The Climbing Majority
Most of today’s climbing media is focused on what happens at the edges of the sport involving the most experienced and talented climbers in the world. Your host Kyle Broxterman believes that most of these stories and experiences do not directly relate to the majority of climbers that now exist. As a part of this group, he is here to give this new Climbing Majority a voice. Tune in as he explores the world of climbing, through the lens of a non-professional.
The Climbing Majority
101 | A New Era Of Journalism w/ Michael Levy
My guest today is Michael Levy: recreational alpinist, rock climber, journalist and the owner and editor of The Summit Journal. Originally founded in 1955 by Jean Crenshaw and Helen Kilness, The Summit Journal was the first climbing-focused print publication in the U.S.—with Royal Robbins as its main editor. For decades it thrived, reaching over 10,000 subscribers, before being discontinued in 1996. After purchasing the rights to the name, Micheal has since revitalized it into a thriving, subscriber-based, print-only publication.
Let me tell you—before this interview I read the most of the recent issue, and it is beautiful. Matte finish, incredible imagery, it even smells good. It’s artfully put together, and most importantly, it’s filled with some of the most unique, compelling, and engaging climbing stories. While it does highlight big names, Michael has made it a priority to also feature stories from the majority—the everyday climbers who make up the backbone of this community.
In our conversation, we explore who Michael is as a climber, how his passion for journalism developed, and ultimately use that as a lens to discuss the state of climbing media today. We dive into what true journalism really means, how to curate compelling stories, how the internet has reshaped the landscape, and how Michael plans to navigate those waters while leaning fully into his print-only vision: The Summit Journal.
I highly recommend heading over to The Summit Journal's website to learn more about this publication..and if you're interested pick up a copy of your own The first 15 listeners that sign up for an annual subscription to The Summit Journal get a free hat….Go to summitjournal.com and use the code TCM at checkout.
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Resources
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:24
Kyle
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.
00:00:09:26 - 00:00:14:17
Kyle
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.
00:00:15:26 - 00:00:40:08
Kyle
Over the last year or so, I've been considering brands that are interested in supporting the show. And today, I'm very excited to announce our first sponsor lives in. Lives in. As an outdoor apparel company with a small team of passionate climbers that are stoked about supporting this growing community. We call the Climbing Majority, as I already own several lives and products and have been quite a fan of their brand over the last couple of years.
00:00:40:11 - 00:01:00:00
Kyle
I am super stoked to be onboarding them into the show for the next three months, starting in our next episode release. I will be sharing information about the brand, which products I love the most, and offering exclusive discounts only available to listeners of the show. Over the next few months, I hope you consider supporting our sponsor because they are supporting us.
00:01:00:02 - 00:01:24:01
Kyle
While I think you'll be missing out. If you'd rather continue the show without mention of our new sponsor, you can sign up for our Patreon to get access to the ad free version of the show. Just go to Patreon.com slash the Climbing Majority podcast. Also, if you have any questions about this partnership, feel free to reach out. You can DM me on Instagram at the Dot climbing Dot majority or via email at the Climbing Majority podcast at gmail.com.
00:01:24:03 - 00:01:51:01
Kyle
My guest today is Michael Levy, recreational alpinist, rock climber, journalist, and the owner and editor of The Summit Journal. Originally founded in 1955 by Jean Crenshaw and Helen Kil Ness, the Summit Journal was the first climbing focused print publication in the US, with Royal Robbins as its main editor. For decades it thrived, reaching over 10,000 subscribers before being discontinued in 1996 after purchasing rights to the name.
00:01:51:01 - 00:02:20:26
Kyle
Michael has since revitalized it into a thriving, subscriber based, print only publication. Let me tell you before this interview, I read most of the recent issue and it has beautiful matte finish, incredible imagery. It even smells good. It's artfully put together and most importantly, it's filled with some of the most unique, compelling, and engaging climbing stories. While it does highlight big names, Michael has also made it a priority to feature stories from the majority, the everyday climbers who make up the backbone of this community.
00:02:20:29 - 00:02:41:16
Kyle
In our conversation, we explore who Michael is as a climber, how his passion for journalism developed, and ultimately use that as a lens to discuss the state of climbing media. Today, we dive into what true journalism means, how to create compelling stories, how the internet has reshaped the landscape, and how Michael plans to navigate those waters while leaning fully into his print.
00:02:41:16 - 00:03:03:07
Kyle
Only vision, The Summit Journal. I highly recommend heading over to the Summit Journal's website to learn more about this publication, and if you're interested, to pick up a copy of your own. The first 15 listeners that sign up for an annual subscription to The Summit Journal get a free hat. You can find the link in our show notes, or go to Summit journal.com and use the code TCM at checkout.
00:03:03:09 - 00:03:11:25
Kyle
That's Summit journal.com and TCM at checkout. And now I bring you my conversation with Michael Levy.
00:03:24:17 - 00:03:33:23
Kyle
I'm mostly interested in kind of how climbing and journalism kind of intersected. Right? Because that's kind of like what we're doing today. So, like, maybe maybe talk about both.
00:03:33:23 - 00:03:34:03
Kyle
Like,
00:03:34:03 - 00:03:40:08
Kyle
what about climbing and what about journalism and how, you know, did that story kind of develop where you kind of started bringing those two together?
00:03:40:13 - 00:03:41:14
Michael
On the one hand, just.
00:03:41:14 - 00:03:41:27
Michael
Actually.
00:03:41:27 - 00:03:44:19
Michael
Going out and climbing. In high school.
00:03:44:19 - 00:03:45:23
Michael
I started bouldering.
00:03:45:23 - 00:03:47:29
Michael
In a gym that opened five minutes from my.
00:03:47:29 - 00:03:49:17
Michael
House.
00:03:49:19 - 00:03:50:14
Michael
In Westchester, New.
00:03:50:14 - 00:03:53:13
Michael
York, in the burbs. And I was.
00:03:53:15 - 00:03:56:07
Michael
Hooked, you know,
00:03:56:09 - 00:03:58:01
Michael
So that's probably.
00:03:58:01 - 00:03:59:25
Michael
Not that much different than how a.
00:03:59:25 - 00:04:00:29
Michael
Lot of folks.
00:04:00:29 - 00:04:03:14
Michael
My age and a little bit older and definitely younger.
00:04:03:14 - 00:04:05:17
Michael
Got their start. Right.
00:04:05:19 - 00:04:07:23
Michael
But then in college, I didn't really climb much at all.
00:04:07:23 - 00:04:09:02
Michael
And after school.
00:04:09:02 - 00:04:11:05
Michael
Was, you know, kind of looking.
00:04:11:05 - 00:04:12:21
Michael
For.
00:04:12:23 - 00:04:18:15
Michael
An anchor or something, and, climbing. Just, I went full, full into it.
00:04:18:19 - 00:04:19:19
Michael
Gym, outdoors.
00:04:19:26 - 00:04:37:04
Michael
But then, on the other hand, I was an English major. Growing up, I would, you know, I remember reading Into Thin Air. And in eighth grade, my mom bought me the book Touching the Void by Joe Simpson, which is.
00:04:37:07 - 00:04:38:28
Michael
Like the.
00:04:39:01 - 00:04:45:16
Michael
All time most insane and probably most famous alpine epic, you know.
00:04:45:19 - 00:04:46:03
Michael
Ever.
00:04:46:29 - 00:04:53:07
Kyle
That's the that's the one in Peru with the guy who fell on the cross and crawled, crawled out and crawled all the way back to base camp. Yeah.
00:04:53:07 - 00:04:55:08
Michael
Exactly. It's for anyone who has read it. It's it's.
00:04:55:08 - 00:04:56:19
Michael
Truly the most insane.
00:04:56:23 - 00:05:03:05
Kyle
Have you seen the Netflix, movie? Yeah, it does, it does. Does it compare? Is it good? Is the book better?
00:05:03:08 - 00:05:06:00
Kyle
Yeah.
00:05:06:02 - 00:05:11:01
Kyle
Sick. Hell yeah.
00:05:11:04 - 00:05:13:21
Kyle
For a young mind, I'm sure it blew your fucking mind.
00:05:13:24 - 00:05:14:06
Kyle
Yeah.
00:05:14:06 - 00:05:15:03
Michael
it's, it's.
00:05:15:05 - 00:05:21:02
Michael
I mean, so, so having those stories is kind of reference to.
00:05:21:02 - 00:05:25:24
Michael
Right. Like, I think I don't think most kids start they're like, oh, I want to be a boulder.
00:05:25:24 - 00:05:37:26
Michael
Like I want to go climb mountains or something. So yeah. And in that sense, it's on the one hand just the adventure of it. But then also, you know, when I'm older.
00:05:38:04 - 00:05:38:19
Michael
Discovered.
00:05:38:19 - 00:05:40:02
Michael
Climbing the gym.
00:05:40:05 - 00:05:42:08
Michael
Then gradually going outside the shit.
00:05:43:29 - 00:05:57:05
Kyle
Yeah, yeah. And so, I mean, you you seems like you had the vision, at least as a climber is a alpinist or someone to be in the mountains, to be a mountain climber rather than, you know, sticking to bouldering or or single pitch climbing.
00:05:57:09 - 00:05:59:15
Michael
Yeah, I think that's right.
00:05:59:17 - 00:06:01:07
Michael
Again, you know, like.
00:06:01:07 - 00:06:03:01
Michael
For the the person who.
00:06:03:03 - 00:06:05:23
Michael
Comes to climbing without knowing anything about.
00:06:05:23 - 00:06:06:10
Michael
It, your average.
00:06:06:10 - 00:06:06:23
Michael
Person on the.
00:06:06:23 - 00:06:08:25
Michael
Street, I think just.
00:06:08:27 - 00:06:17:12
Michael
Mountaineering albinism is, is just so much easier to understand. And it's like, whoa, you're going to climb a big mountain, right? So most people enter the sport.
00:06:17:14 - 00:06:18:12
Michael
Or who.
00:06:18:13 - 00:06:19:17
Michael
Who don't have a knowledge of.
00:06:19:17 - 00:06:20:23
Michael
The sport.
00:06:20:25 - 00:06:23:06
Michael
You know, that's kind of.
00:06:23:08 - 00:06:24:25
Michael
The feels like.
00:06:24:25 - 00:06:26:21
Michael
The pinnacle, I think.
00:06:26:21 - 00:06:29:17
Michael
But then, you know, once I.
00:06:29:17 - 00:06:30:29
Michael
Started actually.
00:06:30:29 - 00:06:31:28
Michael
Rock climbing.
00:06:32:00 - 00:06:33:18
Michael
Completely forgot about all the other.
00:06:33:20 - 00:06:34:17
Michael
Mountain climbing stuff.
00:06:34:17 - 00:06:36:26
Michael
I just wanted to boulder hard and.
00:06:36:29 - 00:06:37:10
Michael
You know.
00:06:37:24 - 00:06:58:01
Kyle
We also think reality. Reality sets in too. Right. You know, I think the common trope, it's like I remember looking up at Secretary and just be like, dude, I'm going to climb that, you know, in my first year of climbing. And then the more you know, the even now I, I've been climbing for ten years, like the further I progress into the sport of climbing, the further I realize those kind of objectives are away.
00:06:58:01 - 00:07:06:22
Kyle
And I'm just like, wow, you know, like you have no idea what you're looking at. Eight year old self like thinking about these mountains. It's like the distances is so dramatic.
00:07:06:22 - 00:07:06:29
Michael
Yeah.
00:07:06:29 - 00:07:08:02
Michael
The distance and.
00:07:08:05 - 00:07:08:25
Michael
Yeah, exactly.
00:07:08:25 - 00:07:10:01
Michael
The more you do it, the more you.
00:07:10:01 - 00:07:11:18
Michael
Realize just how.
00:07:11:18 - 00:07:14:11
Michael
Serious and big those kinds of things are and how.
00:07:14:11 - 00:07:14:25
Michael
Little.
00:07:14:25 - 00:07:16:11
Michael
You know, like.
00:07:16:14 - 00:07:17:20
Michael
If I.
00:07:17:22 - 00:07:19:20
Michael
Dabble in albinism and.
00:07:19:22 - 00:07:23:27
Michael
You know, dabble is the key word, like, it's just.
00:07:26:00 - 00:07:27:07
Michael
But it is still.
00:07:27:10 - 00:07:29:24
Michael
I do think it's fun on that.
00:07:29:26 - 00:07:30:25
Michael
The spectrum.
00:07:30:25 - 00:07:37:08
Michael
Of climbing that you can even though bouldering and and, you know, climbing a big mountain, they aren't,
00:07:37:10 - 00:07:40:05
Michael
They're worlds apart. They are both part of the same thing.
00:07:40:24 - 00:08:00:08
Kyle
For sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there's like the whole breakdown of, of the different disciplines. I think that the, the element that differentiates the two disciplines is, is like adventure, right. It's like a, it's there's a whole process to it in bouldering. It's down to like the hyper focused movement of like moving across rock over this tiny, you know, gap of ten feet or whatever.
00:08:00:08 - 00:08:10:19
Kyle
So, it's just different disciplines for sure. What about, so, you know, you know, you found climbing a little bit later in life, like 20 years old. You say 2018.
00:08:10:21 - 00:08:13:20
Kyle
Yeah.
00:08:13:22 - 00:08:30:17
Kyle
Okay. And then what about, like, this journalistic side of yourself, like, Is that something, you know, you read these stories as a kid? Is that, you know, did it, did it the did those stories kind of hold on to you at all, like more than a regular kid would, where you're like, man, like, I want to, I want to tell these stories, or I want to be a part of these stories.
00:08:30:17 - 00:08:39:11
Kyle
Like, did that journalistic side of you kind of develop from a younger age, or did that come to you kind of later in life?
00:08:39:11 - 00:08:41:25
Michael
stuff. But English.
00:08:41:27 - 00:08:42:14
Michael
Literature.
00:08:42:14 - 00:08:45:12
Michael
Was my,
00:08:45:14 - 00:08:46:26
Michael
Favorite subject in school.
00:08:48:04 - 00:08:50:10
Michael
I was a brat. A lot.
00:08:50:10 - 00:08:54:19
Michael
Of novels, not a lot of nonfiction, frankly. And then.
00:08:54:22 - 00:08:56:22
Michael
In college, I was.
00:08:56:23 - 00:08:57:24
Michael
An English major.
00:08:57:24 - 00:08:58:29
Michael
So.
00:08:59:01 - 00:09:00:19
Michael
You know, I didn't know what else I wanted to study.
00:09:00:19 - 00:09:02:16
Michael
So I just figured I'd read a lot of good.
00:09:02:16 - 00:09:04:07
Michael
Books. And.
00:09:04:09 - 00:09:08:12
Michael
I wrote a lot of really bad essays, but tried,
00:09:08:14 - 00:09:12:18
Michael
And coming out of school. Yeah. I didn't write.
00:09:12:18 - 00:09:13:03
Michael
For the paper.
00:09:13:03 - 00:09:15:28
Michael
Or anything like that, but,
00:09:16:00 - 00:09:19:07
Michael
Once I really,
00:09:19:09 - 00:09:21:20
Michael
Found climbing.
00:09:21:20 - 00:09:21:26
Michael
I.
00:09:21:26 - 00:09:23:17
Michael
Also was one of those people.
00:09:23:17 - 00:09:24:20
Michael
I just couldn't get enough of it.
00:09:24:20 - 00:09:24:28
Michael
Right?
00:09:24:28 - 00:09:27:11
Michael
Like, I wanted to go to the gym, wanted to climb outside.
00:09:27:11 - 00:09:28:27
Michael
I wanted to read.
00:09:28:27 - 00:09:43:18
Michael
All the news online. I didn't have social media at that point. But I was reading climbing.com, rock and ice.com and, planet mountain and you get climbing. And so in my mind I was like, oh my God. My dream job.
00:09:43:18 - 00:09:44:19
Michael
Would be to be a.
00:09:44:19 - 00:09:48:27
Michael
Climbing journalist and one of these things, but I had no idea.
00:09:48:29 - 00:09:54:21
Michael
Excuse me, how to how to go about that. Where how you get started.
00:09:54:23 - 00:09:57:23
Michael
I mean, I'd never had something published.
00:09:57:25 - 00:10:00:00
Michael
So it it truly felt like a kind of.
00:10:00:00 - 00:10:00:24
Michael
A pipe dream.
00:10:01:13 - 00:10:02:15
Michael
Yeah, I would say the.
00:10:02:23 - 00:10:04:00
Michael
The dream jobs then were that.
00:10:04:00 - 00:10:06:19
Michael
Or just being a guide because.
00:10:08:14 - 00:10:24:25
Kyle
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's these interested disciplines in, like, art that you kind of bring into climbing. Like, for me, I think the parallel would be like photography. It's like you know, I want to be a climbing photographer. You know, that was like something that I chased for a little bit. And then, you know, for whatever, you know, long story.
00:10:24:25 - 00:10:43:12
Kyle
I decided not to not to pursue that, but, so, like, was that something similar where I was like, kind of like, oh, I'm going to, you know, see what this is like and kind of go after it or, you know, how did that kind of develop? Did you go all in or like, did the worlds of climbing and journalism intersect in a way?
00:10:43:12 - 00:10:43:24
Michael
a bit.
00:10:43:24 - 00:10:45:22
Michael
Of a tangent.
00:10:45:24 - 00:10:46:26
Michael
After.
00:10:46:28 - 00:10:56:26
Michael
You know, just going down the rabbit hole, becoming obsessed with climbing that I was working on. I was working in Boston, a job I hated. Didn't know how to.
00:10:56:28 - 00:10:57:20
Michael
Get a job at a.
00:10:57:20 - 00:11:01:28
Michael
Climbing magazine. But again, guiding seemed like.
00:11:01:28 - 00:11:06:27
Michael
An equally cool gig. And I.
00:11:06:29 - 00:11:07:22
Michael
Obviously didn't have any.
00:11:07:22 - 00:11:08:02
Michael
Guiding.
00:11:08:02 - 00:11:08:23
Michael
Qualifications.
00:11:08:23 - 00:11:09:15
Michael
Either either.
00:11:09:15 - 00:11:10:17
Michael
But I knew.
00:11:10:21 - 00:11:10:26
Michael
A.
00:11:10:26 - 00:11:12:21
Michael
Friend of a friend.
00:11:12:23 - 00:11:13:12
Michael
Who had worked for.
00:11:13:12 - 00:11:13:26
Michael
The small.
00:11:13:26 - 00:11:14:17
Michael
Little guiding.
00:11:14:17 - 00:11:16:12
Michael
Outfit in Vietnam.
00:11:16:15 - 00:11:17:25
Michael
Of all places.
00:11:17:27 - 00:11:20:09
Michael
I moved to Vietnam, and worked as a.
00:11:20:09 - 00:11:20:24
Michael
Guide for.
00:11:20:24 - 00:11:24:14
Michael
Six months. There, and then I moved to China and worked.
00:11:24:14 - 00:11:27:25
Michael
For a guide for a year there as a guide for a year
00:11:28:14 - 00:11:29:26
Kyle
Okay.
00:11:36:14 - 00:11:36:23
Michael
guide.
00:11:36:23 - 00:11:39:05
Michael
I was, you know.
00:11:39:08 - 00:11:40:09
Michael
Glorified
00:11:45:14 - 00:11:45:22
Michael
stuff.
00:11:45:22 - 00:11:49:14
Michael
Occasionally teaching someone how to how to lead climb.
00:11:49:17 - 00:11:51:01
Michael
But in Vietnam, there's some deep.
00:11:51:01 - 00:11:51:18
Michael
Water solo.
00:11:51:18 - 00:11:52:05
Michael
Guiding, too.
00:11:52:05 - 00:11:53:03
Michael
Which was just.
00:11:53:05 - 00:11:53:28
Michael
The most fun thing in
00:11:54:11 - 00:11:56:15
Kyle
How do you guide deep water soloing?
00:11:56:17 - 00:11:57:17
Kyle
I mean.
00:11:57:20 - 00:12:04:05
Kyle
Guys, like, here's the wall. Yeah, like.
00:12:06:19 - 00:12:07:22
Michael
So.
00:12:09:11 - 00:12:12:15
Michael
Yeah, that was, you know, I didn't really pursue the.
00:12:12:15 - 00:12:14:21
Michael
Writing journalism thing for a while, but then while.
00:12:14:21 - 00:12:19:24
Michael
I was there, I wrote my first 1 or 2 pieces that I had published.
00:12:19:26 - 00:12:28:12
Michael
And when I came back, I kind of decided the guiding theme wasn't, for me.
00:12:28:15 - 00:12:29:00
Michael
Like a full.
00:12:29:00 - 00:12:32:02
Michael
Time guide in life. But I wanted to have.
00:12:32:02 - 00:12:32:17
Michael
A career.
00:12:32:17 - 00:12:33:14
Michael
In the climbing world.
00:12:33:14 - 00:12:36:00
Michael
So.
00:12:36:02 - 00:12:37:22
Michael
Climbing journalism seemed that much more.
00:12:37:22 - 00:12:38:10
Michael
Attractive all.
00:12:38:10 - 00:12:39:20
Michael
Of a sudden. A.
00:12:39:20 - 00:12:43:01
Michael
Way to really still have that.
00:12:43:01 - 00:12:44:14
Michael
Be a central part of my life, but not.
00:12:51:11 - 00:12:56:01
Kyle
Are you.
00:12:56:04 - 00:12:58:15
Kyle
The climbing related or. No.
00:12:58:17 - 00:12:58:27
Kyle
Yeah.
00:12:58:27 - 00:12:59:07
Michael
bad at.
00:12:59:10 - 00:13:00:06
Michael
Rehab and.
00:13:00:06 - 00:13:06:05
Michael
Rehab, I would say, not my fortes. So I've had a couple. I've had a.
00:13:06:05 - 00:13:07:04
Michael
Labrum down on each.
00:13:07:04 - 00:13:07:23
Michael
Side.
00:13:07:26 - 00:13:15:23
Michael
Good, good to go now. But yeah, I mean, I think, being a.
00:13:15:23 - 00:13:20:26
Michael
Guide can be really could be is is a hard path to follow for.
00:13:20:29 - 00:13:28:13
Michael
So I admire everyone who does it. And, when I came back.
00:13:28:16 - 00:13:30:15
Michael
I was.
00:13:30:18 - 00:13:31:17
Michael
Pretty intent on trying.
00:13:31:17 - 00:13:32:22
Michael
To figure out a way.
00:13:32:22 - 00:13:33:07
Michael
To get into.
00:13:33:07 - 00:13:33:23
Michael
The the.
00:13:33:23 - 00:13:34:24
Michael
Journalism world.
00:13:35:18 - 00:13:39:12
Kyle
And you said you had two pieces published while you were out there. Correct?
00:13:39:29 - 00:13:40:06
Michael
I.
00:13:40:06 - 00:13:43:13
Michael
Think I have to. I had at least one published.
00:13:43:13 - 00:13:46:13
Michael
I wrote a piece about a.
00:13:46:16 - 00:13:48:22
Michael
Vietnamese,
00:13:48:24 - 00:13:51:00
Michael
Guy that worked with.
00:13:51:02 - 00:13:51:09
Michael
Named.
00:13:51:09 - 00:13:54:29
Michael
Vu, who he, was a few.
00:13:54:29 - 00:13:57:29
Michael
Years younger than me and learned to climb barefoot.
00:13:58:25 - 00:14:06:13
Michael
Because, he didn't have money to afford climbing shoes. Didn't have climbing shoes.
00:14:06:15 - 00:14:10:27
Michael
Excuse me? And he was.
00:14:10:29 - 00:14:11:22
Michael
I think, pretty.
00:14:11:22 - 00:14:14:04
Michael
Objectively, I could say that the strongest.
00:14:14:04 - 00:14:16:02
Michael
Climber in Vietnam, he would climb
00:14:17:15 - 00:14:18:20
Kyle
Wow.
00:14:18:22 - 00:14:20:02
Kyle
Wow.
00:14:20:02 - 00:14:21:13
Michael
00:14:21:15 - 00:14:24:04
Michael
Is incredible.
00:14:24:06 - 00:14:27:10
Michael
And just the nicest, sweetest guy.
00:14:27:12 - 00:14:29:00
Michael
But also was mind blowing.
00:14:29:03 - 00:14:29:15
Michael
You know, I haven't.
00:14:29:15 - 00:14:31:18
Michael
Heard of barefoot Charles, but haven't heard
00:14:32:14 - 00:14:34:00
Kyle
Yeah.
00:14:34:00 - 00:14:35:22
Michael
crushing 513 with
00:14:36:13 - 00:14:40:18
Kyle
Did it look like he had an advantage? Because he didn't have shoes on? Like he was?
00:14:40:18 - 00:14:41:04
Michael
Yeah, like.
00:14:41:09 - 00:14:42:17
Michael
He crimps with his toes.
00:14:43:26 - 00:14:45:07
Michael
Whereas.
00:14:45:10 - 00:14:46:28
Michael
You know, I tried climbing barefoot.
00:14:46:28 - 00:14:47:14
Michael
Because that's.
00:14:47:14 - 00:14:48:22
Michael
What, you know, some.
00:14:48:23 - 00:14:49:14
Michael
People out there.
00:14:49:14 - 00:14:51:18
Michael
Did. And on that, that limestone.
00:14:51:18 - 00:14:53:01
Michael
Just terrifically.
00:14:53:01 - 00:14:53:14
Michael
Painful.
00:14:53:14 - 00:14:56:21
Michael
So sharp. So, so like.
00:14:56:23 - 00:14:58:10
Michael
Yeah, I don't know.
00:14:58:18 - 00:15:09:28
Kyle
That's cool. That's an interesting story. Yeah. Now, in terms of getting that published like a, did you have connections in the media space where you could send that to like what was the process of submitting that.
00:15:09:28 - 00:15:12:17
Michael
a cold, so I pitched it, actually.
00:15:12:17 - 00:15:14:16
Michael
Now, it's coming back to me. I pitched.
00:15:14:16 - 00:15:15:12
Michael
It to.
00:15:15:14 - 00:15:16:26
Michael
Rock and ice.
00:15:16:28 - 00:15:18:02
Michael
And I got a reply.
00:15:18:02 - 00:15:19:05
Michael
From.
00:15:19:08 - 00:15:19:26
Michael
The editor at.
00:15:19:26 - 00:15:27:17
Michael
This time. Pretty. Legendary editor named Jeff Jackson that some listeners may have heard of.
00:15:27:19 - 00:15:30:24
Michael
He was editor for a long time and incredible writer.
00:15:30:27 - 00:15:37:04
Michael
And I got a response saying like, yeah, this sounds pretty cool. I would need to see some photos and, you know, need to learn more.
00:15:37:07 - 00:15:37:29
Michael
And I.
00:15:38:01 - 00:15:38:23
Michael
Don't think I ever.
00:15:38:23 - 00:15:40:05
Michael
Followed up.
00:15:41:00 - 00:15:51:23
Michael
Because it was it kind of, you know, felt to I was nervous. There was there's a lot of pressure. All of a sudden I was like, oh my God. I got a response.
00:15:52:26 - 00:15:54:14
Michael
And then forgot about it.
00:15:54:17 - 00:16:03:19
Michael
And then I guess a few months later, I don't know why I didn't follow through on this, but I pitched this climbing magazine called climb that was based in,
00:16:03:21 - 00:16:04:24
Michael
The UK that.
00:16:04:26 - 00:16:05:25
Michael
Went out of print a few.
00:16:05:25 - 00:16:08:00
Michael
Years ago, but was a really beautiful print, glossy.
00:16:08:00 - 00:16:13:11
Michael
Publication. And they said yes. And so I wrote it and, you know, like.
00:16:13:13 - 00:16:15:08
Michael
I don't know, without a couple thousand words.
00:16:15:08 - 00:16:22:04
Michael
Thousand words. And it was really fun. And then I wrote another.
00:16:22:04 - 00:16:24:13
Michael
Piece.
00:16:24:15 - 00:16:25:12
Michael
Not not.
00:16:25:12 - 00:16:27:01
Michael
A piece where I'd.
00:16:27:01 - 00:16:27:14
Michael
Been to.
00:16:27:14 - 00:16:28:27
Michael
The place, like, obviously.
00:16:28:29 - 00:16:31:25
Michael
I had with Vietnam about climbing in.
00:16:31:25 - 00:16:32:23
Michael
The West Bank.
00:16:32:27 - 00:16:39:16
Michael
In, Palestine.
00:16:39:19 - 00:16:40:12
Michael
And so this is.
00:16:40:19 - 00:16:42:04
Michael
Back in 2017. So a.
00:16:42:04 - 00:16:44:24
Michael
Few years before the real Rock.
00:16:44:24 - 00:16:46:02
Michael
Film with Andrew Bishop.
00:16:46:06 - 00:16:48:08
Michael
Came out, which is which is great. So,
00:16:48:21 - 00:16:55:11
Kyle
How are you writing about something and about a place you've never been to.
00:16:55:11 - 00:16:57:08
Michael
know, so I.
00:16:57:08 - 00:17:03:08
Michael
I'd been to the place, I'd been to the West Bank. I spent a bunch time there, and my undergraduate,
00:17:03:11 - 00:17:05:08
Michael
Degree.
00:17:05:11 - 00:17:06:10
Michael
But I never climb there.
00:17:06:10 - 00:17:07:17
Michael
So I.
00:17:07:17 - 00:17:08:14
Michael
Had learned that there.
00:17:08:14 - 00:17:09:14
Michael
Was a.
00:17:09:16 - 00:17:16:06
Michael
Burgeoning climbing scene. These guys are starting a gym. There are some crags being developed and it, you know.
00:17:16:08 - 00:17:19:25
Michael
Felt like a some really rich storylines.
00:17:19:25 - 00:17:20:22
Michael
And so I got in touch.
00:17:20:22 - 00:17:21:05
Michael
With all of.
00:17:21:05 - 00:17:24:17
Michael
Them. I interviewed, Nina Capra's.
00:17:24:20 - 00:17:28:02
Michael
Great. She Swiss, a French climber.
00:17:28:04 - 00:17:28:24
Michael
Had gone there.
00:17:28:24 - 00:17:29:29
Michael
So there were some photos.
00:17:29:29 - 00:17:30:15
Michael
That I knew I.
00:17:30:15 - 00:17:31:05
Michael
Could probably.
00:17:31:11 - 00:17:33:00
Michael
Track down the photographer and see if you.
00:17:33:00 - 00:17:35:04
Michael
Wanted to collaborate.
00:17:35:06 - 00:17:35:13
Michael
And.
00:17:35:13 - 00:17:36:03
Michael
So.
00:17:36:05 - 00:17:45:18
Michael
Yeah, then it's it's kind of getting enough quotes, creating scenes, you know, narrative journalism. You can.
00:17:45:20 - 00:17:46:17
Michael
You can create.
00:17:46:17 - 00:17:48:29
Michael
A scene from even if you weren't there, obviously, anyone who's.
00:17:48:29 - 00:17:51:07
Michael
Read.
00:17:51:10 - 00:17:52:26
Michael
Some narrative nonfiction, you just.
00:17:52:26 - 00:17:54:26
Michael
Got to use a little bit.
00:17:54:26 - 00:17:55:27
Michael
Of imagination, try.
00:17:55:27 - 00:17:59:23
Michael
To keep it all factual, of course, but you can look at pictures.
00:17:59:25 - 00:18:02:20
Michael
So, came up decently, I think. I don't
00:18:04:12 - 00:18:28:24
Kyle
Nice. No. That's cool. I, I'm not like, it wasn't like a prodding question is more. I'm just curious as to, like, you know, how much of the you know, journalistic people are going out there and doing the interviews, doing the research and like, you know, getting the facts and getting their their feet dirty with all this information before, just like chat between something and just like submitting it, you know.
00:18:28:24 - 00:18:29:20
Michael
in.
00:18:29:20 - 00:18:32:27
Michael
Journalism for sure is like, you go.
00:18:32:27 - 00:18:33:25
Michael
Spend time in the.
00:18:33:25 - 00:18:36:12
Michael
Place with the sources if if you.
00:18:36:12 - 00:18:38:07
Michael
Can.
00:18:38:09 - 00:18:41:26
Michael
But there's definitely stories where that's just not possible or.
00:18:41:26 - 00:18:43:19
Michael
You don't have the money to. And so.
00:18:43:21 - 00:18:43:26
Michael
I've.
00:18:43:26 - 00:18:44:12
Michael
Written some.
00:18:44:16 - 00:18:47:10
Michael
Really long pieces.
00:18:47:13 - 00:18:48:18
Michael
Where I never.
00:18:48:18 - 00:18:49:11
Michael
Left.
00:18:49:13 - 00:18:50:03
Michael
My desk.
00:18:50:04 - 00:18:50:27
Michael
You know, I just did all.
00:18:50:27 - 00:18:51:13
Michael
The interviews.
00:18:51:13 - 00:18:55:12
Michael
Over zoom phone.
00:18:55:15 - 00:18:56:21
Michael
And, yeah, there's plenty of ways.
00:18:56:21 - 00:18:58:23
Michael
To kind of.
00:19:00:16 - 00:19:04:28
Kyle
Yeah. For sure.
00:19:05:00 - 00:19:26:19
Kyle
Your kind of progression. So at this point, you know, you're you you got two articles in, you just got back from from this trip. You know, you're trying to kind of structure yourself in the climbing world. What was your vision for how to make that happen? And, you know, how how do we continue this story down your path as a journalist and a climber?
00:19:26:19 - 00:19:26:24
Michael
Yeah.
00:19:26:24 - 00:19:33:05
Michael
So, I honestly didn't have much of an idea when I came back from China.
00:19:33:08 - 00:19:33:29
Michael
You know, I was trying.
00:19:33:29 - 00:19:34:20
Michael
To.
00:19:34:23 - 00:19:35:18
Michael
Come up with stories.
00:19:35:18 - 00:19:37:17
Michael
And dreaming of being a climbing journalist.
00:19:37:17 - 00:19:39:29
Michael
But.
00:19:40:01 - 00:19:41:01
Michael
The at my full time.
00:19:41:01 - 00:19:44:05
Michael
Job there for a year, I worked for,
00:19:44:07 - 00:19:45:00
Michael
A bitcoin.
00:19:45:00 - 00:19:47:08
Michael
Startup. It's called circle.
00:19:47:11 - 00:19:49:02
Michael
And I didn't, not.
00:19:49:02 - 00:19:51:09
Michael
Qualify for what I was doing was a very good at it.
00:19:52:09 - 00:19:58:01
Michael
But after, as that year was winding up, it's still trying to figure out how to actually.
00:19:58:15 - 00:20:01:02
Michael
Follow this, this path.
00:20:01:04 - 00:20:05:05
Michael
I realize I kind of need to, have some humble.
00:20:05:05 - 00:20:05:21
Michael
Pie.
00:20:05:21 - 00:20:07:08
Michael
And, you know, if you want to.
00:20:07:09 - 00:20:07:29
Michael
Start.
00:20:07:29 - 00:20:08:20
Michael
Something new, you gotta.
00:20:08:20 - 00:20:09:22
Michael
Start at the bottom. So I did.
00:20:09:23 - 00:20:13:02
Michael
An internship with really nice,
00:20:13:05 - 00:20:14:07
Michael
Like, I had a couple clips.
00:20:14:07 - 00:20:14:21
Michael
But, you know.
00:20:14:21 - 00:20:18:21
Michael
What are what are a couple more articles, right? I did this is what I wanted to do, but.
00:20:18:21 - 00:20:20:27
Michael
I didn't actually know anything about.
00:20:20:27 - 00:20:25:17
Michael
The industry, about really how to be a journalist.
00:20:26:19 - 00:20:27:07
Michael
There's a there's.
00:20:27:07 - 00:20:27:29
Michael
A lot of learning to do.
00:20:27:29 - 00:20:29:14
Michael
So I applied.
00:20:29:14 - 00:20:31:25
Michael
For an internship at recognize,
00:20:31:27 - 00:20:33:20
Michael
And I feel lucky that they allowed.
00:20:33:20 - 00:20:35:15
Michael
Me to join them. It was. It was unpaid.
00:20:35:15 - 00:20:37:12
Michael
So,
00:20:37:15 - 00:20:40:03
Michael
You know, I moved out, to Carbondale.
00:20:40:08 - 00:20:42:00
Michael
Colorado, which is this great little.
00:20:42:00 - 00:20:43:26
Michael
Town on the western slope of.
00:20:43:26 - 00:20:45:17
Michael
Colorado.
00:20:45:20 - 00:20:50:11
Michael
And got to spend time. I, I when I got the internship.
00:20:50:11 - 00:20:51:29
Michael
I was, I was really excited. I was like, oh.
00:20:51:29 - 00:20:52:23
Michael
Now I'm going to get.
00:20:52:23 - 00:20:53:07
Michael
To.
00:20:53:09 - 00:20:54:14
Michael
Spend time.
00:20:54:14 - 00:20:55:27
Michael
With this editor, Jeff.
00:20:55:27 - 00:20:57:15
Michael
Jackson, that that same editor.
00:20:57:15 - 00:21:00:26
Michael
Who had originally pitched the piece about VU. So I was really psyched.
00:21:00:26 - 00:21:02:17
Michael
And and went out there and we.
00:21:02:17 - 00:21:03:06
Michael
Were like ships.
00:21:03:06 - 00:21:03:29
Michael
Passing in the night.
00:21:03:29 - 00:21:04:19
Michael
It was just.
00:21:04:19 - 00:21:05:06
Michael
At the end
00:21:06:11 - 00:21:09:17
Kyle
Oh no.
00:21:10:28 - 00:21:15:29
Kyle
Wow. Yeah.
00:21:16:01 - 00:21:34:03
Kyle
How are you funding this? So it's an unpaid job. You know, you quit this bitcoin mining thing. Like how? You know, I think a lot of people might find themselves in the shoes of, like, I really want to pursue this dream, but I have to stop making money and accept this unpaid internship, like, you know, that's a big wall for a lot of people.
00:21:34:03 - 00:21:36:15
Kyle
So how were you able to make that decision?
00:21:36:15 - 00:21:36:25
Michael
sure.
00:21:36:25 - 00:21:41:15
Michael
I mean, I had some meager savings when I was in, Asia.
00:21:41:15 - 00:21:43:00
Michael
It was.
00:21:43:02 - 00:21:43:21
Michael
Pretty much a.
00:21:43:21 - 00:21:44:05
Michael
Break.
00:21:44:05 - 00:21:46:20
Michael
Even proposition.
00:21:46:23 - 00:21:48:12
Michael
Before that, I had worked.
00:21:48:14 - 00:21:49:17
Michael
In,
00:21:49:19 - 00:21:50:07
Michael
Saved a.
00:21:50:07 - 00:21:53:02
Michael
Little bit of money, so I had some some meager savings in it.
00:21:53:05 - 00:21:54:02
Michael
Rate. It's a.
00:21:54:06 - 00:21:57:03
Michael
Am.
00:21:57:05 - 00:22:00:12
Michael
It's a trade off. Like, you have to be.
00:22:00:12 - 00:22:02:27
Michael
Willing to kind of I can. It's not like.
00:22:02:27 - 00:22:03:10
Michael
I was dirt.
00:22:03:10 - 00:22:06:20
Michael
Bagging it, but, I was living in just.
00:22:06:20 - 00:22:08:10
Michael
A pretty shitty.
00:22:08:10 - 00:22:11:03
Michael
Apartment for a few months and hoping that I would find something.
00:22:11:03 - 00:22:11:21
Michael
After.
00:22:11:23 - 00:22:17:15
Michael
And if I didn't, banking on the fact that,
00:22:17:17 - 00:22:18:11
Michael
I could get.
00:22:18:11 - 00:22:18:23
Michael
Some other.
00:22:18:23 - 00:22:20:12
Michael
Job, pivot back.
00:22:21:09 - 00:22:27:06
Kyle
Was was there like, a was there an end date to your internship, like, to where you would be making money?
00:22:27:06 - 00:22:27:15
Michael
so.
00:22:27:15 - 00:22:28:09
Michael
The internship was.
00:22:28:09 - 00:22:29:02
Michael
Just.
00:22:29:05 - 00:22:30:13
Michael
It was three months or something. It
00:22:30:21 - 00:22:35:03
Kyle
Oh, okay. I was like, hey, come learn and then get the fuck out.
00:22:35:04 - 00:22:36:01
Michael
Through.
00:22:36:03 - 00:22:37:01
Michael
The end of the year.
00:22:37:01 - 00:22:37:28
Michael
August of this year.
00:22:37:28 - 00:22:42:27
Michael
Yeah. September through the end of the year. And, in terms of, like, you know, being able to afford.
00:22:42:27 - 00:22:43:09
Michael
Stuff.
00:22:43:09 - 00:22:43:26
Michael
After my.
00:22:43:26 - 00:22:44:17
Michael
Job.
00:22:44:17 - 00:22:45:08
Michael
Ended and I.
00:22:45:08 - 00:22:45:27
Michael
Quit the.
00:22:45:27 - 00:22:53:11
Michael
Bitcoin place in June, I think, and,
00:22:53:14 - 00:22:58:13
Michael
There was a like. I don't know exactly what I did, I.
00:22:58:13 - 00:22:59:08
Michael
Think until I.
00:22:59:08 - 00:23:00:08
Michael
Got to Colorado.
00:23:00:08 - 00:23:02:27
Michael
And got on,
00:23:03:00 - 00:23:04:11
Michael
Obamacare public.
00:23:04:12 - 00:23:05:10
Michael
Exchange.
00:23:05:13 - 00:23:06:12
Michael
I just went without.
00:23:06:20 - 00:23:10:18
Michael
Health insurance for a few months, including. So I.
00:23:10:18 - 00:23:11:20
Michael
Was at a bachelor party.
00:23:11:20 - 00:23:15:16
Michael
And, nicked the top of my foot with an ax.
00:23:25:19 - 00:23:29:14
Kyle
Without health care. Without health coverage.
00:23:29:16 - 00:23:30:27
Kyle
Oh.
00:23:30:27 - 00:23:36:06
Michael
but, yeah. So I probably need stitches, but didn't get stitches there. But then also went and climbed.
00:23:36:09 - 00:23:40:26
Michael
Right after that, the bachelor party. And right before.
00:23:40:28 - 00:23:44:07
Michael
The internship, I went to Yosemite,
00:23:44:09 - 00:23:44:15
Michael
For the.
00:23:44:15 - 00:23:46:25
Michael
First time and did the nose.
00:23:46:25 - 00:23:47:29
Michael
And I. Yeah, I don't think I.
00:23:47:29 - 00:23:48:24
Michael
Had health insurance then
00:23:49:16 - 00:23:53:29
Kyle
So you went for it. You went for the nose before you started the internship at Rock. Nice.
00:23:54:02 - 00:23:54:27
Kyle
Yeah.
00:23:55:00 - 00:23:58:12
Michael
I had been what was it that year?
00:23:58:12 - 00:24:06:00
Michael
I'd been really keen and intent on trying to plan a trip to the bugaboo. In Canada.
00:24:06:03 - 00:24:07:06
Michael
I really wanted to go do.
00:24:07:06 - 00:24:07:14
Michael
Some of.
00:24:07:14 - 00:24:08:28
Michael
Those peaks.
00:24:10:10 - 00:24:12:16
Michael
But the partner has,
00:24:12:19 - 00:24:13:14
Michael
That I've been talking.
00:24:13:14 - 00:24:14:17
Michael
With it fell through.
00:24:14:17 - 00:24:24:08
Michael
For some reason. And then kind of at the last second, a different friend, said, hey, you want to go do the no. This summer? And I kind of hadn't been on my radar.
00:24:24:11 - 00:24:25:23
Michael
I was like, sure.
00:24:25:27 - 00:24:27:15
Michael
You know, I've never any time, but.
00:24:27:18 - 00:24:28:13
Michael
It's gotta.
00:24:28:13 - 00:24:30:18
Michael
Learn sometime.
00:24:30:21 - 00:24:35:28
Michael
So we were kind of, bumbled our way up. It.
00:24:36:26 - 00:24:39:03
Kyle
What did that experience look like?
00:24:39:05 - 00:24:40:03
Kyle
Oh,
00:24:40:03 - 00:24:40:29
Michael
you know.
00:24:41:01 - 00:24:41:17
Michael
We didn't.
00:24:41:24 - 00:24:44:10
Michael
We, neither of us.
00:24:44:13 - 00:24:45:20
Michael
Is is like.
00:24:45:22 - 00:24:49:09
Michael
Is a cutting edge, free climber by any means. Neither of.
00:24:49:09 - 00:24:50:15
Michael
Us really.
00:24:50:15 - 00:24:50:26
Michael
Knew how.
00:24:50:26 - 00:24:51:01
Michael
To.
00:24:51:08 - 00:24:51:18
Michael
Climb.
00:24:51:18 - 00:24:52:14
Michael
We read.
00:24:52:14 - 00:24:53:27
Michael
You know, one of Chris McNamara's.
00:24:53:27 - 00:24:56:13
Michael
Books, like, had a had a big wall.
00:24:56:13 - 00:24:57:19
Michael
Climb or something like that.
00:24:57:24 - 00:24:58:16
Michael
A couple weeks before.
00:24:58:16 - 00:25:00:13
Michael
We went, did some.
00:25:00:13 - 00:25:02:09
Michael
Practice at a local crag.
00:25:02:12 - 00:25:08:22
Michael
And then got there and we had big plans. We're like, okay, we're going to do, Leaning Tower, we're going to do.
00:25:08:22 - 00:25:09:03
Michael
Washington.
00:25:09:03 - 00:25:10:08
Michael
Column, you know, as warm up.
00:25:10:08 - 00:25:11:06
Michael
Walls or whatever.
00:25:11:14 - 00:25:12:06
Michael
And then I.
00:25:12:07 - 00:25:14:25
Michael
Did the Washington column, and it was just such a clusterfuck.
00:25:14:25 - 00:25:17:28
Michael
And we didn't know our systems for hauling.
00:25:18:01 - 00:25:19:09
Michael
Such a disaster.
00:25:19:09 - 00:25:21:25
Michael
And I went the wrong way on one pitch and.
00:25:21:28 - 00:25:23:23
Michael
Pulled off a
00:25:24:26 - 00:25:26:18
Kyle
Oh, my God.
00:25:34:01 - 00:25:34:10
Michael
For.
00:25:34:14 - 00:25:36:04
Michael
Pretending, you know.
00:25:36:06 - 00:25:39:18
Michael
Like, we were.
00:25:39:21 - 00:25:40:10
Michael
Seeing the old.
00:25:40:10 - 00:25:44:20
Michael
Days, like, I think we were way past, you know, this is 2015.
00:25:44:23 - 00:25:45:19
Michael
Or something like that.
00:25:45:19 - 00:25:52:27
Michael
It's well past the the, the heyday of dirt bags and cleaning for. But it feels cool to be there for sure, even today.
00:25:52:27 - 00:25:55:05
Michael
Still,
00:25:55:08 - 00:25:57:26
Michael
And yeah, actually.
00:25:58:02 - 00:25:59:21
Michael
Getting on the nose was.
00:25:59:24 - 00:26:00:05
Michael
Really.
00:26:00:05 - 00:26:01:27
Michael
Really fun.
00:26:01:29 - 00:26:05:06
Michael
It was I think we did it at the very.
00:26:05:11 - 00:26:05:22
Michael
End of.
00:26:05:22 - 00:26:10:10
Michael
July or beginning of August. So it was like we were, I think we.
00:26:10:10 - 00:26:11:24
Michael
Were the only ones
00:26:12:21 - 00:26:21:18
Kyle
Yeah. It's like typically terrible conditions.
00:26:24:23 - 00:26:33:03
Kyle
Because there was no one else there. Got it.
00:26:33:05 - 00:26:33:27
Kyle
Yeah.
00:26:34:00 - 00:26:36:17
Kyle
Dull towers.
00:26:36:17 - 00:26:37:04
Michael
yeah.
00:26:37:04 - 00:26:37:27
Michael
So I mean.
00:26:38:04 - 00:26:38:09
Michael
That.
00:26:38:09 - 00:26:43:28
Michael
Feels like a nightmare to me with ten parties trying to figure out where you're going to end up setting up your
00:26:44:24 - 00:26:52:21
Kyle
So it was at a decision you guys made like were choosing heat over people. Yeah.
00:26:52:24 - 00:26:59:08
Kyle
You're like, we're just going for the nose. I don't care how we do it.
00:26:59:10 - 00:27:00:14
Kyle
Yeah.
00:27:00:16 - 00:27:06:12
Kyle
So how how did you guys get up before things started getting fucking silly?
00:27:08:08 - 00:27:10:28
Michael
Oh, on on, I mean.
00:27:10:28 - 00:27:14:15
Michael
First day, I guess. I think we fixed it,
00:27:14:17 - 00:27:17:03
Michael
Cycle and then went to,
00:27:17:06 - 00:27:20:09
Michael
El Cap Tower the first full day.
00:27:21:08 - 00:27:22:14
Michael
And then.
00:27:22:17 - 00:27:25:13
Michael
The next day, I mean, we were going so slowly, and then we see.
00:27:25:16 - 00:27:27:03
Michael
The first party we see on the wall.
00:27:27:08 - 00:27:32:23
Michael
Some of them coming up behind us. And this woman, who eventually.
00:27:32:23 - 00:27:33:25
Michael
As she gets closer, we realize.
00:27:33:25 - 00:27:34:27
Michael
She's climbing by herself.
00:27:34:27 - 00:27:37:25
Michael
She's so she's she's soloing Ed.
00:27:37:25 - 00:27:38:15
Michael
Soloing now, free.
00:27:38:15 - 00:27:41:20
Michael
Soloing where she's freestyling parts of it. But,
00:27:41:23 - 00:27:44:05
Michael
It ended up being this, woman, Miranda.
00:27:44:05 - 00:27:45:08
Michael
Oakley, who's.
00:27:45:09 - 00:27:49:00
Michael
A phenomenal, incredible climber. And so.
00:27:49:00 - 00:27:49:17
Michael
While we are.
00:27:49:17 - 00:27:50:15
Michael
Like, inching our way.
00:27:50:15 - 00:27:54:03
Michael
Up, fighting for every little bit.
00:27:54:05 - 00:27:54:19
Michael
She.
00:27:54:19 - 00:27:54:26
Michael
Was.
00:27:55:02 - 00:27:55:17
Michael
On that.
00:27:55:17 - 00:27:56:07
Michael
Very lap.
00:27:56:07 - 00:27:58:25
Michael
She became the first woman.
00:27:58:27 - 00:27:59:20
Michael
To solo.
00:27:59:20 - 00:28:01:29
Michael
The nose in a day.
00:28:02:01 - 00:28:04:19
Michael
It was just a little demoralizing. It was a.
00:28:04:19 - 00:28:05:17
Michael
Little demoralizing for.
00:28:05:17 - 00:28:08:14
Michael
Us when we thought about it. Just like how fast she.
00:28:08:14 - 00:28:10:07
Michael
Was going and,
00:28:10:09 - 00:28:14:01
Michael
How much we were struggling. But it was.
00:28:14:04 - 00:28:16:28
Michael
We it didn't get.
00:28:17:00 - 00:28:17:10
Michael
By.
00:28:17:10 - 00:28:20:20
Michael
By, you know, the end of the second day, we were pretty thirsty.
00:28:20:20 - 00:28:21:23
Michael
I think we we.
00:28:21:23 - 00:28:22:04
Michael
Couldn't have.
00:28:22:04 - 00:28:22:19
Michael
Run enough
00:28:23:11 - 00:28:24:11
Kyle
Yeah.
00:28:24:13 - 00:28:27:09
Kyle
Especially for that heat. Did you guys run.
00:28:27:09 - 00:28:29:24
Kyle
Out of water?
00:28:29:24 - 00:28:30:15
Michael
00:28:30:17 - 00:28:31:01
Michael
I don't think.
00:28:31:01 - 00:28:34:09
Michael
So, but it is for.
00:28:34:11 - 00:28:41:02
Michael
That's still the one and only time I've climbed El Cap. When you get to the top.
00:28:41:05 - 00:28:41:22
Michael
At least there.
00:28:41:23 - 00:28:42:24
Michael
And I imagine.
00:28:42:27 - 00:28:43:06
Michael
Just.
00:28:43:09 - 00:28:47:23
Michael
It's a normal thing as you're going hiking down towards the.
00:28:47:23 - 00:28:48:26
Michael
East ledges, the.
00:28:48:26 - 00:28:50:05
Michael
Descent, you just come.
00:28:50:05 - 00:28:52:01
Michael
Across all these, like,
00:28:55:11 - 00:28:57:27
Michael
water, like Arizona iced tea jugs that people.
00:28:57:27 - 00:29:04:10
Michael
Have abandoned from from prior stance, on the one hand, because they probably don't have to carry extra weight down. But on the other, I think it's,
00:29:04:10 - 00:29:06:24
Kyle
service.
00:29:06:26 - 00:29:08:04
Kyle
Yeah.
00:29:08:04 - 00:29:08:11
Michael
mean, we.
00:29:08:11 - 00:29:09:01
Michael
Were so thirsty.
00:29:09:01 - 00:29:13:12
Michael
So we come to these, you know, steaming hot.
00:29:13:14 - 00:29:17:09
Michael
Third full jugs of Arizona iced water.
00:29:17:15 - 00:29:21:12
Michael
And God knows how long we've been there and just, you know, gulp them down is.
00:29:21:14 - 00:29:22:16
Michael
It's incredible.
00:29:22:26 - 00:29:26:02
Kyle
No sickness or anything from them.
00:29:27:13 - 00:29:30:09
Kyle
I'm sure you treat you like I don't care. I'm going to die anyway.
00:29:30:12 - 00:29:31:09
Kyle
Yeah.
00:29:31:11 - 00:29:43:27
Kyle
So it seems like you got up there all pretty, you know? Yeah, sure. You guys faff around a little bit, but, you know, no epics. You guys got up, you made made the ascent. How long was the time?
00:29:43:29 - 00:29:46:18
Kyle
Okay, so not bad for your first time.
00:29:46:25 - 00:29:47:27
Kyle
Yeah.
00:29:47:27 - 00:29:50:28
Kyle
Oh.
00:29:50:28 - 00:29:51:13
Michael
upside down.
00:29:51:17 - 00:29:54:01
Michael
Fall on the changing corners.
00:29:54:03 - 00:29:56:21
Michael
Bathing. Just ripped a couple ropes or
00:29:57:04 - 00:29:57:24
Kyle
Yeah.
00:29:57:24 - 00:29:58:26
Michael
And that was that was.
00:29:59:00 - 00:30:00:00
Michael
At the end of my wits.
00:30:00:00 - 00:30:02:19
Michael
There. That's done. I it off.
00:30:02:19 - 00:30:05:22
Kyle
Did you have to go back up and finish the pitch, or did your buddy take over?
00:30:05:22 - 00:30:09:22
Michael
Yeah, I finished.
00:30:09:22 - 00:30:22:15
Kyle
So did you, like, in terms of, like, the the girl, what was her name again? I'm sorry. The Miranda. Like. Did you see that as, like, this journalistic opportunity in a way of some kind?
00:30:22:15 - 00:30:25:04
Michael
I mean, I had my phone with me and I snap photos.
00:30:25:04 - 00:30:25:11
Michael
Because I.
00:30:25:11 - 00:30:28:15
Michael
Was, I mean, I didn't I don't know if I remember.
00:30:28:15 - 00:30:29:09
Michael
What.
00:30:29:11 - 00:30:31:29
Michael
That we learned what she was doing while we were on the wall.
00:30:31:29 - 00:30:33:01
Michael
Or if I figured it out.
00:30:33:04 - 00:30:34:26
Michael
Once we got down, but snapped.
00:30:34:26 - 00:30:39:19
Michael
Some pictures because I was like, this is really cool. You know, if I was if I'm.
00:30:39:19 - 00:30:40:21
Michael
Ever good enough to do this.
00:30:40:21 - 00:30:43:08
Michael
I would love to do it. Obviously.
00:30:43:10 - 00:30:46:20
Michael
I'm not a now and.
00:30:46:22 - 00:30:48:25
Michael
Probably won't ever be, but it was really cool to.
00:30:48:25 - 00:30:51:21
Michael
Watch. And so when I got down and kind of put the.
00:30:51:21 - 00:30:56:24
Michael
Pieces together, I forget if I.
00:30:56:26 - 00:30:57:15
Michael
Somewhere.
00:30:57:16 - 00:31:00:01
Michael
I either reached out.
00:31:00:01 - 00:31:03:00
Michael
To alpinist or someone learned that.
00:31:03:00 - 00:31:04:07
Michael
I or.
00:31:04:10 - 00:31:06:06
Michael
Miranda told someone.
00:31:06:08 - 00:31:06:27
Michael
That I had.
00:31:06:27 - 00:31:07:27
Michael
A picture. Anyways, I had a.
00:31:07:27 - 00:31:08:08
Michael
Photo.
00:31:08:08 - 00:31:10:27
Michael
Published in annapolis.com with it, and so I was.
00:31:10:27 - 00:31:12:04
Michael
Like, oh.
00:31:12:06 - 00:31:13:29
Michael
This is great timing. My my.
00:31:14:01 - 00:31:14:06
Michael
My.
00:31:14:07 - 00:31:15:14
Michael
Climbing journalism career.
00:31:16:04 - 00:31:18:03
Kyle
It started.
00:31:20:15 - 00:31:23:09
Kyle
Did you get paid for it?
00:31:23:12 - 00:31:23:26
Kyle
So what the.
00:31:23:26 - 00:31:42:20
Kyle
Fuck is that about? Honestly. So. Okay, let's talk about. I think that that, you know, I want to dive into, like, the state of claiming media and stuff, and we're, like, wrapping up into your time at rock. Nice. I'll start with this question. Like, why didn't you ask for money? Or why didn't they ask for payment or like a compensation for that?
00:31:42:22 - 00:31:46:05
Kyle
Yeah, I get asked okay.
00:31:46:06 - 00:31:52:24
Michael
Sure they said that we they just didn't have a budget for.
00:31:52:27 - 00:31:56:06
Michael
Online content or most online content or something like.
00:31:56:06 - 00:31:56:19
Michael
That, or.
00:31:56:19 - 00:32:00:06
Michael
At least, you know, online photos. I don't know when I worked.
00:32:00:06 - 00:32:01:07
Michael
That's that's the.
00:32:01:07 - 00:32:02:11
Michael
Kind of answer.
00:32:04:12 - 00:32:07:02
Kyle
Somebody else there,
00:32:07:02 - 00:32:07:20
Michael
Rock nice.
00:32:07:21 - 00:32:08:05
Michael
That was just.
00:32:08:06 - 00:32:14:06
Michael
Kind of the the nature of things.
00:32:14:08 - 00:32:15:10
Michael
There was just.
00:32:15:18 - 00:32:19:03
Michael
On the one hand,
00:32:19:05 - 00:32:23:15
Michael
Journalism right across, subjects.
00:32:23:21 - 00:32:27:04
Michael
Climbing adventure mainstream, right.
00:32:27:04 - 00:32:34:13
Michael
Is just like, it's not like the, the, the glory days. There's just less.
00:32:34:14 - 00:32:40:08
Michael
Money, more content. But climbing media.
00:32:40:08 - 00:32:44:11
Michael
Is the it kind of over the years, it.
00:32:44:12 - 00:32:45:18
Michael
Developed into this thing where.
00:32:45:22 - 00:32:46:02
Michael
All.
00:32:46:02 - 00:32:47:08
Michael
The online content was.
00:32:47:08 - 00:32:47:28
Michael
Free.
00:32:48:28 - 00:32:50:08
Michael
To access.
00:32:50:08 - 00:32:52:07
Michael
And.
00:32:52:09 - 00:32:53:06
Michael
As a result.
00:32:53:06 - 00:32:56:03
Michael
The magazines just kind of didn't have.
00:32:56:03 - 00:32:56:29
Michael
A.
00:32:57:02 - 00:32:57:14
Michael
In their.
00:32:57:14 - 00:32:57:29
Michael
Budgets.
00:32:57:29 - 00:32:58:24
Michael
They never found a.
00:32:58:24 - 00:33:01:05
Michael
Place or a way to.
00:33:01:08 - 00:33:02:29
Michael
Pay all that much for online content.
00:33:02:29 - 00:33:06:09
Michael
Which is feels ridiculous.
00:33:06:14 - 00:33:07:18
Michael
Saying it out loud.
00:33:08:23 - 00:33:40:18
Kyle
Yeah. So so what is like what is the revenue source for these publications, especially now in this age where we're, like, traversing into more digital, you know, people expect everything for free. We consume so much free content. Like, how are these these, journals and how are these magazines and how are these media companies handling that, that kind of transition from the, you know, the typical business model in the past of just like, here's a magazine, you pay for the magazine if you want to read the article, you pay for it like so.
00:33:40:20 - 00:33:47:05
Kyle
Do you understand the kind of like transition that these, these media companies went through? Yeah.
00:33:47:05 - 00:33:49:16
Michael
what really, you.
00:33:49:16 - 00:33:53:16
Michael
Know, force or the.
00:33:53:18 - 00:34:02:27
Michael
The ultimate reckoning that has largely happened maybe still happening in some ways, with print media. Print.
00:34:03:02 - 00:34:03:20
Michael
Historically.
00:34:03:20 - 00:34:04:29
Michael
Right. It wasn't even like.
00:34:05:01 - 00:34:07:26
Michael
They were, were.
00:34:07:28 - 00:34:08:21
Michael
Publications with.
00:34:08:21 - 00:34:11:22
Michael
Huge circulation, huge subscriber.
00:34:11:24 - 00:34:12:13
Michael
Numbers.
00:34:12:13 - 00:34:12:29
Michael
That.
00:34:13:01 - 00:34:14:07
Michael
Were getting a huge.
00:34:14:09 - 00:34:15:00
Michael
Large percentage.
00:34:15:00 - 00:34:20:28
Michael
Of their revenue from subscriptions. But the climbing magazines in the 2000s, right, like their main.
00:34:20:28 - 00:34:21:16
Michael
Sources of.
00:34:21:16 - 00:34:22:08
Michael
Revenue.
00:34:22:10 - 00:34:23:22
Michael
Were advertising was.
00:34:23:22 - 00:34:25:22
Michael
It wasn't,
00:34:25:25 - 00:34:26:14
Michael
Subscriber.
00:34:26:14 - 00:34:30:16
Michael
Revenue. And so then with the internet,
00:34:30:19 - 00:34:31:00
Michael
Any.
00:34:31:03 - 00:34:35:27
Michael
You know, advertisers can reach more eyes. It's, you know, selling banner ads and.
00:34:36:00 - 00:34:36:12
Michael
Digital.
00:34:36:12 - 00:34:43:17
Michael
Ads and social media ads and then still, you know, just using that, you.
00:34:43:17 - 00:34:43:22
Michael
Know.
00:34:43:27 - 00:34:44:16
Michael
Selling print.
00:34:44:16 - 00:34:44:22
Michael
Ads
00:34:46:04 - 00:35:00:29
Kyle
Would you wouldn't you argue that, like, with all the extra real estate, that that revenue would go up with digital spend? Or is it just the cost is lower? And then you have got, like.
00:35:00:29 - 00:35:02:25
Michael
spend it on digital and.
00:35:02:27 - 00:35:04:11
Michael
We still have to pay for.
00:35:04:11 - 00:35:04:25
Michael
Print out of.
00:35:04:25 - 00:35:05:24
Michael
That. So you start.
00:35:05:24 - 00:35:13:05
Michael
Bundling things like, well, I mean this is before my time, right? Like I was never, kind of knew the business side.
00:35:13:08 - 00:35:14:21
Michael
At this at that.
00:35:14:21 - 00:35:18:11
Michael
Time. But I think that's.
00:35:18:15 - 00:35:19:08
Michael
Largely how it.
00:35:19:08 - 00:35:19:17
Michael
Worked.
00:35:19:17 - 00:35:20:18
Michael
And so.
00:35:20:25 - 00:35:23:20
Kyle
like.
00:35:23:23 - 00:35:24:29
Kyle
Content.
00:35:25:01 - 00:35:30:02
Kyle
That costs money to generate. Yeah.
00:35:30:02 - 00:35:31:24
Michael
magazine.
00:35:31:27 - 00:35:32:17
Michael
But it just.
00:35:32:17 - 00:35:34:17
Michael
And then print. Right. You have.
00:35:34:17 - 00:35:35:13
Michael
Fewer people.
00:35:35:13 - 00:35:36:08
Michael
Paying for print.
00:35:36:08 - 00:35:38:05
Michael
So
00:35:38:07 - 00:35:39:17
Michael
Or just interest in print.
00:35:39:17 - 00:35:45:13
Michael
So, I think basically those old.
00:35:45:13 - 00:35:49:00
Michael
Magazine models, they just kind of failed.
00:35:49:00 - 00:35:50:13
Michael
To adapt to.
00:35:50:13 - 00:35:51:22
Michael
A changing.
00:35:51:24 - 00:35:54:15
Michael
Media ecosystem.
00:35:54:18 - 00:35:55:14
Michael
Not necessarily through.
00:35:55:14 - 00:35:56:16
Michael
Any fault of their own.
00:35:56:16 - 00:36:01:22
Kyle
what would be the way that a company would adapt to the changing ecosystem. Like what's the new model.
00:36:01:22 - 00:36:05:11
Michael
there are a few, right? There's the like the, the.
00:36:05:14 - 00:36:08:10
Michael
Most impressive,
00:36:08:13 - 00:36:09:24
Michael
Success story.
00:36:09:26 - 00:36:11:28
Michael
The New York Times, you know, mainstream.
00:36:11:28 - 00:36:15:24
Michael
They have a,
00:36:15:27 - 00:36:19:00
Michael
Subscription service. Most people do not get print anymore, but they.
00:36:19:00 - 00:36:19:08
Michael
Have a.
00:36:19:08 - 00:36:20:00
Michael
Subscription.
00:36:20:03 - 00:36:21:16
Michael
Paywall service.
00:36:21:19 - 00:36:22:02
Michael
Where unless.
00:36:22:02 - 00:36:24:21
Michael
You pay for a subscription.
00:36:24:21 - 00:36:29:06
Michael
You can't access your content. And I don't know how many subscribers.
00:36:29:06 - 00:36:30:01
Michael
They have, but.
00:36:30:03 - 00:36:31:13
Michael
It's a good number and they.
00:36:31:16 - 00:36:33:18
Michael
They do really well.
00:36:33:21 - 00:36:36:06
Michael
And,
00:36:36:08 - 00:36:39:20
Michael
They have the, a robust.
00:36:39:20 - 00:36:43:15
Michael
Enough content system that it makes it worth it and can.
00:36:43:15 - 00:36:45:21
Michael
Support it. The, the opposite.
00:36:45:23 - 00:36:47:04
Michael
Scenario would be like something like.
00:36:47:04 - 00:36:47:29
Michael
Outside. Right.
00:36:48:27 - 00:36:49:12
Michael
Where the.
00:36:49:14 - 00:36:50:24
Michael
Kind of doing the same thing but.
00:36:50:24 - 00:36:51:11
Michael
Just.
00:36:51:13 - 00:36:52:06
Michael
Not great content.
00:36:52:21 - 00:37:11:02
Kyle
Well, I think that's like, you know, if I think that that brings up the question of, like, you know, how what kind of value you offering for a subscription, right, with especially with the climbing world, it's like we have so much media in front of us with social media for free, like, and and I would say a lot of it is video content.
00:37:11:02 - 00:37:13:16
Kyle
And it's almost to a point where it's like.
00:37:15:02 - 00:37:41:19
Kyle
You can't watch it all. And it's also really it's really compelling. It's really compelling. You've got Jimmy Chin shooting cinematic films like you know, so, so, what is like this, this value that these, these companies are trying to, to, to produce, like is is the art of long form content dying in the climbing world. Like, is it one of those things that the pendulum is swinging and we're kind of experiencing this transition?
00:37:41:19 - 00:37:43:24
Michael
think, the analogy.
00:37:43:24 - 00:37:45:10
Michael
I like to use, like, with the web.
00:37:45:10 - 00:37:46:21
Michael
And print trade, is.
00:37:46:22 - 00:37:50:12
Michael
That, like, with, with.
00:37:50:14 - 00:37:52:13
Michael
All the climbing content out there on the.
00:37:52:13 - 00:37:55:18
Michael
Web, right? It's like drinking from a firehose. There's just so.
00:37:55:21 - 00:37:56:08
Michael
Much.
00:37:56:08 - 00:37:56:19
Michael
Like.
00:37:56:25 - 00:37:59:28
Michael
It's same as the video. It's limitless and so much.
00:37:59:28 - 00:38:02:07
Michael
Of it is just.
00:38:02:10 - 00:38:03:15
Michael
Not great.
00:38:03:17 - 00:38:04:22
Michael
It's just like there's.
00:38:04:22 - 00:38:05:21
Michael
Plenty of good news.
00:38:05:21 - 00:38:07:18
Michael
Out there. Good, good.
00:38:07:21 - 00:38:08:15
Michael
News journalism.
00:38:08:20 - 00:38:09:07
Michael
But a lot of.
00:38:09:07 - 00:38:16:07
Michael
It is just, you know, repurposed social media captions, basically. And it's social media embedded.
00:38:16:07 - 00:38:17:27
Michael
It's just like, what? Who who cares?
00:38:17:27 - 00:38:19:13
Michael
You know, if you're on social media.
00:38:19:15 - 00:38:23:27
Michael
Great. That that gets that for you. But hey, so we.
00:38:23:27 - 00:38:25:10
Michael
Had read the New York Times and.
00:38:25:10 - 00:38:28:07
Michael
Outside the big, paywall.
00:38:28:07 - 00:38:30:00
Michael
Systems were on hand. But then there.
00:38:30:00 - 00:38:30:07
Michael
Is.
00:38:30:07 - 00:38:35:20
Michael
Still, I think, basically what I'm doing, I've been doing a summit journal following.
00:38:35:20 - 00:38:37:06
Michael
The lead of a few.
00:38:37:06 - 00:38:43:24
Michael
Other small magazines, is doubling down on print, doing only print. And.
00:38:43:24 - 00:38:45:05
Michael
Really.
00:38:45:07 - 00:38:47:19
Michael
Focused focusing on, a.
00:38:47:19 - 00:38:48:12
Michael
Curated.
00:38:48:12 - 00:38:49:13
Michael
Journalism experience.
00:38:49:13 - 00:38:49:19
Michael
Right.
00:38:49:19 - 00:38:53:01
Michael
So rather than just a ton of shit and needing more and more.
00:38:53:01 - 00:38:54:18
Michael
And more, it's.
00:38:54:20 - 00:38:55:28
Michael
Being very intentional.
00:38:55:28 - 00:38:57:00
Michael
About the stories we tell.
00:38:57:00 - 00:38:59:02
Michael
And devoting.
00:38:59:04 - 00:38:59:12
Michael
Very.
00:38:59:17 - 00:39:03:04
Michael
It's a small pie rather than giving it up.
00:39:04:17 - 00:39:07:08
Michael
Ever more,
00:39:07:11 - 00:39:08:21
Michael
Just using.
00:39:08:21 - 00:39:11:19
Michael
It much more sparingly and paying the people.
00:39:11:26 - 00:39:13:15
Michael
Who take the photos.
00:39:13:15 - 00:39:14:03
Michael
And.
00:39:14:05 - 00:39:15:02
Michael
Write the pieces.
00:39:15:02 - 00:39:16:25
Michael
That much more so they can spend more time on it and.
00:39:16:25 - 00:39:17:13
Michael
Create.
00:39:19:24 - 00:39:27:03
Kyle
Is there, sense of exclusivity? Like, is there a way to make sure that these stories don't exist anywhere else?
00:39:27:03 - 00:39:28:17
Michael
I don't think so. And I don't know if.
00:39:28:17 - 00:39:30:22
Michael
That's the.
00:39:30:25 - 00:39:31:16
Michael
If that matters.
00:39:31:16 - 00:39:32:08
Michael
Exactly. Right.
00:39:32:08 - 00:39:42:27
Michael
Like I with summit Journal. I try not to think about it in terms of a news cycle. Right? Like I'm never going to be the first one out there.
00:39:42:27 - 00:39:47:22
Michael
With a story I published twice a year. And so every six months.
00:39:47:22 - 00:39:49:13
Michael
So, I.
00:39:49:13 - 00:39:54:20
Michael
Don't have the luxury of of trying to tell the hot story.
00:39:54:20 - 00:39:55:08
Michael
Or the new.
00:39:55:08 - 00:39:56:08
Michael
Story.
00:39:56:11 - 00:39:56:27
Michael
I'm looking.
00:39:56:27 - 00:40:02:28
Michael
For the the story that is going to last, though, the story that.
00:40:04:13 - 00:40:06:26
Michael
We will think about a year later or that has this.
00:40:06:26 - 00:40:09:26
Michael
Evergreen potential, you know, the.
00:40:09:28 - 00:40:11:04
Michael
It's.
00:40:11:06 - 00:40:13:29
Michael
That when we're always swiping.
00:40:13:29 - 00:40:16:24
Michael
In refreshing pages, right. It can.
00:40:16:24 - 00:40:17:04
Michael
Seem.
00:40:17:04 - 00:40:18:10
Michael
Like, particularly.
00:40:18:10 - 00:40:20:29
Michael
In journalism and in climbing journalism, that.
00:40:20:29 - 00:40:22:25
Michael
Like, you got to be first.
00:40:22:25 - 00:40:24:29
Michael
You got to not you got you got to know.
00:40:24:29 - 00:40:25:19
Michael
What what's.
00:40:25:19 - 00:40:27:26
Michael
Happening. But,
00:40:27:28 - 00:40:29:16
Michael
It, it pays, I.
00:40:29:16 - 00:40:31:12
Michael
Think, dividends to slow down to and think.
00:40:33:20 - 00:40:58:26
Kyle
Well, yeah, I think that there comes at a cost. Right? Like, if you're going for the wildfire approach and you're just trying to get something out quick, you're essentially just trying to throw a headline out there that someone might click. And from what I've seen, a lot of the times when I do click these kind of like wildfire headlines, the article is like a paragraph long, and it's like the same exact paragraph that I can read on five different articles.
00:40:58:29 - 00:41:20:10
Kyle
And it's like, why? Why is this even made? They like, this article is clickbait. And then there's nothing in it. It's like, okay, sure, you got me here. Great. Amazing. Good job. And I think that, yeah, there's a difference between the two styles of journalism. And I think that, something that happened recently when, Tanner Harnish and Michael Vail did the, the, quad fathers.
00:41:20:10 - 00:41:44:18
Kyle
They did they, they did the story. And I forget which publication it was. I think it was outside magazine. Or it was a climbing and it was one of the two. I'm sorry. Oh, they are the same. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, like they posted something about, you know, the them, you know, doing the, the speed record on the triple and how Alex Honnold was coming out to, to beat them or whatever.
00:41:44:18 - 00:42:01:04
Kyle
And like there is no real truth to it. And they were just using Alex Hollands name for publicity and like it's it put a bad taste in their mouth and the community's mouth would just like to do some fucking journalism. Like, you know, you're just you're just trying to get this headline and throw Alex Honnold name in it so that it gets clicked more.
00:42:01:04 - 00:42:03:23
Kyle
It's like this just bad taste.
00:42:03:23 - 00:42:08:15
Michael
And, I mean, I remember doing the exact same kind of thing. I remember writing a.
00:42:08:18 - 00:42:09:07
Michael
Piece for.
00:42:09:07 - 00:42:09:25
Michael
Iraq and I guess.
00:42:09:25 - 00:42:11:07
Michael
About because I also.
00:42:11:10 - 00:42:14:26
Michael
When I worked at recognized it hadn't yet recognized some climbing.
00:42:14:28 - 00:42:18:10
Michael
But for those who don't know, were both bought by.
00:42:18:12 - 00:42:21:17
Michael
The company that is now outside and they were merged. Recognize no longer.
00:42:21:17 - 00:42:23:04
Michael
Exists.
00:42:23:06 - 00:42:28:15
Michael
But when I worked at recognize, recognize and climbing were separate publications. And so.
00:42:28:15 - 00:42:28:28
Michael
It was kind.
00:42:28:28 - 00:42:30:22
Michael
Of fun. I was, I was.
00:42:30:25 - 00:42:31:26
Michael
Just like, we got to.
00:42:31:26 - 00:42:32:26
Michael
Be climbing. We want.
00:42:32:26 - 00:42:34:24
Michael
To we want to, you know.
00:42:34:26 - 00:42:36:29
Michael
Make a meet it. So and the.
00:42:36:29 - 00:42:39:28
Michael
Guy who I who's opposite of.
00:42:40:01 - 00:42:43:20
Michael
Who's my role? A climbing guy, Kevin Corrigan, he's now a good friend.
00:42:43:20 - 00:42:46:22
Michael
But I was always psyched or it would be when we beat.
00:42:46:29 - 00:42:49:11
Michael
Kevin or and climbing or did something.
00:42:49:13 - 00:42:50:05
Michael
That got.
00:42:50:05 - 00:42:53:24
Michael
Much more attention. So I remember writing something about.
00:42:53:27 - 00:42:54:13
Michael
Who was.
00:42:54:13 - 00:42:58:10
Michael
It? Someone who did something in Red rocks. And I basically interviewed Alex.
00:42:58:10 - 00:42:58:19
Michael
Honnold.
00:42:58:19 - 00:42:59:14
Michael
About it, and I.
00:42:59:20 - 00:43:00:07
Michael
Put his.
00:43:00:07 - 00:43:01:08
Michael
Name in the headline.
00:43:01:09 - 00:43:02:24
Michael
Something is is the exact.
00:43:02:24 - 00:43:03:08
Michael
Same thing that.
00:43:03:13 - 00:43:03:23
Michael
They
00:43:05:12 - 00:43:07:17
Kyle
I'm sure it's hard to avoid.
00:43:07:20 - 00:43:08:13
Kyle
Yeah,
00:43:08:13 - 00:43:10:26
Michael
shitty. And it's just like, it's it's like, why are we doing.
00:43:10:26 - 00:43:11:11
Michael
This at the end of the.
00:43:11:11 - 00:43:13:07
Michael
Day?
00:43:13:09 - 00:43:13:22
Michael
But.
00:43:13:24 - 00:43:14:04
Michael
Yeah.
00:43:14:04 - 00:43:18:28
Michael
So on the opposite, on the spectrum for the next issue of Summit Journal.
00:43:19:01 - 00:43:23:12
Michael
I have a big profiles by the biggest, mosaic, who is, but this.
00:43:23:14 - 00:43:27:18
Michael
This climber in Europe. And I sent this, this journalist over there and spent.
00:43:27:25 - 00:43:28:06
Michael
A couple of.
00:43:28:06 - 00:43:33:01
Michael
Weeks with them, climbing in the mountains, spending time with his family. We had.
00:43:33:01 - 00:43:33:17
Michael
A photographer.
00:43:33:17 - 00:43:37:28
Michael
Go spend time with them. So it's like, you know.
00:43:39:14 - 00:43:41:20
Kyle
Can't beat that.
00:43:41:22 - 00:43:43:04
Kyle
Yeah, I have
00:43:43:04 - 00:43:45:07
Michael
it yet. This guy files it with me.
00:43:45:07 - 00:43:45:27
Michael
Sends the first draft.
00:43:45:27 - 00:43:48:08
Kyle
Cool. That's exciting.
00:43:48:10 - 00:43:50:27
Kyle
Yeah.
00:43:50:29 - 00:44:31:07
Kyle
To what extent do you feel that consumer behaviors shape climbing journalism versus the other way around? Like, do you understand that question? Like our our, no, no, like our our reactions as the mass consumers in terms of, like, what gets clicked more, what gets, you know, how much traffic can I drive to this page, like our behaviors as consumers, do you feel like that has drived a lot of the change in climbing towards short form, headline driven content versus this long form, more artful content like are we as the consumers?
00:44:31:07 - 00:44:36:25
Kyle
The issue is our behaviors, the issue of in terms of getting addicted to short form content.
00:44:36:25 - 00:44:38:21
Michael
One hand, yes. And it's not.
00:44:38:21 - 00:44:39:06
Michael
Exclusive to.
00:44:39:06 - 00:44:39:18
Michael
Climbing.
00:44:39:18 - 00:44:41:13
Michael
Right. It's like it's the BuzzFeed.
00:44:41:13 - 00:44:42:04
Michael
Ification.
00:44:42:04 - 00:44:42:21
Michael
Of.
00:44:42:24 - 00:44:43:23
Michael
News and.
00:44:43:23 - 00:44:44:29
Michael
Media like BuzzFeed.
00:44:44:29 - 00:44:45:28
Michael
You know.
00:44:46:01 - 00:44:46:27
Michael
Cracked the code.
00:44:46:27 - 00:44:47:26
Michael
And.
00:44:47:28 - 00:44:48:28
Michael
Started offering.
00:44:48:28 - 00:44:49:14
Michael
Everyone.
00:44:49:22 - 00:44:55:23
Michael
Cat, kitten, you know, quizzes or whatever the fuck they did then.
00:44:55:25 - 00:45:01:09
Michael
And then had a new site, but, you know, just had better and better algorithms and.
00:45:01:12 - 00:45:04:13
Michael
Had headline workshopping.
00:45:04:13 - 00:45:05:07
Michael
And outside.
00:45:05:07 - 00:45:05:19
Michael
Has just.
00:45:05:19 - 00:45:08:12
Michael
Leaned into that. So on the one hand,
00:45:08:14 - 00:45:11:10
Michael
Yes, the, the it's a positive feedback loop.
00:45:11:14 - 00:45:14:15
Michael
But on the other hand, I remember, I.
00:45:14:15 - 00:45:15:10
Michael
Wrote.
00:45:15:13 - 00:45:18:03
Michael
Like, I know,
00:45:18:06 - 00:45:22:03
Michael
A piece that I wrote for outside,
00:45:22:05 - 00:45:25:00
Michael
And it went online. It was a long feature.
00:45:25:00 - 00:45:27:23
Michael
About a, free soloist who died.
00:45:27:25 - 00:45:28:12
Michael
And Austin.
00:45:28:12 - 00:45:28:22
Michael
Howell.
00:45:29:00 - 00:45:29:13
Michael
And I know.
00:45:29:13 - 00:45:30:00
Michael
For a fact that.
00:45:30:00 - 00:45:31:01
Michael
It was, you know, one of their.
00:45:31:01 - 00:45:31:09
Michael
Best.
00:45:31:09 - 00:45:32:10
Michael
Performing.
00:45:32:12 - 00:45:35:10
Michael
Pieces. And obviously, it's.
00:45:35:12 - 00:45:36:27
Michael
Kind of a sensational.
00:45:37:04 - 00:45:37:24
Michael
Topic.
00:45:37:24 - 00:45:39:14
Michael
So, you know.
00:45:39:29 - 00:45:41:15
Michael
When I,
00:45:41:15 - 00:45:42:09
Michael
rule of.
00:45:42:09 - 00:45:42:25
Michael
Thumb.
00:45:42:25 - 00:45:43:16
Michael
For.
00:45:43:19 - 00:45:47:24
Michael
Climbing online climbing news.
00:45:47:27 - 00:45:48:07
Michael
People.
00:45:48:07 - 00:45:51:07
Michael
Dying and people free soloing always,
00:45:51:09 - 00:45:53:23
Michael
Get high readership.
00:45:53:26 - 00:45:56:11
Michael
So when you combine them, it was it was bound to have high readership.
00:45:57:02 - 00:45:57:28
Michael
But it was.
00:45:58:01 - 00:45:59:10
Michael
But again, it was a long form.
00:45:59:10 - 00:46:00:15
Michael
Piece. It was six.
00:46:00:15 - 00:46:02:23
Michael
Thousand words or something. And I know it did really well.
00:46:02:23 - 00:46:04:17
Michael
So I.
00:46:04:20 - 00:46:05:12
Michael
I think there's.
00:46:05:12 - 00:46:07:12
Michael
Also just.
00:46:08:27 - 00:46:12:14
Michael
The media side. Right. Various outlets, there's.
00:46:14:02 - 00:46:16:04
Michael
It just takes more effort to do the longer stuff.
00:46:16:04 - 00:46:18:11
Michael
So sometimes they just.
00:46:18:11 - 00:46:18:23
Michael
Don't do it.
00:46:18:23 - 00:46:19:24
Michael
Well, even if audiences.
00:46:19:24 - 00:46:21:06
Michael
Do like it.
00:46:23:10 - 00:46:45:23
Kyle
Yeah. It's, it's, it is tricky. And it's like, we're going to consume it regardless, right? It's like, the person is almost incentivized to just, like, crank out the easy stuff and get the same response in a way. But there's like this I'm sure there's probably this, like, long term deficit that you start to experience with this, like short form stuff.
00:46:45:25 - 00:47:02:26
Kyle
It's like the the long form real true stories where you actually tell a real story that people can connect with or something that you're going to have, you know, retained value over time.
00:47:02:26 - 00:47:30:18
Kyle
Let's be real for a second. The current blueprint for a successful climbing podcast is simple. Interview the best climbers in the world. Big names mean big followings. Lots of SEO power and a built in audience that helps boost every episode. But this show, this show has never been about that. From the beginning, I have made it my mission to bring you stories from the climbing majority, the climbers who don't live in the limelight, the ones who avoid interviews, quietly put up roots and give back in ways that are rarely recognized.
00:47:30:22 - 00:47:47:11
Kyle
And while that's what makes this show special, it also means we have an uphill battle when it comes to growth. And that is where you come in. If you're psyched about the show, if you've been inspired, entertained, or fired up about an episode. Word of mouth is the single most important way you can help the show. Share an episode with a friend.
00:47:47:15 - 00:48:04:29
Kyle
Play one on a group road trip. Post about the show on social media. Jump onto Reddit threads and Mountain Project forums and share with people what you've been listening to. Be sure to tag the show, tag your favorite guests, and spread the word. And if you want to help even more, I'm currently sending posters to climbing gyms around the country.
00:48:05:03 - 00:48:18:15
Kyle
If you'd like to support one in your climbing gym, be sure to reach out. Email me at the Climbing Majority podcast at gmail.com and I will be sure to send you one. Let's band together and show the climbing community that the climbing majority has a voice.
00:48:19:07 - 00:48:27:19
Kyle
So in your your experience in rock and ice, in terms of kind of bringing this back to this trajectory, how long were you there?
00:48:28:09 - 00:48:29:08
Michael
So after.
00:48:29:08 - 00:48:30:18
Michael
I did an internship, I.
00:48:30:18 - 00:48:31:11
Michael
Was.
00:48:32:10 - 00:48:35:02
Michael
I lived in Boulder for a year. Really?
00:48:35:02 - 00:48:37:07
Michael
Just scrounging by trying to make ends meet.
00:48:37:07 - 00:48:38:14
Michael
So I was, like.
00:48:38:16 - 00:48:41:05
Michael
Doing some freelance writing and editing for.
00:48:41:05 - 00:48:42:16
Michael
Some various.
00:48:42:19 - 00:48:43:19
Michael
Publications that.
00:48:43:19 - 00:48:49:11
Michael
People hadn't heard of, as well as some local papers like Boulder Weekly.
00:48:49:13 - 00:48:51:28
Michael
And.
00:48:52:01 - 00:48:53:09
Michael
Also, you know.
00:48:53:11 - 00:48:56:14
Michael
Pulling shots of espresso on the side and that sort of thing.
00:48:56:16 - 00:48:57:28
Michael
So I worked.
00:48:58:01 - 00:49:00:07
Michael
I worked construction with a friend for a couple days,
00:49:09:07 - 00:49:11:01
Michael
so at, in.
00:49:11:04 - 00:49:12:28
Michael
The.
00:49:13:01 - 00:49:23:17
Michael
Early sometime 2017, position opened up by Rock and ice and, I was lucky enough that they were willing to take me back. So I joined the.
00:49:23:17 - 00:49:25:00
Michael
Editorial staff there.
00:49:25:00 - 00:49:30:00
Michael
Another thing. It's kind of funny still today.
00:49:30:00 - 00:49:31:27
Michael
But definitely back then, I.
00:49:31:27 - 00:49:33:14
Michael
Think a lot of people thought that these.
00:49:33:18 - 00:49:34:15
Michael
Magazines were.
00:49:34:21 - 00:49:37:28
Michael
Kind of these huge behemoths with big stars or whatever.
00:49:37:28 - 00:49:39:28
Michael
It was. You know, I joined.
00:49:39:28 - 00:49:42:00
Michael
An editorial staff of, you know, three other people.
00:49:42:00 - 00:49:48:28
Michael
Or something. We're all great friends. But they're small, lean operations.
00:49:49:02 - 00:49:49:16
Michael
So, yeah.
00:49:49:19 - 00:49:56:02
Michael
In 2017, I moved back to Carbondale. And,
00:49:56:05 - 00:49:59:21
Michael
I was there until.
00:49:59:24 - 00:50:01:07
Michael
2020.
00:50:01:07 - 00:50:01:16
Michael
One.
00:50:03:20 - 00:50:04:27
Kyle
Okay.
00:50:04:29 - 00:50:22:12
Kyle
And and the operation of of being an editor at that, at that location, like our journalists pitching stories to you, and you're reviewing the stories and choosing what goes into these, these online and, and publicized magazines. Like, that's how that system works.
00:50:22:14 - 00:50:26:00
Kyle
Yeah. It be great.
00:50:26:00 - 00:50:29:17
Michael
writers or just Joe Schmo, who has a story idea.
00:50:29:17 - 00:50:33:16
Michael
Or wants to report on this, saying, like.
00:50:33:19 - 00:50:34:22
Michael
Do you guys.
00:50:34:25 - 00:50:40:06
Michael
Are you interested in this story? Photographers doing the same thing and.
00:50:40:08 - 00:50:42:13
Michael
Us.
00:50:42:15 - 00:50:43:25
Michael
Assigning.
00:50:43:28 - 00:50:50:16
Michael
Story ideas we have or just obvious stories to writers that we have worked with before.
00:50:50:16 - 00:50:51:06
Michael
And or.
00:50:51:06 - 00:50:51:21
Michael
Professional.
00:50:51:21 - 00:50:52:19
Michael
Writers that we know are really.
00:50:52:19 - 00:50:53:14
Michael
Good.
00:50:53:16 - 00:50:57:07
Michael
So it's kind of a mix of that, so.
00:50:58:18 - 00:50:59:16
Michael
Yeah, I've met a lot.
00:50:59:16 - 00:51:00:08
Michael
Of really great.
00:51:00:12 - 00:51:03:06
Michael
Writers I didn't know before. And many of them I still.
00:51:03:06 - 00:51:04:08
Michael
Work with today.
00:51:04:08 - 00:51:06:03
Michael
One of my interns.
00:51:06:05 - 00:51:07:11
Michael
So because we had, we had.
00:51:07:11 - 00:51:14:04
Michael
And there was an intern at the office. Two I would mainly work with,
00:51:14:07 - 00:51:16:24
Michael
Every, every few months. So with the role that I.
00:51:16:24 - 00:51:19:01
Michael
Had, one of the my interns.
00:51:19:01 - 00:51:19:14
Michael
Is this.
00:51:19:14 - 00:51:21:17
Michael
Writer, Owen Clark. He's now.
00:51:21:20 - 00:51:24:22
Michael
He's prolific. He writes everywhere. If you read.
00:51:24:24 - 00:51:28:29
Michael
Climbing news online or in print, you've you've seen his name shortly and he.
00:51:28:29 - 00:51:31:23
Michael
Writes some really, really great stuff for me still to this day.
00:51:34:04 - 00:51:35:12
Kyle
Hello.
00:51:35:15 - 00:51:48:25
Kyle
If, if, like, a photographer is reaching out to you, it's not really a story there, right? It's just like I've got some pictures. Like how? How does that work? How does a pitch from a photographer work?
00:51:48:25 - 00:51:54:17
Michael
Photography, right. Like, it's it's just awesome to see, right? I could photos like.
00:51:54:20 - 00:51:55:18
Michael
Jim Thornburg.
00:51:55:18 - 00:51:56:06
Michael
Or.
00:51:56:08 - 00:51:57:06
Michael
Jimmy Chin or.
00:51:57:06 - 00:52:01:07
Michael
To whatever. If you crack open.
00:52:01:11 - 00:52:06:02
Michael
Climbing magazines in the 90s or 2000 or Summit Journal today, there's inevitably going to be photo.
00:52:06:02 - 00:52:07:28
Michael
Essays that are pretty.
00:52:08:00 - 00:52:11:01
Michael
Pretty, thin on.
00:52:11:01 - 00:52:11:27
Michael
Story.
00:52:11:27 - 00:52:12:20
Michael
And.
00:52:12:23 - 00:52:13:17
Michael
Text, but.
00:52:13:17 - 00:52:14:18
Michael
Heavy on photos.
00:52:14:18 - 00:52:15:19
Michael
Right? Because it's just like, it's
00:52:15:19 - 00:52:18:14
Kyle
just sick. Yeah.
00:52:18:14 - 00:52:18:28
Michael
they're going to.
00:52:19:03 - 00:52:22:01
Michael
Pitch destination profiles.
00:52:22:01 - 00:52:22:25
Michael
You know, so it's.
00:52:22:26 - 00:52:25:08
Michael
Just like a lot of beautiful route.
00:52:25:08 - 00:52:26:17
Michael
Photos and.
00:52:26:19 - 00:52:27:19
Michael
Maybe.
00:52:28:22 - 00:52:32:14
Michael
Scenic beater photos, whatever.
00:52:32:17 - 00:52:34:11
Michael
But yeah, I think there's.
00:52:34:11 - 00:52:35:20
Michael
A lot of.
00:52:39:17 - 00:52:40:25
Michael
Types of journalism that.
00:52:40:28 - 00:52:41:27
Michael
You know.
00:52:41:29 - 00:52:42:20
Michael
The photography.
00:52:42:20 - 00:52:44:00
Michael
Just isn't nearly.
00:52:44:00 - 00:52:44:16
Michael
As.
00:52:46:20 - 00:52:49:08
Michael
Beautiful and epic. Right? So, but with.
00:52:49:08 - 00:52:50:26
Michael
Climbing, it's just a no brainer. Of course.
00:52:50:26 - 00:52:54:05
Michael
You want to pair it with with the killer photos. It's why we all do it. When
00:52:55:12 - 00:53:01:11
Kyle
For sure. Yeah, I'd say the the sweet spot obviously to have a story with, with correlating pictures that that go with it.
00:53:01:19 - 00:53:04:05
Michael
Agreed? Agreed.
00:53:04:05 - 00:53:09:15
Kyle
So, and how sorry I, I think might have answered. It's quite a how long were you at rock nice.
00:53:09:15 - 00:53:10:06
Michael
until.
00:53:11:17 - 00:53:12:28
Michael
2021.
00:53:12:28 - 00:53:14:09
Michael
But this last.
00:53:14:11 - 00:53:15:00
Michael
Six months of.
00:53:15:00 - 00:53:17:07
Michael
That or so, I was it was technically.
00:53:17:08 - 00:53:17:24
Michael
Climbing.
00:53:17:24 - 00:53:19:08
Michael
Magazine because the two.
00:53:19:11 - 00:53:24:10
Kyle
They merged while you were there. What was that process like?
00:53:24:13 - 00:53:25:03
Kyle
Had
00:53:25:03 - 00:53:30:00
Michael
from being this tiny, independent, publication in Carbondale.
00:53:30:03 - 00:53:30:26
Michael
To.
00:53:30:29 - 00:53:31:20
Michael
Being part.
00:53:31:20 - 00:53:34:23
Michael
Of a.
00:53:34:26 - 00:53:38:13
Michael
Startup type company with, you know, 20.
00:53:38:14 - 00:53:39:11
Michael
Plus titles.
00:53:39:11 - 00:53:44:08
Michael
Or something. It was fun. I was suddenly then I was working Kevin Corrigan, the guy I mentioned earlier.
00:53:44:08 - 00:53:44:23
Michael
Who used to work.
00:53:44:23 - 00:53:46:16
Michael
At climbing. We were suddenly.
00:53:46:16 - 00:53:47:02
Michael
Coworkers.
00:53:47:02 - 00:53:50:27
Michael
Now, so we were on the same team. So I can no longer try to beat him to the.
00:53:50:29 - 00:53:53:01
Michael
You know, get the story out first.
00:53:56:01 - 00:53:56:14
Michael
Yeah. It was.
00:53:56:14 - 00:53:58:07
Michael
Just kind of a strange.
00:53:58:10 - 00:53:59:10
Michael
Situation. I was probably.
00:53:59:10 - 00:54:02:17
Michael
Already on my way out, looking to do something a little bit different.
00:54:02:17 - 00:54:03:07
Michael
But that.
00:54:03:09 - 00:54:03:29
Michael
Hastened my.
00:54:03:29 - 00:54:04:13
Michael
Departure.
00:54:04:13 - 00:54:05:27
Michael
Just became a little less fun.
00:54:06:11 - 00:54:09:17
Kyle
Why were you looking for a way out even before the merger?
00:54:10:08 - 00:54:10:28
Michael
All right, I said.
00:54:10:28 - 00:54:13:11
Michael
It's a small operation. These these magazines. It's not a.
00:54:13:11 - 00:54:16:22
Michael
Lot of opportunity for upward mobility.
00:54:16:24 - 00:54:17:00
Michael
So.
00:54:17:00 - 00:54:23:29
Michael
I wanted to try to, grow as a journalist. I wanted to try to write.
00:54:23:29 - 00:54:28:04
Michael
About things beyond climbing. I become really passionate about.
00:54:28:04 - 00:54:28:11
Michael
Just.
00:54:28:11 - 00:54:35:09
Michael
Journalism in general. And writing. And I figured there must be something in this world beyond climbing.
00:54:35:11 - 00:54:36:05
Michael
So.
00:54:36:05 - 00:54:37:02
Michael
I went to journalism.
00:54:37:02 - 00:54:38:20
Michael
School.
00:54:38:22 - 00:54:45:03
Michael
Which has pluses and minuses. I moved to New York City. I still mostly.
00:54:45:03 - 00:54:45:15
Michael
Wrote about.
00:54:45:15 - 00:54:47:11
Michael
Climbing through time.
00:54:47:13 - 00:54:50:09
Michael
But, I wrote a I wrote a few stories about other things.
00:54:51:11 - 00:55:06:27
Kyle
Was there an event that kind of like, made you second guess your passion for climbing? Was there, like, a a a scare or anything that kind of, like, forced you to pivot a little bit and be like, what else? What else is going on?
00:55:06:27 - 00:55:10:10
Michael
I mean, in, I was doing my own climbing while.
00:55:10:10 - 00:55:12:24
Michael
I was.
00:55:12:26 - 00:55:18:17
Michael
In at recognize, and gradually, you know, I.
00:55:18:19 - 00:55:19:05
Michael
Added a.
00:55:19:06 - 00:55:20:12
Michael
Climbing to the repertoire.
00:55:20:12 - 00:55:20:21
Michael
Before.
00:55:20:21 - 00:55:22:19
Michael
Doing the nose and.
00:55:22:21 - 00:55:23:08
Michael
I'd already.
00:55:23:08 - 00:55:27:05
Michael
Been an ice climber, would started to do more and more ice climbing and.
00:55:27:07 - 00:55:28:06
Michael
Started to become more.
00:55:28:06 - 00:55:31:07
Michael
And more interested in albinism. So one of the years I went.
00:55:31:07 - 00:55:33:24
Michael
To,
00:55:33:26 - 00:55:36:12
Michael
Mount Huntington in Alaska municipality.
00:55:36:13 - 00:55:37:27
Michael
Decided to try the West.
00:55:37:27 - 00:55:41:12
Michael
Face Couloir and that thing, and.
00:55:41:25 - 00:55:50:05
Kyle
Was it the same kind of tactics as nos? Just show up and fucking send it.
00:55:50:07 - 00:56:00:27
Kyle
Down. Okay.
00:56:01:00 - 00:56:05:03
Kyle
Oh, my God, they're stuck on two weeks because of weather.
00:56:05:03 - 00:56:06:18
Michael
Yeah. Just like we we.
00:56:06:18 - 00:56:09:15
Michael
Tried them a couple times, but,
00:56:09:17 - 00:56:15:23
Michael
Also just. Yeah, we did take a seat in a glacier where we are. They, they call it the.
00:56:15:23 - 00:56:16:05
Michael
Talking.
00:56:16:11 - 00:56:18:29
Michael
Glacier because the weather's just so bad.
00:56:18:29 - 00:56:21:24
Michael
And you end up getting snowed in.
00:56:21:24 - 00:56:23:01
Michael
But anyways, on that trip.
00:56:23:01 - 00:56:24:07
Michael
We.
00:56:24:09 - 00:56:24:25
Michael
We didn't make.
00:56:24:25 - 00:56:25:13
Michael
It very far.
00:56:25:13 - 00:56:26:07
Michael
Up the mountain, but we.
00:56:26:07 - 00:56:27:13
Michael
Did our best. We got caught.
00:56:27:13 - 00:56:33:09
Michael
In an avalanche one day, and that was kind of sobering.
00:56:33:09 - 00:56:37:25
Kyle
You say that kind of nonchalantly walk me through the details of that experience
00:56:38:10 - 00:56:42:10
Michael
We had, like, cache some gear at the base of the slope one day.
00:56:42:10 - 00:56:48:04
Michael
I mean, we were we were not with the guys who were just, you know, going from base camp, doing it in a day. We were going to do it in two days.
00:56:48:04 - 00:56:53:02
Michael
And we like packed out the, the approach.
00:56:53:04 - 00:56:54:06
Michael
One day and left a cache.
00:56:54:06 - 00:56:55:05
Michael
Of gear at the base.
00:56:55:08 - 00:56:56:11
Michael
And then the next day.
00:56:56:12 - 00:56:56:18
Michael
Or.
00:56:56:23 - 00:56:58:08
Michael
Something we went to actually.
00:56:58:14 - 00:57:01:23
Michael
You know, we got to our cache and like looked up, left as.
00:57:01:23 - 00:57:03:10
Michael
We were like racking up and there's.
00:57:03:10 - 00:57:04:09
Michael
Just a wall of snow coming.
00:57:04:10 - 00:57:06:25
Kyle
Holy shit.
00:57:07:01 - 00:57:07:21
Michael
Orange sled.
00:57:07:21 - 00:57:08:08
Michael
There like.
00:57:08:08 - 00:57:09:13
Michael
Duck behind it, but it.
00:57:09:15 - 00:57:10:09
Michael
Buried us basically.
00:57:10:09 - 00:57:13:02
Michael
Up to our armpits. And that was.
00:57:13:02 - 00:57:16:29
Michael
Very pretty terrifying.
00:57:17:01 - 00:57:24:22
Michael
And so I ended up writing some about that. And that was writing. I was never much of a personal essayist. They always tended to write.
00:57:24:22 - 00:57:25:29
Michael
About other folks.
00:57:25:29 - 00:57:26:10
Michael
And.
00:57:26:13 - 00:57:26:29
Michael
Other.
00:57:26:29 - 00:57:34:19
Michael
Things. And so, being forced to kind of, dig into the personal, was.
00:57:34:19 - 00:57:35:16
Michael
Both a good.
00:57:35:16 - 00:57:36:02
Michael
Experience.
00:57:36:02 - 00:57:37:11
Michael
But also.
00:57:38:12 - 00:57:40:00
Michael
You know, questions.
00:57:40:04 - 00:57:48:05
Michael
Do you reflect on, why you're doing what you're doing, what else you want to do?
00:57:48:05 - 00:57:55:01
Michael
And so I don't know if that was that's not a direct catalyst for why I left Rock and ice at all. But.
00:57:56:11 - 00:57:57:04
Michael
You know.
00:57:57:06 - 00:57:58:11
Michael
Realized there's a lot more to write.
00:57:58:11 - 00:57:58:27
Michael
About, too.
00:58:00:02 - 00:58:00:19
Michael
So,
00:58:01:05 - 00:58:07:00
Kyle
And you ultimately found yourself back into the climbing world.
00:58:09:11 - 00:58:13:04
Michael
At, at,
00:58:13:06 - 00:58:18:03
Michael
Journalism school, I ended up writing a bunch more about climbing. Like I.
00:58:18:03 - 00:58:21:05
Michael
Said, I got to write for some really cool places.
00:58:21:05 - 00:58:31:11
Michael
Like the New York Times and Sierra magazine. And, during that time.
00:58:31:13 - 00:58:33:24
Michael
Basically it was it.
00:58:33:24 - 00:58:35:09
Michael
Was fun trying to do other things, but.
00:58:35:09 - 00:58:37:19
Michael
I it clarified that I.
00:58:37:19 - 00:58:38:18
Michael
Did indeed.
00:58:38:18 - 00:58:40:06
Michael
Want to do the.
00:58:40:06 - 00:58:41:18
Michael
Climbing journalism thing.
00:58:41:20 - 00:58:42:00
Michael
I.
00:58:42:03 - 00:58:44:14
Michael
You know, tried the other thing.
00:58:44:17 - 00:58:46:01
Michael
I wanted to, but.
00:58:46:29 - 00:58:54:13
Kyle
What kind of spaces did you start to try to write like? And also, so the role of an editor and a journalist are separate, right?
00:58:54:26 - 00:58:56:01
Michael
Yes and no.
00:58:56:03 - 00:58:58:09
Michael
Journalist. Right. You're you're.
00:58:58:11 - 00:59:06:11
Michael
Writing, and reporting and editing your own things for submission, obviously. And then they get edited, but, you know.
00:59:07:04 - 00:59:14:20
Kyle
So you could you could be a journalist on a topic, write something and then edit it yourself into whatever publication you're working for.
00:59:14:20 - 00:59:16:05
Michael
No, no, no. So I when I say edit.
00:59:16:05 - 00:59:17:14
Michael
It's just like you're going through.
00:59:17:14 - 00:59:19:18
Michael
Drafts and then you send it in and then.
00:59:19:20 - 00:59:20:18
Michael
So like it's just.
00:59:20:20 - 00:59:22:08
Michael
Editing is a natural part of writing.
00:59:22:08 - 00:59:23:02
Michael
You're you're.
00:59:23:02 - 00:59:27:20
Michael
Always, you know, obviously working on the piece, but you're not but you're a writer and then you work with.
00:59:27:20 - 00:59:28:02
Michael
The editor.
00:59:28:09 - 00:59:32:20
Michael
But editors at most, many publications,
00:59:32:23 - 00:59:34:02
Michael
Their first.
00:59:34:04 - 00:59:35:08
Michael
Their primary.
00:59:35:08 - 00:59:36:21
Michael
Role is.
00:59:36:23 - 00:59:37:22
Michael
Editing, working with.
00:59:37:22 - 00:59:38:09
Michael
Writers.
00:59:38:16 - 00:59:40:04
Michael
Curating.
00:59:40:06 - 00:59:43:13
Michael
Stories for a site or a.
00:59:43:15 - 00:59:47:05
Michael
Magazine or a newspaper. But many of them also.
00:59:47:05 - 00:59:47:17
Michael
Do.
00:59:47:17 - 00:59:48:08
Michael
Still write
00:59:48:19 - 00:59:58:25
Kyle
God. Okay. So it's like, like you got the found. Yeah, the foundational journalist. And then you could also add the editing role to yourself to kind of curate more stories.
00:59:58:28 - 00:59:59:25
Kyle
Okay.
00:59:59:25 - 01:00:02:18
Michael
it's, I think writing is very stressful.
01:00:02:18 - 01:00:02:24
Michael
I've
01:00:06:02 - 01:00:10:17
Kyle
You're like, give me your stories.
01:00:10:27 - 01:00:11:24
Kyle
Yeah.
01:00:13:06 - 01:00:14:02
Michael
Other things.
01:00:14:05 - 01:00:14:13
Michael
So I.
01:00:14:13 - 01:00:16:15
Michael
Wrote some, environmental.
01:00:16:15 - 01:00:32:04
Michael
Stories. What else did I write? So, travel pieces, some pieces about, some pieces.
01:00:32:04 - 01:00:33:25
Michael
That the intersection of.
01:00:33:27 - 01:00:34:06
Michael
Both.
01:00:34:06 - 01:00:37:24
Michael
Of those things and, some
01:00:39:05 - 01:00:41:21
Kyle
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
01:00:41:24 - 01:00:52:12
Kyle
Not not very interesting. Didn't stick with you. And were you climbing throughout this whole time? Still in this pivot of journalistic focus, are you, like, still climbing?
01:00:52:20 - 01:00:57:09
Michael
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm still.
01:00:57:11 - 01:00:58:24
Michael
I try to do it all.
01:00:58:28 - 01:01:10:13
Michael
Still whenever I can. So, when I was living in New York, you know, a climb at the monks whenever I could, Boulder some in central Park and hit the gym more frequently.
01:01:10:20 - 01:01:25:02
Kyle
Yeah, I read I read that article in the Summer Journal about the Boulder and in Central Park. Yeah, that was a cool little. That was a cool little piece, for sure. Sounds like a trash boulder.
01:01:25:05 - 01:01:27:17
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.
01:01:27:20 - 01:01:33:10
Kyle
And then. Yeah. I think it is. Or.
01:01:37:20 - 01:01:40:22
Kyle
You made a trip to Peru? Yeah.
01:01:40:22 - 01:01:43:21
Michael
that was right after I.
01:01:43:22 - 01:01:47:23
Michael
Stopped working for mags and before,
01:01:47:26 - 01:01:48:21
Michael
For school.
01:01:48:21 - 01:01:50:16
Michael
I went and tried Apple Maya.
01:01:50:16 - 01:01:51:24
Michael
With.
01:01:51:26 - 01:01:53:04
Michael
A friend, and we got pretty.
01:01:53:04 - 01:01:53:14
Michael
Close.
01:01:53:14 - 01:01:54:26
Michael
But, turned.
01:01:54:26 - 01:01:58:06
Michael
Away. Turned back very close to the top.
01:01:58:09 - 01:01:59:21
Michael
And then I linked up with.
01:01:59:21 - 01:02:02:10
Michael
This really world class poets out.
01:02:02:11 - 01:02:04:20
Michael
Polish alpinist. Just who I ran into at.
01:02:04:20 - 01:02:05:18
Michael
The at one of.
01:02:05:18 - 01:02:08:18
Michael
The climbing hostels down there just by chance. And we.
01:02:08:18 - 01:02:09:23
Michael
Did,
01:02:09:25 - 01:02:12:26
Michael
A route on this new route on this little peak. And so that.
01:02:12:26 - 01:02:14:09
Michael
Was that's definitely a career.
01:02:15:28 - 01:02:19:16
Kyle
And you had written an article about him in the in the past, right?
01:02:19:18 - 01:02:19:29
Michael
Adam.
01:02:19:29 - 01:02:21:08
Michael
Bielecki, who's.
01:02:21:10 - 01:02:23:20
Michael
He's done the he.
01:02:23:23 - 01:02:24:17
Michael
Was.
01:02:24:19 - 01:02:26:20
Michael
Has done the first winter ascent.
01:02:26:24 - 01:02:29:12
Michael
Of several 8000 meter peaks. Right.
01:02:29:12 - 01:02:30:14
Michael
So not many.
01:02:30:14 - 01:02:32:03
Michael
People have.
01:02:32:06 - 01:02:35:24
Michael
Done that. And I wrote one of my first.
01:02:35:24 - 01:02:36:19
Michael
Big features for.
01:02:36:19 - 01:02:37:08
Michael
Rock and ice.
01:02:37:08 - 01:02:38:29
Michael
Was about.
01:02:40:01 - 01:02:42:28
Michael
This pretty crazy rescue.
01:02:43:01 - 01:02:49:27
Michael
In disaster on Nanga Parbat in, in, Pakistan. And Adam.
01:02:49:27 - 01:02:51:02
Michael
Bielecki was.
01:02:52:06 - 01:02:54:02
Michael
One of these Polish.
01:02:54:05 - 01:02:54:27
Michael
Climbers who.
01:02:54:28 - 01:02:56:26
Michael
Rescued this other climber.
01:02:56:28 - 01:02:58:12
Michael
And so I had spoken to him a bunch a.
01:02:58:12 - 01:03:00:00
Michael
Couple of years before.
01:03:00:03 - 01:03:02:14
Michael
And yeah, so getting to climb with him was.
01:03:02:18 - 01:03:02:29
Michael
Pretty.
01:03:02:29 - 01:03:06:13
Michael
Surreal. Guys, machine.
01:03:06:27 - 01:03:09:26
Kyle
As if I'd just happened by chance that you ran into him.
01:03:09:29 - 01:03:10:28
Kyle
Yeah.
01:03:10:28 - 01:03:13:03
Michael
Maya still had a few days or.
01:03:13:03 - 01:03:14:06
Michael
A week in town. Maybe.
01:03:14:06 - 01:03:17:01
Michael
Maybe 3 or 4 days.
01:03:17:03 - 01:03:22:06
Michael
And I, we had met this, other, Peruvian.
01:03:22:06 - 01:03:22:24
Michael
Guide where.
01:03:22:24 - 01:03:25:19
Michael
We were up in the mountains. And so I was going to explore climbing with him for the.
01:03:25:19 - 01:03:26:17
Michael
Day.
01:03:26:19 - 01:03:28:23
Michael
Near town. And I met him at the.
01:03:28:23 - 01:03:30:24
Michael
Hostel where he works or.
01:03:30:24 - 01:03:31:10
Michael
Stays.
01:03:31:10 - 01:03:33:20
Michael
And I like, heard this. There's a.
01:03:33:23 - 01:03:34:04
Michael
Whole bunch.
01:03:34:04 - 01:03:35:02
Michael
Of Polish climbers.
01:03:35:02 - 01:03:36:20
Michael
There, or I didn't necessarily know.
01:03:36:20 - 01:03:40:11
Michael
They were Polish at the time, but I heard this voice and I was like, I recognize that voice.
01:03:40:13 - 01:03:41:12
Michael
And then Adam.
01:03:41:12 - 01:03:45:12
Michael
Bielecki had this kind of like, I think.
01:03:45:14 - 01:03:46:01
Michael
It's pretty much a.
01:03:46:01 - 01:03:47:02
Michael
Rat tail.
01:03:47:04 - 01:03:47:15
Michael
It's like a.
01:03:47:15 - 01:03:48:11
Michael
Rat tail dreadlock
01:03:48:28 - 01:03:51:23
Kyle
Okay. Okay.
01:03:51:23 - 01:03:52:26
Michael
like Adam.
01:03:52:29 - 01:03:56:18
Michael
And he turned around and was like, didn't remember my name.
01:03:56:18 - 01:03:57:20
Michael
But he was like,
01:03:57:23 - 01:03:59:05
Michael
He knew he knew who I.
01:03:59:05 - 01:04:01:07
Michael
Was. And we got to talk.
01:04:01:07 - 01:04:02:05
Michael
When he came sport climbing.
01:04:02:05 - 01:04:03:08
Michael
With us for the day.
01:04:03:10 - 01:04:04:11
Michael
And he on this.
01:04:04:11 - 01:04:06:29
Michael
Expedition, he just that he was with, like.
01:04:07:02 - 01:04:09:00
Michael
He kind of joined it at the last second. And everyone had.
01:04:09:00 - 01:04:10:24
Michael
Paired up for these various.
01:04:10:27 - 01:04:11:17
Michael
Objectives.
01:04:11:17 - 01:04:13:10
Michael
And the Cordillera Blanca.
01:04:14:03 - 01:04:14:18
Michael
He's like, yeah.
01:04:14:18 - 01:04:15:02
Michael
I don't.
01:04:15:02 - 01:04:15:26
Michael
Like, I don't know.
01:04:16:00 - 01:04:16:22
Michael
Itching to go.
01:04:16:22 - 01:04:17:18
Michael
But I don't have one to.
01:04:17:18 - 01:04:20:25
Michael
Go and don't know what to do. And I was like, I'm sorry.
01:04:22:10 - 01:04:24:05
Michael
Let me chair the Peruvian guy who were with.
01:04:24:05 - 01:04:24:26
Michael
I was like, yeah.
01:04:24:28 - 01:04:25:24
Michael
What's a good mountain for.
01:04:25:24 - 01:04:26:25
Michael
Us to go climb?
01:04:27:25 - 01:04:29:09
Michael
And then I think we went the next day.
01:04:29:09 - 01:04:32:28
Michael
Yeah, we, I packed up really quick, caught.
01:04:32:28 - 01:04:35:26
Michael
A taxi in the mountains and hiked in.
01:04:36:07 - 01:04:38:05
Kyle
There's a first ascent.
01:04:38:08 - 01:04:40:03
Kyle
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:04:40:09 - 01:04:50:29
Kyle
The route. What kind of climbing was it?
01:04:51:02 - 01:05:05:28
Kyle
Like.
01:05:06:00 - 01:05:13:14
Kyle
Okay. So. Yeah.
01:05:13:14 - 01:05:14:20
Michael
alpine ice snow.
01:05:15:15 - 01:05:17:05
Kyle
And what happened on Vimeo?
01:05:17:05 - 01:05:18:24
Michael
Oh, we just.
01:05:18:26 - 01:05:20:20
Michael
Didn't ever sit together and.
01:05:20:22 - 01:05:24:17
Michael
We're too slow and, basically decided to.
01:05:24:17 - 01:05:25:00
Michael
Turn.
01:05:25:00 - 01:05:27:09
Michael
Back.
01:05:27:11 - 01:05:28:07
Michael
Given the time of.
01:05:28:07 - 01:05:29:01
Michael
Day, rather.
01:05:29:01 - 01:05:30:08
Michael
Than keep going like we.
01:05:30:08 - 01:05:33:04
Michael
Were. We were in total. We were we were fine.
01:05:33:04 - 01:05:33:09
Michael
We were.
01:05:33:09 - 01:05:35:04
Michael
Just tired. And I.
01:05:35:10 - 01:05:36:09
Michael
Told my friend, I thought it.
01:05:36:09 - 01:05:36:25
Michael
Was best.
01:05:36:25 - 01:05:38:28
Michael
To turn back, you know, read enough.
01:05:38:28 - 01:05:40:06
Michael
Stories like,
01:05:40:08 - 01:05:40:21
Michael
Touching the.
01:05:40:21 - 01:05:40:28
Michael
Void
01:05:41:18 - 01:06:05:04
Kyle
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Interesting. I've always wanted to go up there. I've got a trip to Peru planned for the for July. I'm not going to do any climbing. It's more like a I'm going with my girlfriend and doing a bunch of hikes and stuff. Is it incredible? Oh, yeah. We're going to Juarez. Am I going to stay? I want to go to the town and like, be in the the mountain range and like go to the alpine lakes and just kind of like, all right, like, do these mountains inspire me?
01:06:05:04 - 01:06:12:17
Kyle
Like, do I want to come out here and, like, actually go for these kind of things? I just kind of feel it out. Yeah, I do right. Yeah, I do.
01:06:12:17 - 01:06:13:27
Michael
Town. And the thing that.
01:06:13:27 - 01:06:16:21
Michael
I think is so cool about Juarez.
01:06:16:26 - 01:06:17:17
Michael
And.
01:06:17:19 - 01:06:18:27
Michael
The Cordillera Blanca versus.
01:06:18:27 - 01:06:19:24
Michael
Something.
01:06:19:26 - 01:06:22:02
Michael
Versus a place like Alaska.
01:06:23:07 - 01:06:28:04
Michael
Is like Alaska. It's easy enough to get in, right? You fly in.
01:06:28:04 - 01:06:30:11
Michael
When there's a weather window. But, if you.
01:06:30:11 - 01:06:31:14
Michael
Only have, like, if.
01:06:31:14 - 01:06:37:12
Michael
You're not a professional alpinist, you know, and, going for weeks or months and can just take the time off if you only have.
01:06:37:12 - 01:06:38:10
Michael
Like a week or two off.
01:06:38:10 - 01:06:40:27
Michael
Of a vacation, you can go to Alaska and just.
01:06:40:27 - 01:06:43:24
Michael
Get skunked. Do you sit on a glacier for a week or.
01:06:43:24 - 01:06:44:06
Michael
You sit in.
01:06:44:06 - 01:06:45:27
Michael
Talkeetna for a week because the.
01:06:46:00 - 01:06:46:22
Michael
The weather never clears.
01:06:46:22 - 01:06:46:25
Michael
Up.
01:06:46:25 - 01:06:48:08
Michael
But in the courtyard.
01:06:48:08 - 01:06:52:14
Michael
Blanca, the weather is just really good, really stable.
01:06:52:21 - 01:06:53:17
Michael
And it's.
01:06:53:19 - 01:06:53:27
Michael
There's.
01:06:53:27 - 01:06:54:12
Michael
So many.
01:06:54:12 - 01:07:05:07
Michael
Objectives that are so easy to get to really quickly from town. That's what it feels so good. So I guess I don't know, amusement park. It's really cool.
01:07:05:25 - 01:07:09:18
Kyle
It is cool. The access looks sick. It looks like there's incredible access.
01:07:09:18 - 01:07:14:04
Michael
Incredible access. And you're in this town and it's it's, kind of ringed by all.
01:07:14:04 - 01:07:14:24
Michael
These high peaks.
01:07:14:24 - 01:07:16:06
Michael
So you're like, in this.
01:07:16:06 - 01:07:16:20
Michael
You're at the.
01:07:16:20 - 01:07:17:18
Michael
Bottom and just.
01:07:17:18 - 01:07:17:29
Michael
Have this.
01:07:17:29 - 01:07:19:28
Michael
Huge, stunning mountains all around you.
01:07:19:28 - 01:07:24:02
Michael
It's spectacular. Yeah. You love it.
01:07:24:02 - 01:07:46:18
Kyle
So, you know you've mentioned this a couple times and this is kind of like the, the precipice of, of, you know, your, your presence here on the show is, your or summit journal. So, you know, let's, let's talk about that. We've kind of brought this all the way, you know, your your climbing trajectory, your journalism experience, your your time as an editor in Rock and ice.
01:07:46:21 - 01:07:58:06
Kyle
What a you know, this publication existed before. That's correct. Yeah. So so talk to me about the history of the Summer Journal and kind of how you ended up kind of crossing paths with it.
01:07:58:06 - 01:08:00:15
Michael
The Summit Journal is.
01:08:01:06 - 01:08:02:17
Michael
Technically the.
01:08:02:19 - 01:08:04:10
Michael
Pretty much the.
01:08:04:12 - 01:08:05:10
Michael
One of the oldest.
01:08:05:10 - 01:08:12:02
Michael
Climbing magazines in the country. It was wasn't founded as so much and was founded as summit magazine. So in 19.
01:08:12:02 - 01:08:12:27
Michael
55, these.
01:08:12:27 - 01:08:17:17
Michael
Two women, Jean Crenshaw and Helen Kilns, and Big.
01:08:17:17 - 01:08:17:22
Michael
Bear.
01:08:17:22 - 01:08:22:15
Michael
California, founded a magazine called Summit Magazine.
01:08:22:17 - 01:08:24:03
Michael
The first they founded is.
01:08:24:03 - 01:08:25:13
Michael
A skiing magazine. Actually, the.
01:08:25:13 - 01:08:29:23
Michael
First two issues are more ski focused, but they very quickly pivoted.
01:08:29:23 - 01:08:33:04
Michael
And it became climbing focus and,
01:08:33:06 - 01:08:35:02
Michael
Managing focus.
01:08:36:07 - 01:08:36:25
Michael
And so that.
01:08:36:25 - 01:08:37:22
Michael
Published from 19.
01:08:37:22 - 01:08:40:11
Michael
55 until.
01:08:40:13 - 01:08:45:10
Michael
1989, and then they sold it in a different version of the magazine was put.
01:08:45:10 - 01:08:45:23
Michael
Out by a.
01:08:45:23 - 01:08:51:04
Michael
Different owner and different editors from 1990 to 1996.
01:08:51:06 - 01:08:54:10
Michael
And then closed up shop,
01:08:54:13 - 01:08:57:05
Michael
Until 2023, when I.
01:08:57:23 - 01:08:59:14
Michael
Acquired the rights to
01:08:59:14 - 01:09:02:07
Kyle
Do you know why it closed up shop?
01:09:02:17 - 01:09:08:09
Michael
I think so I'm, I'm friendly with the guy who used to own it now and the guy.
01:09:08:09 - 01:09:11:08
Michael
Who edited it. I think it's just it was a tough business model.
01:09:11:08 - 01:09:15:07
Michael
Right. Even back then, running magazine was. It wasn't.
01:09:15:07 - 01:09:17:01
Michael
A, like, a
01:09:17:17 - 01:09:18:01
Kyle
This.
01:09:18:04 - 01:09:19:06
Kyle
Yeah.
01:09:19:09 - 01:09:23:05
Kyle
Yeah. Let's up more of a passion project than it is. Anything else.
01:09:23:05 - 01:09:24:06
Michael
Yeah.
01:09:24:08 - 01:09:31:02
Michael
So I think they made it work as long as they could and then, you know, just didn't make sense anymore.
01:09:31:02 - 01:09:31:29
Michael
And so.
01:09:32:00 - 01:09:32:26
Michael
Yeah.
01:09:32:28 - 01:09:33:21
Michael
In 2020.
01:09:33:21 - 01:09:34:06
Michael
Three.
01:09:34:06 - 01:09:35:09
Michael
I announced.
01:09:35:09 - 01:09:36:23
Michael
The Resurrection.
01:09:36:23 - 01:09:39:10
Michael
Of Summit as Summit Journal. And in 2020.
01:09:39:10 - 01:09:43:24
Michael
Four, we put out our first two issues. We just put out our third issue.
01:09:43:27 - 01:09:44:22
Michael
And.
01:09:44:25 - 01:09:46:19
Michael
The fourth issue of the.
01:09:46:19 - 01:09:48:06
Michael
Reborn summit.
01:09:48:08 - 01:09:49:05
Michael
Is,
01:09:49:07 - 01:09:50:03
Michael
Due in August.
01:09:50:20 - 01:09:52:26
Kyle
Did you purchase the rights?
01:09:52:26 - 01:09:54:13
Michael
for.
01:09:54:15 - 01:09:55:11
Michael
Not that much money.
01:09:55:14 - 01:09:59:22
Kyle
pennies on the dollar.
01:09:59:25 - 01:10:01:12
Michael
I purchased.
01:10:01:14 - 01:10:04:06
Michael
Quite the right to the name and the logo.
01:10:04:08 - 01:10:05:28
Michael
And the copyrights to all covers.
01:10:05:28 - 01:10:07:28
Michael
And that's pretty much it.
01:10:08:00 - 01:10:10:21
Michael
I got an on the, the, the actual articles.
01:10:10:21 - 01:10:12:01
Michael
In the old magazine, all the people.
01:10:12:01 - 01:10:12:11
Michael
Who wrote.
01:10:12:11 - 01:10:13:02
Michael
Those on the rights.
01:10:13:02 - 01:10:13:16
Michael
To those.
01:10:14:11 - 01:10:15:11
Michael
But it's just so I.
01:10:15:11 - 01:10:18:27
Michael
Was purchasing a legacy and idea,
01:10:19:00 - 01:10:20:09
Michael
Because what Jean.
01:10:20:09 - 01:10:21:29
Michael
And Helen, the original founders.
01:10:21:29 - 01:10:27:16
Michael
Created over, you know, 35 years of publishing. It's pretty.
01:10:27:16 - 01:10:28:12
Michael
It's a pretty amazing.
01:10:28:12 - 01:10:29:13
Michael
Legacy.
01:10:29:16 - 01:10:30:19
Michael
That the old magazines.
01:10:30:19 - 01:10:34:28
Michael
Are just they're really, really cool. They're like, history.
01:10:34:28 - 01:10:37:29
Michael
Of North American climbing in the 20th century. You know.
01:10:38:06 - 01:10:38:16
Michael
Royal.
01:10:38:16 - 01:10:40:15
Michael
Robins was an editor.
01:10:40:15 - 01:10:40:21
Michael
For.
01:10:40:21 - 01:10:44:11
Michael
Years and writing essays and wrote one of the seminal essays.
01:10:44:11 - 01:10:46:04
Michael
About.
01:10:46:06 - 01:10:47:02
Michael
That that kind of.
01:10:47:07 - 01:10:47:26
Michael
Kickstarted.
01:10:47:26 - 01:10:50:00
Michael
The clean climbing movement in the United.
01:10:50:00 - 01:10:51:08
Michael
States.
01:10:51:10 - 01:10:55:22
Michael
And it appeared in some its pages. Yvon Chouinard wrote for summit.
01:10:55:24 - 01:10:57:06
Michael
So but.
01:10:57:06 - 01:10:57:20
Michael
Then you also.
01:10:57:20 - 01:10:58:10
Michael
Had just.
01:10:58:12 - 01:10:59:27
Michael
Random folks talking about their.
01:11:00:01 - 01:11:01:06
Michael
Little.
01:11:01:08 - 01:11:02:11
Michael
Climbing trips.
01:11:02:13 - 01:11:03:10
Michael
So it was a it was a.
01:11:03:10 - 01:11:05:18
Michael
Pretty badass magazine.
01:11:05:18 - 01:11:06:15
Michael
So, yeah.
01:11:06:15 - 01:11:11:00
Michael
And I had discovered summit.
01:11:11:02 - 01:11:13:25
Michael
Basically when I was working on the climbing magazines because, you know, doing.
01:11:13:25 - 01:11:14:11
Michael
Research about.
01:11:14:11 - 01:11:17:23
Michael
Other things and then,
01:11:17:26 - 01:11:18:12
Michael
For other.
01:11:18:12 - 01:11:20:11
Michael
Articles and climbing history and.
01:11:20:11 - 01:11:21:22
Michael
Such.
01:11:21:24 - 01:11:22:26
Michael
And then.
01:11:22:29 - 01:11:23:20
Michael
The former editor.
01:11:23:20 - 01:11:24:20
Michael
At alpinist, Katie.
01:11:24:20 - 01:11:27:28
Michael
Ives, she had.
01:11:28:01 - 01:11:28:24
Michael
Written a great.
01:11:28:24 - 01:11:29:14
Michael
Piece about.
01:11:29:14 - 01:11:30:05
Michael
Gene and Helen.
01:11:30:05 - 01:11:31:01
Michael
In the history.
01:11:31:01 - 01:11:34:16
Michael
Of Summit. And, and it always kind of stuck with me that.
01:11:34:16 - 01:11:39:00
Michael
This is a really cool, cool title. Cool property.
01:11:39:02 - 01:11:40:12
Michael
I wonder.
01:11:40:14 - 01:11:41:06
Michael
What's up with it.
01:11:42:12 - 01:12:01:26
Kyle
Yeah. What was, what was your vision for, like, when you took it over? What was your vision like? Were you going to bring something to the table that was different? Were you, revitalizing the old passion that you saw that they brought to the magazine? Like, did you tweak anything? Like, what was your vision for this project?
01:12:01:26 - 01:12:02:29
Michael
So it did.
01:12:03:05 - 01:12:03:14
Michael
I mean.
01:12:03:14 - 01:12:08:00
Michael
Frankly, it's there's very little that's.
01:12:08:03 - 01:12:13:05
Michael
It that's the same between the old original magazine and the current magazine, except.
01:12:13:05 - 01:12:14:03
Michael
For the logo.
01:12:15:07 - 01:12:18:05
Michael
That we try to cover the full broad.
01:12:18:05 - 01:12:19:27
Michael
Spectrum of climbing, including.
01:12:19:29 - 01:12:20:17
Michael
Pros.
01:12:20:17 - 01:12:26:00
Michael
And, you know, not pros,
01:12:26:28 - 01:12:32:02
Kyle
The majority.
01:12:33:11 - 01:12:34:12
Michael
But what I was.
01:12:34:12 - 01:12:35:01
Michael
Looking to do.
01:12:35:01 - 01:12:36:05
Michael
Is.
01:12:36:07 - 01:12:44:08
Michael
You know, reinvigorate, the climbing magazine scene, since rock and ice and climbing had.
01:12:44:08 - 01:12:44:27
Michael
Both.
01:12:44:29 - 01:12:46:25
Michael
Been the print editions had been shuttered.
01:12:46:25 - 01:12:48:27
Michael
At that seemed, at the, at.
01:12:48:27 - 01:12:52:02
Michael
That time, and I was very much.
01:12:52:02 - 01:12:52:25
Michael
Inspired by.
01:12:52:25 - 01:12:58:18
Michael
Some magazines, some other niche magazines.
01:12:58:18 - 01:13:00:16
Michael
Of the past several years that had.
01:13:00:23 - 01:13:02:02
Michael
Seemed to have really vibrant.
01:13:02:02 - 01:13:04:16
Michael
Readerships and viable.
01:13:04:16 - 01:13:05:27
Michael
Business models and got to.
01:13:05:27 - 01:13:06:28
Michael
Do.
01:13:07:01 - 01:13:09:06
Michael
The kind of journalism that.
01:13:09:08 - 01:13:09:25
Michael
I wanted to.
01:13:09:25 - 01:13:16:16
Michael
Do, you know, long form, deeply reported, storytelling. So those magazines.
01:13:16:16 - 01:13:17:23
Michael
Just ran a few off.
01:13:17:23 - 01:13:18:20
Michael
Adventure Journal, which.
01:13:18:20 - 01:13:19:05
Michael
A lot of people.
01:13:19:05 - 01:13:19:13
Michael
Probably.
01:13:19:13 - 01:13:20:04
Michael
Know.
01:13:20:07 - 01:13:24:14
Michael
Mountain Gazette. Which is another magazine. There's an old.
01:13:24:14 - 01:13:25:15
Michael
Title.
01:13:25:18 - 01:13:25:29
Michael
From the.
01:13:25:29 - 01:13:29:14
Michael
60s that was resurrected.
01:13:29:17 - 01:13:30:25
Michael
And.
01:13:30:27 - 01:13:32:20
Michael
So I thought, why.
01:13:32:20 - 01:13:36:13
Michael
Couldn't I do that with climbing? And summit seemed like.
01:13:36:13 - 01:13:41:03
Michael
Such a great property to try that with.
01:13:41:06 - 01:13:42:21
Michael
And I was lucky enough.
01:13:42:21 - 01:13:45:20
Michael
It took me forever to figure.
01:13:45:20 - 01:13:48:01
Michael
Out who owned it and how to get in touch with them.
01:13:48:01 - 01:13:49:27
Michael
But eventually that I did it.
01:13:49:29 - 01:13:54:18
Michael
I got in touch with the the niece of.
01:13:54:20 - 01:13:56:10
Michael
Of,
01:13:56:12 - 01:13:59:07
Michael
Jean Crenshaw. Her name was Paula Crenshaw.
01:13:59:09 - 01:14:00:17
Michael
And basically I said.
01:14:00:17 - 01:14:06:09
Michael
Like, I'm not going to resurrect this magazine without the blessing of Jean and Helen were.
01:14:06:11 - 01:14:09:09
Michael
Both both both died a few years ago.
01:14:09:12 - 01:14:10:11
Michael
And so.
01:14:10:13 - 01:14:13:24
Michael
Paula was very.
01:14:13:26 - 01:14:16:16
Michael
Gracious and generous and was really psyched on the project. And I still.
01:14:16:17 - 01:14:17:23
Michael
Talk with her every, every.
01:14:17:23 - 01:14:20:11
Michael
Couple of months. So that's been really cool.
01:14:20:17 - 01:14:44:25
Kyle
So you had mentioned a couple magazines in like other spaces that were successful being like, you know, I would you call you like an independent publishing company in a way. Are there other publications in the climbing space that I guess, like, would be considered, you know, competition in a way, like off the top of my head, the only publication I can really, that I can even think of is the alpinist mag.
01:14:44:27 - 01:14:45:15
Kyle
Yeah.
01:14:45:15 - 01:14:48:07
Michael
There's alpinist, which is a great magazine.
01:14:48:09 - 01:14:48:24
Michael
I just got.
01:14:48:24 - 01:14:49:03
Michael
The new.
01:14:49:03 - 01:14:49:29
Michael
Issue.
01:14:50:01 - 01:14:50:21
Michael
To,
01:14:50:23 - 01:14:51:24
Michael
I read a couple pieces.
01:14:51:24 - 01:14:52:24
Michael
Last night and I'm psyched to.
01:14:53:00 - 01:14:53:09
Michael
Dive.
01:14:53:09 - 01:14:57:17
Michael
In. And, this alpinist.
01:14:57:19 - 01:14:59:00
Michael
Which is.
01:14:59:02 - 01:15:08:17
Michael
Owned by, a small publishing company called Heidi of Land Publications that publishes.
01:15:08:19 - 01:15:09:09
Michael
I think two.
01:15:09:09 - 01:15:10:05
Michael
Other magazines, maybe.
01:15:10:05 - 01:15:10:14
Michael
Three.
01:15:10:14 - 01:15:18:15
Michael
They publish backcountry magazine skiing, and then Mountain Flier, which is mountain biking.
01:15:18:17 - 01:15:18:26
Michael
But they.
01:15:18:29 - 01:15:21:04
Michael
Very much a small independent.
01:15:21:06 - 01:15:22:06
Michael
Publishing.
01:15:22:08 - 01:15:31:00
Michael
Company and magazine. So, but they're clearly, you know, a little bit more focused on icy and snowy,
01:15:31:02 - 01:15:34:06
Michael
Little serious.
01:15:34:09 - 01:15:36:24
Michael
And so, summit, I.
01:15:36:24 - 01:15:37:21
Michael
Think, who.
01:15:37:21 - 01:15:39:14
Michael
Staked out some different terrain, which is.
01:15:39:14 - 01:15:42:06
Michael
Great for both of us.
01:15:42:08 - 01:15:44:29
Michael
And then there's the climbing scene.
01:15:45:01 - 01:15:47:07
Michael
Which is,
01:15:47:09 - 01:15:50:16
Michael
A biannual climbing magazine, put.
01:15:50:16 - 01:15:50:27
Michael
Out by this.
01:15:50:27 - 01:15:53:05
Michael
Guy Luke Mitchell. And it's also,
01:15:53:08 - 01:15:54:13
Michael
Great little publication.
01:15:54:24 - 01:16:11:00
Kyle
Is it zine or zine. Is it seen and seen. Okay. It's the. No, no I got that, I got that I don't know why. Like like on Instagram. It's so funny like all these things you don't really see like oh it's a climbing zine. You know, you're like dude it's a Zen bro.
01:16:11:02 - 01:16:11:26
Kyle
Okay.
01:16:11:28 - 01:16:14:01
Michael
There's that.
01:16:14:03 - 01:16:23:19
Michael
Is there any other print climbing publication out there? I just saw on Instagram today that, I was messaging with him that Chris Schultz.
01:16:23:21 - 01:16:25:20
Michael
A bold, great, really.
01:16:25:22 - 01:16:27:07
Michael
Really amazing Boulder and.
01:16:27:07 - 01:16:29:00
Michael
Advocate for communities, is.
01:16:29:02 - 01:16:33:06
Michael
Potentially starting a, small climbing magazine.
01:16:33:06 - 01:16:37:19
Michael
So that'll be really cool. So to check it out, basically, I think, you know, there's.
01:16:37:19 - 01:16:39:23
Michael
Room, in the space.
01:16:39:23 - 01:16:40:00
Michael
For.
01:16:40:02 - 01:16:41:10
Michael
Several magazines.
01:16:41:10 - 01:16:42:23
Michael
To exist. Like, yes, these we.
01:16:42:23 - 01:16:43:14
Michael
Are all competitors.
01:16:43:14 - 01:16:45:20
Michael
With each other, but I think a.
01:16:45:23 - 01:16:46:04
Michael
Rising.
01:16:46:05 - 01:16:47:09
Michael
Tide lifts all boats.
01:16:47:09 - 01:16:52:21
Michael
And we're all doing things slightly different. I mean, I think I think someone's doing the best. Don't get me.
01:16:52:21 - 01:16:53:01
Michael
Wrong.
01:16:55:27 - 01:17:19:14
Kyle
So, so, like you, you said that, like climbing. Climbing mag and rock and ice and outside, like it's all one conglomerate now. Like, why aren't they producing some sort of massive publication that everyone's buying? Like, how has that industry been shuttered in a way like, why is why are independent publishers being, you know, able to support themselves in this ecosystem while this giant kind of corporation style is not?
01:17:19:29 - 01:17:23:13
Michael
I mean, in terms of why independent ones are able.
01:17:23:13 - 01:17:24:20
Michael
To do it right, let's.
01:17:24:20 - 01:17:27:13
Michael
Not going beyond our means, you know, having.
01:17:27:15 - 01:17:28:24
Michael
Humbler.
01:17:28:26 - 01:17:33:25
Michael
Aspiration is right. I mean, I'm putting out two magazines a year, print only. So I don't need to.
01:17:33:27 - 01:17:34:20
Michael
Be constantly.
01:17:34:20 - 01:17:35:11
Michael
Feeding the beast.
01:17:35:11 - 01:17:35:21
Michael
Of.
01:17:35:22 - 01:17:41:21
Michael
Online content. I am not putting out four.
01:17:41:24 - 01:17:45:00
Michael
Issues a year or 12 issues a year. Again, it's just two issues a year.
01:17:45:02 - 01:17:45:20
Michael
Focusing on.
01:17:45:20 - 01:17:47:15
Michael
Quality.
01:17:47:18 - 01:17:57:09
Michael
I don't, you know, I'm giving this interview out of my house, right, to work from home. We don't have an office space. We have a small, lean staff. It's me, my art.
01:17:57:09 - 01:17:58:12
Michael
Director.
01:17:58:14 - 01:18:01:10
Michael
Some contractors, and then a lot of freelance writers and.
01:18:01:10 - 01:18:04:15
Michael
Photographers who are really great.
01:18:04:18 - 01:18:06:06
Michael
So on the one hand, why.
01:18:06:06 - 01:18:06:29
Michael
It works for us.
01:18:06:29 - 01:18:09:25
Michael
Right. And then really leaning into.
01:18:09:27 - 01:18:12:00
Michael
Trying to be as subscribe.
01:18:12:02 - 01:18:13:24
Michael
Revenue dependent.
01:18:13:26 - 01:18:14:27
Michael
As possible versus.
01:18:14:27 - 01:18:16:08
Michael
Advertising revenue dependent.
01:18:16:08 - 01:18:17:11
Michael
We we.
01:18:17:13 - 01:18:19:01
Michael
Run a number of ads in each issue.
01:18:19:01 - 01:18:20:00
Michael
But a small.
01:18:20:00 - 01:18:22:04
Michael
Number, and there
01:18:24:18 - 01:18:43:09
Kyle
Yeah. That was one thing I noticed about the the issue you sent me. It's like front and back, loaded with with ads. And it's, like, tasteful, you know, photography focused, you know, ad placement, and part of the story.
01:18:43:12 - 01:18:44:12
Kyle
Yeah.
01:18:44:21 - 01:18:46:27
Michael
Like, there's not just some random beer
01:18:48:24 - 01:18:52:07
Kyle
Sponsored by scope and Bella's point. Yeah.
01:18:52:10 - 01:18:57:12
Kyle
Yeah.
01:18:57:15 - 01:19:01:00
Kyle
No, it's a honestly great beer. Yeah. Yeah.
01:19:01:05 - 01:19:03:22
Michael
But, you know, the dream would be.
01:19:03:22 - 01:19:04:27
Michael
To be.
01:19:05:00 - 01:19:07:23
Michael
A 100% subscriber revenue supported and not run a single.
01:19:07:23 - 01:19:09:19
Michael
Ad that would be cool.
01:19:09:22 - 01:19:13:00
Michael
And, you know, get in there day by day. Every subscription.
01:19:13:03 - 01:19:14:07
Michael
Helps. But that.
01:19:14:07 - 01:19:15:26
Michael
Is a much more sustainable model.
01:19:15:26 - 01:19:16:03
Michael
Right?
01:19:16:03 - 01:19:18:22
Michael
Like when the economy's bad, most.
01:19:18:22 - 01:19:20:04
Michael
Subscribers, if you.
01:19:21:00 - 01:19:23:24
Michael
Build a product that's worthwhile, they're going to stick with you as the.
01:19:23:24 - 01:19:26:17
Michael
Advertisers make up and leave.
01:19:26:19 - 01:19:27:26
Michael
So it's like.
01:19:27:28 - 01:19:29:04
Michael
Why are we doing it and not doing it.
01:19:29:04 - 01:19:30:09
Michael
For the advertisers, doing for people.
01:19:30:09 - 01:19:30:23
Michael
Who want to read.
01:19:30:23 - 01:19:32:29
Michael
Good stories. So it's like it's it all reinforces.
01:19:32:29 - 01:19:33:22
Michael
It's trying to build.
01:19:33:22 - 01:19:43:11
Michael
A positive, good community ecosystem. What about the big guys don't last. Right. Like yeah. Because they're looking they're.
01:19:43:12 - 01:19:46:06
Michael
Looking for a solution.
01:19:46:09 - 01:19:47:17
Michael
To a problem.
01:19:47:17 - 01:19:49:12
Michael
That doesn't exist. Right. Like no one asked.
01:19:49:12 - 01:19:50:11
Michael
For a big.
01:19:50:13 - 01:19:52:10
Michael
Media platform that gives.
01:19:52:10 - 01:19:52:19
Michael
You.
01:19:52:25 - 01:19:55:03
Michael
Climbing and biking and.
01:19:56:09 - 01:19:57:16
Michael
Top ten destinations
01:19:58:03 - 01:20:00:28
Kyle
Yeah. The ecosystems don't care about each other.
01:20:00:28 - 01:20:01:27
Michael
like that.
01:20:01:27 - 01:20:04:03
Michael
No, I don't think anyone have wanted that.
01:20:04:03 - 01:20:06:26
Michael
And it's surprised
01:20:07:07 - 01:20:33:05
Kyle
Surprise. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. It's, it's almost cool. It's almost like, you know, I feel like, you know, not only in the publication space, but in the retail space. We've got, like, big ass brands like Patagonia, and like Black Diamond. And we have this big corporate kind of conglomerate push in these brands, and I feel like a lot of them are really struggling right now.
01:20:33:07 - 01:20:47:22
Kyle
And I wonder if I wonder if it's sustainable. I wonder if kind of like, you know, the, the grassroots kind of independent owned businesses will kind of take back over and kind of run, run the space as, as it was in the beginning.
01:20:48:01 - 01:20:48:22
Michael
So one of my.
01:20:48:22 - 01:20:49:14
Michael
Favorite.
01:20:50:10 - 01:20:52:12
Michael
Related to that, if I can just go off on a.
01:20:52:12 - 01:20:53:10
Michael
Tangent, one of my.
01:20:53:10 - 01:20:55:03
Michael
Favorite stories that.
01:20:55:05 - 01:20:58:07
Michael
We've published in Summit Journal. It was in.
01:20:58:10 - 01:21:01:10
Michael
Not this last issue, but the issue before that.
01:21:02:29 - 01:21:07:27
Michael
It was the story about where the basically the.
01:21:07:27 - 01:21:08:28
Michael
The inspiration for.
01:21:08:28 - 01:21:13:10
Michael
It. I was like, where did the, the, the.
01:21:13:10 - 01:21:17:18
Michael
Leaps and bounds come from and gear innovation. Right. Like.
01:21:17:20 - 01:21:19:07
Michael
Is it, you know.
01:21:19:07 - 01:21:22:02
Michael
Black Diamond with some big.
01:21:22:04 - 01:21:23:21
Michael
Lab break testing.
01:21:23:21 - 01:21:25:15
Michael
Things and iterating or.
01:21:25:15 - 01:21:26:08
Michael
Is it.
01:21:26:10 - 01:21:29:25
Michael
You know, the guys in their garage tinkering?
01:21:29:27 - 01:21:31:01
Michael
And obviously it.
01:21:31:01 - 01:21:31:18
Michael
Happens both.
01:21:31:18 - 01:21:32:12
Michael
Places. But like if you.
01:21:32:12 - 01:21:34:01
Michael
Look at climbing, you know.
01:21:34:01 - 01:21:35:18
Michael
The story of climbing like it was Yvon.
01:21:35:18 - 01:21:38:19
Michael
Chouinard just, you know, pounding pitons in his garage.
01:21:38:21 - 01:21:43:00
Michael
And then we really looked at the real thrust of the story is.
01:21:43:03 - 01:21:46:07
Michael
You seen, you know, G7 portal ledges,
01:21:46:16 - 01:21:48:23
Kyle
Yeah.
01:21:48:23 - 01:21:55:03
Michael
There's so like, that the guy who,
01:21:55:05 - 01:21:58:06
Michael
Started that company, Nathan Cook, at this. I think that's how sales.
01:21:58:11 - 01:22:00:10
Michael
Were cooking this.
01:22:00:13 - 01:22:01:01
Michael
Not exactly.
01:22:01:03 - 01:22:01:16
Michael
How to say his.
01:22:01:18 - 01:22:03:20
Kyle
I won't hold you to it.
01:22:03:20 - 01:22:05:18
Michael
Nathan.
01:22:05:20 - 01:22:08:06
Michael
He, you know, grew up just, like.
01:22:08:09 - 01:22:15:20
Michael
Tinkering with stuff in his garage, like filing metal rulers to make pitons, to go pound into the cracks. And it's just a.
01:22:15:23 - 01:22:16:14
Michael
Super.
01:22:16:18 - 01:22:20:19
Michael
Smart engineering mind.
01:22:20:21 - 01:22:22:26
Michael
And he's, you know.
01:22:22:29 - 01:22:26:24
Michael
Has been making, like, turn this idea for an inflatable.
01:22:26:24 - 01:22:27:25
Michael
Portal lives that he.
01:22:27:25 - 01:22:29:09
Michael
You know.
01:22:29:11 - 01:22:30:19
Michael
He made the first prototype.
01:22:30:19 - 01:22:33:29
Michael
And took it up on El Cap himself kind of thing. To.
01:22:34:00 - 01:22:34:24
Michael
He's still just.
01:22:35:00 - 01:22:39:00
Michael
This independent guy. And, you know, the best climbers in the world are using it, so it's.
01:22:39:00 - 01:22:40:25
Michael
Like.
01:22:40:28 - 01:22:42:15
Michael
I think.
01:22:42:17 - 01:22:42:24
Michael
Right?
01:22:42:25 - 01:22:44:19
Michael
Like, eventually, who knows, maybe he'll.
01:22:44:19 - 01:22:46:09
Michael
Sell it to a bigger brand.
01:22:46:09 - 01:22:47:20
Michael
Or something. But,
01:22:47:22 - 01:22:50:16
Michael
A lot of the like, the, like.
01:22:50:18 - 01:22:53:22
Michael
Real innovative ideas and climbing come from these, these
01:22:54:21 - 01:22:59:22
Kyle
Yeah. The scrappy grassroots. Yeah.
01:23:04:02 - 01:23:18:09
Kyle
Well, I mean, that's kind of like the, the, the pinnacle of being like a climbing athlete, right? Is that you get to go out there and just test all the pinnacle gear and provide feedback and be like, you know, this sucks. This is good I want this. You know, that would be a great it would be a great gig.
01:23:18:11 - 01:23:41:18
Kyle
You're like this of sucks. Make it better for me please I want it I want the head to be more narrow. I want it to feel better in my hands. Like, that would be really cool to be able to just, like, provide feedback like that. But, it is cool to have someone like, have that vision of like, I want something to be better because it would be better for this use case that I'm currently in, and I'm going to do it because I have the use case or I have the vision for it.
01:23:41:18 - 01:23:45:26
Kyle
And like that's where, you know, innovation and and all this stuff comes from.
01:23:46:10 - 01:23:47:25
Michael
I'm going backwards in this.
01:23:47:26 - 01:23:48:18
Michael
The story.
01:23:48:18 - 01:23:53:15
Michael
But one of Nathan's inspirations for making his.
01:23:53:15 - 01:23:54:01
Michael
Paw legit was.
01:23:54:01 - 01:23:56:23
Michael
This guy John Middendorp who just.
01:23:56:23 - 01:23:59:13
Michael
Died last year I think.
01:23:59:16 - 01:24:01:17
Michael
And John Middendorp who we talked about in the story.
01:24:01:17 - 01:24:02:18
Michael
Too is a.
01:24:02:18 - 01:24:06:06
Michael
Legendary legendary climber.
01:24:06:08 - 01:24:06:20
Michael
Did.
01:24:06:20 - 01:24:10:14
Michael
God knows how many walls and in Yosemite how many rats? An el.
01:24:10:14 - 01:24:11:05
Michael
Cap.
01:24:11:08 - 01:24:11:15
Michael
Put.
01:24:11:15 - 01:24:12:10
Michael
Up.
01:24:12:13 - 01:24:13:14
Michael
One of.
01:24:13:16 - 01:24:15:15
Michael
This, this epic.
01:24:15:17 - 01:24:25:11
Michael
I mean, futuristic thing and, either great Train or tower. Nameless tower. But in, like.
01:24:25:13 - 01:24:29:09
Michael
I think it was the 70s. He was, like Half Dome.
01:24:29:09 - 01:24:33:23
Michael
Or something with two friends, and they got caught in a snowstorm and their.
01:24:33:26 - 01:24:38:06
Michael
Portal ledge collapsed because like, the it was like this was like pretty.
01:24:38:09 - 01:24:41:22
Michael
Like, new portal edge technology, portal ledges. You know.
01:24:41:27 - 01:24:42:24
Michael
Originally people were.
01:24:42:24 - 01:24:43:09
Michael
Hauling them up.
01:24:43:09 - 01:24:43:21
Michael
Like
01:24:45:06 - 01:24:46:27
Kyle
Yeah.
01:24:46:27 - 01:24:47:27
Michael
And the portal ledge kept.
01:24:47:27 - 01:24:49:16
Michael
Collapsing and they, like, nearly.
01:24:49:16 - 01:24:49:26
Michael
Died.
01:24:49:26 - 01:24:53:00
Michael
Up there. And he came down. He was like, I want to invent.
01:24:53:02 - 01:24:54:06
Michael
The ledge.
01:24:54:08 - 01:24:55:00
Michael
That we needed.
01:24:55:05 - 01:24:55:17
Michael
To get to.
01:24:55:17 - 01:24:56:03
Michael
The top and to
01:24:56:03 - 01:25:00:07
Kyle
yeah.
01:25:02:27 - 01:25:06:16
Michael
The, the port, the portal ledge that everyone envisions.
01:25:06:16 - 01:25:07:12
Michael
When the original portal.
01:25:07:12 - 01:25:07:20
Michael
Edged.
01:25:07:20 - 01:25:08:09
Michael
That's what John
01:25:13:21 - 01:25:15:13
Kyle
Yeah.
01:25:15:15 - 01:25:35:17
Kyle
And and people like that with that kind of vision should deserve it. And who's willing to put in the work to, like, build and market a product like that? Should, should deserve the the the whole shebang. Like the money, the the the the the the pride of like building and launching a product like that, like there's something so valuable.
01:25:35:17 - 01:25:41:11
Kyle
And then I think, you know, having a level playing field where everybody can do that is is so important.
01:25:41:11 - 01:25:43:25
Michael
Yeah.
01:25:43:25 - 01:25:44:29
Michael
I don't know if everyone.
01:25:45:01 - 01:25:46:25
Michael
All right. I don't think you ever got rich.
01:25:46:25 - 01:25:48:09
Michael
But I think he.
01:25:48:12 - 01:25:54:00
Michael
You lived a perfectly good life. Yeah, very happy life. He he he lived out in Australia.
01:25:56:16 - 01:25:58:06
Michael
For, I don't know how many years.
01:25:58:08 - 01:26:05:08
Michael
Afterward before he died last year, he was, unexpected. That death was very sad. But, he also he started.
01:26:05:08 - 01:26:06:07
Michael
Just another side.
01:26:06:07 - 01:26:06:24
Michael
Really cool.
01:26:06:24 - 01:26:08:28
Michael
Got very involved in, like.
01:26:09:00 - 01:26:09:20
Michael
The protest.
01:26:09:20 - 01:26:10:27
Michael
Movement down there protecting.
01:26:10:27 - 01:26:11:14
Michael
Old growth.
01:26:11:14 - 01:26:13:25
Michael
Forest. And so he.
01:26:13:28 - 01:26:16:15
Michael
Collaborated with the protest.
01:26:16:15 - 01:26:18:23
Michael
Communities and designing all sorts of new.
01:26:18:28 - 01:26:19:14
Michael
Portal led.
01:26:19:14 - 01:26:20:03
Michael
Technology.
01:26:20:03 - 01:26:20:15
Michael
To use.
01:26:20:15 - 01:26:20:21
Michael
Down
01:26:21:11 - 01:26:26:03
Kyle
Wow.
01:26:26:06 - 01:26:28:28
Kyle
That's cool, that's cool.
01:26:29:00 - 01:26:39:13
Kyle
In your development of, some internal what was the hardest part about actually taking this idea and launching it into something that it is today?
01:26:41:19 - 01:26:42:24
Michael
I guess a couple things.
01:26:42:24 - 01:26:43:03
Michael
One is.
01:26:43:03 - 01:26:43:19
Michael
Just.
01:26:43:21 - 01:26:45:21
Michael
Having the.
01:26:45:24 - 01:26:49:00
Michael
The belief that it would that it wasn't just a fool's.
01:26:49:00 - 01:26:50:21
Michael
Errand, that it was going to be.
01:26:50:23 - 01:26:52:09
Michael
Complete
01:26:52:17 - 01:27:06:24
Kyle
That's that's the artist's dilemma, my friend. That is the artist's dilemma.
01:27:07:17 - 01:27:24:14
Kyle
Was there were real quick. Was there like a a, like an email list? Like, was there some sort of database of people that had subscribed to the journal before that you were able to market this new version to, or were you like scrapped?
01:27:24:21 - 01:27:25:03
Michael
Sadly.
01:27:25:03 - 01:27:25:29
Michael
The 1990.
01:27:25:29 - 01:27:26:08
Michael
Six.
01:27:26:08 - 01:27:27:15
Michael
Edition of the
01:27:28:01 - 01:27:29:20
Kyle
All the addresses were gone.
01:27:29:20 - 01:27:33:09
Michael
Yeah I hadn't I, I wish they had that because I remember the.
01:27:33:12 - 01:27:33:24
Michael
Mountain.
01:27:33:24 - 01:27:37:03
Michael
Gazette talking with the guy who resurrected that. Like he got.
01:27:37:03 - 01:27:40:14
Michael
An email list from the last time that one had published.
01:27:40:14 - 01:27:41:14
Michael
2012. So he.
01:27:41:14 - 01:27:42:18
Michael
Still had an email list of like.
01:27:42:18 - 01:27:42:25
Michael
For our.
01:27:43:01 - 01:27:44:04
Kyle
Yeah.
01:27:44:07 - 01:27:46:28
Kyle
Nothing like.
01:27:47:00 - 01:27:48:12
Kyle
Wow.
01:27:48:14 - 01:27:49:04
Kyle
Yeah, yeah.
01:27:49:28 - 01:27:51:15
Michael
So part of it was just.
01:27:51:15 - 01:27:55:03
Michael
You know, them like, oh my God, am I just.
01:27:55:05 - 01:27:56:08
Michael
Like throwing.
01:27:56:08 - 01:27:56:20
Michael
My like.
01:27:56:20 - 01:27:57:00
Michael
Well.
01:27:57:06 - 01:28:04:07
Michael
My, like the little money I'm putting into this down the drain and wasting my time and that, the.
01:28:04:07 - 01:28:05:19
Michael
Other was right.
01:28:05:21 - 01:28:08:13
Michael
I am in editor. I'm a.
01:28:08:13 - 01:28:09:18
Michael
Writer.
01:28:09:21 - 01:28:12:07
Michael
I've learned to be, a.
01:28:12:07 - 01:28:12:26
Michael
Publisher.
01:28:12:26 - 01:28:13:05
Michael
And.
01:28:13:12 - 01:28:14:25
Michael
Do that side of this stuff.
01:28:14:25 - 01:28:15:29
Michael
And and.
01:28:16:02 - 01:28:17:22
Michael
Be a bit of a business man. But I, I.
01:28:17:22 - 01:28:18:23
Michael
Don't know anything about.
01:28:18:24 - 01:28:21:16
Michael
I'm not like a logistics or tech guy.
01:28:21:18 - 01:28:22:04
Michael
And that's a.
01:28:22:04 - 01:28:23:04
Michael
Big part of it, too.
01:28:23:04 - 01:28:23:12
Michael
Right?
01:28:23:12 - 01:28:26:00
Michael
Needed a,
01:28:26:02 - 01:28:28:18
Michael
Customer facing,
01:28:28:21 - 01:28:29:11
Michael
Website.
01:28:29:11 - 01:28:33:25
Michael
And subscription service and all that. And.
01:28:33:27 - 01:28:34:13
Michael
So.
01:28:34:13 - 01:28:35:21
Michael
Finding,
01:28:35:23 - 01:28:36:22
Michael
People.
01:28:36:24 - 01:28:39:27
Michael
To work on that and help me with that. And,
01:28:39:29 - 01:28:49:02
Michael
Put it together was scary. Cool story. So right to having some.
01:28:49:04 - 01:28:50:05
Michael
Some a.
01:28:50:05 - 01:28:52:24
Michael
Bit of, crisis of.
01:28:52:24 - 01:28:56:00
Michael
Conscience, like, what the fuck am I doing? A couple months before.
01:28:56:00 - 01:28:56:18
Michael
I decided.
01:28:56:19 - 01:28:56:27
Michael
You know.
01:28:56:27 - 01:28:58:02
Michael
Before the date that I had said.
01:28:58:02 - 01:28:58:24
Michael
I was going to.
01:28:58:26 - 01:28:59:29
Michael
You know, go live with.
01:28:59:29 - 01:29:03:19
Michael
It, I, I went on a expedition to.
01:29:03:19 - 01:29:04:19
Michael
Alaska with my.
01:29:04:19 - 01:29:05:29
Michael
Friend John.
01:29:06:01 - 01:29:06:25
Michael
To.
01:29:06:27 - 01:29:08:23
Michael
It was a smash and grab trip.
01:29:08:23 - 01:29:13:08
Michael
Like we waited for the weather forecast. Looked good, bought tickets.
01:29:13:08 - 01:29:14:04
Michael
And flew out. The next.
01:29:14:04 - 01:29:15:00
Michael
Day.
01:29:15:03 - 01:29:18:09
Michael
We went to climb the moose's tooth. Right. Nothing. Nothing cutting edge.
01:29:18:09 - 01:29:19:08
Michael
But for us was going to.
01:29:19:08 - 01:29:21:16
Michael
Be a grand adventure. Got in.
01:29:21:16 - 01:29:22:24
Michael
There.
01:29:22:27 - 01:29:23:15
Michael
Flew in with this.
01:29:23:19 - 01:29:24:26
Michael
These two other guys.
01:29:25:02 - 01:29:32:07
Michael
Zach and John was on the same plane. Never met them. Everyone we climbed to the next day. They climbed to the next day. One party.
01:29:32:07 - 01:29:32:24
Michael
That was already.
01:29:32:24 - 01:29:36:05
Michael
There climb to the next day. That party was much faster than us.
01:29:36:05 - 01:29:36:23
Michael
So they flew.
01:29:36:23 - 01:29:39:10
Michael
Out, me and John. And then these other two.
01:29:39:10 - 01:29:40:03
Michael
Guys, the actual.
01:29:40:09 - 01:29:44:09
Michael
Dom, we ended up rappelling most.
01:29:44:09 - 01:29:45:24
Michael
Of the route together, and we had.
01:29:45:24 - 01:29:49:27
Michael
To sit on the glacier, you know, in our tents and camps for the next.
01:29:50:00 - 01:29:51:21
Michael
4 or 5 days, I think, because it was just.
01:29:51:21 - 01:30:00:25
Michael
Snowing again. And we ended up becoming really friendly with them, hung out in their tent, hung out in our kitchen and played cards.
01:30:00:27 - 01:30:03:15
Michael
Drank whiskey, you know.
01:30:03:17 - 01:30:05:10
Michael
And I told them at some point.
01:30:05:10 - 01:30:06:16
Michael
About.
01:30:06:18 - 01:30:09:12
Michael
My budding plans for summit.
01:30:09:15 - 01:30:13:19
Michael
Kind of sheepishly like, oh, God, I.
01:30:13:21 - 01:30:16:08
Michael
And,
01:30:16:11 - 01:30:17:26
Michael
You know, they were both, like.
01:30:17:27 - 01:30:22:07
Michael
Wow, that sounds really cool and good luck with it. And then the next day or something, Zach.
01:30:22:07 - 01:30:23:23
Michael
Who's, full stack web.
01:30:23:23 - 01:30:26:20
Michael
Developer and then, like, head of engineering at several startups.
01:30:26:20 - 01:30:27:14
Michael
And stuff like that, he was like.
01:30:27:14 - 01:30:33:10
Michael
Hey, man, if you ever need any help, you know, doing stuff with summit, I would love to be involved.
01:30:33:13 - 01:30:33:23
Michael
And so.
01:30:33:23 - 01:30:37:14
Michael
Then he ended up designing the whole website, and he's.
01:30:37:16 - 01:30:38:06
Michael
A director.
01:30:38:06 - 01:30:38:21
Michael
Of all things.
01:30:38:21 - 01:30:40:03
Michael
Digital.
01:30:40:05 - 01:30:42:26
Michael
Which is really cool. You know, like the.
01:30:42:28 - 01:30:43:23
Michael
How.
01:30:43:25 - 01:30:48:18
Michael
I couldn't imagine a better scenario than just meeting someone on a glacier and.
01:30:48:21 - 01:30:49:24
Michael
Now a.
01:30:49:26 - 01:30:51:13
Michael
Good friend and working
01:30:52:04 - 01:30:54:10
Kyle
Yeah. That's extremely serendipitous.
01:30:54:13 - 01:30:57:19
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.
01:30:57:22 - 01:31:00:13
Kyle
That's cool. Man. Was meant to. Meant to be.
01:31:00:13 - 01:31:02:17
Michael
seen those guys. All four of us hadn't been.
01:31:02:17 - 01:31:03:11
Michael
Together.
01:31:03:14 - 01:31:04:27
Michael
Since that time on the glacier.
01:31:04:27 - 01:31:05:04
Michael
Because.
01:31:05:04 - 01:31:05:21
Michael
We're all in different.
01:31:05:21 - 01:31:07:17
Michael
Places. But just earlier this week, we were.
01:31:07:17 - 01:31:11:15
Michael
All in, the Front Range, Colorado, and got together and.
01:31:11:18 - 01:31:12:11
Michael
Drank a bunch of beers.
01:31:15:15 - 01:31:23:25
Kyle
So, like the the crux there in terms of, like, getting this publication out there was the customer facing web platform that you had to build
01:31:23:25 - 01:31:25:07
Michael
that seems like a silly.
01:31:25:14 - 01:31:33:10
Michael
That's like the crux. The biggest thing is, like, you know, it's Field of dreams. Like, if you build it, will they
01:31:33:17 - 01:31:37:02
Kyle
Will they come just the the uncertainty.
01:31:37:04 - 01:31:38:06
Kyle
Yeah.
01:31:38:06 - 01:31:38:18
Michael
this thing.
01:31:38:18 - 01:31:39:03
Michael
I think.
01:31:39:08 - 01:31:40:02
Michael
This idea.
01:31:40:02 - 01:31:41:14
Michael
And I know I can.
01:31:41:17 - 01:31:46:25
Michael
Pull it off, I think. But do people actually want it? My hypothesis.
01:31:46:25 - 01:31:47:15
Michael
My working.
01:31:47:15 - 01:31:53:11
Michael
Theory was, yes, but it's still you got to get enough people to see it. You gotta you.
01:31:53:13 - 01:31:53:28
Michael
Get enough.
01:31:53:28 - 01:31:54:23
Michael
Visibility.
01:31:55:00 - 01:31:56:12
Michael
And convince people.
01:31:56:12 - 01:32:01:20
Michael
To, you know, say like, oh, I do want this to that. They're going to buy it because.
01:32:01:25 - 01:32:03:09
Michael
Obviously it costs money at the end of the day to
01:32:03:13 - 01:32:24:05
Kyle
Yeah. No. And and I was, I was going to say there's like some parallels here with this podcast, but I'm offering something for free. You know, you know, it's like, please listen to my free podcast. You know. And they even that's hard to do. Some people are fucking it's hard to convince people to do anything. And so to give it someone to buy, you know, how much is it?
01:32:24:05 - 01:32:26:02
Kyle
60 bucks.
01:32:26:04 - 01:32:27:06
Kyle
Yeah.
01:32:27:08 - 01:32:37:21
Kyle
I could imagine. It's. Yeah, I would say that's pretty reasonably priced though for, for what I received. Like, I mean, I'll just describe it for people like big what's the size. It's really big.
01:32:37:21 - 01:32:38:15
Michael
It's,
01:32:38:18 - 01:32:39:23
Michael
About ten by 13in.
01:32:39:23 - 01:32:48:19
Kyle
Yeah. So ten by 13 Matt finish. One thing I noticed right away when I opened is it smelled really good. Like really nice smell.
01:32:48:22 - 01:33:04:10
Kyle
And I really like the matte finish too. The, the the weight of the paper is nice. It's got a nice, like, feel and a sound when you turn the pages. Like, even if you try to, like, crease the center as you like, turn the pages. It doesn't actually, like, crease super hard. So really cool.
01:33:04:10 - 01:33:14:01
Kyle
High, high quality product. So honestly, to to to have heard the price of being 60 bucks, I'm like, wow. Like, this is, you know, well done keeping those margins low.
01:33:14:03 - 01:33:16:05
Kyle
Yeah. I mean,
01:33:16:05 - 01:33:19:04
Michael
another work you know just.
01:33:19:06 - 01:33:20:09
Michael
Working hypothesis to.
01:33:20:09 - 01:33:22:25
Michael
Me. Right. Like it's not
01:33:22:28 - 01:33:24:11
Michael
If the.
01:33:24:14 - 01:33:32:00
Michael
Stories and photography inside the magazine aren't any good. Like you could make the magazine as fancy and heavy and big as you want. Right.
01:33:32:00 - 01:33:34:03
Michael
It's still not worth 60 bucks or 100 bucks.
01:33:34:03 - 01:33:34:20
Michael
Or 20.
01:33:34:20 - 01:33:37:23
Michael
Bucks, but if you're going to fill it with really good.
01:33:37:25 - 01:33:38:24
Michael
Stories and really.
01:33:38:24 - 01:33:40:13
Michael
Good curated photography, which I.
01:33:40:13 - 01:33:42:27
Michael
Was intent on doing, I think I have done,
01:33:42:29 - 01:33:43:27
Michael
With the.
01:33:43:27 - 01:33:45:15
Michael
Help of my art director and the great.
01:33:45:15 - 01:33:47:22
Michael
Writers and fact.
01:33:47:25 - 01:33:49:02
Michael
Then you might as well.
01:33:49:02 - 01:33:53:18
Michael
Right? It deserves to be for the exterior and the actual.
01:33:53:20 - 01:33:57:17
Michael
Form to match what's inside. So I was really intent on making.
01:33:57:19 - 01:34:00:22
Michael
A beautiful product. So I got lots of.
01:34:00:22 - 01:34:07:25
Michael
Different quotes from lots of different printers, lots of different samples. And, yeah, I think.
01:34:07:28 - 01:34:08:03
Michael
There.
01:34:08:03 - 01:34:08:18
Michael
Is something.
01:34:08:18 - 01:34:09:19
Michael
To it. Right. Like if.
01:34:09:19 - 01:34:13:08
Michael
If you have a nice, beautiful magazine, people are more likely.
01:34:13:08 - 01:34:13:20
Michael
To keep.
01:34:13:20 - 01:34:16:25
Michael
It on their shelf. And read it again, which is the goal.
01:34:16:25 - 01:34:18:07
Michael
So like, I.
01:34:18:07 - 01:34:20:15
Michael
Have my own,
01:34:20:18 - 01:34:23:05
Michael
Bookshelf over here. Feels like I like to keep I.
01:34:23:05 - 01:34:24:10
Michael
Like print just in general.
01:34:24:10 - 01:34:24:22
Michael
Right. So I.
01:34:24:22 - 01:34:26:15
Michael
Got tons of books and, and.
01:34:26:15 - 01:34:28:05
Michael
Magazines and,
01:34:28:07 - 01:34:28:20
Michael
If they're nice
01:34:30:07 - 01:34:30:16
Kyle
Yeah.
01:34:30:24 - 01:34:54:10
Kyle
What's awesome, man, you've done a great job. And, you know, I, I've spent the last week or so in my busy schedule. Probably. I've gotten about two thirds of the way through, and. Yeah, just really cool writing great stories. Very unique. And, you know, one of the things that, you know, we talked about when I first, you know, did our meet and greet was like, you know, so, you know, are you are you interviewing the majority or, you know, are you doing pro athletes and stuff?
01:34:54:13 - 01:35:25:06
Kyle
And it's cool. You I think you have found this middle ground. It's like, yeah, sure. You've got, you know, some prolific, prolific people in there. But it's not it's not the same stories we've all heard. It's not the it's not the oh, you know, Adam Ondra climb to 515 C again. You know, it's like very intimate, detailed, reflections and stories into these people's lives that, you know, you would never otherwise know, very well, well written and visual stories and, you know, stuff from, from all over the world and stuff.
01:35:25:06 - 01:35:30:16
Kyle
It's really cool.
01:35:30:18 - 01:35:32:18
Kyle
That's, that's the next one.
01:35:32:20 - 01:35:37:28
Kyle
Yeah.
01:35:38:00 - 01:35:42:06
Kyle
That will really.
01:35:42:08 - 01:35:49:18
Kyle
Okay, cool. Yeah. I can't wait to jump into that one. Then.
01:35:49:20 - 01:35:54:09
Kyle
Like.
01:35:54:11 - 01:35:59:07
Kyle
Who? Eight times these days. Yeah.
01:35:59:07 - 01:36:00:19
Michael
know,
01:36:00:22 - 01:36:01:10
Michael
You know, it's.
01:36:01:10 - 01:36:05:26
Michael
Exploring like, is a climbing dead is a climbing still here? And.
01:36:05:28 - 01:36:06:20
Michael
You know, the.
01:36:06:20 - 01:36:10:18
Michael
Answer is much more complicated than that. Obviously, it's not completely dead.
01:36:10:21 - 01:36:15:16
Michael
But the basic answer is that it's, there's,
01:36:15:18 - 01:36:17:05
Michael
No, it's not, and.
01:36:17:08 - 01:36:21:25
Michael
There's a particular, it's particularly.
01:36:21:25 - 01:36:23:23
Michael
Vibrant among a few female.
01:36:23:23 - 01:36:24:13
Michael
Soloists.
01:36:24:13 - 01:36:24:24
Michael
Just doing
01:36:26:27 - 01:36:52:13
Kyle
Did you interview, Instagram gen photo, get any photo? Okay, I don't know. Yeah. She's in another country, but like, her Instagram blows up. She's just like tons of aid climbing stuff. She's always aid soloing. Yeah, horrifically cheesy rock. Yeah. I mean, it was like, what are you doing coming to Yosemite?
01:36:52:15 - 01:36:56:15
Kyle
I know it, just touch it, please.
01:36:56:18 - 01:36:56:25
Kyle
But.
01:36:56:25 - 01:36:58:11
Michael
it's a, it's
01:36:58:13 - 01:36:59:00
Michael
For.
01:36:59:00 - 01:37:01:15
Michael
Yeah. Anyone wondering like.
01:37:01:18 - 01:37:09:06
Michael
Why, you know, why would you read about a climbing? This is chimerical theory. It's really fun. It's really fun. It's about people you haven't heard of.
01:37:09:06 - 01:37:13:03
Michael
But there's also some big names in there because, you know, if you've ever listened to.
01:37:13:03 - 01:37:14:02
Michael
Chris Colossus aid.
01:37:14:02 - 01:37:14:15
Michael
Climbing.
01:37:14:15 - 01:37:15:08
Michael
Ramps, we talk.
01:37:15:08 - 01:37:15:18
Michael
To him a.
01:37:15:18 - 01:37:17:05
Michael
Lot for it. Yeah.
01:37:17:08 - 01:37:19:19
Michael
And he's got some some new insights, I think, in there.
01:37:20:17 - 01:37:23:13
Kyle
Nice. Very cool.
01:37:23:13 - 01:37:24:00
Michael
Hum. Yeah.
01:37:24:01 - 01:37:25:03
Michael
I think.
01:37:25:05 - 01:37:28:18
Michael
You know, the original.
01:37:28:21 - 01:37:30:02
Michael
Summit magazine.
01:37:30:05 - 01:37:35:13
Michael
Had this really egalitarian ethos of.
01:37:35:15 - 01:37:39:27
Michael
Again, that the biggest names of the day next to.
01:37:39:29 - 01:37:43:01
Michael
People writing about their backpacking trip.
01:37:43:01 - 01:37:43:17
Michael
And so.
01:37:43:17 - 01:37:48:15
Michael
I definitely want to keep that vibe alive.
01:37:48:15 - 01:37:50:09
Michael
In, in the current in the current summit
01:37:51:00 - 01:38:13:10
Kyle
For sure. Man, there's so many stories out there. And it's just going to continue to expand as as more and more people step into this world of of climbing and continue to do just like epic, epic stuff. Yeah. That's rad. Well, cool, man, I want to close this out with just like a couple of reflective questions, if that's cool with you.
01:38:13:12 - 01:38:45:16
Kyle
So when you're like, as a, as a journalist, as a writer, I feel like there might be two different ways to go. Like a fluff piece, that you might like, consider admiration versus, like, a critical reflection or a kind of a judgment piece or something that's controversial. How do you like, do you do you see those two things in terms of how you can kind of write a piece and how do you kind of balance those two things, or do you stick mostly towards just like trying to find the truth and share the truth as it is?
01:38:45:18 - 01:38:46:15
Kyle
Yeah.
01:38:46:15 - 01:38:47:03
Michael
you.
01:38:47:06 - 01:38:48:11
Michael
Landed there at the end is.
01:38:48:11 - 01:38:50:08
Michael
Key, right? Like, for a lot of.
01:38:50:08 - 01:38:52:06
Michael
Journalism climbing or otherwise.
01:38:52:06 - 01:38:54:26
Michael
Right. Like the, big pitfall.
01:38:54:26 - 01:39:00:29
Michael
Is going in with a preconceived notion. Unless you're writing an an opinion piece. Right? An opinion piece. Right.
01:39:00:29 - 01:39:01:25
Michael
You probably have a.
01:39:01:28 - 01:39:04:27
Michael
A firm, strong view on something and you're.
01:39:04:27 - 01:39:06:24
Michael
Arguing for it. But for a reported.
01:39:06:24 - 01:39:11:10
Michael
Piece, you may have some thoughts on how it's going to turn out.
01:39:11:12 - 01:39:12:00
Michael
But if you.
01:39:12:00 - 01:39:19:27
Michael
Don't keep your mind open to, you know, being having your mind changed, you may.
01:39:19:27 - 01:39:20:25
Michael
Be.
01:39:20:27 - 01:39:21:15
Michael
Missing the.
01:39:21:15 - 01:39:22:15
Michael
Forest for the trees, right?
01:39:22:15 - 01:39:27:05
Michael
Like you get some tunnel vision. But then again, I.
01:39:27:05 - 01:39:31:14
Michael
Do think fluff pieces are often boring.
01:39:31:14 - 01:39:34:19
Kyle
Boring or boring? Boring.
01:39:34:19 - 01:39:35:19
Kyle
Yeah.
01:39:35:19 - 01:39:37:29
Michael
I'm, I'm all for a good, fun profile.
01:39:37:29 - 01:39:39:08
Michael
That.
01:39:39:10 - 01:39:40:11
Michael
Is, you know.
01:39:40:13 - 01:39:44:04
Michael
Not everything has to be a hit piece or controversial or whatever, but.
01:39:44:07 - 01:39:45:11
Michael
There's got to be tension in any.
01:39:45:11 - 01:39:47:03
Michael
Piece to to give it some.
01:39:47:10 - 01:39:49:11
Michael
Some meat, something to dig into and keep you.
01:39:49:11 - 01:39:51:22
Michael
Wanting to read. Right. So.
01:39:51:24 - 01:39:56:13
Michael
You always got to kind of find those pressure points and push out them a little bit, even if it's.
01:39:56:13 - 01:39:57:00
Michael
A.
01:39:57:02 - 01:39:58:18
Michael
Admiration, you know, piece.
01:39:58:18 - 01:39:59:17
Michael
That's, you know.
01:39:59:19 - 01:40:00:03
Michael
Very
01:40:00:29 - 01:40:03:02
Kyle
Yeah.
01:40:03:05 - 01:40:37:28
Kyle
You know, you're independent now, and so you get to create your own stories, and you get to kind of be the one calling the shots in your journey up to that point. Had you ever been in a position where you had, maybe, you know, someone above you kind of like, I need you to write a piece that, like, has this specific purpose, to paint this person in a specific light or talk about this topic in a specific way so that our magazine looks and has this particular narrative, like, did you ever get into that kind of dilemma as a writer where you were forced, your hand was forced, or anything like that?
01:40:38:17 - 01:40:42:18
Michael
Yeah, I think so. Probably, I'm I'm struggling to think of.
01:40:42:18 - 01:40:43:13
Michael
Like, specific.
01:40:43:21 - 01:40:45:15
Michael
Scenarios or instances.
01:40:45:15 - 01:40:46:05
Michael
Because.
01:40:46:07 - 01:40:47:04
Michael
I don't think any of them were.
01:40:47:04 - 01:40:48:19
Michael
Truly if if.
01:40:48:19 - 01:40:50:15
Michael
They happened. Right. Weighty enough.
01:40:50:15 - 01:40:53:22
Michael
Or.
01:40:53:25 - 01:40:57:14
Michael
Didn't require me to compromise values in any significant way was maybe.
01:40:57:14 - 01:40:59:23
Michael
Just like, like, fuck, I'll write this or.
01:40:59:26 - 01:41:03:00
Michael
It doesn't matter. It wasn't clearly it wasn't consequential enough.
01:41:03:03 - 01:41:03:27
Michael
But.
01:41:04:22 - 01:41:05:04
Michael
Sure.
01:41:05:05 - 01:41:10:28
Michael
Like I think, or.
01:41:11:00 - 01:41:12:00
Michael
Here's a little thing.
01:41:12:00 - 01:41:15:21
Michael
Right. This isn't exactly.
01:41:15:24 - 01:41:17:00
Michael
It's not like hard hitting.
01:41:17:00 - 01:41:17:17
Michael
Journalism.
01:41:17:17 - 01:41:20:10
Michael
Or whatever, but.
01:41:20:12 - 01:41:21:24
Michael
All the climbing magazines, right?
01:41:21:24 - 01:41:24:03
Michael
That I don't cover gear and Summit Journal.
01:41:24:03 - 01:41:26:20
Michael
We don't do any gear reviews. And this isn't.
01:41:26:22 - 01:41:27:16
Michael
Exactly what.
01:41:27:16 - 01:41:28:18
Michael
You're saying about.
01:41:28:18 - 01:41:30:21
Michael
Like, where you did. You have to do.
01:41:30:21 - 01:41:32:02
Michael
Something you didn't want to do.
01:41:32:02 - 01:41:38:00
Michael
Right? But, like, no, any gear of the. It was all.
01:41:38:29 - 01:41:42:22
Kyle
It's like a glorified ad placement or something.
01:41:42:24 - 01:41:43:14
Kyle
Yeah.
01:41:43:14 - 01:41:44:12
Kyle
Okay.
01:41:44:12 - 01:41:45:27
Michael
You someone buys an ad, you.
01:41:45:27 - 01:41:46:24
Michael
Scratch their back.
01:41:47:25 - 01:42:00:17
Michael
And there's a reason you never see bad, bad gear reviews. Because if it's bad, you just don't review it. Like the when I want good honest gear reviews, I go to a place like Outdoor Gear Lab, right. That buys all their own gear
01:42:00:29 - 01:42:05:03
Kyle
How not to.
01:42:06:01 - 01:42:08:04
Kyle
Yeah. Ryan Jenks is a man. Yeah.
01:42:08:04 - 01:42:13:00
Michael
Or the wirecutter. Right. Like places that have.
01:42:13:03 - 01:42:14:24
Michael
Integrity in the gear reviews and so.
01:42:14:24 - 01:42:16:06
Michael
That that's.
01:42:16:08 - 01:42:17:23
Michael
Given, you.
01:42:17:23 - 01:42:18:08
Michael
Also get free.
01:42:18:08 - 01:42:19:06
Michael
Gear when you're doing those.
01:42:19:06 - 01:42:21:17
Michael
Gear reviews. So that's nice.
01:42:21:19 - 01:42:25:09
Michael
But that's just one example. And for me and some a journal rate, rather than do.
01:42:25:09 - 01:42:25:21
Michael
That, I just.
01:42:25:26 - 01:42:26:10
Michael
Don't do.
01:42:26:10 - 01:42:27:09
Michael
Gear reviews like.
01:42:27:12 - 01:42:29:08
Michael
Brands. I want them to be in the magazine.
01:42:29:09 - 01:42:30:02
Michael
Supported with.
01:42:30:02 - 01:42:30:28
Michael
Advertising because.
01:42:30:28 - 01:42:31:12
Michael
They believe.
01:42:31:12 - 01:42:31:27
Michael
In.
01:42:32:00 - 01:42:33:05
Michael
The spirit of.
01:42:33:07 - 01:42:36:29
Michael
And the importance of journalism, the climbing space. And thus.
01:42:36:29 - 01:42:37:25
Michael
Far they have, which is.
01:42:37:25 - 01:42:42:25
Michael
Great, and I'm proud to have them in there. But they know at present at least that they're not getting.
01:42:42:29 - 01:42:45:04
Michael
Your fees out of it because I don't run them.
01:42:45:07 - 01:42:45:25
Michael
It just seems like a.
01:42:45:25 - 01:42:46:22
Michael
Waste of.
01:42:49:12 - 01:43:09:27
Kyle
That makes sense for sure. More of like an online article like top ten gear that I use this year. Yeah. Let's save it for the blogs. What about stories that you feel are missing from the climbing world in the space of the media today, and whether that could be something that you're striving to share yourself, or that you just feel like are missing in general.
01:43:12:29 - 01:43:13:20
Michael
That's another one.
01:43:13:20 - 01:43:14:14
Michael
It's it's a.
01:43:14:14 - 01:43:19:15
Michael
Good question and one that,
01:43:19:17 - 01:43:22:06
Michael
So.
01:43:22:08 - 01:43:22:25
Michael
It's more of a.
01:43:22:25 - 01:43:24:13
Michael
Type of story rather.
01:43:24:13 - 01:43:30:12
Michael
Than,
01:43:30:15 - 01:43:34:04
Michael
The way the story is approached rather than what it's about, I guess I think
01:43:34:04 - 01:43:38:02
Michael
my favorite kind of journalism is.
01:43:38:04 - 01:43:41:17
Michael
In The New Yorker. I love The New Yorker magazine. And they.
01:43:41:17 - 01:43:44:13
Michael
Have a lot of these pieces that are concept.
01:43:44:20 - 01:43:45:19
Michael
Driven and based.
01:43:45:19 - 01:43:50:20
Michael
Versus, story focused or character focused. Right?
01:43:50:20 - 01:43:52:13
Michael
So that doesn't mean there's not.
01:43:52:15 - 01:43:53:16
Michael
Really good character.
01:43:53:16 - 01:43:57:06
Michael
And story involved, but it's not just a narrative, and it's not just a.
01:43:57:06 - 01:43:59:21
Michael
Profile. It's exploring.
01:43:59:21 - 01:44:00:12
Michael
Some.
01:44:00:12 - 01:44:03:03
Michael
Question or issue of the day through.
01:44:03:03 - 01:44:04:18
Michael
Interest, a compelling character.
01:44:04:18 - 01:44:04:27
Michael
Or.
01:44:04:28 - 01:44:06:26
Michael
A compelling story.
01:44:06:28 - 01:44:09:04
Michael
Right. Like it seems maybe it.
01:44:09:04 - 01:44:09:25
Michael
Sounds very.
01:44:09:25 - 01:44:15:06
Michael
Obvious or clear, but there's lots of great stories out there.
01:44:15:06 - 01:44:16:17
Michael
But finding stories.
01:44:16:17 - 01:44:17:14
Michael
That are.
01:44:17:15 - 01:44:21:22
Michael
Addressing something.
01:44:21:24 - 01:44:23:27
Michael
That.
01:44:23:29 - 01:44:26:02
Michael
Has relevance.
01:44:26:09 - 01:44:27:05
Michael
To us.
01:44:27:07 - 01:44:28:22
Michael
Today in some particular.
01:44:28:22 - 01:44:30:01
Michael
Way is harder.
01:44:30:04 - 01:44:32:17
Michael
And so I'm really trying to find those stories.
01:44:32:17 - 01:44:32:27
Michael
Which are.
01:44:32:27 - 01:44:35:28
Michael
Against it's easier said than done. But,
01:44:36:00 - 01:44:37:21
Michael
Like that, that piece about gear.
01:44:37:21 - 01:44:39:17
Michael
Innovation that was talking about for me, that.
01:44:39:17 - 01:44:41:19
Michael
Felt like a really great success.
01:44:41:19 - 01:44:42:04
Michael
On that front.
01:44:42:04 - 01:44:45:24
Michael
Because we had really cool characters, really good story.
01:44:45:24 - 01:44:46:11
Michael
Adventure and.
01:44:46:11 - 01:44:47:27
Michael
Stuff. But it was like, what's.
01:44:47:29 - 01:44:48:17
Michael
What's going on in
01:44:49:09 - 01:44:57:29
Kyle
There's like a bigger topic to be shared about. And you're using the profiles and the stories to back up the, the initial point in, in the first place.
01:44:58:02 - 01:45:00:04
Kyle
Yeah.
01:45:00:04 - 01:45:05:09
Michael
We have pure narrative adventure pieces like they all have a place. But that other.
01:45:05:09 - 01:45:08:09
Michael
Kind of article I think is harder to find and.
01:45:08:09 - 01:45:09:18
Michael
To do so.
01:45:10:19 - 01:45:12:02
Michael
Yeah, I would say that.
01:45:12:07 - 01:45:29:15
Kyle
Nice. Hell yeah I can they have it resonate. That will resonate with that for sure. What about any advice you have for young climbers who would like to be a journalist or would like to contribute in that way to the climbing space?
01:45:29:25 - 01:45:30:18
Michael
Thing is just.
01:45:30:20 - 01:45:32:07
Michael
You know.
01:45:32:09 - 01:45:36:12
Michael
You got to write like go do it, journal, write a blog.
01:45:36:15 - 01:45:40:24
Michael
Write long emails to friends and families when you're on a trip or something.
01:45:40:27 - 01:45:43:08
Michael
It's like,
01:45:43:11 - 01:45:44:00
Michael
The one thing.
01:45:44:00 - 01:45:45:02
Michael
I do get pitches.
01:45:45:02 - 01:45:46:20
Michael
Sometimes,
01:45:46:22 - 01:45:48:09
Michael
From people who clearly aren't writers.
01:45:48:09 - 01:45:51:07
Michael
Right. And,
01:45:51:09 - 01:45:54:18
Michael
You don't have to be a, like a journalist as a professional career to be.
01:45:54:21 - 01:45:55:15
Michael
Publishing a magazine.
01:45:55:15 - 01:45:56:01
Michael
But like.
01:45:56:06 - 01:45:57:04
Michael
Like anything else, it's a.
01:45:57:04 - 01:45:57:27
Michael
Skill that.
01:45:58:00 - 01:45:58:15
Michael
You know, you.
01:45:58:16 - 01:45:59:04
Michael
Get better.
01:45:59:04 - 01:46:01:04
Michael
At in practice. And it's a muscle that.
01:46:01:04 - 01:46:04:21
Michael
If you don't use it at after fees. Right. So.
01:46:04:23 - 01:46:07:27
Michael
Don't don't expect you to say like, I want to be a climbing journalist.
01:46:07:27 - 01:46:08:05
Michael
Like.
01:46:08:05 - 01:46:08:27
Michael
Climb and have.
01:46:08:27 - 01:46:09:26
Michael
Good stories.
01:46:09:28 - 01:46:10:10
Michael
You got.
01:46:10:10 - 01:46:13:17
Michael
You got write. So if you want to be a writer, you should practice.
01:46:13:17 - 01:46:13:27
Michael
And.
01:46:14:01 - 01:46:18:02
Michael
Write it. You should pitch people. You should pitch me. Should pitch the climbing scene.
01:46:18:03 - 01:46:23:21
Michael
Alpinist. And you should think about.
01:46:23:23 - 01:46:35:09
Michael
What stories you can write, whether from a personal perspective or out there that are different. Right. Like, there's a lot I get a lot of pitches about, you know.
01:46:38:27 - 01:46:40:01
Michael
How this project.
01:46:40:01 - 01:46:43:28
Michael
Changed me or,
01:46:44:00 - 01:46:45:28
Michael
Trying to think just like.
01:46:46:01 - 01:46:48:06
Michael
Climbing stories you've read 100 times and some of.
01:46:48:06 - 01:46:49:03
Michael
Them are very good, right?
01:46:49:03 - 01:46:51:12
Michael
But I'm not looking to publish the 100.
01:46:51:12 - 01:46:53:05
Michael
First story about.
01:46:53:05 - 01:46:56:23
Michael
Something. So, you know.
01:46:57:12 - 01:47:03:17
Kyle
Would you say you get a lot of submissions of people writing about themselves versus other people?
01:47:03:19 - 01:47:06:07
Kyle
Yes, a lot of people.
01:47:07:12 - 01:47:12:03
Kyle
I would imagine that is not great.
01:47:12:05 - 01:47:19:29
Kyle
I mean, for me.
01:47:20:01 - 01:47:28:19
Kyle
Yeah.
01:47:29:00 - 01:47:29:28
Michael
Some people would probably.
01:47:29:28 - 01:47:30:16
Michael
Disagree.
01:47:30:16 - 01:47:31:12
Michael
With me, but maybe I'm.
01:47:31:12 - 01:47:33:20
Michael
Just very particular about
01:47:33:20 - 01:47:48:04
Kyle
I would imagine, like the the writing about yourself is so much to the ego that it would be really hard to remove that from your writing and in the narrative that you have for yourself.
01:47:48:06 - 01:47:54:08
Kyle
And a lot of. Yeah,
01:47:54:08 - 01:47:55:29
Michael
and,
01:47:56:01 - 01:47:58:00
Michael
You know, it's always got to show, don't tell.
01:48:00:01 - 01:48:03:05
Michael
writers. Don't show, don't tell.
01:48:03:07 - 01:48:04:09
Michael
Give me a scene.
01:48:04:09 - 01:48:13:16
Kyle
Find a story. Yeah.
01:48:13:19 - 01:48:30:18
Kyle
Hell yeah. Let's see what's next. One. Where do you want to take some at next like you've gotten? It seems like you got in your stride. You've gotten some publications out. You're like 2 or 3 years in, you got a vision for the future. What's next?
01:48:31:21 - 01:48:32:08
Michael
I want.
01:48:32:08 - 01:48:34:15
Michael
To.
01:48:34:18 - 01:48:35:02
Michael
Still make.
01:48:35:02 - 01:48:37:03
Michael
The book a little bigger.
01:48:37:12 - 01:48:40:03
Kyle
Bigger as in, like, thicker or bigger.
01:48:40:03 - 01:48:48:09
Michael
first two issues, 132 pages, 148. Next one. If all goes well, I'll also be 148.
01:48:48:11 - 01:48:49:05
Michael
I'd like to maybe.
01:48:49:05 - 01:48:51:17
Michael
Go bigger than that. I don't know, let's see.
01:48:51:19 - 01:48:52:23
Michael
If I can find enough good.
01:48:52:23 - 01:48:53:11
Michael
Stuff to fill.
01:48:53:11 - 01:48:56:11
Michael
It with. And if it doesn't kill me,
01:48:56:13 - 01:48:57:02
Michael
I'd like to.
01:48:57:06 - 01:49:03:15
Michael
Continue to pay my writers and photographers even better. I think we're, paying probably.
01:49:03:15 - 01:49:03:23
Michael
The best.
01:49:03:23 - 01:49:05:16
Michael
Rates in the industry right now.
01:49:05:18 - 01:49:11:00
Michael
So that's good. I'm pretty proud of that. And they all deserve more. Even.
01:49:11:07 - 01:49:12:29
Michael
Even still.
01:49:13:02 - 01:49:16:19
Michael
I'd like to experiment. Like.
01:49:16:21 - 01:49:18:15
Michael
Print is always going to be the bread and butter.
01:49:18:15 - 01:49:18:22
Michael
And what.
01:49:18:27 - 01:49:19:19
Michael
We're doing it.
01:49:19:25 - 01:49:21:01
Michael
For.
01:49:21:04 - 01:49:27:15
Michael
And really long form storytelling. But, you know, six months in between magazines is a lot, so find.
01:49:27:15 - 01:49:29:04
Michael
Ways to.
01:49:29:07 - 01:49:29:26
Michael
Continue the.
01:49:29:26 - 01:49:31:19
Michael
Storytelling in other.
01:49:31:21 - 01:49:36:23
Michael
Multimedia. So dipping my toes into, again,
01:49:36:25 - 01:49:39:11
Michael
Not to create more video that is.
01:49:39:14 - 01:49:39:25
Michael
You know.
01:49:39:25 - 01:49:44:25
Michael
Just adding to the video, the videos we were talking about earlier, but.
01:49:44:25 - 01:49:49:26
Michael
Different kinds of videos, that are, you know, filling a void out there, I think. So I made.
01:49:49:26 - 01:49:50:19
Michael
A short video that.
01:49:50:19 - 01:49:51:13
Michael
Tied in with.
01:49:51:13 - 01:50:04:26
Michael
A piece, a story from the first issue. Oh, I have some book. Projects. In the.
01:50:04:29 - 01:50:06:20
Michael
Pipeline that are long term.
01:50:06:20 - 01:50:07:12
Michael
So keep.
01:50:07:12 - 01:50:07:21
Michael
An eye.
01:50:07:21 - 01:50:08:10
Michael
Out for those.
01:50:08:10 - 01:50:08:22
Michael
I think that'll.
01:50:08:22 - 01:50:09:15
Michael
Be pretty exciting.
01:50:09:15 - 01:50:12:08
Michael
So yeah, just kind of developing the Summit Journal.
01:50:12:09 - 01:50:13:00
Michael
Ecosystem.
01:50:13:00 - 01:50:13:09
Michael
Again.
01:50:13:09 - 01:50:15:11
Michael
Summit Journal itself was always.
01:50:15:11 - 01:50:20:09
Michael
Going to be 99% the focus. But got it.
01:50:20:15 - 01:50:21:05
Michael
And I
01:50:23:23 - 01:50:24:19
Kyle
Cool.
01:50:24:22 - 01:50:39:10
Kyle
Awesome. And I'm psyched. I'm psyched to see it all happen and all unfold over the over the next coming months and years. Where can, where can people follow you? Where can people find your stuff? How can people get into this summer journal and get it on their coffee tables?
01:50:39:13 - 01:50:40:16
Kyle
Yeah.
01:50:40:16 - 01:50:42:20
Michael
straightforward.
01:50:42:22 - 01:50:44:17
Michael
Summit journal.com.
01:50:44:19 - 01:50:45:28
Michael
That's where.
01:50:45:29 - 01:50:46:23
Michael
You can.
01:50:46:25 - 01:50:47:15
Michael
Subscribe.
01:50:47:15 - 01:50:50:18
Michael
To the magazine. We don't, sell.
01:50:50:18 - 01:50:53:15
Michael
Individual copies, right? Because it's all about.
01:50:53:18 - 01:50:54:07
Michael
Building.
01:50:55:26 - 01:50:59:00
Michael
A strong community and keeping people coming back.
01:50:59:00 - 01:51:03:00
Michael
So you you have to subscribe, and you get two issues for the year.
01:51:03:02 - 01:51:04:00
Michael
Summit journal.com.
01:51:04:00 - 01:51:07:18
Michael
It's pretty easy to find. We have a,
01:51:07:21 - 01:51:08:18
Michael
A good Instagram.
01:51:08:18 - 01:51:09:16
Michael
Page.
01:51:09:18 - 01:51:11:11
Michael
Summit at summit Dot.
01:51:11:11 - 01:51:15:28
Michael
Journal. Where ts articles, post photos.
01:51:15:28 - 01:51:16:17
Michael
From the mag.
01:51:16:17 - 01:51:27:12
Michael
Occasionally run some great giveaways and sweepstakes. We just wrapped up a sweepstakes where we gave away a trip to Spain, guided climbing trip to Spain for two people.
01:51:27:12 - 01:51:28:12
Michael
Along with another.
01:51:28:12 - 01:51:31:08
Michael
6000 bucks a gear. So you know, good.
01:51:31:12 - 01:51:32:11
Michael
Good, fun things.
01:51:32:11 - 01:51:32:27
Michael
Like that to.
01:51:32:27 - 01:51:35:04
Michael
Win.
01:51:35:07 - 01:51:38:08
Michael
And yeah, if you if you subscribe to.
01:51:38:08 - 01:51:39:11
Michael
Our email newsletter.
01:51:39:11 - 01:51:41:15
Michael
On our site, we.
01:51:41:18 - 01:51:47:29
Michael
End up with some, some, original content in the newsletters and all.
01:51:47:29 - 01:51:48:17
Michael
That other stuff.
01:51:48:17 - 01:51:52:25
Michael
I was just talking about teasers and giveaways and stuff, and some cool merch and stuff.
01:51:52:25 - 01:51:54:24
Michael
So be sure to subscribe.
01:51:54:24 - 01:51:54:27
Michael
To
01:51:56:14 - 01:52:18:08
Kyle
Cool. Awesome. You heard it from Michael. Everybody go get, go get your own copy. I got one of my own, and I can't wait to finish it. So, appreciate appreciate what you do. You're the, physical print version of this show in a way. So I like to have you on and kind of continue, represent, you know, the the climbing majority here.
01:52:18:10 - 01:52:22:12
Kyle
So I appreciate you being here.
01:52:22:14 - 01:52:24:06
Kyle
Hell, yeah. Dude. Awesome.
01:52:25:18 - 01:52:45:25
Kyle
That's it for today's episode, everyone. Thank you so much for being here. Be sure to check out the Summer journal's website to learn more about this publication. And if you're interested to pick up a copy of your own. Remember the first 15 listeners that sign up for an annual subscription to the Summer Journal? Get a free hat. You can find the link in our show notes, or go to the Summit journal.com, and be sure to use the code TCM at checkout.
01:52:45:27 - 01:52:58:21
Kyle
Stay tuned for our next episode, where I get to sit down with Michael Vail and Tanner Wallace to discuss their harrowing close call in the Alps and their most recent achievement, the Goliath Traverse. See you in two weeks.
