm an introvert for sure. And like, you know, I could have found a partner for, you know, there's tons of people that want to, like, get rope, kind up the free rider. So I could have found someone to climb it with. But I was just like, you know, I.

00:13:37:07 - 00:13:40:27
Kevin
Think I basically I got to the point where was like, even though I hadn't sent.

00:13:40:27 - 00:13:58:20
Kevin
Anything. Well, I'd sent stuff, but I was like, I know I can probably do this. And so it's like, well, should I just check the box? Or I could try rope selling it, and now I have no clue if I can do this or not. You know, suddenly it's like, you know, lots of question marks, lots to figure out.

00:13:58:23 - 00:14:00:21
Kevin
And,

00:14:00:23 - 00:14:02:29
Kevin
Yeah.

00:14:03:01 - 00:14:08:02
Kevin
Decided to, you know, just kind of broke the route down and just kind of made sense. You know, it's like.

00:14:08:04 - 00:14:09:06
Kevin
I mean, really, you look at the free.

00:14:09:06 - 00:14:24:07
Kevin
Rider, there's like a few hard pitches, and the rest is, you know, there's not even that many five, 11 pitches, to be honest. I don't know all the numbers. And I mean, I had no I have notes on every single pitch of that climb. You know, I'd really, like, put the work in.

00:14:24:07 - 00:14:28:02
Kyle
I mean, that was something that surprised me with the nos. Two. Is. Is how many moderate pitches there were.

00:14:28:02 - 00:14:29:06
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah.

00:14:29:06 - 00:14:41:24
Kevin
For sure. And, and you know, I when I teach big. Well I tell people that it's like, you know, it's, it's a lot of 510 and under. But you have to factor in that you don't climb five. If you climb 510 at the crag, you don't climb 510 on the nose. You know, it's.

00:14:41:24 - 00:14:42:25
Kevin
Like you're so.

00:14:42:25 - 00:15:02:13
Kevin
Bogged down, like physically and psychologically. But, but yeah, somehow I convinced myself it was a reasonable idea to to give it a try and, and, and. Yeah, it was in hindsight, you know, really audacious. Kind of the longer that goes by, this was something like.

00:15:02:13 - 00:15:05:23
Kevin
Four years ago now I don't remember exactly, but.

00:15:05:25 - 00:15:14:29
Kevin
The more times it goes by, the more I realize that that's kind of audacious. You know, like I met a brand bargain who, you know, runs avant Climbing Solutions now.

00:15:14:29 - 00:15:17:20
Kevin
I think it's called the rope solo gadgets.

00:15:17:22 - 00:15:27:10
Kevin
In the valley then. And he rope old father time that season, which is super gangster. And we chatted, like, briefly in the Valley. But, you know, I found out.

00:15:27:10 - 00:15:27:26
Kevin
Later, like.

00:15:28:03 - 00:15:46:20
Kevin
And this is kind of obvious, but he had climbed father time before, and so then he was just going back to rope solo it. And, you know, for me, I was on sighting a lot of pitches up there. And even when I was towards the top of the route, I had people, you know, five, 13 plus trad climbers wrapping in to work out the exit pitches.

00:15:46:23 - 00:15:50:07
Kevin
I'd never even been on the exit pitches, you know, and.

00:15:50:09 - 00:15:52:24
Kevin
It's like, yeah, yeah. And that's that's all to say.

00:15:52:24 - 00:15:55:19
Kevin
That, you know, I probably could have.

00:15:55:21 - 00:15:57:06
Kevin
I, I bit off a.

00:15:57:06 - 00:16:02:19
Kevin
Lot for that, for me, for where I was at, you know, I, I climbed a handful of 513 at that point.

00:16:02:19 - 00:16:04:10
Kevin
But

00:16:04:10 - 00:16:07:27
Kyle
Yeah. Kind of. Where. Where were you as a climber when you chose as objective?

00:16:08:05 - 00:16:12:02
Kevin
Yeah. So like, like I said, you know.

00:16:12:04 - 00:16:16:14
Kevin
A year previous, I kind of would it was never on my radar. I was like, I maybe.

00:16:16:14 - 00:16:18:15
Kevin
Climbed a 512 on gear, you know.

00:16:18:15 - 00:16:21:15
Kevin
And I was kind of I was an on site climber, you know, like.

00:16:21:18 - 00:16:22:23
Kevin
I sure I like, fell.

00:16:22:23 - 00:16:26:29
Kevin
Sometimes, but I would only really get on stuff to try and on site and,

00:16:27:01 - 00:16:28:08
Kevin
Took that, took that pretty.

00:16:28:08 - 00:16:48:10
Kevin
Far, you know, took that into five, 12 and then, Covid, I was living in my van and, Covid was a time where I just, like, kind of dug in. I was out climbing and and I dug in and to to project Ng and climb my first, you know, 12 B and 12 C in 12 D and 13 A, and then handful of 13 A's.

00:16:48:12 - 00:16:49:28
Kevin
And

00:16:50:01 - 00:16:50:23
Kevin
So yeah, so.

00:16:50:23 - 00:16:58:19
Kevin
I climbed, I don't know, maybe four or something, five through teens at that point. Something like that. One 113.

00:16:58:19 - 00:17:03:08
Kevin
B but they all all to me and I don't know if this is just I was.

00:17:03:10 - 00:17:05:28
Kevin
Was what happens when you're feeling good and stuff's your style.

00:17:05:28 - 00:17:06:28
Kevin
But it all felt like.

00:17:06:28 - 00:17:09:16
Kevin
These are all not real. 513 you know, and and.

00:17:09:16 - 00:17:10:16
Kevin
I think a lot of people we.

00:17:10:16 - 00:17:17:14
Kevin
Have this imposter syndrome in climbing. You know, once we do something, we're like, it's not that hard, you know, like.

00:17:17:14 - 00:17:33:18
Kyle
I think the big thing is, if you feel that way, and then you make public that feeling, it almost becomes like this, like, it's not 513. You're, like, publicly downgrading it to make yourself look better. Like, if you feel like that and you keep it to yourself, then cool.

00:17:33:18 - 00:17:39:10
Kyle
Like, I totally understand that. But if you're like on Instagram and be like, yeah, it's not a 513, you're like, dude, you haven't even climbed

00:17:40:27 - 00:17:42:29
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah, totally. It can be.

00:17:42:29 - 00:17:44:19
Kevin
Self-aggrandizing in its own way.

00:17:44:19 - 00:17:49:08
Kevin
But also, I mean, yeah, I don't know, I feel like I see that a lot.

00:17:49:10 - 00:17:50:08
Kevin
In myself.

00:17:50:08 - 00:17:51:15
Kevin
Especially where you.

00:17:51:15 - 00:17:58:03
Kevin
Accomplish something and then you're like, well, I did it. So it can't be like, it can't be that hard. And it's like, no, come on, you've put work in like.

00:17:58:06 - 00:17:59:10
Kevin
That's what.

00:17:59:10 - 00:18:01:13
Kyle
to like, accept the fact that you've gotten

00:18:02:02 - 00:18:06:12
Kevin
Yeah, yeah. For sure. But yeah. Had and climb, you know, all those roots.

00:18:06:12 - 00:18:09:15
Kevin
Were on like limestone, you know, limestone sport.

00:18:09:22 - 00:18:10:06
Kevin
Sport.

00:18:10:06 - 00:18:35:03
Kevin
Roots and, yeah. I never was never a boulder. And obviously I did the boulder problem. And that people call it V7. I've never climbed V7, I've climbed like a V7 in a gym, I think, and I've, you know, maybe two v7 in a gym, but, yeah, just happened to be like really my style, like technical, very dancey, very not powerful.

00:18:35:03 - 00:18:35:22
Kevin
You know, it's.

00:18:35:22 - 00:18:36:03
Kevin
A boulder.

00:18:36:03 - 00:18:38:00
Kevin
Problem in the sense that it's not a whole lot of.

00:18:38:00 - 00:18:41:07
Kevin
Moves, but it's still I mean, it's still.

00:18:41:09 - 00:18:41:27
Kevin
I mean, it's.

00:18:41:27 - 00:18:43:25
Kevin
Not like it's just those that traverse, you see.

00:18:43:25 - 00:18:44:27
Kevin
The clips of that's hard.

00:18:44:27 - 00:18:45:11
Kevin
It's like it's.

00:18:45:11 - 00:18:54:26
Kevin
Hard from the the anchor the first couple days of the anchor pretty hard. But yeah, it really it really fit my style. And, once I finally.

00:18:54:26 - 00:18:56:04
Kevin
Got it to click.

00:18:56:09 - 00:18:57:17
Kevin
Which was on the rope.

00:18:57:17 - 00:18:59:21
Kevin
Solo, it felt like easy.

00:18:59:21 - 00:19:00:04
Kevin
You know.

00:19:00:05 - 00:19:01:08
Kevin
Which is how that technical.

00:19:01:08 - 00:19:08:16
Kevin
Climbing can be when you get it, you're just on your feet the right way and you have your self-possession. It's like, how could you, you know.

00:19:08:18 - 00:19:09:27
Kevin
Like I was like, I could.

00:19:10:01 - 00:19:11:00
Kevin
I would never so.

00:19:11:01 - 00:19:12:24
Kevin
Free solo it, obviously, but like.

00:19:12:27 - 00:19:15:14
Kevin
I'm like, I could kind of see that. Like when you have.

00:19:15:14 - 00:19:17:28
Kevin
It's like feels.

00:19:18:01 - 00:19:23:09
Kevin
You know, when and when I was first on it, it's like that's completely unfathomable, you know? And,

00:19:23:09 - 00:19:32:24
Kyle
was about to ask like I mean obviously we've all seen Free Solo. We watched Alex Honnold free solo. That exact section. And so I mean you just kind of answered my question is like yeah you could see that. You

00:19:33:13 - 00:19:39:08
Kevin
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, having put some time so I, so I wrote solo The Free.

00:19:39:08 - 00:19:53:04
Kevin
Rider and then I wasn't really all that happy with my performance on it, which I'm, I guess we'll get to. And then I came back like a week later and climbed it with some friends. And, so I had, you know, a handful of laps on it. And that time it also just like, I just.

00:19:53:04 - 00:19:54:10
Kevin
Like, floated.

00:19:54:12 - 00:19:58:28
Kevin
And, yeah, it seemed it's, I mean, it's insane, but it does.

00:19:59:00 - 00:20:00:09
Kevin
It does feel.

00:20:00:10 - 00:20:12:02
Kevin
When you have the body tension all right. And stuff. It does feel like, you know, and that's when, that's when grading gets really hard. Because if I was the first essentialist to that I'm like, is this five, you know, is this like ten plus.

00:20:12:02 - 00:20:13:02
Kevin
Or is it 513?

00:20:13:02 - 00:20:13:12
Kevin
You know.

00:20:13:12 - 00:20:18:11
Kevin
It's because it feels so when you've got it, it feels so good. But.

00:20:18:11 - 00:20:36:27
Kyle
of the, the consensuses we've come up with is like grading should almost be the onsite. That's the experience right. It's like it's not that's the one variable that's equal across everybody that comes across the climb. It's like yeah sure. Someone can spend 100 times trying this grade and making it feel as easy as possible.

00:20:37:04 - 00:20:46:09
Kyle
But the first attempt to get on that climb is like the most raw, the most universal experience you get. I feel like that's, I feel like the onsite grade should be almost

00:20:49:02 - 00:20:52:27
Kevin
Yeah. I feel like that. That makes sense. I mean, it just gets so muddy.

00:20:52:27 - 00:21:00:17
Kevin
And murky when you work something for a while, it's, like, just impossible to step back out and decide how hard that might be. And it's all.

00:21:00:19 - 00:21:01:13
Kevin
You know, it is.

00:21:01:13 - 00:21:02:27
Kevin
A nice insight into the.

00:21:02:27 - 00:21:05:25
Kevin
Into grades because they're just it's just.

00:21:05:25 - 00:21:09:14
Kevin
So subjective, you know, and and I've when people want to be.

00:21:09:14 - 00:21:17:07
Kevin
Like, well do you think that's really 12 B. Don't you think it's a bit it's like I don't care. You know, it's like it's so there's so much wiggle room.

00:21:17:13 - 00:21:19:10
Kevin
I've climbed, you know.

00:21:19:12 - 00:21:20:11
Kevin
Five elevens that feel.

00:21:20:11 - 00:21:23:13
Kevin
Harder and, you know, 515 that feel easier. And it's.

00:21:23:13 - 00:21:25:10
Kevin
Like it's just.

00:21:25:13 - 00:21:37:25
Kevin
It's just an idea. And, yeah, I think the less we can, I don't know, the less we can focus on that, the better. Although that it's addicting. You know, it's it's there. It's right there. It's that number.

00:21:37:27 - 00:21:40:03
Kevin
And it tells you everything you need to know about yourself as.

00:21:40:03 - 00:21:41:13
Kevin
A climber. You know, not really, but.

00:21:41:14 - 00:21:42:28
Kevin
It can feel like that, right?

00:21:42:28 - 00:21:43:27
Kevin
It's like

00:21:44:02 - 00:21:53:20
Kyle
I would say it's probably like the, the, the the more you climb the more you realize grades don't matter and the less you've climbed the more they matter. Do would you agree with that statement.

00:21:55:03 - 00:21:59:10
Kevin
The more you climb, maybe. Yeah. I think if you, the more you climb in, the more.

00:21:59:10 - 00:22:16:22
Kevin
Diversity you get in your climbing, you know, the more you just get shit on, you know, here and there. You get on. Yeah. A wide climb in the valley and you know it. It messes with you. I think if you stick to if you're like a limestone sport climber, you know, I don't know if I feel like maybe you could get, you know, feel really consistent.

00:22:16:22 - 00:22:23:17
Kevin
But then even their, their styles, there's the techie style there, like, you know, the overhanging style,

00:22:24:01 - 00:22:31:18
Kyle
But back to back to free rider. So one thing I read on your report, it said that every top rope gave you mental anguish.

00:22:32:15 - 00:22:35:11
Kevin
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Totally.

00:22:35:11 - 00:22:46:21
Kyle
that you kind of held yourself accountable for on this and how how that kind of like mentality carried to how you felt at the top and how that ultimately obviously brought us to kind of your

00:22:47:08 - 00:22:51:23
Kevin
Yeah, yeah, you might help me figure this all out, and it's going to be great.

00:22:51:25 - 00:22:55:24
Kevin
Yeah. So, like, so for some reason, I.

00:22:55:24 - 00:22:57:08
Kevin
Expected myself to do.

00:22:57:08 - 00:22:58:16
Kevin
This flawlessly.

00:22:58:18 - 00:23:09:02
Kevin
You know, I hadn't climbed a lot of the pitches. I hadn't even sent the crocs. And I was expecting myself to, you know, send every pitch on lead, you know?

00:23:09:05 - 00:23:14:23
Kevin
And so the first my first day. So I climbed the free blast.

00:23:14:28 - 00:23:33:05
Kevin
In a day, and then, I rapped to the ground down the heart lines, which is, you know, style, asterisk number one. And if you want to keep track, there's going to be plenty. So. But, rap to the ground and rested on the ground for a day and, and that was my first time even sending free blast was, that was on the ropes, Ella.

00:23:33:07 - 00:23:37:24
Kevin
And then, and then my second day was Hart Ledges.

00:23:37:24 - 00:23:39:02
Kevin
To.

00:23:39:05 - 00:23:39:13
Kevin
The.

00:23:39:13 - 00:23:41:16
Kevin
Alcove which is above the monster.

00:23:41:19 - 00:23:56:19
Kevin
And the monster was just rough for me. And, on this day, I mean, that's it's I forget how many pitches it is. It's something like ten pitches or whatever. And when you're rope soloing, you're climbing the pitch, you're rapping down the pitch, you're jogging up the pitch, and then you're hauling your bag. Right?

00:23:56:19 - 00:23:58:04
Kevin
So it's kind of a lot of work.

00:23:58:04 - 00:24:17:13
Kevin
And by the time, you know, the monster is the last pitch to get up into the alcove. And by the time I got there, I was pretty wrecked. And, I kind of underestimated the amount of work that I was, even though I've done a lot of, done big wall solos and done, like, harder rope solos and stuff, but, yeah.

00:24:17:13 - 00:24:31:25
Kevin
And I took the Bermuda Dunes entry into the monster, which is just slightly different than the down climb that that most folks do. I just never got on the down climb for whatever reason. And so, yeah, without, you know, doing a play by play of moves, I basically one of the crux.

00:24:31:25 - 00:24:33:01
Kevin
Is or probably the crux.

00:24:33:01 - 00:24:40:14
Kevin
There is getting into the monster and you're kind of up under this little overhang and you're kind of getting up over. And I just had.

00:24:40:14 - 00:24:41:07
Kevin
Every.

00:24:41:10 - 00:24:45:10
Kevin
Single rope soloing bullshit happened to me in that one moment.

00:24:45:17 - 00:24:47:16
Kevin
Which is your device locks.

00:24:47:16 - 00:25:09:03
Kevin
Up because you're, you know, you're back up not or whatever. And then you have to release your back up, not and then release your device. And, then it was getting stuck under the little roof thing, and, and I was, I was just dazed onto a six that I was like, kind of pushing ahead of me, because, you know, without a player, I mean, people even do that with the ballet or they'll daisy on to a larger cam that they push ahead of them.

00:25:09:03 - 00:25:16:09
Kevin
But, that just takes out the element of like, well, the how soon will the Greek read catch and yada yada with with rope soloing.

00:25:16:09 - 00:25:19:12
Kevin
So then the daisy was caught under the lip of the roof, and.

00:25:19:12 - 00:25:23:23
Kevin
I had to pull that out. And then I just like whipped onto the, onto the daisy.

00:25:23:23 - 00:25:25:14
Kevin
I just like, was screaming.

00:25:25:14 - 00:25:28:22
Kevin
I couldn't, like, hold on with my hand so I couldn't like, grip.

00:25:28:22 - 00:25:29:04
Kevin
So I was just.

00:25:29:04 - 00:25:49:01
Kevin
Like putting my wrists in there flat and trying to, like, you know, and just screaming. And I was just so fatigued at that point. And I just spat out and, whipped onto the daisy, onto the six. And I had that, like, you know that sound when you like that smell when you like clack to rocks together or something that kind of like, yeah, I had that smell and I was just hanging, like, so defeated.

00:25:49:05 - 00:26:06:16
Kevin
So that was my first fall and and I knew the monster was was hard for me and, and just a lot of physical work in general. And I'm just like, man. And so now what do I do? I lower down myself down to the beginning of the pitch and start again from there. Do I, like, clean the gear?

00:26:06:16 - 00:26:07:13
Kevin
Do I pull the rope or.

00:26:07:13 - 00:26:23:02
Kevin
Do I, you know, yo yo back up to my high point? And, basically I was so cooked that I aided, at the monster, which eating and off with is so awful.

00:26:23:04 - 00:26:25:09
Kevin
So I just like, aided it, which was so.

00:26:25:09 - 00:26:48:08
Kevin
Annoying and tiring and, you know, the monster's 200ft. Easy. And, Yeah, kind of got up in the alcove and and, I think I cleaned, you know, rap down to, you know, wrap down and send it up all the back, all the things, and, Yeah. And then was kind of, like, stuck in the alcove and and, wondering, you know, what to do next.

00:26:48:08 - 00:27:10:03
Kevin
And, the next day I decided to, you know, because if I'm going for this pure style, I have to now rap down with all my bring all my ropes down and then, like, you know, really need that pitch. And I opted to just to to top rope solo it. And that was kind of the start of the, the asterisks kind of piling up.

00:27:10:03 - 00:27:10:10
Kevin
And then.

00:27:10:10 - 00:27:11:16
Kevin
Also, you know.

00:27:11:16 - 00:27:26:01
Kevin
My headspace kind of faltering as well, because I was holding myself to such a high standard for some unknown reason, really. And, yeah. So that was kind of the first.

00:27:26:03 - 00:27:33:09
Kevin
The first top rope. But man, the second man, what comes next? Yeah.

00:27:33:09 - 00:27:35:06
Kevin
The boulder problem.

00:27:35:06 - 00:27:40:17
Kyle
problem. And you had some pretty ethical dilemma with, like, having left it unfinished on lead.

00:27:41:03 - 00:27:45:02
Kevin
Yeah. So I gave it its five lead.

00:27:45:02 - 00:27:48:27
Kevin
Goes and again I never sent it. And I came.

00:27:48:27 - 00:27:51:01
Kevin
So close.

00:27:51:03 - 00:27:53:08
Kevin
On many of those goes. And I actually have like.

00:27:53:12 - 00:27:54:18
Kevin
I have a lot of this stuff.

00:27:54:18 - 00:27:59:09
Kevin
I've a lot of like selfie videos and stuff from, from this ascent. And I'm just kind of like.

00:27:59:11 - 00:27:59:26
Kevin
It's kind of.

00:27:59:26 - 00:28:09:15
Kevin
Embarrassing to watch. And I've only shown a few people because I'm like, you can tell I'm just kind of pretty troubled there, like going through a lie. And, you know, I do my first attempt and I'm like.

00:28:09:20 - 00:28:20:06
Kevin
Whoa, that went really well. Like, I think I can do it, you know? And then just attempt after attempt, you just see me be like, fuck, I blew it. Like, you know, like I did that. I did the kick, I got my hand.

00:28:20:06 - 00:28:22:12
Kevin
Across and then I blew it, you know? And it's just.

00:28:22:12 - 00:28:23:19
Kevin
Like, yeah, totally.

00:28:23:19 - 00:28:30:09
Kevin
Deteriorating. The sun's hitting me now. You know? My skin. Like I'm complaining about my skin. Although I'm looking at it, I'm like, oh, it's.

00:28:30:09 - 00:28:30:25
Kevin
Still actually.

00:28:30:25 - 00:28:44:00
Kevin
Pretty good. I'm kind of trying to find excuses, you know? And then, I, I end up kind of climbing to the top, fixing the rope, refining one piece of data that was pretty key, and then kind of floating it on top rope.

00:28:44:00 - 00:28:46:28
Kevin
And it's just like, I should have, you know, I.

00:28:46:28 - 00:28:50:02
Kevin
Could have done it. I should have done it, you know, and then, like, what are.

00:28:50:02 - 00:28:54:13
Kevin
People going to say? You know, it's like, oh, it's not even going to count. Because I was like, oh, I can top rope the.

00:28:54:13 - 00:28:57:19
Kevin
Monster as long as I lead the boulder, like, no one's going to care, you know?

00:28:57:22 - 00:28:59:27
Kevin
And no one's going to care about any of this anyway.

00:28:59:27 - 00:29:05:09
Kevin
You know, it's not like you're going to get invited on a podcast and have to talk about it at some point.

00:29:05:11 - 00:29:07:13
Kevin
But yeah, I was just this was all.

00:29:07:13 - 00:29:09:24
Kevin
Playing in my head, and it was starting to feel more and more like.

00:29:09:25 - 00:29:14:00
Kevin
A failure. Which in a way it, it was.

00:29:14:00 - 00:29:17:10
Kevin
But again, like, nobody it doesn't matter, you know, nobody cares.

00:29:17:10 - 00:29:19:29
Kevin
And and I was still, you know, I was still having joyful.

00:29:19:29 - 00:29:35:20
Kevin
Moments on the climb and, and, you know, like hooting and hollering to myself and just being like, you know, you know, blown away. But there is definitely this undercurrent where, I was just feeling like I was doing things in really bad style and, and,

00:29:35:22 - 00:29:40:00
Kevin
And, and I kind of knew I was upset at myself for being.

00:29:40:00 - 00:29:41:02
Kevin
Upset about it, you know.

00:29:41:10 - 00:29:43:24
Kevin
And I didn't, you know, this route's pretty popular, but there.

00:29:43:24 - 00:29:46:16
Kevin
Was nobody I saw. Nobody, until.

00:29:46:16 - 00:29:47:09
Kevin
Like, the last.

00:29:47:09 - 00:29:50:13
Kevin
Two pitches some folks wrapped in, and there was just nobody.

00:29:50:13 - 00:29:53:24
Kevin
To, like, you know, just shoot the shit with.

00:29:53:24 - 00:29:56:08
Kevin
Clear the mind out with, you know, it's like.

00:29:56:10 - 00:29:57:09
Kevin
Yeah, rope.

00:29:57:09 - 00:30:08:17
Kevin
Soloing. It's all on you physically, you know, emotionally. And I've done a lot of stuff alone and and I never really felt that. But man, I felt it on this. And I think the reason was because I had seen a lot.

00:30:08:17 - 00:30:08:25
Kevin
Of.

00:30:08:25 - 00:30:26:01
Kevin
Success in my climbing, you know, and, you know, I was an on site climber for a long time because I like to, you know, I like to well, I love on setting, but it's like I was I was succeeding you know, and, I kind of bit off more than I could chew in a way, at least if I wanted to, to chew it in the best possible style.

00:30:26:01 - 00:30:34:24
Kevin
You know, I still got up the thing and technically, you know, freed every move or whatever, but, but, yeah.

00:30:34:24 - 00:30:52:04
Kyle
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00:31:34:08 - 00:31:54:00
Kyle
you got to the top. And I would say most people, you know, experience euphoria and just like success and relief and you know yeah. Just a release of, of the tension that you've built on the wall. Did you have that kind of experience or describe what happened

00:31:54:28 - 00:31:56:00
Kevin
No, not at all. And I was.

00:31:56:00 - 00:31:57:04
Kevin
Like. I was like.

00:31:57:04 - 00:31:58:13
Kevin
Hoping for that so bad.

00:31:58:14 - 00:31:59:25
Kevin
I was just like, get to the top.

00:31:59:25 - 00:32:00:22
Kevin
Like, somehow it'll.

00:32:00:22 - 00:32:02:14
Kevin
All click and it'll all feel.

00:32:02:14 - 00:32:17:29
Kevin
Good and you'll be psyched about it, you know? But yeah, I got to the top. And, you know, I have a video of me just being like, I'm grumpy. Like, I don't. I'm like, maybe I'll be like some other time. But for now, like, I'm just kind of like, grumpy. I had nothing really to say, you know?

00:32:17:29 - 00:32:20:07
Kevin
And and,

00:32:20:09 - 00:32:20:22
Kevin
And I.

00:32:20:22 - 00:32:30:14
Kevin
Still don't. I'm still like, I don't, I don't I have more questions than answers, to be honest. But, about, you know, what? What that, where that was all coming from, and, and.

00:32:30:14 - 00:32:30:27
Kevin
It's hard to.

00:32:30:27 - 00:32:42:12
Kevin
Look back four years later or whatever and say, you know, how you felt or why you were doing something. You know, but, but yeah, I didn't didn't feel good. Kind of accomplished, like, you know.

00:32:42:14 - 00:32:44:00
Kevin
In a way accomplished, but in a.

00:32:44:00 - 00:32:50:05
Kevin
Way, you know, with all the asterisks and stuff. But still an accomplishment. And,

00:32:50:08 - 00:32:52:14
Kevin
Yeah, just felt shitty

00:32:52:28 - 00:32:56:05
Kyle
How how was it a pivot point for you?

00:32:56:05 - 00:32:59:12
Kevin
Well, I think, you know, I after.

00:32:59:12 - 00:33:05:13
Kevin
That, I kind of like, went into, I don't want to say like a dark period because that's being a little traumatic, but.

00:33:05:16 - 00:33:10:07
Kevin
It was, you know, for me, because I think it was me. I think it was just.

00:33:10:07 - 00:33:10:21
Kevin
A kind of a.

00:33:10:21 - 00:33:11:13
Kevin
Part of.

00:33:11:16 - 00:33:13:08
Kevin
Growing up, honestly.

00:33:13:11 - 00:33:15:18
Kevin
Where I had this kind of value system or.

00:33:15:18 - 00:33:17:08
Kevin
I was kind of chasing.

00:33:17:10 - 00:33:18:10
Kevin
Something.

00:33:18:13 - 00:33:18:25
Kevin
And in a.

00:33:18:25 - 00:33:21:20
Kevin
Way, I caught it.

00:33:21:23 - 00:33:25:29
Kevin
With that with Rob selling Free Rider, and I found it to be kind of.

00:33:25:29 - 00:33:31:11
Kevin
Meaningless. And, and so it forced me to just be like, whoa, this whole way.

00:33:31:11 - 00:33:35:07
Kevin
I've been leading my life for a while is.

00:33:35:09 - 00:33:35:26
Kevin
Is is.

00:33:35:26 - 00:33:42:15
Kevin
Fundamentally not, you know, quite right. And I need to make some adjustments about, you know, because if I just.

00:33:42:17 - 00:33:47:03
Kevin
You know, took on all that, you know, it's not it's not that risky. Maybe it's.

00:33:47:03 - 00:33:48:01
Kevin
Weird to say that it's not that.

00:33:48:01 - 00:33:48:19
Kevin
Risky, but it's.

00:33:48:19 - 00:33:49:20
Kevin
Like, I don't know.

00:33:49:20 - 00:33:50:20
Kyle
If you know what you're doing.

00:33:50:20 - 00:33:51:20
Kevin
yeah, it's riskier.

00:33:51:20 - 00:34:02:17
Kevin
Than, you know, around at golf or something, but it's, and it's it's hard to say. It's not riskier than climbing with a partner, but it's not insane. Yes. Out. Yeah. It's not free selling. But.

00:34:02:17 - 00:34:03:01
Kevin
To take.

00:34:03:01 - 00:34:22:12
Kevin
Risk and to do all this hardship and, this struggle and take the physical, you know, the literal time and all the effort and the kind of the anguish and to have, like, not a, you know, if you're doing that and then you're feeling like, amazing after and really fulfilled and really like, you know, gaining tons of confidence and that's helping you.

00:34:22:12 - 00:34:24:18
Kevin
In your life. It's like, okay, you can really justify that.

00:34:24:18 - 00:34:28:01
Kevin
But if you finish something like that and it's just kind of like.

00:34:28:04 - 00:34:35:17
Kevin
Just kind of like, yeah. Like, I, you know, I don't know, I was almost I'm almost it was weird to share about it.

00:34:35:17 - 00:34:39:08
Kevin
And I was in a phase of where I was sharing kind of more on, on social media.

00:34:39:08 - 00:34:40:04
Kevin
And stuff.

00:34:40:06 - 00:34:43:06
Kevin
And, and.

00:34:44:17 - 00:34:48:29
Kevin
Where was I going with that? Yeah. I don't know.

00:34:48:29 - 00:35:07:09
Kyle
bigger, harder, better, faster. If that doesn't end up being a worthy pursuit to me, it means that you're either running away from something or you're missing a portion of your life that you're avoiding. Did you end up finding, like what the missing puzzle piece was?

00:35:07:15 - 00:35:10:11
Kevin
Yeah. You know, I feel like that that puts it.

00:35:10:16 - 00:35:15:12
Kevin
Very nicely and simply. And I'm still I'm still working on all this stuff. But it's so funny.

00:35:15:12 - 00:35:17:11
Kevin
Because I came down.

00:35:17:11 - 00:35:28:07
Kevin
From the free rider, and, it was the next day I met up with a girl I knew from high school, and she was like, hey, I'm getting into climbing. And she lived in San Francisco.

00:35:28:07 - 00:35:29:20
Kevin
And I was like, oh, I come.

00:35:29:20 - 00:35:31:07
Kevin
To Yosemite, you know, and I like.

00:35:31:07 - 00:35:32:06
Kevin
Kind of forgot about.

00:35:32:06 - 00:35:33:05
Kevin
That. I was on the wall and I.

00:35:33:05 - 00:35:38:12
Kevin
Was like, oh, actually, I might not make it, you know, like because, like the weather, I still have extra food.

00:35:38:12 - 00:35:45:09
Kevin
I might stick around and then, yeah. And now we've been dating basically ever since and,

00:35:45:12 - 00:35:49:13
Kevin
And yeah, it was really this.

00:35:49:15 - 00:35:50:09
Kevin
I mean, it.

00:35:50:11 - 00:35:52:12
Kevin
Yeah. It was not easy.

00:35:52:12 - 00:36:02:28
Kevin
Transition, really, but yeah, it forced me to kind of reconsider. I was living in a van like a shitty van forever and, like, saw No Way out. And it was just climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing. And I gotten a lot.

00:36:02:28 - 00:36:03:16
Kevin
Of reward.

00:36:03:16 - 00:36:09:00
Kevin
From being all about climbing. And then, Yeah, I just needed to, I needed to.

00:36:09:03 - 00:36:10:20
Kevin
To tweak that because it was really.

00:36:10:20 - 00:36:22:10
Kevin
Causing me some trouble. I mean, to the point where I was having panic attacks in, in the Valley, you know, I would spend I did like the tsunami or like, yeah, the tsunami, Triple Crown or something. And, and,

00:36:22:12 - 00:36:23:14
Kevin
Soloed it all.

00:36:23:14 - 00:36:36:22
Kevin
And it was awesome, you know, and, and but then the next day I was so exhausted I couldn't do anything. But then I was like, how was anxious about the fact that I wasn't doing anything because I was too tired to do anything because of the things I've been doing, you know?

00:36:36:22 - 00:36:40:26
Kevin
And it's just like, oh my gosh, dude, like, this is not going to work, you know?

00:36:40:29 - 00:36:43:01
Kevin
And and,

00:36:43:07 - 00:36:44:20
Kevin
Yeah, I think it's easy to get caught.

00:36:44:20 - 00:36:48:05
Kevin
Up in that, you know, when you're, when you're living your life.

00:36:48:05 - 00:36:48:18
Kevin
To be.

00:36:48:18 - 00:36:58:07
Kevin
About climbing, when you've given up on maybe a normal, a lifestyle and you're living in a car and you're living on the, you know, as cheap as possible to climb all the time.

00:36:58:13 - 00:37:02:11
Kevin
You kind of want something to show for it. And, you know, and so it's.

00:37:02:13 - 00:37:04:12
Kevin
You know, and, and,

00:37:04:14 - 00:37:06:28
Kevin
Your life's all about that. So you got to be all.

00:37:06:28 - 00:37:09:18
Kevin
About that, you know, and, and I.

00:37:09:18 - 00:37:17:02
Kevin
See it, I see it a lot.

00:37:17:04 - 00:37:17:17
Kevin
Yeah.

00:37:17:17 - 00:37:18:20
Kevin
Yeah, 100%.

00:37:18:20 - 00:37:23:00
Kevin
Yep. Exactly, exactly. And I think, you know, a lot of, you know, I speak for.

00:37:23:00 - 00:37:24:04
Kevin
Myself, but I think other people.

00:37:24:04 - 00:37:28:07
Kevin
Can relate. It's like I didn't I dropped out at school, you.

00:37:28:07 - 00:37:35:25
Kevin
Know, and like, you know, I find a lot of, like, normal things really challenging to, like, maintain or like.

00:37:35:25 - 00:37:38:16
Kevin
Deal with, like, you know, and I think a lot and I.

00:37:38:16 - 00:37:46:29
Kevin
Think a lot of people too, but, you know, and having those struggles is, I think, probably how a lot of people end up like living in a van. And, and the.

00:37:46:29 - 00:37:47:11
Kevin
Dirtbag.

00:37:47:11 - 00:37:47:28
Kevin
Lifestyle kind of.

00:37:47:29 - 00:37:48:18
Kevin
Celebrates.

00:37:48:18 - 00:37:53:26
Kevin
A lot of, a lot of, things that I, you know.

00:37:53:28 - 00:38:00:11
Kevin
Like, let's not take responsibility. Like, that's a good thing. And like, it's a good thing, you know? And so it kind of like celebrated a lot of that.

00:38:00:11 - 00:38:04:19
Kevin
And, and I think, you know, climbing became a way to.

00:38:04:21 - 00:38:07:16
Kevin
Be like, okay, I suck at like my life.

00:38:07:19 - 00:38:13:01
Kevin
Is in shambles, but I'm really good at this. Like, I'm good at this one thing. And.

00:38:13:03 - 00:38:14:09
Kevin
And I think there's, I think there's.

00:38:14:09 - 00:38:15:07
Kevin
A good element of that.

00:38:15:07 - 00:38:18:15
Kevin
You know, we all have egos. You need an ego to, to survive.

00:38:18:17 - 00:38:36:20
Kevin
And I think if climbing can make you feel kind of confident and good about yourself and you can bring that to navigate the world, I think that's that's great. And one of, you know, maybe one of the best things climbing is can be, but if it becomes like, this is the only thing I've got, you know, and, then it can.

00:38:36:23 - 00:38:38:25
Kevin
It can just tip the scales. You know, it's not to say.

00:38:38:25 - 00:38:41:27
Kevin
That, you know, that we're not having a lot of fun with our friends and all that.

00:38:41:27 - 00:38:45:10
Kevin
But at some point, I think at some point, for me, it just tipped a little.

00:38:45:10 - 00:38:46:01
Kevin
Bit.

00:38:46:03 - 00:38:48:19
Kevin
Where it was less about.

00:38:48:21 - 00:38:53:13
Kevin
It started to become a little bit too much about. Yeah, achievement and and like kind of.

00:38:53:13 - 00:38:54:14
Kevin
A hierarchy and.

00:38:54:14 - 00:38:56:08
Kevin
You know, like what will people think of me?

00:38:56:08 - 00:38:57:16
Kevin
And I mean it's embarrassing.

00:38:57:16 - 00:38:58:26
Kevin
To say I'm like embarrassed to.

00:38:58:27 - 00:38:59:27
Kevin
To say that.

00:38:59:29 - 00:39:00:24
Kevin
But

00:39:00:26 - 00:39:02:17
Kevin
I think a lot of people can, can.

00:39:02:17 - 00:39:05:16
Kevin
Relate or I hope, I hope they can.

00:39:05:18 - 00:39:08:10
Kevin
I was just.

00:39:08:10 - 00:39:24:07
Kyle
you know, scale version of this, I also fell into this trap like I Covid hit, I got laid off of the job for fine dining. I was trying to find a direction and career. I just knew I loved climbing, so I was just like, I going to dedicate myself to climbing

00:39:25:10 - 00:39:28:06
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah.

00:39:28:06 - 00:39:55:27
Kyle
accident really quickly. So it almost like just like cut that off really quick, which was really nice. I was just like, no, this is not your direction. Like, you need to you need to diversify. You need to figure something else out. But yeah, no, it's definitely, I've talked to a lot of people that have had this, this issue happen, and I really think it's when we when we tie our ego and self-worth to our performance in climbing to tightly, that we start to put too many eggs in that basket.

00:39:55:27 - 00:40:21:28
Kyle
And it's like there's multiple issues or multiple like weak points in that philosophy, in my opinion. And one of them is like, what happens when you get old? Like you're 60 or 50 and you can't climb as hard anymore. And your entire life you've built around, you've built your self-worth around your performance in climbing. And when that ultimately is taken away from you by the universe, by God, or whatever by your age, what are you going to rest on?

00:40:21:28 - 00:40:43:25
Kyle
What do you you know, you've spent your entire life chasing something that's not even going to give back to you. So there's like that weird juxtaposition there. And then also ultimately, I feel like people who are chasing performance and climbing, it's like you're chasing the dream of being sponsored. You're chasing the dream of being a professional athlete to be paid to climb all the time, because then it's like it's easier to justify.

00:40:43:25 - 00:41:14:01
Kyle
It's like, okay, it's not my job. Now I get to climb for my job, and it's like, I get to chase performance for a paycheck instead of I'm getting I'm chasing performance for I don't know what the fuck my own, my own self-worth or people's opinions of me. And it sounds like you got pretty close to getting that kind of goal, to getting across that finish line and becoming to step over into a professional athlete where you could kind of live that lifestyle, but you turned it away, or you found that it wasn't something for

00:41:14:24 - 00:41:16:12
Kevin
Well, I mean, I'm certainly.

00:41:16:12 - 00:41:18:10
Kevin
Wasn't, like, getting any offers, you know? But.

00:41:18:14 - 00:41:19:27
Kevin
But it would be hard to say that.

00:41:19:27 - 00:41:31:09
Kevin
That's not kind of the game I was playing. And I think a lot of, I think a lot of climbers do, and I think a lot of, like, dirtbag climbers living in their vans are like, well, that's that's the ultimate, you know.

00:41:31:11 - 00:41:36:14
Kevin
Yeah, yeah. And I don't think I'm so glad I didn't end up, you know, it's so easy to.

00:41:36:14 - 00:41:39:21
Kevin
Say and it's kind of like, well, first of all, I wasn't good enough. Right?

00:41:39:26 - 00:41:42:14
Kevin
But like, it's so easy to say like, well I.

00:41:42:14 - 00:41:44:15
Kevin
Wouldn't have like, that lifestyle. So you know.

00:41:44:15 - 00:41:44:26
Kevin
It's like.

00:41:44:26 - 00:41:46:24
Kevin
That's why I didn't that's why I'm not pro.

00:41:46:27 - 00:41:48:12
Kevin
But I think that would have just.

00:41:48:12 - 00:42:02:10
Kevin
Added in these elements that for me would have really continued to just really mess with me. You know, now it's not only is it my internal self-image, but it's also like external, you know, it's also like income and all that. And, and I think.

00:42:02:10 - 00:42:02:27
Kevin
And I think.

00:42:02:27 - 00:42:04:22
Kevin
I think the pro climbing thing gets.

00:42:04:22 - 00:42:05:17
Kevin
Really.

00:42:05:17 - 00:42:26:27
Kevin
Glorified. You know, you know, knowing some, some pros and, and, and, you know, and, and climbing with them and stuff, it's like, man, it's a lot for, for not a lot back, you know, like, you know, at the, at the lower tiers. Yeah. If you're Alex or Tommy, like it's amazing. Right. But for everyone.

00:42:26:27 - 00:42:29:26
Kevin
Else it's, it's, you know, you're I don't know, you're giving up.

00:42:29:26 - 00:42:30:25
Kevin
A lot and like, you're.

00:42:30:25 - 00:42:39:03
Kevin
Maybe you're getting a trip a year covered. Maybe you're getting some shoes and ropes and stuff. Maybe you're getting maybe you're getting a couple grand a month if you're, you're.

00:42:39:03 - 00:42:41:20
Kevin
Doing, you know, I think quite.

00:42:41:20 - 00:42:44:17
Kevin
Well, but you're giving up a lot.

00:42:44:17 - 00:42:48:09
Kevin
And in return for that,

00:42:48:09 - 00:43:13:24
Kyle
bit, but this is actually a topic I've been really interested in lately. Is this, like, the professional climbing scene and the perception of the public of that scene and what it's actually like on the other side? And you kind of you just spoke to it a bit, but is there a bit more insight you have in terms of that disparity between the public's view on a climber and, and our goals and dreams for some people to be chasing this, you know, career of a professional climber

00:43:15:14 - 00:43:16:16
Kevin
You know, I don't think I can.

00:43:16:16 - 00:43:33:16
Kevin
Speak on that a lot. You know? I'm not. Yeah. I've climbed with some some pros and and and hung out with them a few times and stuff, but that's. Yeah, I can't say too much. You know, it's interesting, though, when I, when I talk to them, you know, candidly and personally, it's like it's a lot of this stuff that we're talking about.

00:43:33:16 - 00:43:50:04
Kevin
It's like, man, climbing is kind of become a little bit too much. And I kind of want to take, you know, I hear that a lot from, you know, people on magazine covers and stuff and it's like, so, yeah, I think a lot of, you know, this conversation we're having is, is, is out there for them as well.

00:43:50:04 - 00:43:52:02
Kevin
And,

00:43:52:04 - 00:43:53:24
Kevin
It feels it feels like making it.

00:43:53:24 - 00:44:02:05
Kevin
But I think even when you've made it, you're, you haven't made it at all. You're just now you just now have to post a certain amount.

00:44:02:05 - 00:44:11:12
Kevin
Yeah. You're at the bottom. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.

00:44:14:02 - 00:44:22:12
Kevin
Yeah, totally. And and climbing is a great example of that. Right. Because you hit 510 and guess what. There's five.

00:44:22:12 - 00:44:23:23
Kevin
11 and then you hit.

00:44:23:23 - 00:44:24:14
Kevin
511.

00:44:24:14 - 00:44:24:28
Kevin
And it's like.

00:44:24:28 - 00:44:29:21
Kevin
Guess what. There's 512 you know, and so like and it net I mean for the for the.

00:44:29:21 - 00:44:39:23
Kevin
Average climber like it's never it never ends you know and and you know like is Adam Ondra sitting on his hands. No he's trying to you know he's like pushing it too. So it's just like.

00:44:39:25 - 00:44:40:29
Kevin
And it's so.

00:44:40:29 - 00:44:50:03
Kevin
Obvious. It's so in our face. And then and yet somehow sometimes we can, we can get a little too cheesy and a little less enjoying the moment. And, and.

00:44:50:03 - 00:44:51:18
Kevin
I think that's, that's, I think that's.

00:44:51:18 - 00:45:01:16
Kevin
Like an internal, eternal human struggle, right? Between being content with where we are but continuing to try and achieve and have more impact. And I think that's.

00:45:01:16 - 00:45:02:16
Kevin
Just we.

00:45:02:16 - 00:45:10:15
Kevin
We get to see it in our sport in a certain way, and it kind of manifests itself in a certain way. But I think ultimately that's kind of the one of the great human struggles.

00:45:10:15 - 00:45:11:29
Kevin
It's like, how do you hold on.

00:45:11:29 - 00:45:13:07
Kevin
To something.

00:45:13:10 - 00:45:14:05
Kevin
Lightly.

00:45:14:05 - 00:45:22:15
Kevin
And when you know, and not kind of clench on to it and, and to your own detriment, you know,

00:45:22:18 - 00:45:23:17
Kevin
Yeah, totally.

00:45:23:17 - 00:45:26:19
Kevin
I often wonder that I'm like, oh, man, I want like.

00:45:26:21 - 00:45:28:02
Kevin
Yeah, I don't know.

00:45:28:04 - 00:45:35:04
Kevin
If you can just be, you know, sit back and and be content or.

00:45:35:04 - 00:45:40:14
Kyle
think like I posted about this recently is like number one is safety. Number two is fun.

00:45:40:22 - 00:45:43:19
Kevin
Yeah. I saw your I saw your post. Yeah. Totally.

00:45:43:19 - 00:45:52:29
Kyle
is obviously challenge or adventure or, you know, time with people. And it's like, as long as I'm having fun during and after that, I feel like it's been a good trip.

00:45:53:05 - 00:45:59:11
Kevin
Yeah. I, I don't know about the fun thing. Like I agree, I love that idea and maybe I'm too much of a pessimist.

00:45:59:11 - 00:46:00:02
Kevin
Or something.

00:46:00:02 - 00:46:10:29
Kevin
Because I'll hear that from my friends. It's like it's just got to be fun. Like, just have fun. And I'm like, is it that simple? Am I missing something? Like, is it that because I don't know, you hear, you know, I listen to your recent episode with.

00:46:10:29 - 00:46:12:07
Kevin
With Tanner and Mike.

00:46:12:07 - 00:46:13:28
Kevin
About like the drew or like the.

00:46:13:28 - 00:46:15:08
Kevin
Goliath and the drew and stuff.

00:46:15:15 - 00:46:25:06
Kevin
They're like, well, we just had to have, you know, have fun. And it's like, why are you guys sobbing if it's like it's out? You know, it's not quite that simple, you know, as fun.

00:46:25:06 - 00:46:43:03
Kyle
think there's there's multiple ways to digest the word fun, right? Fun is like Chucky cheese. We're playing arcades, we're having fun. And then there's fun, like, okay, we're suffering out here, but we're not obsessing about the fact that we're having a miserable time or, you know, the focus is not about the struggle. The focus is like, look around.

00:46:43:03 - 00:46:58:25
Kyle
Like, look at the view. Like, taking a second to, like, come out of that flow state and like, look down and just like, recognize like where you are in space, like having the space to open yourself up, to have that kind of level of enjoyment, I think is important.

00:46:59:07 - 00:47:02:00
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah for sure. Definitely.

00:47:02:01 - 00:47:04:14
Kevin
And yeah, it's all and I think.

00:47:04:15 - 00:47:13:23
Kevin
Having reflections and of just observing this in ourselves as we, as we go out and climb, I think that's one of the great. You know, that's what I love about climbing and really any pursuit is.

00:47:13:23 - 00:47:14:14
Kevin
The, the.

00:47:14:21 - 00:47:31:26
Kevin
The, the mirror that it can be, you know, and a chance to look at myself and learn about myself, learn about myself, learn about the people around me, learn about the world around me. You know, climbing is amazing for that, you know, to travel and stuff. But for me, it's a I'm like, really think about, yeah, myself a lot.

00:47:31:26 - 00:47:40:07
Kevin
And climbing can be such an insane mirror into that sometimes if you really, you know, think about it's like, man, why am I getting so frustrated? You know, it's.

00:47:40:07 - 00:47:42:06
Kevin
Like, well, because you expect to be.

00:47:42:06 - 00:47:45:20
Kevin
Able to climb something like this and it's giving you trouble and like.

00:47:45:26 - 00:47:47:19
Kevin
Yeah, can just yeah, if you really, like.

00:47:47:19 - 00:47:49:16
Kevin
Look at it and pull it apart can kind of teach you a.

00:47:49:16 - 00:47:52:09
Kevin
Lot.

00:47:52:09 - 00:48:09:09
Kyle
personal life, too. Like, if you're, So much of climbing is in mental space, right? Like, if you're not in a good mental space at home, if you've got family stuff going on, you've got career stuff going on, you've got stresses at your home, like you're going to bring that to the to the wall and it's going to show and you're at your limit.

00:48:09:09 - 00:48:25:27
Kyle
And you're like trying to figure out crux Gear or Crux Beda and you're like really pushing it. You're not going to be as locked in as you were, as if like your life was locked in when you showed up to the crack. And I think that's another reason why climbing is so important is because, like, when you're not feeling good, you're like, okay, like, what do I need to reflect on?

00:48:25:27 - 00:48:31:11
Kyle
Like, what do I got to figure out? Like, what about my life? Do I need to kind of iron out? What have I been avoiding that's causing me this like mental

00:48:32:13 - 00:48:34:12
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think.

00:48:34:20 - 00:48:36:16
Kevin
I mean, in a lot of ways it can be.

00:48:36:16 - 00:48:41:26
Kevin
An escape from that. Right? Because when you're fighting for that sand or that on site, like, man, I love that feeling.

00:48:41:26 - 00:48:45:09
Kevin
But it's like, you're so folk, you're so focused.

00:48:45:09 - 00:48:45:22
Kevin
And then.

00:48:45:26 - 00:48:47:11
Kevin
But God forbid you fall off.

00:48:47:18 - 00:48:48:24
Kevin
Because then you have.

00:48:48:24 - 00:48:59:28
Kevin
To then it's like, oh my God, I have all these problems in my life and I can't even climb this thing, you know? It's like, oh my gosh. And like, you know, and then you're like, you pull back on and you're like, oh, I just slipped.

00:48:59:28 - 00:49:00:28
Kevin
And then you realize, actually.

00:49:00:28 - 00:49:02:12
Kevin
It's hard for you because you fall off a couple.

00:49:02:12 - 00:49:04:02
Kevin
More times and then you're like, real.

00:49:04:02 - 00:49:07:28
Kevin
You know, then you really lose it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

00:49:07:28 - 00:49:09:07
Kyle
here.

00:49:09:07 - 00:49:12:19
Kyle
if you can't enjoy where you're at and climbing, you won't enjoy where you're going.

00:49:13:05 - 00:49:14:24
Kevin
Yeah, I like that one.

00:49:15:20 - 00:49:20:24
Kevin
Yeah. It's kind of the the grade chasing idea and just the thing and it can, it can not.

00:49:20:24 - 00:49:32:18
Kevin
Even be grades. It can just be, styles of climbing. Like, I need to be a track climber. I need to be this climber or that climber, this great climber, or I need to be climbing the alpine. And. And that's just never going to end.

00:49:32:18 - 00:49:33:15
Kevin
Like we just talked about.

00:49:33:15 - 00:49:37:21
Kevin
There's always going to be, you know, chances to, to,

00:49:37:24 - 00:49:39:03
Kevin
Go bigger, better, faster.

00:49:39:03 - 00:49:40:15
Kevin
You know, and, and yeah, so I.

00:49:40:15 - 00:49:42:03
Kevin
I, I, I love.

00:49:42:03 - 00:49:50:02
Kevin
That little saying, if you can't enjoy where you're at, you're not going to enjoy where you're going, you know, and, I.

00:49:50:02 - 00:49:51:28
Kevin
Don't think it quite works perfectly for.

00:49:51:28 - 00:50:02:06
Kevin
For life as well, because you can be in some shitty situations that just suck and you should get out of those. But, but yeah, for climbing, I think it fits. You know, if you're not enjoying.

00:50:02:08 - 00:50:02:24
Kevin
You know.

00:50:03:02 - 00:50:07:14
Kevin
Having, you know. Yeah. Having a hard time on the, the quote unquote.

00:50:07:14 - 00:50:08:26
Kevin
Warm ups or whatever with.

00:50:08:26 - 00:50:12:02
Kevin
With your friends at the crag. It's like, you know.

00:50:12:09 - 00:50:14:28
Kevin
Fix that first. Yeah. Yeah.

00:50:14:28 - 00:50:15:22
Kevin
It's not going to solve it.

00:50:15:22 - 00:50:17:10
Kevin
Yeah. And and I have people hit me.

00:50:17:10 - 00:50:21:26
Kevin
Up as an instructor, you know, they're like, I need to be climbing 510 trad.

00:50:21:29 - 00:50:35:15
Kevin
And I'm like, I'm like, okay, sweet. Yeah. I'm like, okay, sweet, give me your money. And then, okay, you know why? Why do you, you know. No, but really, it's just like, why, you know, why do you like, what do you think is there? What do you think is there? Because I haven't pushed to the top.

00:50:35:15 - 00:50:40:11
Kevin
Of the sport. Of course, you know, I've only gone as far as I've gone, but I haven't found any. I didn't find anything there.

00:50:40:14 - 00:50:43:02
Kevin
You know. And I feel so lucky.

00:50:43:04 - 00:50:50:04
Kevin
To have live my life in a way I really committed to this activity. You know, I really dove in and. And it let me.

00:50:50:04 - 00:50:52:18
Kevin
Kind of get to my.

00:50:52:18 - 00:50:53:16
Kevin
High level, you know, I think.

00:50:53:16 - 00:50:55:04
Kevin
It's all relative, right? I was able.

00:50:55:04 - 00:50:58:20
Kevin
To get to my what, you know, what was hard and high level for me.

00:50:58:22 - 00:51:00:11
Kevin
And I just like there's.

00:51:00:11 - 00:51:24:20
Kevin
Nothing really there, you know, and, and, I think a lot of folks, they don't they have lives and families or jobs or whatever, and, and they can't necessarily dive 1,000% and, and realize that, you know, what they're, they're chasing is maybe ultimately false, you know, if that is what, what they're chasing. And, you know, I think you see that a lot with like, I don't know.

00:51:24:20 - 00:51:32:09
Kevin
Celebrities are like, really? Do you want to be a celebrity? Like, it's not what you think you know or like, you know and that. Yeah, people people are, you know, the grass.

00:51:32:09 - 00:51:48:29
Kevin
Is always greener and people are always struggling. But, I feel lucky to have, like, driven to that point where I had to kind of start to peel back the layers and be like, okay, what am I actually trying to accomplish here? And what was I really trying to get out of this? And.

00:51:49:01 - 00:51:50:23
Kevin
Yeah.

00:51:50:23 - 00:51:57:24
Kyle
to, like, stake or put your happiness on a goal that you haven't reached yet, instead of accepting it for where it is

00:51:57:24 - 00:52:13:02
Kevin
Yeah, totally in it. Yeah. And it's such a it's it's such an addicting mindset. Right. Because it gives you something to do, gives you something to work towards that gets you through the day to day monotony and stuff. And you're like, yeah, but if I get there.

00:52:13:04 - 00:52:15:05
Kevin
You know, and then,

00:52:15:07 - 00:52:20:27
Kevin
You know, like, I hope everyone gets there, you know, because and maybe it does it for him, maybe it all of a.

00:52:20:27 - 00:52:25:26
Kevin
Sudden everything clicks and it's all good, you know, but I doubt, I mean, I doubt it. I don't think that's how.

00:52:25:28 - 00:52:26:15
Kevin
I think that's.

00:52:26:15 - 00:52:29:23
Kevin
How things are portrayed. And in the greater.

00:52:29:27 - 00:52:30:17
Kevin
I mean, again, this.

00:52:30:17 - 00:52:34:15
Kevin
Is like the human condition. And I think that's how we see action movies.

00:52:34:15 - 00:52:38:18
Kevin
It's just like and then it's all or like whatever, it's all happily ever after or whatever or same.

00:52:38:18 - 00:52:44:21
Kevin
In climbing media. You know, and it's just like, yeah, but you'd still.

00:52:44:23 - 00:52:54:28
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I don't know, maybe some people do, you know, and, and I have certainly like it's not to say I haven't.

00:52:54:28 - 00:53:04:11
Kevin
Gotten any benefit from these experiences. You know, like, like, having those achievements kind of on my resume. Right. I work as an instructor and stuff, and.

00:53:04:14 - 00:53:06:24
Kevin
And it helps. And it helps me psychologically.

00:53:06:24 - 00:53:08:12
Kevin
When I get imposter syndrome to be.

00:53:08:12 - 00:53:10:11
Kevin
Like, hey, actually, I got a pretty solid, like.

00:53:10:11 - 00:53:16:26
Kevin
Climbing resume. Like, I should be I should be okay with, you know, like sharing my knowledge and stuff because.

00:53:16:26 - 00:53:17:11
Kevin
It's like, oh.

00:53:17:11 - 00:53:22:21
Kevin
Well, somebody is going to call me an idiot on Instagram and say, I don't know anything, you know, and, and and.

00:53:22:24 - 00:53:23:19
Kevin
So it has like.

00:53:23:19 - 00:53:32:10
Kevin
Helped me, you know, build myself up. So it's not, you know, it's not totally empty and it's and it's had that, long lasting effect.

00:53:35:06 - 00:53:36:16
Kevin
But yeah.

00:53:36:16 - 00:53:41:00
Kyle
You, you say that you're a human first and a climber second. What do you mean by that?

00:53:41:14 - 00:53:57:22
Kevin
Yeah. What do I mean by that? Did I say that to you? Oh, okay. Oh, my gosh, you're good, you're good. Yeah, yeah. You know, I feel like, well, I, I was like, I was worried you were.

00:53:57:22 - 00:54:01:06
Kevin
Going to ask me to like, introduce myself, you know? And it's like.

00:54:01:08 - 00:54:04:17
Kevin
And it makes. And that's kind of like a flippant answer.

00:54:04:17 - 00:54:06:29
Kevin
It's like, well, I'm a human being. It's like, yeah, we know that, you know.

00:54:06:29 - 00:54:10:10
Kevin
But but I feel like it's easy to be like, oh.

00:54:10:10 - 00:54:23:00
Kevin
I'm, you know, just labels, you know, it's like I'm a the I'm a, I'm a trad climber or like, I'm a guide and I'm a this, I'm a certified this and that. And I own a business and I, you know.

00:54:23:06 - 00:54:30:21
Kevin
I don't know, it's just it's it's a, it's a bit of, it's a bit maybe of like a, a bit of a spiritual nod maybe.

00:54:30:21 - 00:54:32:14
Kevin
It's just like I'm a human being.

00:54:32:16 - 00:54:33:08
Kevin
That's pretty much.

00:54:33:08 - 00:54:34:18
Kevin
All I'm convinced of.

00:54:34:20 - 00:54:35:23
Kevin
You know? The rest is.

00:54:35:23 - 00:54:44:04
Kevin
Just kind of, like, impermanent, ever changing stuff, you know? And, and, I think when we try and latch on, I think that's.

00:54:44:04 - 00:54:46:18
Kevin
What I've been trying to do with a lot of.

00:54:46:18 - 00:54:51:08
Kevin
Accomplishment, in adventure and in climbing is kind of.

00:54:51:11 - 00:54:55:13
Kevin
Find some kernel of, of, of permanent self or.

00:54:55:13 - 00:55:02:20
Kevin
Truth, you know, that I can be like, this is what I am, I've done this, I've done that, I've done this. I, you know, scroll my Instagram feed and that's.

00:55:02:21 - 00:55:03:04
Kevin
Tells you.

00:55:03:05 - 00:55:06:16
Kevin
Who I am because I'm the person who's done those things, you know, and.

00:55:06:16 - 00:55:09:29
Kevin
It's like you're not you're just kind of you're just I'm

00:55:09:29 - 00:55:10:14
Kevin
just sitting.

00:55:10:14 - 00:55:14:28
Kevin
Here talking to you. That's what I am, you know?

00:55:15:01 - 00:55:15:11
Kevin
Yeah.

00:55:15:11 - 00:55:18:22
Kevin
Exactly. Exactly. And, and.

00:55:18:24 - 00:55:20:06
Kevin
I think that's.

00:55:20:08 - 00:55:27:02
Kevin
You know, when struggling to kind of like, have an identity, I think that's, you know, and it.

00:55:27:04 - 00:55:28:02
Kevin
It goes.

00:55:28:09 - 00:55:38:00
Kevin
You know, way earlier than that with like mountaineering and like and just travel and adventure in general before it was really performance rock climbing really. It was I was kind of like notching up this thing like.

00:55:38:00 - 00:55:39:02
Kevin
Oh, I did this cool thing.

00:55:39:02 - 00:55:45:02
Kevin
I did that cool thing. I can say I've done, you know, and then I can just be like, when I'm in this existential dread of like, who.

00:55:45:02 - 00:55:45:18
Kevin
The hell.

00:55:45:18 - 00:55:48:27
Kevin
Am I? What am I? What is going on? You know.

00:55:48:29 - 00:55:50:05
Kevin
The idea is I can fall.

00:55:50:05 - 00:55:51:05
Kevin
Back on that and be like.

00:55:51:05 - 00:55:52:09
Kevin
Okay, I've done this and I've done.

00:55:52:09 - 00:55:57:03
Kevin
That. I've done this. And, you know, that's also,

00:55:57:05 - 00:55:57:21
Kevin
Yeah, that's.

00:55:57:21 - 00:56:04:10
Kevin
That's just, I think, you know, going to kind of cause some suffering as well, just trying to latch on new identity because.

00:56:04:10 - 00:56:04:24
Kevin
Like you said.

00:56:04:24 - 00:56:08:15
Kevin
Right. It's like you're going to you're going to age, you could.

00:56:08:15 - 00:56:09:03
Kevin
Get sick.

00:56:09:04 - 00:56:11:04
Kevin
You know, you could get you could have an accident.

00:56:11:05 - 00:56:15:17
Kevin
You're going to lose these parts of yourself that really aren't parts of yourself.

00:56:15:20 - 00:56:18:08
Kevin
They're just some things that you've,

00:56:18:11 - 00:56:23:22
Kevin
Kind of told yourself or parts of yourself, you know, which is scary because what happens when you lose them, right? You had an.

00:56:23:22 - 00:56:28:18
Kevin
Accident. I had an injury. And,

00:56:28:20 - 00:56:30:01
Kevin
Yeah, suddenly that's gets.

00:56:30:01 - 00:56:47:19
Kevin
Really scary when it's not, you know, you're actually losing your your sense of identity or your sense of, you know, who you think you are. So, yeah, you know, like I'm convinced. Yeah. I'm a I'm a, I'm a human being. I breathe air and, you know the rest. I'm figuring it out, you know? Yeah.

00:56:47:19 - 00:57:00:10
Kyle
it's again, it's the same vein, but we can all just get so wrapped up in our identity as a climber and what we're doing as a climber. And it's, it's that specific pursuit

00:57:03:12 - 00:57:07:26
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. You know, I was like. I was like, oh, man, I'm talking to Kyle.

00:57:07:26 - 00:57:09:13
Kevin
It's like I'm not really like.

00:57:09:15 - 00:57:11:19
Kevin
I'm not really, like, super stoked.

00:57:11:19 - 00:57:12:18
Kevin
On climbing, right now.

00:57:12:18 - 00:57:15:00
Kevin
Like, I love climbing, right? But like, I'm at a different.

00:57:15:00 - 00:57:16:26
Kevin
Phase in my life with climbing where I'm.

00:57:16:26 - 00:57:19:02
Kevin
Not doing all the rad shit.

00:57:19:02 - 00:57:22:29
Kevin
And that I can't wait to, like, kind of humble brag about, you know, I'm kind of like in this.

00:57:22:29 - 00:57:26:16
Kevin
Other part where it's like, and I'm re figuring what climbing is.

00:57:26:16 - 00:57:28:00
Kevin
For me now, you know, because.

00:57:28:00 - 00:57:29:20
Kevin
It's like I've kind of decided.

00:57:29:23 - 00:57:33:26
Kevin
I'm not right now, you know, I'm not going to keep putting in tons.

00:57:33:26 - 00:57:34:13
Kevin
Of work.

00:57:34:20 - 00:57:38:03
Kevin
To keep improving. And so that means I'm probably gonna get.

00:57:38:03 - 00:57:38:26
Kevin
Worse.

00:57:38:29 - 00:57:41:06
Kevin
And, and, you know, and.

00:57:41:07 - 00:57:42:17
Kevin
It's like, okay, well, that's going.

00:57:42:17 - 00:57:44:15
Kevin
To be a different relationship with this activity.

00:57:44:22 - 00:57:45:15
Kevin
So then what can.

00:57:45:15 - 00:57:48:03
Kevin
This activity mean to me if it's not because.

00:57:48:03 - 00:57:50:07
Kevin
I think we do love the pursuit of.

00:57:50:07 - 00:57:50:25
Kevin
Progression.

00:57:50:25 - 00:57:51:26
Kevin
We love it.

00:57:51:26 - 00:57:57:22
Kevin
We love it so much. And I don't, you know, and that's something I've been really curious about and I think.

00:57:57:22 - 00:57:58:06
Kevin
Is also.

00:57:58:06 - 00:58:05:14
Kevin
Just part of the human condition that we we love that. And, but I'm not getting that from climbing right now.

00:58:05:17 - 00:58:10:17
Kevin
And I could, I could, you know, I've kind of dip my toes into a lot of the different subsections of.

00:58:10:17 - 00:58:15:04
Kevin
Climbing, like the one I haven't really is like hard eight, like nailing. So.

00:58:15:04 - 00:58:16:21
Kevin
Like, I could probably get.

00:58:16:21 - 00:58:18:23
Kevin
That feeling of progression improvement through that.

00:58:18:23 - 00:58:20:21
Kevin
But I think my relationship right.

00:58:20:21 - 00:58:24:05
Kevin
Now with climbing is just I'm getting something different from it, you know? And I have.

00:58:24:05 - 00:58:26:17
Kevin
Other aspects of my life where I'm maybe I'm getting more of the.

00:58:26:17 - 00:58:29:19
Kevin
Progression feeling. And,

00:58:29:22 - 00:58:32:08
Kevin
I'd like to think that.

00:58:32:11 - 00:58:35:24
Kevin
Even if I'm not constantly progressing in my climbing.

00:58:35:24 - 00:58:37:15
Kevin
It's still a valuable pursuit.

00:58:37:15 - 00:58:45:15
Kevin
And I can still enjoy it and learn from it. You know, when I, when I talked to climbers who were just always on the up and up and up and up and up.

00:58:45:20 - 00:58:46:17
Kevin
It's like, yeah, no shit.

00:58:46:17 - 00:58:48:07
Kevin
You're stoked out of your mind.

00:58:48:10 - 00:58:57:03
Kevin
You know, it's like I'm kind of more interested in the conversations with folks who've had setbacks or who who are kind of like, you know, just at different phases in their.

00:58:57:03 - 00:59:03:09
Kevin
Climbing and, and, and what they still get from it, what they still enjoy.

00:59:03:11 - 00:59:06:09
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

00:59:06:09 - 00:59:28:18
Kyle
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01:00:06:06 - 01:00:23:26
Kyle
And I think, again, with this kind of structure of stories first, I'd love to hear your experience climbing with Brad. Go right on El Cap. And, how it influenced your perception of risk and risk management strategies at the time. So, yeah, talk talk to me about the story.

01:00:23:26 - 01:00:27:23
Kyle
Tell me your play by play with him on that day, and then let's dive into risk

01:00:28:16 - 01:00:30:13
Kevin
Cool. Yeah, yeah. So,

01:00:30:16 - 01:00:31:01
Kevin
I.

01:00:31:01 - 01:00:33:06
Kevin
Was man, it's it's so this.

01:00:33:06 - 01:00:47:26
Kevin
Was about a month before he passed, I believe. And I don't know what year that was, but, Yeah, I was hanging around in the valley at this point. I had climbed, you know, one route on El Cap, a pretty easy one. Triple direct, which.

01:00:47:29 - 01:00:48:17
Kevin
First.

01:00:48:19 - 01:00:49:05
Kevin
Is basically.

01:00:49:05 - 01:00:49:26
Kevin
Free blast.

01:00:49:26 - 01:00:54:02
Kevin
Into the middle of the near wall and then, like, two independent pitches and then you finish on the nose.

01:00:54:05 - 01:00:56:08
Kevin
So it's a great way to, like.

01:00:56:11 - 01:01:09:11
Kevin
It's not crowded. Basically. And it's a great way to get up El cap. So I like that El Cap route. And I was hanging around in the cafeteria with my friends and, and Brad kind of famously was like looking for.

01:01:09:14 - 01:01:10:15
Kevin
A partner, basically.

01:01:10:15 - 01:01:32:02
Kevin
Looking for a blay and chugging slave. And he was working on freeing. He wanted to free the nose. And, in a day, he he wasn't going to, but by my understanding. And we hung out one, one morning, basically. So that's all I know of. Brad is kind of my one morning with him and these little exchanges, but my understanding was he wasn't interested in doing it over multiple days.

01:01:32:02 - 01:01:37:18
Kevin
He was like doing it in a day. And he was looking for somebody to jug and ballet him, you know, and.

01:01:37:18 - 01:01:38:02
Kevin
All my.

01:01:38:02 - 01:01:40:06
Kevin
Friends who had not ever really climbed walls were.

01:01:40:06 - 01:01:55:03
Kevin
Like, yeah, me, I want to do that. I want to do that. And I like knew what was involved. And I was like, I don't want to do that. Like, that's so much. Yeah, that's so much work. And I'm going to have to like take two days off after that to like recover. And, you know, and so I was just.

01:01:55:03 - 01:02:02:12
Kevin
Kind of like not interested. And then, and, and everyone else didn't have any experience. So,

01:02:02:14 - 01:02:03:25
Kevin
And so then Brad later.

01:02:03:25 - 01:02:07:23
Kevin
Like, got my number from one of those friends and texted me.

01:02:08:00 - 01:02:11:11
Kevin
And at that point, all he knew about me because I told him, like.

01:02:11:13 - 01:02:14:13
Kevin
How to meet up with me. I was like, oh yeah, I've got.

01:02:14:15 - 01:02:15:19
Kevin
Basically he said, oh.

01:02:15:19 - 01:02:28:27
Kevin
Would you be down to just do a don't run so up, you know, I don't know what it is, 11 pitches or something. And I was like, okay, sure. Like I'll do adult run with you, you know? And he was like, oh yeah, let's meet in the morning here. And I was like, okay, sweet. You know, my van's got Florida plates on it.

01:02:29:00 - 01:02:30:03
Kevin
So all he knew.

01:02:30:03 - 01:02:36:03
Kevin
About me at that point was I had climbed Triple Direct and I had Florida. I was from Florida, as far as he knew. I'm not from Florida, but.

01:02:36:06 - 01:02:41:08
Kevin
You know, and he's just like, yep, let's rope up my let's go climb, you know, El Cap basically.

01:02:41:11 - 01:02:42:29
Kevin
And

01:02:43:02 - 01:02:43:21
Kevin
And yeah, so.

01:02:43:21 - 01:02:47:20
Kevin
We met up in the morning, you know, I, I made some joke about, like.

01:02:47:20 - 01:02:48:23
Kevin
You're Alex, right.

01:02:48:23 - 01:02:53:25
Kevin
And and I don't think that went over too well with him, but,

01:02:53:28 - 01:02:57:29
Kevin
And then, yeah, you know, pretty much, you know, we chat on the walk in, you know.

01:02:58:01 - 01:03:01:18
Kevin
15, 20 minutes to the base of the base of the nose, and then and then we're off.

01:03:01:21 - 01:03:04:11
Kevin
You know, he like, you know, it's a bit of a.

01:03:04:11 - 01:03:07:25
Kevin
Scramble to where you're going to start the nose and, and, I.

01:03:07:25 - 01:03:08:26
Kevin
Think somebody had left, like.

01:03:08:26 - 01:03:10:10
Kevin
A whole bag hanging off a nut.

01:03:10:10 - 01:03:13:21
Kevin
Or something. And I think and I was like a guide, you know, like, I knew.

01:03:13:23 - 01:03:15:18
Kevin
I kind of knew what was doing, what was up.

01:03:15:18 - 01:03:25:09
Kevin
And I think he'd, like, clipped me to the nut or something. And he said something about like, you know, or safety, you know, clipping to this nut. And I was like, okay, you know. And then he goes and.

01:03:25:12 - 01:03:31:09
Kevin
You know, and just runs it out like 50ft into like 11 plus, you know, insecure, you know.

01:03:31:12 - 01:03:34:07
Kevin
Finger like those first pitches to aid climber.

01:03:34:07 - 01:03:39:15
Kevin
Kind of tricky, you know, in the free climb especially so. And then yeah, I was just ride in Brad's heels.

01:03:39:15 - 01:03:40:19
Kevin
For, for really.

01:03:40:19 - 01:03:52:06
Kevin
The morning. It was pretty quick up to, up to to dolt. And, he was stashing some water and, man, that guy could, you know, fly up that rock. And it was.

01:03:52:08 - 01:03:53:00
Kevin
Really.

01:03:53:00 - 01:04:09:04
Kevin
An impressive. You know, he really shrunk. He shrunk El cap for me. You know, it's like when you see someone performing on their stage, you know, just to get a glimpse of that. It's just like it just. Wow. It really changes your perspective on the whole activity. And I'm like, what the hell am I doing? You know, like.

01:04:09:07 - 01:04:16:14
Kevin
You know, it's like, am I doing this all wrong? Should I be like, running it out like that? And like, do I do you really only need to, like, fiddle and nut in.

01:04:16:14 - 01:04:17:14
Kevin
Here and there or.

01:04:17:17 - 01:04:18:23
Kevin
You know, and of course.

01:04:18:23 - 01:04:26:06
Kevin
He's like a master of his craft and and you know, that was in his first rodeo on, on out the nose, as we would all know. But,

01:04:26:09 - 01:04:27:22
Kevin
You know, I was kind of like.

01:04:27:25 - 01:04:30:14
Kevin
In the wake of, of climbing with him, I was kind of just like.

01:04:30:14 - 01:04:33:01
Kevin
Wow, that was a really big departure.

01:04:33:01 - 01:04:36:18
Kevin
From how I go about climbing. And that's why I'm not go right. Right.

01:04:36:20 - 01:04:42:03
Kevin
And on our descent, you know, and I, you know, comically, like, he didn't know anything about me.

01:04:42:03 - 01:04:47:21
Kevin
He didn't know that I'm, I, you know, would have thought of myself as a pretty competent climber, you know, pretty fast.

01:04:47:23 - 01:04:52:10
Kevin
You know, jump on. You know, I'm pretty fast. I like jug like an absolute demon.

01:04:52:10 - 01:04:55:08
Kevin
It's something I've. I've trained, you know, and and,

01:04:55:10 - 01:04:58:12
Kevin
I was hoping to get some kind of like, hey, you don't actually suck.

01:04:58:12 - 01:04:59:28
Kevin
From him or something like that, you know?

01:05:00:05 - 01:05:00:28
Kevin
And I got, I.

01:05:00:28 - 01:05:07:19
Kevin
Got nothing from him, which, you know, fair enough. I mean, he's used to climbing with, you know, the heroes of our sport.

01:05:07:19 - 01:05:08:09
Kevin
So.

01:05:09:12 - 01:05:11:02
Kevin
But, yeah. And then on our descent, you know.

01:05:11:02 - 01:05:13:14
Kevin
We were using a rope. It was an 80 meter rope that had been.

01:05:13:14 - 01:05:17:08
Kevin
Chopped at some point, and so he wasn't sure how long it was.

01:05:17:15 - 01:05:26:03
Kevin
We were simul wrapping, you know, at one point he was wrapping down ahead of me and he was like.

01:05:26:05 - 01:05:33:03
Kevin
He was like, oh, I didn't make it to the anchor. So I'm only I'm only on one ball. You know, if you want to stop.

01:05:33:06 - 01:05:38:03
Kevin
At the anchor, you know, and then pick me up or whatever, or we can just go off this one ball.

01:05:38:05 - 01:05:49:25
Kevin
And I remember I'm kind of embarrassed to say this, but I literally said out loud, I was like, when in Rome? Like, I'm never I've never wrapped off a single pole or would never do that. But I was just like, it's it's it's expert Halo a.

01:05:49:25 - 01:05:51:23
Kevin
Classically, you know, this decision making bias.

01:05:51:23 - 01:05:55:00
Kevin
It's like, well, you know, or like or like.

01:05:55:00 - 01:05:57:11
Kevin
Not wanting him to think I'm a nerd or something for like.

01:05:57:11 - 01:06:02:05
Kevin
Stopping. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and so we, we've wrapped off a single ball, you know.

01:06:02:07 - 01:06:04:08
Kevin
And

01:06:04:10 - 01:06:07:11
Kevin
And and. Yeah. And I think.

01:06:07:11 - 01:06:08:01
Kevin
You know, I.

01:06:08:01 - 01:06:08:26
Kevin
It would be.

01:06:08:26 - 01:06:17:02
Kevin
Pure speculation, but, you know, I think that's probably the rope he was using a month later when, when he, you know, he had had his accident and,

01:06:17:04 - 01:06:18:27
Kevin
You know, I would bet I would bet we weren't.

01:06:18:27 - 01:06:24:26
Kevin
Tying knots in both ends when we were, when I was simmo wrapping with him, you know, and, and a.

01:06:24:26 - 01:06:29:19
Kevin
Lot of people don't. Right. And I think a lot of big. And that's why this happened.

01:06:29:19 - 01:06:37:21
Kyle
I like I'd say I'm more after a lot and I don't think that it's like something you have to do every time

01:06:37:29 - 01:06:40:09
Kevin
Do what? Pull up the. Yeah.

01:06:40:09 - 01:06:43:26
Kyle
It's not something that's like 100% must be done.

01:06:44:15 - 01:06:46:11
Kevin
I think there's very few absolutes.

01:06:46:11 - 01:06:47:19
Kevin
In in climbing, you know.

01:06:47:21 - 01:06:48:02
Kevin
Which is.

01:06:48:02 - 01:06:51:26
Kevin
What makes it so interesting and what makes the arguments in the Instagram tick tick comment.

01:06:51:26 - 01:06:53:18
Kevin
So kind of like, I don't know.

01:06:53:20 - 01:07:20:23
Kevin
Maybe on the on in its best sense. Interesting. But, everyone, you know feels very, you know, strongly about things. Yeah, I would, I would never say, you know, there's very few absolutes for me, you know, but I think, I mean, we got the bodies, right. We got the bodies to prove, you know, and and, you know, I push and and it's something I've taught, free webinars on something I've been doing and, pre rigged repels or stacked repels as just kind of like the solution to this.

01:07:20:28 - 01:07:21:21
Kevin
Maybe a few.

01:07:21:21 - 01:07:42:01
Kevin
Seconds slower than than, similar repel. You know, I've wrapped with the client down 25 pitches in Mexico and we're done. And I don't remember my time, but, like, it's fine. We it's a couple hours, you know, it's no big deal. And, the beauty of a pre rigged repel and, like, do your own research. But you don't you, you actually only need a knot in one of the ends.

01:07:42:03 - 01:07:43:06
Kevin
So classically when we work a.

01:07:43:06 - 01:07:43:23
Kevin
Repel, we.

01:07:43:23 - 01:07:48:10
Kevin
Poke the end through. We tie a knot. I would recommend clipping that to yourself. So it doesn't blow somewhere weird.

01:07:48:12 - 01:07:54:11
Kevin
And then you pull the rope, and then that other end falls down beautifully down the pitch perfectly.

01:07:54:14 - 01:07:56:23
Kevin
But it doesn't have a knot in it. And what do we all do?

01:07:56:24 - 01:07:57:13
Kevin
We're like, okay.

01:07:57:13 - 01:07:59:20
Kevin
Pinky promise we just won't wrap off the end, right?

01:07:59:22 - 01:08:00:26
Kevin
And that's how we.

01:08:00:26 - 01:08:14:15
Kevin
Find again, end up with these accidents. Right. And so by doing a pre-record repel, you don't actually have to pull up that end. It's fine to just block the one. And again, do your own research. You know, I'm not going to be able to describe it all, but,

01:08:14:18 - 01:08:16:29
Kevin
Yeah, yeah. So I.

01:08:16:29 - 01:08:20:02
Kevin
Think, I think similar wrapping, it's something I've done a lot.

01:08:20:03 - 01:08:20:17
Kevin
Of.

01:08:20:17 - 01:08:29:20
Kevin
And, and I think I've pretty much fully switched to stack repels even in my personal climbing. And, recommend people look into it and really like.

01:08:29:20 - 01:08:33:22
Kevin
Think like if you're, if you're wrapping a four pitch route, it's like.

01:08:33:22 - 01:08:35:03
Kevin
Come on, you don't.

01:08:35:03 - 01:08:39:10
Kevin
Need the speed. You know, like, you know, you don't need those three extra.

01:08:39:10 - 01:08:43:26
Kevin
Seconds or like even, you know, wrapping the 25 pitches. It's like, I don't need.

01:08:43:28 - 01:08:45:19
Kevin
I can take 20 minutes.

01:08:45:19 - 01:08:48:17
Kevin
Longer on 25 pitches or whatever. And it's not.

01:08:48:19 - 01:08:50:07
Kevin
You know, it's doubling.

01:08:50:07 - 01:08:56:15
Kevin
It's doubling the risk. If we look at risk as the equation of risk equals probability times consequence.

01:08:56:18 - 01:08:59:09
Kevin
Yeah, exactly. We've doubled the consequence by.

01:08:59:09 - 01:08:59:14
Kevin
By

01:08:59:14 - 01:09:03:00
Kevin
someone repelling and and

01:09:03:02 - 01:09:04:14
Kevin
Again, I'm not like.

01:09:04:16 - 01:09:10:22
Kevin
I'm not some armchair nerd that's just like, you know, don't don't, you know, don't time or repel or whatever. I've done it a ton.

01:09:10:22 - 01:09:15:01
Kevin
And it's a useful tool. It's it can be a really useful tool if you're searching.

01:09:15:01 - 01:09:18:11
Kevin
For repel stations. And one of you goes a little bit too far and the.

01:09:18:11 - 01:09:18:26
Kevin
Other stays a.

01:09:18:26 - 01:09:20:11
Kevin
Little high, you can counterbalance.

01:09:20:11 - 01:09:22:11
Kevin
Yourselves back up so it can it can.

01:09:22:11 - 01:09:29:23
Kevin
Be a can be a useful tool. But, but, yeah. Anyway, it's it's a very.

01:09:29:23 - 01:09:31:21
Kevin
Talked about subject.

01:09:31:21 - 01:09:36:29
Kyle
and his effect on your risk management strategies in the moment.

01:09:37:20 - 01:09:39:14
Kevin
You know, in the, in the moment right there.

01:09:39:14 - 01:09:48:28
Kevin
I mean, I just threw it all out the window, you know, to be to be perfectly honest, I'm not proud of that. And, and, I was I mean, I'm a, I was.

01:09:48:28 - 01:09:51:17
Kevin
A, I don't think I was a certified rock guide at.

01:09:51:17 - 01:09:57:11
Kevin
The time, but, I am now, and and but I was certainly an a working guide, and and,

01:09:57:14 - 01:09:58:11
Kevin
You really the.

01:09:58:11 - 01:10:07:13
Kevin
Leader in my climbing parties are like, you know, kind of would take that role, and I just given it all up, basically. And, I.

01:10:07:13 - 01:10:09:22
Kevin
Think, I think maybe other people do that.

01:10:09:22 - 01:10:32:22
Kevin
Too, sometimes when, when they perceive somebody as having more status, or maybe they're a hard climber in the gym, and then you go outside and then you just kind of like offload everything onto them and, and, yeah. And I did it too. I saw it firsthand for myself and, and own that. But, you know, because it would have been, it would have cost really nothing for me to stop at the proper ballet station and, and, and move through.

01:10:32:22 - 01:10:43:07
Kevin
But, you know, pretty much that that day. I mean, I don't think we spent even quite six hours together, going up to adult and back down to the ground, so you could stash water.

01:10:43:07 - 01:10:45:03
Kevin
But it did make me consider, you.

01:10:45:03 - 01:10:45:11
Kevin
Know.

01:10:45:11 - 01:10:46:14
Kevin
It was totally a.

01:10:46:14 - 01:10:52:14
Kevin
Different angle on risk than than I was used to. And it made me wonder if I was just, like, playing the game.

01:10:52:16 - 01:10:55:05
Kevin
Way, like, way overly safe.

01:10:55:05 - 01:11:06:27
Kevin
You know, I'd never had it. And I still have never had any accidents or anything. And, you know, a month later I kind of got got my answer, you know, in a, in a morbid way.

01:11:06:29 - 01:11:08:00
Kevin
And it didn't it.

01:11:08:00 - 01:11:27:14
Kevin
Didn't change how I was. It changed how was behaving in that moment. Kind of under his, just aura of like, oh, my gosh, this guy's incredible. And I kind of want to fit in and I want, you know, that sort of stuff. But ultimately, I, I didn't start trying to be Radko Bright, you know, because I it because I never could.

01:11:27:17 - 01:11:31:01
Kevin
But yeah, it was such an interesting insight.

01:11:31:04 - 01:11:32:07
Kevin
And he.

01:11:32:10 - 01:11:37:29
Kevin
Yeah, it was incredible. I feel so lucky. I mean, I see similar behind Brad go bright in the stove leg cracks.

01:11:37:29 - 01:11:38:09
Kevin
Like, how.

01:11:38:09 - 01:11:40:18
Kevin
Fricking cool is that? You know, it's like.

01:11:40:21 - 01:11:42:21
Kevin
Like, yeah, that's a that's amazing.

01:11:42:21 - 01:11:48:01
Kevin
And I was friggin flying and, Yeah. Mantled up onto to.

01:11:48:03 - 01:12:11:29
Kevin
And yeah, he kind of had nothing to say to me. I was like, yeah. I was like, dude, that was pretty good, right? Like, you like, you know, I'm from Florida. Like, that's it. You know, like, I'm like, I can. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I was like, give me something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:12:11:29 - 01:12:26:02
Kyle
risk management, why do you feel like I would say it's. I don't know if it's common or not, but why do we take on unnecessary risk for a grade A send or an on site or whatever the reason might be?

01:12:27:11 - 01:12:29:10
Kevin
Man, you know, I think.

01:12:29:12 - 01:12:32:19
Kevin
I think we don't know. We're doing it in the moment, really.

01:12:32:21 - 01:12:35:05
Kevin
I think when you get into that space, like you're.

01:12:35:05 - 01:12:45:24
Kevin
You're in it. You're on the climb, you're in the moment there. You're not really considering, actually how hazardous like the activity you're doing is. Right. And, and,

01:12:45:26 - 01:12:46:13
Kevin
I think I.

01:12:46:13 - 01:12:48:02
Kevin
Think that's a part of it. You're not really.

01:12:48:02 - 01:12:52:02
Kevin
Aware. And I think we get away.

01:12:52:02 - 01:12:58:14
Kevin
With a lot in climbing. And so that kind of colors, our understanding of the risks, you know, it's like.

01:12:58:21 - 01:13:00:15
Kevin
It's it's it's not the.

01:13:00:15 - 01:13:08:27
Kevin
Most forgiving sport, for sure, but there's, you know, other activities that that are certainly less forgiving. And I think we get kind of these what would it be like a.

01:13:08:27 - 01:13:10:09
Kevin
False positive.

01:13:10:09 - 01:13:15:14
Kevin
Rate of where like we run it out and we get away with it. We run it, you know, we we punch.

01:13:15:14 - 01:13:16:24
Kevin
Through the crux to the good.

01:13:16:24 - 01:13:24:06
Kevin
Hole and we get away with it. You know, over and over and over again. But it kind of only takes it only takes the wants. And, I think we just.

01:13:24:06 - 01:13:25:13
Kevin
Yeah, we just kind of get we.

01:13:25:13 - 01:13:31:03
Kevin
Get caught up in the moment and we don't really, we don't quite understand.

01:13:32:29 - 01:13:40:25
Kevin
Maybe all the risks, you know, I see it all the time where climbers are pushing their grade on, on gear.

01:13:40:27 - 01:13:51:13
Kevin
And it's like their feet are like two feet above a piece, which is already like, that's a that's a fall. If you don't take that fall skill skillfully, that's going to be bad, right? Especially if it's.

01:13:51:13 - 01:13:53:27
Kevin
On a lower angle climb. Right.

01:13:53:29 - 01:14:09:07
Kevin
And then the next piece is like way below that. And it's like, man, if you fall skillfully, you'll be okay. But if that piece pops, which gear pops? It happens. Well, gear pops.

01:14:09:09 - 01:14:10:26
Kevin
I mean, I'm not trying to fear monger, but.

01:14:11:02 - 01:14:20:25
Kevin
Like that there's an element of chaos here, right? And let alone gear popping. What's on that? Can a wire gate? When do we trust our life to a single wire gate?

01:14:20:25 - 01:14:22:12
Kevin
Carabiner?

01:14:22:14 - 01:14:37:08
Kevin
We tried to never. But I mean, we do, right? The first bolt on a sport climb can be, you know, after a before a big run out. That can be a really key piece. And, and. Yeah. And so like, it's like, oh, man, I'm sitting there, I'm kind of like gripped because I can tell this is kind.

01:14:37:08 - 01:14:54:24
Kevin
Of challenging for them. And but they're not really stacking, stacking the odds for themselves, you know, and it's like when I climb stuff that's challenging for me. I mean, I'm putting in a lot of gear, you know, I'm double. I'm doubling, setting things up. I'm building a whole system. You know, so that something can fail.

01:14:55:00 - 01:14:55:07
Kevin
You know.

01:14:55:07 - 01:15:01:16
Kevin
It's funny, when we first talked on the phone, I'd pulled one piece of gear in my climbing career. A bit of an update on that. I've now.

01:15:01:16 - 01:15:02:27
Kevin
Pulled three pieces.

01:15:02:27 - 01:15:03:20
Kevin
Of gear in.

01:15:03:20 - 01:15:11:07
Kevin
Total. But all of that's been totally benign, right? Yeah. Exactly. Right. It's like.

01:15:11:07 - 01:15:14:24
Kevin
And and part of that can be luck. I'm not going to say that there's that.

01:15:14:24 - 01:15:18:12
Kevin
I'm just like, the best. You know, I'm the most skilled at managing these risks or whatever.

01:15:18:12 - 01:15:19:28
Kevin
But it's like, yeah, the piece pops.

01:15:19:28 - 01:15:22:11
Kevin
And then I fall six more inches onto the one that's.

01:15:22:11 - 01:15:25:17
Kevin
Backing it up, you know, or I fall further. But it's all clean.

01:15:25:17 - 01:15:28:06
Kevin
Or whatever it is. And, and,

01:15:28:08 - 01:15:29:10
Kevin
I think we maybe don't see.

01:15:29:10 - 01:15:31:28
Kevin
That in climbing media or we think that's sewing it up.

01:15:32:05 - 01:15:34:03
Kevin
I've posted videos of students.

01:15:34:03 - 01:15:36:26
Kevin
On our more advanced track climbing course, and they're climbing.

01:15:36:26 - 01:15:37:13
Kevin
Their first.

01:15:37:13 - 01:15:38:08
Kevin
Five nine trad.

01:15:38:08 - 01:15:59:16
Kevin
Lead, and people are commenting and they're like, why are they placing so much gear? And I'm like, screw you. I'm like this. That's so rude. You know, it's like, this is what this is what, like recalibrate your brain. This is what maybe it's not what it should look like. I don't want to project that, but it's like, this is what climbing can look like.

01:15:59:20 - 01:16:03:08
Kevin
And I think it's a really smart way to go for longevity.

01:16:03:08 - 01:16:04:00
Kevin
You know what I mean?

01:16:04:05 - 01:16:12:28
Kevin
I know people that don't climb like that. I know people that place the one piece of gear. And it's like a lot of those people who place the one piece of gear, you can ask them about their accidents and you can.

01:16:12:28 - 01:16:14:18
Kevin
Ask them about their near-misses. Right.

01:16:14:18 - 01:16:17:07
Kevin
And they'll tell you them and.

01:16:21:25 - 01:16:26:28
Kevin
Yes.

01:16:27:00 - 01:16:28:21
Kevin
Yes.

01:16:33:10 - 01:16:37:16
Kevin
Yeah, totally.

01:16:37:16 - 01:16:43:12
Kyle
climbing is knowing your like there's like this percentage in my brain of like how connected I am to

01:16:44:00 - 01:16:45:17
Kevin
Totally.

01:16:45:17 - 01:16:49:12
Kyle
starts going really high, like wow, I'm like 90% going to come off, plug in

01:16:49:28 - 01:16:51:10
Kevin
Yeah. For sure.

01:16:51:10 - 01:17:03:12
Kyle
0%, I'm going to keep them on my rack. It's like, that's the relationship we need to build with ourselves. It's not like, oh, just place less gear. Oh, just so it up, it's like there's this dance, there's this eloquent kind of understanding we

01:17:03:12 - 01:17:05:21
Kevin
yeah. You know, I'm I'm a fan.

01:17:05:22 - 01:17:07:01
Kevin
Of, like, kind of the idea.

01:17:07:01 - 01:17:12:08
Kevin
Of having two pieces between you in the hospital. Like, I like that idea. I think that's we.

01:17:12:08 - 01:17:13:07
Kevin
Can't really always.

01:17:13:07 - 01:17:15:23
Kevin
Do that necessarily. But if we expand.

01:17:15:23 - 01:17:18:09
Kevin
That, to be one of those pieces can be movement.

01:17:18:11 - 01:17:19:14
Kevin
Right. So let's say you're.

01:17:19:14 - 01:17:35:08
Kevin
Just locked in on five six okay. So one piece is my movement. And then the other piece is that one piece down there, you know, and then you know, and then as the climbing gets harder, okay, no longer can I rely on my movement because I'm not, you know, for your terms, like, not as connected to the rock.

01:17:35:11 - 01:17:42:05
Kevin
So now I need, you know, 2 to 2 pieces in, two pieces that are actually going to do something, you know, it's like.

01:17:42:05 - 01:17:45:12
Kevin
Two, two pieces having a fall.

01:17:45:12 - 01:17:48:08
Kevin
That I'm down to take. You know, it's not like, well, it's that one. And then it's.

01:17:48:08 - 01:17:49:00
Kevin
Like flow.

01:17:49:06 - 01:17:50:14
Kevin
You know.

01:17:50:16 - 01:17:59:20
Kevin
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. And like, you know, place the gear to get into the crux and place in the middle of the crux. Do it. Okay. You maybe you.

01:17:59:20 - 01:18:02:08
Kevin
Ruined your send of this one. This one pitch.

01:18:02:11 - 01:18:08:03
Kevin
Who cares? You're surviving. And then also you're gaining those skills to be able to.

01:18:08:03 - 01:18:09:28
Kevin
Place under duress onto the on the.

01:18:09:28 - 01:18:12:24
Kevin
Next route. You know, it's like, okay. Yeah.

01:18:12:24 - 01:18:17:04
Kevin
Ideally you're not placing in the middle of the crux because that's not efficient movement wise.

01:18:17:08 - 01:18:20:29
Kevin
But guess what? You know, when you move to the next grade, more.

01:18:20:29 - 01:18:23:29
Kevin
Of the climbing is going to feel like crux and you're going to have to place in.

01:18:23:29 - 01:18:35:02
Kevin
It. Right. So you're just building the skills for later. And yeah, you blow it, you fall off. Whatever. Cool. Nice. Good. Go. You know where to stay safe. And and I think, yeah, we, we celebrate.

01:18:35:02 - 01:18:36:27
Kevin
When we punch it through and we get away with.

01:18:36:27 - 01:18:37:04
Kevin
It.

01:18:37:04 - 01:18:41:25
Kevin
We get hoots and hollows, we get, you know, pats on the back and and,

01:18:41:28 - 01:18:42:24
Kevin
Yeah.

01:18:42:26 - 01:18:45:08
Kevin
And, really, we should be, you know, did.

01:18:45:08 - 01:18:46:06
Kevin
I get away with that.

01:18:46:06 - 01:18:48:13
Kevin
Or did I masterfully.

01:18:48:13 - 01:18:51:25
Kevin
Execute, you know, not I was saying you can't, like, try.

01:18:51:25 - 01:18:54:20
Kevin
To the point of, like, maximum effort.

01:18:54:20 - 01:18:55:25
Kevin
I love that.

01:18:55:29 - 01:18:59:26
Kevin
That's like my favorite thing. But,

01:18:59:29 - 01:19:00:19
Kevin
But, yeah, you should.

01:19:00:19 - 01:19:03:06
Kevin
Have some gear. And, you know, when you're doing that and.

01:19:03:06 - 01:19:07:11
Kevin
And and to and and the beauty, I mean the, the curse of it all is like.

01:19:07:11 - 01:19:08:09
Kevin
Hey, when you climb harder.

01:19:08:09 - 01:19:09:10
Kevin
Grades, it's like the falls.

01:19:09:10 - 01:19:16:07
Kevin
Are cleaner. You can fall a bit further. And, I mean, I think that's one of such an amazing feeling. Went on, citing trad climbing is you're.

01:19:16:14 - 01:19:17:06
Kevin
Doing all these.

01:19:17:06 - 01:19:19:20
Kevin
Calculations all, all at once and.

01:19:19:23 - 01:19:31:14
Kevin
And like, do I need a place again? Is this fall clean? This falls clean. Just go for it. Execute. You know, and then like you put a piece in how good is that piece. Do I need to double up. And it's all live. It's all happening. It's all like just so visceral.

01:19:31:14 - 01:19:32:18
Kevin
And in your face. And I think.

01:19:32:25 - 01:19:39:26
Kevin
In this day and age, not a lot of things are that like whole like that. You know, we don't.

01:19:39:28 - 01:19:46:18
Kevin
I mean, our life is a lot online. It's stuff on a screen and it's like we don't feel the consequences of it. But then in that moment it's just like.

01:19:46:18 - 01:19:47:03
Kevin
Whoa.

01:19:47:11 - 01:19:50:23
Kevin
That's like, that's living, you know?

01:19:50:25 - 01:19:53:29
Kevin
And something I would encourage people to do is, is.

01:19:54:01 - 01:19:58:08
Kevin
Engage with falling like a and I don't I'm not being so explicit.

01:19:58:08 - 01:19:59:10
Kevin
As like fall like.

01:19:59:17 - 01:20:00:19
Kevin
I'm just saying like engage with.

01:20:00:19 - 01:20:02:02
Kevin
It like practice it, explore.

01:20:02:02 - 01:20:04:00
Kevin
It, you know, in.

01:20:04:00 - 01:20:16:15
Kevin
In some sort of controlled way. Because how do you know if you're going to hit that ledge or how far that fall is? You take falls, you start to build a repertoire of, okay, if I fall, you know, 30ft away.

01:20:16:15 - 01:20:18:29
Kevin
From my belay or and the and I'm clipped.

01:20:18:29 - 01:20:21:08
Kevin
Above me, okay. I actually fall five feet.

01:20:21:08 - 01:20:27:06
Kevin
Whoa. That's surprising. You know, I didn't think that. I thought I was on a top rope. And then you fall above that and you fall, you know, and just.

01:20:27:06 - 01:20:29:02
Kevin
Start to build the. Or maybe.

01:20:29:02 - 01:20:30:12
Kevin
Oh, if my center of mass is.

01:20:30:12 - 01:20:32:15
Kevin
To the right of my last piece of gear.

01:20:32:16 - 01:20:38:24
Kevin
Okay, then. Now there's a swing component. And, you know, falling is terrifying when it's the unknown. And the more we can start.

01:20:38:24 - 01:20:39:07
Kevin
To chip.

01:20:39:07 - 01:20:41:18
Kevin
Away at that, I think,

01:20:41:20 - 01:20:42:28
Kevin
We get safer.

01:20:42:28 - 01:20:43:21
Kevin
Because we know.

01:20:43:21 - 01:20:45:08
Kevin
How to fall. There's there's a skill.

01:20:45:08 - 01:20:49:10
Kevin
To falling, especially outdoors, especially on not overhanging stuff.

01:20:49:10 - 01:20:49:25
Kevin
Like if.

01:20:49:25 - 01:20:51:05
Kevin
You're falling on A57, you're.

01:20:51:05 - 01:20:51:22
Kevin
Probably.

01:20:51:22 - 01:20:55:23
Kevin
Contacting the rock as you're moving down. And so there's.

01:20:55:23 - 01:20:56:11
Kevin
A skill to that.

01:20:56:11 - 01:21:03:18
Kevin
And you can, you know, you can gain an, an understanding and, and, and, and start to.

01:21:03:18 - 01:21:06:04
Kevin
Master.

01:21:06:07 - 01:21:08:11
Kevin
That art and at least have some data to go off.

01:21:08:11 - 01:21:18:18
Kevin
Instead of like, I think falling is okay. Everyone says try until you fall or whatever. And Tommy says he's taking like 600ft falls down El Cap, so this should be.

01:21:18:18 - 01:21:19:09
Kevin
Fine, you know?

01:21:19:09 - 01:21:24:05
Kevin
And it's like, no, you gotta like and that's so scary. It's either scary or you're completely.

01:21:24:05 - 01:21:29:23
Kevin
Disassociating, you know, and if you can engage with falls, I'm still I'm not scared of.

01:21:29:23 - 01:21:30:22
Kevin
Fall. I fall probably.

01:21:30:22 - 01:21:33:17
Kevin
More than any guide in in America on like, client.

01:21:33:17 - 01:21:34:01
Kevin
Ballets.

01:21:34:08 - 01:21:41:08
Kevin
I fall every time I'm out with somebody. I was teaching leadership selling today, and I was falling because I'm showing the system. I'm showing how it works. We're talking about why.

01:21:41:08 - 01:21:45:13
Kevin
Do I fall this far? How did I move my body through the air, you know, all that sort of stuff.

01:21:45:13 - 01:21:46:20
Kevin
And,

01:21:46:23 - 01:21:48:14
Kevin
And I'm still scared of the falls that.

01:21:48:14 - 01:21:50:01
Kevin
I don't have experience with.

01:21:50:03 - 01:21:54:03
Kevin
If I'm up into the side, I haven't done that fall a lot.

01:21:54:08 - 01:22:00:29
Kevin
And so it's scary for me, you know? And it's all just about building that, that data and,

01:22:01:01 - 01:22:01:19
Kevin
And doing.

01:22:01:19 - 01:22:03:08
Kevin
It as smart way and not in a way that.

01:22:03:15 - 01:22:05:01
Kevin
Okay, I have to climb above the.

01:22:05:01 - 01:22:06:26
Kevin
Gear and jump off. That's fall practice.

01:22:06:26 - 01:22:14:03
Kevin
No, be below the gear. Fall. Every step should be boring. And and the gym is not a great teacher for.

01:22:14:03 - 01:22:20:16
Kevin
This because you're only climbing overhanging walls in the gym. That's not necessarily the best teacher for learning how to fall outside.

01:22:20:16 - 01:22:23:09
Kevin
Or, but yeah.

01:22:23:09 - 01:22:24:25
Kevin
That's, an encouragement.

01:22:24:25 - 01:22:35:05
Kevin
To to folks. I see people practice falling. They just go above stuff, they go falling and then they fall. It doesn't go very well. And now they're more scared, more terrified.

01:22:35:05 - 01:22:40:23
Kevin
You know, they learn nothing. Now they have a fear injury and they kind of hold themselves back. So.

01:22:40:23 - 01:22:57:16
Kyle
actual practical application towards, like, on sighting routes or climbing trade routes? Because for me, this whole topic of like not falling, you're not trying has been like a very kind of main thread in my, in my climbing for the last year because I've been pushing the, you know, pushing, climbing harder than I ever have.

01:22:57:16 - 01:23:22:22
Kyle
And so it's like falling is definitely a part of it. I can't avoid it. But basically what I've come to the understanding here with my own climbing is that I will never choose to fall. I'm never going to like, let go of the wall and say falling. Like if I you know, if I get to a place where I think, you know, I'm pumped out, I'm like breathing crazy and I'm like, you know, I'm not performing well.

01:23:22:22 - 01:23:40:08
Kyle
And I know that, like, the chances of me successfully, you know, doing the crux are really low. I'm going to put a piece in, I'm going to take I'm going to calm down. I'm going to relax my nervous system, and then I'm going to go for it with a calm head and good gear and just punch it and like, be okay with the chance that I could come off and I do fall.

01:23:40:08 - 01:23:59:25
Kyle
But the only times I do fall are if my foot pops or like a hold breaks or something. Like those are the situations where I'll actually fall. And that's kind of like the mentality that I've been developing and that I've been kind of like promoting at least with my own social group, like talk to me about that mentality and kind of how you see it.

01:23:59:28 - 01:24:02:02
Kyle
Maybe it's a limiting belief, like, you

01:24:03:14 - 01:24:05:13
Kevin
Yeah, sure. You know, I mean.

01:24:05:13 - 01:24:28:15
Kevin
I think, I don't think anyone should base their relationship on falling on a, on what. Anything anyone like I'm going to say or like anyone says. Right. Because yeah I, I enjoy falling, I enjoy climbing to my limit and falling off. And that's a way I enjoy engaging with the sport. But it doesn't mean that somebody else who's not doing that is doing the sport wrong, at all.

01:24:28:16 - 01:24:40:07
Kevin
You know, and, and, you know, I think, especially when we're a lot of, like, younger people that are more maybe are a bit more risk tolerant or have other, you know.

01:24:40:10 - 01:24:40:22
Kevin
Are willing.

01:24:40:23 - 01:24:41:09
Kevin
To engage.

01:24:41:09 - 01:24:44:05
Kevin
With that. It's going to be different than somebody. People from different.

01:24:44:05 - 01:24:57:27
Kevin
Walks of life or different ages or etc. and to, to say, you know, you should be climbing this way or that way is, you know, is insane. And and, and we shouldn't. Yeah. Make people feel bad about how they're engaging, engaging with the sport.

01:24:57:29 - 01:25:03:07
Kevin
I think I think if you are trying to improve, like.

01:25:03:07 - 01:25:12:04
Kevin
You're going to bump into falling, right? For my climbing. Falling as a part of climbing. I don't care if people choose to engage with the sport the same way I think if they.

01:25:12:04 - 01:25:13:21
Kevin
Are going to engage with falling.

01:25:13:21 - 01:25:21:20
Kevin
Or have that being a possibility, they should kind of study falling like how I just described and understand it. Otherwise you're just playing.

01:25:21:20 - 01:25:23:21
Kevin
With, you know, you have no clue what game.

01:25:23:21 - 01:25:30:12
Kevin
You're even playing. You know, you're just playing with fire and you and you don't know, you don't know what could even happen. But,

01:25:30:15 - 01:25:36:04
Kevin
Yeah, I mean, I like, I, I fall, in something along what you.

01:25:36:04 - 01:25:39:04
Kevin
Said, you know, like, you don't fall basically, intentionally is what I

01:25:39:04 - 01:25:41:14
Kyle
I'll never. I'll never, like, let go of the wall and

01:25:42:15 - 01:25:45:17
Kevin
Yeah, sure. Yeah.

01:25:46:24 - 01:25:49:11
Kevin
I, I, I think I've actually.

01:25:49:11 - 01:25:51:26
Kevin
Have examples of accidents where people do fall.

01:25:51:26 - 01:25:53:09
Kevin
Intentionally, you know.

01:25:53:09 - 01:25:54:12
Kevin
And, and there's kind.

01:25:54:12 - 01:26:02:12
Kevin
Of a actually, I think your accident I listen to your episode, you know, you kind of you dropped off. Right? Yeah. And I've there's.

01:26:02:12 - 01:26:07:24
Kevin
A lot of examples of that. Those leading to accidents. So I think that's a totally.

01:26:07:27 - 01:26:09:24
Kevin
Totally, valuable way to.

01:26:09:24 - 01:26:11:03
Kevin
Look at it. Look at it. Right.

01:26:11:03 - 01:26:12:14
Kevin
If you're if you like, oh.

01:26:12:15 - 01:26:18:00
Kevin
You're giving up any sort of control you have. Possibly.

01:26:18:03 - 01:26:20:18
Kevin
I don't know. I'm not that strict like that.

01:26:20:18 - 01:26:36:26
Kevin
You know, I've certainly, you know, I've been on climbs where I'm just, like, really tired, and I know I'm not going to really make the next move, and I just kind of fall off. But again, it's it's knowing that false safe knowing or it's it's not knowing because it's not nothing. And, this is 100% it's, it's.

01:26:37:01 - 01:26:38:09
Kevin
Stacking the odds in your favor.

01:26:38:09 - 01:26:50:21
Kevin
Right? It's like, hey, I know, I know, I had two good pieces going into this crux. I know based on thousands of falls I've taken or whatever it it's tens of falls that that this fall fits into, you know, that I'm going to be, you know, it's.

01:26:50:21 - 01:26:52:21
Kevin
Steep enough or whatever. The wall's clean enough.

01:26:52:21 - 01:27:04:00
Kevin
Okay. I think my feet are going to be touching the wall as I come down, but there's no ledge, so I'm just going to keep kind of stepping. I'm not going to jump off. I'm just going to step down the wall. And so, I think it can be, totally benign.

01:27:04:00 - 01:27:04:21
Kevin
But yeah, if you're.

01:27:04:21 - 01:27:06:08
Kevin
Looking at that fall you're unfamiliar.

01:27:06:08 - 01:27:11:04
Kevin
With or whatever, it's like, yeah, definitely place the piece and take or click to the piece. Right.

01:27:11:04 - 01:27:12:22
Kevin
It's like,

01:27:12:24 - 01:27:15:09
Kevin
It's any, any to your point to, to.

01:27:15:09 - 01:27:17:22
Kevin
Your question, like, sure, that can hold you.

01:27:17:22 - 01:27:19:09
Kevin
Back if.

01:27:19:12 - 01:27:25:05
Kevin
You know this and you know what's going to be the first of the grade, it's up for you. It's like.

01:27:25:12 - 01:27:26:26
Kevin
Okay, you held yourself.

01:27:26:26 - 01:27:28:16
Kevin
Back to climbing days or.

01:27:28:16 - 01:27:34:23
Kevin
Something, you know, because you'll get it. It's like it's it's not it's it's it's a lifetime.

01:27:34:23 - 01:27:36:24
Kevin
Of climbing that you're going to do right now. It's all.

01:27:36:24 - 01:27:38:18
Kevin
Going to it feels in that moment that.

01:27:38:18 - 01:27:41:04
Kevin
That's the one climb that matters, you know. And man, if I can just.

01:27:41:04 - 01:27:42:04
Kevin
Do if I could just.

01:27:42:04 - 01:27:44:03
Kevin
On site my first whatever number.

01:27:44:10 - 01:27:50:15
Kevin
Like that's going to be so cool. And yeah, it will be so cool. But don't it'll like it doesn't matter. You know.

01:27:50:15 - 01:28:01:02
Kevin
It's not worth taking the risk for that to be today. And when you can get on, maybe you'll get on a climb tomorrow that's a little more in your wheelhouse. Or maybe you're more comfortable with the the style of.

01:28:01:02 - 01:28:02:18
Kevin
The fall or the gear or whatever.

01:28:02:18 - 01:28:13:18
Kevin
It is. And, you know, to push it just because, you know, some, you know, floating head on the internet said, if you're not born, you're not trying, you know, I mean, yeah. Yeah. So I know.

01:28:13:21 - 01:28:15:18
Kevin
That's, that's a tough one.

01:28:15:18 - 01:28:23:09
Kevin
You have to, like, have some nuance with it. Like what? You're, you know, how you're thinking about it and, and,

01:28:23:09 - 01:28:46:08
Kyle
been a superpower for me. Like, especially after the accident. Like, falling and injuring myself again was basically a non-negotiable. I'm just, like, been through it once. Do not want to do it again. Cannot afford it financially or physically. Like cannot let that happen again. So it's like, what am I going to do? You know that to me, this is the safest way I can move forward and become a better climber.

01:28:46:08 - 01:28:52:07
Kyle
And I've a way stronger climber than I ever have been before the accident with this new mentality. And so it's just been it's been such a key for me.

01:28:52:22 - 01:28:53:09
Kevin
I mean, I.

01:28:53:09 - 01:29:08:27
Kevin
Can't climb well without confidence, you know, I'm. I'm like, I'm a horrible free soloist because as soon as my mind, I'm not that confident. Right. And it's just like I just turn to absolute mush, I can't move, I can't think, I can't anything as soon as that comes in. Right.

01:29:08:27 - 01:29:10:28
Kevin
So I place the gear.

01:29:10:28 - 01:29:11:16
Kevin
And then I.

01:29:11:16 - 01:29:13:28
Kevin
Go, so I try so hard.

01:29:14:00 - 01:29:17:28
Kevin
Right? I try so hard. And if I don't place that gear, I'm not trying that hard.

01:29:18:00 - 01:29:19:01
Kevin
And so it's a.

01:29:19:01 - 01:29:25:24
Kevin
Trade off, you know, it's like, yeah. And you know I've, I've climbed.

01:29:25:27 - 01:29:27:05
Kevin
Well it's all it's all relative.

01:29:27:05 - 01:29:27:22
Kevin
Numbers wise.

01:29:27:22 - 01:29:30:05
Kevin
But I think it's easy to hear people say like, oh, I place lots.

01:29:30:05 - 01:29:33:22
Kevin
Of gear. And then you're like, well, you can't climb hard doing that, you know, and it's like.

01:29:33:24 - 01:29:35:18
Kevin
To to flatter myself a little.

01:29:35:18 - 01:29:42:01
Kevin
Like I've, I've often cited, I guess I technically I flashed 12 d on gear.

01:29:42:06 - 01:29:50:20
Kevin
Placing lots of gear. Right, placing lots of gear. And it's like, okay. Then it's like, well, you could climb 13, be on gear if you ran it out. And it's like.

01:29:50:22 - 01:29:53:02
Kevin
Definitely not. You know.

01:29:53:04 - 01:29:59:15
Kevin
And I climb with people all the time that choose to play the game differently and they, you know, and they're not there's.

01:29:59:17 - 01:30:04:04
Kevin
Plenty strong like their names you would recognize. But like.

01:30:04:06 - 01:30:07:21
Kevin
Like they're just playing the game different than I am. And that's okay. They can do.

01:30:07:21 - 01:30:13:15
Kevin
It that way. And like, you hear their stories and stuff and you're like, yeah, that's not the life I want to live, you know?

01:30:13:17 - 01:30:17:20
Kevin
Right. And it's just like, man, what if you know, the the positive.

01:30:17:20 - 01:30:19:25
Kevin
Power of negative thinking.

01:30:19:28 - 01:30:22:01
Kevin
Right? It's not the positive thinking.

01:30:22:01 - 01:30:41:09
Kevin
It's not I can do this. Just believe in yourself. It's no negative thinking. What can go wrong. Okay. How am I going to mitigate that risk. You know this is will guides I've heard it from will guide famous you know ice climber and kayaker, paraglider pilot, rock climber, you know, guide. The positive power of negative thinking.

01:30:41:09 - 01:30:41:22
Kevin
You know.

01:30:41:22 - 01:30:42:08
Kevin
Think.

01:30:42:08 - 01:30:45:14
Kevin
About what can all go wrong and how are you managing those things?

01:30:45:20 - 01:30:48:08
Kevin
Other, other if you're not doing that, you're just.

01:30:48:08 - 01:30:50:23
Kevin
Kind of making it up and getting away with it, you know?

01:30:51:00 - 01:30:52:05
Kevin
And I get a lot of.

01:30:52:05 - 01:30:54:09
Kevin
Confidence from thinking like that, you know, like.

01:30:54:09 - 01:30:55:03
Kevin
It sounds like you are.

01:30:55:03 - 01:31:08:27
Kevin
That's that's allowing you to kind of to, to climb harder because you are, you know, you are placing the gear or, you know, playing it conservatively and it's giving you, you know, comfort on a rope, comfort on these walls.

01:31:08:27 - 01:31:10:06
Kevin
It's giving you the, the.

01:31:10:06 - 01:31:20:18
Kevin
Confidence to get on climbs that are challenging for you and, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, I mean, yeah, I've seen people break their legs showing off on five, six, you know, and it's like.

01:31:20:20 - 01:31:24:11
Kevin
That's dumb, you know? And and of course they agree with it too. They think it's.

01:31:24:11 - 01:31:28:26
Kevin
Dumb too, but it's like, you know, you could have just stayed healthy for six months and you.

01:31:28:26 - 01:31:29:11
Kevin
Wouldn't even.

01:31:29:11 - 01:31:30:13
Kevin
Look at the five, six.

01:31:30:13 - 01:31:32:15
Kevin
You know, you would be, you know.

01:31:32:18 - 01:31:34:24
Kevin
You know, you would be warming up on five, seven or whatever.

01:31:34:24 - 01:31:35:26
Kevin
So.

01:31:35:26 - 01:31:53:16
Kyle
disparity between people who have had a climbing accident and people who have not. There's definitely, like, this kind of conversation we're talking about in this mentality towards safety. I feel like that particular event is a huge cliff for people. Kind of like stepping on the other side and be like, okay, I'll bring a triple rack for this.

01:31:54:08 - 01:31:56:06
Kevin
Yeah, totally.

01:31:56:06 - 01:32:08:14
Kyle
could. I wish we could just, like, convey this information to people. But it's just so hard, man. It's like you can tell someone a thousand times, do something and they're going to do what they're going to do. And some people have to learn the hard way, and it's just some.

01:32:08:17 - 01:32:18:01
Kyle
Unfortunately, with climbing, some people don't get to learn the lesson at all because you die or you are horrifically maimed or you go through a traumatic injury and it's just like, so

01:32:18:26 - 01:32:20:15
Kevin
Or a fear injury. Right.

01:32:20:15 - 01:32:25:19
Kevin
You just like, have. Maybe you get away with it, but you're like, oh, my God, that was so scary.

01:32:25:19 - 01:32:28:27
Kevin
You know? And like, yeah, totally.

01:32:29:00 - 01:32:34:04
Kevin
Yeah. And I think, I think a lot of people take, you know, again, there's the people and usually there.

01:32:34:06 - 01:32:42:09
Kevin
You know, let's be real, it's often young men that are kind of like being a little show offy and, or maybe kind of like trying to take shortcuts or whatever.

01:32:42:09 - 01:32:42:29
Kevin
But there's also.

01:32:42:29 - 01:32:45:09
Kevin
People engaging with the sport and,

01:32:45:11 - 01:32:47:22
Kevin
That are.

01:32:47:25 - 01:33:06:21
Kevin
Just kind of unaware, like there's just missing gaps in their knowledge about, you know, how some of this stuff works or like, yeah, how far you fall or like, yeah. How much the rope stretches or like, you know, and and it's, and that's why I think it's so important to try and engage with falling early and often in your climbing career.

01:33:06:21 - 01:33:07:18
Kevin
If that's the.

01:33:07:19 - 01:33:12:06
Kevin
The path you're going to, if you're going to potentially engage with that on your own, you know, it's like, hey, it's.

01:33:12:06 - 01:33:15:19
Kevin
It's it doesn't have to be a part of your climbing, but you have to kind of.

01:33:15:19 - 01:33:16:13
Kevin
Know the game that you're.

01:33:16:13 - 01:33:19:28
Kevin
Playing, because if you're running it out ten feet.

01:33:20:00 - 01:33:27:06
Kevin
And you don't and you've never taken a fall that's like a three feet above your gear, you have no clue what's going to happen to.

01:33:27:06 - 01:33:28:17
Kevin
You. You have no clue the game you're.

01:33:28:17 - 01:33:33:08
Kevin
Playing, you know, no clue how your life is going to change if you if you break that hold. And and sadly.

01:33:33:08 - 01:33:36:04
Kevin
Like, there's lots of examples of insanely good.

01:33:36:06 - 01:33:43:14
Kevin
Rock climbers, even losing their lives, breaking a hold on five, six, running it out, you know? So.

01:33:43:16 - 01:33:49:24
Kevin
Yeah, you know.

01:33:49:26 - 01:33:51:00
Kevin
Oh, interesting.

01:33:51:01 - 01:33:54:12
Kevin
That's good.

01:33:54:15 - 01:33:59:14
Kevin
Interesting, man. I would ask me to say more about that.

01:33:59:14 - 01:34:05:08
Kyle
but, with climbing, it's like you. At least with the safety systems, you have to know what the fuck you're doing.

01:34:05:12 - 01:34:15:04
Kyle
Or you can kill yourself on a five, six, five, four. You can kill yourself scrambling like you can kill yourself rappelling. It's like it's not a sport where you can choose to be bad at it. In

01:34:15:04 - 01:34:17:21
Kevin
Yeah, yeah. You know, and not necessarily bad.

01:34:17:21 - 01:34:20:00
Kevin
At the physical movement aspect. Like it.

01:34:20:01 - 01:34:24:01
Kevin
Yeah. You can be, you know, it's like you can't be bad at.

01:34:24:03 - 01:34:28:09
Kevin
Understanding the systems and like, you know, like.

01:34:28:12 - 01:34:28:28
Kevin
Yeah.

01:34:28:29 - 01:34:31:17
Kevin
You know, you can't be relying on other people to get you out.

01:34:31:17 - 01:34:32:29
Kevin
Of trouble or like.

01:34:33:06 - 01:34:34:14
Kevin
Or you can't be bad at placing.

01:34:34:14 - 01:34:36:21
Kevin
Gear like, you can be.

01:34:36:23 - 01:34:53:18
Kevin
You know, quote unquote bad at movement, you know? And that's all relative, right? But, you know, like, you got it. Yeah. You got to put the good gear in and you got, you know, and you got to. Yeah. Under understand the game you're playing. Yeah.

01:34:53:18 - 01:35:01:14
Kevin
That's, that's I think that quote holds out. Yeah.

01:35:01:16 - 01:35:04:24
Kevin
Oh, totally. 100%.

01:35:04:24 - 01:35:13:27
Kyle
I think it's like. Yeah, I don't even know how to say this, but, like, you don't really know if a cam is going to hold or a piece is going to hold until you fall on it.

01:35:13:29 - 01:35:36:23
Kyle
Like, maybe you made a mistake. Maybe that piece wasn't as good as you thought. Maybe there was moss that you didn't see. Maybe there was like, moisture. You didn't see. Or, maybe one of the lobes was flaring. You didn't catch it. It's like those mistakes that we miss that, sometimes are inconsequential because we didn't actually fall in the piece or we didn't actually test the safety system, and so we'll never know.

01:35:36:26 - 01:35:50:24
Kyle
And that's one funny, actually, there's one thing that's great about me filming all my routes is I literally go back and watch the routes to make the videos, and so I get to analyze every single placement that I make. And sometimes I'm just like, that is fucked. What the

01:35:51:23 - 01:35:53:23
Kevin
Yeah. Totally. Totally.

01:35:53:23 - 01:35:57:15
Kyle
I get this, like second hand knowledge all the time, which has been very helpful.

01:35:57:28 - 01:35:59:16
Kevin
Oh, yeah. For sure. You know, I.

01:35:59:16 - 01:36:01:05
Kevin
Think it's easy.

01:36:01:05 - 01:36:04:15
Kevin
When we hear about mistakes people make or accidents, we're.

01:36:04:15 - 01:36:06:17
Kevin
Like, I would never do that, you know.

01:36:06:17 - 01:36:14:11
Kevin
Or, like. And and I think that's really dangerous. And I think the reality is we're all animals. We're all humans. We all make mistakes, and we make this.

01:36:14:16 - 01:36:18:05
Kevin
We make mistakes often for the stupidest reasons.

01:36:18:08 - 01:36:19:15
Kevin
We're hungry.

01:36:19:17 - 01:36:27:11
Kevin
We're we're it's getting dark. It's, you know, whatever. And then suddenly we just start to turn the pace.

01:36:27:11 - 01:36:29:24
Kevin
Up on things, and we're and and we, we risk.

01:36:29:24 - 01:36:30:09
Kevin
Death.

01:36:30:09 - 01:36:30:26
Kevin
You know, in our.

01:36:30:26 - 01:36:31:26
Kevin
Sport, we risk death.

01:36:32:03 - 01:36:43:27
Kevin
And when, you know, normally, you know, when you're hanging around with your friends and you get hungry, you just, like, get a little hangry or whatever, you get a little, you respond to people a little snappier. Right? And,

01:36:43:29 - 01:36:44:24
Kevin
But yeah, we will.

01:36:44:24 - 01:36:47:11
Kevin
All make mistakes in any accident report you've.

01:36:47:11 - 01:36:49:05
Kevin
Read. Like, that's you.

01:36:49:08 - 01:36:50:11
Kevin
You know, and and.

01:36:50:11 - 01:36:51:15
Kevin
You you could be.

01:36:51:15 - 01:36:57:01
Kevin
That. Right. And, and, and I think, I think that's a really good.

01:36:57:03 - 01:37:01:13
Kevin
Like really, truly believing that you can make those mistakes.

01:37:01:15 - 01:37:14:10
Kevin
And knowing you can is a great counter to complacency, you know, and I think when you've been climbing, when you're a beginner, everything's really scary. And so you're quadruple checking your carabiners and stuff. Right. And then there's kind of like this.

01:37:14:12 - 01:37:15:21
Kevin
Maybe intermediate.

01:37:15:21 - 01:37:21:22
Kevin
And maybe you never leave this intermediate phase or something where.

01:37:21:25 - 01:37:22:06
Kevin
Yeah.

01:37:22:06 - 01:37:25:25
Kevin
Maybe you start to feel like you got and got it figured out. You're doing kind of bigger things.

01:37:25:25 - 01:37:31:19
Kevin
But man, it's just doesn't take much like it. Like, you know, people are, you know, people.

01:37:31:19 - 01:37:34:10
Kevin
Often ask, you know, non climbers are like, oh, have you had any near-death.

01:37:34:10 - 01:37:45:14
Kevin
Experiences? And I'm like, yeah 9.2mm. You know that's the rope right. It's we're always near death right. It's like this, you know, it's like

01:37:45:17 - 01:37:53:16
Kevin
Yeah. And I've started to get to a part in my climbing where I'm scared. I'm like scared and paranoid again. You know, it's just kind of like I'm doing this a lot, and.

01:37:53:19 - 01:37:55:28
Kevin
I'm doing this a lot, but I'm not doing it every single.

01:37:55:28 - 01:38:00:27
Kevin
Day. Kind of like I was when I was in my in like the van life. Climb, climb, climb on, climb, climb, climb.

01:38:00:27 - 01:38:02:27
Kevin
Sort of situation which I think you're so.

01:38:02:27 - 01:38:11:02
Kevin
Current and fresh, that you still are course possible to make mistakes, but you're so current.

01:38:11:04 - 01:38:15:18
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, now I'm like, yeah, I've got other stuff going on.

01:38:15:18 - 01:38:19:11
Kevin
I'm climbing here, you know? And now I'm kind of like perked up again. I'm like, oh my gosh.

01:38:19:11 - 01:38:20:00
Kevin
Like this is.

01:38:20:06 - 01:38:24:28
Kevin
You know, it's like, I really do need to check this stuff. And, and, you know, check your systems and.

01:38:25:00 - 01:38:26:05
Kevin
Be a little be a.

01:38:26:05 - 01:38:27:00
Kevin
Little paranoid.

01:38:27:00 - 01:38:30:18
Kevin
Okay. Yeah. It's kind of maybe it holds you back, but like.

01:38:30:18 - 01:38:34:25
Kevin
It's going to keep you in the game a lot longer. And,

01:38:34:27 - 01:38:36:13
Kevin
And yeah, you know, it won't if you're.

01:38:36:13 - 01:38:45:17
Kevin
Observant, it won't take you long. And I bet a lot of climbers have had these experiences where they're just like, oh, that's actually not clipped or, you know, whatever it.

01:38:45:17 - 01:38:50:21
Kevin
Is. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

01:38:50:23 - 01:39:07:00
Kevin
Totally. That's one that gets people I've had where I, you know, me personally, when I wrap my press sick when I went to clip the auto black back to the carabiner, I kind of missed. And then I wrap down and I let go and it held. And then I'm watching it, you know, unwind or whatever. Right?

01:39:07:02 - 01:39:08:23
Kevin
But it's just like stuff like that.

01:39:08:23 - 01:39:24:10
Kevin
And it's like. And, yeah, it's good to it's good to be aware, you know, when I teach some my back, my big wall course, that one's unpacking a lot of information into two days. Me as an instructor, I'm like, oh, my, I'm just flying all over the place rigging scenarios and stuff. And I take.

01:39:24:10 - 01:39:24:20
Kevin
A lot of.

01:39:24:20 - 01:39:42:25
Kevin
Risk to to provide a lot of that value. And that's where I've had personal kind of like near misses and, like, you know, when I'm just rigging weird things, it's not stuff you're ever going to find in a book or like, you don't get taught how to rig these scenarios as a guide, you know? And, you know, I'll tell people like.

01:39:42:27 - 01:39:44:10
Kevin
So that one was.

01:39:44:12 - 01:39:55:05
Kevin
The one I'm thinking of. I was using, like traditional sewn pocketed daisies. And when I like, clipped into a station, the, the daisy was sitting through the carabiner so.

01:39:55:05 - 01:39:58:05
Kevin
It looked like it was clipped, but actually the pocket.

01:39:58:05 - 01:40:11:21
Kevin
Wasn't clipped on the daisy. It was just literally like, you took the daisy and like, poked it through the locked carabiner, you know? And so I was kind of doing stuff on this ledge, and then I just watched the daisy fall out of the carabiner and it's like, well, shit, you know?

01:40:11:28 - 01:40:12:28
Kevin
And there's lots of.

01:40:13:02 - 01:40:15:00
Kevin
You know, you could say like, well, you should have.

01:40:15:00 - 01:40:15:18
Kevin
Loaded that.

01:40:15:18 - 01:40:37:09
Kevin
System before you moved your old system. And it's like, sure. Fair enough. You know, that absolutely would, would have help that. But, yeah, when you're, when you're bustling, hurrying around and trying to, you know, in my case, like, provide a lot of value for people and pack a lot into a day and, yeah, you're liable to make mistakes.

01:40:37:09 - 01:40:43:10
Kevin
And, I often tell people, you know, when I teach spy courses and stuff, I'm like, hey, everyone.

01:40:43:10 - 01:40:46:09
Kevin
Has the right to say, stop.

01:40:46:12 - 01:40:55:02
Kevin
What's going on? You know what's going on here? Even if it's me, you know, I'm the instructor. I know everything, right? And and it's like, no, even if it's me, if I'm doing something and you think like.

01:40:55:02 - 01:40:56:17
Kevin
Wait, Kevin, that's the, like.

01:40:56:17 - 01:40:59:19
Kevin
Line that's just on the bush that you were showing. You know, it's like.

01:40:59:19 - 01:41:00:18
Kevin
Everyone has veto.

01:41:00:18 - 01:41:12:24
Kevin
Power. Everyone can say, stop, pause. Like what's going on here? You know, especially with those courses because it's like it's kind of, a lot of beginners trying like new technical systems on each other. And so.

01:41:12:27 - 01:41:15:15
Kevin
But, it's.

01:41:15:15 - 01:41:29:10
Kyle
with, my my climbing partner Bryce's. We are both very vocal about, like. Hey, I don't know if that piece looks really good. You want to double check that or. Hey, I think you might need to extend that. Or. Hey, rope's running weird behind your leg. Like, just just

01:41:31:06 - 01:41:33:20
Kevin
Yeah, totally.

01:41:33:20 - 01:41:38:10
Kyle
we're going to make mistakes. But if we work as a team to constantly watch for those things, we're

01:41:40:06 - 01:41:40:22
Kevin
Yeah.

01:41:40:24 - 01:41:45:04
Kevin
Yeah, for sure. And I think those are really valuable partnerships. You know, it's.

01:41:45:07 - 01:41:47:15
Kevin
I don't like climbing with people where I feel.

01:41:47:15 - 01:41:48:19
Kevin
Like I'm the brakes.

01:41:48:19 - 01:41:51:04
Kevin
On everything. They're just like the charging bull.

01:41:51:04 - 01:41:53:03
Kevin
And I'm constantly being like, you know.

01:41:53:03 - 01:41:57:10
Kevin
Like, is that enough gear or, like, is the rope long enough for the descent? Or like, it feels like.

01:41:57:10 - 01:41:59:05
Kevin
I'm doing all the, like, worrying.

01:41:59:05 - 01:42:01:27
Kevin
You know, it's like, well, what if I miss something?

01:42:02:00 - 01:42:18:11
Kevin
Then it means, like, we're just screwed, you know? It's like you kind of want to have. Yeah. You want to find somebody that, you know, they're looking out for some things because you're going to miss things and you're looking out for things. I hate being the the brakes on the, on on some kind of charging, charging bull.

01:42:18:11 - 01:42:25:10
Kevin
You know, I mean, those relationships, those climbing relationships don't really last, for me at least. Yeah.

01:42:25:10 - 01:42:44:02
Kyle
So to close out this topic of risk I fit these two quotes I'm workshopping right now. I want to hear what you think about these. So they're both kind of like cousins of each other. The first one is, it's better to move with the mindset of a soloist and be saved by your gear than to rely on your gear like bolts in to be betrayed by them.

01:42:44:04 - 01:42:53:29
Kyle
And then there's a second one to this that's like the same thing, but phrase in a different way. I'd rather over respect the danger and be surprised by safety than under respect it and pay the price.

01:42:55:06 - 01:42:59:13
Kevin
Ooh. Yeah. I like both of those.

01:42:59:15 - 01:43:06:22
Kevin
You know, it's tough, you know, move like a soloist. I. I.

01:43:06:25 - 01:43:07:27
Kevin
And be surprised.

01:43:07:27 - 01:43:10:16
Kevin
By the safety. Yeah.

01:43:10:18 - 01:43:12:14
Kevin
I don't know, I.

01:43:12:17 - 01:43:16:27
Kevin
Yeah. Right.

01:43:16:27 - 01:43:26:29
Kyle
encapsulate this mentality of, like, movement is number one and like, safety's number or like our systems are number two. I guess that's what I'm trying to actually like,

01:43:27:18 - 01:43:33:06
Kevin
Yeah. I mean, that's kind of, you know, I don't know, I and again, I think like, if that's working.

01:43:33:06 - 01:43:47:15
Kevin
For you, you should run. Run with it. I might push back on it a little bit in that I don't, I don't think that's how I've climbed, you know, like in the mindset, you know, there's no way I'd be climbing, you know, the grades I'm climbing if I'm moving as a soloist, you know, and I think.

01:43:47:18 - 01:43:49:07
Kevin
I think instead of and this.

01:43:49:07 - 01:43:58:22
Kevin
Is just, you know, friendly push back, you know, instead of being surprised by the safety system, you know, it's like, let's experiment with it so that it's not a surprise, you know, or like, you know, or.

01:43:58:22 - 01:44:00:22
Kevin
Like, what's the odds that piece reps.

01:44:00:22 - 01:44:03:18
Kevin
You know, we can never know, like you said, until you fall on it.

01:44:03:23 - 01:44:06:21
Kevin
And even then, you only know it held that first of all, you can fall on.

01:44:06:21 - 01:44:18:13
Kevin
It again and it can pull. Right. If you fall on a piece, back it up, by the way, like if you've already taken the fall once, it's like you blew your send back it up like that can still pop when you fall on the seventh time. Right?

01:44:18:13 - 01:44:20:00
Kyle
I'm like, hey, is your piece still good?

01:44:20:00 - 01:44:26:23
Kevin
Yeah. No. That's smart. Yeah. No, I've seen it where they, they pop on fall seven or whatever.

01:44:26:25 - 01:44:33:00
Kevin
But I think there can be, you know, we don't. Yeah. I would lean more towards.

01:44:33:00 - 01:44:43:23
Kevin
Kind of what I was saying earlier with, like, if we engage with falling and we understand the more we understand the systems and the, you know, the possible lengths of the fall and stuff and understand that.

01:44:43:25 - 01:44:44:12
Kevin
Yeah, that.

01:44:44:12 - 01:44:46:08
Kevin
Piece can pop.

01:44:46:10 - 01:44:50:22
Kevin
But if it does, okay. Right. That piece is allowed to pop.

01:44:51:00 - 01:44:57:16
Kevin
You know, it's like I'm not threading the margin that that piece has to hold for me to be okay. And so then, you know.

01:44:57:16 - 01:44:59:00
Kevin
I can.

01:44:59:00 - 01:45:14:25
Kevin
Move into terrain where I might fall off and move without. It's not like a soloist and fall off or even take falls for fun. Because I have, because it won't be a surprise to me when things work.

01:45:14:25 - 01:45:16:27
Kevin
Or if they don't work, it won't be a.

01:45:16:27 - 01:45:19:20
Kevin
Surprise to me if that piece, that top piece.

01:45:19:20 - 01:45:19:29
Kevin
Does.

01:45:19:29 - 01:45:20:18
Kevin
Pop.

01:45:20:21 - 01:45:23:20
Kevin
And it's like, oh, I took the ride to the next one, you know? But it was all clean.

01:45:23:20 - 01:45:26:27
Kevin
Or or it won't be surprise to me if I do.

01:45:26:27 - 01:45:29:19
Kevin
Unfortunately, clip my ankle on that.

01:45:29:19 - 01:45:30:23
Kevin
Little edge.

01:45:30:23 - 01:45:41:04
Kevin
That's sticking out in an unskillful falling movement. Right. That's that's a possibility, certainly. You know, and,

01:45:41:06 - 01:45:49:27
Kevin
Yeah, I don't know. I think that's a little bit the leader shall not fall mentality, which I see a lot of people that climb like that.

01:45:49:27 - 01:45:53:22
Kevin
And I think of them as like literally calm, free, solo trad climbers. Right.

01:45:53:29 - 01:45:57:14
Kevin
They're carrying all the gear. They're using the rope. The gear they place is.

01:45:57:14 - 01:46:03:13
Kevin
Terrible because they never tested it or whatever. And they're just climbing easy stuff, you know? But.

01:46:03:13 - 01:46:04:15
Kevin
Should they ever.

01:46:04:15 - 01:46:06:12
Kevin
Actually fall, like, it's going to.

01:46:06:12 - 01:46:07:13
Kevin
Be horrible.

01:46:07:20 - 01:46:23:08
Kevin
It's going to be horrible situation, you know. So so I don't know, I think the, you know, and this is the beauty it's always a gray area. There's no black and white with all this stuff. So I think there's absolutely merit to, you know, the idea you're, you're putting a cross where, you know, as soon as you're falling, you're out of control and.

01:46:23:08 - 01:46:24:18
Kevin
You've had different climbing.

01:46:24:18 - 01:46:38:16
Kevin
Experiences than I have to lead you to that conclusion. Right. You mentioned, you know, I've been lucky to not have a climbing accident, you know, and so that could color my perspective. Right. And that's kind of the interesting climbing. It's like we all we can.

01:46:38:16 - 01:46:42:02
Kevin
Read the textbook and then we have our own experiences that color how.

01:46:42:02 - 01:46:49:03
Kevin
We make certain decisions. And that's going to change over time. And we're each going to make those decisions different ways. And because I'm going to weigh.

01:46:49:07 - 01:46:50:01
Kevin
This possible.

01:46:50:01 - 01:46:54:11
Kevin
Outcome more and based on your experience, you're going to weigh this possible outcome more. So you're going to choose.

01:46:54:11 - 01:46:56:01
Kevin
To make this change to the system.

01:46:56:01 - 01:47:14:07
Kevin
Where I'm going to choose to prefer instead, whatever else. And it's that's why, you know, there's no right answer to, well, what's the best way to like, build an anchor? Like, what's the best? You know, it's like, well, it's always going to be it's always going to going to depend. So,

01:47:14:07 - 01:47:23:10
Kyle
definitely, it's going to it's going to be an ever evolving, mentality. I think, you know, it's definitely linked towards, experience and skill and

01:47:24:04 - 01:47:28:00
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

01:47:28:00 - 01:47:55:22
Kyle
Let's be real for a second. The current blueprint for a successful climbing podcast is simple. Interview the best climbers in the world. Big names mean big followings. Lots of SEO power and a built in audience that helps boost every episode. But this show, this show has never been about that. From the beginning, I have made it my mission to bring you stories from the climbing majority, the climbers who don't live in the limelight, the ones who avoid interviews, quietly put up roots and give back in ways that are rarely recognized.

01:47:55:26 - 01:48:12:15
Kyle
And while that's what makes this show special, it also means we have an uphill battle when it comes to growth. And that is where you come in. If you're psyched about the show, if you've been inspired, entertained, or fired up about an episode. Word of mouth is the single most important way you can help the show. Share an episode with a friend.

01:48:12:19 - 01:48:30:03
Kyle
Play one on a group road trip. Post about the show on social media. Jump onto Reddit threads and Mountain Project forums and share with people what you've been listening to. Be sure to tag the show, tag your favorite guests, and spread the word. And if you want to help even more, I'm currently sending posters to climbing gyms around the country.

01:48:30:07 - 01:48:43:18
Kyle
If you'd like to support one in your climbing gym, be sure to reach out. Email me at the Climbing Majority podcast at gmail.com and I will be sure to send you one. Let's band together and show the climbing community that the climbing majority has a voice.

01:48:43:19 - 01:48:52:07
Kyle
So you've, you know, you've gone seven years in a van as a dirtbag chasing performance, almost becoming a professional athlete in a way.

01:48:52:07 - 01:49:11:22
Kyle
You can put that in air quotes, if you'd like. To having climbing kind of to take a back seat. You've seen a lot of climbing along the way. And honestly, you know, if we're looking at your tick list and kind of your, you know, you've built kind of an illustrious climbing resume along the way. And I'd love to dive into some of these, these stories,

01:49:12:11 - 01:49:17:03
Kevin
Yeah, yeah. Let's do it.

01:49:17:03 - 01:49:21:08
Kyle
here, I don't know, on the current, like, how they are chronological,

01:49:22:22 - 01:49:23:02
Kevin
Yeah.

01:49:23:02 - 01:49:26:17
Kevin
I don't know if I know, so we can try.

01:49:26:20 - 01:49:27:21
Kevin
Yeah.

01:49:27:21 - 01:49:35:01
Kyle
and, you know, I, I read the reports on all these. I have, you know, a general idea of what these stories were.

01:49:35:07 - 01:49:56:05
Kyle
And so, you know, I'm honestly, this is just a chance for the audience to hear these stories from your perspective and to get a kind of a glimpse into to who you are as a climber. Not necessarily to to extract any sort of meaning or anything out of these. So totally story time. First one is, the rope solo also scary, which I thought was a fucking hilarious name.

01:49:56:07 - 01:50:00:10
Kyle
Considering the circumstances of your descent. So, Yeah, talk to me about that.

01:50:00:25 - 01:50:02:14
Kevin
So I was. This is in the wind.

01:50:02:14 - 01:50:18:02
Kevin
River range, which was a place that I showed up at. And as soon as I set foot there, I was like, I'm going to spend a lot of time here. This is rad, you know? And and the beauty of living that lifestyle is I just did, you know, and, Yeah.

01:50:18:02 - 01:50:20:23
Kevin
So there was this,

01:50:20:25 - 01:50:31:26
Kevin
So I spent like a month there with some friends, and then they were moving on and doing other things, and, I kind of got invited by some, some, lovely people.

01:50:31:26 - 01:50:32:09
Kevin
We met.

01:50:32:09 - 01:50:40:19
Kevin
To join them on a trip, and just my nature. I was just like, no, I'm going to do something on my own. And just kind of like.

01:50:40:21 - 01:50:42:06
Kevin
That's just, you know, I don't.

01:50:42:06 - 01:50:58:13
Kevin
Know, I'm an introvert, you know? And ultimately and like, so I looked for kind of an experience I could, a challenge I could undertake on my own. And, somebody had, Matthew Hartman, I believe Matthew Tipton. Dang, I'm missing his name. But he put.

01:50:58:13 - 01:50:58:25
Kevin
He did.

01:50:58:25 - 01:51:15:00
Kevin
A, you know, as free as can be rope reaction or in your back route up this, this pretty minor feature, to be honest. Sundance pinnacle and in the wind River range. And you put on a mountain project as like a C1, you know, we couldn't free the crux, you know, the the crux or whatever. And I was like, oh, sweet.

01:51:15:00 - 01:51:20:20
Kevin
Maybe I'll see if I could get that done. You know, basically free that line. And so, I spent.

01:51:20:22 - 01:51:21:27
Kevin
Overall, I think it was like.

01:51:21:27 - 01:51:41:03
Kevin
Ten days or maybe it was two weeks in total of from. Yeah. Like having this idea to, like, getting it done. And I mostly worked on it top down. I cleaned and like, found the line and everything and then ultimately, rope solo the first ascent, I did, like a bit of a variation to one of the pitches, but.

01:51:41:05 - 01:51:42:07
Kevin
They, they.

01:51:42:07 - 01:51:45:27
Kevin
Didn't want any bolts to be put on, which it.

01:51:45:27 - 01:51:48:01
Kevin
Didn't need any bolts. You know, nobody's.

01:51:48:01 - 01:51:49:02
Kevin
Probably gonna ever repeat.

01:51:49:02 - 01:51:53:02
Kevin
It because it's pretty and it's pretty exciting. It's a lot of, like, fiddly gear.

01:51:53:02 - 01:52:02:19
Kevin
And I had the luxury of hanging around on a rope and figuring it out and brushing all the holes and, and, you know, had kind of like, piece by piece pita. But yeah, I think ultimately it was.

01:52:02:19 - 01:52:08:09
Kevin
Like four pitches or something. Like five, nine, 12.

01:52:08:12 - 01:52:10:02
Kevin
A.

01:52:10:05 - 01:52:15:27
Kevin
Five, 11 something, 12 plus ten plus something like that.

01:52:15:29 - 01:52:20:09
Kevin
And then. Yeah. And so I did, I did it and like the crux was.

01:52:20:09 - 01:52:26:26
Kevin
Pretty hard for me. It's very steep, which is not my style. And I remember when I was, you know, when I was doing it, I had.

01:52:26:29 - 01:52:27:23
Kevin
Mapped out all this.

01:52:27:23 - 01:52:28:20
Kevin
Beta and it was this.

01:52:28:20 - 01:52:29:14
Kevin
Roof.

01:52:29:16 - 01:52:31:20
Kevin
And I was going to be kind of in a lay back in a corner.

01:52:31:20 - 01:52:35:12
Kevin
Under the roof, place a piece in the roof, clip.

01:52:35:12 - 01:52:37:28
Kevin
It, and then kind of punch out the last.

01:52:38:00 - 01:52:39:17
Kevin
Not the crux. The crux was.

01:52:39:17 - 01:52:42:03
Kevin
Right below that move. But like, definitely you're pumped and

01:52:42:03 - 01:52:42:23
Kevin
wailing.

01:52:42:26 - 01:52:46:14
Kevin
And I from my layback position actually for real.

01:52:46:14 - 01:52:47:16
Kevin
Leading, I couldn't.

01:52:47:16 - 01:52:52:21
Kevin
Reach to place that piece. And so I placed it in the corner like under the roof.

01:52:52:26 - 01:52:54:17
Kevin
And then it's just like, oh man, now.

01:52:54:17 - 01:52:56:09
Kevin
This is a bad fall, you know, because.

01:52:56:12 - 01:52:58:18
Kevin
I'm not protected in the roof, unprotected, you know.

01:52:58:25 - 01:52:59:15
Kevin
Before the.

01:52:59:15 - 01:53:00:13
Kevin
Roof. And so it's I.

01:53:00:14 - 01:53:02:29
Kevin
Like it's definitely not going to be a good fall, but I've.

01:53:02:29 - 01:53:04:03
Kevin
Worked these moves on top.

01:53:04:03 - 01:53:04:15
Kevin
Rope.

01:53:04:19 - 01:53:24:23
Kevin
You know, I know exactly the sequence I'm about to do. And so I had I was like banshees screaming through that. And of course, again, you know, I mentioned the how hard work it is rope soloing. You know, I had climbed all of the pitches leading up to there, but I've also repelled them. Then just back up them and, and, so yeah, I was pretty pumped on that.

01:53:24:23 - 01:53:31:28
Kevin
And like, man, that was a moment I wish I shared with somebody, to be honest. But then if I shared it with somebody, it wouldn't be the moment that it was.

01:53:32:00 - 01:53:35:01
Kevin
But anyway, so then I, you know, I top out and I actually feel good about.

01:53:35:01 - 01:53:41:00
Kevin
Topping this one out and, you know, surprise, surprise from my story earlier. But this one actually felt good. And, I.

01:53:41:00 - 01:53:43:28
Kevin
Was kind of just like floating. I was feeling good as I.

01:53:43:28 - 01:53:53:01
Kevin
Was walking down the descent, there was other people climbing, kind of like this five, seven, I think classic, which I hadn't seen anybody for weeks being out there. And, I like.

01:53:53:04 - 01:53:53:24
Kevin
Shout out.

01:53:53:24 - 01:53:55:23
Kevin
Because I kind of want to talk about what I just did and so I'm.

01:53:55:23 - 01:54:16:16
Kevin
Like, how's it going? They're like, oh, good. Now I'm like, what's climbing? You know? And they're like, you know, whatever. And I'm like, cool. And they're like, what? What do you guys climb? And I was like, oh, it's just me. I did the first free I rope solo the first free, and they're like, okay. And I was like, okay, you know, and then, and then I'm on the descent and I've walked down this peak.

01:54:16:16 - 01:54:18:00
Kevin
Many times because I've been walking up.

01:54:18:00 - 01:54:18:24
Kevin
It to fix a.

01:54:18:24 - 01:54:25:28
Kevin
Rope, and I'm scrambling down this kind of rock band, you know, it's not vertical, but I'm kind of face out scrambling.

01:54:26:00 - 01:54:27:26
Kevin
And I just hear one of the least rocks.

01:54:27:26 - 01:54:32:02
Kevin
Kind of rolling behind me. So I look over my shoulder and.

01:54:32:04 - 01:54:42:11
Kevin
Not three feet away is a bear, a bear. It's not a rock rolling at me. It's a bear out of the bush. It's just I'm face out kind of crab style on this little.

01:54:42:13 - 01:54:43:08
Kevin
Rock band and just.

01:54:43:08 - 01:54:46:22
Kevin
Bear. And I just immediately, you know. No, you had.

01:54:46:22 - 01:54:47:24
Kevin
No time to, like.

01:54:47:29 - 01:55:00:07
Kevin
I just launch off this little land in Talis, you know? And I'm just screaming, you know, just like, oh, fuck. Bear, you know, and I just was talking to these guys up there, and so now they're here in this, you know, and I.

01:55:00:07 - 01:55:02:07
Kevin
Can't imagine their perspective on this.

01:55:02:10 - 01:55:09:06
Kevin
But, and the bear is just chasing me, right. And so, like it, I must have scared it initially.

01:55:09:06 - 01:55:10:07
Kevin
Right. And then it scared the.

01:55:10:07 - 01:55:11:25
Kevin
Shit out of me. And so I.

01:55:11:25 - 01:55:21:12
Kevin
Just start running, down this mountainside, to get to my camp, and and it's chasing me, and it's like, I don't know, like, time gets weird. And these.

01:55:21:12 - 01:55:23:28
Kevin
Things, I don't know how long it was, but it was long.

01:55:23:28 - 01:55:26:16
Kevin
Enough where I'm like, kind of like.

01:55:26:16 - 01:55:30:05
Kevin
This sucks. I'm running from a bit like the bear is chasing me.

01:55:30:05 - 01:55:39:06
Kevin
I'm running from the bear, you know, and I get to the next little, like, cliff thing, and I just kind of like, scooch and jump off of it, and I'm just kind of crashing into the Tallis and.

01:55:39:06 - 01:55:41:19
Kevin
But still, you know, fine.

01:55:41:20 - 01:55:44:26
Kevin
You know, running and, booking it down this hill.

01:55:44:26 - 01:55:45:29
Kevin
And I had time.

01:55:45:29 - 01:55:47:22
Kevin
To think about a lot of stuff, and I was like.

01:55:47:24 - 01:55:48:27
Kevin
Well, I've.

01:55:48:29 - 01:55:52:12
Kevin
You know, I know that bears are bad at running downhill.

01:55:52:12 - 01:55:58:02
Kevin
Like, why do I know that? It's like they have shorter they have shorter front legs. So it's weird for them to run downhill.

01:55:58:02 - 01:55:59:07
Kevin
I don't know how I knew that.

01:55:59:10 - 01:56:01:16
Kevin
So I was like, oh, I'm going to hit the meadow.

01:56:01:16 - 01:56:11:11
Kevin
At the bottom of this, which is flat, and I need to gain ground on the downhill so that I can get through the meadow before it can get to me, so I can get to this bear spray that I have in my camp.

01:56:11:13 - 01:56:12:18
Kevin
And it's bear spray.

01:56:12:20 - 01:56:32:04
Kevin
I found it, it's completely sun bleached. I found it in a bush when I was like, looking for beauty at the base of formations on a rest day, so I didn't even know if it worked or whatever. But, so I make ground on the bear, you know, at most he's like 20ft away from me. So it's just like a bears chasing me and, you know.

01:56:32:06 - 01:56:32:13
Kevin
Yeah.

01:56:32:13 - 01:56:37:02
Kevin
So then I make it to the meadow. This met this marsh that I've, like, tiptoed

01:56:37:02 - 01:56:41:05
Kevin
around for two weeks, you know, and now I'm crashing through it. You know, it's.

01:56:41:05 - 01:56:41:29
Kevin
All wet and.

01:56:41:29 - 01:56:49:05
Kevin
Spongy ground that I. Yeah. Tad tiptoed around, and now I just flying through it, and I'm just, like, panting and scream, you know, and I.

01:56:49:05 - 01:56:51:02
Kevin
Have I just rope slid, you.

01:56:51:02 - 01:56:51:21
Kevin
Know, this route.

01:56:51:21 - 01:56:54:02
Kevin
So I have a 70 meter rope strapped.

01:56:54:02 - 01:57:12:09
Kevin
On my back. I have a double rack. I have a pack of water, you know, in my helmet. I'm just like, jumbling through. And I get to my bear spray and I actually have this on video of, like the last part of me running. I grab the bear spray, I rip the safety off, and then I turn and face the bear and I get all big and I'm like, yelling at it, you know?

01:57:12:09 - 01:57:16:28
Kevin
And then it stops and then it just starts walking away, you know.

01:57:17:01 - 01:57:23:20
Kevin
In which is, oh yeah, yeah.

01:57:23:22 - 01:57:31:26
Kevin
Yeah. Right. Which is what you're supposed to do with black bears. It's like you're supposed to stand your ground, but it's like, good luck standing your ground. Yeah, yeah.

01:57:31:26 - 01:57:33:04
Kevin
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:57:33:06 - 01:57:35:20
Kevin
And so. Exactly. And so like. And as I'm running, like, it's a.

01:57:35:20 - 01:57:46:03
Kevin
Very brown black bear. And actually the win win River range is one of the few places, you know we have grizzlies in the, you know in the continental US. And.

01:57:46:06 - 01:57:47:04
Kevin
Yeah. And it's like.

01:57:47:04 - 01:57:51:17
Kevin
It's a very brown black bear. I bet you I mean it's definitely a black bear. Like I'd be dead if it wasn't.

01:57:51:24 - 01:57:52:29
Kevin
But I've had people like see the.

01:57:52:29 - 01:58:08:19
Kevin
Video and they're like, not even sure, you know, and, I'm sure because I'd be dead if it wasn't, but it's like, yeah, so I should have stopped somewhere along running away. But I was just like, hey, I have bear spray in my camp. Let me just see if I can get there. And then I was just tripping, absolutely tripping balls on adrenaline.

01:58:08:22 - 01:58:11:21
Kevin
And I had I made myself just sit down.

01:58:11:23 - 01:58:15:28
Kevin
And just like, you know, and I had some, like, selfie videos and stuff, but like.

01:58:16:00 - 01:58:24:10
Kevin
And I make I wait to see if I broke my leg basically. Right. Because I've been jumping into Talis and stuff and it's way more likely that I would have just broken a leg.

01:58:24:18 - 01:58:39:14
Kevin
And then the bear would just sniff me and walk away, and then I'd just be there in the mountains with the broken leg, you know? But, I just sat there for a while. I had like, one cut and otherwise was like, yeah, maybe my ankles hurt a little bit, but was otherwise fine and then was going to spend one more night out there.

01:58:39:14 - 01:58:47:20
Kevin
And I just been sleeping. No tent, just like sleeping out. And I was just like, fuck that. I packed everything up and hiked like eight miles out in the dark. There's this.

01:58:47:24 - 01:58:48:20
Kevin
Humongous.

01:58:48:20 - 01:58:54:28
Kevin
Porcupine that scared the shit out of me because it turns out, hiking eight miles in the dark. After that experience is pretty scary, too.

01:58:54:28 - 01:58:57:20
Kevin
You know?

01:58:57:22 - 01:58:58:26
Kevin
Oh, totally. And I had this buddy.

01:58:58:26 - 01:59:02:06
Kevin
Who'd been, like, spending a bunch of time shout out Thomas Gilmore in the winds.

01:59:02:06 - 01:59:05:23
Kevin
And he was like, there's. He's like, there's not. There's like, you got to take bear.

01:59:05:23 - 01:59:09:10
Kevin
Precaution, but there's not bears. And dude, the first thing I did was call him up and I was like.

01:59:09:10 - 01:59:12:10
Kevin
There's not bears, bro. Like, there's fucking.

01:59:12:10 - 01:59:14:28
Kevin
Bears out there in.

01:59:14:28 - 01:59:19:15
Kyle
my buddy and I were, like, talking about friggin bear spray. I'm like, we're not Jerry's. We don't need bear

01:59:19:18 - 01:59:20:29
Kevin
Yeah, totally.

01:59:20:29 - 01:59:26:28
Kyle
a fucking bear spray. Literally, on the approach to fucking Petzel Ridge. Like two miles in a

01:59:28:18 - 01:59:29:05
Kevin
Oh yeah.

01:59:29:05 - 01:59:30:09
Kevin
And you got grizzlies there.

01:59:30:09 - 01:59:32:17
Kevin
That was probably grizzlies.

01:59:32:17 - 01:59:37:03
Kyle
he's like, you're bringing bear spray on every trip from now on is like, you're the one.

01:59:37:03 - 01:59:39:19
Kyle
You're the reason why we don't have it right now.

01:59:39:28 - 01:59:46:03
Kevin
Dude, I don't know if we're going to get to like my my first, first ascent, which was that big wall route. I don't know if that was something you.

01:59:46:06 - 01:59:47:03
Kevin
Oh okay. Cool.

01:59:47:03 - 01:59:53:15
Kyle
Yeah, let's talk about that. Let's just go straight to it. So yeah, this is your first, first ascent and a big wall at the same time, isn't it?

01:59:53:23 - 01:59:54:23
Kevin
Yeah, yeah. So it was.

01:59:54:23 - 02:00:03:09
Kevin
Both me and my buddies first for like, neither of us had, like, set a gym. Boulder, you know, before this. And,

02:00:03:11 - 02:00:05:02
Kevin
Yeah. So we called it,

02:00:05:04 - 02:00:20:00
Kevin
Journey to the center of the Earth. And it's in Princess Louisa Inlet in, you know, British Columbia, coastal British Columbia. It's about like, maybe it's like 80km north of Vancouver or something.

02:00:20:03 - 02:00:22:05
Kevin
And yeah, it's basically the biggest wall.

02:00:22:05 - 02:00:38:13
Kevin
I could find in on Google Earth. When I was spending a winter, just, like kind of being bombed and flying around on Google Earth, and there was an American Alpine Journal, things talking about this big wall belt between basically like between basically Squamish and Alaska of just.

02:00:38:13 - 02:00:39:20
Kevin
Like big walls.

02:00:39:22 - 02:00:45:13
Kevin
Along the coast. And so I just started flying around. I found all these insane walls, and this is the biggest one I could find.

02:00:45:16 - 02:00:46:15
Kevin
The true wall.

02:00:46:15 - 02:01:07:06
Kevin
Which we didn't climb, is 40 600ft, which is big, right? It's like one and a half L caps. And that's kind of what we set out for. We ended up climbing a route only as big as El Cap. And not as steep. Right, but, which just was like a hilarious, you know, me and a buddy I used to skip class with in high school.

02:01:07:06 - 02:01:18:12
Kevin
Just kind of like stumbling through this and one of one of our stumbles in why I brought it up was related to bears, because we had the same experience. We were in the gear store, like loading up for for this expedition. And,

02:01:18:14 - 02:01:19:03
Kevin
He's like, oh, we.

02:01:19:04 - 02:01:20:04
Kevin
Probably get bear spray. And I was.

02:01:20:04 - 02:01:21:08
Kevin
Like, do exactly.

02:01:21:08 - 02:01:23:13
Kevin
What you're saying. We're not cherries. Like, we don't need bear spray.

02:01:23:13 - 02:01:24:08
Kevin
It's like, dude.

02:01:24:08 - 02:01:26:08
Kevin
You just stand your ground.

02:01:26:11 - 02:01:30:15
Kevin
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. It's like, yeah, you just stand your ground, dude. And then we're on the boat.

02:01:30:17 - 02:01:34:09
Kevin
Out into this fjord, and the boat driver is like.

02:01:34:11 - 02:01:37:00
Kevin
Oh yeah, lots of grizzly activity over there. And I.

02:01:37:00 - 02:01:38:04
Kevin
Go to my buddy and I'm like.

02:01:38:07 - 02:01:40:14
Kevin
Grizzlies! And he's like.

02:01:40:15 - 02:01:41:15
Kevin
Yeah, dude.

02:01:41:15 - 02:01:55:05
Kevin
Like, what do you what do you mean grizzlies? I was like, I had no idea. Like, I mean, anyone should know that. But like, I didn't know they were I was like, Holy shit, dude, we need bear spray. And he was like, I told you that, man, but you I like, denied him so confidently.

02:01:55:05 - 02:01:57:02
Kevin
That it like, made him rethink his whole.

02:01:57:02 - 02:02:03:07
Kevin
Like, he was like, I guess you don't. I guess we fight grizzlies with our bare hands now, you know? And then like, as soon as our boat.

02:02:03:07 - 02:02:04:15
Kevin
Lands, you know.

02:02:04:20 - 02:02:06:19
Kevin
Like, we start shuttling.

02:02:06:19 - 02:02:07:20
Kevin
A load up to the wall.

02:02:07:25 - 02:02:09:11
Kevin
And we're doing everything.

02:02:09:11 - 02:02:16:15
Kevin
Wrong basically, you know, we're like, our first load is the heaviest load, which is not what you should do. You should carry a light load because you're figuring it out. And we.

02:02:16:15 - 02:02:17:13
Kevin
Just carry all.

02:02:17:13 - 02:02:18:00
Kevin
The metal.

02:02:18:00 - 02:02:21:26
Kevin
All the hardware, you know, and we're like just super.

02:02:21:26 - 02:02:23:15
Kevin
Bogged down. And we're literally.

02:02:23:15 - 02:02:28:03
Kevin
Within like two hours. We're crawling in the mud through like a thicket, overhead thicket.

02:02:28:07 - 02:02:32:07
Kevin
Along just grizzly tracks, just crawling in the mud. And it's like.

02:02:32:09 - 02:02:36:26
Kevin
This is terribly like it was so uncomfortable. It was so uncomfortable.

02:02:36:28 - 02:02:52:05
Kevin
And, but we never even we never even saw a bear. And then the ascent kind of continued in that fashion. And, I've just kind of, like, hilarious, hilarious, you know, just, yeah, missteps here and there. But we got it done.

02:02:52:05 - 02:02:53:20
Kevin
And other other parties.

02:02:53:20 - 02:03:04:20
Kevin
Had come to climb the wall and hadn't, you know, gotten to the, the, you know, I just kind of stopped part of the way. And we went, we went a different, took a different line or whatever. But it was. Yeah, it was two.

02:03:04:20 - 02:03:05:16
Kevin
Weeks with.

02:03:05:19 - 02:03:14:05
Kevin
With the great friend and, and, yeah, we placed no bolts. We got and, left the mountain just untouched. We, we walked off the top.

02:03:14:12 - 02:03:16:26
Kevin
Which was horrible.

02:03:16:28 - 02:03:26:26
Kevin
And, you know, probably would have been way easier to repel, and, but, yeah, that meant we left. We didn't leave anything on the mountain. And,

02:03:26:29 - 02:03:28:12
Kevin
Yeah, it's terrible.

02:03:28:15 - 02:03:35:27
Kevin
Terrible. I think we called it, like ten plus five. Ten plus. See? Two maybe. All.

02:03:36:00 - 02:03:36:19
Kevin
Yeah, all.

02:03:36:19 - 02:03:37:06
Kevin
The good.

02:03:37:06 - 02:03:44:14
Kevin
Hand cracks were just running with, like, muck and mud. And then all the free climbing was like these tiny fingertip.

02:03:44:14 - 02:03:48:17
Kevin
Scenes that we were, like, using the nut tool to, like, clean out and then, like.

02:03:48:19 - 02:03:57:13
Kevin
Like, wrench your finger in. And when you cleaned it out with a nut tool, you put all that dirt on your feet. And so now, you know, and like I had one fall where I.

02:03:57:15 - 02:03:58:03
Kevin
Like, pulled it.

02:03:58:03 - 02:04:09:24
Kevin
Pulled a piece and, yeah, it was kind of this, this whole whole misadventure, but with a really good friend. And ultimately, yeah, we got it done. And it was, it was really.

02:04:09:24 - 02:04:11:07
Kevin
Yeah, it was cool.

02:04:11:10 - 02:04:12:12
Kevin
It's cool. And, you know.

02:04:12:12 - 02:04:15:10
Kevin
I always, you know, thought like, oh, you you can't do a first descent.

02:04:15:10 - 02:04:27:23
Kevin
Until you've climbed every route in an area and then, like, you know, you know, like, Jim Deneen himself says, like, yes, you're allowed to do, you know, you're allowed to do first descents now, you know, and it's like.

02:04:27:26 - 02:04:29:06
Kevin
I mean, like you can go to for a.

02:04:29:06 - 02:04:44:22
Kevin
Sense, you know, it's like, and I thought this was an area, you know, like nobody would care about, you know, and but yeah, that kind of broke the seal of doing new routes and, and, and that has been a way I've gotten a lot of adventure from my climbing more recently is kind of looking for for new stuff to do.

02:04:44:22 - 02:04:52:26
Kevin
And, and yeah. And that with that trip was supported by a Live Your Dream grant from the American Alpine Club. And everyone should try and get one. If you're psyched.

02:04:52:26 - 02:04:57:02
Kevin
On something they give them out to, you know, anyone who's who's.

02:04:57:02 - 02:05:09:13
Kevin
Trying something challenging for them. For some people that might be getting a gym membership, you know, they'll help support that, if that makes sense in your climbing progression. And for you, you know, or it can be that trip to the valley. You've always wanted to do. Yeah you should. The American Alpine.

02:05:09:13 - 02:05:10:13
Kevin
Club is sick.

02:05:10:16 - 02:05:15:06
Kevin
And you should look into it. Live your dream, Grant. You can get one. You don't want to be cutting edge.

02:05:15:06 - 02:05:23:26
Kyle
like, where the expenses are? Travel and, like, logistics? Because I would say, like, some of this stuff is more just like, oh, I wish I could climb this hard as, like, money doesn't help

02:05:24:27 - 02:05:28:21
Kevin
Yeah I don't that wouldn't.

02:05:28:24 - 02:05:29:11
Kevin
Yeah, that would.

02:05:29:11 - 02:05:31:09
Kevin
Be a terrible pitch to the American Alpine.

02:05:31:09 - 02:05:32:08
Kevin
Club to be like, I.

02:05:32:08 - 02:05:34:28
Kevin
Want a car. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

02:05:35:05 - 02:05:38:29
Kevin
I mean, I actually, I don't know, I bet they would. They would, I bet they would fund that.

02:05:38:29 - 02:05:41:13
Kevin
I mean, you know, if like.

02:05:41:13 - 02:05:43:29
Kevin
Yeah, if it's like, hey, I really want to do this trip to.

02:05:43:29 - 02:05:59:05
Kevin
I really want to spend, you know, be able to spend a month or whatever, two weeks and, and Smith Rock or at my project or whatever. And if it, if it if, I mean, I don't know the criteria nowadays because this was quite a while ago. But yeah, if it fits into your climbing progression, like they'll try and support that.

02:05:59:05 - 02:06:00:21
Kevin
Yeah. And there's no. Yeah it's.

02:06:00:24 - 02:06:01:04
Kevin
It's really.

02:06:01:04 - 02:06:02:03
Kevin
Cool.

02:06:03:04 - 02:06:13:17
Kyle
I thought the one thing one of the things that was cool about that is that the, the decision point you guys made where you like fixed lines all the way up to 1000ft and then just dropped the bag down the wall and we're like, fuck it, we're going to the top.

02:06:14:01 - 02:06:15:19
Kevin
Yeah. Totally. Yeah. So we, you.

02:06:15:19 - 02:06:29:16
Kevin
Know we like didn't do this in like, you know, high alpine style of just in a push you know. And it's totally a wall that could be done in that way. But you know we're not those guys. So yeah we had a bunch of rope and we basically pushed the ropes as high as we could while base camping on the ground.

02:06:29:22 - 02:06:42:09
Kevin
And then there was this moment where it's like, okay, well, what's it going to be? We're out of rope. So either we're going to like climb to the top of the wall, or why did we even kind of come, you know, and we were like waiting for one last weather.

02:06:42:09 - 02:06:42:24
Kevin
Forecast.

02:06:42:24 - 02:06:45:16
Kevin
To come in on the inReach. And I remember being like.

02:06:45:19 - 02:06:51:10
Kevin
Kind of like partially hoping it would be just terrible so that we could, you know, call it good, you know.

02:06:51:10 - 02:06:52:29
Kevin
And but, yeah.

02:06:52:29 - 02:06:53:26
Kevin
So we chugged up.

02:06:53:26 - 02:07:06:01
Kevin
Our ropes and then, shoved all the ropes. We didn't, you know, we kept two ropes, a lead rope and a haul line, and, and then we shoved the rest of them into a haul bag and just, like, chucked it off the wall. And, it was funny.

02:07:06:01 - 02:07:06:22
Kevin
Because.

02:07:06:25 - 02:07:10:02
Kevin
In that, like, little clip of me doing that, I'm like.

02:07:10:02 - 02:07:24:03
Kevin
Now we're committed to the wall. And my partner. He said he didn't realize that until I said that, you know, because we just got so excited about like, oh, I can't wait to check these ropes off the wall, you know? And we're not, like, committed to the wall.

02:07:24:03 - 02:07:26:25
Kevin
And I actually think that's a common like trope for climbers.

02:07:26:25 - 02:07:29:21
Kevin
They're like there was no way down. And it's like, no.

02:07:29:21 - 02:07:33:17
Kevin
What you're saying is there was no way down that didn't involve leaking gear behind.

02:07:33:23 - 02:07:35:24
Kevin
Or it's like we had to use this terrible.

02:07:35:24 - 02:07:38:10
Kevin
Anchor and it's like, no, you chose to use that tear.

02:07:38:10 - 02:07:39:23
Kevin
Like you. Yeah, you had.

02:07:39:23 - 02:07:40:09
Kevin
Options, right?

02:07:40:09 - 02:07:41:04
Kevin
But but we were.

02:07:41:04 - 02:08:01:01
Kevin
Certainly more committed than we had been in the past. And, yeah, that was, really, really cool experience. And, and, really beautiful place. But like, I, when I posted the, when I shared the story with American Alpine Journal and stuff, the, the guy, Chris Coleman, he wrote the piece that originally inspired me, and he.

02:08:01:01 - 02:08:02:04
Kevin
Was the editor of.

02:08:02:04 - 02:08:08:25
Kevin
My piece when I submitted it. And he was like, so you didn't climb? So there's still that 40 600ft on climbed wall.

02:08:08:28 - 02:08:10:23
Kevin
And he's like, should we like, should we go?

02:08:10:26 - 02:08:12:17
Kevin
And I was like, no, man, you didn't like.

02:08:12:17 - 02:08:12:24
Kevin
It's.

02:08:12:24 - 02:08:14:08
Kevin
Terrible, dude.

02:08:14:11 - 02:08:18:20
Kevin
It's so like it's not actually the rocks really solid. But it's so like.

02:08:18:20 - 02:08:26:24
Kevin
It's rainforest kind of like vibes, you know, it's so like, yeah, but yeah. Check it out, Princess Louis. And if somebody wants a 40 600ft.

02:08:26:26 - 02:08:29:27
Kevin
For it's up there. Go for it. Have fun.

02:08:29:27 - 02:08:53:14
Kyle
What about album bio? I read your entire report. You know, it's seemed like, other than your, your kerfuffle trying to get up to high base camp. It seems like a pretty standard ascent. But it it looks like it might have been your last, like, trip where ice inspired you.

02:08:53:16 - 02:08:53:27
Kyle
Is that

02:08:55:13 - 02:09:02:18
Kevin
You know, I would say. Yeah, it's maybe my last. I'm so bad. So we've actually work.

02:09:02:18 - 02:09:06:08
Kevin
Backwards in chronological order, but.

02:09:06:10 - 02:09:07:07
Kevin
So this was pretty.

02:09:07:07 - 02:09:07:27
Kevin
Early on for.

02:09:07:27 - 02:09:10:27
Kevin
Me. This was actually kind of the start of more towards the start.

02:09:10:27 - 02:09:12:26
Kevin
Of my ice climbing. But.

02:09:12:26 - 02:09:13:26
Kevin
As far as, like, big.

02:09:13:26 - 02:09:23:15
Kevin
Mountain objectives, I've climbed, you know, Rainier a bunch since then and stuff, but, yeah, that was I think that was my only.

02:09:23:17 - 02:09:25:03
Kevin
Was this before.

02:09:25:03 - 02:09:43:12
Kevin
I don't know, I went to like, the the Ruth Gorge and stuff in Alaska, and I can't remember when that was in relation to all this stuff. I think that was after and I, and I did used to do the I mean, mountaineering was my first kind of love with climbing. I was first, I was introduced to mountaineering and, and technical rock climbing, kind of at the same time.

02:09:43:12 - 02:10:03:01
Kevin
And to me, mountaineering was like the radish it ever it was like such an adventure. And, I rolled with that for a while and then got interested in rock climbing, and I think I had an aptitude for it. And so then that was kind of appealing. And then mountains are also really scary. But, yeah. So I, you know, with that, like alpine is a super cool mountain in the Cordillera Blanca in Peru.

02:10:03:01 - 02:10:14:04
Kevin
I think it's just shy of 20,000ft. I think it's 19 five or something. Or maybe it's like nine. Yeah. Super cool, you know, beautiful, you know, is my computer background is.

02:10:14:04 - 02:10:14:27
Kevin
Like this beautiful.

02:10:14:27 - 02:10:24:27
Kevin
It's called the most beautiful mountain in the world in some 1960s German magazine. So for that reason, I had to climb it. But, yeah, I went with my buddies and, and and, I.

02:10:24:27 - 02:10:27:24
Kevin
Had, I had, like, one season of ice climbing under my belt.

02:10:27:27 - 02:10:29:28
Kevin
And they had like, less than that.

02:10:30:01 - 02:10:33:03
Kevin
But we were all kind of relatively experienced mountaineers.

02:10:33:05 - 02:10:47:27
Kevin
We had met at a at a mountain training program and like traversed the Patagonia, nice, northern Patagonia, ice cap. And so we had like kind of slogging and suffering experience and and yeah, what was funny about that was like in the emails leading up.

02:10:47:27 - 02:10:51:23
Kevin
To that trip, we were all, you know, I was like, I'll read everything.

02:10:51:23 - 02:10:53:05
Kevin
And they were like, well, we want to lead.

02:10:53:05 - 02:10:55:19
Kevin
To, you know, and then when we get on the.

02:10:55:19 - 02:11:00:00
Kevin
Climb, I was like, leading everything, which is what I said I would do. And I was like.

02:11:00:04 - 02:11:08:17
Kevin
You guys, you guys want to, take a pitch or something, you know, because, like, I'm getting kind of, you know, it's like actually kind of this kind of a lot for a newer ice.

02:11:08:17 - 02:11:19:09
Kevin
Climber, you know? And, so I ended up leading the whole climb. And then my mental armor was just shot, and then we, you know, they kind of took over for the descent, but.

02:11:19:11 - 02:11:21:02
Kevin
That was also, you know, that was again.

02:11:21:02 - 02:11:38:26
Kevin
Early on in my kind of climbing career, to be honest. And, that route is not without its hazards. And, you know, I think the next year there were fatalities on it. And I think we got away with that one because we were not fast climbers. We we spent the whole we I think we were on that thing for like 14, 16 hours or something.

02:11:39:01 - 02:11:40:25
Kevin
And now for the experience.

02:11:40:25 - 02:11:58:28
Kevin
You know, like I said, that was kind of at the beginning of my ice climbing. I continued to pursue ice climbing for many years. You know, now, I mean, I would just cycle that with somebody in like 40, you know, an hour. You know, it's like, I think it's like eight full length rope, full rope pitches. So like, you know, but, you know, we're a party of three pitching it out and like.

02:11:59:00 - 02:12:00:11
Kevin
It's not. So. Yeah.

02:12:00:11 - 02:12:06:19
Kevin
We and and what happens there, the Quartier Blanca, why it's so beautiful. It's because you have these high mountains that are.

02:12:06:19 - 02:12:08:01
Kevin
Relatively close to the coast.

02:12:08:07 - 02:12:28:23
Kevin
So you have this warm, moist air holding a lot of moisture that suddenly smack into these 20,000ft mountains and you get these incredible kind of dry ice formations similar to what you'd see in Patagonia, you know, in Elkton. And, yeah, it's just incredible. But these also destabilize as the day warms up. Just as, you know, many formations do in the mountain.

02:12:28:23 - 02:12:46:06
Kevin
And, I mean, we were exposed for all of that. I mean, we were we were starting to repel when it was getting dark again. And so, yeah, that was that was maybe biting a bit more off. I mean, we just put ourselves into the shooting gallery for, for too long and, I think.

02:12:46:08 - 02:12:46:25
Kevin
Yeah.

02:12:46:27 - 02:12:51:05
Kevin
Yeah, totally. And we were I mean, we were there early morning through midday.

02:12:51:05 - 02:12:52:19
Kevin
Through the night, you know.

02:12:52:21 - 02:13:00:17
Kevin
So, but. Yeah, beautiful, a beautiful peak and and, a fun adventure with some friends and,

02:13:00:22 - 02:13:04:11
Kyle
Yeah. It's bad. It's bad ass, man. No, I, I, just got back from Peru,

02:13:04:11 - 02:13:05:04
Kevin
Yeah.

02:13:05:04 - 02:13:06:25
Kevin
That's right. Yeah, yeah.

02:13:06:25 - 02:13:19:18
Kyle
that's definitely been on the on, like a draft table. I would say it's like, you know, it's like, how do I want to go up there? Just the ice and kind of like the glaciers and stuff. I just have zero experience with them.

02:13:19:20 - 02:13:35:29
Kyle
And so it's just like, I don't know, my lifestyle would have to change or I'd have to dedicate a large amount of time to, like, get the skills or hire somebody to go out there with me. And then it's like, not to mention, I mean, I just got back from what I was. It's like even getting to what it is, is like a fucking mission,

02:13:35:29 - 02:13:42:17
Kevin
Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

02:13:42:19 - 02:13:43:29
Kevin
Yeah. For sure.

02:13:43:29 - 02:13:51:00
Kevin
I mean, if it. Right, you know, follow your heart. If it's if it keeps nagging at you, it's like, yeah, start exploring down that path and see, see where it goes.

02:13:51:00 - 02:13:59:09
Kevin
Yeah, ice is cool. My life's definitely taken me more away from that. I think I'm kind of.

02:13:59:11 - 02:14:15:09
Kevin
I'm. I kind of okay with it because, yeah, the mountains are really dangerous. And when I started as a climber, my goal, my ultimate, was secretary. I was like, it was alpine ism. It was territory. It was like, I have to climb territory. And I felt like everything I was doing was trying to get ready to one day be able to climb.

02:14:15:09 - 02:14:24:24
Kevin
Secretary, you know, and, and, I had a hip injury that like a genetic hip deformity, basically. And I still have kind of hip problems and that maybe still.

02:14:24:29 - 02:14:26:11
Kevin
Started to psychologically take.

02:14:26:11 - 02:14:28:09
Kevin
Me away from kind of these bigger slogging.

02:14:28:09 - 02:14:29:09
Kevin
Sort of stuff.

02:14:29:11 - 02:14:30:15
Kevin
And,

02:14:30:17 - 02:14:34:00
Kevin
And then, yeah, like, I, I happened to be, you know, good.

02:14:34:00 - 02:14:44:06
Kevin
Get good at rock climbing or like really enjoy that and slowly just kind of steered me away from that. And I think I was okay with that happening. I was just like, that's dangerous, you know?

02:14:44:06 - 02:14:47:21
Kevin
And, and I can go climb on El Cap. And I feel like it's a crazy.

02:14:47:21 - 02:14:49:11
Kevin
Adventure and.

02:14:49:16 - 02:14:52:02
Kevin
But it all stays, the rock stays.

02:14:52:02 - 02:14:53:13
Kevin
And it doesn't fall down every.

02:14:53:13 - 02:14:53:26
Kevin
Year.

02:14:53:26 - 02:15:08:08
Kevin
It doesn't like, you know, so and I've started to get a lot of that kind of adventure from, you know, even looking for new single pitches to do and stuff. It's like so fun for me, especially in a place like Tahoe. There's so much rock to explore. I just can't wait. Like, what's.

02:15:08:08 - 02:15:10:10
Kevin
Around? Like, what if there's a cool, nice cliff.

02:15:10:10 - 02:15:31:01
Kevin
Around this corner? You know? And so that's I mean, developing can be kind of sketchy as well, but I can do that all kind of close to home and and with less objective hazard and, Yeah, especially. Yeah, with climate change and stuff and the stories you hear out of I've never even I've client I've spent a lot of time in, in Patagonia but I've never been to Elkton actually.

02:15:31:01 - 02:15:33:07
Kevin
And and I.

02:15:33:07 - 02:15:35:02
Kevin
Don't know if I will I don't know if I.

02:15:35:02 - 02:15:36:23
Kevin
Will, you know, it's a long.

02:15:36:23 - 02:15:38:08
Kevin
Ways to go to, like, shoot.

02:15:38:08 - 02:15:50:03
Kevin
For a weather window and stuff, and it's, like, so pensive. And then, yeah, there's just, you know, everyone thinks they're being safe, right? Nobody wants to, you know, have, ice blob kill them in their sleep.

02:15:50:03 - 02:15:51:20
Kevin
But it's still.

02:15:51:20 - 02:15:55:10
Kevin
You know, so, yeah, I think I might might not have to do that.

02:15:55:16 - 02:15:59:02
Kevin
I think I'm okay with that. Oh, yeah.

02:15:59:02 - 02:16:04:13
Kevin
Totally crazy. I haven't, like, I haven't, like, dug my fingers into it, but yeah.

02:16:04:15 - 02:16:05:03
Kevin
Yeah.

02:16:05:03 - 02:16:07:23
Kevin
Oh my gosh the. Yeah those those rye my.

02:16:07:25 - 02:16:09:08
Kevin
Yeah that was.

02:16:09:08 - 02:16:22:27
Kevin
That's dude what a legend. Yeah. Insane. Yeah. Totally cool. Crazy. Yeah. It's so crazy.

02:16:22:27 - 02:16:29:24
Kyle
with, the topic of, you know, brief, briefly talking about guiding and mentorship because, you know, you are you are a guide, your certified guide.

02:16:29:24 - 02:16:50:12
Kyle
You have your own I mean, your business vertical pursuits. And so I'd love to get into kind of, a little bit about your business and kind of what sets you apart, from other agencies. But I think the first topic on this that I'd like to cover is, you know, in the climbing culture, there's definitely kind of an aversion to hiring guides.

02:16:50:12 - 02:17:09:13
Kyle
I'd say, it's definitely, you know, built in the it's been ingrained in our culture to find a mentor, find that one person who knows a little bit more than us to to learn from them. And then that's kind of like the process. But with how many climbers are entering the scene, there's a disparity between the people who have skills and the people who don't.

02:17:09:15 - 02:17:30:17
Kyle
And while we can all be mentors for each other, in a way, in the, in a micro sense, I still think it doesn't really solve the problem. So, you know, obviously the the answer to that problem is to hiring a guide and fast tracking yourself kind of through the danger zone, especially as a drag climber into this space where we can, can play safely and learn safely.

02:17:30:20 - 02:17:51:09
Kyle
But I guess, like for people who who are struggling with the, you know, the, the financial aspect or, you know, aren't really captured by the idea of, of hiring a guide or more in this, allure of of finding a mentor. I want to talk about some of the pitfalls that we might run into as climbers when we don't follow the trajectory of hiring a guide.

02:17:51:12 - 02:17:58:23
Kyle
And, like, what are the main, common things that we're going to run into as climbers? When we don't like we we try to find

02:18:01:20 - 02:18:03:26
Kevin
Yeah.

02:18:03:29 - 02:18:04:23
Kevin
Yeah, totally.

02:18:04:23 - 02:18:22:15
Kevin
And, you know, like I'm a guy and so I'm biased. You know, I don't think people have to hire guides and, and you know that it's actually how I got into this sport is I learned through institutions. I started with NOLs National Arts or Leadership School, and that was kind of an institutionalized. I wasn't particularly technical, but that was my introduction.

02:18:22:15 - 02:18:41:02
Kevin
And I went through something that now doesn't exist. But the Mountain Training School that was mountaineering and rock climbing, ski guide training, and then of the MGA. So I've spent lots of time, hundreds of days being instructed. And now, of course, that's what I do and I still get instructed. I still take furthering education with the and stuff.

02:18:41:05 - 02:18:42:13
Kevin
And so that's how I know.

02:18:42:13 - 02:18:45:01
Kevin
And there's no there's no. So you don't.

02:18:45:01 - 02:18:46:15
Kevin
Learn without learning for yourself.

02:18:46:22 - 02:18:48:01
Kevin
Right. Even with all that.

02:18:48:01 - 02:18:53:29
Kevin
I still had to go and learn and do and learn and study and practice and and learn on my own and.

02:18:54:01 - 02:18:56:10
Kevin
And. Yeah. So like the mentorship.

02:18:56:12 - 02:19:03:14
Kevin
I totally agree with you. You know, there's there's a lot of climbers out there now and there's not a lot of mentors, you know, back in the day there wasn't a lot of climbers. And so.

02:19:03:14 - 02:19:03:29
Kevin
The, the.

02:19:03:29 - 02:19:26:11
Kevin
Climber in town would have to mentor people so that they would have partners to climb with. And that was kind of the model. And and now I think, you know, it's there's a lot of, people coming into the sport, which is great. And, there's maybe not a lot of potential mentees. I also think the, the psychology of the sport is a little bit more about the individual nowadays.

02:19:26:11 - 02:19:28:01
Kevin
And so, you know.

02:19:28:03 - 02:19:31:26
Kevin
If I take you climbing, you know, I'm not going to get to.

02:19:31:26 - 02:19:38:25
Kevin
Climb stuff that's hard for me and notable for me or whatever. And maybe I'm projecting, but, you know, I think that exists a little bit.

02:19:38:25 - 02:19:39:19
Kevin
It's like, well.

02:19:39:19 - 02:19:48:04
Kevin
What's my benefit if I take you, you know, there's actually tons of possible climbing partners. I could have, you know.

02:19:48:04 - 02:20:05:19
Kyle
your partner. Right? Like you could be a mentor for somebody who's, like, slightly not as strong as you, and they could still blame you on something that's pushing for you. That's like, maybe out of their realm for leading, but they can, like, now see the possibilities of like what's possible versus like, you know, a five, 12 plus 513 climate bring it out.

02:20:05:19 - 02:20:06:03
Kyle
Somebody for

02:20:08:20 - 02:20:10:27
Kevin
Right. Yeah. Yeah, totally.

02:20:10:27 - 02:20:12:26
Kevin
And and,

02:20:12:29 - 02:20:16:19
Kevin
Yeah. So, and then, you know, some, some pitfalls with.

02:20:16:19 - 02:20:22:14
Kevin
Mentorship again, not propelling it, you know, I think it's, I think it's great. And if you can find that and if you have the personality type for that right

02:20:22:14 - 02:20:30:05
Kevin
to, to seek that out and and and you find a relationship that works, that's fantastic.

02:20:30:07 - 02:20:37:19
Kevin
Something to look out for, though, is like, just because somebody has been climbing six months longer than you, a year longer than you, what does that even.

02:20:37:19 - 02:20:41:20
Kevin
Mean to be climbing? Like what does that mean? You climbed in the gym. You've been gym.

02:20:41:20 - 02:20:42:16
Kevin
Climbing for a year.

02:20:42:16 - 02:20:45:10
Kevin
Like you've been track climbing three times a week.

02:20:45:10 - 02:20:48:13
Kevin
You've been, you know, like, what does it mean to climb for a year? Right?

02:20:48:13 - 02:20:51:13
Kevin
You want to dig and you want to kind of figure that out.

02:20:51:15 - 02:20:52:17
Kevin
It doesn't necessarily.

02:20:52:17 - 02:21:01:26
Kevin
Mean that they they just know that little bit more than you. And that could be really dangerous. Right. They're going to do their best to share what they know, but.

02:21:01:29 - 02:21:03:14
Kevin
You know, they only know what they know.

02:21:03:14 - 02:21:12:17
Kevin
And, and, if they if they aren't professionals at the craft and even professionals at the craft, I'm learning all the time. Right.

02:21:12:19 - 02:21:14:26
Kevin
So you can kind of only, you know, as much.

02:21:14:26 - 02:21:21:05
Kevin
As they know if they're if they're the person bringing you in and, and, there's kind of so many common, you.

02:21:21:05 - 02:21:23:22
Kevin
Know, maybe they're the style of person that's like, if you're not.

02:21:23:22 - 02:21:28:24
Kevin
Trying, you're not following or something, right? So you're brought up under that mindset or maybe they're like, yeah.

02:21:28:24 - 02:21:29:06
Kevin
The leader.

02:21:29:06 - 02:21:30:02
Kevin
Shall not fall.

02:21:30:02 - 02:21:31:10
Kevin
Or whatever it is.

02:21:31:10 - 02:21:33:03
Kevin
And you'll be, you know.

02:21:33:03 - 02:21:33:20
Kevin
It's great to.

02:21:33:21 - 02:21:39:01
Kevin
You want to you want to expose yourself to as much different avenues as you can and,

02:21:43:17 - 02:21:44:27
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

02:21:44:27 - 02:21:45:23
Kevin
And often.

02:21:45:23 - 02:21:50:08
Kevin
That can be somebody when, when they're really confident about something, that's.

02:21:50:08 - 02:21:56:03
Kevin
When maybe alarm bells can go off a little bit. It's like, well, can you explain this to me? Can you help me understand this?

02:21:56:03 - 02:22:00:01
Kevin
You know, and I think I don't, I don't, I don't know, I hope people aren't.

02:22:00:01 - 02:22:07:07
Kevin
Going out there and just blindly putting trust in people. I think it's easy to do. And, you know, I shared a story where I was doing that with Brad and.

02:22:07:10 - 02:22:09:01
Kevin
But, you know, like, try and think for yourself.

02:22:09:01 - 02:22:11:09
Kevin
As much as possible. You know.

02:22:11:11 - 02:22:15:21
Kevin
People sometimes feel worried about thinking for themselves because they.

02:22:15:23 - 02:22:17:13
Kevin
They just want to be told what to do, and.

02:22:17:13 - 02:22:24:01
Kevin
Okay, that person said it or I read it in a book, so it must be okay. But the more the sooner in your climbing career you start to.

02:22:24:04 - 02:22:24:24
Kevin
Understand the.

02:22:24:24 - 02:22:26:12
Kevin
Why behind things.

02:22:26:15 - 02:22:28:15
Kevin
And not just do monkey see monkey.

02:22:28:15 - 02:22:29:24
Kevin
Do, the better.

02:22:29:24 - 02:22:37:17
Kevin
You're going to be and the better off you're going to be in the future. You know, a lot of what I do, I didn't learn in a in a book or get approved by somebody. It's just kind of like.

02:22:37:17 - 02:22:39:16
Kevin
Well, let's think through this. If this then.

02:22:39:16 - 02:22:46:06
Kevin
That, you know, like figure it out. Are we using climbing equipment sick or using climbing knots that people commonly use? Climbing suite.

02:22:46:06 - 02:22:47:06
Kevin
We're probably going to be okay.

02:22:47:10 - 02:22:50:29
Kevin
You know, like anchor building people get totally lost in an anchor building. It's like, get good.

02:22:51:01 - 02:22:54:12
Kevin
Get good gear in and tie some knots.

02:22:54:12 - 02:22:58:22
Kevin
Totally. Yeah. And you know, today, for example.

02:22:58:22 - 02:23:00:14
Kevin
Like, I was teaching lead rope soloing today.

02:23:00:18 - 02:23:01:22
Kevin
And I don't want to tell.

02:23:01:22 - 02:23:02:20
Kevin
Someone how to lead rope.

02:23:02:20 - 02:23:05:00
Kevin
Solo. I want to help explain.

02:23:05:00 - 02:23:07:22
Kevin
All the component parts. I want you to understand.

02:23:07:22 - 02:23:08:20
Kevin
Them and.

02:23:08:20 - 02:23:13:20
Kevin
Understand the pros and cons of all the various systems. And then you make an educated choice.

02:23:13:24 - 02:23:14:17
Kevin
And when you're teaching.

02:23:14:17 - 02:23:16:02
Kevin
A beginner, that's very.

02:23:16:02 - 02:23:18:11
Kevin
Hard to do, right. But we're going to start the process.

02:23:18:11 - 02:23:25:23
Kevin
We're going to, you know, as this person was describing the system and I was like, okay, and what does that do? Why do we put that not there, you know, why.

02:23:25:23 - 02:23:26:00
Kevin
Are we.

02:23:26:00 - 02:23:37:01
Kevin
Using an anti cross loading carabiner there. What's the concern. Why don't we we don't have that concern alone or with a partner. So what's different when we're alone. You know and just building that, that understanding.

02:23:37:03 - 02:23:45:17
Kevin
So yeah mentors. Mentors are great if you're if you can find that and if not, you know, consider hiring a guide if you can or joining a group, a group course.

02:23:45:17 - 02:23:50:07
Kevin
Those are often more cheaper right then than a private day. And,

02:23:50:09 - 02:23:52:03
Kevin
You know, we don't call ourselves vertical.

02:23:52:03 - 02:24:01:08
Kevin
Pursuits guides or climbing guides. You know, we think of ourselves as mentors, you know, I mean, it's for money. Sorry. You know, we got to make a living and, and, and I feel so.

02:24:01:13 - 02:24:02:08
Kevin
So lucky.

02:24:02:08 - 02:24:13:23
Kevin
That I happen to commit my life to a pursuit that other people value and want, you know, and that I can, share my knowledge and experience and that that's a living, like. That's so cool.

02:24:13:25 - 02:24:15:26
Kevin
But, yeah, you know, like, we we teach people to climb.

02:24:15:26 - 02:24:34:02
Kevin
We don't take people climbing. Like, I've guided maybe like four pitches this season. Right? But I've been teaching tons. And, you know, I'm watching people lead pitches all the time. I just mostly teach. It's it's what I love to do. And, I find a lot of reward from it. But, Yeah.

02:24:34:02 - 02:24:35:03
Kevin
You know, I think when we think.

02:24:35:03 - 02:24:39:13
Kevin
Of guides, like, there's no stigma around hiring guides in other countries, like in Europe, everyone you.

02:24:39:13 - 02:24:41:26
Kevin
Go climbing, you hire a guide. They're experts at their thing.

02:24:41:26 - 02:24:44:28
Kevin
You go with them. Right? And,

02:24:45:00 - 02:24:46:14
Kevin
Yeah, I think people think guides.

02:24:46:14 - 02:24:50:27
Kevin
Are for beginners or guides or, you know, they take you up, climbs, which is.

02:24:50:27 - 02:24:53:10
Kevin
True. And which is why, you know, even though in.

02:24:53:10 - 02:25:05:23
Kevin
The Amiga kind of the guide term is the highest level, the instructor term is actually a lower tier, basically. But I kind of, you know, I think of myself as an instructor, as a teacher, as a mentor. And I think it's.

02:25:05:29 - 02:25:11:26
Kevin
Harder to do, man, I would, you know, it's way harder setting up a lead rope solo instructional day.

02:25:11:26 - 02:25:16:21
Kevin
Than going and climbing a four pitch. Five, nine like that sounds so chill.

02:25:16:23 - 02:25:20:02
Kevin
But yeah, like, we we we teach more advanced courses, so, like, we teach.

02:25:20:02 - 02:25:38:04
Kevin
We call them all kind of our beyond the basics courses. So like beyond the basics, like we're whipping on gear, we're doing it and like, you know, multi pitch beyond the basics. It's like, you know, efficiency tips, all this sort of stuff. And, and man, there's so much to learn. I mean, like, right.

02:25:38:04 - 02:25:38:26
Kevin
I still go.

02:25:38:26 - 02:25:46:22
Kevin
To trainings where I'm taught by higher level and higher train people than, than me and kind of specific instructional things. But, you.

02:25:46:22 - 02:25:52:22
Kevin
Know, there's there's a lot that experience climbers can teach you. You know, those same you know, when you and you probably experience.

02:25:52:22 - 02:26:02:03
Kevin
It when you do get to rope up with someone that's that's really good. It's like, wow, you kind of learn a lot. And, and the pros in, in any discipline, right? Whether it's dentistry.

02:26:02:03 - 02:26:02:23
Kevin
Or rock.

02:26:02:23 - 02:26:10:23
Kevin
Climbing, it's like they kind of they kind of know what they're they're doing. I mean, not all pros are created equal. You know, the term guide is completely unregulated term in the.

02:26:10:23 - 02:26:11:09
Kevin
U.S like.

02:26:11:09 - 02:26:24:17
Kevin
Anyone can say, they're a guide, yada yada and do some digging and find out with that person has experience with what you're asking them about or, or, you know, get some recommendations or something. But I think, I think,

02:26:24:20 - 02:26:25:20
Kevin
Taking a taken a.

02:26:25:20 - 02:26:29:08
Kevin
Course, or hiring for a private day, man, we can we.

02:26:29:08 - 02:26:30:11
Kevin
Can cut through a lot.

02:26:30:11 - 02:26:32:07
Kevin
Of misconceptions and really.

02:26:32:07 - 02:26:39:08
Kevin
Help level you up. And and really, what it is, is give you a lot of confidence because we've been there. Right? It's like I've fallen.

02:26:39:08 - 02:26:45:20
Kevin
Thousands of times on gear. It's like, let's talk about it. What are your misconceptions? And let me just cut let me just help.

02:26:45:20 - 02:26:52:20
Kevin
You cut through all that stuff because you're trying to be smart. You're trying to do the right thing, but you've heard so many things and you're trying to keep all.

02:26:52:20 - 02:26:53:18
Kevin
Those things in your head.

02:26:53:18 - 02:26:55:14
Kevin
Oh, metal on metal's bad.

02:26:55:17 - 02:27:00:12
Kevin
And, you know, like, I can't over cam the cam and I can't, you know, and it's.

02:27:00:12 - 02:27:02:04
Kevin
All these things and we can just.

02:27:02:07 - 02:27:05:17
Kevin
You know, cut through all that and it's like, here's what really matters, you know, is.

02:27:05:17 - 02:27:09:00
Kevin
The rock good quality, great. Stick it stick a.

02:27:09:00 - 02:27:16:23
Kevin
Piece in there. You know, obviously that's not it. But like, you know, it's like the rock has to be good or or with anchor building, it's like there's no magic here.

02:27:16:23 - 02:27:18:10
Kevin
The gear has to be good.

02:27:18:13 - 02:27:27:14
Kevin
And then tie some knots. You're good. Right. If your gear is bad, your anchors bad. If your gear is good, your anchors good. You know, whatever. Play with your own rigging trickery or whatever.

02:27:27:14 - 02:27:30:14
Kevin
But it's like, yeah, we can cut through a lot. And and I think the big.

02:27:30:14 - 02:27:34:26
Kevin
Thing we give people is confidence. And, you know, folks go.

02:27:34:29 - 02:27:36:17
Kevin
I watch people all the time.

02:27:36:17 - 02:27:47:08
Kevin
Jump from being five, six track climbers to five five, ten track climbers right there in our in our trad course. Right. Because they have the movement skill, but they just don't have the confidence yet. And we help them.

02:27:47:14 - 02:27:49:10
Kevin
With actual.

02:27:49:10 - 02:27:55:08
Kevin
Experience. Flip the switch from I, you know, leader shall not fall to no.

02:27:55:08 - 02:27:57:09
Kevin
You've actually gotten the.

02:27:57:09 - 02:28:09:24
Kevin
Reps in place in gear and you actually place good gear. You place good gear. So you are now allowed to to take faults basically, you know, and we can and it's not just theorizing about it. It's like, you know, as.

02:28:09:24 - 02:28:11:12
Kevin
Best as we can be clear, it's.

02:28:11:12 - 02:28:21:16
Kevin
Like this is a good piece of gear, you know, based on my thousands of falls and, and, you know, and, and not, you know, yeah, not having incidents, you know, not having accidents. And, so.

02:28:21:16 - 02:28:23:06
Kevin
Yeah, I mean, I think it's up to up to people.

02:28:23:06 - 02:28:28:03
Kevin
If they want to honor higher guides, we really love what we're doing, kind of teaching more advanced stuff. We teach.

02:28:28:11 - 02:28:29:14
Kevin
Small courses.

02:28:29:14 - 02:28:37:12
Kevin
Our courses are limited to four people. For people. Right. It's like, and I think when you're looking at guides, try and look.

02:28:37:12 - 02:28:38:05
Kevin
To see if they're.

02:28:38:05 - 02:28:50:20
Kevin
Certified. You're not going to pay more for somebody that's certified. So you might as well pay for someone that's certified, in my opinion. Of course I'm biased. I am certified. And then. Yes, yes, there's a there's a difference.

02:28:50:22 - 02:28:54:16
Kevin
For sure. It's semantic. And it's not to say that people who are lower level.

02:28:54:16 - 02:29:02:08
Kevin
Certifications aren't very good at what they do, and vice versa, that people that have the full cert aren't necessarily amazing to spend time.

02:29:02:08 - 02:29:04:05
Kevin
With or, or really all that.

02:29:04:05 - 02:29:07:14
Kevin
Active rock climbers themselves these days. Right.

02:29:07:17 - 02:29:10:09
Kevin
So but you can dig, you know, and figure out, who.

02:29:10:11 - 02:29:13:16
Kevin
Am I actually going to be climbing with, what's their resume? And,

02:29:13:19 - 02:29:14:22
Kevin
And then, yeah, try and look at the.

02:29:14:22 - 02:29:22:19
Kevin
Ratio. I think any guide service should be publishing the ratio for their programs of how many guides per, you know, person, because.

02:29:22:19 - 02:29:26:09
Kevin
Often you show, you know, you show up and there's 15 people.

02:29:26:11 - 02:29:45:29
Kevin
In one guide and you're just standing around on the ground. So it's going to be that's going to be a whole different quality product. Then if you're you know. Yeah, I couldn't imagine trying to provide value to more than four people. You know, I can and even when I do a full course with four, it's like, it feels like a lot to me.

02:29:45:29 - 02:29:55:17
Kevin
I can't imagine doing more. You know, it's great. I love connecting with individuals, seeing where they're actually at and, and coaching to that. So that's some advice I would give to people looking at.

02:29:55:20 - 02:29:57:11
Kevin
Guides. You have every right.

02:29:57:11 - 02:30:08:28
Kevin
To know exactly who you're going to be going out with. And it would totally not be unreasonable to ask them their certification, you know, find out their certification level, and their experience related to the topic. If you're taking a big wall.

02:30:08:28 - 02:30:09:29
Kevin
Course, what's.

02:30:10:01 - 02:30:23:06
Kevin
Show me. Right. You know what big walls have you climbed? You know, and then, I think the ratio is really important too. And, can it can help you inform and kind of compare and stuff.

02:30:23:06 - 02:30:40:13
Kyle
someone doesn't live in Tahoe and can't particularly reach out to you or or or pursue something that you're offering. What kind of questions or what kind of like direction can the climber give to a agency, or to a guide to better serve their needs as a climber and kind of what they're going for?

02:30:40:13 - 02:30:45:05
Kyle
How can we better articulate what what we are actually looking for? From a guide?

02:30:45:10 - 02:30:50:04
Kevin
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, if you're signing up for a group course.

02:30:50:04 - 02:30:54:06
Kevin
Right, there's going to be, there's going to be like a curriculum for that day.

02:30:54:06 - 02:30:55:08
Kevin
And so,

02:30:55:08 - 02:31:13:04
Kyle
individual like I'm I'm hiring this guide for a day. Like, I feel like there's almost some sort of responsibility on us to, like, almost pick an objective or pick certain topics that we're trying to, like, solve within ourselves. Like, how can we better answer those questions for ourselves or or present these

02:31:14:20 - 02:31:16:26
Kevin
Yeah, totally. I think, you know, the more you say.

02:31:16:26 - 02:31:18:02
Kevin
The better, you know,

02:31:18:04 - 02:31:22:10
Kevin
They they ultimately, you know, a good, good guide wants to is there for you, they.

02:31:22:10 - 02:31:27:12
Kevin
Serve you, they want to get you what you wanted out of that day. We just got an inquiry.

02:31:27:14 - 02:31:29:00
Kevin
About somebody who was so specific.

02:31:29:00 - 02:31:30:14
Kevin
They were like, I want to work on.

02:31:30:21 - 02:31:32:02
Kevin
Five seven slabs.

02:31:32:02 - 02:31:39:26
Kevin
And I want an instructor hanging next to me, coaching me on my technique. And I was like, like, let's do it, I cannot wait. You are so.

02:31:39:26 - 02:31:40:07
Kevin
Psyched.

02:31:40:07 - 02:31:43:13
Kevin
On slab climbing. Let's, you know,

02:31:43:16 - 02:31:47:06
Kevin
But yeah, yeah, be, you know, be specific and and know that there's only so many hours.

02:31:47:06 - 02:31:50:07
Kevin
In a day, right? They're only going to be able to do so much for you and.

02:31:50:07 - 02:31:52:04
Kevin
Think a lot about, you know.

02:31:52:26 - 02:31:55:04
Kevin
Do you want to do an activity or do.

02:31:55:04 - 02:32:00:17
Kevin
You want to learn an activity. Right. So I often have people reach out about Big Wall and they're like.

02:32:00:20 - 02:32:01:02
Kevin
Because we.

02:32:01:02 - 02:32:08:06
Kevin
Offer like overnight ascents on and you know, in on Calaveras down here in California and out in Moab and stuff. And

02:32:08:08 - 02:32:11:05
Kevin
They're like, oh, I want to learn how to big wall like.

02:32:11:07 - 02:32:16:03
Kevin
I want to spend the night on a wall. And it's like, okay, wait, wait, those are two different things. Do you want to learn how to big wall?

02:32:16:03 - 02:32:19:06
Kevin
Do you want intensive two days course.

02:32:19:06 - 02:32:33:18
Kevin
Of us at a crag, not on a big wall, learning all the core fundamental skills. And we're going to drill them, and you're going to have such good habits so that you can then go climb a big wall on your own. Or do you want to climb? Spend the night on a wall with me?

02:32:33:22 - 02:32:34:26
Kevin
We're yeah, you're going to learn.

02:32:35:01 - 02:32:36:29
Kevin
Some skills and we'll teach you how to jog.

02:32:36:29 - 02:32:39:02
Kevin
And you'll you'll know you're absorb.

02:32:39:06 - 02:32:53:24
Kevin
Through osmosis some of this stuff that's going on. We've certainly not going to be able to do it. You know in which which of those is it going to be. So you know, like, yeah, there's only there's only so much time in a day. And. Yeah, if you come with an objective, hey, I want to climb this objective.

02:32:54:01 - 02:33:11:22
Kevin
You know, that's great. That's kind of more traditional guiding. Or if it's like, hey, I, you know, I have gear fear or I want to like, I want to workshop falling on my gear or I want, you know, a, you know, a like, experienced eye on my, my gear placements and stuff. And, I think that would be huge, man.

02:33:11:22 - 02:33:12:17
Kevin
If people can take a.

02:33:12:17 - 02:33:13:11
Kevin
Half day, which is.

02:33:13:11 - 02:33:17:01
Kevin
Often, you know, more affordable, maybe with your one year.

02:33:17:01 - 02:33:18:20
Kevin
Partner that would be.

02:33:18:20 - 02:33:22:16
Kevin
So sick. And I think a good bang for your buck to hire a respected guide in your.

02:33:22:16 - 02:33:28:27
Kevin
Area or, or like a guide that you look into and you, you, they engage in the style.

02:33:28:27 - 02:33:38:09
Kevin
Of climbing you're engaging with, with. If that's like, I like falling or I want to engage with falling on my gear, see if they engage with falling on their gear. Right. And then yeah, spend a half day and they'll.

02:33:38:13 - 02:33:41:25
Kevin
Be able to flip that switch for you. Look at your gear, be like, okay, it's pretty good.

02:33:41:25 - 02:33:45:18
Kevin
I'm noticing these trends. You're often, you know, you're placing a little.

02:33:45:18 - 02:33:47:19
Kevin
Shallow or whatever it is. Right.

02:33:47:22 - 02:33:51:15
Kevin
And then, get on the wall and, and take some falls, potentially with the top.

02:33:51:15 - 02:33:53:26
Kevin
Rope back up like mock lead style or.

02:33:53:26 - 02:33:57:03
Kevin
Whatever, and then start workshopping some falling movement in a, in a four.

02:33:57:03 - 02:34:00:11
Kevin
Hour half day. I think you could, you could.

02:34:00:13 - 02:34:01:24
Kevin
You know, eight hours better, but.

02:34:01:27 - 02:34:05:23
Kevin
You could get a lot.

02:34:05:25 - 02:34:19:00
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Right. And what's that going to cost you? It's going to cost you like a cam and a half or something, you know, like, right. Like ultimately. And you'll. Are half day rate is 250.

02:34:20:13 - 02:34:22:11
Kevin
Yeah. And I think other people.

02:34:22:14 - 02:34:31:16
Kevin
You know, you could shop that around if somebody hit me up and wanted to do a half day at my local area, that wasn't far for me. For 200, I would be super down. But yeah, check it out.

02:34:31:16 - 02:34:32:26
Kevin
You know, everyone's it's it's.

02:34:32:26 - 02:34:35:25
Kevin
All over the map. There's,

02:34:35:27 - 02:34:41:02
Kevin
Yeah. Yeah, check check it out. I think that could be that. I think for the, the biggest.

02:34:41:02 - 02:35:00:04
Kevin
Impact on your personal climbing, that would be it. Like get the green light on your gear from somebody who knows who actually falls on gear a lot and, and, have them give you some notes and maybe take some fall, take some falls. If you're excited to explore climbing in that way. But, that's what.

02:35:00:04 - 02:35:01:01
Kevin
We love to do. It's like.

02:35:01:01 - 02:35:03:08
Kevin
We like to teach a person to fish that.

02:35:03:10 - 02:35:04:16
Kevin
So that they can have all these.

02:35:04:16 - 02:35:15:18
Kevin
Experiences I've had in my climbing, which has taught me about myself, about the world I live in and about the people in that world. Right. It's like, that's what gets me excited. It's not so that they can spray about climbing five, ten or whatever. It's so that, like.

02:35:15:23 - 02:35:18:01
Kevin
It's to let them into this, into.

02:35:18:02 - 02:35:33:01
Kevin
You know, into this passion that can like help them move through the world and learn about themselves and, and, yeah, I feel so lucky to be able to, to do that and and and yeah, teach kind of more interesting stuff.

02:35:33:01 - 02:35:35:02
Kevin
The, the yeah.

02:35:35:02 - 02:35:46:29
Kevin
The leader up solid days are really interesting that falling on gear days are always really interesting. And, I learn so much honestly from the people. They ask me such interesting questions and I have to investigate and learn. And so.

02:35:47:02 - 02:35:49:02
Kevin
Yeah, it's great.

02:35:49:02 - 02:35:53:28
Kyle
find you? Where can people, kind of follow your story or find you and your guide services?

02:35:54:13 - 02:35:56:04
Kevin
Yeah. So we're vertical pursuits.

02:35:56:04 - 02:35:59:00
Kevin
Climbing.com. We're based in Northern California.

02:35:59:00 - 02:36:01:12
Kevin
We have so many permits. We've got, like.

02:36:01:15 - 02:36:07:14
Kevin
Everything covered in Northern California, pretty much, except for, of course, Yosemite. But yeah. So if you want to climb sport in the.

02:36:07:14 - 02:36:11:03
Kevin
Summer, we got you sport in the winter we got you trad multi pitch. In the summer we got.

02:36:11:03 - 02:36:30:03
Kevin
The great locations for it. We're also out in Red Rock this fall. We do trips in Mexico in the winter in El Potrero Chico. And we're also out in Moab usually in the spring in the fall as well. But yeah, vertical pursuits, climbing.com. And then our Instagram is vertical pursuits climbing and, yeah, you can, you can check us out, or.

02:36:30:04 - 02:36:31:00
Kevin
I'd be happy to.

02:36:31:00 - 02:36:47:16
Kevin
Like, punch you in the right direction in your area. You know, I've got a lot of know a lot of folks around the country that that guide. And, I can help you kind of decipher that, you know, reach out. You know, I'm always telling people, reach out. Like, if my phone was ringing, I know, call us during this conversation, right?

02:36:47:16 - 02:36:50:22
Kevin
It's like. And I tell everyone, hit me up like you've got.

02:36:50:22 - 02:37:03:21
Kevin
You know, like, I'd be happy to inform you as best I can and help steer you the right direction. I'm learning new sports that, you know, I would love that opportunity. And so, Yeah, reach out, ask questions, and,

02:37:03:23 - 02:37:21:13
Kevin
We'd love to help you out.

02:37:21:15 - 02:37:22:26
Kevin
Yeah. Thanks for chatting, man.

02:37:22:27 - 02:37:24:10
Kevin
That was, That was a lot of fun.

02:37:24:10 - 02:37:26:04
Kevin
I was worried for you, but you pulled out.

02:37:26:04 - 02:37:26:10
Kevin
A good.

02:37:26:10 - 02:37:29:05
Kevin
Interviews. Yeah. And then.

02:37:30:06 - 02:37:47:19
Speaker 1
That's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you like today's episode, please head on over to Spotify or Apple Podcast to give this show five stars. This simple gesture significantly helps this community grow. Did you know that you can watch every episode of this show on YouTube? Head on over and be sure to hit the subscribe button.

02:37:47:21 - 02:37:59:18
Speaker 1
Stay tuned for our next episode where I sit down with figure Silas Rossi. Until then, stay safe, have fun. And as always, thank you for being a part of the climbing majority. I'll see you all in two weeks.