104 | Into the Unseen: Climbing and Living with Vision Loss w/ Justin Salas

Justin Salas has a significant visual impairment. He lost his sight due to an undiagnosed optic neuropathy when he was 14. Imagine, you're a teenager fresh into highschool…you have ambitions to join the military, you already own a small business mowing lawns called J&J Lawn Care…everything seems within reach…and then in what seems like an instant…you lose your sight. While Justin is one of the most humble, capable humans I know…the impact this kind of loss has on the human mind cannot go understated.

It’s been over 16 years since Justin has lost his sight. During that time he has become the world's strongest outdoor paraclimbing boulderer, the first ever to climb V11. He is a sponsored athlete, he is building a business in the world of accessibility, and has found a life partner. And yet he still wrestles, almost daily, with the shadow of “what could have been.” His life split the day he lost his sight, and he can’t help but wonder about the path not taken—the one with sight.

In our conversation, we dig into how Justin thinks about his identity—as a climber and as a human. We talk about the maze of balancing independence with accepting help, and what Justin’s climbing experience actually feels like: how he performs at a high level, the crucial role of sight guides, and why visualization matters—not just for him, but for all of us.

We also get into choosing direction in life and how climbing can complicate our decision-making. We talk about the major pivot in Justin’s life after learning that he won’t be able to compete in the upcoming 2028 Olympics, what it’s like to be a modern day climbing athlete, and finally we close off the conversation exploring the concept of mastery.

Now, Justin and I love to go philosophical…and while you will see some of that in this episode, we also recorded an extra 45 minutes after this episode. We explore the concepts of stillness, fear, control, purpose, ambition, communication, and learning. If you like conversations where climbing is the lens but the subject is really how to live, this conversation is for you.

Watch The Climbing Majority on Youtube

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Resources

Justin's IG

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 5:31 This Wasn't Our First Recording
• 16:57 Identity
• 36:49 Chasing Independence & Needing Help
• 1:10:55 Justin's Climbing Experience
• 1:21:47 Visualization
• 1:35:44 Choosing Direction In Life
• 1:49:53 A Missed Opportunity At The Olympics
• 1:58:09 The Modern Day Climbing Athlete
• 2:06:43 What Is Mastery?

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:24
Kyle
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.

00:00:09:26 - 00:00:14:17
Kyle
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.

00:00:15:29 - 00:00:45:01
Kyle
This show is brought to you by lives in designs. That's lives. And guys, I cannot get enough of this brand. Ask anybody. They make the best apparel for the life of a climber. Comfortable, flexible, durable, all with an undeniable sense of outdoor fashion. Plus, he lives and has a wide variety of killer color options. Whether you want to stand out in the caramel yellow or keep a low profile with their dusk blue, most importantly lives and makes clothes that you can live in and climb in every single day.

00:00:45:06 - 00:01:03:14
Kyle
As an added bonus, Lives In is making their clothes with recycled ocean waste, which I think is pretty cool. And there's a 30 day money back guarantee so you can buy it. Try it, and if you still don't like it, you will get your money back. Right now you can get 15% off ET lives in by using the link in the description below and using code TKM 15 at checkout.

00:01:03:16 - 00:01:09:04
Kyle
That's the link in the description below, and TCM 15 for 15% off at checkout.

00:01:09:04 - 00:01:31:02
Kyle
Welcome back to the show, everyone. If you you're a listener and are here directly after listening to Andrew Fulton's episode. Firstly, I want to thank you so deeply for being here. I've seen so much growth in this community, and that excites me more than you know as the show continues to grow. I want to keep doubling down on providing you the highest quality conversations with the majority.

00:01:31:04 - 00:01:54:04
Kyle
Part of that growth has been doing in-person interviews in my house here in Vegas. I've set up a professional three camera recording system so you can feel the energy shared in the room. There are still many tweaks I wish to make to the setup for a cleaner, more professional environment. But one step at a time. If you're interested in watching Justin and his conversation with this new recording environment, head on over to YouTube for the full conversation.

00:01:54:06 - 00:02:15:19
Kyle
A quick favor to ask while you're there. It's super important for the growth of this show to hit 1000 subscribers on YouTube. So even if you don't consume media there, please head on over to YouTube, subscribe and support the show. I originally planned this conversation with Justin Sales right after I messaged him on Instagram exactly one year ago, before this recording.

00:02:15:22 - 00:02:39:14
Kyle
On Labor Day 2024. We sat down for a conversation after our friend's barbecue and we were, significantly intoxicated. Let's just say that episode never aired and for good reason. Now, one year later, Justin and I have spent a large amount of time together, shared lots of deep conversations, and ultimately have become really close friends. And I think you'll feel that in this conversation.

00:02:39:16 - 00:03:00:26
Kyle
For those of you who do not know, Justin Sallis is a legally blind climber. He lost a significant amount of his vision due to an undiagnosed optic neuropathy when he was 14. Imagine you're a teenager fresh into high school. You have ambitions to join the military. You already own a small, thriving business mowing lawns called JNJ Lawn Care.

00:03:00:28 - 00:03:26:02
Kyle
Everything seems within reach. And then, in what seems like an instant, you lose your sight. While Justin is one of the most humble, capable humans I know. The impact of this kind of loss has on the human mind cannot go understated. It's been over 16 years since Justin has lost his sight. During that time, he's become the world's strongest outdoor para climbing boulder, the first ever to climb v 11.

00:03:26:04 - 00:03:51:25
Kyle
He is a sponsored athlete. He is building a business in the world of accessibility and has found a life partner. And yet he still wrestles almost daily with the shadow of what could have been. His life split the day he lost his sight. And he can't help but wonder about the path not taken. The one with sight. In our conversation, we dig into how Justin thinks about his identity as a climber and as a human.

00:03:51:27 - 00:04:12:14
Kyle
We talk about the maze of balancing independence with accepting help. And what Justin's climbing experience actually feels like, how he performs at a high level, the crucial role of site guides, and why visualization matters not just for him, but for all of us. We also get into choosing direction in life and how climbing can complicate our decision making.

00:04:12:16 - 00:04:43:29
Kyle
We talk about the major pivot in Justin's life. After learning that he won't be able to compete in the upcoming 2028 Olympics. What it's like to be a modern day climbing athlete. And finally, we close off the conversation, exploring the concept of mastery. Now, Justin and I love to get philosophical, and while you'll see some of that in this episode, we also recorded in an extra 45 minutes after this episode where we explore the concepts of stillness, fear, control, purpose, ambition, communication, and learning.

00:04:44:01 - 00:05:01:02
Kyle
If you like conversations where climbing is the lens, but the subject is really how we live, this conversation is for you. Head on over to Patreon and become a subscriber to check it out for as little as $5 a month. You can unlock exclusive episodes just like this one. Plus, explore access to the ad free version of this show and more.

00:05:01:04 - 00:05:17:29
Kyle
You'll find the link in the show notes or head on over to Patreon.com Slash the Climbing Majority podcast. That's Patreon.com slash the Climbing Majority podcast. Okay, that was a lot of housekeeping. Let's dive into my conversation with Justin Salis.

00:05:31:14 - 00:05:32:26
Kyle
Man, this has been a long time coming.

00:05:33:04 - 00:05:33:19
Justin
Dude, it's good

00:05:33:19 - 00:05:34:12
Justin
to be here.

00:05:34:12 - 00:05:37:15
Kyle
Yeah, it is good to have you here, man. I'm glad we waited so long.

00:05:37:15 - 00:05:39:07
Justin
Dude. Yeah, this is a legit setup.

00:05:39:07 - 00:05:39:26
Kyle
Thank you.

00:05:39:26 - 00:05:41:10
Justin
Are you professional or something?

00:05:41:10 - 00:05:48:00
Kyle
trying to be trying to be, Yeah. Trying to bring some professionalism to the climbing space, that's for sure.

00:05:48:00 - 00:05:49:09
Justin
you're doing a fantastic

00:05:49:15 - 00:05:49:22
Kyle
Yeah.

00:05:49:22 - 00:05:50:09
Kyle
You're

00:05:50:09 - 00:05:52:17
Justin
amazing. Being able to, like, sit with

00:05:52:17 - 00:05:53:14
Kyle
you, for sure.

00:05:53:14 - 00:05:54:13
Justin
actually.

00:05:54:16 - 00:05:56:01
Justin
I don't know, there's, you know, there's there's.

00:05:56:01 - 00:05:59:19
Justin
Subtleties I feel like, that are missed when you're just doing it over the, over the.

00:05:59:19 - 00:06:00:21
Justin
Interwebs.

00:06:00:21 - 00:06:15:08
Kyle
for sure. It's much more logistically complicated to do in person. Yeah, but even if I had it, I was like, I have these ideas of, like, going and doing like a mobile studio and like it sounds great, but it's like how, like, look at this set up. Like, how would you do that with a van?

00:06:15:08 - 00:06:22:03
Justin
be hard to do on a van. I mean, you could like, probably orchestrate a van that was built solely around the studio, but then you wouldn't be able to.

00:06:22:03 - 00:06:22:14
Justin
Sleep

00:06:22:21 - 00:06:23:15
Kyle
Exactly.

00:06:23:15 - 00:06:24:00
Justin
functional.

00:06:24:00 - 00:06:25:11
Justin
It would just be a studio

00:06:25:18 - 00:06:26:04
Kyle
Exactly.

00:06:26:10 - 00:06:26:12
Kyle
You

00:06:26:12 - 00:06:28:16
Justin
just invested a massive amount of.

00:06:29:25 - 00:06:31:02
Justin
a van studio.

00:06:31:02 - 00:06:34:21
Justin
But that's cool nonetheless. But yeah, this is a this is proper.

00:06:34:21 - 00:06:42:08
Kyle
Yeah. I'm going to be sticking here for a while. So hopefully yeah. If anybody anybody's in town will this is, this will be the setup.

00:06:42:08 - 00:06:44:10
Justin
Gotta gotta, gotta get em out, you know?

00:06:44:10 - 00:06:45:01
Kyle
Yeah.

00:06:45:03 - 00:07:03:03
Kyle
For sure. Yeah. We, Yeah, we, for the first time, we had canceled because Max had some personal issues. And then I think we rescheduled for like, 2 or 3 months later, and then both you and I got absolutely wrecked on Labor Day exactly a year ago.

00:07:03:03 - 00:07:04:11
Justin
Exactly. One year

00:07:04:11 - 00:07:05:26
Kyle
Yeah, exactly a year ago.

00:07:05:26 - 00:07:07:04
Justin
couldn't be more impeccable.

00:07:07:04 - 00:07:08:06
Kyle
It was an accident.

00:07:08:06 - 00:07:16:20
Kyle
Two. I was like, hey, how about Monday? And I was like, wait a second, that's the Labor Day. I have some vague memories about Labor Day last year.

00:07:16:23 - 00:07:17:08
Kyle
They're maybe

00:07:17:08 - 00:07:19:14
Justin
they're a little bit, you know,

00:07:19:16 - 00:07:20:12
Justin
Dicey here and.

00:07:20:12 - 00:07:21:04
Justin
There.

00:07:21:04 - 00:07:27:05
Kyle
looking at the looking at the recordings. You were coherent, I was trashed. I don't know how you kept your cool so.

00:07:27:05 - 00:07:27:17
Kyle
Well,

00:07:27:17 - 00:07:28:13
Justin
I don't know. Yeah.

00:07:28:14 - 00:07:32:02
Justin
I feel like when it's game time, you just, like, focus. Even though on the inside.

00:07:32:02 - 00:07:33:03
Justin
You're like, oh,

00:07:33:03 - 00:07:37:15
Kyle
yeah, well, you got a better game face than I do.

00:07:37:23 - 00:07:40:14
Justin
You say that I don't. I don't, do very well in poker.

00:07:42:08 - 00:07:48:29
Kyle
Yeah, I was joking. I was like, we could I could release the drunken episode for like 100 bucks on Patreon or something. It's like, if you really want to watch it.

00:07:48:29 - 00:07:49:22
Justin
Make people pay

00:07:50:29 - 00:07:55:06
Kyle
And then blackmail me with it and then decline. A majority gets canceled. Yeah.

00:07:56:24 - 00:07:59:03
Justin
The majority wins. Always.

00:07:59:03 - 00:08:01:13
Kyle
always, always. We're getting stronger.

00:08:01:20 - 00:08:02:04
Kyle
Yeah.

00:08:02:06 - 00:08:02:29
Kyle
We're getting stronger.

00:08:03:01 - 00:08:06:27
Justin
Yeah. See you guys. You're out there every role. Out of people, either or a lot of.

00:08:06:27 - 00:08:14:00
Justin
People I talk to. Maybe it's because you're in Vegas and we're in Vegas, and most of the people I climb with are in Vegas. Know who you.

00:08:14:00 - 00:08:14:18
Justin
Are.

00:08:14:20 - 00:08:27:29
Justin
But for the most part, I see all the stuff on social media and I see the ads and I see your personal Instagram is doing really well. So I think people are really starting to like, take note and and see the quality that you bring to the space. And I think that's really

00:08:27:29 - 00:08:45:05
Kyle
Thanks man. Appreciate that. Yeah, it's definitely a weird, weird space in the social media world to like, stand out in the climbing. You you can get really, you know, popular on social media, but sometimes it's just all hate. Like people. There's like, people are nasty for sure. And I mean, I get it like sometimes attention is not deserved.

00:08:45:08 - 00:08:51:01
Kyle
You know, there's some people that I personally don't follow even though they're super popular. And so I'm sure there's people that don't like what I do.

00:08:51:01 - 00:08:51:14
Kyle
But

00:08:51:14 - 00:08:51:25
Justin
Sure.

00:08:51:26 - 00:09:03:28
Justin
I mean but yeah different strokes for folks right. Like I think oftentimes people get so ingrained in watching their favorite climbers, favorite climber, they, they kind of lose sight of like what's happening

00:09:03:28 - 00:09:04:28
Kyle
around them.

00:09:04:28 - 00:09:12:15
Justin
so, so and so at the gym did the nos in a day. Like what the heck. Like, I don't even know. They were like doing stuff, you know?

00:09:12:17 - 00:09:16:05
Justin
And I think that's the where the your podcast shines. I feel like because.

00:09:16:05 - 00:09:17:05
Justin
More often.

00:09:17:05 - 00:09:21:26
Justin
Than not, people are able to do a lot more grand things or just not sprang about it all the time.

00:09:21:26 - 00:09:23:00
Kyle
because it's work.

00:09:23:02 - 00:09:24:25
Kyle
Yeah exactly. Yeah.

00:09:25:09 - 00:09:26:14
Justin
You know, people don't really want to.

00:09:26:14 - 00:09:27:27
Justin
Show you, like, the nitty gritty.

00:09:27:27 - 00:09:28:17
Justin
All the time.

00:09:28:24 - 00:09:45:29
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah. It's also hard to even be noticed. And all the noise. There's so many people that climb so hard and do such cool things that, Yeah, it's just it's a full time job to, like, get noticed in this giant mess of social media that is we experience

00:09:45:29 - 00:09:49:05
Justin
these days. People, I mean, there's all.

00:09:49:05 - 00:09:53:26
Justin
Sorts of different stories out there, and there's so many reasons why so many different people are.

00:09:53:26 - 00:09:54:08
Justin
Where they.

00:09:54:08 - 00:09:59:05
Justin
Are. And the climbing, the limelight of climbing, I would say. But I feel.

00:09:59:05 - 00:10:09:28
Justin
Like, I don't know. It's not that it's played out like I still watch, like, you know, all the new releases of all these cool, hard.

00:10:09:28 - 00:10:13:19
Justin
Achievements and stuff because I just love the movement of climbing.

00:10:13:19 - 00:10:16:17
Justin
And so on. But it's so oversaturated now.

00:10:16:19 - 00:10:17:04
Justin
I can only.

00:10:17:04 - 00:10:25:00
Justin
Imagine, like trying to break into the space now and like, make a name for yourself and, you know, be an up and comer.

00:10:25:00 - 00:10:26:18
Justin
It's a completely different

00:10:27:00 - 00:10:45:02
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah I think at least with content wise the one the, the area of strength I found is consistency. Yeah. I think the key there is being true to yourself. It's like if you're a lot I think a lot of people have this pressure on social media to, like, create some sort of facade or some sort of like character.

00:10:45:04 - 00:11:12:12
Kyle
And when you try to do that, sure, you might go viral for that personality that you have, but how long can you keep that up? How many years can you be that person? And then maybe you aren't that person anymore and you feel pressured to be that person still, because that's what got you quote unquote famous, right? I know so many social media influencers, not even just in the climbing space, that kind of have that plaguing them or like they've built this personality and now they're stuck in a way.

00:11:12:15 - 00:11:14:14
Kyle
Yeah. Just eats at your soul. It's like.

00:11:14:16 - 00:11:16:05
Kyle
Social media. Because as

00:11:16:05 - 00:11:20:04
Justin
soon as something works, let's say you get like a video.

00:11:20:04 - 00:11:25:10
Justin
That does like 20 million views and all of a sudden you get like 100,000 new.

00:11:25:10 - 00:11:28:19
Justin
Followers. All those people expect.

00:11:28:19 - 00:11:29:14
Justin
You to do that.

00:11:29:14 - 00:11:30:08
Justin
Thing.

00:11:30:10 - 00:11:32:16
Justin
And then it's like.

00:11:32:19 - 00:11:35:26
Justin
No, but I'm actually like you. You saw not even one.

00:11:35:26 - 00:11:36:26
Justin
Percent of who I.

00:11:36:26 - 00:11:38:22
Justin
Am. Like, I didn't even put much.

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:45:00
Justin
Thought into that video or that photo or whatever. And now everyone thinks I'm

00:11:45:05 - 00:11:48:13
Kyle
The guy who does X. The girl who does X like.

00:11:48:13 - 00:11:49:24
Justin
guy that almost dropped his camera on.

00:11:49:24 - 00:11:50:01
Justin
The mall

00:11:52:05 - 00:11:55:11
Kyle
There. That fucking real has gone crazy. I did.

00:11:55:11 - 00:12:00:16
Justin
That's sick. But it's so real. I mean, that we've all been there. Well, a.

00:12:00:16 - 00:12:03:20
Justin
Lot of people have been there where you're like, in a situation, you almost.

00:12:03:20 - 00:12:07:16
Justin
Drop your Quickdraw or you almost drop your cam or something.

00:12:07:16 - 00:12:15:18
Justin
Is about to go really wrong. And so it's like a visceral reaction of like, oh, dude, like, what if that was the only piece he had for that moment? You know, it's like, that would have been.

00:12:15:18 - 00:12:15:26
Justin
Kind of

00:12:15:26 - 00:12:16:07
Kyle
weird.

00:12:16:11 - 00:12:40:13
Kyle
Yeah. The one weird thing I think about climbing is that I've found that it's it's such a niche community, like. And then you go trad climbing, it's like even more niche. And I think people say that, but I don't think they really realize how niche it really is. And what I found is like a lot of the the content that I see go super, super viral are the ones that explode out of the climbing community and reach the general population.

00:12:40:15 - 00:12:47:25
Kyle
It's when climbing content hits the masses that you go crazy viral. And what I found is these people don't even know what climbing is.

00:12:48:03 - 00:12:51:14
Kyle
One, two. They think climbing is the stupidest thing on the planet.

00:12:52:01 - 00:12:55:20
Kyle
Three like, have no respect for you and think you're, like, trying to kill yourself.

00:12:56:00 - 00:13:02:26
Kyle
And but it's weird because like, they they're still so attracted to the content because it's like it creates all this visceral feeling like you mentioned,

00:13:03:08 - 00:13:04:14
Kyle
but they just don't understand it.

00:13:04:22 - 00:13:17:08
Kyle
And so it's like, sure. Like, you know, it's got all this attention, but no one really like the large majority of the viewership that that real has. A lot of the people don't even grasp the point of the video in the first place. So it's weird.

00:13:17:08 - 00:13:28:20
Justin
I think that's true of a lot of like industries may not be the right word, like the, the lane that you run in because like, this is true and like the work that I do, I.

00:13:28:20 - 00:13:29:02
Justin
Do I.

00:13:29:02 - 00:13:30:28
Justin
Work in digital accessibility.

00:13:31:00 - 00:13:32:23
Justin
And then my like.

00:13:32:25 - 00:13:34:17
Justin
Normal job.

00:13:34:19 - 00:13:36:20
Justin
And like one of the biggest things is.

00:13:36:23 - 00:13:39:19
Justin
We all know what digital accessibility is in our industry.

00:13:39:19 - 00:13:46:12
Justin
And we're always talking about it on LinkedIn. And, you know, and it's like always areas sticking points and areas in which we feel like could be.

00:13:46:12 - 00:13:48:12
Justin
Improved or how we're doing this.

00:13:48:12 - 00:13:49:06
Justin
That and the other for the.

00:13:49:06 - 00:13:50:22
Justin
Community and stuff.

00:13:50:24 - 00:13:55:16
Justin
And one of my friends put it out there, just plain and simple. We have to stop talking about this amongst.

00:13:55:16 - 00:13:59:20
Justin
Ourselves like nothing's going to change. It needs.

00:13:59:20 - 00:14:02:09
Justin
To reach the people that don't know anything about.

00:14:02:09 - 00:14:03:05
Justin
This.

00:14:03:08 - 00:14:09:09
Justin
And I think that's true for climbing as well. Like at some point there's so much content, so much.

00:14:09:09 - 00:14:12:28
Justin
Media footage of like strong climbing.

00:14:12:28 - 00:14:14:00
Justin
And casual.

00:14:14:00 - 00:14:20:10
Justin
Climbing and climbing stories and all of it's awesome for climbers, but like to really.

00:14:20:10 - 00:14:27:04
Justin
I think excel and a space where you're trying to, like, reach the broadest audience. You have to make it relatable

00:14:27:04 - 00:14:28:07
Kyle
in some way.

00:14:28:09 - 00:14:39:19
Kyle
But I think that's also a trap, too, because then you become the person who's like, this is how you use a cam, or like, this is how a Quickdraw works. And then it's funny because the second you start targeting non climbers, climbers hate your content.

00:14:40:03 - 00:14:44:11
Kyle
And so it's like you piss off one group to achieve access and another.

00:14:44:13 - 00:14:55:05
Kyle
And so it's it's weird dichotomy of attention. Because I definitely I'm just a climber. I'm just filming myself climbing. So I just want to film moments like that and I don't know. Yeah. It's an interesting world we live in.

00:14:55:05 - 00:14:55:15
Justin
Yeah.

00:14:55:17 - 00:14:56:13
Justin
Double edged sword.

00:14:56:13 - 00:14:57:10
Kyle
it is,

00:14:57:10 - 00:14:59:13
Justin
I think it's incredible that the first.

00:14:59:13 - 00:15:00:14
Justin
Podcast didn't.

00:15:00:14 - 00:15:14:07
Justin
Work in the sense that we've been able to build such a rich brother brotherhood like a deep friendship. And now it's completely different. And I don't have the offer. I have the.

00:15:14:07 - 00:15:27:21
Justin
Opportunity to talk to you as my friend and someone that I trust deeply, rather than just like talking to someone that I don't know, not that talking to someone you don't know is bad, that's a different interaction, but I feel like this is a lot more.

00:15:27:21 - 00:15:28:04
Justin
Special.

00:15:28:04 - 00:15:41:03
Kyle
for sure. And I agree. Yeah. I think, you know, it's, I was actually thinking about this today, like I was trying to envision the actual, like, moment we actually first met. Like, was it one of your, like, your house parties at your house that I went over.

00:15:41:03 - 00:15:42:23
Justin
That's a good question. I mean, like the first.

00:15:42:23 - 00:15:44:25
Justin
Time we had an interaction was just like an

00:15:44:25 - 00:15:47:14
Kyle
Digitally. Yeah.

00:15:47:14 - 00:15:50:02
Justin
did we go climbing together first?

00:15:50:05 - 00:15:52:00
Kyle
We must have.

00:15:52:00 - 00:15:52:18
Justin
went climbing.

00:15:52:18 - 00:15:54:13
Justin
Together at Mount Potosi

00:15:54:13 - 00:15:56:25
Kyle
Okay.

00:15:56:25 - 00:15:57:27
Justin
around that.

00:15:57:27 - 00:15:58:08
Justin
Time.

00:15:58:08 - 00:16:04:16
Kyle
Oh, okay. And the catalyst for the actual connection was me reaching out to get you on the show. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

00:16:04:17 - 00:16:04:21
Kyle
But

00:16:04:21 - 00:16:06:04
Justin
the, the funniest part.

00:16:06:04 - 00:16:15:00
Justin
Of it was that we were, doing this, this call, trying to just like, you know, get to know each other a little bit on that onboarding call. And as it.

00:16:15:00 - 00:16:17:15
Justin
Turned out, like you just live.

00:16:17:15 - 00:16:17:28
Justin
Like a.

00:16:17:28 - 00:16:18:18
Justin
Couple blocks

00:16:18:18 - 00:16:19:01
Kyle
away.

00:16:19:05 - 00:16:21:16
Kyle
Yeah. Exactly.

00:16:21:19 - 00:16:22:26
Kyle
Yeah. Really cool.

00:16:22:28 - 00:16:39:17
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah. I've never had like a I call that my, my meet and greets. Yeah. I have yet to have a meet and greet. Like, blossomed into such a friendship. So it was cool, like. Yeah, I was like, yeah, let's get on. The show is like, actually, this guy's pretty chill. Let's hang out. So, yeah. No, it is cool, man.

00:16:39:17 - 00:16:52:19
Kyle
It's really special to be sitting down. And like I mentioned, it's, it's been quite a long time from that moment where we were, you know, just having, a guest on the show to kind of sit down in this kind of real space. So. Yeah. I appreciate you being here.

00:16:52:21 - 00:16:52:26
Kyle
Yeah.

00:16:52:26 - 00:16:55:13
Justin
Thanks, dude. I really appreciate being here. It's a huge honor.

00:16:55:17 - 00:17:15:23
Kyle
Tell you, man. Well, yeah, I think, you know, you know, I'm going to give you a big intro and, you know, there's been lots of media coverage kind of about who you are. And, you know, I just listened to the nuggets episode, and he did such a great job of kind of giving a really great foundation for your life and, your climbing.

00:17:15:25 - 00:17:20:16
Kyle
And so, you know, I think today we're definitely going to go a bit deeper. Yeah.

00:17:20:16 - 00:17:37:17
Kyle
I guess I don't want to identify you with my own verbiage. So in some articles that I've read, you've mentioned yourself as a climber who just happens to be blind. I guess, like, in this space, as a human, like, how do you identify yourself?

00:17:37:28 - 00:17:44:16
Justin
That's a good question. Well, that's not let's like fundamentally, I would say.

00:17:44:16 - 00:17:49:27
Justin
That I, I'm a child of God. Like, I think that's the most important thing. And that's how I think I view.

00:17:49:27 - 00:17:51:00
Justin
The world by.

00:17:51:00 - 00:17:55:06
Justin
And that's like been,

00:17:55:08 - 00:17:57:23
Justin
Deconstructed and reconstructed many.

00:17:57:23 - 00:18:06:20
Justin
Times to get to the point where I feel like I'm even at a place where I can say that. But,

00:18:06:22 - 00:18:13:09
Justin
Yeah, it's funny, I guess to prerequisite that that's that question with, I won a world.

00:18:13:09 - 00:18:17:28
Justin
Championship in 2018, and I remember thinking, I'm just like a kid from.

00:18:17:28 - 00:18:24:29
Justin
Oklahoma. How am I here now? So I still feel like that kid.

00:18:25:04 - 00:18:26:16
Justin
And so, like.

00:18:26:18 - 00:18:41:01
Justin
I, it seems to me like I'm a rock climber first and foremost. And then there's a whole lot of,

00:18:41:04 - 00:18:44:26
Justin
Let me start over.

00:18:44:29 - 00:18:49:17
Justin
I probably identify most as just a rock climber.

00:18:49:19 - 00:18:50:08
Justin
There's a whole.

00:18:50:08 - 00:18:54:23
Justin
Lot that goes into just saying I feel like I'm a rock climber, but.

00:18:54:26 - 00:18:55:15
Justin
Yeah, I.

00:18:55:17 - 00:18:56:09
Justin
Feel like.

00:18:56:11 - 00:18:57:14
Justin
I love climbing.

00:18:57:14 - 00:18:57:22
Justin
I just

00:18:57:22 - 00:18:59:02
Kyle
like to go climbing.

00:18:59:05 - 00:19:26:21
Kyle
How long have you been climbing now at this point? Ten years. And I'd say like, you know, because of your visual impairment, I would say a lot of, like, the media and the narrative that has kind of been built around you is kind of through this lens of your visual impairment. You know, in your, in your, in your answer to this question about identity, you know, you're a climber first, like, that's that your main source of identity.

00:19:26:21 - 00:20:01:16
Kyle
Whereas it seems like from an outsider's perspective who someone doesn't know you, it's like, oh, that's the blind climber. Like, oh, Justin the blind climber. Like, I would imagine that's how a lot of people who don't really know you, you know, identify you. You know, and so in that aspect, like, do you feel like the world has kind of boxed you in in a way, in regards to the narrative that the kind of world has built, for you and is there something about that that like.

00:20:01:18 - 00:20:09:23
Kyle
Like, is bringing up a portion of your identity that you don't necessarily like, want to have to identify with and such a consistent basis?

00:20:09:26 - 00:20:10:03
Kyle
That's

00:20:10:03 - 00:20:13:29
Justin
a good question. Yeah. Because I when I started climbing.

00:20:13:29 - 00:20:30:14
Justin
It was just because I didn't have a lot going in life that I was like trying to figure out what the next chapter was supposed to be. When I found climbing, it was something I really liked. I had like a deep passion for it, so I was just like, I'm going climbing all the time, like, that's what we do.

00:20:30:17 - 00:20:32:29
Justin
And then it wasn't until, like.

00:20:33:02 - 00:20:35:26
Justin
Word started getting around that.

00:20:35:28 - 00:20:36:19
Justin
You know, I was doing.

00:20:36:19 - 00:20:38:17
Justin
Really well and.

00:20:38:20 - 00:20:41:08
Justin
I was dealing with these circumstances.

00:20:41:09 - 00:20:42:02
Justin
Of, you.

00:20:42:02 - 00:20:49:04
Justin
Know, vision loss. And people found a really interesting how I adapted to it. And so the story.

00:20:49:04 - 00:20:55:23
Justin
And the narrative started forming and, you know, I, I leaned into it. You know, I.

00:20:55:23 - 00:20:57:02
Justin
Think that was like the natural.

00:20:57:02 - 00:21:04:26
Justin
Evolution of that. And even though the story started like.

00:21:04:26 - 00:21:07:17
Justin
Manifesting by itself.

00:21:07:19 - 00:21:15:26
Justin
I found that in some situations that narrative was great because people very quickly were.

00:21:15:26 - 00:21:19:11
Justin
Able to identify.

00:21:19:14 - 00:21:20:14
Justin
What I was up.

00:21:20:14 - 00:21:23:16
Justin
Against, if they ran into me at the crag, or if they saw me out.

00:21:23:16 - 00:21:28:03
Justin
In person or whatever, it was like, they could pretty quickly like.

00:21:28:05 - 00:21:35:22
Justin
Oh, I know he can't see me, I'll come up and introduce myself, that kind of stuff. So there are situations like that that are good.

00:21:35:24 - 00:21:36:07
Justin
But it is.

00:21:36:07 - 00:21:40:17
Justin
Interesting to that. Like oftentimes within like.

00:21:40:17 - 00:21:41:24
Justin
Media or selling.

00:21:41:24 - 00:21:43:15
Justin
Yourself as an.

00:21:43:15 - 00:21:47:13
Justin
Athlete, it can be like challenging.

00:21:47:14 - 00:21:50:08
Justin
To some degree to always be like repeating.

00:21:50:08 - 00:21:54:20
Justin
Yourself. Especially like with a visual impairment like mine.

00:21:54:20 - 00:21:56:08
Justin
Where it doesn't seem as though it's.

00:21:57:10 - 00:22:03:23
Justin
It doesn't manifest itself super. Obviously, sometimes it seems that it can be.

00:22:03:25 - 00:22:12:06
Justin
Demonstrative to always be. I'm. I'm the blind guy. I'm a blind climber. Every video starts with, I'm just. I'm the blind climber.

00:22:12:06 - 00:22:19:16
Justin
You know, it's like, it kind of feels to me like it's just someone else moaning about a problem that they have online.

00:22:19:18 - 00:22:23:25
Justin
And, I don't know, I started, like.

00:22:23:25 - 00:22:27:05
Justin
Kind of second guessing myself with a lot of the way that I put myself.

00:22:27:05 - 00:22:34:11
Justin
Forward. And I didn't want to, like, stretch the truth or, I felt insecure about.

00:22:34:11 - 00:22:40:18
Justin
Talking about certain things. So, like. Yeah, maybe like to sum up the question.

00:22:40:18 - 00:22:46:00
Justin
Like it has its perks and it also comes.

00:22:46:00 - 00:22:46:13
Justin
With a.

00:22:46:17 - 00:22:49:08
Justin
Big set of like a, some

00:22:49:08 - 00:22:49:19
Kyle
baggage.

00:22:49:19 - 00:22:53:29
Kyle
Yeah. You found climbing before you lost your vision. After. That's right.

00:22:54:02 - 00:22:55:27
Kyle
Yeah. Because I was like,

00:22:56:01 - 00:23:13:25
Justin
Still riding BMX and still playing soccer and all these things. And climbing was like the only thing that I felt like I could actually like there wasn't a stopping point that I could find. Whereas with, like some of the other things like, yeah, I could do bars, bands and spins and stuff, but like tail whips, I don't.

00:23:13:25 - 00:23:16:00
Justin
Know, it's hard.

00:23:16:02 - 00:23:21:16
Justin
Hard for me to find the pedals when I came back around and I would run into parked cars and stuff and like, that shit.

00:23:21:16 - 00:23:21:23
Justin
Are

00:23:21:23 - 00:23:23:26
Kyle
stuff.

00:23:23:26 - 00:23:24:07
Justin
you.

00:23:24:07 - 00:23:25:15
Justin
Know, my shins. I don't know

00:23:25:15 - 00:23:28:00
Kyle
there's a lot more uncontrollable variables.

00:23:28:02 - 00:23:29:05
Justin
Exactly. Yeah.

00:23:29:06 - 00:23:30:13
Justin
There's, there's like.

00:23:30:19 - 00:23:31:03
Justin
Yeah. I mean.

00:23:31:03 - 00:23:38:09
Justin
There's, like inherent risk in what we do, but like, you try to minimize and be so in control that you're, like calculating every given.

00:23:38:29 - 00:23:40:13
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:40:24 - 00:23:51:14
Kyle
So I guess like for, for people who aren't fully aware of exactly kind of what your visual reality is like, I guess. Give us a quick picture of like what your visual experience is like.

00:23:51:17 - 00:23:52:01
Kyle
Yeah,

00:23:52:01 - 00:23:53:04
Justin
totally. Yeah.

00:23:53:04 - 00:23:54:22
Justin
It's interesting. So I.

00:23:54:25 - 00:23:57:27
Justin
I found when I was younger.

00:23:57:29 - 00:24:00:21
Justin
Blindness seemed like it was pretty binary.

00:24:00:21 - 00:24:01:28
Justin
Yeah. I

00:24:02:01 - 00:24:05:18
Justin
That's probably like most people's perception of what blindness is.

00:24:05:25 - 00:24:08:24
Kyle
Like dark void or fully color.

00:24:08:29 - 00:24:10:02
Justin
Yeah, exactly.

00:24:10:03 - 00:24:18:15
Justin
Like you either see. Well, maybe you need glasses, but otherwise blindness is like a black blind individual that uses a cane and they like.

00:24:18:17 - 00:24:18:27
Justin
You know.

00:24:18:27 - 00:24:19:20
Justin
They're like, hand.

00:24:19:20 - 00:24:21:03
Justin
Stretched out.

00:24:21:06 - 00:24:22:08
Justin
Squeeze as you squeeze

00:24:22:14 - 00:24:25:01
Kyle
Yeah, yeah. And blind guy makes squeezy.

00:24:27:25 - 00:24:29:07
Justin
Which is just good comedy.

00:24:30:29 - 00:24:41:01
Justin
I remember, I think I've said this before, but I was like, there was a guy at the church that I went to as a kid, and he was completely blind, and, I was.

00:24:41:01 - 00:24:41:29
Justin
Like, jumping.

00:24:41:29 - 00:24:43:16
Justin
Around and dancing in front of him. And that.

00:24:43:16 - 00:24:45:00
Justin
Was. And he, you know, I had no.

00:24:45:00 - 00:24:47:18
Justin
Idea other than the fact that I was.

00:24:47:20 - 00:24:49:13
Justin
Probably extremely.

00:24:49:13 - 00:25:05:17
Justin
Obvious, you know, like, obviously he can hear really well. He's got amazing proprioception, most likely. So I'm sure that he knew what was going on. But I and my childish view of what was going on was, this is just what blindness is. He can't see.

00:25:05:18 - 00:25:06:18
Justin
Me.

00:25:06:20 - 00:25:09:15
Justin
And then going through vision loss. Now,

00:25:09:15 - 00:25:20:10
Justin
I've realized that that spectrum is huge. Everyone has all sorts of different types of vision loss, and so mine just so happens to be no. Or that's like 5% vision in the middle.

00:25:20:12 - 00:25:22:06
Justin
Like right in.

00:25:22:06 - 00:25:28:29
Justin
The center is missing. And then my peripheral works to a certain degree, although my left eye is like.

00:25:29:02 - 00:25:30:28
Justin
It's pretty bad now.

00:25:31:00 - 00:25:40:14
Justin
Like it's gotten very dark. It's almost hardly even usable now. Right eye is a lot better. But my.

00:25:40:14 - 00:25:42:25
Justin
Peripheral vision works pretty well.

00:25:42:27 - 00:25:50:06
Justin
Minus the fact that I needed glasses when I was a kid anyway. So I'll like I can correct for the eye itself, but because the optic.

00:25:50:06 - 00:25:53:27
Justin
Nerve is what's dyed or partially dead.

00:25:53:29 - 00:26:05:21
Justin
Even if you correct the the eyes with some type of vision modality, it doesn't do anything because the it's like a camera sensor. If the sensors damaged, not a whole lot of information is getting in there.

00:26:05:21 - 00:26:09:23
Kyle
And is it continually degenerative.

00:26:10:05 - 00:26:13:11
Justin
Yeah, that's a good question. The reason.

00:26:13:11 - 00:26:16:00
Justin
I say it's a good question is because it's not diagnosed.

00:26:16:00 - 00:26:17:09
Kyle


00:26:17:11 - 00:26:17:16
Kyle
Well.

00:26:17:16 - 00:26:20:28
Kyle
I guess in your experience is it degenerative like. Okay.

00:26:21:05 - 00:26:22:01
Kyle
But

00:26:22:01 - 00:26:31:01
Justin
like all the best doctors in the country have told me that it won't be completely shut out blind. But there's actually no.

00:26:31:01 - 00:26:34:03
Justin
Way to to say that. Like, definitely.

00:26:34:03 - 00:26:57:20
Kyle
How was that? How was dealing with the lack of prognosis, lack of diagnosis when you were like, told, you're like you have vision loss. And they're like, well, we don't know what it is or what's going to happen. Like, was that kind of that as easy as, like you broke your leg? It's like, or you got your foot chopped off, like it's a bit more conceptually, you know, you're able to conceptualize that and kind of accept that seems like yours is a bit more like.

00:26:57:23 - 00:27:00:16
Kyle
Fleeting. It's not really. You can't really lock anything down. Yeah.

00:27:00:16 - 00:27:07:08
Justin
Yeah for sure.

00:27:07:10 - 00:27:11:11
Justin
It's tough because like it is what it is.

00:27:11:13 - 00:27:13:26
Justin
And it just.

00:27:13:29 - 00:27:23:04
Justin
Like it's tangible because it's what I live with. And so it kind of doesn't matter what the diagnosis is to some degree. Like you can't change it.

00:27:23:04 - 00:27:29:20
Justin
So it is what it is. But on the other side of it, when the vision loss was happening.

00:27:29:22 - 00:27:33:10
Justin
Yeah, it was my reality. But also.

00:27:33:10 - 00:27:34:26
Justin
The doctors were telling me that.

00:27:34:26 - 00:27:38:23
Justin
It was like in my head, like it's stress

00:27:38:23 - 00:27:40:02
Kyle
Oh like

00:27:40:02 - 00:27:43:18
Justin
I don't know, that was like a low point.

00:27:43:18 - 00:27:44:21
Justin
You know, it's like.

00:27:44:23 - 00:27:46:05
Justin
I'm stressed because I

00:27:46:05 - 00:27:47:28
Kyle
can't see you.

00:27:48:00 - 00:27:51:04
Kyle
Yeah. Chicken before the egg. You're like, no, it's definitely the chicken.

00:27:51:04 - 00:27:52:27
Justin
Yeah, exactly. So even.

00:27:52:27 - 00:27:55:16
Justin
My parents were like PhD, you.

00:27:55:16 - 00:27:59:18
Justin
Know, like, whatever it is and like,

00:27:59:23 - 00:28:02:14
Kyle
That sucks. How long did it take for people to take you seriously?

00:28:02:14 - 00:28:05:04
Justin
I don't know if, like through my child.

00:28:05:04 - 00:28:05:20
Justin
Had people.

00:28:05:20 - 00:28:07:24
Justin
Really ever did, like, at least, like, clinically.

00:28:07:24 - 00:28:08:28
Kyle
Wow.

00:28:09:19 - 00:28:16:00
Justin
Especially because they couldn't say that it was like defined to a specific genome that pointed to a specific type of

00:28:16:00 - 00:28:17:25
Kyle
vision loss. Yeah. It wasn't like.

00:28:18:03 - 00:28:19:13
Justin
You have Libra's hereditary.

00:28:19:13 - 00:28:25:13
Justin
Optic neuropathy, or you have star guards or whatever. It was like, well.

00:28:25:15 - 00:28:26:04
Justin
Yeah, we.

00:28:26:04 - 00:28:43:26
Justin
Can see that your optic nerve is dying. And that was like probably the the biggest thing was going to a neuro ophthalmologist and that guy actually looking at my brain, looking at the nerves and pinpointing to the optic nerve and saying, yes, you're optic nerve is dying or dead.

00:28:43:26 - 00:28:46:23
Justin
Or but it's well swelled to a.

00:28:46:23 - 00:28:48:17
Justin
Point in which that it started to

00:28:48:17 - 00:28:49:24
Kyle
well.

00:28:49:24 - 00:28:57:22
Justin
And he could look at it on his imaging and tell me that, you know, definitely, that that guy.

00:28:57:22 - 00:28:58:19
Justin
Was really cool.

00:28:58:19 - 00:29:03:23
Kyle
Yeah. At least gave you some actual, like, concrete answers to what's anatomically happening.

00:29:03:23 - 00:29:04:28
Justin
Well, yeah. I mean, I guess.

00:29:04:28 - 00:29:20:10
Justin
That's the point of a specialist, though, right? Like they're going to be able to look at things in a completely different lens that someone who's like, filtering out people that are like, complaining about their vision at a general eye exam, even if it's like a little bit more of a a deeper.

00:29:20:10 - 00:29:22:05
Justin
Look than the average person, they're.

00:29:22:05 - 00:29:24:19
Justin
Still going to be able to like.

00:29:24:21 - 00:29:25:05
Justin
Dig.

00:29:25:05 - 00:29:41:09
Justin
Deeper and they have a more rich knowledge base of all these different types of visual problems and diseases that they've come across. And their whole job is to try and figure out what the problem is. But I just so happen to be a case where the no one could figure out what the problem problem was.

00:29:41:09 - 00:29:55:23
Kyle
In your experience, has that been a pretty common thing for people with visual impairment, like undiagnosed like, would you call it near neuropathy? Optic neuropathy? Is that like a car? Like a have you seen that before or is that like a pretty rare case?

00:29:55:23 - 00:29:56:12
Justin
I haven't.

00:29:56:16 - 00:30:01:20
Justin
Met too many people in the blind community that have, like, a completely undiagnosed eye.

00:30:01:20 - 00:30:04:03
Justin
Disease. Yeah, interesting.

00:30:04:05 - 00:30:07:09
Justin
A lot of people end up with something called retinitis pigmentosa in.

00:30:07:09 - 00:30:08:09
Justin
Their later years.

00:30:08:09 - 00:30:18:11
Justin
Or sometimes, like some of my friends have retinitis pigmentosa, RPE, and it develops as a child, and they may never lose their vision. But.

00:30:18:14 - 00:30:18:24
Justin
A lot.

00:30:18:24 - 00:30:33:13
Justin
Of people will get that eye disease, later in life. And it kind of comes out of the blue and there's like a little bit of investigating, but they eventually they like, pinpoint it to something. So those diseases that come out of the blue or.

00:30:33:16 - 00:30:34:03
Justin
You know, heart.

00:30:34:09 - 00:30:36:03
Justin
Sometimes hard to diagnose.

00:30:36:03 - 00:30:36:12
Justin
But

00:30:36:12 - 00:30:37:04
Kyle
yeah.

00:30:37:04 - 00:30:37:10
Justin
yeah.

00:30:37:11 - 00:30:41:16
Justin
I've had like, blood test.

00:30:41:19 - 00:30:43:06
Justin
Whoops. I've

00:30:43:06 - 00:30:44:15
Justin
had blood test.

00:30:44:18 - 00:30:51:08
Justin
Sent to the National Eye Institute, saliva DNA test.

00:30:51:10 - 00:30:54:23
Justin
Bone scans,

00:30:54:26 - 00:30:59:23
Justin
MRI's, Cat scans and Cat scans with contrast.

00:30:59:26 - 00:31:00:24
Justin
I mean, literally.

00:31:00:24 - 00:31:01:23
Justin
The like through the books.

00:31:01:23 - 00:31:02:01
Justin
I

00:31:02:01 - 00:31:02:21
Kyle
Wow.

00:31:03:13 - 00:31:04:23
Justin
Yeah, I'll, I'll

00:31:05:01 - 00:31:07:14
Kyle
Inconclusive. Interesting.

00:31:07:14 - 00:31:11:02
Justin
Now that like, there was, you know, at least for me and my own little.

00:31:11:02 - 00:31:23:20
Justin
Sherlock Holmes adventures, I had I had almost died from a hip infection a couple of years. I'm maybe a little bit vague on the timeline, but.

00:31:24:17 - 00:31:37:13
Justin
I think I had my 13th birthday in the hospital because I had a septic hip. I got MRSA, staph infection on my hip joint, and it almost killed me. And then, like, maybe a.

00:31:37:13 - 00:31:43:14
Justin
Year or two approximately, I started losing my vision. And they lost.

00:31:43:16 - 00:31:50:19
Justin
I think it might have been related to the drug that they gave me. There was an antibiotic called vancomycin.

00:31:51:22 - 00:31:53:08
Justin
And Vanke is like.

00:31:53:11 - 00:31:55:17
Justin
It's pretty potent. Like.

00:31:55:19 - 00:32:01:11
Justin
At the time, it was like the strongest antibiotic that was known to man.

00:32:01:11 - 00:32:03:02
Justin
And they were.

00:32:03:02 - 00:32:13:03
Justin
Treating my sepsis with that drug. And come to find out that it has caused, like, quite a few different types of atrophies of different nerves at the body.

00:32:13:03 - 00:32:16:02
Justin
So I'm like, that that kind of makes sense. You

00:32:16:02 - 00:32:17:15
Justin
know, like.

00:32:17:18 - 00:32:31:08
Justin
Especially one doctor who was like, she was like retiring and, she, worked at the, it was called New View in Oklahoma. Like a blindness clinic for all sorts of different types of issues with blindness and.

00:32:31:11 - 00:32:35:22
Justin
She was like, you've been keeping me up at night. You know, I'm like, what'd you find out?

00:32:35:22 - 00:32:49:07
Justin
And then she, like, put this massive stack of papers on the desk and was like, pointing out all these things with vancomycin and and stuff, and then she, like, closed it and then was like.

00:32:49:09 - 00:33:00:28
Justin
Before you lost your vision. Did it ever seem like you were looking through a screen door one day? And I was like, yeah, you know, like, why? And she was like, well.

00:33:00:28 - 00:33:02:03
Justin
What was that moment like?

00:33:02:03 - 00:33:08:22
Justin
And I was like, I don't know. I played a ton of video games as a kid. Like, I was the I was so.

00:33:08:22 - 00:33:09:19
Justin
Good at Halo two,

00:33:11:25 - 00:33:21:00
Justin
like I was, I was really like, and one day I couldn't see the TV very well. And so I just stopped playing and I went out to dinner and.

00:33:21:00 - 00:33:22:15
Justin
I was like, I can't see very well.

00:33:22:17 - 00:33:30:27
Justin
That's like, I don't know. It's like beyond any type of issues that I've had where I needed glasses or whatever. And my dad kind of.

00:33:30:27 - 00:33:31:25
Justin
Just was like, oh, you.

00:33:31:25 - 00:33:34:05
Justin
Just been playing so many video games.

00:33:34:07 - 00:33:35:11
Justin
But I know that's.

00:33:35:11 - 00:33:37:17
Justin
Such a dad thing to say.

00:33:37:19 - 00:33:42:24
Justin
But I believed what he.

00:33:42:24 - 00:33:43:10
Justin
Was saying.

00:33:43:10 - 00:33:44:29
Justin
Because he was for

00:33:44:29 - 00:33:47:26
Kyle
sure, right?

00:33:47:29 - 00:33:49:13
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:49:15 - 00:33:51:29
Justin
So, yeah, I mean.

00:33:52:01 - 00:34:01:18
Justin
When she said you did, it look like you were looking through a screen door for sure. That was that was a moment. If they could have caught that.

00:34:01:18 - 00:34:03:17
Justin
Moment, that could have.

00:34:03:17 - 00:34:10:14
Justin
Potentially given me steroids and reduced the swelling and limited any vision loss I could have ever.

00:34:10:14 - 00:34:11:07
Justin
Had.

00:34:11:07 - 00:34:27:20
Kyle
Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. I think it's easy to connect the dots there and basically, like, self-diagnose yourself in that way. At least that's what I would do. I'd be like, for sure. That's it. Like, even if it's not true, it's well within a shadow of a doubt that is willing. I'm willing to just believe it. Yeah.

00:34:27:23 - 00:34:34:11
Kyle
But at that time, it seems like, you know, you had a serious infection, too. So it's like, maybe you could have died.

00:34:34:11 - 00:35:03:00
Justin
I was pretty close. I don't think people really let on to how close I really was because, like, my fever was 106 and I couldn't stop it. It just was like my body was septic. I was shutting down. And when they finally did, like, they biopsied the, the site in my hip and they cultured it. And as soon as they figured out that it was a staph infection, because MRSA is just a form of staph infection.

00:35:03:00 - 00:35:22:00
Justin
And if there's doctors listening and that's incorrect, I sincerely apologize. But for that's from what I understand. And they were able to, biopsy that. And as soon as they got the results, like a whole herd of people rushed into my room and I was like, we're going to surgery. We're like, where.

00:35:22:05 - 00:35:22:13
Justin
We.

00:35:22:13 - 00:35:29:17
Justin
Have to go right now. Because they knew that I wasn't very far away. So, yeah, that was a whole journey back when I was a young

00:35:29:17 - 00:35:35:28
Kyle
know. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. It's like the Lord spared your life, but it came at a cost.

00:35:36:05 - 00:35:37:08
Justin
Yeah. For sure.

00:35:37:11 - 00:35:45:19
Justin
Well, you know, there's always collateral. Just like anything in life. War and and social dynamics and whatever. It's like.

00:35:45:22 - 00:35:49:12
Justin
And it is what it is. There's always a balance to life.

00:35:49:12 - 00:36:06:22
Kyle
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Kyle
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00:36:48:09 - 00:37:11:28
Kyle
like, now, you know, you're sitting here and, you know, to someone without knowing you very well or someone that lives even even someone knowing you and then like, hanging out with you on a day to day basis, like there are moments where I forget that you are visually impaired. Like, and to the point where, like, I don't even know, like I just expect you to be able to do things in a way like navigation or or like hiking or whatever.

00:37:12:01 - 00:37:32:06
Kyle
It's almost like there's a point to where you don't want to baby you. And there's also the point where it's like, sometimes I just straight up forget that. Like, maybe Justin needs a little bit of help here. But I think that's a testament to how well adapted you've become to not only existing with your visual impairment, but appearing as if you don't have one.

00:37:32:09 - 00:37:57:11
Kyle
So I guess talk to me about that skill and, how it's kind of shaped like people's interaction with you because there's like this weird balance between like, hey, I'm got a disability. Like, I might need some help here versus this strive for, like, independence. Yeah. Talk to me about that kind of balance between those two things.

00:37:57:13 - 00:37:57:28
Kyle
Yeah.

00:37:58:00 - 00:37:58:29
Kyle
I mean,

00:37:58:29 - 00:38:00:14
Justin
it's.

00:38:00:14 - 00:38:14:28
Justin
Tricky because at the school for the blind, I found it so traumatizing because I just didn't want anything to do with it in the beginning, you know? And I had, like, some low vision counselors in there, like, you're fighting your vision loss.

00:38:15:00 - 00:38:18:00
Justin
You know, you should flow with it like Taichi. And I'm like, what do you know?

00:38:18:00 - 00:38:18:14
Justin
You know,

00:38:18:14 - 00:38:19:25
Kyle
Yeah. You can see.

00:38:19:25 - 00:38:21:02
Justin
well, this woman.

00:38:21:02 - 00:38:22:02
Justin
And she was

00:38:22:02 - 00:38:22:12
Kyle
Completely.

00:38:22:12 - 00:38:23:27
Kyle
Like, oh, okay. Well.

00:38:23:27 - 00:38:32:29
Justin
And she was, like, kind of being hard on me. And she was like, you just. You hate this. I'm like, of course.

00:38:33:01 - 00:38:51:08
Justin
What are you talking about? Like, it's not like. It's, It's it's more than just like. Being set back physically.

00:38:51:10 - 00:39:02:01
Justin
Like it impacts everything. Like a fully capable human. And all of a sudden you're you're, like, limited visually and the whole world is designed around vision, more or less.

00:39:03:09 - 00:39:28:07
Justin
And so, yeah, I hated it. And so when I went to the school for the blind, it was like everything thing magnified. And all those thoughts, all that like intrinsic unpacking of what it is that I'm trying to overcome emotionally and psychologically just magnified in this place.

00:39:28:09 - 00:39:34:21
Justin
And so I saw what that looked like there.

00:39:34:23 - 00:39:36:12
Justin
And I didn't want anything to do with it.

00:39:36:16 - 00:39:38:17
Justin
And so I was like, I'm just going to pretend.

00:39:38:19 - 00:39:40:24
Justin
And come up with all these coping mechanism.

00:39:40:24 - 00:39:45:03
Justin
Names so that I can just blend in.

00:39:45:06 - 00:39:45:19
Justin
Because I was.

00:39:45:19 - 00:39:50:18
Justin
Dealing with childhood friends being like, oh, Justin, he can't see you anymore.

00:39:50:18 - 00:40:01:25
Justin
And like, all sorts of stuff. And so I was like, I'm just going to, like, kind of blend in because I thought that that was easier. Like, if you're at a party with a bunch of friends, house.

00:40:02:15 - 00:40:07:29
Justin
Party with a bunch of friends, and everyone's watching TV, it was so much easier to just, like, pretend like I was watching.

00:40:07:29 - 00:40:12:13
Justin
TV and no one really knew otherwise.

00:40:12:16 - 00:40:21:04
Justin
And so I started doing that all the time, like, just constantly. And so it turned into, like.

00:40:21:07 - 00:40:28:15
Justin
That's how I would ride bikes and I would, like, go and play soccer with friends, and no one would know until.

00:40:28:15 - 00:40:31:17
Justin
They were like, the ball went out of bounds and then they'd throw it back at

00:40:31:17 - 00:40:34:21
Kyle
me and it would just hit me in the face. I was like,

00:40:34:21 - 00:40:39:08
Justin
what? He's like normal, but he's weird, you know? Like something.

00:40:39:08 - 00:40:41:07
Justin
Some something's off with that guy.

00:40:41:08 - 00:40:44:26
Justin
Like, he seems like he's not all there, but.

00:40:44:26 - 00:40:52:01
Justin
And those interactions, I never saw those people again. So, no one really thought too much of it.

00:40:52:04 - 00:41:03:22
Justin
Then I started getting into more outdoor stuff, and I just started using trekking poles like my canes and feeling the ground. And then eventually you kind of learn the flow of the nature.

00:41:03:22 - 00:41:04:20
Justin
And maybe that.

00:41:04:20 - 00:41:07:20
Justin
Sounds weird, but you know what I mean. Someone who's, like, spends a.

00:41:07:20 - 00:41:08:05
Justin
Lot of time.

00:41:08:05 - 00:41:10:01
Justin
Outside. You can kind of.

00:41:10:01 - 00:41:17:17
Justin
Tell, like they walk with like a little bit more fluidity in the knees, like they're loose with their ankles and their knees and hips, and you just kind of.

00:41:17:17 - 00:41:20:10
Justin
Like, gracefully stumble through.

00:41:20:12 - 00:41:22:22
Justin
Nature. And that's what I started doing.

00:41:22:26 - 00:41:24:17
Justin
And the Lord blessed me with big.

00:41:24:17 - 00:41:28:02
Justin
Feet at five nine. I have a size 11 shoe.

00:41:28:04 - 00:41:29:25
Justin
And so it was easier.

00:41:29:25 - 00:41:34:17
Justin
For me to just like, I mean, I used trekking poles all the time, but like.

00:41:34:20 - 00:41:37:05
Justin
I don't always have to have them, but I just kind of, like.

00:41:37:05 - 00:41:49:16
Justin
Gracefully stumble and, maybe not always so gracefully, but, I found that I could kind of just blend in and kind of just appear as though I'm like, just like anybody.

00:41:49:16 - 00:41:50:02
Justin
Else.

00:41:50:02 - 00:42:03:06
Kyle
The time at the School of Blind, like, was it kind of like, did they frame it in a way where it was that kind of black and white, where it's like, you need to accept that you're blind, that you can't do things like that, but you're like, you're like, no, I want to do things.

00:42:03:06 - 00:42:05:03
Kyle
So I guess I'm going to pretend I'm not blind.

00:42:05:06 - 00:42:05:16
Kyle
Or

00:42:05:16 - 00:42:08:13
Justin
just like, lying to you or not.

00:42:08:16 - 00:42:11:27
Justin
Lying might not be the right way to say that. But like.

00:42:11:29 - 00:42:12:17
Justin
Fooling.

00:42:12:17 - 00:42:44:18
Justin
Yourself, that you're way more capable than you might be. But then you find adaptations because you're always pushing it, pushing it to the limit. I had to like day one at the school for the blind. I was only there for a summer, like an orientation or a summer camp where they just like a crash course, you know, a condensed version of how to Be blind and, the, the guy that was running the program sat everyone down a whole this whole classroom full of people that were, all sorts of different ages, but new to vision loss.

00:42:44:18 - 00:42:48:17
Justin
And they, they framed the beginning.

00:42:48:19 - 00:42:56:21
Justin
Presentation with your blind. You're not going to be able to do whatever you want to do in life. Deal with it. That was like.

00:42:56:24 - 00:43:03:02
Justin
And I was just immediately like, I no way. I don't.

00:43:03:02 - 00:43:04:00
Justin
Accept this. Like, I.

00:43:04:00 - 00:43:05:16
Justin
Completely reject where.

00:43:05:16 - 00:43:07:10
Justin
You're coming from.

00:43:07:12 - 00:43:11:15
Justin
And that probably started it all.

00:43:11:18 - 00:43:16:16
Justin
Like that was where I was like, no, I'm going to do everything that you think is impossible and you're going to have a.

00:43:16:16 - 00:43:19:19
Justin
Terrible and miserable life, and I might die.

00:43:19:20 - 00:43:34:03
Justin
Doing the things that I want to do in life, but I'm going to do them like, I'm going to try. And so, yeah, I think I'm always trying to find the limit of what's possible with the vision I have left. And so,

00:43:34:03 - 00:43:39:26
Justin
you know, it, it looks like I'm pretty capable, but it's like, oftentimes I just.

00:43:39:26 - 00:43:40:17
Justin
Genuinely have.

00:43:40:17 - 00:43:45:04
Justin
No idea, like, what I'm doing or where I am or how I got there or.

00:43:45:06 - 00:43:48:10
Justin
Whatever. Like, I used to rely on the.

00:43:48:17 - 00:43:50:26
Justin
The people, the, wheelchair assist folks.

00:43:50:26 - 00:43:52:22
Justin
At the, airports.

00:43:52:22 - 00:43:56:10
Justin
And stuff where they like, you know, they'll escort you around.

00:43:56:12 - 00:44:00:27
Justin
And at some point I just got, like, so tired of waiting. And so I just, like, get off the.

00:44:00:27 - 00:44:02:01
Justin
Airplane and follow the.

00:44:02:01 - 00:44:04:25
Justin
Crowd, you know, follow the flow.

00:44:04:28 - 00:44:10:17
Justin
And then eventually, they'll, like, lead me to, like, a place where I can use deductive reasoning and kind of figure.

00:44:10:17 - 00:44:13:00
Justin
Out where I am. But I also feel like.

00:44:13:03 - 00:44:30:06
Justin
Because I do have peripheral vision left, even though I can't look around and see where I am because, you know, wherever I point my eyes, it disappears. But I'm able to like, orientate myself in space. So like, I'm always questing into the unknown. I don't know where I am, but then I'm like, I'll figure it out from here.

00:44:30:06 - 00:44:33:20
Justin
Like just proximity, kind of like figuring out what's immediately around

00:44:33:20 - 00:44:36:16
Kyle
me. Yeah.

00:44:36:18 - 00:44:42:02
Kyle
I would imagine that it gets exhausting after a while. Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:42:05 - 00:44:43:02
Kyle
You can say that.

00:44:43:04 - 00:44:57:04
Kyle
I'm sure there's moments where it's fun, I guess a little bit, like, explorative in a way. Yeah. But yeah, I after a while, especially when, I mean, airports are already so taxing and tiring to have to navigate it blind in the first place. Yeah.

00:44:57:09 - 00:44:58:22
Kyle
Yeah. It's like.

00:44:58:22 - 00:45:19:19
Justin
you know, it's a fun sense of adventure. I mean, I like adventure and and like oftentimes it's a, it's a lot of that. But also when you're just like tired and you're just like trying to get to where you want to go and like, fall into autopilot. It's like I can just, like, casually walk to where I want to go or go do the things I want to do or have my own agency and independence to some

00:45:19:19 - 00:45:50:00
Kyle
Degree. Yeah. So, so there's like, I'm, I'm going to conceptualize this. So there's this element of this, you know, doing the impossible almost as a defiance to your visual impairment in the first place. It's like a lack of acceptance of this portion of the identity that you have versus versus another way to look at it where, like, I accept my visual impairment, I'm going, I'm going to see what I can do with it anyway.

00:45:50:28 - 00:45:55:15
Kyle
Which version of that story do you feel like you embody the most?

00:45:55:17 - 00:46:00:06
Kyle
I'm still trying to accept. I like I wish I could tell.

00:46:00:06 - 00:46:03:01
Kyle
You that, like.

00:46:03:04 - 00:46:06:16
Kyle
I'm more comfortable with it now. It's been a lot.

00:46:06:18 - 00:46:11:28
Kyle
So a lot of it is just defiance. Yeah.

00:46:12:00 - 00:46:12:27
Kyle
I mean like yeah

00:46:12:27 - 00:46:14:17
Justin
to some degree, I'm.

00:46:14:17 - 00:46:28:08
Justin
I'm becoming way more comfortable with it, but I still fight it. So tooth and nail that I feel like it probably leans more into defiance than it does. Like, like that love vision counselor. Her name was Jed. I like, like.

00:46:28:11 - 00:46:29:00
Justin
Relying on.

00:46:29:00 - 00:46:29:29
Justin
What she said.

00:46:29:29 - 00:46:31:10
Justin
And and flowing.

00:46:31:10 - 00:46:36:05
Justin
With it. More like she described it as Taichi. I'm like, not there.

00:46:36:18 - 00:47:06:07
Kyle
Do you find power and agency in that emotion of like, okay, I'm just going to use defiance. Like the the lack of acceptance, like and to caveat that with the other side of the coin, like, what about accepting it scares you. Like, where's the resistance. Do you feel like you would lose motivation and agency in this like frame of acceptance.

00:47:07:25 - 00:47:10:02
Justin
Yeah. It's interesting because I had

00:47:10:22 - 00:47:12:24
Justin
I think that I've been able to find a lot.

00:47:12:24 - 00:47:14:17
Justin
Of agency and.

00:47:14:17 - 00:47:15:11
Justin
Still.

00:47:15:14 - 00:47:16:23
Justin
Fight that.

00:47:16:26 - 00:47:19:16
Justin
Like leaning more into.

00:47:19:16 - 00:47:20:10
Justin
The vision loss and.

00:47:20:10 - 00:47:33:02
Justin
Becoming more comfortable with it. I still find struggle with I wouldn't say like.

00:47:33:05 - 00:47:48:13
Justin
Not identifying with it, but rather just like the day to day functionality. That reminds me, of what it was like before I lost my sight like that. I think that's where, like, the biggest clash becomes. Because, like.

00:47:48:16 - 00:47:52:11
Justin
You know, I've been able to do a lot of amazing things.

00:47:52:13 - 00:47:53:22
Justin
Just because of.

00:47:53:24 - 00:47:56:13
Justin
Like, very, vividly.

00:47:56:13 - 00:47:59:01
Justin
Because of my vision loss. Like, I wouldn't be.

00:47:59:03 - 00:48:02:04
Justin
The climber I am. I wouldn't be.

00:48:02:04 - 00:48:06:08
Justin
The authority that I am within digital accessibility or like the, the.

00:48:07:03 - 00:48:10:15
Justin
Up and coming, like becoming a voice in the digital accessibility.

00:48:10:15 - 00:48:11:11
Justin
World.

00:48:11:13 - 00:48:19:04
Justin
And like, mastering, the understanding of how to advocate and how to interact with people with disabilities.

00:48:19:04 - 00:48:20:29
Justin
How to like there's so much that has.

00:48:20:29 - 00:48:25:25
Justin
Come with that life experience. But then I find myself, I'm.

00:48:25:25 - 00:48:30:29
Justin
Climbing and I'm like.

00:48:31:02 - 00:48:38:06
Justin
Like, I can pretty gracefully climb ten or like Carter.

00:48:38:09 - 00:48:46:10
Justin
And then we like, go and climb some, like pretty moderate five elevens. And it's just because of the style that they are. I'm just like.

00:48:46:13 - 00:48:54:22
Justin
I feel like a complete and, you know, new climber all of a sudden. And it doesn't have anything to do with the performance. Like, yeah, I'm competitive.

00:48:54:25 - 00:48:55:27
Justin
And it's.

00:48:55:27 - 00:48:57:14
Justin
Frustrating to me.

00:48:57:16 - 00:48:58:19
Justin
Because I have all.

00:48:58:19 - 00:49:04:14
Justin
This like skill and technique and power and strength and all these.

00:49:04:14 - 00:49:05:20
Justin
Things there.

00:49:05:22 - 00:49:07:11
Justin
But then it like, collides.

00:49:07:11 - 00:49:11:21
Justin
With, like the memory of, like, if I could just see this, then I could.

00:49:11:21 - 00:49:12:08
Justin
Just do.

00:49:12:08 - 00:49:22:26
Justin
It. If I could just get in the car and drive myself to wherever it is, I could just go, I don't I wouldn't have to wait for someone. I wouldn't have to, like, get an Uber. I wouldn't like.

00:49:23:05 - 00:49:26:18
Kyle
So you're constantly in battle with the version of yourself that you're no longer.

00:49:26:20 - 00:49:28:04
Kyle
Exactly. Yeah.

00:49:28:04 - 00:49:30:00
Justin
it's not so much maybe that I like hate.

00:49:30:00 - 00:49:37:13
Justin
The notion of like, being identified as someone who's blind or visually impaired, because that's the reality, and I don't have any.

00:49:37:13 - 00:49:40:11
Justin
Really problem with that.

00:49:40:13 - 00:49:47:09
Justin
I feel like I've probably come pretty comfortable with that.

00:49:47:11 - 00:49:50:13
Justin
It's that clash that really.

00:49:50:17 - 00:49:52:05
Kyle
is the hardest for me.

00:49:52:07 - 00:49:54:05
Kyle
And you're reminded of it so constantly.

00:49:54:08 - 00:49:54:21
Kyle
All the time,

00:49:54:21 - 00:49:57:12
Justin
especially because I'm like kind of in between.

00:49:59:26 - 00:50:19:22
Justin
Total blindness and like what people would say is just legally blind where like, you could take off your glasses and you wouldn't be able to see for crap, but then you put your glasses on your you can drive, you can see across a room, you can look at a route and see the whole line and you know, that's just pretty simple.

00:50:19:22 - 00:50:35:27
Justin
But because of where I'm nested in the world of vision loss, I have one foot in it and I'm one foot out of it. And, that like mental battle with myself meets right in the middle. And especially someone.

00:50:37:18 - 00:50:40:01
Justin
You know, in their early 30s.

00:50:40:03 - 00:50:41:21
Justin
I want to be, like, a lot.

00:50:41:21 - 00:50:43:08
Justin
More than.

00:50:43:11 - 00:50:51:13
Justin
Having to always ask for help with driving and getting transportation and navigating.

00:50:51:13 - 00:50:57:16
Justin
And obviously, you know, I'm, like, very capable. But there are certain situations where that does.

00:50:57:16 - 00:50:59:13
Justin
Come into play a lot,

00:50:59:13 - 00:51:01:10
Justin
especially with.

00:51:01:10 - 00:51:07:20
Justin
Like April, my soon to be wife like. When we're doing long.

00:51:07:20 - 00:51:16:13
Justin
Van trips, I can't help at all. She's driving all the time. I hate, I hate like I hate. Not only do I hate that for her and she's.

00:51:16:13 - 00:51:18:08
Justin
She understands like she's marrying.

00:51:18:08 - 00:51:18:16
Justin
Me.

00:51:18:16 - 00:51:24:10
Justin
She very well understands like the realities of living with someone with, blindness.

00:51:24:10 - 00:51:27:25
Justin
But I. I want to be

00:51:27:25 - 00:51:29:19
Kyle
more than that, for sure.

00:51:29:20 - 00:51:48:16
Kyle
And it's like, yeah, I get that point like a frustration. And if you were to let go of that frustration, then it's like, then what are you just sitting there just like, thanks. You know, like this is sick, you know, thanks for being my driver. And it's like, that's also not that great, too. It's like there's this point of frustration where you need to convey the fact that you want to be something that you can't be.

00:51:48:19 - 00:51:50:00
Kyle
Yeah. That's tough.

00:51:50:01 - 00:51:51:03
Kyle
Yeah. And that's funny

00:51:51:04 - 00:51:52:06
Justin
Because like.

00:51:52:08 - 00:51:55:26
Justin
The, contrary to that is that I've become so.

00:51:55:26 - 00:52:01:16
Justin
Humble, so grateful, for my family, for my friends.

00:52:01:18 - 00:52:02:07
Justin
For the people.

00:52:02:07 - 00:52:24:17
Justin
That like, really get it, like. So humbled more than I've ever known times 100. But it's still doesn't like, change the feelings like it's there's still the clash. Like even though like on one side.

00:52:24:17 - 00:52:25:04
Justin
I'm.

00:52:25:10 - 00:52:32:16
Justin
Thankful, humbled, honored that people would care enough about me and and stand in.

00:52:32:16 - 00:52:36:02
Justin
On areas in which I find that I might need some assistance in.

00:52:36:02 - 00:52:41:29
Justin
Certain areas or whatever the other.

00:52:41:29 - 00:52:43:00
Justin
Side of that is like.

00:52:43:00 - 00:52:44:11
Justin
Well, if I just.

00:52:44:11 - 00:52:47:24
Justin
Relinquish that and let it go.

00:52:47:27 - 00:52:51:13
Justin
Then it doesn't mean that that frustration.

00:52:51:13 - 00:52:53:02
Justin
Is not there. It's like.

00:52:53:04 - 00:52:55:12
Justin
I want to let it go, but I just for some reason.

00:52:55:12 - 00:52:57:16
Justin
It's within my own self. I.

00:52:57:18 - 00:52:58:09
Justin
I just.

00:52:58:09 - 00:52:59:07
Justin
Somehow haven't.

00:52:59:07 - 00:53:01:01
Justin
Been able to fully like, just.

00:53:01:01 - 00:53:02:27
Justin
Relinquish that grip.

00:53:03:02 - 00:53:11:09
Justin
Especially because I had so much I was excited about like already entrepreneurial minded, I already had my.

00:53:11:09 - 00:53:11:12
Justin
Own.

00:53:11:12 - 00:53:21:12
Justin
Company. My parents bought us a car like I knew what I wanted.

00:53:21:15 - 00:53:22:03
Justin
I had a.

00:53:22:03 - 00:53:26:08
Justin
Direction and you wipe the slate clean.

00:53:26:11 - 00:53:28:03
Justin
And then it's like starting.

00:53:28:03 - 00:53:30:05
Justin
Over all over again.

00:53:30:08 - 00:53:31:12
Justin
And there's a.

00:53:31:12 - 00:53:41:12
Justin
Part of starting over where it just you, you like, can really change the new reality.

00:53:41:12 - 00:53:43:02
Kyle
It's not a clean slate.

00:53:43:02 - 00:53:45:03
Justin
No. It's a it's like a modified.

00:53:45:10 - 00:53:48:22
Kyle
with a handicap. Yeah. Yeah.

00:53:50:06 - 00:54:02:03
Justin
So yeah, I don't know, I, I would like to say that I'm a lot more. I mean, I am a lot more mature in the sense that I'm more comfortable with it, but I still,

00:54:02:05 - 00:54:04:22
Justin
Struggle with it, which is.

00:54:04:24 - 00:54:05:28
Justin
I don't know, maybe it's like kind of.

00:54:05:28 - 00:54:11:00
Justin
Sad to some degree because it's been like over 17 years, but I.

00:54:11:00 - 00:54:12:12
Justin
Don't know, maybe it's just.

00:54:12:12 - 00:54:13:19
Justin
Because it's not.

00:54:13:19 - 00:54:18:02
Justin
Only coupled with that reality, but it's coupled with like

00:54:18:02 - 00:54:22:13
Justin
the abilities that I had. Like, I've always been the best at everything.

00:54:22:13 - 00:54:23:15
Justin
That I've done.

00:54:23:18 - 00:54:29:10
Justin
And I it's not the fact that I'm the best and I'm like, yeah, everybody like, now I'm better than you.

00:54:29:12 - 00:54:36:00
Justin
It's like when I ride a bike, when I play a video game, when I climb, I want to.

00:54:36:00 - 00:54:37:10
Justin
Be better than I was the day.

00:54:37:10 - 00:54:39:15
Justin
Before, all with everything.

00:54:39:15 - 00:54:58:19
Justin
That I did. And so because of that, I've always been inclined to be good at anything I put my hands to. And so it's been a blessing because I have that personality. And so I've been able to do a lot despite that vision loss. But it's also that reflection of like what could have been. And I'm always fighting that.

00:54:58:19 - 00:54:59:06
Justin
What could

00:54:59:06 - 00:55:00:06
Kyle
have been.

00:55:00:09 - 00:55:01:21
Kyle
How good could I have been.

00:55:01:21 - 00:55:02:06
Justin
How. Yeah.

00:55:02:06 - 00:55:02:22
Justin
Exactly

00:55:02:22 - 00:55:04:28
Kyle
where could I, what kind of climber could I be.

00:55:04:28 - 00:55:05:22
Justin
Yeah.

00:55:05:22 - 00:55:07:29
Kyle
Yeah. What kind of businesses could I run?

00:55:07:29 - 00:55:09:07
Justin


00:55:09:07 - 00:55:11:19
Kyle
Yeah. That's tough man.

00:55:11:26 - 00:55:17:03
Justin
Yeah. So I think I don't know probably will be that.

00:55:17:03 - 00:55:18:17
Justin
Way for a very very long time.

00:55:18:17 - 00:55:46:09
Kyle
Yeah, I could see that. Especially now it seems like, you know, your life is definitely, like, in the. I think a lot of us are in, like, this transitionary state. I think life is very transitionary in general, but, maybe, like, I don't know, maybe there's a certain point down the line where you'll, like, be like, I don't know, I fucking made it, you know, like, I'm like, so stoked with everything I've done.

00:55:46:09 - 00:55:49:12
Kyle
And like, everything was, was meant for for a reason.

00:55:49:12 - 00:55:49:29
Justin
one.

00:55:49:29 - 00:55:53:20
Justin
Yeah I think I mean you're on to something.

00:55:53:22 - 00:56:09:27
Justin
Everything happens. Not everything happens for a reason. But all things that do happen can be used to your advantage. Or rather everything that does happen to you shapes who you become. And it's up to you for that to be good or

00:56:09:27 - 00:56:10:16
Kyle
bad.

00:56:10:18 - 00:56:17:13
Kyle
Yeah. What's the. It's like we aren't our circumstances. It's how we react to our circumstances that define us similar.

00:56:17:13 - 00:56:18:22
Justin
So I mean, I do.

00:56:18:22 - 00:56:31:27
Justin
Realize that all the things that I've the direction that I've been put, the direction that I'm walking despite something happened to me and putting me on a new direction.

00:56:31:29 - 00:56:35:19
Justin
All that is for a.

00:56:35:19 - 00:56:36:14
Justin
Good outcome at

00:56:36:14 - 00:56:37:22
Kyle
this point.

00:56:37:24 - 00:56:45:21
Kyle
It's almost like your tenacity is like it's it's like fuzed with the frustration in a way.

00:56:45:29 - 00:56:48:02
Justin
Yeah. It's almost like the frustrations helpful to

00:56:48:02 - 00:56:48:21
Kyle
Yeah.

00:56:48:21 - 00:57:06:14
Kyle
It's like the frustration comes with this personality trait of being tenacious and like always striving to be better. It's like well yeah, of course I'm wanna be frustrated because this fucking handicap is pissing me off. You know? Like, I wish I could do something different, but I can't. And but yeah, it's cool that you still are moving forward and you're still like you are, you know, doing the best that you can.

00:57:06:14 - 00:57:23:01
Kyle
And even when you've been super successful up to this point, like, yeah, like got a great job kind of, you know, partner that you're going to commit your life to. Like, I think those are things that even people without any sort of handicap struggle with sometimes. So I commend you on that. Thank you.

00:57:23:15 - 00:57:26:10
Justin
Yeah. It's been a blessing.

00:57:26:12 - 00:57:31:18
Justin
It's been hard to integrate into like.

00:57:31:20 - 00:57:34:02
Justin
Being around a ton of people that.

00:57:34:02 - 00:57:48:13
Justin
Are also disabled to some degree because I love being in like the para climate community that I like. Absolutely love all those people. I just my whole world got.

00:57:48:13 - 00:57:53:14
Justin
Shrunk the first time I was able to be around everybody. And we all have.

00:57:53:16 - 00:57:53:28
Justin
Different.

00:57:53:28 - 00:57:57:01
Justin
Disabilities that we're dealing with, and it's cool to see their tenacity.

00:57:57:01 - 00:57:57:18
Justin
As well.

00:57:57:18 - 00:57:58:26
Justin
And it mirrors.

00:57:58:26 - 00:58:02:00
Justin
Mine, and we're all like a part of the.

00:58:02:00 - 00:58:04:03
Justin
Gimp Squad, so to say. And, and.

00:58:04:03 - 00:58:05:03
Justin
I just love.

00:58:05:03 - 00:58:12:05
Justin
All those people to death, but it like, invokes that same sort of like.

00:58:12:08 - 00:58:13:15
Justin
I mean, I'll just straight up say.

00:58:13:15 - 00:58:16:29
Justin
It invokes the hatred for myself in those.

00:58:16:29 - 00:58:18:05
Justin
Environments.

00:58:18:08 - 00:58:32:22
Justin
And so then it's like I'm staring at that version of myself again. And so it's like, I can, I can, I can be in that space, for a while, and then I have to retreat. And I have to like.

00:58:32:24 - 00:58:34:23
Justin
Because the whole time I'm around.

00:58:34:25 - 00:58:35:06
Justin
That.

00:58:35:06 - 00:58:39:21
Justin
Community,

00:58:39:24 - 00:58:45:08
Justin
It's just nothing but amazing. And I it's just like the richness of.

00:58:46:24 - 00:58:48:21
Justin
Hearing about other people's experiences.

00:58:48:22 - 00:58:49:11
Justin
I'm not even.

00:58:49:11 - 00:59:01:24
Justin
Hearing about other people's experiences. Just like all being together. Like, who cares that we're all disabled? But the thing that brings us together is the fact that we're all like, working through these different.

00:59:01:26 - 00:59:02:05
Justin
You know.

00:59:02:05 - 00:59:09:24
Justin
Situations in life. But then the whole time that I'm, you know, in that community, I have like that version of myself that kind of keeps.

00:59:09:24 - 00:59:10:29
Justin
Showing up.

00:59:11:02 - 00:59:11:16
Justin
And.

00:59:11:16 - 00:59:12:19
Kyle
What version?

00:59:13:06 - 00:59:14:05
Justin
Just like reminding.

00:59:14:05 - 00:59:15:25
Justin
Myself that, like.

00:59:17:12 - 00:59:21:09
Justin
I might be, a completely different version

00:59:21:22 - 00:59:35:21
Kyle
Oh, the the you you you keep getting reminded of the person you could have been by seeing people that are also disabled. Because you also see all the, like, the people that they could have been. Or is that a topic that everybody talks about?

00:59:35:21 - 00:59:37:00
Justin
Now, that's not something that.

00:59:37:00 - 00:59:42:14
Justin
Everybody talks about. And it's not something that I think everybody,

00:59:42:17 - 00:59:43:14
Justin
Sees as though.

00:59:43:14 - 00:59:50:20
Justin
It's something that they could have been. Also, I think maybe, maybe that everybody deals with that to some degree, individually.

00:59:50:22 - 00:59:51:26
Justin
But and it's not.

00:59:51:26 - 00:59:54:19
Justin
Even the fact that I'm around those people that makes me.

00:59:54:19 - 00:59:56:16
Justin
Feel or it's not them.

00:59:56:16 - 00:59:57:22
Justin
That makes me feel this.

00:59:57:22 - 00:59:58:20
Justin
Way.

00:59:58:23 - 01:00:13:21
Justin
It's just the reality that, like, I am, reminded because I'm in a, a para climbing space or I'm going to, I'm in a space that is, very, centric on

01:00:13:21 - 01:00:15:19
Kyle
the disability.

01:00:15:19 - 01:00:16:14
Justin
yeah, for

01:00:16:14 - 01:00:17:15
Kyle
sure.

01:00:18:02 - 01:00:24:27
Justin
And I, I hate that about myself. Like, I, I've always.

01:00:24:27 - 01:00:27:15
Justin
Been prone to, like, familial depression.

01:00:27:15 - 01:00:29:22
Justin
And,

01:00:29:24 - 01:00:31:15
Justin
Anxiety.

01:00:31:17 - 01:00:31:28
Justin
To.

01:00:31:28 - 01:00:36:15
Justin
A very extreme degree. And so when I'm around.

01:00:36:18 - 01:00:36:29
Justin
Large.

01:00:36:29 - 01:00:39:17
Justin
Groups of people in general, I like.

01:00:39:19 - 01:00:40:20
Justin
Shy away from.

01:00:40:20 - 01:00:55:04
Justin
It. I'm like, this is just a lot, but especially like, and competitions where everything is very specifically focused on, like disability.

01:00:55:06 - 01:00:55:24
Justin
You know, again.

01:00:55:24 - 01:00:57:07
Justin
It kind of comes with that blessing and a.

01:00:57:07 - 01:00:59:07
Justin
Curse. It's like.

01:00:59:10 - 01:01:05:08
Justin
Yeah, I'm here because I'm a disabled, but also I'm here because I'm disabled. And it's it's.

01:01:05:08 - 01:01:06:00
Justin
Incredible.

01:01:06:00 - 01:01:12:01
Justin
And again, like, don't get me wrong. Like that's one of the best parts about that community.

01:01:12:03 - 01:01:12:18
Justin
As we're all.

01:01:12:18 - 01:01:26:13
Justin
Like overcoming something or, you know, we can just unite and love each other for where we're at. And there's no, like, weirdness about like, oh, that's, disabled person. I should like me.

01:01:26:15 - 01:01:31:09
Justin
Be careful, you know, like, watch what I say or I gotta, like.

01:01:31:12 - 01:01:48:12
Justin
Treat them differently or whatever. It's like, dude, the the disability jokes are amazing. You know, the the camaraderie and, like, the community and the uplifting that you get from that is awesome. But just for whatever reason, with myself that I don't

01:01:48:23 - 01:02:13:02
Kyle
Just and struggling with that there's, it seems like there's a way, almost like this chameleon thing where when you're not surrounded by that group, you feel less disabled in a way. Is that true? When you're surrounded by people with sight and people aren't treating you as disabled? People are just kind of. We're just all hanging out friends, you know, stand up, paddle boarding, we're climbing.

01:02:13:02 - 01:02:24:19
Kyle
It's just kind of like it's a vibe. It's not about the disability. Do you find more comfort in peace and kind of like, I don't know, a sense of identity in those moments?

01:02:24:21 - 01:02:25:01
Kyle
Yeah.

01:02:25:01 - 01:02:33:27
Justin
Maybe that's. Yeah.

01:02:33:29 - 01:02:45:01
Justin
I think it's just intense for me. Yeah. Because it's not like.

01:02:45:03 - 01:03:00:26
Justin
I feel more disabled in those environments. Like when I go to the, there's a conference that happens in Anaheim. It's a massive, disability conference, and they have, like, all the newest tech and.

01:03:00:28 - 01:03:01:29
Justin
There's just blind people.

01:03:01:29 - 01:03:09:27
Justin
Everywhere, and it's so cool. Like, you just hear all the cans clicking around, and, and people are, like, yelling across.

01:03:09:27 - 01:03:14:01
Justin
The halls, like, you know, Jack, where are you? You know,

01:03:14:17 - 01:03:15:19
Justin
you hear the response.

01:03:15:19 - 01:03:16:09
Justin
From across the.

01:03:16:09 - 01:03:18:03
Justin
Room, you know, like, I'm over here,

01:03:18:27 - 01:03:19:15
Justin
you know,

01:03:19:15 - 01:03:20:01
Kyle
Yeah, I

01:03:20:01 - 01:03:20:21
Justin
love that.

01:03:20:21 - 01:03:21:05
Kyle
Yeah.

01:03:21:05 - 01:03:29:13
Justin
it's so fun. But also, like, maybe it's.

01:03:29:13 - 01:03:40:14
Justin
Just because it, like, doesn't magnify it that, like being in the spaces that you're describing where it's just like, oh, yeah, that's just in these blind. But like.

01:03:40:16 - 01:03:41:07
Justin
Whatever.

01:03:41:07 - 01:03:41:10
Kyle


01:03:41:12 - 01:03:43:29
Kyle
He's part of the group.

01:03:44:02 - 01:03:44:23
Kyle
It's, it's.

01:03:44:23 - 01:03:45:26
Justin
it's.

01:03:45:28 - 01:03:48:23
Justin
You know, it's not really like it's magnified to the same

01:03:48:28 - 01:04:18:03
Kyle
Yeah. On that note, like I think from the very beginning of this question, it's like the fact that people forget or, you know, forget that you're blind in these situations. And I'm talking about and especially all the ones we've done, like in those situations, would you like, do you appreciate more like awareness, to your like to your visual impairment, to the point where it's like someone's able to consciously like, you know, subtly help you out in a situation or communicate something like, do you find value in that?

01:04:18:03 - 01:04:26:06
Kyle
Or would you rather like the group just kind of like not draw attention to it in any way? Is there a balance?

01:04:27:03 - 01:04:29:10
Justin
Not yeah. I mean, I think it's.

01:04:29:13 - 01:04:32:07
Justin
Different for every, every situation.

01:04:32:13 - 01:04:34:28
Justin
Like you do. Really. Well, when we're out.

01:04:35:01 - 01:04:35:21
Justin
Hiking and.

01:04:35:21 - 01:04:37:18
Justin
When you're like, you know, you're you're.

01:04:37:18 - 01:04:55:27
Justin
Just describing, like, what's around us. And, if there's like a potential, hazardous drop off or something, you're just like, hey, so, you know, just so, you know, like, stay right behind me. There's like a death fall, you know, here. Like, it becomes more narrowed in those situations.

01:04:56:04 - 01:04:57:17
Justin
And I know, you know, that, like.

01:04:57:22 - 01:05:17:05
Justin
It happens frequently where there's, like a situation in which there's peril involved, and then it becomes more focus and you jump to, like, I know that my guy needs, like, some more focused assistance in this situation, but the fact that, like, there's it's not I'm just like any other person in the group.

01:05:17:18 - 01:05:18:13
Kyle
Yeah.

01:05:18:16 - 01:05:24:03
Kyle
Like I'll still throw cans at you. Yeah. Like here's a drink. Just did catch. Yeah.

01:05:24:03 - 01:05:25:03
Justin
it might hit.

01:05:25:03 - 01:05:37:11
Justin
Me, but, like, you know, I'm going to try, you know, it's like, I think I think it shouldn't be like some sort of.

01:05:37:14 - 01:05:39:17
Justin
Highlighted thing, so to say, you.

01:05:39:19 - 01:05:40:12
Justin
I mean, I've, I've.

01:05:40:12 - 01:05:43:08
Justin
Never talked about that kind of thing.

01:05:43:10 - 01:05:46:02
Justin
Before. I think a lot of the I hope.

01:05:46:02 - 01:05:51:26
Justin
That it doesn't come off this way, but I feel like in the climbing community of, like, seemed distant.

01:05:51:28 - 01:05:52:18
Justin
And I don't.

01:05:52:18 - 01:05:55:05
Justin
Like the fact that I've seemed distant, like it.

01:05:55:06 - 01:05:57:23
Justin
It bothers me that, like.

01:05:57:25 - 01:06:05:22
Justin
I probably come off as that I'm a loose of, and it's not that I'm, like, thinking I'm better than anybody else. It's not.

01:06:05:28 - 01:06:26:10
Kyle
I mean just because you have a disability doesn't mean you necessarily need to be a part of a certain community. I don't think just because you all have one thing in common doesn't mean you have everything in common, right? Like, I don't, I don't this is a terrible example because it's not the same thing at all. But I'm going to use it anyway just for almost humor at this point.

01:06:26:12 - 01:06:46:21
Kyle
But like, I lost my left testicle. I don't like go to social groups and like, talk to dudes that are missing nuts, you know, like, I definitely like that community. Kind of like, freaks me out a little bit. Like the the brush up I've had with that community has been something I don't wish to engage in. And so it's like like I said, not the same thing, but maybe there's something there.

01:06:46:22 - 01:06:56:04
Kyle
Maybe it's like, you know, you don't just because you are or have something, it doesn't mean you need to like vibe with everyone in that community.

01:06:56:04 - 01:06:58:23
Justin
Well it's funny because I do, I do.

01:06:58:23 - 01:07:01:04
Justin
Way better and work on individual.

01:07:02:07 - 01:07:06:09
Justin
Positions that I do like and like the gatherings.

01:07:06:09 - 01:07:07:27
Justin
Of like large groups.

01:07:07:27 - 01:07:08:17
Justin
Of people.

01:07:08:17 - 01:07:30:28
Kyle
It's hard, man. Large groups are tough. It's always very superficial. It's really hard to get anything deep or meaningful out of it, at least for me. I'm definitely much more of like an intimate 2 or 3 people. And usually like, even if it gets to like 5 or 6, I'll find like one person to like, have a conversation with, you know, and like, I'll end up probably talking to them about, like the whole night or like you didn't hang out with anybody.

01:07:30:28 - 01:07:49:07
Kyle
So I had good time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely been labeled. Sometimes people are like, I don't know, I think I just don't engage with people sometimes it takes me a long time to, like, get to know people. And maybe that's a bad personal skill because I don't do the work to like, find out. But yeah, I don't know.

01:07:49:07 - 01:07:52:09
Justin
you an extrovert? I don't you don't come off as though.

01:07:52:09 - 01:07:57:24
Justin
You're an extrovert. I think you're from a outside perspective. You seem like an extroverted introvert.

01:07:57:29 - 01:08:05:12
Kyle
I am a introvert with a skill of being extroverted when I need to be. Yeah, like, it's a skill. It's not. Not innate.

01:08:05:12 - 01:08:06:29
Justin
but it's draining for you

01:08:07:23 - 01:08:09:18
Kyle
With the wrong people. Yeah.

01:08:09:18 - 01:08:10:16
Justin
yeah, for sure.

01:08:10:16 - 01:08:11:07
Kyle
Yeah,

01:08:11:07 - 01:08:11:21
Justin
But you, you.

01:08:11:21 - 01:08:13:20
Justin
Don't recharge your batteries from people.

01:08:13:23 - 01:08:15:20
Kyle
No. Definitely not.

01:08:16:10 - 01:08:17:03
Justin
For sure. Yeah.

01:08:17:03 - 01:08:23:10
Justin
I'm, I'm exactly that way. I need to like, dip my feet in.

01:08:23:10 - 01:08:24:06
Justin
The water.

01:08:24:08 - 01:08:32:04
Justin
And then, like, pull back and like, really recharge my batteries. And then I can like, go back

01:08:32:04 - 01:08:32:23
Kyle
and.

01:08:32:26 - 01:08:54:29
Kyle
Yeah, I've always it's always just been like a few good friends or like one good friend at a time. And it's like that, that kind of cycles through or I've never been one to have like a very huge social network. I mean, Instagram has been exhausting with the amount of people that I like communicate with on a daily basis.

01:08:55:01 - 01:09:03:03
Kyle
But it's been cool. It's been cool to like, meet people in that way. But that's perfect. It's like very it's like an arm's reach, right?

01:09:03:06 - 01:09:03:14
Kyle
Yeah.

01:09:03:14 - 01:09:05:15
Justin
honestly I think that suits

01:09:05:18 - 01:09:15:16
Justin
Like more or less how I enjoy climbing. Because because I'm introverted and I like the subtleties of life and.

01:09:16:21 - 01:09:20:16
Justin
Like getting ingrained into the details.

01:09:20:19 - 01:09:21:08
Justin
And going.

01:09:21:08 - 01:09:23:06
Justin
Out climbing with a very small.

01:09:23:06 - 01:09:24:04
Justin
Crew.

01:09:24:07 - 01:09:35:23
Justin
Is like, my favorite thing ever. It's like how I get my batteries recharged by going out in nature and interacting with rock. And yeah, I have like a couple of people around me, but.

01:09:35:26 - 01:09:37:00
Justin
It's not like.

01:09:37:03 - 01:09:40:10
Justin
Like we're there to accomplish something. We're there to climb. We're there to try hard.

01:09:40:10 - 01:09:41:23
Justin
We're there to like, break down the.

01:09:41:23 - 01:09:53:15
Justin
Intricacies of it all. And just being out there in nature with like 1 or 2, I mean, obviously I climb in big groups and I mind that that at all. But really, like, I do my best when was like a.

01:09:53:15 - 01:09:54:20
Justin
Small crew that are.

01:09:54:20 - 01:09:56:25
Justin
Dedicated to our craft and what we're doing.

01:09:56:25 - 01:10:19:04
Kyle
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01:10:54:24 - 01:11:16:00
Kyle
Yeah, yeah. Let's talk about climbing. Yeah. What, you know, just again, with this kind of, like, painting the picture of your, your visual impairment, like, what is the experience of climbing, like, for you? Like, how do you approach it? What is it like on the wall? Like, how do you break down routes? Like what is your approach to the sport?

01:11:16:00 - 01:11:16:07
Justin
Yeah.

01:11:16:07 - 01:11:28:27
Justin
It's funny time to talk about it because I just had this like massive, expression of this whole, the whole thing at Crag up at Mount Charleston where I was.

01:11:28:27 - 01:11:34:27
Justin
Climbing and I had an idea that I would like that route.

01:11:35:05 - 01:11:37:09
Justin
Based on what my friend was telling.

01:11:37:09 - 01:11:37:21
Justin
Me.

01:11:37:21 - 01:11:41:18
Justin
And, a little bit of the research that I had done.

01:11:41:20 - 01:11:44:24
Justin
But, you know, it's so hard to, like, get an idea of.

01:11:44:26 - 01:11:47:15
Justin
If you're going to enjoy something from a video.

01:11:47:17 - 01:11:51:17
Justin
And I'm like, zooming in really far on the video, trying to.

01:11:51:17 - 01:12:00:20
Justin
Like, see what the hand positions are like and see what the routes going to be like. The videos are so flat it doesn't like give you an idea of like how overhung it.

01:12:00:20 - 01:12:06:12
Justin
Is or the the angles that you're climbing in or what the.

01:12:06:12 - 01:12:10:23
Justin
Positions are like, like, yeah, you can learn a lot about like.

01:12:10:25 - 01:12:24:10
Justin
How the movement is going to work, but it wasn't until I got on the route and I started like doing the moves and like feeling all the different holds and being in the positions and.

01:12:24:10 - 01:12:38:00
Justin
Finding the clipping positions and all these things. I got to the anchor after my discovery burn where I'm like, you know, slowly memorizing it and putting the pieces of the puzzle together that I, I.

01:12:38:00 - 01:12:39:06
Justin
Was lowering and I was like,

01:12:39:06 - 01:12:41:23
Kyle
I actually like this route.

01:12:41:23 - 01:12:43:16
Justin
you know?

01:12:43:18 - 01:12:45:13
Justin
So, yeah, for me.

01:12:45:15 - 01:12:51:02
Justin
I can like, I like big shapes, things that are, like.

01:12:51:02 - 01:12:53:05
Justin
Esthetically pleasing, but I.

01:12:53:06 - 01:12:54:19
Justin
Can't really.

01:12:54:21 - 01:12:59:24
Justin
Look at something based on the line unless it's, like, hyper obvious.

01:13:01:17 - 01:13:11:19
Justin
It really comes down to, like, geometry, geometric shapes or, or really pleasing. And those types of things just make me want to interact with them and climb them.

01:13:11:23 - 01:13:13:19
Justin
But it really is.

01:13:13:21 - 01:13:15:26
Justin
Mostly the movement that did it for.

01:13:15:26 - 01:13:18:03
Justin
Me.

01:13:18:05 - 01:13:25:09
Justin
Especially getting into climbing and going to a gym that was like pretty like.

01:13:25:11 - 01:13:29:24
Justin
I don't know, pretty sketchy. Kind of like the gym was very small.

01:13:29:24 - 01:13:41:15
Justin
It was like an old diving school. And it had like, basically it looked like someone's home with their. And, you really had to, like, climbing to go there because it was not pretty and like, pretty sketchy.

01:13:41:17 - 01:13:45:00
Justin
And, we, you know, wood.

01:13:45:00 - 01:13:57:21
Justin
Boulder on things that were no more than, like, ten feet tall because that was just how tall it had to be at that gym. And so I fell in love with the movement because not only was it not beautiful at the gym, but it was,

01:13:57:23 - 01:14:00:15
Justin
On on unrelated, my enjoyment of.

01:14:00:15 - 01:14:07:02
Justin
It was unrelated to what I was looking at. And so I really fell in love with how it how it felt to be in this positions and.

01:14:07:04 - 01:14:07:15
Justin
Feel.

01:14:07:15 - 01:14:13:05
Justin
Strong, you know, because I was always really inclined to, strength based activities,

01:14:13:05 - 01:14:15:16
Kyle
Were you, like, pretty fit for you? Started climbing.

01:14:15:16 - 01:14:16:04
Justin
yeah.

01:14:16:07 - 01:14:36:26
Justin
So I was riding BMX and then my younger brother Josiah, we would do all these, like, intense powerlifting things. We got really obsessed with this gym in Salt Lake called Jim Jones, where they would train like the all the Spartans in the 300 movie. They would train alpinist and people that were doing these big pushes and, expeditions and things.

01:14:36:29 - 01:14:41:02
Justin
And we would emulate we would find out their workout plans and we would do them. And it was just.

01:14:41:05 - 01:14:41:23
Justin
Heinous.

01:14:41:23 - 01:14:52:14
Justin
Stuff, just brutal workouts. And suffering was very much a part of that. It was like, how how miserable can we make this on top of the fact that we're all lifting weights?

01:14:52:17 - 01:14:53:20
Justin
So we did.

01:14:53:20 - 01:15:02:03
Justin
All that stuff. And when I started climbing, we had already been doing outdoorsy stuff like backpacking and whatever, and that was great. But I was like.

01:15:02:03 - 01:15:05:06
Justin
Well, you know, I remember Mike, my friend worked at.

01:15:05:06 - 01:15:09:02
Justin
The climbing gym, so we'll go and we'll try climbing.

01:15:09:04 - 01:15:10:07
Justin
And,

01:15:10:09 - 01:15:27:16
Justin
And very quickly I was it was obvious, like the movement was just impeccable. It was it was so fun. And it was something that was like in that detail, you know, it was a lot more interesting. And so, I very quickly fell in love with the movement of climbing. And so it kind of relates.

01:15:27:16 - 01:15:33:25
Justin
Very, or it's very much how I climb outside.

01:15:33:28 - 01:15:37:27
Justin
Like something could be really beautiful. But if it doesn't.

01:15:37:27 - 01:15:38:14
Justin
Like.

01:15:38:16 - 01:15:40:09
Justin
If the movement is not that enjoyable.

01:15:40:09 - 01:15:41:12
Justin
To me, it's like, yeah.

01:15:41:12 - 01:15:47:14
Kyle
Yeah, but your, your process for actually climbing is like you have to memorize

01:15:47:14 - 01:15:47:24
Justin
Yeah.

01:15:47:24 - 01:15:59:25
Kyle
the holds and where they are from the ground up essentially. And you're building this mental map and you piece it all together, you memorize it and then you execute these movements neurologically

01:15:59:25 - 01:16:00:26
Justin


01:16:01:07 - 01:16:17:02
Kyle
and accurately on the way up. And you're leaning on your physical fitness to be able to hold yourselves in these positions, to give yourself more time to find the next hold, or to make mistakes, or to make mistakes and body positions in order to get the what is that correct.

01:16:17:21 - 01:16:17:29
Justin
Yeah.

01:16:17:29 - 01:16:18:12
Justin
Exactly

01:16:18:16 - 01:16:24:13
Kyle
And how like how important is like having a site guide for your climbing.

01:16:24:13 - 01:16:25:12
Justin
Yeah.

01:16:25:14 - 01:16:29:09
Justin
Yeah. I mean the site guides.

01:16:29:12 - 01:16:34:02
Justin
Pretty dang important I would say. Yeah. Like yeah I mean I guess I sound.

01:16:34:02 - 01:16:39:15
Justin
Hesitant when I say that because in some areas I don't always need a site guide.

01:16:39:18 - 01:16:40:09
Justin
Let's say.

01:16:40:09 - 01:16:42:16
Justin
Like.

01:16:42:19 - 01:16:53:07
Justin
Like sometimes I'll hike a ladder out with me, you know, and I'm like feeling around for all the different holds and and so on. And I'm like.

01:16:53:09 - 01:16:57:03
Justin
It's not like I'm just like finding the chalky stuff. It's like my hands are sweeping.

01:16:57:03 - 01:16:58:08
Justin
Over the whole boulder.

01:16:58:08 - 01:17:05:12
Justin
Surface, like the whole face of it, because I want I don't want to miss something I've learned from experience that I will miss things, you know?

01:17:05:12 - 01:17:05:25
Kyle
Yeah.

01:17:05:25 - 01:17:16:16
Justin
And so in order to not miss things, I try, I like, feel everything, and my fingers run over every surface of the rock, making sure that I don't miss something because like at the climbing gym, for example.

01:17:16:23 - 01:17:17:17
Justin
I'm like.

01:17:17:17 - 01:17:27:03
Justin
Not using a hole that is on that makes the climb v5 and I'm like doing this like really messed up VA method and someone's like, why are you using that? And I'm like,

01:17:27:03 - 01:17:27:29
Kyle
Dino's there.

01:17:27:29 - 01:17:28:27
Justin
didn't know. Yeah, exactly.

01:17:28:27 - 01:17:32:05
Kyle
So the site guide isn't necessary, but it makes the process way faster.

01:17:32:05 - 01:17:32:19
Justin
much.

01:17:32:19 - 01:17:36:20
Justin
Faster and like, more. Yeah, just faster, a

01:17:36:20 - 01:17:37:13
Kyle
efficient.

01:17:37:15 - 01:17:38:08
Justin
Efficient.

01:17:38:10 - 01:17:38:26
Kyle
Yeah,

01:17:38:26 - 01:17:39:29
Justin
yeah. For sure.

01:17:40:02 - 01:17:46:10
Kyle
And your progress seemed pretty quick. I read that you got your first for 11 within the first three years.

01:17:46:10 - 01:17:46:24
Justin


01:17:46:24 - 01:17:48:07
Kyle
It's pretty. It's pretty fast.

01:17:48:11 - 01:17:53:17
Justin
Yeah I think it comes with that, that strength that I had developed prior to climbing.

01:17:53:17 - 01:17:54:02
Kyle
Yeah,

01:17:54:02 - 01:17:55:20
Justin
I just really like being strong.

01:17:55:20 - 01:17:56:14
Kyle
It

01:17:56:14 - 01:17:57:10
Justin
just feels good.

01:17:57:10 - 01:17:59:04
Justin
I'm sure you know you can relate.

01:17:59:05 - 01:18:01:18
Justin
You like to do weightlifting.

01:18:01:18 - 01:18:02:25
Justin
And.

01:18:02:27 - 01:18:07:10
Justin
Big you know big pushes ground up and doing things in a day and stuff like, it just.

01:18:07:10 - 01:18:08:09
Justin
Feels awesome.

01:18:08:15 - 01:18:09:29
Kyle
It does.

01:18:10:01 - 01:18:10:26
Kyle
Does turns

01:18:10:26 - 01:18:36:09
Justin
out that it's, like, really advantageous when you're dealing with a vision loss because you need to stay in those positions for a long time, like what you're saying, and you need to be able to have enough in the tank to, like, lock off every single move and feel around. You know, I'm learning to, like, taper that, as the vanguard of my climbing ability can just be, like, brute strength and dosing my way through everything.

01:18:36:12 - 01:18:42:26
Justin
It's like, you know, you pigeonhole yourself into not actually excelling as a climber.

01:18:43:07 - 01:18:51:02
Kyle
Well, I think it also lends to a very specific style. Yeah, which is fine. I would be leaning. I would be leaning into it as well.

01:18:51:02 - 01:18:51:25
Justin
And you.

01:18:51:27 - 01:19:04:07
Justin
You know, you definitely want to lean into the things that you enjoy, obviously, because like, you're not just going to do this dude. Like we, you know, I call it eating your vegetables. All the things that you're bad at, you know.

01:19:04:09 - 01:19:04:27
Justin
You don't just.

01:19:04:27 - 01:19:06:25
Justin
Want to do that all the time.

01:19:06:27 - 01:19:08:11
Justin
You know, otherwise, you take it. What you do.

01:19:08:13 - 01:19:11:17
Kyle
Yeah. I don't like overhang climbing. I don't do it very much.

01:19:11:19 - 01:19:12:12
Kyle
You do it sometimes.

01:19:12:12 - 01:19:12:27
Kyle
Sometimes.

01:19:12:27 - 01:19:13:11
Kyle
Yeah.

01:19:13:11 - 01:19:18:02
Justin
it's like eating your vegetables. I know this is going to make me better, but you don't want to always do that.

01:19:18:02 - 01:19:22:03
Justin
I tell people that I like doing working on the things that I'm bad at.

01:19:23:14 - 01:19:24:17
Justin
When I'm in a good mood

01:19:25:12 - 01:19:25:20
Kyle
And then

01:19:25:20 - 01:19:28:25
Justin
when I'm not in the best mood, I only want to do the things that I'm good.

01:19:29:00 - 01:19:29:19
Kyle
That smart.

01:19:29:19 - 01:19:31:01
Justin
but I'm generally in a good.

01:19:31:01 - 01:19:39:22
Justin
Mood. So, like, I'm, I'm like, pretty down to tried, like, you know, you and I will go climb some, like, really thin,

01:19:39:22 - 01:19:40:15
Kyle
Very.

01:19:40:16 - 01:19:41:06
Kyle
Yeah.

01:19:41:06 - 01:19:41:11
Justin
vert.

01:19:41:11 - 01:19:44:20
Justin
Yeah. And, just be my ass.

01:19:44:23 - 01:19:46:02
Justin
You know, it's so hard,

01:19:46:02 - 01:19:47:03
Justin
Like

01:19:47:05 - 01:19:48:29
Justin
Yesterday when we were climbing.

01:19:48:29 - 01:19:50:20
Justin
I

01:19:50:22 - 01:19:51:19
Justin
Got over a.

01:19:51:19 - 01:19:56:26
Justin
Bulge and I was like, I don't know where my.

01:19:56:26 - 01:19:58:16
Justin
Bolts are. And April's.

01:19:58:16 - 01:20:18:27
Justin
Like, I can't see them from down here, you know. And I'm like, cool. I don't know where this is going to be, but I'll just keep going up, I guess. And the more I'm going, the more I'm like, I hope it shows up, you know? And I'm like, kind of, I'll stop and I like, move my hands around and I'll like, I hit the ball and I'm like.

01:20:18:29 - 01:20:29:15
Justin
Yeah, you know, like, this is awesome. And those are those moments actually are pretty fun. You know, where it's just like a surprise, like, oh, I'm like pretty right now. I'm, I, I accidentally found the bullet. So I'm going to clip.

01:20:29:15 - 01:20:30:11
Justin
This end of it like,

01:20:30:11 - 01:20:32:21
Kyle
Yeah.

01:20:32:21 - 01:20:32:26
Kyle
But

01:20:32:26 - 01:20:39:04
Justin
But yeah, I definitely do way, way better on like steep step steep stuff. Basically if it's like.

01:20:39:04 - 01:20:42:01
Justin
30 degrees or 90 degrees, I.

01:20:42:01 - 01:20:52:13
Justin
Do very well. When it becomes like Teche vert. Yeah. It's like, shockingly how precipitously my performance drops

01:20:54:20 - 01:20:57:02
Kyle
Yeah. It's cool. You still go out and do it sometimes,

01:20:57:09 - 01:21:01:08
Justin
I do it a lot. Most of my friends like Tiki Bar around

01:21:01:08 - 01:21:03:07
Kyle
Yeah,

01:21:03:07 - 01:21:04:20
Justin
But it's good, you

01:21:04:20 - 01:21:23:01
Kyle
you, it seems like. So you've, like, you memorize a route, you then ultimately, like a lot of us get to, like, look at the route from the ground. And we, like, practice and around these moves and we kind of like, visualize that in a way. It seems like the visualization part of that experience for you is pretty paramount.

01:21:23:03 - 01:21:35:16
Kyle
And I think that, you know, you brought this up before is the I think the key example of this is Adam Anders film with silence. He's like, on the back, on his back, on the ground is like screaming, like doing toe to finger matches and stuff.

01:21:35:16 - 01:21:35:23
Justin
Yeah.

01:21:35:23 - 01:21:38:19
Justin
And is like, his handler.

01:21:38:19 - 01:21:45:06
Justin
Or his, physio. His coach was like, pushing his.

01:21:45:08 - 01:21:46:09
Justin
Limbs into the

01:21:46:09 - 01:22:01:08
Kyle
yeah. Like how I think for, like, I guess explain how important and like how you utilize visualization and then like, expand that to like how maybe we all, as climbers who have sight could maybe use visualization more

01:22:01:25 - 01:22:02:27
Justin
For sure. Yeah.

01:22:02:27 - 01:22:10:17
Justin
It's cool. Yeah. I was actually I taught a series of clinics throughout the US called the Art of visualization through Blindness.

01:22:10:20 - 01:22:12:21
Justin
And we were.

01:22:12:21 - 01:22:22:11
Justin
Unpacking that exact concept, like even though you don't have vision, what does the visualization process like. And so and there's.

01:22:22:11 - 01:22:25:06
Justin
Involved with.

01:22:25:09 - 01:22:25:29
Justin
Taking.

01:22:25:29 - 01:22:27:08
Justin
And hearing.

01:22:27:08 - 01:22:43:00
Justin
Information that people tell you. And then also if we have the luxury of someone like moving our hands into positions and like tapping on the feet and describing something very well from the ground is probably the best.

01:22:43:03 - 01:22:47:21
Justin
Like prep to hop on a route, like.

01:22:47:23 - 01:22:51:01
Justin
This project that I was working on in Charleston.

01:22:51:04 - 01:22:54:09
Justin
My climbing partner was like, giving me as.

01:22:54:09 - 01:23:12:27
Justin
Much information as he could for the first ball, and then I would climb to the first ball and clip in, and then he'd tell me the information between the first and the second, and I would do that. And maybe it was a little off and I would whip and I would be like, okay, well, I don't think it was like that.

01:23:13:00 - 01:23:13:27
Justin
But

01:23:14:00 - 01:23:15:19
Justin
Maybe it was.

01:23:15:22 - 01:23:16:21
Justin
You know, it was work.

01:23:16:21 - 01:23:17:20
Justin
On it a little bit differently.

01:23:17:20 - 01:23:22:26
Justin
And we did that all the way up. And I remember him, he nailed.

01:23:22:29 - 01:23:26:15
Justin
Penultimate ball to the anchor.

01:23:26:18 - 01:23:28:20
Justin
And he he walked me through it.

01:23:28:20 - 01:23:31:07
Justin
So well before I had even tried it.

01:23:31:07 - 01:23:32:21
Justin
That when I pulled.

01:23:32:23 - 01:23:35:02
Justin
Like, I was in a knee bar, and I.

01:23:35:02 - 01:23:35:27
Justin
Pull it out of the.

01:23:35:27 - 01:23:43:10
Justin
Knee bar and pulled onto the wall and did it just like he said. And I was like, that was sick.

01:23:43:12 - 01:23:45:08
Justin
And it was because I was retaining.

01:23:45:08 - 01:23:52:01
Justin
All of that information as he was saying. And I'm like building in my mind what he's describing.

01:23:52:05 - 01:23:53:28
Justin
But it's related to movement.

01:23:53:28 - 01:24:07:19
Justin
It's not just based on what I'm looking at and knowing that my body should be, holding onto that hand, holding this hand, holding my foot will be there, and so on. Based on my experience with vision loss, it's all connected to how I.

01:24:07:19 - 01:24:08:26
Justin
Feel.

01:24:08:28 - 01:24:26:13
Justin
On the wall. So those feelings of what he's saying or what he's saying is so intrinsically connected to that feeling of movement that I'm able to, visualize that movement pattern rather than just looking at it and then imagining myself in that position, if that makes sense.

01:24:26:21 - 01:24:35:05
Kyle
I guess. I think what you're trying to do, or what you're describing is like building a sense of familiarity so that when you're there, you're like, I've been here before.

01:24:35:08 - 01:24:35:25
Kyle
Yeah,

01:24:35:25 - 01:24:36:22
Justin
exactly.

01:24:36:24 - 01:24:38:27
Justin
But I know, like, excellent climbers.

01:24:38:27 - 01:24:41:26
Justin
Do this any way, but I think it's based more on what they're.

01:24:41:26 - 01:24:48:14
Justin
Looking at. Maybe. Anyway.

01:24:48:16 - 01:24:50:01
Justin
Lowered back down.

01:24:50:03 - 01:24:52:12
Justin
And I could walk you through the whole route.

01:24:52:12 - 01:24:53:24
Justin
Right now after climbing.

01:24:53:24 - 01:24:55:28
Justin
In, And I've only.

01:24:56:00 - 01:24:56:22
Justin
Put one day.

01:24:56:22 - 01:25:00:06
Justin
And on that thing. And so the.

01:25:00:06 - 01:25:07:16
Justin
Tactic in these clinics that I was teaching is all that wrapped into, like, you know, a couple hours in a.

01:25:07:16 - 01:25:08:23
Justin
Gym or like.

01:25:08:27 - 01:25:12:02
Justin
At the International Climbers Festival, we were lucky enough to do it in lander.

01:25:12:02 - 01:25:16:15
Justin
But the idea is retain as much.

01:25:16:15 - 01:25:37:03
Justin
Information as you can from the person that's giving you the beta from the ground. Now, with the clinic, we use a blindfold. So the person was blindfolded and they got to take turns picking different routes, and so someone would stand in as the side guide and someone would be the blindfolded climber. And so they would describe the route and as much detail as they could.

01:25:37:03 - 01:25:56:22
Justin
And, and then when the person would get on the wall, they would try it. And the person would then start guiding them through this. And the whole idea was that you are building that imagery in your mind of what that person's saying, and then putting yourself into that, that position in your mind and creating that sense of familiarity that you're describing.

01:25:56:25 - 01:26:03:27
Justin
And so you're building this like mental roadmap of, what's to come, even though you've never climbed it

01:26:04:04 - 01:26:09:01
Kyle
I feel like that would hinge heavily on the skill of the person trying to describe the route for you.

01:26:09:01 - 01:26:09:29
Justin
it also hinges.

01:26:09:29 - 01:26:11:16
Justin
On the skill set of the climber as.

01:26:11:16 - 01:26:16:01
Justin
Well though I would say because like, for example.

01:26:16:03 - 01:26:35:29
Justin
The climb, the guy, my climbing partner in competition, Matt Frederick, he climbs, the same V grade sport grades that I do, and he is the sharpest outside guide I've ever had. And then, like April, for example.

01:26:37:17 - 01:26:38:27
Justin
Is not climbing at that.

01:26:38:27 - 01:26:41:16
Justin
Level, but she just gives me all the.

01:26:41:16 - 01:26:44:10
Justin
Information and then I.

01:26:44:10 - 01:26:45:03
Justin
Know what to.

01:26:45:03 - 01:26:46:01
Justin
Pick based.

01:26:46:01 - 01:26:46:21
Justin
On.

01:26:46:21 - 01:26:48:09
Justin
The position that I find myself.

01:26:48:09 - 01:26:53:21
Justin
In. So, yeah, it's a little bit of both. Like, I like, you can get.

01:26:53:22 - 01:26:58:13
Justin
Away with a lot as a newer side guide if you're just like giving all of the information.

01:26:58:15 - 01:27:12:15
Justin
But it has to be, it can't just be random. You have to like. Give people hand coordinates and then give people foot coordinates and then not.

01:27:12:15 - 01:27:14:24
Justin
Confuse them by talking about things that.

01:27:14:24 - 01:27:17:01
Justin
Are not,

01:27:17:03 - 01:27:20:29
Justin
Relevant to the position that the athlete is in.

01:27:21:02 - 01:27:25:16
Justin
Or if it's on the ground. You have to kind of layer it.

01:27:25:19 - 01:27:26:09
Justin
I found.

01:27:26:14 - 01:27:27:05
Justin
Layering.

01:27:27:13 - 01:27:30:16
Justin
That information is really helpful. So you can talk about.

01:27:30:19 - 01:27:33:13
Justin
The whole thing, like just talk about the whole.

01:27:33:13 - 01:27:36:04
Justin
Thing and then start getting into more like.

01:27:36:04 - 01:27:36:27
Justin
Nuanced.

01:27:37:09 - 01:27:39:02
Kyle
So you got like a macro and a micro

01:27:39:02 - 01:27:40:04
Justin
Yeah.

01:27:40:06 - 01:27:41:22
Justin
Yeah. Exactly.

01:27:41:25 - 01:27:44:02
Justin
And so the clinics,

01:27:44:05 - 01:27:54:18
Justin
Kind of went into that whole process and then we went into how this is applicable in day to day life and how you could use this, this, visualization technique and.

01:27:54:18 - 01:27:55:02
Justin
Work.

01:27:55:10 - 01:28:00:28
Justin
How you can use it in your day to day life or, planning your week in your monetary.

01:28:00:28 - 01:28:01:25
Justin
Year and so

01:28:01:25 - 01:28:02:12
Kyle
on.

01:28:02:14 - 01:28:04:11
Kyle
What are some examples of, of that?

01:28:04:29 - 01:28:11:08
Justin
So, let's say for work, your, the idea.

01:28:11:08 - 01:28:12:17
Justin
Was that your.

01:28:12:17 - 01:28:13:08
Justin
Your, let's.

01:28:13:08 - 01:28:14:25
Justin
Say you're writing a bunch of documentation.

01:28:14:25 - 01:28:16:07
Justin
For a.

01:28:16:10 - 01:28:21:22
Justin
Presentation that you have to give, and you might be really nervous about what's to come.

01:28:21:24 - 01:28:22:19
Justin
You don't know.

01:28:22:19 - 01:28:31:01
Justin
What to expect as far as, like, how you're going to handle certain questions, how you're going to, present certain information.

01:28:31:01 - 01:28:31:19
Justin
For.

01:28:31:19 - 01:28:32:16
Justin
An audience that you.

01:28:32:16 - 01:28:34:19
Justin
Don't know. So you're just you.

01:28:34:19 - 01:28:56:18
Justin
Just prepare, you just, like, imagine that you're you're about to come, up to a project. Someone's giving you a bunch of information, rather, instead of someone giving you a bunch of information, about a route on a wall, you're giving yourself that information on a particular, presentation that you're going to give, and you're giving yourself all the different options.

01:28:56:20 - 01:29:20:28
Justin
But there is also the best path. But because you're given yourself so many options and you're visualizing yourself presenting this information, you're visualizing all the different outcomes, and what the different questions might be. You're kind of like setting yourself up for success by creating that sense of familiarity in the moment. And so.

01:29:21:00 - 01:29:22:28
Justin
I think, some.

01:29:22:28 - 01:29:24:11
Justin
People found that there.

01:29:24:11 - 01:29:25:29
Justin
Was I mean, I think.

01:29:25:29 - 01:29:28:13
Justin
Everyone's got like a use case.

01:29:28:16 - 01:29:29:12
Justin
That were,

01:29:29:19 - 01:29:34:23
Justin
Experiencing that those clinics because everyone's, you know, got the.

01:29:34:23 - 01:29:36:09
Justin
The,

01:29:36:12 - 01:29:42:29
Justin
Presentation thing, I guess was just like one example. But, you know, of course, everybody's got different things that they're working with on the day to day

01:29:42:29 - 01:29:43:05
Kyle
for.

01:29:43:05 - 01:30:02:25
Kyle
Sure. I really like the idea of the familiarity. I find that a lot with like, I think it's attachment to fear as well. I think that like, fear is a lot of fear is surrounded by the unknown. Like, especially in climbing, you know, you this like when you're on setting a route, you don't know what's coming. Especially you haven't done a lot of the beta.

01:30:02:25 - 01:30:04:19
Kyle
And so there's this fear that can build up.

01:30:04:19 - 01:30:18:07
Kyle
But if you have beta, you have a bunch of information or, and you've even you, you've, you've used that information to build a sense of familiarity through visualization of this route,

01:30:18:07 - 01:30:25:05
Kyle
when you're there for the first time, you don't actually feel like you've you feel like you've been there before.

01:30:25:08 - 01:30:43:29
Kyle
And I think there's there's huge power in that. And I think just like your example with the presentation, I think that in our lives we can do that all the time, like, I don't I can't tell you how many times I like, we'll just like sit in the shower and like, I don't know, visualize my future, like the day or like even weeks in advance.

01:30:43:29 - 01:30:51:10
Kyle
Months in advance. Like what happens if this happens? What? What could happen if this happens? Like. And you're like painting this picture of like what could happen.

01:30:51:10 - 01:30:51:17
Kyle
And

01:30:51:17 - 01:31:05:16
Kyle
or you're expecting some sort of, conversation to happen with somebody and you're visualizing what that could be like so that when you're actually sitting down and doing it, it's you don't have that, like visceral feeling of uncomfortableness or fear because in a way, you've you've already done it.

01:31:05:16 - 01:31:07:08
Kyle
You've been in you've been there before.

01:31:07:11 - 01:31:25:15
Justin
Yeah. No I mean I think you and I had a conversation maybe a couple of months ago about like what a scorched earth look like for, you know, like, what if it all goes tits up, you know, and, it's good to, you know, I think it's really valuable. Just like when we're climbing, we oftentimes.

01:31:25:18 - 01:31:26:26
Justin
You know, depends on where you are on your.

01:31:26:26 - 01:31:28:11
Justin
Journey of, like, your lead.

01:31:28:11 - 01:31:29:05
Justin
Head or whatever.

01:31:29:05 - 01:31:34:11
Justin
But fear's always present, right? Like, even for the most elite.

01:31:34:11 - 01:31:38:15
Justin
Like a bolt could rip out of the wall, or a,

01:31:38:17 - 01:31:42:22
Justin
Wire could break on your piece of prey, you know, or whatever it might be.

01:31:42:24 - 01:31:44:02
Justin
And so, like.

01:31:44:04 - 01:31:58:26
Justin
Being able to be comfortable and familiarize yourself with those, really scary moments and that fear and really leaning into that fear, I think it should, should be more common practice because.

01:31:58:29 - 01:31:59:28
Justin
It gives you.

01:31:59:28 - 01:32:03:05
Justin
The understanding that if it does all go.

01:32:03:05 - 01:32:03:28
Justin
Wrong.

01:32:04:05 - 01:32:05:01
Justin
That's the worst.

01:32:05:01 - 01:32:06:11
Justin
Case scenario.

01:32:06:14 - 01:32:09:10
Justin
And and if that does happen, I'll be prepared for it

01:32:09:14 - 01:32:10:22
Kyle
At least mentally.

01:32:10:24 - 01:32:12:03
Kyle
At least mentally.

01:32:12:06 - 01:32:47:12
Kyle
Yeah. Actually I think a great example of this. I just interviewed Michael Vail and Tanner Harnish and they like had a crazy situation where they both like were falling to their deaths and they were able to self rest. Crazy story. But what Tanner had said is like, you know, he spent so many time, so much time in these no fall zone places where a single mishap would kill him that, you know, and in that situation, so many of us would just be gripped, so fearful, unable to concentrate, unable to execute, unable to make the decisions that would keep us alive in those situations.

01:32:47:14 - 01:33:18:21
Kyle
And he said his like antidote, his remedy to that is exactly what we're talking about. He literally would visualize himself falling to his death all the time to familiarize himself with that visceral experience, so that when he's in those situations, when he's in those moments where that is potentially a reality, that visceral fear that overtakes your nervous system is numbed because you've built that fake familiarity with that experience already.

01:33:18:21 - 01:33:21:03
Justin
is it fake, do you think.

01:33:21:25 - 01:33:29:28
Kyle
I mean, I guess fake as a as a I were just talking about the human mind now, okay? It hasn't happened. So it's not technically real.

01:33:29:28 - 01:33:31:21
Justin
when we go to sleep and we dream.

01:33:31:21 - 01:33:33:19
Justin
Is none of that is real, but it

01:33:33:19 - 01:33:35:11
Kyle
it has an effect on us,

01:33:35:11 - 01:33:35:24
Justin
Precisely.

01:33:35:24 - 01:33:43:29
Kyle
and I mean, it is consciousness. Is consciousness real? Is this real? You know, like, we can go. We can go there, we can go there.

01:33:43:29 - 01:33:47:23
Justin
But, I do think that, like, it's more real than we.

01:33:47:23 - 01:33:48:06
Justin
Think because.

01:33:48:06 - 01:33:49:22
Justin
It's it's invoking.

01:33:49:22 - 01:33:56:07
Justin
Those emotions. And I know this was,

01:33:56:09 - 01:34:01:15
Justin
Pretty, I don't remember it was on a Joe Rogan podcast or something like this where, they.

01:34:01:15 - 01:34:04:17
Justin
Were talking about, like,

01:34:04:17 - 01:34:16:24
Justin
if you're always in a bad mood, you're always focusing on the things that are wrong. If you just focus on the things that are good and not the things that are wrong, to be in a good mood all the time, even if those things that are going wrong are not actually happened.

01:34:16:27 - 01:34:18:17
Justin
Like you're making.

01:34:18:17 - 01:34:26:19
Justin
Yourself anxious and depressed and nervous and whatever about things that haven't even happened. Like why? Why are you focusing on that stuff? But your body doesn't know that.

01:34:26:22 - 01:34:26:27
Justin
Your.

01:34:26:27 - 01:34:28:17
Justin
Body's having that reaction.

01:34:28:17 - 01:34:31:07
Kyle
as if it's actually happening. Yeah.

01:34:31:07 - 01:34:58:11
Justin
So I think that's why I like these visualization drills are, were so powerful. And, and things that I, you know, that's why I've been able to excel the way that I have, because that is way more than just, Simple 2D understanding of where I'll be on the wallet at that moment, if I'm, like, imagining myself in the crux, from a video.

01:34:58:20 - 01:35:01:22
Justin
But, you know, I do know that.

01:35:01:24 - 01:35:02:02
Justin
You know.

01:35:02:02 - 01:35:04:14
Justin
We use videos to, like, increase our.

01:35:04:23 - 01:35:06:22
Kyle
flashcards, but yeah.

01:35:06:24 - 01:35:30:10
Kyle
I think you could also expand that into, like, even career choices or someone you want to become like big, big life goals. I think I've definitely heard this before where it's like, paint the picture of who that is now and like become that person in your brain and then you will like manifest that in reality. But you have to be here first.

01:35:30:10 - 01:35:41:26
Kyle
You've got to be that person in your mind first before you can make that happen. I think a lot of people probably search for external validation for who they want to be first.

01:35:42:23 - 01:35:45:15
Justin
Yeah. It's deeper. Well the reason I say that.

01:35:45:15 - 01:35:51:17
Justin
Is because like I think that's a part of why I feel like I'm still trying to unpack.

01:35:52:21 - 01:35:58:19
Justin
You know what direction I want to go. Because after the vision loss and then finding climbing.

01:35:58:19 - 01:35:59:25
Justin
I just got so wrapped.

01:35:59:25 - 01:36:05:23
Justin
Up in a climbing that nothing else mattered. I just was like, putting a Band-Aid on all that. Like

01:36:05:23 - 01:36:10:14
Justin
climbing became the ultimate distraction. I think that's what's so amazing about climbing.

01:36:10:14 - 01:36:22:13
Justin
Is it gives it creates space to the degree that you're able to, Heal. To some degree, yes. But it doesn't take.

01:36:22:13 - 01:36:23:10
Justin
Away the fact that.

01:36:23:10 - 01:36:24:13
Justin
You're you're not.

01:36:24:13 - 01:36:32:26
Justin
Addressing the the root cause of what could be creating baggage for you. You're just distracting it all with climbing.

01:36:32:28 - 01:36:36:04
Justin
And climbing is incredible. And that.

01:36:36:04 - 01:36:38:05
Justin
Sense that you do find some healing with.

01:36:38:10 - 01:36:43:02
Justin
Doors, passion, focus, community.

01:36:43:04 - 01:36:46:03
Justin
All the benefits that we all know and love about rock climbing.

01:36:46:07 - 01:36:54:12
Justin
But it's also potentially one of the biggest distractors and and could be potentially harmful.

01:36:54:12 - 01:36:55:23
Justin
And when done.

01:36:55:23 - 01:37:01:03
Justin
And, extreme volume like.

01:37:01:05 - 01:37:05:23
Justin
Dirtbag lifestyle for example, I I've done it.

01:37:05:26 - 01:37:08:19
Justin
I love it. Is it.

01:37:08:19 - 01:37:09:24
Justin
Sustainable if you.

01:37:09:24 - 01:37:13:09
Justin
One more out of life I, I struggle to.

01:37:13:09 - 01:37:14:22
Justin
To think that that could be the.

01:37:14:22 - 01:37:16:04
Justin
Case because.

01:37:16:06 - 01:37:37:14
Justin
You know, even some climbing mentors of mine will say like, yeah, I wish I would have gotten my shit together sooner. I was just climbing. I just love climbing. And those rock climbers that, have done dirt bag existence and then they've gotten so good at climbing or they just so happen to fall into a job.

01:37:37:14 - 01:37:38:11
Justin
That was related to.

01:37:38:11 - 01:37:39:23
Justin
Rock climbing.

01:37:39:25 - 01:37:41:10
Justin
Or whatever. They were able.

01:37:41:10 - 01:37:44:18
Justin
To, like, make something out of it. And that's beautiful and incredible.

01:37:44:20 - 01:37:45:21
Justin
I also know so.

01:37:45:21 - 01:37:51:25
Justin
Many rock climbers that have just distracted themselves for so long, and they got so caught up in rock climbing.

01:37:51:27 - 01:37:55:12
Justin
That they don't really have a whole lot to show now. And that scares

01:37:56:02 - 01:37:57:03
Kyle
Yeah, for sure.

01:37:57:07 - 01:37:57:10
Kyle
I

01:37:57:10 - 01:37:58:14
Justin
I don't want to be in that

01:37:58:20 - 01:38:15:15
Kyle
It's kind of like, joining the Air Force and trying to become a fighter pilot, and it's an all end game. It's like you either make it or you don't, and only like point 1% of the people make it to that end goal. I'd say it's similar with climbing. It's like even with other skills, it's hard to make a living climbing.

01:38:15:18 - 01:38:33:23
Kyle
And if you're just going to dedicate decades to climbing, yeah, it's, it's a slippery slope. And then you also end up running into issues where, like, your ego is attached to your performance, your identity is attached to your performance. And when things aren't going well, you get injured or whatever they may be like. All of a sudden, this bubble that you've built bursts.

01:38:33:23 - 01:38:52:23
Kyle
And you, we have nothing left to fall down onto. No relationships, no job, no other skills that you've been. You know, it takes time to develop as an adult. These skills that make you professionally sound or these. Yeah, these skills we have to develop as adults. Take time. You can't just like, oh, I guess I climbed for 20 years.

01:38:52:23 - 01:39:10:14
Kyle
Let me start something else. It's like you're 20 years behind, bro. So now that's a reality. And I think it's like you said, it's the allure of climbing. Every day is definitely glorified. And I, I fell victim to it as well. Luckily, my injury just like snap me out of it real quick. It was just like, now, like, we need to shift focus here.

01:39:10:16 - 01:39:14:26
Kyle
You gotta you gotta work on some other stuff. And I was so grateful. So grateful. Like,

01:39:14:28 - 01:39:15:29
Justin
When it doesn't mean that you.

01:39:15:29 - 01:39:20:16
Justin
Need to like cultivate some sort of career. Like I think.

01:39:20:16 - 01:39:27:05
Justin
That if I say that with the knowing in my heart that if you're so passionate about it and that's.

01:39:27:05 - 01:39:37:06
Justin
What brings you happiness and you're satisfied with, having that existence for the rest of your life, that's beautiful.

01:39:37:08 - 01:39:38:09
Justin
But if you're.

01:39:38:11 - 01:39:41:06
Justin
The type of person that knows in the back of your.

01:39:41:06 - 01:39:45:20
Justin
Mind, you might be distracting yourself, but you just keep doing it.

01:39:45:23 - 01:39:49:06
Justin
And then ten years go by and you're like, dude.

01:39:49:08 - 01:40:02:20
Justin
I've just been climbing like this whole time, and now I don't like now it's kind of serious. Like, now I need a job or I, I would love to buy a house or, or whatever.

01:40:02:22 - 01:40:09:17
Justin
Then that's like the kind of realization hits you where you're like, oh, dude, I gotta like, figure I gotta figure it out,

01:40:09:26 - 01:40:12:07
Kyle
What was that transition like for you?

01:40:15:09 - 01:40:16:15
Justin
Van life.

01:40:16:19 - 01:40:26:04
Kyle
Van life. You kind of like, you know, professional athlete, sponsored athlete. Now you've got, like, a full time job. It seems like you've gone through kind of a bit of a transition in that room.

01:40:26:11 - 01:40:30:29
Justin
Yeah. I mean it was like.

01:40:31:02 - 01:40:35:23
Justin
Feeling pretty aimless for many years.

01:40:35:26 - 01:40:37:24
Justin
Unpacking blindness.

01:40:37:26 - 01:40:41:19
Justin
To climbing, not really caring.

01:40:41:19 - 01:41:06:05
Justin
What the outcome of climbing was. But I loved climbing. So that's what I'm just going to do from now on. I'm a climber. And then I'm falling into the lane of like, making good money as a rock climber. But good money as a rock climber is, like, not great, you know what I mean? Unless you're like the Honnold or the Mega is the Andreas or the Schubert's or, you know.

01:41:06:07 - 01:41:06:24
Justin
I no.

01:41:06:24 - 01:41:10:28
Justin
Good money can be made in climbing, but you have to be like.

01:41:11:01 - 01:41:12:25
Justin
The 1% of.

01:41:12:25 - 01:41:17:02
Justin
The 1%. And so that's pretty challenging.

01:41:17:02 - 01:41:22:27
Justin
And I knew that I wanted more before I started rock climbing.

01:41:22:27 - 01:41:31:01
Justin
But rock climbing became the thing that kind of put me on that trajectory towards.

01:41:31:04 - 01:41:32:10
Justin
Being a functioning.

01:41:32:10 - 01:41:33:25
Justin
Member of society, towards.

01:41:33:25 - 01:41:36:25
Justin
Like being, you know, a family.

01:41:36:25 - 01:41:43:08
Justin
Man, towards all these ideas. I had in my mind of what I thought my life would be like in the future.

01:41:43:11 - 01:41:44:02
Justin
But it was still.

01:41:44:02 - 01:41:46:17
Justin
Aimless to some degree.

01:41:46:20 - 01:41:53:24
Justin
And so it didn't really hit me. Well, I guess it kind of never really hit me. I kind of.

01:41:53:24 - 01:41:54:07
Justin
Just fell.

01:41:54:07 - 01:41:57:23
Justin
Into my lap and I just was like, oh, this is the thing I need to do.

01:41:57:23 - 01:41:59:13
Justin
This is perfect. Okay.

01:41:59:15 - 01:42:02:19
Justin
So we we were living in our van.

01:42:02:19 - 01:42:02:26
Justin
It was.

01:42:02:26 - 01:42:03:23
Justin
Unbuilt.

01:42:03:25 - 01:42:11:12
Justin
Traveling around the country in our van and climbing full time. Me and my fiancé and we were.

01:42:11:14 - 01:42:12:28
Justin
Struggling to build this van.

01:42:12:28 - 01:42:14:12
Justin
Y11 come to find.

01:42:14:12 - 01:42:17:24
Justin
Out, it's a lot harder to build a van when you're living in.

01:42:17:24 - 01:42:25:01
Justin
It than it is when it's parked in front of your, driveway. And you have the luxury of, like, living somewhere else.

01:42:25:04 - 01:42:26:24
Justin
So anyway, we we ended.

01:42:26:24 - 01:42:34:19
Justin
Up homeless, kind of living in this, VW shop and this trailer that was also under construction.

01:42:34:22 - 01:42:41:18
Justin
And, we, we ran out of money and, we we were pretty close to.

01:42:41:18 - 01:42:49:00
Justin
Finishing the van, but we were kind of stuck. And so I was just thinking, well, yeah, I guess I will just.

01:42:49:03 - 01:42:50:19
Justin
Start over here in.

01:42:50:19 - 01:43:01:14
Justin
Costa mesa, California, there was a specialized, shop down the street, and I was working for that company before we set off for van life.

01:43:01:21 - 01:43:03:17
Justin
You know, I was like, I guess we'll just start over here.

01:43:03:17 - 01:43:18:28
Justin
But then, a friend introduced me to my now boss, and, it was a start up and digital accessibility at tech company, and it all just kind of fell into place. And then we moved into our house and and Las Vegas. And I kind of realized.

01:43:19:01 - 01:43:22:10
Justin
Oh, this is the.

01:43:22:10 - 01:43:24:23
Justin
Path that I need to be on because I wasn't.

01:43:24:23 - 01:43:26:03
Justin
Really going anywhere.

01:43:26:10 - 01:43:27:18
Justin
With rock climbing.

01:43:27:20 - 01:43:30:04
Justin
Not that I wasn't actually.

01:43:30:07 - 01:43:31:22
Justin
Progressing as an athlete.

01:43:31:22 - 01:43:36:25
Justin
And I had opportunity and there was a.

01:43:36:25 - 01:43:38:25
Justin
Path that was going that way.

01:43:38:28 - 01:43:46:26
Justin
But it was also riddled with. The changing of what climbing.

01:43:46:26 - 01:43:52:02
Justin
And making money looked like. It was very quickly becoming very tick tock.

01:43:52:04 - 01:43:53:24
Justin
Very short form.

01:43:53:24 - 01:43:57:25
Justin
Content. The athletes need to be.

01:43:57:27 - 01:44:07:16
Justin
Writers, photographers, videographers, social media experts and an athlete. And it was just a lot different.

01:44:07:16 - 01:44:08:16
Justin
Than when I had first.

01:44:08:16 - 01:44:26:10
Justin
Started. And so being able to work a, a, I have a career and climb ended up being more holistic than I had expected. It was a a chance to work on.

01:44:26:10 - 01:44:27:27
Justin
My personal life and my.

01:44:27:27 - 01:44:32:04
Justin
Career, and fulfill those.

01:44:32:04 - 01:44:38:15
Justin
Areas in my life that were nagging me as a climber. But I was just suppressing.

01:44:38:18 - 01:44:40:00
Justin
But I was still having a good.

01:44:40:00 - 01:44:40:25
Justin
Time with climbing.

01:44:40:25 - 01:44:47:08
Justin
That suppression was really enjoyable. But it really made me.

01:44:47:08 - 01:44:54:05
Justin
Realize that I was like, not filling those gaps in those parts of my life. And then I was able.

01:44:54:05 - 01:44:55:08
Justin
To start.

01:44:55:08 - 01:45:20:29
Justin
Viewing rock climbing in an entirely different way, and a way where I was like, I'm actually enjoying climbing for climbing sake. I literally said that, April the other day. Like, I'm just, when I go climbing, I'm going climbing because I love climbing, not because I, like, have to send this because it relies on, like, an article that's being written about me, or there's like a, film that someone's making about me or whatever.

01:45:20:29 - 01:45:27:19
Justin
And I love that pressure. But when it's all the time, a lot of athletes get burned out.

01:45:27:21 - 01:45:30:17
Justin
When they see that pressure.

01:45:30:19 - 01:45:31:10
Justin
But I still.

01:45:31:13 - 01:45:39:05
Justin
I mean, I still love, you know, being a supported athlete and I love being able to tell my story and be a champion for accessibility.

01:45:39:05 - 01:45:41:22
Justin
And, you know.

01:45:41:25 - 01:45:43:29
Justin
Talk about things like visualization.

01:45:44:00 - 01:45:44:28
Justin
And all those.

01:45:44:28 - 01:45:52:12
Justin
Things that come with it. It's such a rich experience. And I'm really thankful for the the career I have and rock climbing.

01:45:52:14 - 01:46:03:11
Justin
And I'm really proud of the brands that, you know, believe in me enough to, you know, support me through that journey. And I've been able to do a lot in that world. And so now.

01:46:03:11 - 01:46:03:26
Justin
That I have a.

01:46:03:26 - 01:46:05:13
Justin
Career that also.

01:46:05:13 - 01:46:10:05
Justin
You know, somehow aligns with what I'm doing and, and, rock climbing.

01:46:10:05 - 01:46:11:03
Justin
Is really awesome.

01:46:11:10 - 01:46:20:01
Justin
And aligning by, by that, I mean, you know, I, I've been able to champion accessibility for a long time.

01:46:20:03 - 01:46:23:11
Justin
And not really knowing how to fix the problem.

01:46:23:11 - 01:46:36:16
Justin
And now I work in digital accessibility. I'm actually making the world more accessible for those that are using screen readers or that just have a challenging time using the internet, whatever, or the digital world in.

01:46:36:16 - 01:46:39:00
Justin
Whatever way, shape or form they might use.

01:46:39:06 - 01:46:40:22
Justin
Different assistive technology.

01:46:40:28 - 01:47:09:09
Kyle
Yeah, no. It's cool. It's cool to see what you've done. And it's like, I can imagine it being, I don't know, kind of challenging to find like a, a career that's like high pain, you know, it's got to be a pretty niche situation for for your visual impairment. Right? Like the career options that you have, I would say are pretty like, am I wrong in that assumption?

01:47:13:02 - 01:47:20:01
Justin
Maybe only slightly but like not I mean like you're right in the sense.

01:47:20:01 - 01:47:23:03
Justin
That like someone that's blind is not.

01:47:23:03 - 01:47:32:26
Justin
Going to be able to be a a no trash collector. You wouldn't want someone like.

01:47:32:28 - 01:47:38:21
Justin
That's blind driving a trash truck trying to pick your cans. That might not end very

01:47:38:21 - 01:47:48:01
Kyle
but the accessibility that you are currently, you know, a part of is good enough to the point where you're functional enough to do most jobs that are online.

01:47:48:13 - 01:47:50:05
Justin
Yeah, for sure. With assistive.

01:47:50:05 - 01:47:50:28
Justin
Technology.

01:47:50:28 - 01:47:51:23
Justin
Yeah.

01:47:51:25 - 01:47:54:11
Justin
And that's what's so cool about the world that with the.

01:47:54:14 - 01:47:55:13
Justin
Like the it's that this.

01:47:55:13 - 01:48:01:24
Justin
Is the best time in human history to be alive. And that sense like the things that.

01:48:02:26 - 01:48:18:00
Justin
You might have thought were impossible for someone with a whatever type of disability, there's always, not always, most of the time, there's a some piece of tech that would allow them to excel in whatever that career might be.

01:48:18:07 - 01:48:18:25
Justin
Yeah.

01:48:18:25 - 01:48:28:22
Kyle
that's really cool that you're, like you said, championing that movement as someone like yourself, making the world more accessible for everybody else.

01:48:29:10 - 01:48:30:29
Justin
Yeah. Because I, I.

01:48:31:00 - 01:48:47:04
Justin
Actually I did this conference in Washington DC, the International Association of Privacy Professionals. It's a mouthful. But it's like a legislative, conference where a lot of privacy.

01:48:47:06 - 01:48:48:27
Justin
Niche.

01:48:48:29 - 01:49:01:12
Justin
Industries or privacy and security as a whole, I'll get brought up. And so we were there at that conference and I spoke there, and one of the talking points I used was.

01:49:01:14 - 01:49:03:17
Justin
I've done all these things in climbing.

01:49:03:17 - 01:49:06:05
Justin
While blind, and I never hit any roadblocks.

01:49:06:07 - 01:49:07:25
Justin
And then there's the internet.

01:49:08:15 - 01:49:25:25
Justin
And, we call them blockers and access and, and digital accessibility, where if you're using a screen reader and you're going through your car and you're adding all these things to your car and you and draw your information, and then the screen reader can't find that check out button on the.

01:49:26:09 - 01:49:46:07
Justin
On the website. And so you just can't ever press check out. It just you spent a long time doing all this shopping, and then you get to the point where you're just trying to press check out, and it just never you'll never find it. And it's impossible. And so there's literally no workaround. And so those are the types of things that we fix.

01:49:46:07 - 01:49:49:07
Justin
And we don't just fix things for blindness, but we fix things.

01:49:49:09 - 01:49:52:16
Justin
To a certain standard.

01:49:52:19 - 01:49:53:05
Justin
Yeah. It's really.

01:49:53:05 - 01:49:53:24
Justin
Cool.

01:49:53:24 - 01:49:55:12
Kyle
Let's talk about.

01:49:55:15 - 01:49:56:09
Kyle
The Olympics.

01:49:57:07 - 01:49:58:05
Justin
Oh the

01:49:58:06 - 01:50:15:25
Kyle
Let's talk about the Olympics. So part of all this, like, kind of change and stuff that you've gone through, I think a lot like a it seems like a, a carrot at least that you were kind of gunning for was, the 2028 Olympics and, something changed recently, and I don't think you get to participate now.

01:50:15:25 - 01:50:18:18
Kyle
Is that correct? Yeah, I talked to me about that.

01:50:18:28 - 01:50:20:29
Justin
I had you know, I started.

01:50:20:29 - 01:50:21:19
Justin
As an outdoor.

01:50:21:19 - 01:50:25:11
Justin
Climber and I, achieved, you know, one.

01:50:25:11 - 01:50:29:01
Justin
Of the biggest goals that I, could achieve was winning a world.

01:50:29:01 - 01:50:31:19
Justin
Championship. That was really cool.

01:50:32:00 - 01:50:42:24
Justin
And, I took some years off of, competition climbing and focused solely on outdoor climbing, knowing that the Olympics could be in, in the future.

01:50:42:26 - 01:50:52:18
Justin
It was always a little bit dicey. Who was going to be in the Paralympics for the first time? But they.

01:50:52:18 - 01:50:55:04
Justin
Ended up deciding to go with.

01:50:55:06 - 01:50:57:11
Justin
Men's B1, which is,

01:50:57:14 - 01:51:01:27
Justin
Total blindness and a women's B2. And I'm B2, but I'm not

01:51:01:27 - 01:51:02:18
Kyle
of them to be.

01:51:02:20 - 01:51:13:29
Kyle
Weird. So the gender they even made it a selection between men and women. They let women be two, but not men. Yeah. There was there a reason, a justification? Did you understand any clarity on that?

01:51:14:09 - 01:51:15:08
Justin
The federations are.

01:51:15:08 - 01:51:21:14
Justin
Always so bizarre? I don't understand the politics behind a lot of it, but.

01:51:21:16 - 01:51:24:10
Justin
My my.

01:51:24:13 - 01:51:26:14
Justin
Understanding of.

01:51:26:17 - 01:51:26:28
Justin
What I.

01:51:26:28 - 01:51:29:01
Justin
Think happened is.

01:51:29:03 - 01:51:30:02
Justin
There wasn't enough.

01:51:30:02 - 01:51:31:22
Justin
Representation for.

01:51:31:22 - 01:51:36:25
Justin
Men's B categories as a whole for B.

01:51:36:25 - 01:51:42:17
Justin
Two and three. And so they decided to go with B1.

01:51:42:19 - 01:51:44:15
Justin
But I just, I,

01:51:44:15 - 01:51:44:26
Kyle
know.

01:51:44:28 - 01:51:49:07
Kyle
So there wasn't enough climbers in B2 to justify giving them their own group.

01:51:49:19 - 01:51:50:23
Justin
I think that's what

01:51:50:23 - 01:51:52:19
Kyle
And they can't merge you all

01:51:52:19 - 01:51:53:04
Justin
Right.

01:51:53:04 - 01:51:56:21
Kyle
because there's too much of a disparity between your guys's experience.

01:51:57:00 - 01:51:58:20
Justin
Yeah, they they used to.

01:51:58:20 - 01:52:24:01
Justin
Do aggregation, but I guess for the Olympics, they decided not to like they have. They had done away with it for some of the World Cups, in the past. So I guess based on that, they decided no aggregation, only men's B1, and then they decided to do women's B2 because for the same reasons, I don't think there was enough women's B1 and not enough women's B3.

01:52:24:01 - 01:52:25:24
Kyle
Oh so it's women's B2 only.

01:52:26:06 - 01:52:26:18
Justin
Yeah.

01:52:26:18 - 01:52:30:04
Kyle
Interesting. It's time for a sex change bro. Everybody's doing that now.

01:52:30:04 - 01:52:32:29
Justin
know I should just identify as a woman and I'll be good to go.

01:52:34:29 - 01:52:36:10
Kyle
You did hit the headlines for sure.

01:52:36:10 - 01:52:36:27
Justin
for sure

01:52:37:16 - 01:52:37:29
Justin
Graham.

01:52:37:29 - 01:52:38:16
Kyle
Yeah.

01:52:38:27 - 01:52:39:16
Justin


01:52:39:16 - 01:52:44:04
Kyle
Now, how did you. So, it seemed like that was something you were kind of psyched about, right?

01:52:44:11 - 01:52:48:08
Justin
Yeah. Big time. Yeah, it was huge. Is actually pretty devastating for

01:52:48:15 - 01:52:49:23
Kyle
Yeah. So.

01:52:51:03 - 01:53:00:21
Kyle
Like, how did you process that? And, like, now what? Kind of like, how has that changed your perspective on training and climbing in general? Like, what are you what are you working for?

01:53:01:00 - 01:53:03:03
Justin
Well, I think I don't know, I.

01:53:03:03 - 01:53:08:09
Justin
Have a bunch of different thoughts about, like, the representation of athletes in a.

01:53:10:16 - 01:53:11:15
Justin
Exhibition.

01:53:11:15 - 01:53:15:26
Justin
Run for the Olympics, because that's more or less in the beginning of,

01:53:15:28 - 01:53:33:19
Justin
Climbing, being in the Olympics, it was kind of an exhibition run in the very beginning. Like, let's see how this let's see how it does, you know? And that was why in the beginning, they had all the athletes compete and speed boulder and lead, and they put them all together and one medal for all of them.

01:53:33:21 - 01:53:35:04
Justin
So I don't know I don't know.

01:53:35:04 - 01:53:37:05
Justin
If I, I mean.

01:53:37:07 - 01:53:37:28
Justin
This could be.

01:53:37:28 - 01:53:53:07
Justin
Seen as biased because I'm not participating in the Olympics and, I'm, miffed by that. But I also think that it's also potentially not the best representation of the athletes either.

01:53:53:10 - 01:53:56:27
Justin
Like, there could be a lot better way to.

01:53:56:27 - 01:54:02:17
Justin
Have a better athlete representation then I think the decisions they made.

01:54:02:19 - 01:54:04:02
Justin
To to only.

01:54:04:02 - 01:54:04:17
Justin
Select.

01:54:04:17 - 01:54:07:00
Justin
Certain groups.

01:54:07:03 - 01:54:08:08
Justin
Within the.

01:54:08:21 - 01:54:10:16
Justin
Categories that I chose.

01:54:10:18 - 01:54:13:07
Justin
Because I know there's like just absolute crushers.

01:54:13:07 - 01:54:14:12
Justin
In the category, like.

01:54:14:14 - 01:54:14:22
Justin
Just.

01:54:14:22 - 01:54:18:09
Justin
Like me. There's other friends of mine that don't get to compete.

01:54:18:11 - 01:54:25:22
Justin
And they take their sports so seriously. They are some of the best athletes you.

01:54:25:22 - 01:54:35:05
Justin
Won't get to see, in this Olympics, in 2028 games. So it's not just me that feels this way, you know, it's.

01:54:35:05 - 01:54:37:14
Justin
Like it is what it is.

01:54:37:14 - 01:54:44:28
Justin
And so I guess you just have to keep moving. But anyway, I have like some, some viewpoints that we don't have to get super into.

01:54:46:06 - 01:54:47:06
Justin
But I, I think.

01:54:47:07 - 01:54:48:08
Justin
That that.

01:54:48:08 - 01:54:49:13
Justin
Could have been done a lot better.

01:54:49:13 - 01:54:58:01
Kyle
Yeah, there's probably some I mean, it's still so new and I. Yeah, in general, it's probably a pretty granular subject in terms of how it should be done.

01:54:58:05 - 01:55:00:08
Justin
Well and then it's like there's the notion of like.

01:55:00:08 - 01:55:04:07
Justin
Oh well there's always 2032 and it's like dude kick

01:55:04:09 - 01:55:06:08
Kyle
Athletes. Windows are small.

01:55:06:20 - 01:55:07:00
Justin
While.

01:55:07:00 - 01:55:08:19
Justin
Athletes windows are small.

01:55:08:19 - 01:55:11:14
Justin
And you still you can just.

01:55:11:17 - 01:55:14:18
Justin
Adamantly say that they'll, they'll

01:55:14:22 - 01:55:22:19
Kyle
Yeah. Because anyway, the person is like, okay, I'm going to believe you train their ass off for another four years, get even more invested then. Oh, I guess it didn't work out again. Sorry.

01:55:22:19 - 01:55:24:17
Justin
we're only going to do men's B3

01:55:25:21 - 01:55:26:07
Kyle
Yeah.

01:55:26:07 - 01:55:41:24
Justin
So yeah, there's there it's just like basically that ship has sailed and, that'll never be in the on the table for me. Unfortunately, I mean, I guess it could be, but by then I'll be in my.

01:55:41:27 - 01:55:44:04
Justin
I'll be 40.

01:55:44:07 - 01:55:48:02
Justin
And I just don't. That's just not, I mean, maybe

01:55:48:02 - 01:55:49:18
Kyle
typically not peak performance.

01:55:49:18 - 01:55:54:24
Justin
Typically. But, you know, there could be, like, a miraculous turn of events.

01:55:54:26 - 01:55:56:16
Justin
But it really kind of set the.

01:55:56:16 - 01:56:20:13
Justin
Tone for, like, my future, because, like I mentioned, I've always been an outdoor climber. That's where my love is. That's where I find my joy and passion and climbing for the most part, or not for the most part. That's where I find my drawing and passion and climbing. And so it definitely defined. That's the direction I'll be going from now on.

01:56:22:03 - 01:56:28:17
Justin
And so yeah, I think climbing performance wise and goals.

01:56:28:20 - 01:56:29:10
Justin
You know, I, I'm.

01:56:29:10 - 01:56:38:06
Justin
Still pushing myself in boulders. So there's a lot of projects here and in Vegas that I want to send that. Are you know, v 12 to 14.

01:56:41:05 - 01:56:42:23
Justin
I think that'll be.

01:56:42:25 - 01:56:43:13
Justin
You know, really.

01:56:43:13 - 01:56:49:08
Justin
Rewarding to work towards. Like, the whole process will be really rewarding. And then.

01:56:49:08 - 01:56:50:06
Justin
For sport.

01:56:50:06 - 01:56:59:21
Justin
Climbing, I really want to get a lot better at sport climbing. I know I can boulder well, and I know if I put my mind to whatever challenging.

01:56:59:21 - 01:57:01:03
Justin
Boulder I.

01:57:01:03 - 01:57:11:07
Justin
Want to, I could eventually do it or get to the point where, I have all the training, dialed in that I could, you know, someday achieve those things.

01:57:11:07 - 01:57:14:24
Justin
But, sport climbing, such a big,

01:57:14:27 - 01:57:22:21
Justin
Undertaking for me, it's a lot to memorize. There's a lot more involved. That's something that I really.

01:57:22:21 - 01:57:23:05
Justin
Want to work.

01:57:23:05 - 01:57:24:20
Justin
On. So. Yeah, you could.

01:57:24:23 - 01:57:25:10
Justin
For sure.

01:57:25:10 - 01:57:29:06
Justin
See, see some, pretty big goals.

01:57:29:09 - 01:57:31:21
Justin
In the near future, I would say being.

01:57:31:23 - 01:57:33:10
Justin
Being set.

01:57:33:10 - 01:58:00:12
Kyle
a second. The current blueprint for a successful climbing podcast is simple. Interview the best climbers in the world. Big names mean big followings. Lots of SEO power and a built in audience that helps boost every episode. But this show, this show has never been about that. From the beginning, I have made it my mission to bring you stories from the climbing majority, the climbers who don't live in the limelight, the ones who avoid interviews, quietly put up roots and give back in ways that are rarely recognized.

01:58:00:16 - 01:58:17:05
Kyle
And while that's what makes this show special, it also means we have an uphill battle when it comes to growth. And that is where you come in. If you're psyched about the show, if you've been inspired, entertained, or fired up about an episode. Word of mouth is the single most important way you can help the show. Share an episode with a friend.

01:58:17:09 - 01:58:34:23
Kyle
Play one on a group road trip. Post about the show on social media. Jump onto Reddit threads and Mountain Project forums and share with people what you've been listening to. Be sure to tag the show, tag your favorite guests, and spread the word. And if you want to help even more, I'm currently sending posters to climbing gyms around the country.

01:58:34:27 - 01:58:48:03
Kyle
If you'd like to support one in your climbing gym, be sure to reach out. Email me at the Climbing Majority podcast at gmail.com and I will be sure to send you one. Let's band together and show the climbing community that the climbing majority has a voice.

01:58:49:01 - 01:59:20:02
Kyle
What? So, you know, outside of your, like, personal progression as a climber and you're always striving for, like, you know, pushing performance, right? Just personally, what about in the sense of, like, being an athlete in a way of like, in, in the eyes of a sponsor, the sponsors that you do have, like, is there, a pressure to, like, build a brand, build an audience, like, become more of a, of a content creator?

01:59:20:02 - 01:59:40:05
Kyle
Like, is that kind of part of the the field and like, the trajectory that you feel like you need to follow, or are you totally comfortable at this point where you're just like, I'm climbing from what I'm doing and you know, come what may, and I've got my career that I'm working on, like, how are you kind of balancing those two, those two worlds?

01:59:40:05 - 01:59:41:06
Justin
Yeah. I mean.

01:59:41:06 - 01:59:45:24
Justin
Part of me is, taking a bit of a step back this year because I started.

01:59:46:12 - 02:00:00:26
Justin
A new career, and we're building a company, and, and that comes with its own set of, you know, mental setbacks. You know, it takes a lot, you know? And so, yeah, I mean.

02:00:00:28 - 02:00:01:16
Justin
For a very.

02:00:01:16 - 02:00:10:20
Justin
Short time, I'm focusing on that, but doesn't mean that I'm not providing my sponsors with content and,

02:00:10:22 - 02:00:12:05
Justin
Going where they,

02:00:12:07 - 02:00:14:19
Justin
Want me to go, whether that be events.

02:00:14:19 - 02:00:17:07
Justin
Or, brilliant or not.

02:00:17:07 - 02:00:21:02
Justin
Competitions, but, different engagements and stuff.

02:00:22:06 - 02:00:29:29
Justin
But I think as things have evolved and we're in the world of like short form content and storytelling through video.

02:00:30:01 - 02:00:31:25
Justin
There's a lot I still.

02:00:31:25 - 02:00:37:21
Justin
I'm really passionate about as far as, wanting to continue to create content that's.

02:00:37:23 - 02:00:42:18
Justin
Not just like, you know.

02:00:42:20 - 02:00:48:21
Justin
Candy that that people just consume, you know, and it's just like, you see one video and keep swiping.

02:00:48:24 - 02:00:49:11
Justin
But like.

02:00:49:11 - 02:00:53:26
Justin
Real substance, being able to.

02:00:53:28 - 02:00:54:15
Justin
Impart.

02:00:54:15 - 02:01:01:18
Justin
In my view, of how I see the world, not just literally as a blind climber, but, you know, my.

02:01:01:18 - 02:01:05:15
Justin
Values like who I am and just be able to, you know.

02:01:05:15 - 02:01:07:09
Justin
Tell the story of how I.

02:01:07:09 - 02:01:08:17
Justin
Approach climbing and.

02:01:08:17 - 02:01:08:28
Justin
How I.

02:01:08:28 - 02:01:13:18
Justin
Approach, adventure in general and then share my.

02:01:13:18 - 02:01:14:09
Justin
Experience.

02:01:14:09 - 02:01:18:00
Justin
Online. The the climbing Olympics.

02:01:18:00 - 02:01:28:04
Justin
Stuff definitely changes, that shape, though, because I think, there is a lot to be had in the space of.

02:01:28:04 - 02:01:30:01
Justin
Outdoor media, outdoor.

02:01:30:01 - 02:01:30:13
Justin
Climbing.

02:01:30:13 - 02:01:35:21
Justin
Media. But, there is a huge opportunity.

02:01:35:23 - 02:01:45:08
Justin
Especially if you're going to debut the climbing in the Olympics. That could come with some really serious opportunity.

02:01:45:10 - 02:01:45:28
Justin
For.

02:01:45:28 - 02:01:49:28
Justin
Sponsors and partnerships and all sorts of things.

02:01:50:01 - 02:02:02:18
Kyle
If you were, you're saying if you're stepping into the into the Olympic space. Yeah, for sure. And that kind of trajectory is no longer an option. And so you're having to kind of reinvent the path forward. Yeah.

02:02:02:18 - 02:02:08:06
Justin
Or maybe not renew reinvent. But like.

02:02:08:09 - 02:02:11:24
Justin
Refine the process.

02:02:11:27 - 02:02:12:10
Justin
Because what I.

02:02:12:10 - 02:02:17:26
Justin
Was I mean, again, like, I started as an outdoor climber and I was telling that story.

02:02:17:28 - 02:02:18:25
Justin
And it.

02:02:18:25 - 02:02:25:20
Justin
Was going well, but I feel like it wasn't until I stepped into the competition space.

02:02:25:20 - 02:02:27:07
Justin
That,

02:02:27:09 - 02:02:34:00
Justin
You kind of, earn your stripes or to say, like, you show up, Outdoor Retailer.

02:02:34:03 - 02:02:35:20
Justin
All these different,

02:02:35:22 - 02:02:37:13
Justin
Local competitions.

02:02:38:28 - 02:02:41:24
Justin
Events, festivals.

02:02:41:27 - 02:02:43:02
Justin
You're just always there.

02:02:43:02 - 02:03:06:05
Justin
You're always grinding, you're always available. Your your face is you're just, you know, you're making a name for yourself. You're on the, on the tour, so to say. And competition was a big part of that. And so you I have noticed that, you know, if you're not doing those things, the approach has to be completely different. And I was doing that approach to some degree, but now it has to be a.

02:03:06:05 - 02:03:12:08
Justin
Lot more, targeted.

02:03:12:10 - 02:03:16:12
Justin
So content has to be a certain way.

02:03:16:14 - 02:03:16:28
Justin
I mean.

02:03:16:28 - 02:03:26:04
Justin
You know, how it goes with making content. You're like, following trends and how people are editing and what it looks like to grab someone's attention right off the rip. And.

02:03:26:07 - 02:03:28:21
Justin
Yeah, there's a lot that goes into it.

02:03:28:21 - 02:03:30:26
Kyle
It's also hard to film yourself.

02:03:30:29 - 02:03:31:08
Kyle
Yeah.

02:03:31:14 - 02:03:43:15
Kyle
That's the biggest, the biggest crux I always never I still don't have an answer for that. It's like I'm behind the camera. Yeah. Still, somehow.

02:03:43:19 - 02:03:44:20
Justin
You just need to. Where?

02:03:44:20 - 02:03:47:16
Justin
We need some of those, the Tesla Optimus

02:03:47:28 - 02:03:48:26
Kyle
Yeah, whatever.

02:03:48:26 - 02:03:54:15
Justin
they're actually really good, you can just give them the camera and be like, now, keep this frame like this. Like, yes.

02:03:54:15 - 02:04:17:23
Kyle
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I always like, I see the content of, like, influencers and people that are always the subject. And I'm always like, who's holding the camera? Who's who's the person behind the camera? It's like, I feel like those are the people that are heroes. Sometimes, because you don't remember the person that's behind the camera. Yeah, half the time you forget that there's someone even that that it is a camera.

02:04:17:26 - 02:04:22:04
Kyle
You, like, feel like you're there? Yeah, it's weird for sure. It's a weird place to be.

02:04:22:08 - 02:04:23:17
Justin
Magnus met, Bo was a.

02:04:25:25 - 02:04:30:10
Justin
A new YouTuber. I remember he would just like.

02:04:30:12 - 02:04:31:14
Justin
Oh, this is my friend.

02:04:31:14 - 02:04:32:12
Justin
He's filming me

02:04:33:10 - 02:04:39:14
Justin
know? And that was. I love that, you know, it's such a raw interaction.

02:04:39:17 - 02:04:39:23
Justin
Yeah.

02:04:39:23 - 02:04:45:11
Justin
Those I love Magnus, I love the channel.

02:04:45:14 - 02:04:46:26
Justin
I, I as a.

02:04:46:26 - 02:04:49:09
Justin
Core climber, I miss, like, the beginning.

02:04:49:26 - 02:04:54:11
Kyle
Yeah. How do you, what do you, what do you mean by that. Expand on that. Like what's changed.

02:04:54:27 - 02:04:56:08
Justin
I mean,

02:04:56:11 - 02:04:58:16
Justin
Just the production quality is insane.

02:04:58:23 - 02:05:06:06
Kyle
Oh you mean the core for his channel in general or are you saying media in general? Are you making a broad statement or.

02:05:06:10 - 02:05:07:23
Justin
No. Yeah. For for.

02:05:07:23 - 02:05:08:09
Justin
Magnus, this

02:05:08:11 - 02:05:09:09
Kyle
Oh, okay. Got it.

02:05:09:09 - 02:05:18:08
Justin
suppose that, I like, just like the raw climbing content and the mass content is kind of lost.

02:05:18:08 - 02:05:18:27
Justin
On me.

02:05:18:27 - 02:05:19:15
Kyle
Yeah.

02:05:20:24 - 02:05:22:03
Kyle
Still want to do our film?

02:05:22:11 - 02:05:25:06
Justin
Yeah, we will. I need to get a little.

02:05:25:06 - 02:05:25:29
Justin
Bit more fit.

02:05:25:29 - 02:05:28:21
Kyle
I need to get. I need to get more free time.

02:05:29:06 - 02:05:29:24
Kyle
Yeah.

02:05:29:24 - 02:05:30:14
Justin
No, it's.

02:05:30:14 - 02:05:36:24
Justin
Good in the sense that, the goal that I had for, for that film is,

02:05:36:26 - 02:05:38:01
Justin
It's hard rock climbing.

02:05:38:01 - 02:05:47:18
Justin
As it turns out. I've made some, like, decent links on it, but in the timeline that we did have to try and film that, it's it's good that it's,

02:05:47:25 - 02:05:49:00
Kyle
Hard as it is.

02:05:49:03 - 02:05:49:18
Kyle
Yeah.

02:05:49:18 - 02:05:51:26
Justin
a, of a project.

02:05:53:25 - 02:06:10:18
Justin
But it's also wonderful because, climbing on all sorts of different styles of things and pushing my mental abilities as well as my physical abilities and, becoming a lot better of a rock climber now. And I used to train strength.

02:06:10:21 - 02:06:12:27
Justin
Just religiously.

02:06:12:29 - 02:06:27:20
Justin
That was, again, like falling into some of the things that I feel like I'm the best at are being strong. And so I just kept training those things, and it got me pretty far as a climber. But now it's so, I don't really need to train strength anymore.

02:06:28:23 - 02:06:43:19
Justin
Now it's all technique based that I'm finding the biggest gains. So it's good to continue that process on real rock. And, the goals that I have all will follow. So just in the sheer pursuit of mastery.

02:06:43:19 - 02:06:50:27
Kyle
Yeah. What does that word mean to you. Mastery.

02:06:50:29 - 02:06:53:11
Kyle
Is it the same for everyone or is it a personal thing?

02:06:55:08 - 02:07:03:03
Justin
Maybe surface level. It's like ubiquitous, but I think that it's, Like just.

02:07:03:03 - 02:07:05:21
Justin
Richness of experience.

02:07:05:23 - 02:07:09:19
Justin
And experience being.

02:07:09:21 - 02:07:14:23
Justin
The movement and understanding the patterns of movement and understanding.

02:07:14:25 - 02:07:23:19
Justin
Stone and how you're going to connect to Stone and, the conditions, like there's so much that goes into it, like knowing what a.

02:07:23:19 - 02:07:27:15
Justin
Good conditioned day is going to be like, how you're going to feel.

02:07:27:17 - 02:07:27:26
Justin
What.

02:07:27:26 - 02:07:30:08
Justin
You're eating, like, what you're sleeping is like, how you.

02:07:30:08 - 02:07:31:27
Justin
Treat your body, how you.

02:07:31:27 - 02:07:33:26
Justin
Take care of your mental state.

02:07:33:28 - 02:07:35:02
Justin
How you train, how.

02:07:35:02 - 02:07:39:04
Justin
You stretch, how you recover.

02:07:39:06 - 02:07:41:22
Justin
The mastery of technique.

02:07:41:24 - 02:07:42:17
Justin
The mastery.

02:07:42:18 - 02:07:46:26
Justin
Of, overcoming fear.

02:07:46:28 - 02:07:52:05
Justin
And mastery is not necessarily just that you're so headstrong all the time.

02:07:52:05 - 02:07:59:02
Justin
I'm learning like no one can be on it all the time. But mastering how you feel.

02:07:59:02 - 02:08:00:09
Justin
In any given day.

02:08:00:09 - 02:08:11:03
Justin
I'm not on it today. I need to take a step back. I need to give my body or my mind some time to heal. I'm in this phase of life.

02:08:11:05 - 02:08:15:02
Justin
I'm going to be more kind to myself and give myself more grace.

02:08:15:04 - 02:08:16:04
Justin
This stage of.

02:08:16:04 - 02:08:34:07
Justin
Life is where I can push it. I can redline it. I can be brave. I can be bold and see those mental wedging gains. I I've come to find that the mastery is not just. I'm this strong.

02:08:34:07 - 02:08:39:22
Justin
I know this much movement patterns. It's just so all

02:08:39:22 - 02:08:40:12
Kyle
encompassing.

02:08:40:14 - 02:08:44:04
Kyle
Do you think that mastery is a destination or a journey,

02:08:44:04 - 02:08:44:20
Justin
journey?

02:08:44:22 - 02:08:45:03
Justin
For

02:08:45:03 - 02:08:47:29
Kyle
do you feel like it ever is in any sense achievable?

02:08:49:13 - 02:08:52:08
Justin
That's a great question.

02:08:52:10 - 02:08:53:14
Justin
No.

02:08:54:03 - 02:09:18:27
Kyle
Because to me, I think that mastery would be like, you've achieved. The best version of yourself in a certain modality. You cannot be better. To me, that's personal mastery. I wonder if that's even achievable. Can we reach a limit in that way?

02:09:19:03 - 02:09:19:23
Justin
Well, I think if.

02:09:19:23 - 02:09:25:07
Justin
You ask any master, they'll tell you that they know enough to say that they don't know everything. And

02:09:26:09 - 02:09:27:21
Justin
I think that's like.

02:09:27:28 - 02:09:33:05
Kyle
I guess the worst thing against us with mastery is time. You know, we don't have enough of it.

02:09:33:14 - 02:09:39:09
Justin
Well, there's always something new, right? Like, you know, you look at the best fighters.

02:09:39:09 - 02:09:46:07
Justin
In the world and those guys are masters. They're like many times black belts.

02:09:46:09 - 02:09:47:01
Justin
They know so.

02:09:47:01 - 02:09:51:15
Justin
Many different types of they've mastered all these different forms of martial art, and then.

02:09:51:15 - 02:09:53:18
Justin
They'll encounter someone.

02:09:53:18 - 02:10:02:11
Justin
And, wrestling technique that just, like, shouts them down and like, what the heck? Like, I didn't know that. So then they have the opportunity.

02:10:02:11 - 02:10:03:20
Justin
To learn and continue.

02:10:03:20 - 02:10:10:05
Justin
To excel through that process. So yeah, I mean, does mastery ever have a stopping point?

02:10:10:05 - 02:10:12:23
Justin
I don't think so. In Pursuit.

02:10:12:23 - 02:10:18:21
Justin
Of Mastery is kind of a.

02:10:18:24 - 02:10:21:14
Justin
I don't know, it's, it's an interesting.

02:10:21:14 - 02:10:32:13
Justin
Statement because being in pursuit of mastery, I think, just means you're you've dedicated yourself to something to to master something. But because mastery continues to kind.

02:10:32:13 - 02:10:34:14
Justin
Of elude you

02:10:34:14 - 02:10:35:23
Kyle
Evolve in front of you. Yeah.

02:10:36:01 - 02:10:43:01
Justin
Exactly. That. I think at some point you can for sure be called a master. I mean.

02:10:43:05 - 02:10:45:18
Kyle
In relative terms to other people for sure, for

02:10:45:18 - 02:10:46:07
Justin
sure.

02:10:46:09 - 02:10:58:28
Justin
But as you gain your knowledge, I think at least I realized that the deeper I get into rock climbing, the more I'm like, there's so much that I need to work on.

02:10:59:01 - 02:11:00:20
Justin
And you can I think you can.

02:11:00:20 - 02:11:02:26
Justin
Probably master, like, individual parts of.

02:11:02:26 - 02:11:04:04
Justin
It, for sure.

02:11:04:06 - 02:11:12:06
Justin
Like being a master of, like, that's a crack climbing master that guys really get a roof climbing. That guy is very,

02:11:12:08 - 02:11:16:14
Justin
Yeah. Like he's a, a true a, a.

02:11:16:16 - 02:11:18:11
Justin
Technician, you know.

02:11:19:16 - 02:11:20:23
Kyle
The path to mastery.

02:11:22:00 - 02:11:22:18
Justin
That's fake.

02:11:25:22 - 02:11:30:08
Kyle
Oh, man. Well, dude, it's been, It's been rad. Sit down with the I finally

02:11:30:08 - 02:11:31:19
Justin
Dare you to. Yeah.

02:11:31:19 - 02:11:32:01
Kyle
yeah.

02:11:32:01 - 02:11:34:04
Justin
Really? I was looking forward to it.

02:11:34:04 - 02:11:36:28
Kyle
Yeah. Hope it's everything. You, chalked it up to me.

02:11:37:12 - 02:11:38:14
Justin
Dude, it's all one more.

02:11:39:13 - 02:11:39:15
Justin
to.

02:11:39:15 - 02:11:41:12
Justin
Sit down with my friend and, cool.

02:11:41:12 - 02:11:44:09
Justin
Studio and talk about some really awesome.

02:11:44:09 - 02:11:46:21
Justin
Things and share parts of my life that I haven't shared.

02:11:46:21 - 02:11:48:22
Justin
Before and be vulnerable.

02:11:48:27 - 02:12:00:24
Kyle
Yeah, man. No, I appreciate you, being willing to chat about this kind of stuff and, yeah, to share your life and it's been great to meet you. And I'm stoked to, see where, where life takes the both of us.

02:12:00:27 - 02:12:01:29
Justin
Yeah, totally.

02:12:02:01 - 02:12:03:07
Justin
A lot more adventures that come.

02:12:03:07 - 02:12:03:15
Justin
I'm

02:12:03:20 - 02:12:06:07
Kyle
For sure. We're going to get you on some gear.

02:12:06:12 - 02:12:08:13
Justin
Yeah. To be, to.

02:12:08:13 - 02:12:11:21
Justin
Be continued, we'll have to,

02:12:11:24 - 02:12:18:03
Justin
Get on some multiple adventures. And I'm going to plug some gear along the way.

02:12:19:16 - 02:12:44:00
Speaker 1
That's it for today's episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you liked today's episode, please head on over to Spotify or Apple Podcasts to give the show five stars. This simple gesture significantly helps this community grow. Stay tuned for our next episode where I sit down with AMG's guide, Kevin Heinrich. Plus, as a little added bonus to being one of the few listeners that stay to the end, I'm going to end this episode with a little teaser from Justin.

02:12:44:00 - 02:12:55:17
Speaker 1
A nice Patreon exclusive episode. If you want to listen to the whole thing, please become a Patreon subscriber. Your support means the world and helps continue the growth of this show. I will see you all in two weeks.

02:12:57:20 - 02:12:58:07
Kyle
great.

02:12:58:09 - 02:13:22:19
Kyle
I think, yeah, that's actually quite a nice tangent for something else I have. I have written here, I asked I asked this question kind of to myself and just in general is like, how does one manufacture opportunity for themselves? And to me, the easiest answer I had for that was to invest in yourself so that you can invest in others so that they can then invest back to you.

02:13:22:24 - 02:13:48:29
Kyle
Yeah. And while that might come across as like kind of like a self-involved perspective, I still think that the, the principle of that like, it's ultimately like bring yourself to a position where you are secure as a, as, as your identity and what you can offer in the first place. Then you can offer that and offer yourself and your skills and your human nature to other people.

02:13:49:01 - 02:13:58:17
Kyle
And then by doing that, you ultimately then attract that to yourself. To me, I felt like that was the easiest hack towards manufacturing opportunity for yourself.

02:13:58:17 - 02:13:59:00
Justin


02:13:59:03 - 02:14:07:19
Justin
Yeah I like them. It also is rewarding. So you're, you're.

02:14:07:22 - 02:14:11:23
Justin
Increasing that, that.

02:14:11:25 - 02:14:17:03
Justin
I'm blanking on the word, but you're, you're reinforcing it, because you're.

02:14:17:03 - 02:14:20:11
Justin
You're getting that, that full.

02:14:20:13 - 02:14:21:28
Justin
Full circle.

02:14:22:00 - 02:14:33:00
Justin
Path that you just described. So I think that it's also a, sustainable thing to be able to create opportunities from others or for others because you're improving yourself.

02:14:33:08 - 02:14:34:14
Justin
So you're improving yourself.

02:14:34:14 - 02:14:44:00
Justin
You're also improving others and what you're able to offer them and, and the service that you're providing to them, and therefore the outcome that you're you're getting something.

02:14:44:00 - 02:14:45:00
Justin
Back, but you're.

02:14:45:00 - 02:14:52:08
Justin
Also giving. So it's kind of a beautiful contract between, yourself and those that you're

02:14:52:08 - 02:15:12:13
Kyle
serving for sure. And I think it's also more like I think, like you said, like the more you invest in yourself, the more you can offer other people. And also like, let's say, like you, you've developed skills enough to offer something to somebody and you affect their life in a certain way. I think that it's not so linear to the point where it's like, okay, I affected your life, now give me something to return.

02:15:12:20 - 02:15:33:24
Kyle
It's more like, okay, I affected your life. Now, someone random from a completely other portion of my life now is like in a position where they can offer me something out of the blue, and it's like this weird thing where it's like, you give here, you get here, you give here, you get there. And it's like this symbiotic relationship of of energy that we have as humans.

02:15:33:27 - 02:15:49:19
Kyle
But yeah, I think the key cornerstone to that is not getting trapped in the giver mentality. So you have to be able to put yourself first. And I think that's the same with relationship. It's it's like if you don't know who you are or you don't have your self grounded, how can you give yourself to another human?

02:15:49:21 - 02:15:53:05
Kyle
You can't. Then you're just relying on them to support you.

02:15:53:07 - 02:15:53:11
Kyle
It's

02:15:53:11 - 02:15:54:09
Justin
it's just like the.

02:15:54:09 - 02:15:55:14
Justin
Age old thing of.

02:15:55:14 - 02:16:00:16
Justin
Like, oh, I'm not finding a relationship. I don't know what's going on, but, you know this.

02:16:00:16 - 02:16:02:26
Justin
Person, I've been there.

02:16:02:29 - 02:16:05:17
Justin
I'm not generally, let's, I'll.

02:16:05:17 - 02:16:07:29
Justin
Use my suffering as an example.

02:16:08:02 - 02:16:11:12
Justin
If I'm not happy with myself. Generally.

02:16:11:14 - 02:16:24:03
Justin
I, I know we just talked about a whole bunch of stuff about the fact that I have, like, this duality between the part of me that I hate and the part of me that I really like, and then all that stuff. But like, setting all that aside, I'm generally happy with myself.

02:16:24:06 - 02:16:30:17
Justin
I'm content being alone, you know? And, if you're not able to.

02:16:30:18 - 02:16:32:01
Justin
Like, be content with being.

02:16:32:01 - 02:16:35:11
Justin
Alone and you try and fill all of your time.

02:16:35:11 - 02:16:37:02
Justin
With, making.

02:16:38:12 - 02:16:39:04
Justin
Relationship.

02:16:39:04 - 02:16:40:22
Justin
Pursuits because you're.

02:16:40:22 - 02:16:45:23
Justin
So focused on trying to have that relationship, that person make you happy, you're just going to take.

02:16:45:23 - 02:16:46:28
Justin
Both of you guys.

02:16:46:28 - 02:16:47:22
Justin
Down into.

02:16:47:22 - 02:16:50:12
Justin
The not happy place, and.

02:16:50:12 - 02:16:51:11
Justin
It's not going to be very.

02:16:51:11 - 02:16:55:05
Justin
Enjoyable. So to be able to increase the what you.

02:16:55:05 - 02:16:59:17
Justin
Can do for them and how you serve them and how you give yourself to.

02:16:59:17 - 02:17:01:04
Justin
Them, you need to be able.

02:17:01:04 - 02:17:07:20
Justin
To be content with yourself and be happy with yourself and improve yourself. And all of that starts with self

02:17:07:20 - 02:17:09:01
Kyle
And that also takes time.

02:17:09:01 - 02:17:09:26
Justin
It takes a lot

02:17:09:26 - 02:17:15:08
Kyle
And it takes continual time while you're with someone as well. You can't just, like, give that up the second you find someone.

02:17:15:15 - 02:17:18:18
Justin
and life experience that definitely plays a part.

02:17:18:18 - 02:17:23:05
Justin
Because you can just like say.

02:17:23:07 - 02:17:24:15
Justin
I'm really good.

02:17:24:15 - 02:17:25:10
Justin
At X.

02:17:25:10 - 02:17:26:13
Justin
But I've never done X.

02:17:26:13 - 02:17:27:22
Justin
I just know I'm really good

02:17:28:19 - 02:17:29:09
Kyle
And yeah, you

02:17:29:09 - 02:17:30:01
Justin
You have to have.

02:17:30:01 - 02:17:37:06
Justin
Like, situations that challenge you, that help you grow and to find these moments in your life to to know that you're capable.

02:17:37:23 - 02:17:42:26
Justin
if you had never have those experiences, like you're just kind of a shell.

02:17:43:02 - 02:17:43:21
Justin
I would say.

02:17:44:01 - 02:18:09:19
Kyle
There's a balance between I think there's like multiple ways to tackle something novel. It's like education or experience. Yeah. And there's a boat there's both that are important. But I think certain people will lean on one more than the other. Like I'm going to educate myself as much as possible for application, or I'm just going to start doing it without any education and learn through failure from the start.

02:18:09:21 - 02:18:31:07
Kyle
And I think that both are slow if you do them individually. It's like this weird hybrid that you have to achieve, because in climbing, for sure, I was definitely more of like a experience based person first. Like, I'm just going to go throw myself at it and learn along the way. And, I think I've done that a lot in my life.

02:18:31:07 - 02:18:39:27
Kyle
And I, I'm lucky to be sitting here because most of the stuff I've applied myself in that way have consequences. And so it's like you got to balance that,

02:18:39:27 - 02:18:42:18
Justin
Venn diagram, right? And you want to be right in.

02:18:42:18 - 02:18:43:00
Justin
The middle

02:18:43:00 - 02:18:43:29
Kyle
Yeah.

02:18:43:29 - 02:18:45:26
Justin
because I agree, you know,

02:18:45:28 - 02:18:47:10
Justin
I feel like.

02:18:47:12 - 02:18:47:21
Justin
With.

02:18:47:21 - 02:18:51:29
Justin
Experience, you, you definitely learn the best, or at least I learn the

02:18:51:29 - 02:18:57:18
Kyle
The most concrete things, like the biggest neural pathways that you develop are through experience, I think.

02:18:57:18 - 02:19:10:06
Justin
But there's also something to be said about, like learning something by educating yourself before you go and do it a lot. Just like what you're describing, like where it really matters. You really want to give yourself the education before you're like, oh, I'm going to go try this new.

02:19:10:06 - 02:19:11:03
Justin
Rappelling technique

02:19:11:28 - 02:19:12:15
Justin
done before.

02:19:12:15 - 02:19:13:17
Kyle
Yeah, exactly.

02:19:13:17 - 02:19:16:27
Kyle
Yeah. I'll figure it out on the fly. Yeah.

02:19:16:29 - 02:19:17:14
Kyle
Yeah.

02:19:17:14 - 02:19:20:07
Justin
Tie your knots, folks.