99 | Beyond Chasing Grades w/ Tal Wanish Part 2

We kick things off by diving into the nuances of Totems—what their limitations are, whether they’re as good as everyone says, and whether the mystical powers of the black Totem are fact or fiction. From there, we dig into climbing partnerships: what to look for, what to avoid, and how we can all be better partners. Tal shares two of his closest calls in the mountains and how they shaped his evolving relationship with risk. And then, we shift to Tal’s true passion: Wonderland.

A 5 sqmi area southwest of Denver, CO that Tal has been developing for the last three years. While only a handful of first routes were developed in the area back in the 2000s by Jay Vonesh… Tal and his community has now since added well over 200 routes across numerous of the countless rock formations that litter the forested area. While it is a slab climber's paradise. Wonderland has something to offer for just about everyone with cracks, slabs, face climbs, and a variety of high quality bouldering. Expect to find this area littered with raspberries, mushrooms, owl pellets, bones, deer/elk scat, oddly friendly magpies, unnerving signs of big cats, great views, and a lot of solitude.

For Tal, developing a climbing area is far more meaningful than any single route. He believes you need to “hear the song” of a place before you can truly develop it. The more intimately familiar you are with the rocks, the plants, the wildlife, the rhythm of the land—the better developer you become. A beautiful, poetic reflection of the depth and care Tal brings to this sport and his community.

If you stoked about visiting Wonderland be sure to pick up a copy of the guidebook Tal made for the area. You can do so with the link in the episode show notes. Tal also invites anyone interested in meeting the local community to reach out! You’ll find Tal’s IG link below as well. 

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Resources

Tal's IG

Buy The Guidebook to Wonderland

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 3:04 Totems
• 27:47 Race to 5.13
• 37:36 Risk Management
• 1:07:10 Notable FA's & Developing Wonderland
• 1:25:52 Closing

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:24
Kyle
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.

00:00:09:26 - 00:00:14:17
Kyle
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.

00:00:14:17 - 00:00:36:19
Kyle
Surprise! I am breaking my biweekly structure for this episode only, so that you don't have to wait another week to finish listening to my conversation with talented. If you missed part one. I highly recommend going back before continuing here. I've got to be honest, being the one behind the screen real, listening to and creating these episodes is one of my favorite parts about this project.

00:00:36:22 - 00:00:58:00
Kyle
It gives me the opportunity to pay closer attention to the guest. I pick up on. Subtle things totally missed during the interview, and I get to reconnect with the guest. Usually weeks after the recording date. Diving back into these topics, hearing the guest stories for a second time really deepens my reflections, my understandings and connection not only to the guest, but to this project as a whole.

00:00:58:02 - 00:01:18:23
Kyle
Creating this episode would tell, was particularly rewarding. We kick things off by diving into the nuances of totems, what their limitations are, whether they're as good as everybody says, and whether the mystical powers of the Black Totem are fact or fiction. From there, we dig into climbing partnerships what to look for, what to avoid, and how we can all be better partners for each other.

00:01:18:25 - 00:01:39:02
Kyle
Tal also shares two of his closest calls in the mountains, and how they shaped his ever evolving relationship with risk. And then we shift into Taos. True passion Wonderland, a five square mile area southwest of Denver, Colorado that Tal has been developing for the last three years. While only a handful of first routes were developed in the area back in the early 2000.

00:01:39:02 - 00:02:09:00
Kyle
As my J varnish Talent is Community have now since added well over 200 routes across the numerous rock formations that litter the forested area. While it is a slab, climbers Paradise, Wonderland has something to offer for just about everyone, with cracks, slabs, face climbs and a variety of high quality bouldering. Expect to find this area littered with raspberries, mushrooms, owl pellets, bones, oddly friendly magpies, unnerving signs of big cats, great views and a lot of solitude.

00:02:09:03 - 00:02:32:24
Kyle
For towel, developing a climbing area is more meaningful than any single route. He believes that you need to hear the song of a place before you can truly develop it. The more intimately familiar you are with the rocks, the plants, the wildlife, the rhythm of the land, the better developer you become. It's a beautiful and poetic reflection of the depth and care that tile brings to his sport and his community.

00:02:32:26 - 00:02:52:21
Kyle
If you're stoked about visiting Wonderland, be sure to pick up a copy of the guidebook tailor made for the area. You can do so with the link in the episode. Show notes. Tal also invites anyone interested in meeting the local community to reach out. You'll find tells Instagram link below as well. So without further ado, I bring you part two of my conversation with tortoise.

00:03:04:24 - 00:03:23:15
Kyle
in regards to, I think, our specific situation on how we first interacted on, on the internet, I think is actually really interesting. And, and I think, you know, besides the, the confrontational nature of it, which I think is hilarious to be sitting down with you now in this circumstances, I want to dive into totems just a tiny bit.

00:03:23:18 - 00:03:42:28
Kyle
I think they're a really interesting topic. I think that people put way more trust in them than they should. So I'm going to lay out kind of what I, the pitfalls I find in totems. And I'd like to hear your, your, feedback and push back on and maybe or agreeance on any of my, beliefs.

00:03:42:28 - 00:04:03:28
Kyle
So they're a stemless cam. And so you have wires that are on either side. Some of them are trigger wires and some of them are load bearing wires. The wires that are load bearing go all the way down to the clip and points that are attached to the leash. And the unique thing about totems is that they're you can load them on either side because there's no center of stem.

00:04:04:00 - 00:04:24:22
Kyle
And I'd say the first, the first major misconception is that people think that you can place just one lobe, one set of lobes of a totem, and it's rated for a dynamic fall. To my understanding, it's a static weight only, while some smaller climbers like 145 pounds of like, yeah, I've whipped on two lobes on a totem and it's been fine.

00:04:24:22 - 00:04:40:07
Kyle
It's like, I don't think that's good information for most people. Like I weigh 235 with the rack. I'm not whipping on two lobes of a totem. So let's talk about the just the general structure of a totem. Do you agree with how that's built? And that first step of a misconception with totems?

00:04:40:07 - 00:04:43:15
Tal Wanish
like, totems work for two lobes. I mean, generally.

00:04:43:15 - 00:04:45:00
Tal Wanish
I think a lot of the totem lovers come

00:04:49:04 - 00:04:50:28
Tal Wanish
a lot of things won't even hold body weight.

00:04:51:00 - 00:04:52:14
Tal Wanish
Like, yeah, you can do body.

00:04:52:14 - 00:04:53:12
Tal Wanish
Weight placements on two.

00:04:53:12 - 00:04:56:08
Tal Wanish
Lobes. Totems. You do have to be careful about what you clip it, because the.

00:04:56:11 - 00:04:58:24
Tal Wanish
The swing of a totem is kind of like an anchor.

00:04:58:29 - 00:05:02:07
Tal Wanish
And so if you only have two lobes, you shouldn't just clip into the normal clip and point.

00:05:02:07 - 00:05:04:15
Tal Wanish
You should just clip on that side things like that.

00:05:04:15 - 00:05:07:16
Tal Wanish
But yeah, I for sure don't want to whip on a totem with two

00:05:10:13 - 00:05:12:29
Kyle
Yeah, exactly.

00:05:13:01 - 00:05:13:10
Kyle
Yeah.

00:05:13:10 - 00:05:40:17
Kyle
Good to know. What about so the from my experience and I've got you know this is kind of like more around the topic of the video that I posted. Now I've had multiple anecdotal evidence from multiple people in areas that don't know themselves, like don't know each other where in a fall, the wires themselves, the load bearing wires in a shallow placement was placed over an edge and the cam was kind of rotated up at first.

00:05:40:17 - 00:05:53:19
Kyle
And as it waited, it rubbed against the rock and rubbed the cable over the edge. And that load bearing cable snapped, and then the whole cam failed. Do you have any experience with this particular kind of situation?

00:05:53:19 - 00:06:01:18
Tal Wanish
had a totem snap like that. I've. I've talked to a few people, and the only people I know who have snapped totem wires like that.

00:06:01:18 - 00:06:08:04
Tal Wanish
Have snapped the heads of, like, similar sized small cams just clean off in similar falls where it's like.

00:06:08:05 - 00:06:09:05
Tal Wanish
Oh, yeah, you're failure's.

00:06:09:05 - 00:06:09:18
Tal Wanish
Like going to.

00:06:09:18 - 00:06:12:21
Tal Wanish
Be. I mean, like, those micro cams are only rated to to so much.

00:06:12:21 - 00:06:13:16
Tal Wanish
And so yeah, they might.

00:06:13:16 - 00:06:16:29
Tal Wanish
Be rated to seven K in ACN, but.

00:06:17:02 - 00:06:23:06
Tal Wanish
That's not five K and over a sharp edge right. Or a shallow placement or things like that.

00:06:23:06 - 00:06:26:11
Tal Wanish
Like being rated to something is kind of again.

00:06:26:11 - 00:06:34:14
Tal Wanish
In like ideal circumstances, it's not hey, this is a really suboptimal position. It's and and sometimes things just snap or break.

00:06:35:08 - 00:07:02:04
Kyle
But I would say in general, the totems are more suspect to that kind of failure than a C4 of the same size, like a point three totem and as point three C4, I would say the C4 is are a slightly more exposed to that kind of failure than a C4. C4.

00:07:02:06 - 00:07:03:21
Kyle
Neither of us are guides.

00:07:03:23 - 00:07:06:20
Kyle
Yeah.

00:07:06:20 - 00:07:12:03
Tal Wanish
flexible. So, like, I would much rather have a totem in a shallow horizontal placement than.

00:07:12:03 - 00:07:20:24
Tal Wanish
Like, a wild country friend of the same size. Because wild country friends are very stiff. In comparison, I'd be much more worried about them snapping.

00:07:20:27 - 00:07:25:06
Tal Wanish
It's kind of like the the thing with the old rigid stems, right? If you're placing in a shallow horizontal.

00:07:25:06 - 00:07:27:25
Tal Wanish
There's a gunked tie off you're using, you're not just clipping it on the

00:07:28:17 - 00:07:30:05
Kyle
Interesting.

00:07:30:05 - 00:07:30:11
Tal Wanish
the.

00:07:30:11 - 00:07:34:24
Tal Wanish
Torque that you're putting on the head. So you gotta you gotta shorten that moment arm.

00:07:34:24 - 00:07:37:00
Tal Wanish
And if you shortening it by it being flexible. And so.

00:07:37:00 - 00:07:37:27
Tal Wanish
Now there's less.

00:07:38:03 - 00:07:42:17
Tal Wanish
Horizontal out from the anchor point. Sick. Or.

00:07:42:18 - 00:07:44:13
Tal Wanish
You got to do that by a shorter tie end.

00:07:44:15 - 00:07:44:29
Tal Wanish
Or by.

00:07:44:29 - 00:07:53:24
Tal Wanish
Extending the draw so that like the overall force going through the end is less or whatever that looks like, there's a lot of different ways to skin a cat there.

00:07:53:27 - 00:07:57:26
Tal Wanish
So, like, I don't personally know. So. Okay, we should give the overall.

00:07:57:26 - 00:07:58:15
Tal Wanish
Background here.

00:07:58:15 - 00:08:03:23
Tal Wanish
Is that you gave the the video being like, I don't want to place a totem here because if.

00:08:03:23 - 00:08:05:09
Tal Wanish
I fall on it, it will fail. And

00:08:10:11 - 00:08:11:08
Tal Wanish
This was this.

00:08:11:08 - 00:08:12:22
Tal Wanish
Is a very nice way of saying what I

00:08:12:22 - 00:08:15:02
Kyle
The definitive nature of it.

00:08:15:04 - 00:08:16:05
Kyle
Yeah.

00:08:16:05 - 00:08:22:06
Tal Wanish
propositioned this blue totem here that's now used at the time it was.

00:08:22:06 - 00:08:23:05
Tal Wanish
On use and I was like, if.

00:08:23:05 - 00:08:25:26
Tal Wanish
You go whip on this and it fails.

00:08:25:26 - 00:08:31:04
Tal Wanish
I will send you this. But I actually broke a different .30 last

00:08:34:14 - 00:08:35:24
Kyle
Yeah.

00:08:35:26 - 00:08:53:01
Kyle
Yeah. No, I, I, I agree, I think that the definitive nature is a dangerous, pitfall to fall into because, for one, I didn't fall in it, so I have no idea. There was no way I was going to fall on that piece because it was like a huge run out below. So it's like it's just an, an unrealistic testing situation.

00:08:53:03 - 00:09:08:12
Kyle
But, yeah. No, I just think it's interesting. I've got a talk, coming up about trad gear and stuff, and I'm trying to, like, pick people's brains about totems specifically because I think they're, over cherished. I love them, but I think it's very important to need to know their weaknesses.

00:09:08:12 - 00:09:10:03
Tal Wanish
I, I like totems. They are.

00:09:10:03 - 00:09:11:16
Tal Wanish
Not the first piece I reach for.

00:09:11:16 - 00:09:16:03
Tal Wanish
Except for the black totem. And it's not. I mean, people love the black totem. It's not because it's a totem.

00:09:16:03 - 00:09:18:10
Tal Wanish
It's because it's a size between a point two and a point

00:09:18:25 - 00:09:21:11
Kyle
Yeah.

00:09:21:13 - 00:09:24:07
Kyle
Well it's not because of the magical power it has.

00:09:24:09 - 00:09:25:21
Kyle
Okay.

00:09:25:21 - 00:09:26:16
Tal Wanish
new traverse route.

00:09:26:16 - 00:09:28:11
Tal Wanish
There's a hard move. That's the.

00:09:28:11 - 00:09:29:25
Tal Wanish
Only remotely.

00:09:29:25 - 00:09:39:07
Tal Wanish
Semi-decent gears. Black totem. I tried to point to, and it pulled out on me while I was sitting on it and body weight, and I tried 2.3 and it didn't even fit. And I was like, here we

00:09:39:07 - 00:09:41:07
Kyle
Here we go.

00:09:41:10 - 00:09:50:10
Kyle
It is funny I don't know why but like on all the harder climbs I've been doing recently, like I find all my videos, it's just like oh there's a black totem again. Oh, there's a black totem again. It's like.

00:09:50:12 - 00:09:52:09
Kyle
Yeah.

00:09:52:09 - 00:09:57:16
Tal Wanish
the .3.4 size. Like they just fit everywhere. It's not anything about the piece itself. It's just the size.

00:09:57:16 - 00:09:58:04
Tal Wanish
Of that appears.

00:10:00:10 - 00:10:14:28
Kyle
Yeah. It's crazy. Okay. Last thing on the totems. I think it's important to and this is mostly for the audience here because I know you, I'm pretty sure you know this obviously. They, they're not passive like you can't they. Umbrella. And that's the one thing that's cool about C4 is you can play some like, a nut and totems.

00:10:14:28 - 00:10:23:28
Kyle
You can't do that. And so like if you are putting a totem in a spot where it's kind of flared behind it and there's a chance that it might walk and open up and you fall on that, that thing's going to completely fail.

00:10:23:28 - 00:10:24:14
Tal Wanish
relative.

00:10:24:14 - 00:10:27:18
Tal Wanish
List of what cams are passive. Do you happen to know that.

00:10:28:06 - 00:10:48:07
Kyle
To my knowledge, C4 or sorry, totems are the only ones that are not. That's a I think it's because of their stemless nature. Yeah, because I think that the the way the trigger is run it or the like, the wires run through the loops up into the heads, while the weight bearing portion of most of the other cams are loaded in the stem.

00:10:48:07 - 00:10:55:02
Kyle
And there's like the central point where it's all attached to. So I think that's like the main difference between all of them.

00:10:55:02 - 00:11:00:16
Kyle
Let's talk about partnership. What do you think makes a great climbing partner?

00:11:00:16 - 00:11:02:27
Tal Wanish
the things that make a great.

00:11:02:27 - 00:11:09:28
Tal Wanish
Climbing partner, the things that make a great partner in life, whether that's a best friend, life partner, or whatever it is. So, like.

00:11:10:00 - 00:11:11:00
Tal Wanish
For me, and this is for.

00:11:11:00 - 00:11:14:13
Tal Wanish
Me personally, good communication. I think it's important, like, you got to tell me what you.

00:11:14:13 - 00:11:14:22
Tal Wanish
Need.

00:11:14:29 - 00:11:18:11
Tal Wanish
And you have to. I have to be able to trust that I can tell you what I need.

00:11:18:13 - 00:11:19:29
Tal Wanish
There has to be that level of trust.

00:11:19:29 - 00:11:29:18
Tal Wanish
So, like, nothing drives me more up the wall than when I am, like, in a position of being a leader. Like I am literally leading. And like, the follower is trying to dictate the game.

00:11:31:10 - 00:11:32:25
Tal Wanish
backseat coaching.

00:11:32:28 - 00:11:35:15
Tal Wanish
I do not. If I'm leading. Please don't just.

00:11:35:15 - 00:11:37:06
Tal Wanish
Be trying to have a chat with me through the walkie

00:11:40:03 - 00:11:44:22
Kyle
You're like. Oh. Wrong channel. Sorry.

00:11:44:24 - 00:11:50:17
Kyle
Yeah.

00:11:50:20 - 00:11:55:05
Kyle
Now, communication. It sounds like you're also talking about communicating expectations.

00:11:55:05 - 00:11:59:23
Tal Wanish
it's like, hey, you know, let me know what you're looking for in the day. You wake up and you're feeling like garbage.

00:11:59:25 - 00:12:01:02
Tal Wanish
Like, tell me, don't.

00:12:01:05 - 00:12:02:04
Tal Wanish
Don't ruin the.

00:12:02:04 - 00:12:04:15
Tal Wanish
Day for yourself. Don't put yourself in a bad spot.

00:12:04:15 - 00:12:06:29
Tal Wanish
So like we'll do big multi pitch days and.

00:12:07:02 - 00:12:11:29
Tal Wanish
You know, me and many of my partners have woken up on the wrong side of the bed and like, you know, I just don't have it today.

00:12:12:00 - 00:12:14:15
Tal Wanish
Like, I'm, I would love a free ride up this and I.

00:12:14:15 - 00:12:19:02
Tal Wanish
Can take like the easy pitches, but like, I know originally I was supposed to have this pitch and I do not have it in me today.

00:12:20:06 - 00:12:20:29
Kyle
Honesty.

00:12:22:01 - 00:12:24:08
Tal Wanish
force yourself or us into a bad situation.

00:12:24:08 - 00:12:27:14
Tal Wanish
Because climbing is a partnership. And you know, when we're tying in together.

00:12:27:14 - 00:12:36:20
Tal Wanish
We're accepting the fact that we may have to be in a rescue scenario or a like a really like you're literally trusting your life in the other person's hands. And so I think.

00:12:36:23 - 00:12:39:26
Tal Wanish
Just letting them know, like what you need, like, hey, don't get.

00:12:39:26 - 00:12:41:02
Tal Wanish
Hangry, just tell me you.

00:12:41:02 - 00:12:41:11
Tal Wanish
Need.

00:12:41:11 - 00:12:43:28
Tal Wanish
Four minutes to eat a snack and let's eat a snack like.

00:12:44:01 - 00:12:46:05
Tal Wanish
All of that stuff is small and silly, but it.

00:12:46:05 - 00:12:47:29
Tal Wanish
Adds up and it makes a huge difference.

00:12:47:29 - 00:12:52:08
Tal Wanish
And, so there's that. There's the reliability of like.

00:12:52:10 - 00:12:58:19
Tal Wanish
You know, you're going to be somewhere on time. I know that you're willing to, like, dig deep. I know you're willing to like, call me out if I'm.

00:12:58:19 - 00:13:00:29
Tal Wanish
Not being a good partner.

00:13:01:02 - 00:13:06:26
Tal Wanish
Like, if if you're like, hey, I really need you to kind of, like, suck it up right now. And just.

00:13:06:26 - 00:13:07:16
Tal Wanish
Those are we do.

00:13:07:16 - 00:13:11:20
Tal Wanish
Horseshoe hell every year. Like, hey, if I'm being, like, a bad partner.

00:13:11:20 - 00:13:13:18
Tal Wanish
At three in the morning and you need a pick me.

00:13:13:18 - 00:13:23:27
Tal Wanish
Up, like, let me know that, because I can turn it around and, like, you know, if I feel like I have the space to complain, I will. But if I don't feel like I have the space to complain, like I can carry the load for a bit, I can shoulder the load as long as you'll do the same.

00:13:24:00 - 00:13:28:14
Tal Wanish
So I think all of that's important. I yeah, the one thing I'd.

00:13:28:14 - 00:13:31:17
Tal Wanish
Never really talk about and what makes a good climbing partner is like how hard you climb.

00:13:31:23 - 00:13:36:15
Tal Wanish
It's like. It's like it's like, yeah, there's a baseline level of safety I need. I would really like.

00:13:36:15 - 00:13:39:14
Tal Wanish
To not have to explain how to clean an anchor while you're 100ft off the ground.

00:13:45:00 - 00:13:52:08
Kyle
Yeah.

00:13:52:11 - 00:14:05:11
Kyle
You you had mentioned before like oh he was using an ATC. Is that kind of like a line in the sand for you. Do you always hand gregorys to people or be like hey there's like talk about it like, hey, I'd like you to use a Gregory here. Like what does that like for you?

00:14:05:11 - 00:14:07:23
Tal Wanish
If it's a stranger, I'm going to.

00:14:07:23 - 00:14:09:23
Tal Wanish
Ask if they know how to use a Gregory, and we'll just hand them.

00:14:09:23 - 00:14:11:23
Tal Wanish
One. Or.

00:14:11:23 - 00:14:12:23
Tal Wanish
Like some assisted

00:14:13:14 - 00:14:14:28
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

00:14:14:29 - 00:14:15:19
Kyle
Yeah.

00:14:15:25 - 00:14:18:26
Tal Wanish
If it's somebody like I know and have seen belay with an ATC before.

00:14:18:26 - 00:14:19:18
Tal Wanish
In the catch lead.

00:14:19:18 - 00:14:26:19
Tal Wanish
Falls before, I'm a little bit more okay with it. I wouldn't say it's a hard line in sand because I.

00:14:26:21 - 00:14:38:02
Tal Wanish
I've definitely climbed with people who are like, hey, I'm not taking a Gregory on a multi pitch, like, I just don't want to carry it. And a lot of times we'll just carry one between the two of us and pass it off, and generally we're fine with that. But.

00:14:38:03 - 00:14:41:15
Tal Wanish
No, I, I'm pretty open to accepting.

00:14:41:15 - 00:14:44:20
Tal Wanish
That people have their own levels of risk tolerance and things that they're.

00:14:44:20 - 00:14:45:26
Tal Wanish
Comfortable with.

00:14:45:28 - 00:14:54:16
Tal Wanish
And, as long as you've, like, demonstrated proficiency there and stuff, it's cool. But yeah, I'm not going to go project with somebody who's giving out hit plays or something like

00:14:56:23 - 00:14:59:15
Kyle
You're like you have no idea. Yeah.

00:14:59:15 - 00:15:01:26
Tal Wanish
route, I'm not going to let you do it with an ATC.

00:15:01:26 - 00:15:02:15
Tal Wanish
Because I would.

00:15:02:15 - 00:15:05:20
Tal Wanish
Feel horrible for you giving an hour long ATC lead belay.

00:15:06:10 - 00:15:26:14
Kyle
Yeah. And not only that I mean with the ATC thing I just can't get over the fact that like if I some reason kick a rock down and hit you and you go unconscious like I'm no longer on belay. If you, if you, you know, if I don't know you and you're like, yeah, I want you easy to use an ATC and you light up a joint and like you're just smoking at the base.

00:15:26:14 - 00:15:44:29
Kyle
And I didn't even know. And now you're high. And it's like there's just so many variables that are out of your control. Like, I just don't understand why. Like, other than very specific reasons where you're using an ATC on purpose because it's like this route has shoddy gear and I want as much dynamic property in the system as possible.

00:15:45:07 - 00:15:59:17
Kyle
And my player is like fucking ready because he knows, like at any point I might come off other than that situation, to me, I don't think there's any use case for the ATC, and in most situations it's like, just fucking use the ABC or assisted braking device. It's like.

00:15:59:17 - 00:16:00:17
Tal Wanish
mean, it's tough because in.

00:16:00:17 - 00:16:02:27
Tal Wanish
Arbus work, like,

00:16:02:29 - 00:16:03:17
Tal Wanish
You know, when you're.

00:16:03:17 - 00:16:19:22
Tal Wanish
Dropping, like, the tops of trees and stuff, you have to give very soft catches. We don't typically use, like, Gregory's or something like that. You're just using what's called a porter wrap to add friction to the system, and then you're you're letting it run. So you're just like feeding slack through your hand.

00:16:19:24 - 00:16:20:26
Tal Wanish
So you just kind of get used to.

00:16:20:26 - 00:16:23:09
Tal Wanish
People giving like sliding hand is,

00:16:23:09 - 00:16:23:14
Tal Wanish
you're.

00:16:23:14 - 00:16:25:16
Tal Wanish
Letting the rope run through your hands to give and.

00:16:25:16 - 00:16:27:22
Tal Wanish
Like, running with it to give a soft catch.

00:16:27:24 - 00:16:30:00
Tal Wanish
And so and that's what they do at.

00:16:30:00 - 00:16:30:29
Tal Wanish
Like the IFC.

00:16:30:29 - 00:16:33:03
Tal Wanish
Level. I don't climb with a lot of.

00:16:33:03 - 00:16:35:16
Tal Wanish
IFC certified bilayers, so like.

00:16:35:16 - 00:16:36:20
Tal Wanish
Generally I'm not.

00:16:37:01 - 00:16:39:03
Kyle
Yeah. You're not good. Yeah.

00:16:39:03 - 00:16:40:09
Tal Wanish
I do understand that, like.

00:16:40:09 - 00:16:44:08
Tal Wanish
That was more of an accepted and practice technique, pre.

00:16:44:10 - 00:16:45:03
Tal Wanish
Assisted breaking.

00:16:45:03 - 00:16:46:10
Tal Wanish
Device. And so like.

00:16:46:12 - 00:16:48:13
Tal Wanish
At some level I'm cool.

00:16:48:13 - 00:16:51:18
Tal Wanish
With it. But it's not my favorite. No it does.

00:16:51:21 - 00:16:53:00
Tal Wanish
When I see somebody pull out the old.

00:16:53:04 - 00:16:55:10
Tal Wanish
TCM, I don't get the warm

00:16:56:15 - 00:16:59:08
Kyle
You're like, let me see your certification.

00:16:59:10 - 00:17:03:04
Kyle
Yeah.

00:17:06:02 - 00:17:13:04
Kyle
It depends how old they are. If they're like in their 50s or 60s and they pull out ATC, you're like, he might be really good.

00:17:13:07 - 00:17:13:23
Kyle
Yeah.

00:17:13:23 - 00:17:20:27
Tal Wanish
mentioned like the pull out on ATC and smoke a joint. We have we had a friend, Ian, who he always played with, a.

00:17:20:27 - 00:17:22:20
Tal Wanish
Gregory, which, thank God, because his other hand

00:17:24:15 - 00:17:27:13
Tal Wanish
you'd be, like, actively crushing out. You'd be like, watch me. And he's sitting

00:17:31:13 - 00:17:49:03
Kyle
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Some people are just meant to have a Gregory, and I'm one of them. I, I want to, like, be able to eat a snack or drink water or, like, film you like. I want to be able to be hands free. Obviously, you're not supposed to be hands free, but I mean, I don't know like symbol Gregory Rapping Gregory.

00:17:49:03 - 00:18:17:05
Kyle
It's like if you're putting, press on a Gregory your I don't know, it's like yeah, yeah. Something. Yeah a tie, a knot if you really are going to go hands free, you know, and the person's not climbing anyway. Back to the partnership. So two things I want to cover. First thing is, so a lot of the stuff you talked about with partnerships was about a lot of kind of nuanced things with partnerships that have been ongoing.

00:18:17:07 - 00:18:19:00
Kyle
What about new partnerships?

00:18:19:00 - 00:18:29:12
Kyle
How can we establish trust with new partners right away? Like, what are the things we can do to facilitate that connection faster?

00:18:29:12 - 00:18:29:25
Tal Wanish
on person.

00:18:29:25 - 00:18:32:22
Tal Wanish
A couple things I try and do, is.

00:18:32:22 - 00:18:34:22
Tal Wanish
When somebody is so always buddy.

00:18:34:22 - 00:18:40:16
Tal Wanish
Check like I buddy check. Oh, it doesn't matter how long we've been climbing together, I buddy check every pitch.

00:18:40:18 - 00:18:42:03
Tal Wanish
And, and so I think.

00:18:42:03 - 00:18:52:08
Tal Wanish
That's like the number one thing you can always do there. The second thing is I try and always ask people like, hey, what type of blade do you want? How do you want to be lowered? Like, do you.

00:18:52:08 - 00:18:53:22
Tal Wanish
Want to slow lower? Do you want.

00:18:53:22 - 00:19:08:08
Tal Wanish
To type belay? Do you want a soft catch like what's your priority here? If it's a route they've been on? Like is there anything I need to look out for as a player here? Are you expecting to come off potentially in one of these bolts, or should I just stay frosty the whole time? I think all of those are.

00:19:08:11 - 00:19:12:00
Tal Wanish
Typical things you can do, and then it's just showing up.

00:19:12:02 - 00:19:19:13
Tal Wanish
In those moments. Right. So you've now established the way in which you're expecting to operate, operate that way.

00:19:19:15 - 00:19:21:11
Tal Wanish
You know, if I say like, hey, do you want a soft.

00:19:21:11 - 00:19:24:12
Tal Wanish
Catch in there? Like, yeah. And I spike them, that doesn't.

00:19:24:14 - 00:19:24:20
Tal Wanish
They.

00:19:24:20 - 00:19:28:16
Tal Wanish
Even though we communicate that that's not going to build trust. And so there's that.

00:19:28:16 - 00:19:29:01
Tal Wanish
And then I think.

00:19:29:01 - 00:19:30:04
Tal Wanish
Just asking people like, hey.

00:19:30:04 - 00:19:33:15
Tal Wanish
Just making sure like you're comfortable, like when I go up a route for the first.

00:19:33:15 - 00:19:36:18
Tal Wanish
Time, I'll go up and I'll let whoever's on the ground know what that anchor is, regard.

00:19:36:23 - 00:19:37:26
Tal Wanish
Even if it's just hooks. Okay?

00:19:37:26 - 00:19:47:22
Tal Wanish
There's hooks up there. Just so you know, it's just like making sure that the situation is known and kind of over communicating. And a really good way to build trust with me is to bring, like, really good baked goods. I would say

00:19:50:12 - 00:19:50:19
Kyle
Yeah.

00:19:50:20 - 00:20:17:22
Kyle
Cookies or brownies? Muffins. It's a bring the nuts in the muffins for sure. Okay. Good to know. Yeah I think I think communication's huge. I also think, participation. I think that like if you're going out with a new partner, like try to participate as much as you can, like almost try to be the, the guide. I don't know, like, be all over participating like, okay, you know, what route are we doing?

00:20:17:22 - 00:20:31:23
Kyle
What gear do we need? Like, I've got this. What do you have? Like make a plan. Like, don't you know, make it the other person's prerogative to to bring you out and lean on them, like, make it as much your objective as it is the other person's.

00:20:31:23 - 00:20:36:24
Tal Wanish
thing I definitely failed to mention when we talk about what makes a good partner is.

00:20:36:24 - 00:20:38:22
Tal Wanish
The kind of been the hot topic of.

00:20:38:22 - 00:20:41:08
Tal Wanish
This interview, which is proactivity.

00:20:41:13 - 00:20:48:02
Tal Wanish
Like idle hands is not great for me. There are some people who, on really mellow days of the crag, I'm very rarely one of those people.

00:20:48:04 - 00:20:53:25
Tal Wanish
And so like if if I get down on the root and pull the rope and stuff and like, I'm basically ready to.

00:20:53:25 - 00:20:58:12
Tal Wanish
Belay, I have my shoes off, I've eaten and drank water and stuff and like you were just now starting to get ready.

00:20:58:19 - 00:20:59:18
Tal Wanish
That for me.

00:20:59:18 - 00:21:01:26
Tal Wanish
That is not going to be a long term.

00:21:01:28 - 00:21:06:12
Tal Wanish
Relationship. But also like, find the people that you jive with. I know people who, like.

00:21:06:12 - 00:21:19:24
Tal Wanish
That's who they're looking for. They don't want to feel rush. They don't want to feel like it's like a competition to see how many pitches they can get in in the day. And so I think kind of going back to communicating expectations and things like that is all important. And so I'll ask people that beforehand.

00:21:19:26 - 00:21:21:19
Tal Wanish
Historically I've made like very.

00:21:21:19 - 00:21:23:04
Tal Wanish
Off the wall.

00:21:23:06 - 00:21:25:08
Tal Wanish
Looking for a partner. Mountain project personnel.

00:21:25:08 - 00:21:26:26
Tal Wanish
Typically say like, hey, here's what I'm

00:21:28:29 - 00:21:37:14
Kyle
Expectation. Yeah. Yeah I also think it's important to one of my friends mentioned this, the 2080 20 rule. Have you heard of this.

00:21:37:14 - 00:21:38:17
Tal Wanish
heard of the 8020 year.

00:21:38:18 - 00:21:40:01
Tal Wanish
I've never heard of the 2080, 20.

00:21:40:10 - 00:22:09:10
Kyle
So 20% of your partnerships should be people that are better than you. So someone that's showing you what's possible within yourself and within climbing in general like a mentor. 80% of your climbing partner. I'm sorry, 20, 80, 20 doesn't make any sense. 2060 20. We're living in a world that's, 120%. 20. 60. 20. 60% of your partnerships should be at your level.

00:22:09:10 - 00:22:33:18
Kyle
You push each other equally. You have similar objectives. You each learn from each other equally, and then the other 20% should be where you are acting as a mentor for other people. And you are you are the 20% for that person's 20, if that makes sense. So I just thought that was a really cool breakdown. I think that we get so focused on like, oh, I don't have anybody, you know, that's at my level or, you know, we're like, I can't find anybody that's like, you know, better than me.

00:22:33:18 - 00:22:43:00
Kyle
But it's like, you know, we can also support everybody around us and be a mentor for other people. It's like we don't have, you know, I might only climb five nine, but I could be a mentor for somebody that climbs five, six.

00:22:43:00 - 00:22:45:27
Tal Wanish
absolutely. And I think that's a way to say stay.

00:22:45:27 - 00:22:47:15
Tal Wanish
Sustainable in the sport.

00:22:47:18 - 00:22:48:20
Tal Wanish
I think anybody who's been.

00:22:48:20 - 00:22:59:15
Tal Wanish
In that grind for a partner and done the whole, like, I'm going to take anybody with a passing interest in climbing out and teach them how to lead. Belay recognizes that is not a sustainable place to live in the sport.

00:22:59:21 - 00:23:01:29
Tal Wanish
And similarly, like the person who's always getting drug up.

00:23:01:29 - 00:23:10:23
Tal Wanish
Stuff that they're just absolutely getting like handed to them, is not sustainable in the sport. It's not fun going out every day, just getting.

00:23:10:25 - 00:23:20:03
Tal Wanish
Whooped like you got to have some victories. You got to have some, like shared commiseration. But it is also important to make sure that you're not the.

00:23:20:03 - 00:23:24:00
Tal Wanish
Top of the food chain as well and make sure that, like, hey, yeah, there's a.

00:23:24:00 - 00:23:25:20
Tal Wanish
Lot like, I, we, I align with.

00:23:25:20 - 00:23:26:13
Tal Wanish
Positive right in the.

00:23:26:13 - 00:23:27:14
Tal Wanish
Cove, which if you're not.

00:23:27:14 - 00:23:38:25
Tal Wanish
Familiar with he's an old cop climber. There's old like video footage. One of like I think Jimmy Webb's first bouldering videos was with Vasya. He's a 515 and and Rumney and stuff like that.

00:23:38:25 - 00:23:43:06
Tal Wanish
And his goal this year was to climb ten new five fourteens.

00:23:43:06 - 00:23:45:16
Tal Wanish
100 new thirteen's and 365 new.

00:23:45:16 - 00:23:47:18
Tal Wanish
Twelves, and he did the first ten fourteens in.

00:23:49:04 - 00:23:50:08
Kyle
Jeez.

00:23:50:08 - 00:23:54:18
Kyle
Wow. I suck!

00:23:54:18 - 00:24:00:05
Kyle
Yeah. Wow. Wow.

00:24:00:05 - 00:24:01:05
Tal Wanish
like seeing that.

00:24:01:05 - 00:24:06:19
Tal Wanish
Is like genuinely inspiring of like a here's what is possible and here's so.

00:24:06:19 - 00:24:08:19
Tal Wanish
Like sometimes it's nice. I mean people.

00:24:08:19 - 00:24:17:13
Tal Wanish
Talk about the if you want to know where you stand in the world basketball rankings, you got to find LeBron and go one on one like in. The cool thing about climbing is you can walk up to the hardest routes in.

00:24:17:13 - 00:24:18:25
Tal Wanish
The world, like seeing.

00:24:18:25 - 00:24:27:09
Tal Wanish
That in action. I think it's something that people should try and participate in a little bit more. Just to understand, like, dude, this is possible. Like this was climbed by somebody just like you just

00:24:29:21 - 00:24:32:02
Kyle
Yeah. That's cool.

00:24:32:04 - 00:25:04:05
Kyle
Yeah. It is wild to I think we put our own limitations on ourself pretty heavily. And I'm guilty of this too. Like I mean I'll use rainbow while out here in Red rocks as an example. I remember seeing that wall and just being like this is fucking impossible. Like 12 with a fork like pitch break down like 11 C 11 D you know, 11 b you know, it's just so stacked like there's no way, you know, and like, this kid out here, he's like, I think he was 19 when he brought me up the wall, like, just he's like, I'll take you up it, you know, I'm just going to he's he'd climbing

00:25:04:05 - 00:25:24:05
Kyle
me before. He's like, you could do it. And I was like, okay, I believe you, kid. You know, like, fuck yeah. And, yeah, I got off the wall. And it's just like, fucking mind opening. I was just like, wow. Like, I am physically capable of doing this. And it was just like, such a, you know, of changing moment in my climbing career.

00:25:24:05 - 00:25:34:18
Kyle
So, Yeah, it's it's really cool to. You need people like that. You need the 20%, and then you need to be that for other people, because you can absolutely change your lives.

00:25:34:18 - 00:25:35:12
Tal Wanish
had a partner.

00:25:35:12 - 00:25:36:26
Tal Wanish
That you've climbed with, like, over the.

00:25:36:26 - 00:25:40:27
Tal Wanish
Years, like, take like, you know, meet up with them, grab a drink.

00:25:40:27 - 00:25:57:02
Tal Wanish
Or something and talk about where you guys were a few years ago. And just like the things that you thought weren't possible that you've now done like that is such a like that's me and my roommate. And we do that, like once every couple years and we like, hey, do you remember when we talked about like what if and like that was.

00:25:57:02 - 00:26:00:13
Tal Wanish
Our warm up yesterday. Like those type of things like that is such a crazy.

00:26:00:13 - 00:26:02:15
Tal Wanish
Feeling of just being like.

00:26:02:18 - 00:26:09:20
Tal Wanish
You're just on like progress isn't linear and progress isn't always look like pushing grades. Sometimes it just looks like, hey, this was just a.

00:26:09:21 - 00:26:21:20
Tal Wanish
Five nine that I was very scared of. A while back that I'm not scared of now. Like stuff like that or like this hike. I never thought I could do that approach in that climb in a day. And we did it. And we're home by dinner, like stuff like that. It's just such.

00:26:21:20 - 00:26:22:24
Tal Wanish
A cool little.

00:26:22:24 - 00:26:28:13
Tal Wanish
Victory. Or like, oh, I always looked up to this person and now they're in my contacts. Like, that's such a just a cool thing to

00:26:29:14 - 00:26:43:13
Kyle
For sure. One of the big ones for me has been like where 510 start to feel like five nines and like five, nine start to feel like five eights. It's like the.

00:26:43:15 - 00:27:06:09
Kyle
Like I just love the familiarity that comes with it. Sometimes you're just like, wow, I'm so calm. I'm so relaxed. I'm so confident. Like, to me, climbing the joy of climbing is feeling confident, calm and collected and executing. Like when I execute technical terrain. It's just the best feeling. And to be able to do that, you know, at the 510 level just feels so good.

00:27:06:11 - 00:27:07:16
Kyle
And.

00:27:07:16 - 00:27:07:25
Tal Wanish
setting.

00:27:07:25 - 00:27:18:02
Tal Wanish
Expectations is a really good way to have a bad day. Like, expecting something to go easy is a really good way to have a bad day. But setting accurate expectations, like setting expectations.

00:27:18:02 - 00:27:19:00
Tal Wanish
That were.

00:27:19:00 - 00:27:20:01
Tal Wanish
Met.

00:27:20:03 - 00:27:20:27
Tal Wanish
Perfectly.

00:27:21:00 - 00:27:22:03
Tal Wanish
Is such a good feeling.

00:27:22:10 - 00:27:25:24
Tal Wanish
And so when you get on something, you're like, this is going to be scary, but I know.

00:27:25:24 - 00:27:26:05
Tal Wanish
I've got.

00:27:26:05 - 00:27:28:19
Tal Wanish
It. And then it being scary and you getting it, it's.

00:27:28:19 - 00:27:30:05
Tal Wanish
Such a good feeling.

00:27:30:08 - 00:27:34:04
Tal Wanish
But it is funny that you say that because I've gotten, you know, my top.

00:27:34:04 - 00:27:41:01
Tal Wanish
End climbing grade has gone up over the years. I recently got my first like 513 and stuff and was feeling good. Still horrified when I try and do a ten

00:27:47:13 - 00:27:57:18
Kyle
Talk to me about you and Tanner's challenge your race to 512. And now it seems like a race to 513. And the prizes that are involved.

00:27:57:18 - 00:28:05:23
Tal Wanish
Tanner, Tanner is an over stoker for sure. And when he. So he I started climbing, like, basically.

00:28:05:23 - 00:28:13:06
Tal Wanish
About six months before he did, like, for real climbing up besides my my 12 birthday top ropes in Clemson.

00:28:13:08 - 00:28:16:10
Tal Wanish
And, he got into it and he, we had.

00:28:16:10 - 00:28:20:27
Tal Wanish
A race to five 12in the bet. And it was like, whoever wins gets to sign the other person's pair of shoes.

00:28:24:16 - 00:28:28:25
Tal Wanish
Burns into incinerator at, at Big Bear.

00:28:28:27 - 00:28:30:26
Tal Wanish
Finally sent it, and.

00:28:30:28 - 00:28:32:13
Tal Wanish
I hadn't really tried many.

00:28:32:14 - 00:28:33:11
Tal Wanish
12 I think the most.

00:28:33:11 - 00:28:35:19
Tal Wanish
I tried anything was like three burns.

00:28:35:19 - 00:28:39:15
Tal Wanish
On the 512. And so he said, oh, the shoes are actually out.

00:28:39:15 - 00:28:44:01
Tal Wanish
I have a little climbing wall in my shed and my shoes are the one. Those shoes are the ones I use.

00:28:44:01 - 00:28:47:18
Tal Wanish
For the the schedule. So he won and there's that.

00:28:47:18 - 00:28:48:15
Tal Wanish
And then it was a race to.

00:28:48:15 - 00:28:50:17
Tal Wanish
513, and the winner would buy.

00:28:50:17 - 00:28:51:23
Tal Wanish
The other person the totem.

00:28:51:23 - 00:29:01:07
Tal Wanish
Of their choosing. Speaking of totems, and neither both of us have now clean for 513 and neither of us feel like we that it was actually

00:29:08:06 - 00:29:09:20
Kyle
Yeah.

00:29:09:22 - 00:29:37:20
Kyle
So so so talk to me about that. What, how much do you feel like that is humble bragging where it's like, you know, you downgrade it because you're like, you know, I don't think it's 513. It's almost like a disrespect to the person who put it up because you're downgrading their route. Like, how much of that is kind of like that humble brag mentality versus just like, I get it, though, because it's like I've climbed X amount of routes that are X grade, and in comparison, it doesn't seem like it would be harder.

00:29:37:20 - 00:29:53:14
Kyle
So what are the nuances there? And how much of it should be just like where we take the grade and accept it and move on versus downgrading everything, we feel like it's slightly soft.

00:29:53:16 - 00:29:58:06
Kyle
Okay. Okay.

00:29:58:06 - 00:29:59:07
Tal Wanish
like, I, we.

00:29:59:07 - 00:30:06:08
Tal Wanish
Have a saying in our house, styles make match ups, right? Like there are just sometimes you will just crush it. And your style of choosing.

00:30:06:10 - 00:30:10:10
Tal Wanish
I typically can be convinced to climb is within three letter grades.

00:30:10:10 - 00:30:16:27
Tal Wanish
In either direction of whatever the consensus grade is. I'm really bad at grades. The guidebook I wrote, everything is.

00:30:17:00 - 00:30:17:23
Tal Wanish
Like minus

00:30:17:29 - 00:30:24:03
Kyle
Slashes.

00:30:24:05 - 00:30:28:19
Kyle
Great fidelity. I like that.

00:30:28:19 - 00:30:30:25
Tal Wanish
And like it also bums me out when I'm out of

00:30:37:10 - 00:30:41:04
Kyle
You're like what's the difference. Yeah.

00:30:41:04 - 00:30:41:15
Tal Wanish


00:30:41:18 - 00:30:42:04
Tal Wanish
The whole

00:30:45:11 - 00:30:49:02
Tal Wanish
general I think people should grade. Honestly, I don't think, like.

00:30:49:05 - 00:30:51:21
Tal Wanish
Sometimes downgrading is an ego thing.

00:30:51:24 - 00:30:52:19
Tal Wanish
For sure.

00:30:52:22 - 00:30:54:17
Tal Wanish
But I think a lot of times it's like, hey.

00:30:54:17 - 00:30:59:29
Tal Wanish
It's okay to think something's easier than the consensus grade. It's also okay to think something's harder than the consensus

00:31:00:04 - 00:31:01:27
Kyle
Yeah.

00:31:01:27 - 00:31:05:13
Tal Wanish
all have different strengths. We all have different betas.

00:31:05:15 - 00:31:07:02
Tal Wanish
Like, just give it what you honestly thought and.

00:31:07:02 - 00:31:08:00
Tal Wanish
Move on to the best you can.

00:31:08:00 - 00:31:10:02
Tal Wanish
Do. The consensus is really just.

00:31:10:02 - 00:31:13:25
Tal Wanish
There to be direction, be accurate, not accurate in a vacuum.

00:31:14:13 - 00:31:30:00
Kyle
I think it becomes only an issue when it starts becoming public when you start to like publicly be like, you know I got on a 13 a but it was soft or like I don't think it was 13 a it's like well what's the point of making that public. You know.

00:31:30:02 - 00:31:31:04
Kyle
Yeah.

00:31:31:04 - 00:31:35:12
Tal Wanish
take it on, man. Project. Great. On on project. Don't come off and be like, oh, I suck.

00:31:35:12 - 00:31:37:25
Tal Wanish
I couldn't send that. And like, that's somebody's lifetime project

00:31:41:28 - 00:31:50:13
Kyle
Or you. Yeah. You send it and you're like that was easy or like that's not even, it's like a 12 B. Come on. You know it's just like maybe you're just really good.

00:31:50:13 - 00:31:58:28
Tal Wanish
Yeah. Hundred percent. And like you're you might be having a good day. Conditions might be. Right. So like one of those that the 13 that was an for was something that we spent multiple days on.

00:31:58:28 - 00:32:05:06
Tal Wanish
We're like this is hard 13. And then we came back to it on like a perfect conditions day. And we're like this is probably 12 to

00:32:07:26 - 00:32:08:21
Kyle
Well.

00:32:08:21 - 00:32:16:12
Tal Wanish
sometimes conditions are right bodies right minds. Right. You have good company. Whatever you've been moon boarding on. Just the right problems, like whatever it is

00:32:16:28 - 00:32:17:28
Kyle
Now.

00:32:18:00 - 00:32:47:03
Kyle
And now what about so with grading. What about like so obviously like if everything were rated as the on site grade things would be way harder if everything were rated as the I've spent 100 burns on this. Everything would be soft. So where's the middle ground. Where should be? Where should the grade be? Is it is the grade once I've dialed every fucking move and like, I know exactly what this route is, that's what the grade is like.

00:32:47:03 - 00:32:50:07
Kyle
Where where does that nuance come in?

00:32:50:07 - 00:32:59:12
Tal Wanish
no idea. So, we mean, nobody actually talked about doing. This is a project. So chess uses an Elo system. For, chess, using Elo system for things.

00:32:59:12 - 00:33:03:12
Kyle
Chess. Like the game. Chess. The game of kings.

00:33:03:14 - 00:33:08:06
Kyle
Okay.

00:33:08:08 - 00:33:14:27
Kyle
Yeah a certain score.

00:33:22:02 - 00:33:24:09
Tal Wanish
how does that work when you just need to.

00:33:24:09 - 00:33:25:14
Tal Wanish
Succeed once, right?

00:33:25:14 - 00:33:28:16
Tal Wanish
Like, chess is like win, draw a loss.

00:33:28:18 - 00:33:34:27
Tal Wanish
But that is ongoing versus climbing. You do it once, and once you send it, you typically don't get back on it.

00:33:34:29 - 00:33:36:07
Tal Wanish
And so should things.

00:33:36:07 - 00:33:39:29
Tal Wanish
Be rated on the on site because that's the guaranteed one. Go you

00:33:40:10 - 00:33:45:16
Kyle
Yeah. That's the one level playing field that we all have is the first experience.

00:33:45:16 - 00:33:50:09
Tal Wanish
routes that have really tricky beta or like,

00:33:50:12 - 00:33:52:18
Tal Wanish
Skill based beta where it's a skill.

00:33:52:18 - 00:33:53:01
Tal Wanish
That you can.

00:33:53:01 - 00:33:57:04
Tal Wanish
Learn on route and master and all of a sudden it becomes second nature and easy.

00:33:57:07 - 00:33:57:27
Tal Wanish
And so.

00:33:57:29 - 00:34:02:10
Tal Wanish
How does that affect grades and things like that? And that's another reason why I think grades are just like all over the place,

00:34:02:27 - 00:34:06:17
Kyle
For sure I mean it, it's very understandable that it's all subjective.

00:34:06:19 - 00:34:07:15
Kyle
Yeah.

00:34:07:15 - 00:34:13:08
Tal Wanish
example is like campus, right? Like if you have the upper body strength campus is V0, you don't have the.

00:34:13:08 - 00:34:15:04
Tal Wanish
Upper body strength campus is impossible.

00:34:17:28 - 00:34:20:23
Kyle
First of all. Yeah.

00:34:20:23 - 00:34:31:10
Tal Wanish
like, it's it's just like a you start kind of campus and like a good rail move over dead point up to a jug. The move itself is probably like the one, but.

00:34:31:13 - 00:34:38:22
Tal Wanish
It has a campus start. So does that give it like a minimum grade for somebody? It's like, yeah, I know a bunch of like dude bros who can do that and flip.

00:34:38:22 - 00:34:39:22
Tal Wanish
Flops, no problem.

00:34:39:22 - 00:34:42:19
Tal Wanish
Who have never climbed before. I know a lot of climbers who have climbed for.

00:34:42:19 - 00:34:44:05
Tal Wanish
Ten years who wouldn't be able to do that.

00:34:44:05 - 00:34:47:06
Tal Wanish
Because campus is not in there. Like climbing vocabulary.

00:34:47:22 - 00:34:49:06
Kyle
Yeah.

00:34:49:06 - 00:34:49:25
Tal Wanish
mean they're.

00:34:49:25 - 00:34:53:17
Tal Wanish
Not strong climbers capable of climbing that grade. It's just a like a skill based thing

00:34:54:00 - 00:35:03:05
Kyle
I definitely think that like once the root starts to get overhung it's like it's a whole different style of climbing almost. It could be like a different category of climbing.

00:35:10:17 - 00:35:22:10
Kyle
I love my feet dude. I love my feet. Yeah. Oh, awesome. That's that's, awesome. I, I don't think I've ever talked about the nuance that that, in depth. I love the ELO score in the chess.

00:35:23:13 - 00:35:27:04
Kyle
Analogy and. Yeah.

00:35:27:23 - 00:35:38:29
Kyle
I do think that the onsite rating to me makes the most sense. It's like it's the only level playing field we all have. What's the rating when you first come up to the climb for the first time.

00:35:38:29 - 00:35:41:21
Tal Wanish
another hot take. But I'm.

00:35:41:21 - 00:35:42:22
Tal Wanish
Going to.

00:35:42:25 - 00:35:51:28
Tal Wanish
I want to do the ELO score because I want to confirm this bias that I have that low grade off with is very sandbagged and high grade off with is.

00:35:52:14 - 00:36:00:27
Kyle
Soft. I could see that for sure. All these like 513 off with. So you're like I don't know. Did.

00:36:00:27 - 00:36:05:08
Tal Wanish
there's a scale of suffering that off with like at a certain level you just are.

00:36:05:09 - 00:36:10:12
Tal Wanish
It's how long and how well can you suffer stops becoming about like some of the other stuff.

00:36:10:12 - 00:36:11:17
Tal Wanish
It's like, yeah, the techniques all.

00:36:11:17 - 00:36:16:13
Tal Wanish
Requisite and required. But it's like, how miserable are you willing to be for an extended period of time?

00:36:16:22 - 00:36:17:24
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah that.

00:36:17:24 - 00:36:20:13
Kyle
Makes sense. Interesting.

00:36:20:13 - 00:36:48:05
Kyle
Let's be real for a second. The current blueprint for a successful climbing podcast is simple. Interview the best climbers in the world. Big names mean big followings. Lots of SEO power and a built in audience that helps boost every episode. But this show, this show has never been about that. From the beginning, I have made it my mission to bring you stories from the climbing majority, the climbers who don't live in the limelight, the ones who avoid interviews, quietly put up roots and give back in ways that are rarely recognized.

00:36:48:09 - 00:37:04:28
Kyle
And while that's what makes this show special, it also means we have an uphill battle when it comes to growth. And that is where you come in. If you're psyched about the show, if you've been inspired, entertained, or fired up about an episode. Word of mouth is the single most important way you can help the show. Share an episode with a friend.

00:37:05:02 - 00:37:22:16
Kyle
Play one on a group road trip. Post about the show on social media. Jump onto Reddit threads and Mountain Project forums and share with people what you've been listening to. Be sure to tag the show, tag your favorite guests, and spread the word. And if you want to help even more, I'm currently sending posters to climbing gyms around the country.

00:37:22:20 - 00:37:36:02
Kyle
If you'd like to support one in your climbing gym, be sure to reach out. Email me at the Climbing Majority podcast at gmail.com and I will be sure to send you one. Let's band together and show the climbing community that the climbing majority has a voice.

00:37:36:02 - 00:37:51:20
Kyle
Let's talk about risk. It seems like you kind of went through a transitionary period with risk as well. Tell me about your relationship with risk and how it related to your development as a climber.

00:37:51:20 - 00:37:56:15
Tal Wanish
My relationship with risk has changed a lot as a climber, in different ways.

00:37:56:15 - 00:37:56:22
Tal Wanish
So I.

00:37:56:22 - 00:37:57:17
Tal Wanish
Think there's different.

00:37:57:17 - 00:38:00:21
Tal Wanish
Things. When you say risk that you're willing to do.

00:38:00:23 - 00:38:07:05
Tal Wanish
One thing that might be risk is pushing a grade. So being willing to fall on lead. I know you.

00:38:07:05 - 00:38:17:17
Tal Wanish
Have, you say often, like the, like about your propensity towards falling and the like your feelings towards if you ain't, if you're not falling, you're not trying or whatever. So I think that's one level of risk.

00:38:17:17 - 00:38:22:14
Tal Wanish
There's, pushing gear. So run outs or trad.

00:38:22:14 - 00:38:25:15
Tal Wanish
Gear or things like that, that's another level of risk soloing.

00:38:25:17 - 00:38:30:17
Tal Wanish
Things like that. And then there's the, kind of the.

00:38:30:17 - 00:38:41:01
Tal Wanish
Unknown where it's, I don't know what this grade or gear is going to be and how can I continue to progress upwards. Right. So that's like the first essentialist style of climbing.

00:38:41:04 - 00:38:44:08
Tal Wanish
I think my willingness to fall on lead when.

00:38:44:08 - 00:38:47:22
Tal Wanish
I feel the situation is safe has increased.

00:38:47:24 - 00:38:50:22
Tal Wanish
My willingness to trust gear.

00:38:50:22 - 00:38:55:09
Tal Wanish
In general has, like at a baseline is probably decreased now that I've seen a lot of it, that I've

00:38:56:08 - 00:38:57:23
Kyle
That's interesting.

00:38:59:00 - 00:39:01:16
Tal Wanish
And my willingness to kind of move into the unknown.

00:39:01:16 - 00:39:03:07
Tal Wanish
And trust my own skills is increased.

00:39:03:07 - 00:39:05:15
Tal Wanish
And so basically what this boils.

00:39:05:15 - 00:39:07:25
Tal Wanish
Down to is I think my risk assessment has been

00:39:08:28 - 00:39:16:09
Kyle
Yeah. You have more data.

00:39:18:17 - 00:39:20:12
Kyle
What happen.

00:39:20:14 - 00:39:22:14
Kyle
Oh.

00:39:22:14 - 00:39:24:13
Tal Wanish
repels, but they were scary because I developed.

00:39:24:13 - 00:39:25:10
Tal Wanish
The fear of freeing.

00:39:25:12 - 00:39:31:29
Tal Wanish
Those. I don't I don't know what switch, but I just now developing my least favorite part of every day is.

00:39:31:29 - 00:39:33:12
Tal Wanish
Walking over the edge of the cliff.

00:39:35:11 - 00:39:36:14
Kyle
Okay.

00:39:37:15 - 00:39:40:12
Tal Wanish
Yeah. I mean, some of the most scary times of climbing, like

00:39:40:12 - 00:39:48:15
Tal Wanish
one of the most scared I've been on the rope was in Rocky Mountain National Park, working with Nathan Brown on a new route. He was doing, we weren't pushing.

00:39:48:15 - 00:39:57:00
Tal Wanish
It all the way to the top, and so we had to repel off of this flake. That's football. Or like, maybe, I don't know, big football size.

00:39:57:02 - 00:40:00:06
Tal Wanish
And, that was we couldn't put in bolts.

00:40:00:06 - 00:40:07:00
Tal Wanish
Cause there's an established route that already went through there. That was the established anchor for that route. It is. I don't know how that came to be.

00:40:07:00 - 00:40:08:17
Tal Wanish
I'm assuming just.

00:40:08:20 - 00:40:11:22
Tal Wanish
Probably only has three ascents, and nobody was double checking to.

00:40:11:22 - 00:40:15:02
Tal Wanish
Make sure it's actually solid. And I remember Nathan.

00:40:15:04 - 00:40:17:02
Tal Wanish
I was like, dude, I really don't want to do this.

00:40:17:04 - 00:40:20:18
Tal Wanish
And he was like, oh, we'll back it up. And he puts A75 behind the same

00:40:24:28 - 00:40:29:12
Kyle
Yeah. Geez.

00:40:32:14 - 00:40:33:21
Kyle
Whoa!

00:40:33:21 - 00:40:34:23
Tal Wanish
the whole thing, just like.

00:40:34:23 - 00:40:37:22
Tal Wanish
Trying to down climb this overhanging ten plus pitch. We just

00:40:38:18 - 00:40:40:07
Kyle
Wow.

00:40:40:13 - 00:40:41:21
Tal Wanish
And I got.

00:40:41:21 - 00:40:46:16
Tal Wanish
Down to the next boy, and I was almost in tears, and I was like, dude, that is so messed up. And he's like, yeah, I hate that thing too.

00:40:46:16 - 00:40:46:21
Tal Wanish
And he.

00:40:46:21 - 00:40:47:21
Tal Wanish
Just zips down the next.

00:40:47:21 - 00:40:48:02
Tal Wanish
Rope

00:40:48:26 - 00:40:54:26
Kyle
Damn. Psychologically, though.

00:40:54:26 - 00:40:55:17
Tal Wanish
mean, it was I.

00:40:55:25 - 00:40:58:15
Tal Wanish
Genuinely thought I was like, this is it.

00:40:58:17 - 00:41:20:20
Tal Wanish
And so like, there's that, gear wise, I think a lot of my fear, I was trying to get a first ascent of an 11 plus ish trad line. I had tested all the gear placement. Everything looked good, started a lead go. Fell on a piece, on a previous lead. Go. And it held. I mean, it was like a basically perfectly cam 0.5.

00:41:20:21 - 00:41:25:21
Tal Wanish
Buried probably eight inches in the crack. Like, could barely reach the trigger wires. Buried.

00:41:25:24 - 00:41:31:03
Tal Wanish
Went up above it to go to the next piece and realized my buddy who was projecting about next to.

00:41:31:03 - 00:41:33:07
Tal Wanish
Me had left that piece in the climb.

00:41:33:07 - 00:41:37:07
Tal Wanish
To lower off of, and so I didn't have a piece. Thought I could just.

00:41:37:07 - 00:41:38:10
Tal Wanish
Make it up on the fly.

00:41:38:16 - 00:41:42:23
Tal Wanish
Couldn't, fell rich at that point. Five that was.

00:41:42:23 - 00:41:45:01
Tal Wanish
Absolutely buried that I had already fallen on before.

00:41:45:01 - 00:41:50:23
Tal Wanish
Ripped another piece below it. And then the piece that ended up kind of catching me, actually exploded all of.

00:41:50:23 - 00:41:52:21
Tal Wanish
The rock it was in. I like, I.

00:41:52:21 - 00:41:53:24
Tal Wanish
Landed just on my.

00:41:53:24 - 00:41:55:24
Tal Wanish
Feet, hands on my hips, and like a superhero.

00:41:55:24 - 00:41:56:23
Tal Wanish
Pose and looked at my.

00:41:56:25 - 00:42:05:16
Tal Wanish
Player and was like, well, that sucked. And, once the shock wore off, like I had pretty bad back pain and got an MRI and had herniated two disc in

00:42:07:01 - 00:42:09:29
Kyle
Damn.

00:42:09:29 - 00:42:14:25
Tal Wanish
had I had never even imagined these pieces could pull. And.

00:42:14:27 - 00:42:17:04
Tal Wanish
So, you know, I think when we talk about.

00:42:17:04 - 00:42:17:29
Tal Wanish
Risk assessment and.

00:42:17:29 - 00:42:19:19
Tal Wanish
Part of when we talk about.

00:42:19:22 - 00:42:32:06
Tal Wanish
Definitive statements in climbing is there's been a lot of times where I would have bet my life savings that a piece wouldn't hold, and it did, and that I would bet that my life savings that a piece would hold and it didn't.

00:42:32:29 - 00:42:40:28
Kyle
I really. Yeah, I like that a lot.

00:42:40:28 - 00:42:44:03
Tal Wanish
and make that as a statement. And so.

00:42:44:08 - 00:42:45:02
Tal Wanish
With gear, I'm a.

00:42:45:02 - 00:42:48:01
Tal Wanish
Lot less willing to say definitively things are going to happen.

00:42:48:01 - 00:42:51:01
Tal Wanish
And so I'm much more.

00:42:51:03 - 00:42:51:22
Tal Wanish
Commonly.

00:42:51:22 - 00:42:54:15
Tal Wanish
Doubling up pieces. I keep a wrench on me whenever.

00:42:54:15 - 00:43:04:21
Tal Wanish
I'm cracking so I can tighten bolts, like I don't mess around with spinners. If something spinning, I want to make sure that I can cinch it down, because I don't want to be the guy who kicks that hanger off when I fall, things like that.

00:43:04:21 - 00:43:11:08
Tal Wanish
But I'm also willing to be like, hey, like, this is safe. I know these bolts are good. I'm going to skip this one. Like, if I fall.

00:43:11:08 - 00:43:13:16
Tal Wanish
I still have nothing to hit something like that.

00:43:13:25 - 00:43:18:00
Kyle
Or you're in, you're in terrain where you're confident enough to make that decision where you're not going to fall.

00:43:18:00 - 00:43:20:21
Tal Wanish
exactly. Or it's like I'm willing to, you know, again, I don't.

00:43:20:21 - 00:43:23:16
Tal Wanish
Want to say I'm not going to fall, but I'm willing to risk the chance that I

00:43:23:22 - 00:43:28:12
Kyle
The chance yeah I, I feel confident enough to make that, that calculated decision.

00:43:28:12 - 00:43:37:16
Tal Wanish
you ride motorcycles. Like, that's not always the safest thing to do, but you really enjoy it, and it boosts your life. And so you choose to do it same thing for me. Like, sometimes I'll run it out because.

00:43:37:22 - 00:43:41:21
Tal Wanish
I like the feeling of running it out on comfortable terrain. It is.

00:43:41:21 - 00:43:44:19
Tal Wanish
Funny. Like you mentioned, it is fun to do dangerous

00:43:44:23 - 00:43:46:19
Kyle
Dangerous things. Well.

00:43:46:19 - 00:43:53:18
Tal Wanish
safely or feel safe doing them. And so it's the same situation there. And, you know, I, it's hard for me to.

00:43:53:18 - 00:44:00:28
Tal Wanish
Make risk assessments up on behalf of other people, whether that's like, hey, you need to wear a helmet. Hey, don't get bolts. Hey, you should play smart gear.

00:44:01:05 - 00:44:03:25
Tal Wanish
You shouldn't lead at all. Like, there's it's easy to slippery.

00:44:03:25 - 00:44:05:08
Tal Wanish
Slope yourself into.

00:44:05:11 - 00:44:05:20
Tal Wanish
Just.

00:44:05:20 - 00:44:07:07
Tal Wanish
Living in this, like, cushy box. And it's.

00:44:07:07 - 00:44:10:07
Tal Wanish
Like, I like doing this, like, as.

00:44:10:07 - 00:44:13:20
Tal Wanish
I've done it. And that's why I'm doing it. Like I'm not doing it just because I saw somebody else

00:44:14:08 - 00:44:35:05
Kyle
Yeah I really I love the fact you know you're someone that has I had a lot of data with, with track climbs and you had a close call. And so I think that you know your experience is, is extremely valuable. And I love like I'm a, I'm a proponent of you don't know if the piece is going to fall or piece is going to hold you until you fall.

00:44:35:07 - 00:44:58:11
Kyle
I feel like that's like a pretty honest thing to say in track climbing. And I think, like too many of us, and obviously this is mostly social media and, I think social media, while it's sometimes not a real perfect reflection, it's a distorted reflection of reality. But it still is a reflection of reality. And I think there's a lot of people out there that trust gears too much.

00:44:58:14 - 00:45:23:04
Kyle
And I think that, you know, I'll put a number two in or whatever, like that's a bomber truck piece. It's like, yeah, probably like 99%. Yeah, probably. It's probably really good. But I don't know. I think it's an arrogant thing to say 100%. This thing will hold in a fall. I just to me, I'm not willing to make my risk assessments on that fact.

00:45:23:08 - 00:45:42:12
Kyle
Right. It's like you never really know. And so for me, if like if my putting if my, chances of me coming off the wall are going up, I start to place more pieces, I start to like, mitigate the risk a bit more. Just so that I have a failsafe.

00:45:42:12 - 00:45:45:01
Tal Wanish
And I don't want to, like, promote gear fear.

00:45:45:01 - 00:45:47:06
Tal Wanish
Like, I think it's important that you trust.

00:45:47:08 - 00:45:47:27
Tal Wanish
Gear because it's.

00:45:47:27 - 00:45:49:09
Tal Wanish
Like, if you don't, why are you placing it.

00:45:49:09 - 00:45:52:27
Tal Wanish
At all? But I do, like, live by, like, two pieces between.

00:45:52:27 - 00:45:54:11
Tal Wanish
Me in the hospital. Right. Like, this.

00:45:54:11 - 00:45:54:25
Tal Wanish
Piece is for.

00:45:54:25 - 00:45:56:08
Tal Wanish
Mom. Like, I'm, like,

00:45:58:04 - 00:46:06:04
Kyle
Yeah, I like that.

00:46:06:07 - 00:46:07:17
Kyle
Yeah.

00:46:07:17 - 00:46:09:07
Tal Wanish
take risk, but I am.

00:46:09:08 - 00:46:12:09
Tal Wanish
Doing that calculation regularly. I'm.

00:46:12:09 - 00:46:21:15
Tal Wanish
Doing that whether it's sport climbing and hey, can I whip you? Like, can I drop it here? Do I need to like down, climb and take, doing that with gear? I'm doing that like.

00:46:21:18 - 00:46:28:05
Tal Wanish
You know, when I'm rappelling in from the top for root, like, is this anchor solid? Is my rope over this edge? Do I need to throw a rope protector?

00:46:28:06 - 00:46:28:23
Tal Wanish
Like, these are all.

00:46:28:23 - 00:46:36:03
Tal Wanish
Things that you're considering at all times. And that's part of what I love about climbing is it's just as much of a mental and cerebral sport as it is, like a

00:46:37:12 - 00:46:42:21
Kyle
100%. I don't have health insurance.

00:46:42:23 - 00:46:44:17
Kyle
It's a good one.

00:46:44:20 - 00:46:49:27
Kyle
It looks like I've got a wet crack story that we've missed.

00:46:50:20 - 00:46:54:19
Tal Wanish
Yeah, I think kind of, you know, there's these moments that.

00:46:54:19 - 00:46:56:08
Tal Wanish
You have in climbing where you.

00:46:56:08 - 00:46:57:25
Tal Wanish
Acknowledge how.

00:46:57:25 - 00:47:00:03
Tal Wanish
You've leveled up or you acknowledge that.

00:47:00:03 - 00:47:01:25
Tal Wanish
Hey, I this is a crucible.

00:47:01:25 - 00:47:03:14
Tal Wanish
Now for the skills that I've developed.

00:47:03:15 - 00:47:06:13
Tal Wanish
Like, I've been doing all of these things.

00:47:06:15 - 00:47:12:28
Tal Wanish
It it's not it's often not a higher grade. It's often not. Yes. This is the first of the grade.

00:47:12:28 - 00:47:14:13
Tal Wanish
And we had a moment.

00:47:14:20 - 00:47:18:14
Tal Wanish
So that same route that I rappelled off of the flake on.

00:47:18:17 - 00:47:20:18
Tal Wanish
Once that route was completed by Nathan, we.

00:47:20:18 - 00:47:22:18
Tal Wanish
Went to go get the third ascent of it.

00:47:22:20 - 00:47:28:18
Tal Wanish
And when we went up, the pitch above where we rappelled was now.

00:47:28:20 - 00:47:34:18
Tal Wanish
Like, cleaned and equipped. And we got there and it was a 150ft waterfall.

00:47:34:27 - 00:47:37:17
Kyle
Oh my God!

00:47:37:17 - 00:47:41:23
Tal Wanish
water over the entirety of the pitch, from anchor to anchor started.

00:47:41:25 - 00:47:44:22
Tal Wanish
At the top. Anchor actually started five feet below.

00:47:44:22 - 00:47:46:17
Tal Wanish
The top anchor. So you belay on a ledge, it.

00:47:46:17 - 00:47:48:08
Tal Wanish
Started seeping below the ledge.

00:47:48:08 - 00:47:56:00
Tal Wanish
You belay from and went all the way to the next anchor. And I got there and it was my lead, and I looked at my roommate and I said.

00:47:56:03 - 00:47:57:25
Tal Wanish
We can either keep going or.

00:47:57:25 - 00:48:03:13
Tal Wanish
We can bail off of that repel anchor that I told you about. And I pointed over there. He said, I am not going down

00:48:06:21 - 00:48:07:29
Tal Wanish
like 60 or 70.

00:48:07:29 - 00:48:09:21
Tal Wanish
Feet of a wet crack to start.

00:48:09:25 - 00:48:17:28
Tal Wanish
Where it already was. It's pretty good pro when it's dry, when it's soaking wet, a.

00:48:17:28 - 00:48:19:17
Tal Wanish
Lot of the stances you would place pro.

00:48:19:17 - 00:48:23:03
Tal Wanish
From are no longer available. And so your protections a little bit more.

00:48:23:05 - 00:48:26:01
Tal Wanish
Spaced out because you need to be on things that you can hold onto.

00:48:26:01 - 00:48:26:13
Tal Wanish
When they're wet.

00:48:26:13 - 00:48:31:06
Tal Wanish
Like you can't be like power ly backing a wet crack on wet feet.

00:48:31:08 - 00:48:31:29
Tal Wanish
And your gear.

00:48:31:29 - 00:48:35:11
Tal Wanish
Is just like a little bit more questionable, right? Like you don't know how well.

00:48:35:11 - 00:48:36:09
Tal Wanish
It's going to hold.

00:48:36:11 - 00:48:38:23
Tal Wanish
This is alpine, so, like, some of that water is.

00:48:38:23 - 00:48:53:13
Tal Wanish
More like ice when it's been sitting there, at 14,000ft or whatever. And, and then the from the last piece to the first boat is like 25 ish feet, which normally feels relatively comfortable because it's mostly good terrain.

00:48:53:13 - 00:48:56:26
Tal Wanish
And you do a last mantle up to the anchor, and there's like.

00:48:56:28 - 00:48:58:11
Tal Wanish
A pretty good edge that you.

00:48:58:11 - 00:49:09:18
Tal Wanish
Would hit to grab the last bolt. However, all this was a waterfall. So like, I was battling on what holds onto a wet ledge with wet feet to a wet edge to get to the first bolt.

00:49:09:20 - 00:49:14:21
Tal Wanish
And it was one of those moments where it was like these bolts are ten, 15, 20ft apart.

00:49:14:21 - 00:49:20:05
Tal Wanish
Like it's like 510 plus slab climbing when it's dry. It's currently a waterfall.

00:49:20:05 - 00:49:22:16
Tal Wanish
And on that pitch, I went through my.

00:49:22:16 - 00:49:23:24
Tal Wanish
Entire bag of chalk,

00:49:28:05 - 00:49:45:06
Kyle
Wow.

00:49:45:09 - 00:49:47:12
Kyle
Wow. Wow.

00:49:47:12 - 00:49:51:25
Tal Wanish
like, I that was still one of my prouder moments in climbing because it was.

00:49:53:02 - 00:49:58:17
Tal Wanish
It was one of those moments where it was like I could look up and be like, I'm pretty sure I got this. Like, I know I can create a plan.

00:49:58:17 - 00:50:05:26
Tal Wanish
On how to attack this. I know where my risk points are. I know where am I, like, really like you need to to be on top of it.

00:50:05:29 - 00:50:07:01
Tal Wanish
Points are

00:50:07:04 - 00:50:08:12
Tal Wanish
And where I can kind of relax a.

00:50:08:12 - 00:50:10:09
Tal Wanish
Bit and there are multiple moments where.

00:50:10:11 - 00:50:14:12
Tal Wanish
I mean, every bolt I pretty much hit, it was like I could take here. That would be really cool. I could take care.

00:50:14:15 - 00:50:16:16
Tal Wanish
Like rest and get off my feet.

00:50:16:16 - 00:50:29:12
Tal Wanish
And like, kind of think. And, I'm just like, pushing through. That was was really great. But that was one of the scarier leads also because it was one of those where I was faced. I was like, between a rock and a hard place, right? I had a lead that I really didn't want to do that I felt like I could.

00:50:29:12 - 00:50:30:29
Tal Wanish
Get injured on, or I could relive.

00:50:30:29 - 00:50:31:19
Tal Wanish
The worst rappelle

00:50:34:09 - 00:50:34:25
Kyle
Yeah.

00:50:34:25 - 00:50:46:04
Kyle
At least you had bolts on the on the pitch. And it wasn't like a pure trad climb up a waterfall.

00:50:46:07 - 00:50:51:03
Kyle
Oh, wow. So you had, like, 70ft of just trad gear on a on a waterfall.

00:50:51:05 - 00:50:52:04
Kyle
Wow.

00:50:52:07 - 00:51:02:26
Kyle
I had a similar story in Horseshoe Canyon. It was like a waterfall crack. And I climbed it with trad gear. And after the fact, I was like, that's the fucking dumbest thing I've ever done.

00:51:02:26 - 00:51:05:06
Tal Wanish
Canyon. There's so much undulations and stuff

00:51:05:06 - 00:51:16:24
Kyle
I know, and it's also like weird, soft sandstone, like. And it was like mossy. I don't know what the fuck I was thinking, but I just thank fucking God I didn't fall.

00:51:16:24 - 00:51:20:04
Tal Wanish
like 511 crack at the Titanic boulder in the.

00:51:20:04 - 00:51:22:02
Tal Wanish
Middle of horseshoe hell, like, 14 hours deep.

00:51:25:00 - 00:51:25:18
Tal Wanish
into it and I got.

00:51:25:18 - 00:51:33:16
Tal Wanish
Into, like, ring locks. It's hot and humid. Out my last piece, I was like, I immediately kicked with my foot and I had no idea what state it was.

00:51:33:18 - 00:51:38:01
Tal Wanish
And like the Titanic boulder, you're playing off of a ledge where like, if you fell, you would.

00:51:38:01 - 00:51:41:15
Tal Wanish
Likely just also roll back another 25ft off of a ledge once you.

00:51:41:15 - 00:51:42:17
Tal Wanish
Fell down because.

00:51:42:17 - 00:51:44:08
Tal Wanish
You'd hit the deck. And I was like.

00:51:44:11 - 00:51:45:16
Tal Wanish
Is that piece good? And they were

00:51:50:04 - 00:51:51:13
Tal Wanish
fumble in another piece and like.

00:51:51:13 - 00:51:53:04
Tal Wanish
Basically as I clipped it, my foot

00:51:55:23 - 00:52:14:26
Kyle
Damn. Damn close calls. We all have close calls. How how much of your survival up to this point would you say has been calculated? Like risk management versus luck?

00:52:14:26 - 00:52:15:01
Tal Wanish
good.

00:52:15:01 - 00:52:15:25
Tal Wanish
Question.

00:52:15:28 - 00:52:22:02
Tal Wanish
I think most of it has been calculated risk management. And that's not always I made a.

00:52:22:02 - 00:52:23:12
Tal Wanish
Great calculated decision in the.

00:52:23:12 - 00:52:26:28
Tal Wanish
Moment. There might be a I made a great calculated decision.

00:52:26:28 - 00:52:31:07
Tal Wanish
By like picking a partner who's really good at giving a belay.

00:52:31:09 - 00:52:36:12
Tal Wanish
So like the, the, the soft deck that I took, I had a partner.

00:52:36:12 - 00:52:38:25
Tal Wanish
Who, like, crush the belay. He was made to really take in a bunch.

00:52:38:25 - 00:52:40:08
Tal Wanish
Of slack, sit on the rope.

00:52:40:08 - 00:52:44:09
Tal Wanish
And, like, keep me from that being a full deck.

00:52:44:12 - 00:52:48:12
Tal Wanish
I like, so there's some times where you're.

00:52:48:14 - 00:52:54:25
Tal Wanish
Compound interest on good decisions made helps insulate you from a lot of situations.

00:52:54:28 - 00:52:56:11
Tal Wanish
I'm sure there's moments that.

00:52:56:11 - 00:52:58:05
Tal Wanish
I've missed where I was.

00:52:58:05 - 00:52:59:24
Tal Wanish
Lucky. I definitely put.

00:52:59:24 - 00:53:03:28
Tal Wanish
Myself in, like, some risky situations where something bad could have happened. So recently.

00:53:03:28 - 00:53:06:11
Tal Wanish
We went, I was teaching some new folks, had a bolt, a.

00:53:06:11 - 00:53:20:12
Tal Wanish
New route we were working on, like a five, five or something. It was very comfortable terrain, so I was just soloing while everybody else is on fixed ropes. And that was one of those things where like, somebody could have lost their balance, swung the fixed rope and knocked me off the wall and like, that would have been that or.

00:53:20:14 - 00:53:24:04
Tal Wanish
I've, I was teaching a friend had a multi pitch. We were like a pretty nice belay ledge.

00:53:24:11 - 00:53:41:28
Tal Wanish
He went to unclip himself and accidentally unclipped me and it was like, oh, I didn't notice that. Like I could have like that could have been really bad. I could have sat back, that, you know, I think most people have had moments where they like, we're thinking about sitting back in a situation where they weren't actually on belay or weren't, you know, something like that, and they didn't.

00:53:42:01 - 00:53:42:25
Tal Wanish
And so I for.

00:53:42:25 - 00:53:51:13
Tal Wanish
Sure been lucky. I'm not going to pretend like that hasn't happened. But I think most of my closest calls have been risk assessments that went

00:53:53:08 - 00:53:54:02
Kyle
Yeah.

00:53:54:04 - 00:54:08:21
Kyle
And I think. What do they say? Like the risk favors the prepared. And so, like. Like you said, the more of these calculated decisions we make, the more we kind of align ourselves to for risk to or. Sorry for luck to eb in our in our favor.

00:54:08:28 - 00:54:11:28
Kyle
Let's talk about, your, your legacy.

00:54:11:28 - 00:54:39:05
Kyle
your passion and your, your artistic expression on the rock. You've created 150 new routes in four years, and 130 of them have been in the last three. That's a lot of routes. And it is a definitive direction that we choose as climbers to continue to consume versus to to give back.

00:54:39:08 - 00:54:52:26
Kyle
And we've talked about that kind of switch in stewardship. Yeah. So let's talk about that passion. Let's talk about that motivation and dive into some of these kind of larger efforts that you've done.

00:54:52:26 - 00:54:54:14
Tal Wanish
facilitated a lot of those first.

00:54:54:14 - 00:55:20:11
Tal Wanish
Descents is I don't develop routes. Like, I'm not looking to develop routes. I'm looking to develop areas. And so that means that I'm putting up things that maybe I'm not necessarily super stoked on because I want it to be a cohesive area. Right? Like, I might be like, hey, I've got another route that's like been ear warming me, but like, this route is what completes this crag or makes this now a destination for people of a variety of levels or things like that.

00:55:21:17 - 00:55:24:03
Tal Wanish
And part of the reason for that.

00:55:24:03 - 00:55:32:03
Tal Wanish
Is because I think what has been like my favorite thing about developing is getting to know an area intimately. It's I.

00:55:32:04 - 00:55:33:16
Tal Wanish
I the one thing.

00:55:33:16 - 00:55:36:01
Tal Wanish
So I mentioned, like, I think you should always develop for your.

00:55:36:01 - 00:55:37:19
Tal Wanish
Own reasons. The one thing.

00:55:37:19 - 00:55:46:10
Tal Wanish
I think needs to be true across everything is that you need to give a shit about the place where you're putting in a route that you need to care. I hate when people like.

00:55:46:12 - 00:55:47:17
Tal Wanish
Go to a place for the.

00:55:47:17 - 00:55:54:23
Tal Wanish
First time at or out bounce like they have no connection to the area. They have no interest in learning about the history of the area, the ethics of the area, anything.

00:55:54:25 - 00:55:55:16
Tal Wanish
I think you need.

00:55:55:16 - 00:55:59:19
Tal Wanish
To care about the area like I think that's important to have some skin in the game.

00:55:59:22 - 00:56:02:01
Tal Wanish
In McKenzie Long's book, This.

00:56:02:01 - 00:56:07:07
Tal Wanish
Contested Land, she talks about how she had a conversation with a Paiute elder.

00:56:07:09 - 00:56:08:22
Tal Wanish
Who their.

00:56:08:24 - 00:56:09:15
Tal Wanish
Concept.

00:56:09:15 - 00:56:10:01
Tal Wanish
Of.

00:56:10:03 - 00:56:10:13
Tal Wanish
Like.

00:56:10:19 - 00:56:11:15
Tal Wanish
Residence.

00:56:11:15 - 00:56:14:04
Tal Wanish
Or land ownership, they didn't say, like, oh.

00:56:14:11 - 00:56:16:13
Tal Wanish
Where do you live? Or.

00:56:16:16 - 00:56:19:22
Tal Wanish
You know, what land you owned or things like that. The question is.

00:56:19:25 - 00:56:22:01
Tal Wanish
Who's whose land song.

00:56:22:01 - 00:56:25:04
Tal Wanish
Do you sing or what? What land song do you sing?

00:56:25:09 - 00:56:26:26
Tal Wanish
So the concept of knowing.

00:56:27:00 - 00:56:30:00
Tal Wanish
A land well enough to know its song, like, you.

00:56:30:00 - 00:56:30:14
Tal Wanish
Know.

00:56:30:14 - 00:56:34:25
Tal Wanish
The migratory patterns that birds, you know where to hunt, you know, to find water, you know.

00:56:35:01 - 00:56:36:03
Tal Wanish
What the land.

00:56:36:03 - 00:56:37:26
Tal Wanish
Looks like and all of these different seasons.

00:56:38:01 - 00:56:39:29
Tal Wanish
And the only way you do that is by.

00:56:39:29 - 00:56:44:01
Tal Wanish
Spending an immense amount of time in this area. And so.

00:56:44:04 - 00:56:44:22
Tal Wanish
Wonderland.

00:56:44:22 - 00:57:08:08
Tal Wanish
The area that I've been largely developing, wrote the guidebook to like that's what that's been for me is like, I can point out where to forage mushrooms, where to get raspberries, like where the elk are crossing and when, where to find, like all of these different things. And like, that is just such a special place because of that, because it feels like this second home to me, because I'm so familiar with it.

00:57:09:06 - 00:57:09:23
Tal Wanish
And so I think.

00:57:09:23 - 00:57:16:10
Tal Wanish
That's what's been the most special part of development for me, is not just bouncing around to these different crags and filling in the blanks or whatever.

00:57:16:10 - 00:57:17:08
Tal Wanish
It's truly.

00:57:17:08 - 00:57:18:15
Tal Wanish
Building an area from.

00:57:18:18 - 00:57:20:21
Tal Wanish
From scratch. And the other side of that, beyond.

00:57:20:21 - 00:57:25:13
Tal Wanish
My, my personal experience, is building a community now for that area. It's building.

00:57:25:16 - 00:57:25:23
Tal Wanish
You know.

00:57:25:23 - 00:57:30:24
Tal Wanish
You have your rifle climbers, you have your red rock climbers, your Yosemite Valley climbers, things like that, like.

00:57:30:29 - 00:57:32:02
Tal Wanish
Creating a community.

00:57:32:02 - 00:57:37:24
Tal Wanish
Of Wonderland climbers, where people come out and you start seeing faces you recognize routinely. And it's like where.

00:57:37:24 - 00:57:43:00
Tal Wanish
Are you going this weekend? Like, yeah, I'll be out at Wonderland again. Like, that's such a cool situation.

00:57:43:00 - 00:57:47:26
Tal Wanish
And so, you know, I when I was releasing the guidebook, I had a lot of people ask me like, oh.

00:57:47:28 - 00:57:48:25
Tal Wanish
Like how many do you need to.

00:57:48:25 - 00:57:50:10
Tal Wanish
Sell for this to feel success? Or like.

00:57:50:10 - 00:57:51:26
Tal Wanish
What do you need for this to.

00:57:51:26 - 00:57:58:27
Tal Wanish
Feel like it was worth it. And for me, it was like, I just need one person to develop their own personal relationship with this area.

00:57:58:27 - 00:58:00:07
Tal Wanish
Like, nobody's ever going to have.

00:58:00:07 - 00:58:09:25
Tal Wanish
The same relationship I have with the area. And I think that's great. Like, I don't want anybody have my relationship. I want people to have their own, and I think that's awesome.

00:58:09:28 - 00:58:16:00
Tal Wanish
From a root perspective, climbing is.

00:58:16:02 - 00:58:20:08
Tal Wanish
In our DNA, right? It's another way for us to interact with the world.

00:58:20:10 - 00:58:23:02
Tal Wanish
And so that's just another way to.

00:58:23:02 - 00:58:24:01
Tal Wanish
Learn that song.

00:58:24:01 - 00:58:25:17
Tal Wanish
Is to to understand.

00:58:25:17 - 00:58:31:17
Tal Wanish
How the rock forms, how movement on it, how passage on it occurs, things like that.

00:58:31:17 - 00:58:38:14
Tal Wanish
And, I think for me, I've never been super creative, but I really feel.

00:58:38:14 - 00:58:42:19
Tal Wanish
This sense of rhythm while climbing and this like, musical like number.

00:58:42:19 - 00:58:43:25
Tal Wanish
While and especially on.

00:58:43:25 - 00:58:52:06
Tal Wanish
The technical South Platte granite. You see, it really does feel like a dance on the rock. And so that's something that's just feels so creative to me, is recognizing the.

00:58:52:06 - 00:58:57:20
Tal Wanish
Rhythm of it. Like you put in bolts where the rhythm allows you to, you don't. You do not mess up with the rhythm.

00:58:57:20 - 00:58:58:21
Tal Wanish
As a cardinal said.

00:58:58:21 - 00:59:01:21
Tal Wanish
Like you do not put a bolt in the middle of a good moving.

00:59:01:21 - 00:59:04:19
Tal Wanish
Section, things like that. And so, yeah.

00:59:04:19 - 00:59:05:25
Tal Wanish
I've just loved it so much.

00:59:05:25 - 00:59:06:21
Tal Wanish
And like, I never.

00:59:06:21 - 00:59:09:09
Tal Wanish
Aimed to have this many first ascents.

00:59:09:11 - 00:59:10:09
Tal Wanish
It just happened that.

00:59:10:09 - 00:59:11:16
Tal Wanish
My goal last year was a.

00:59:11:16 - 00:59:26:06
Tal Wanish
Vertical mile of new phase, which I managed to hit, but like for the most part, it's just it's just happened, like, it's just I've, I moved from place to place and kind of follow the passion of like, where am I stoked on here right now? Like, where do I want to be adding routes? Where do I want to be doing?

00:59:26:06 - 00:59:27:16
Tal Wanish
Where do I want to learn?

00:59:28:00 - 00:59:35:03
Kyle
Where do you feel like the difference lies between someone who might be chasing routes versus areas?

00:59:35:14 - 00:59:45:15
Tal Wanish
I think, I don't know, it's hard for me. It's honestly like, hard for me to get in the mindset of chasing routes. Mostly because I haven't talked to a lot of folks about why. And it's.

00:59:45:15 - 00:59:46:21
Tal Wanish
Just not the concept.

00:59:46:21 - 00:59:48:02
Tal Wanish
I think in general, it's really easy.

00:59:48:02 - 00:59:51:29
Tal Wanish
To just be like, I just want to climb that route. And so I'm going to do that route.

00:59:52:02 - 00:59:52:19
Tal Wanish
I'm like, that makes.

00:59:52:19 - 01:00:05:12
Tal Wanish
Sense to me. Being like, that looks like fun. I want to climb it. So I'm going to enable it. Like that's kind of how I got into development is I saw a lot of rock I wanted to climb and didn't want to walk around begging people to equip it. Right. So like, I'll learn to do it myself.

01:00:05:14 - 01:00:12:29
Tal Wanish
And so I get that it's just hard for me to imagine being in a situation where I can do that, and then not extending.

01:00:12:29 - 01:00:15:19
Tal Wanish
That to basically every stretch of rock and that. Yeah.

01:00:15:21 - 01:00:19:26
Tal Wanish
Like that's it's my habit is I believe that line looks cool. And then I put it in, I'm like, well, now that that's.

01:00:19:26 - 01:00:24:11
Tal Wanish
Done, like that line looks cool and that line looks cool. And all of a sudden you have a crag, right?

01:00:25:04 - 01:00:25:15
Kyle
Yeah.

01:00:25:19 - 01:00:45:14
Kyle
No, it's really cool, man. And I think that that's like, definitely the way, at least from a community's perspective, that's the way it should go. And it also doesn't necessarily need to be all on your shoulders. Right. Like you could also get community involvement as well. I mean like do there's so many routes out here like it's impossible for me to put up all of these, like come out, help.

01:00:45:14 - 01:00:58:25
Kyle
Like let's develop like, what inspires you? Like, let's get this community involved in, like establishing this area. And like you said, building a community, around a crag is, is really special. And honestly, probably one of the most rewarding things to see.

01:00:58:25 - 01:01:03:07
Tal Wanish
think of the 130 ish phase I've done around Wonderland.

01:01:03:10 - 01:01:11:26
Tal Wanish
I've had 50 different people involved in those. Like, I've been able to bring out 50 people under those. So, like I've had at Standing Mountain Project threads and Facebook threads or whatever, being like.

01:01:11:26 - 01:01:14:14
Tal Wanish
Hey, please come help, like I this is more rock than I could.

01:01:14:14 - 01:01:15:09
Tal Wanish
Touch in a lifetime.

01:01:15:09 - 01:01:16:11
Tal Wanish
Like, please come.

01:01:16:14 - 01:01:17:20
Tal Wanish
Be involved and.

01:01:17:23 - 01:01:30:24
Tal Wanish
Like it's one of those things I have a lot of people ask me, okay, when are you going to come help out here? And most of developing is developers being like, oh dude, that area you're looking at, you're working on looks awesome. Look, come, come check out my spot some time. And they're like, oh yeah, dude, I've been meaning to.

01:01:30:24 - 01:01:34:06
Tal Wanish
It looks great. You should come check out my spot. And it's like everybody has.

01:01:34:06 - 01:01:35:10
Tal Wanish
Their own honeypot. They don't want

01:01:38:20 - 01:01:44:13
Tal Wanish
I mean, I think I get asked a lot, like, when are you planning on.

01:01:44:15 - 01:01:46:03
Tal Wanish
Going to check out other places?

01:01:46:03 - 01:01:47:22
Tal Wanish
And you mentioned art as.

01:01:47:22 - 01:01:50:02
Tal Wanish
It relates to route development and.

01:01:50:05 - 01:01:51:08
Tal Wanish
Pal Herring, who's.

01:01:51:08 - 01:01:54:03
Tal Wanish
An author for Field and Stream, has this quote.

01:01:54:06 - 01:01:59:14
Tal Wanish
He says the the whole thing about the process of art is the creation of art.

01:01:59:14 - 01:02:02:18
Tal Wanish
It's the process of finding the place your soul first awakened.

01:02:02:21 - 01:02:05:28
Tal Wanish
And in that sense of I see.

01:02:05:28 - 01:02:26:08
Tal Wanish
Route development as an art, at least for me. That's what it feels like is anytime I'm out there, I feel like I'm back at my roots, like you're back in this baseline. And that's just what you're chasing every time. It's not necessarily about the specific route. It's not necessarily about the specific move at specific sequence. It's just that process.

01:02:26:08 - 01:02:27:24
Tal Wanish
Of, for me.

01:02:27:27 - 01:02:30:10
Tal Wanish
That is where I'm grounded.

01:02:30:12 - 01:02:34:05
Tal Wanish
And so like beyond that, I'm not, you know, the rock is.

01:02:34:05 - 01:02:36:25
Tal Wanish
Its own canvas. I'm not creating holds.

01:02:36:28 - 01:02:37:08
Tal Wanish
I'm not.

01:02:37:08 - 01:02:42:20
Tal Wanish
Doing anything there. Like, I'm just taking what the Rock gives me and trying to equip it in a way that we.

01:02:42:20 - 01:02:47:24
Tal Wanish
Can enjoy it. But so in a lot of ways, I don't feel like.

01:02:47:26 - 01:02:53:02
Tal Wanish
Root development is artistic in the way that skateboarding or surfing or some of these other action sports might.

01:02:53:02 - 01:02:54:00
Tal Wanish
Be.

01:02:54:02 - 01:02:58:19
Tal Wanish
But from that definition of art, I feel like it's.

01:02:58:21 - 01:02:59:09
Tal Wanish
The

01:03:02:02 - 01:03:21:20
Kyle
I mean I think it's, I think it's just a form of self-expression. And we're using nature as a medium. Which is really cool. And I think certain types of route development lend towards a more artistic expression, like linking, like, I would say the Dawn wall is probably one of the most artistic like forms of expression of climbing.

01:03:21:20 - 01:03:42:06
Kyle
It's like there's no crack. It's not obvious. You're linking together a seemingly impossible phase. And it's like not just one pitch, it's 30 pitches or whatever it is. And so it's like it you have to have a vision, for what you think is possible. And then you're just out there trying to figure out if it actually goes, yeah.

01:03:42:07 - 01:03:45:18
Kyle
Nothing's obvious. So it is cool, man.

01:03:47:04 - 01:03:48:08
Tal Wanish
I think most people are not.

01:03:48:08 - 01:04:02:00
Tal Wanish
Taking it from this, like, manifest destiny conquering standpoint. It's truly just like a self exploration of, like, that's that was like every, every developer I know at least like, finishes these things like that was really cool. On to the next.

01:04:02:01 - 01:04:11:18
Tal Wanish
Like it's never about like, oh yeah, I did that. Like that was me. Like it's always like, oh yeah, we had a great time. That was really cool. I learned a lot about myself, about the Rock. I got to move in this cool way.

01:04:11:18 - 01:04:15:05
Tal Wanish
I found a sequence I'd never done anything similar to again.

01:04:15:07 - 01:04:16:17
Tal Wanish
Got my own. This other formation.

01:04:16:17 - 01:04:18:03
Tal Wanish
Can't wait to check it out.

01:04:18:03 - 01:04:21:05
Kyle
It's about the journey and not the destination.

01:04:21:05 - 01:04:22:18
Tal Wanish
what this big route that I've been.

01:04:22:18 - 01:04:24:08
Tal Wanish
Working on in that cheap rock massif.

01:04:24:08 - 01:04:29:03
Tal Wanish
It was always like, and I hope it goes to the top. But if it doesn't, I join the list of a bunch of.

01:04:29:03 - 01:04:30:25
Tal Wanish
Roots that tried to make it to the top and couldn't.

01:04:30:25 - 01:04:33:11
Tal Wanish
And at least I got to be in a cool position while doing it.

01:04:33:11 - 01:04:36:20
Tal Wanish
And and, you know, just be up there and see what it was about.

01:04:36:20 - 01:04:57:27
Tal Wanish
And yeah, most days we've been up there. It's been miserably windy. The last time we went up there, it was so windy that you couldn't repel, you couldn't like the force on the rope was so strong you couldn't feed it through your device. Yeah. And so I started repelling, and I this is another, this one was a 35 meter freaking

01:04:59:29 - 01:05:05:12
Tal Wanish
I got about 30ft down, and then this, like, 60 mile an hour gusts came, I got we tossed the ropes.

01:05:05:12 - 01:05:05:25
Tal Wanish
Which was a

01:05:06:21 - 01:05:12:02
Kyle
Yeah. Saddle bags? Yeah.

01:05:14:01 - 01:05:17:13
Tal Wanish
And the rope hit. And I just sat there like I didn't even have.

01:05:17:13 - 01:05:18:16
Tal Wanish
Like, breaks. Or I was just, like.

01:05:18:23 - 01:05:20:16
Tal Wanish
Just waiting for the rope to die down enough

01:05:22:04 - 01:05:24:09
Tal Wanish
And then you just repel as fast as you could.

01:05:24:16 - 01:05:30:01
Tal Wanish
And see how far you get. And then the rope would hit and you would stop. You'd blow another 60ft over, and you'd sit there and.

01:05:30:01 - 01:05:31:26
Tal Wanish
Wait to swing back so that you could go back.

01:05:31:26 - 01:05:35:00
Tal Wanish
Down. It was a nightmare. And I'm so grateful for all of.

01:05:35:00 - 01:05:35:15
Tal Wanish
Those moments.

01:05:35:15 - 01:05:38:25
Tal Wanish
Because it's such a cool position situation.

01:05:38:25 - 01:05:40:16
Tal Wanish
To share with people. And,

01:05:40:18 - 01:05:42:27
Tal Wanish
You know, I did the first two.

01:05:42:27 - 01:05:48:27
Tal Wanish
And a half pitches solo, rope solo, like, and, you know, doing all that ground up and.

01:05:48:29 - 01:05:50:04
Tal Wanish
It's just like a, it's.

01:05:50:04 - 01:05:56:21
Tal Wanish
Just such a cerebral I, this is such a me moment. Which is just really, really neat.

01:05:56:25 - 01:05:58:00
Kyle
Yeah.

01:05:58:02 - 01:06:04:03
Kyle
Not a lot of people get those. It's cool for us to, to find those. And in the world of climbing.

01:06:04:03 - 01:06:06:02
Tal Wanish
once you that's when I mean, when you just, like, find.

01:06:06:02 - 01:06:07:01
Tal Wanish
Your passion, like find.

01:06:07:01 - 01:06:15:25
Tal Wanish
Those, find those things that you come back from the day and you're like. It's really easy for crag days to blend together, find the thing that you're like, I could do 100.

01:06:15:25 - 01:06:23:26
Tal Wanish
Of these days, and they'd all feel unique. I would remember every one of them. And that's what development is, is a lot of developers have that habit of giving all their roots for stars.

01:06:27:02 - 01:06:32:15
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.

01:06:32:17 - 01:06:34:01
Kyle
Yeah, that makes sense.

01:06:34:01 - 01:06:52:23
Kyle
I send professional recording equipment to every single guest to ensure that you get top tier audio and video quality, and those costs add up. Right now, the show is also completely ad free and I would love to keep it that way. So if you've been enjoying the Climbing Majority podcast, we'd like to help keep this podcast ad free and want to help me cover shipping costs.

01:06:52:27 - 01:07:10:17
Kyle
Consider joining our Patreon for as little as $5 a month. You can help support the show and you'll get access to exclusive episodes. You can find the link in our show notes or head to Patreon.com slash the climbing Majority podcast. That's Patreon.com slash the Climbing Majority podcast.

01:07:10:17 - 01:07:15:17
Kyle
Let's talk about some of your specific proudest phase that you've done.

01:07:15:17 - 01:07:17:10
Kyle
What's at the top of the list for you?

01:07:17:17 - 01:07:18:29
Tal Wanish
So the one I can recommend.

01:07:18:29 - 01:07:22:01
Tal Wanish
Everybody is this route called Man Eater.

01:07:22:03 - 01:07:23:23
Tal Wanish
It's one of the I'm like pretty.

01:07:23:23 - 01:07:30:29
Tal Wanish
Conservative with my star ratings, and it's one of the few I would give four stars, like, anywhere you put it anywhere. It's it's a classic. It's like a.

01:07:30:29 - 01:07:34:03
Tal Wanish
150ft traversing Bombay.

01:07:34:03 - 01:07:34:29
Tal Wanish
Chimney.

01:07:35:18 - 01:07:44:18
Kyle
Oh my God.

01:07:44:18 - 01:07:55:19
Tal Wanish
climb it, you should just do it. Which is like singles to six. There's singles like 1 to 6 or something like that. And then like eight bolts after that.

01:07:55:22 - 01:07:58:24
Tal Wanish
It is just insane. It was ground.

01:07:58:24 - 01:08:04:03
Tal Wanish
Up because how can you bolt Bombay chimney that traverses 150ft top down?

01:08:04:03 - 01:08:06:10
Tal Wanish
Yeah, the roots. An absolute dogfight. I've seen like.

01:08:06:10 - 01:08:08:18
Tal Wanish
Five, nine trad dads.

01:08:08:20 - 01:08:11:08
Tal Wanish
Float up at. No problem. And I've seen V12.

01:08:11:08 - 01:08:14:02
Tal Wanish
Boulders go bolt to bolt on it like it is.

01:08:14:04 - 01:08:15:18
Tal Wanish
It's just such a foreign.

01:08:15:18 - 01:08:18:16
Tal Wanish
Style of climbing that really rewards.

01:08:18:19 - 01:08:21:28
Tal Wanish
Aggressiveness towards it. Like, move fast.

01:08:21:28 - 01:08:22:20
Tal Wanish
And just.

01:08:22:20 - 01:08:25:03
Tal Wanish
Hope that your feet don't pick.

01:08:25:06 - 01:08:27:07
Tal Wanish
Up because I've seen it's, you know, it's a, it's.

01:08:27:07 - 01:08:31:08
Tal Wanish
A traverse like you're going to pendulum, if you, if you swing and.

01:08:31:08 - 01:08:31:22
Tal Wanish
It's like.

01:08:31:27 - 01:08:51:08
Tal Wanish
But I mean, it's super safe. It's, there's nothing to hit the big Bombay chimney and it into this anchor. And then if you are really looking to suffer the next pitch above it is same grade five fun. A lot less fun. As you go up, you continue this crack, and then it's a double overhanging Bombay chimney.

01:08:51:08 - 01:08:51:17
Tal Wanish
So.

01:08:51:17 - 01:08:55:24
Tal Wanish
Or double, it's overhanging and flaring. So it overhangs like 30 degrees and.

01:08:55:24 - 01:08:57:10
Tal Wanish
It flares out. So it's trying to push.

01:08:57:10 - 01:09:06:07
Tal Wanish
You, but you have a perfect hand crack like two feet inside of it. And so the whole time that you're like, it would take God.

01:09:06:07 - 01:09:07:23
Tal Wanish
Himself to rip me out of here and.

01:09:07:23 - 01:09:11:11
Tal Wanish
To fall out of here. I have no idea how to move up

01:09:21:18 - 01:09:22:04
Tal Wanish
a.

01:09:22:07 - 01:09:27:11
Tal Wanish
That is like a 60ft pitch. The FAA of that probably took me 35 minutes, mostly cursing.

01:09:27:16 - 01:09:35:26
Tal Wanish
I ripped three holes. I ripped a hole in both of my, legs and my shirt on this, like, just it was outrageous.

01:09:35:26 - 01:09:41:25
Tal Wanish
It's called a narrow escape. And, Maneater gets its name because the head at the end of the crack looks like a

01:09:42:26 - 01:09:44:15
Kyle
Whoa!

01:09:44:15 - 01:09:44:22
Tal Wanish
whole.

01:09:44:22 - 01:09:46:06
Tal Wanish
Whole crag is cyclops themed.

01:09:46:06 - 01:09:52:26
Tal Wanish
And the coolest thing about man Eater is that Bombay Chimney is, like, 15ft deep, and it's.

01:09:53:13 - 01:09:55:27
Tal Wanish
It's like a steep, an acute enough angle.

01:09:55:27 - 01:10:01:21
Tal Wanish
That it forms that you can climb the outside of it as this just horrific power underplaying.

01:10:01:23 - 01:10:03:25
Tal Wanish
And so it looks a lot like Brant Barg.

01:10:03:25 - 01:10:06:28
Tal Wanish
On Slayer and Cottonwood Canyon, which is like a 13 D.

01:10:07:01 - 01:10:08:14
Tal Wanish
This one's probably a touch easier.

01:10:08:14 - 01:10:10:26
Tal Wanish
It hasn't been sent yet, but it's somewhere in that like 13

01:10:12:06 - 01:10:13:08
Kyle
Wow.

01:10:13:08 - 01:10:24:15
Tal Wanish
shares the same first 30ft. And then you duck out of the chimney and you just you start slapping and moving your feet as fast as you can. There's no rest. You get one knee bar right before you start under clinging. And you were just.

01:10:24:18 - 01:10:31:18
Tal Wanish
Horrific under clinging for for 50ft until you can get this like jug and do this weird shoulder press to get out of it. But it's.

01:10:31:18 - 01:10:33:26
Tal Wanish
This is an insanely cool.

01:10:33:29 - 01:10:34:28
Tal Wanish
Feature that it's just.

01:10:34:29 - 01:10:38:00
Tal Wanish
It's unlike anything I've ever seen before, other than maybe.

01:10:38:00 - 01:10:45:21
Tal Wanish
The modern coach stronghold. So that I would say that's like my I tell everybody I'm like, go do that. Like that's.

01:10:45:21 - 01:10:46:18
Tal Wanish
That's the route.

01:10:46:18 - 01:10:49:18
Tal Wanish
I would put anywhere in the, in the world. And I think it would be a

01:10:50:18 - 01:10:52:22
Kyle
Where is it?

01:10:52:25 - 01:11:00:11
Kyle
Oh, it's in Wonderland. Okay. Cool. Badass. Dude.

01:11:00:13 - 01:11:02:12
Kyle
Yeah.

01:11:02:12 - 01:11:07:05
Tal Wanish
So that's at this crag called the Ghost Town Crag. So in Wonderland, there's a ghost town.

01:11:07:08 - 01:11:08:25
Tal Wanish
And this crag is right.

01:11:08:27 - 01:11:09:05
Tal Wanish
Near.

01:11:09:05 - 01:11:14:06
Tal Wanish
That ghost towns, a ghost town like most I've never met another person who knows about it.

01:11:14:08 - 01:11:20:23
Tal Wanish
And, it's right by that ghost town. And this crag forms a big open book where one side is 510 ish.

01:11:20:28 - 01:11:22:21
Tal Wanish
Slab climbing featured slab climbing.

01:11:22:21 - 01:11:25:20
Tal Wanish
Really fun. There's a huge roof in the middle, and then on the.

01:11:25:20 - 01:11:30:26
Tal Wanish
Right side, it's just like a 25 degree overhanging jug hall panel.

01:11:30:29 - 01:11:41:06
Tal Wanish
There's two routes on it. One of them is called, scream. It's like a 12. That, is the hardest thing I've bolted ground up. I planned on drilling from hooks and.

01:11:41:06 - 01:11:42:12
Tal Wanish
Cams, but none of them would.

01:11:42:12 - 01:11:59:08
Tal Wanish
Hold, so I would just. I'd climb up, I drill half of the bolt out, pull the drill out, whip, climb up, finish drilling the hole, pull the drill out, whip, climb up, put the bolt in. I just did that the whole way up. And there's a run out from the last bolt to the anchor. Because once I put in the last bolt,

01:12:00:24 - 01:12:03:08
Kyle
Bugs.

01:12:03:08 - 01:12:05:01
Tal Wanish
and,

01:12:05:04 - 01:12:08:27
Tal Wanish
That run out is kind of where it gets its name, because it's also like the red point.

01:12:08:27 - 01:12:10:08
Tal Wanish
Crux, like it's no harder than any.

01:12:10:08 - 01:12:11:22
Tal Wanish
Other part of the route. You're just super.

01:12:11:22 - 01:12:13:03
Tal Wanish
Juiced by that point, and you.

01:12:13:03 - 01:12:14:24
Tal Wanish
Don't have like, a glory jug to clip.

01:12:14:24 - 01:12:17:15
Tal Wanish
Off of. And so most of us.

01:12:17:15 - 01:12:22:00
Tal Wanish
Myself included, have taken the 30ft screamer or whatever from the top. It's about like 12.

01:12:22:04 - 01:12:22:21
Tal Wanish
10 to 12.

01:12:22:21 - 01:12:24:21
Tal Wanish
Feet from the last bolt to the anchor. So if you blow.

01:12:24:21 - 01:12:26:10
Tal Wanish
Clipping the anchor, which I have.

01:12:26:13 - 01:12:29:22
Tal Wanish
It's a big fall, but you just hit space.

01:12:29:24 - 01:12:36:27
Tal Wanish
So for Ain't Dead yet, we did that as well. And I really hate when people make harder routes significantly.

01:12:36:27 - 01:12:46:04
Tal Wanish
Safer that don't need to be, like, way tightly bolted, even though there's no risk. And so the run out from the last bolt of ain't dead yet to the anchor is even bigger.

01:12:46:07 - 01:12:55:02
Tal Wanish
It's like an extra 3 or 4ft of harder climbing. And, that was the hardest route I'd ever done. Put it up. Like.

01:12:55:02 - 01:12:58:02
Tal Wanish
There's nothing I would change about the route. The movement is insanely fun.

01:12:58:02 - 01:13:00:01
Tal Wanish
You get, like, a call your mom never.

01:13:00:01 - 01:13:02:17
Tal Wanish
Rest after the crux. Which is like, the crux.

01:13:02:17 - 01:13:05:13
Tal Wanish
Is like a, you know, a like a it would be like a.

01:13:05:13 - 01:13:08:18
Tal Wanish
Tension board, classic type boulder problem.

01:13:08:20 - 01:13:09:01
Tal Wanish
And then.

01:13:09:01 - 01:13:10:03
Tal Wanish
You just start doing, like.

01:13:10:03 - 01:13:12:03
Tal Wanish
Really thoughtful.

01:13:12:05 - 01:13:24:23
Tal Wanish
Kind of like good edges and a little bit of jug bashing up to the anchors, which, like, finishes on this, just like huge dead point at the top of the wall to like a victory jug that you clip the anchors off of. And I took that screamer so many.

01:13:24:23 - 01:13:25:20
Tal Wanish
Times.

01:13:25:21 - 01:13:29:24
Tal Wanish
That's like like the first time we gone. It's one of those routes. The first time we got on it, my buddy.

01:13:29:24 - 01:13:37:26
Tal Wanish
Was like, dude, this is so messed up. Like, I can't believe you. It like this. This is I would never do this again. And then he came back out and we actually found the sequence and he was like,

01:13:42:02 - 01:13:44:16
Kyle
Cool.

01:13:44:16 - 01:13:51:21
Tal Wanish
that scared me every time I tied into it and, like to finally send it just was such a really.

01:13:51:21 - 01:13:53:00
Tal Wanish
And it was like, you know, again, it's.

01:13:53:00 - 01:14:00:00
Tal Wanish
One of those more irrational fears of, like, I have nothing to hit if I fall here, but what if my rope just broke or something.

01:14:00:06 - 01:14:03:04
Tal Wanish
Like what? I, I even upgraded the crux bolt that you whip onto.

01:14:03:04 - 01:14:07:17
Tal Wanish
To like a half inch. Like a four inch by half inch sleeve bolt, just to feel better

01:14:07:17 - 01:14:19:04
Kyle
You know, like, if my rope breaks, I shouldn't be climbing.

01:14:19:07 - 01:14:26:10
Kyle
Yeah. Cool. What's it go? It. Nice. Cool.

01:14:26:10 - 01:14:27:14
Tal Wanish
whole wall, pretty much.

01:14:27:14 - 01:14:37:01
Tal Wanish
Everything on it is super fun. But that one was the crown jewel. It's the steepest line. It's like right in the middle of the face. It's the hardest line of the crag. It's super

01:14:37:08 - 01:14:38:18
Kyle
Cool.

01:14:38:20 - 01:15:19:28
Kyle
Rad. Dude, what about, So you're a younger route developer. How do you feel about when you're gone? Like, let's say, man, it's been 70 years and man eaters there, and people are thinking like, they're like softer climbers, and they're just like, man, that run out sucks. Like, let's put a bolt there. Like, how do you feel about people in your shoes that are older now, like the aging population of route developers that have put up roots that they're proud of, that are bold, and they're kind of like getting to the point where they're going to die off and their roots are going to be kind of left up to the community to decide whether

01:15:19:28 - 01:15:32:26
Kyle
or not we should be retro bolting these and stuff, like, what are your thoughts on that topic? If they're dead, bolt it.

01:15:32:28 - 01:15:35:23
Kyle
Hahahahahahahaha yeah.

01:15:35:23 - 01:15:44:00
Tal Wanish
not, I'm not super tied to it. Like I had the experience I wanted. And that's like, the most I can ask for these routes I would like. I'm fine with people if they want to add.

01:15:44:00 - 01:15:55:20
Tal Wanish
Bolts to my routes. Now, I'm generally okay with that. I would just like to be involved, like, as much as I can. Again, like, I think like the rhythms of Cardinal sin. And I would hate to have somebody who doesn't know what they're doing just drop a bolt in the middle of whoever.

01:15:55:20 - 01:16:03:21
Tal Wanish
But manage is a great example. It finishes with like a 35ft run out to the anchors that you can protect anywhere.

01:16:03:21 - 01:16:04:21
Tal Wanish
If you bring a five.

01:16:06:22 - 01:16:09:00
Tal Wanish
you can place a piece literally anywhere you want.

01:16:09:02 - 01:16:10:19
Tal Wanish
But nobody wants to bring an extra five.

01:16:10:22 - 01:16:11:04
Tal Wanish
That's

01:16:15:06 - 01:16:16:21
Tal Wanish
I'm totally cool with people.

01:16:16:21 - 01:16:18:03
Tal Wanish
Adding bolts to routes and things like.

01:16:18:03 - 01:16:29:04
Tal Wanish
That. I think in general there's not a perfect way to handle things. It really bums me out when a community or when an FAA gives a blessing to something the community is desiring.

01:16:29:04 - 01:16:36:21
Tal Wanish
And there are some bad actors who are threatening that, like Snake Dike is the obvious what I'm talking about here, with that face being like.

01:16:36:21 - 01:16:39:07
Tal Wanish
Yeah, I would love to see like 2 or 3 bolts.

01:16:39:07 - 01:16:46:01
Tal Wanish
Per pitch or something like that. And you know, there are diehards out there who will go chop it, even if the for themselves put up.

01:16:46:03 - 01:16:46:17
Tal Wanish
And that's really.

01:16:46:17 - 01:16:49:03
Tal Wanish
Frustrating to see. Like I think.

01:16:49:05 - 01:16:53:04
Tal Wanish
You know, for blessings. Great. I don't think like the whole FA has ownership of the.

01:16:53:04 - 01:16:54:11
Tal Wanish
Rock is necessarily.

01:16:54:11 - 01:16:59:21
Tal Wanish
Always the best method for managing these. But I don't know what the alternative is.

01:16:59:24 - 01:17:00:06
Tal Wanish
Because.

01:17:00:06 - 01:17:05:24
Tal Wanish
You're never going to reach consensus. And, there is like, there's always going to be the.

01:17:05:24 - 01:17:07:27
Tal Wanish
Vocal minority, right? Like, if I think.

01:17:07:27 - 01:17:09:02
Tal Wanish
A root is great.

01:17:09:04 - 01:17:11:08
Tal Wanish
I'm not going to leave a comment being like, I.

01:17:11:08 - 01:17:12:22
Tal Wanish
Wouldn't change a bolt, but if I.

01:17:12:22 - 01:17:15:12
Tal Wanish
Think it's too run out, I would leave a comment saying I should add

01:17:15:15 - 01:17:19:15
Kyle
Yeah. The loudest voice isn't always the, the largest.

01:17:19:18 - 01:17:20:21
Kyle
Yeah.

01:17:20:21 - 01:17:29:06
Tal Wanish
like, I just think it constantly needs to be a conversation about what, like if safety is a reason, like what is safe. And that's always.

01:17:29:06 - 01:17:35:13
Tal Wanish
Hard too, because like what is safe, right. Like I could I can take a six inch fall. Like I had a friend who took a six inch fall.

01:17:35:15 - 01:17:41:02
Tal Wanish
Like literally like took out a bolt and his foot just went into a, like a seam feature a little bit weirdly towards

01:17:43:10 - 01:17:46:12
Kyle
Geez.

01:17:46:12 - 01:17:49:11
Tal Wanish
he took on a bolt like that wasn't even a fall. So what, like what is the.

01:17:49:11 - 01:17:50:09
Tal Wanish
Level of safety there?

01:17:50:09 - 01:18:02:21
Tal Wanish
And that level of risk and the level of risk will change with time. So I think it's important to be flexible. I think it's important to hear like voices of all generations. And then just like, especially if it's not like a.

01:18:02:21 - 01:18:03:22
Tal Wanish
Historically significant.

01:18:03:22 - 01:18:06:00
Tal Wanish
Climb, whatever. Like.

01:18:06:10 - 01:18:11:08
Kyle
Yeah. It's like someone goes and tries to, rebuild the backer you're in. It's like

01:18:11:08 - 01:18:13:29
Tal Wanish
I think it's important to recognize like all styles.

01:18:13:29 - 01:18:15:07
Tal Wanish
Of climbs are valid.

01:18:15:07 - 01:18:18:27
Tal Wanish
So like just because something's run out doesn't mean that's invalid.

01:18:18:27 - 01:18:21:29
Tal Wanish
Right. We should still have some run out climbs.

01:18:22:02 - 01:18:29:15
Tal Wanish
But I also don't think everything has to be in that, especially if DFA is someone who like, especially.

01:18:29:15 - 01:18:31:19
Tal Wanish
If they're still around. Just ask them.

01:18:32:02 - 01:18:35:06
Kyle
Or if the fall is inherently dangerous.

01:18:35:14 - 01:18:37:13
Tal Wanish
Yeah. Or if it's just done bad.

01:18:37:13 - 01:18:58:06
Kyle
Yeah. What about, like, routes that are just just dangerous in nature, like the it's run out in a bad spot where all you would need is a single bolt to make the root safe, like, because, like in routes like the backer you're in, it's like, yeah, it's run out, but if you fall, it's just a huge, giant fucking man making whip into free space.

01:18:58:08 - 01:19:13:02
Kyle
Whereas like certain routes, it's like, yeah, it's run out 30ft. And if I whip, I'm going to fly over the edge of this roof and maybe core shot my rope and I can't get back up on the wall. Like, it's like situations like that where you start to question, the ethics of it all.

01:19:13:02 - 01:19:19:21
Tal Wanish
Again, I think there's, like, there's something for everyone, right? Like, I don't think we remove all of those, but. Yeah, like, talked talk to DFA if.

01:19:19:21 - 01:19:20:23
Tal Wanish
They're still around and see.

01:19:20:23 - 01:19:22:26
Tal Wanish
And if not, look at the ethics.

01:19:22:26 - 01:19:25:08
Tal Wanish
Of the area. Look how things are changing in the area.

01:19:25:11 - 01:19:27:18
Tal Wanish
Maybe again make like a community judgment.

01:19:27:18 - 01:19:30:21
Tal Wanish
Call it. I don't think consensus is real, but like maybe pull some of the.

01:19:30:21 - 01:19:37:14
Tal Wanish
Active developers and see what the situation is there. Sometimes it's good to be like, all right, well, we still want a couple.

01:19:37:16 - 01:19:37:27
Tal Wanish
Scary

01:19:38:24 - 01:19:41:06
Kyle
Test pieces. Yeah.

01:19:41:06 - 01:19:43:19
Tal Wanish
are good to have.

01:19:43:21 - 01:19:47:01
Tal Wanish
But I do one thing I do think people should.

01:19:47:03 - 01:19:48:09
Tal Wanish
This is another hot topic.

01:19:48:09 - 01:19:49:26
Tal Wanish
That I do think people should just.

01:19:49:26 - 01:19:52:28
Tal Wanish
Like start doing is routes that are equipped.

01:19:53:00 - 01:19:54:03
Tal Wanish
Bad.

01:19:54:06 - 01:19:55:19
Tal Wanish
Just when you're bolting.

01:19:55:21 - 01:19:56:17
Tal Wanish
Just move the bolt.

01:19:56:19 - 01:20:01:03
Tal Wanish
Like if you're like, hey, there's a hands like this person with six foot three and they.

01:20:01:03 - 01:20:10:16
Tal Wanish
Put the ball to their max reach from this huge ledge and the vast majority of the climbing population is risking, like, breaking their ankles, getting to this bolt where if you're tall enough, you don't have to.

01:20:10:21 - 01:20:11:14
Tal Wanish
Like, yeah, just move.

01:20:11:14 - 01:20:12:26
Tal Wanish
That ball down a couple of inches.

01:20:12:28 - 01:20:15:15
Tal Wanish
Things like that. Like just there's some things that you should just.

01:20:15:15 - 01:20:16:16
Tal Wanish
Take upon yourself and.

01:20:16:16 - 01:20:18:05
Tal Wanish
Just do and don't.

01:20:18:05 - 01:20:18:19
Tal Wanish
Make a

01:20:21:06 - 01:20:21:28
Kyle
Just do it.

01:20:21:28 - 01:20:23:28
Kyle
And just. Yeah.

01:20:23:28 - 01:20:25:03
Tal Wanish
willing to put in the effort to re.

01:20:25:03 - 01:20:26:21
Tal Wanish
Bolt a route, like scrub.

01:20:26:21 - 01:20:28:18
Tal Wanish
A route, reinvigorate a route like.

01:20:28:18 - 01:20:32:00
Tal Wanish
You get a little bit of a say in like this was like.

01:20:32:00 - 01:20:32:28
Tal Wanish
That was another big reason I.

01:20:32:28 - 01:20:39:26
Tal Wanish
Got into development as I was rebuilding routes. And I was like, I hate that. I like our process is to go whole for whole here because this isn't such a stupid place.

01:20:39:26 - 01:20:41:14
Tal Wanish
Like this should be moved.

01:20:41:14 - 01:20:42:09
Tal Wanish
Six inches.

01:20:42:12 - 01:20:43:01
Tal Wanish
We recently.

01:20:43:01 - 01:20:44:08
Tal Wanish
Revolted a.

01:20:44:10 - 01:20:49:19
Tal Wanish
A 511 and Clear Creek that everybody like. The bolt is like four feet hard.

01:20:49:19 - 01:20:53:26
Tal Wanish
Off of the bolt line for no reason. And everybody wants to move the bolt over and.

01:20:53:26 - 01:20:56:08
Tal Wanish
They're like, why don't you ask for? And it was like, well, our.

01:20:56:10 - 01:20:58:11
Tal Wanish
Our process is just to go hole for hole. And I was like.

01:20:58:13 - 01:21:01:22
Tal Wanish
We're already we're already doing this. Like just asking for let's move the bolt.

01:21:01:22 - 01:21:04:11
Tal Wanish
I'm sorry. That's our expectation. I was like.

01:21:04:13 - 01:21:08:06
Tal Wanish
So what now I'm going to have to come back once I get for approval and chop.

01:21:08:06 - 01:21:09:24
Tal Wanish
The bolt that we just.

01:21:09:26 - 01:21:14:24
Tal Wanish
Placed and put it in a new. But like, that feels so stupid. So, so yeah, just just like clean tech.

01:21:14:25 - 01:21:17:25
Tal Wanish
Leave everything better than you found it.

01:21:18:08 - 01:21:22:26
Kyle
I guess it's subjective, though, because some people might think one way versus the other.

01:21:22:26 - 01:21:24:05
Kyle
It's tough.

01:21:24:05 - 01:21:25:07
Tal Wanish
never going to please everyone.

01:21:25:07 - 01:21:26:01
Tal Wanish
It's like the biggest thing you.

01:21:26:01 - 01:21:26:29
Tal Wanish
Learn about developer.

01:21:26:29 - 01:21:34:04
Tal Wanish
You never going to make everyone happy. So it kind of goes back to like, as long as you're acting in good faith, that's all anybody can ask from you. And that's

01:21:34:18 - 01:21:43:27
Kyle
Have a have a reason for it. That's not me like mainly egotistical and it's more for the community for the better of the root as a whole for everybody's experience.

01:21:43:27 - 01:21:45:25
Tal Wanish
often like the oh, I'm hard and.

01:21:45:25 - 01:21:48:20
Tal Wanish
Whatever. I think there's the you also have to be.

01:21:48:20 - 01:21:52:15
Tal Wanish
Cognizant of the ego in the opposite way of like, well, if I can't do it, nobody can.

01:21:52:17 - 01:21:53:11
Tal Wanish
And it's like, you have to be.

01:21:53:11 - 01:21:55:03
Tal Wanish
Cautious of that too, of being like, oh, it's.

01:21:55:03 - 01:21:57:01
Tal Wanish
Just because you're scared or just because you don't.

01:21:57:01 - 01:21:59:23
Tal Wanish
Think this is safe doesn't mean someone else

01:22:00:03 - 01:22:07:21
Kyle
Would be. Yeah. Yeah.

01:22:08:06 - 01:22:33:16
Kyle
What do you think people would say? Like when someone climbs your routes, maybe they've done a large majority of your routes. Like, do you find that they would think there's some sort of characteristic about you? Like, would they be able to learn something about you based off of climbing your specific routes? Do they speak to your character in a way?

01:22:33:16 - 01:22:33:27
Tal Wanish
hands.

01:22:33:28 - 01:22:43:05
Tal Wanish
So my big issue I always pull into one of my routes. I'm like, so clean the feet. Yeah. I mean, I think I don't know how I would put it into words, but I think you'd pretty quickly learn.

01:22:43:05 - 01:22:43:29
Tal Wanish
Like what type of.

01:22:43:29 - 01:22:45:28
Tal Wanish
Climbing I enjoy.

01:22:45:28 - 01:22:52:16
Tal Wanish
Because you'd see probably a common trend in like technical vs climbing at like the slightly off vertical in either direction.

01:22:52:19 - 01:22:55:12
Tal Wanish
Range. You probably see, like when I.

01:22:55:12 - 01:23:01:09
Tal Wanish
Get scared or when I think other people are going to get scared, there's a lot of times I've added a bolt that I'm like, other people are like, this is mellow.

01:23:01:10 - 01:23:02:29
Tal Wanish
I'm like, well, I wanted it. They're

01:23:04:06 - 01:23:04:29
Kyle
Yeah.

01:23:04:29 - 01:23:14:18
Tal Wanish
Yeah. I mean, I don't know that. So from talking to people who've come out to Wonderland, I think people definitely see like.

01:23:14:18 - 01:23:15:21
Tal Wanish
A lot of the routes and enjoy.

01:23:15:21 - 01:23:15:26
Tal Wanish
Them.

01:23:15:26 - 01:23:21:26
Tal Wanish
But the overwhelming response I've gotten is like, I can see you in this area. Like I have.

01:23:21:26 - 01:23:22:10
Tal Wanish
Bone.

01:23:22:10 - 01:23:24:27
Tal Wanish
Cairns hanging from all the trees and like.

01:23:25:00 - 01:23:26:20
Tal Wanish
You know, random like.

01:23:26:23 - 01:23:27:25
Tal Wanish
Like bone stuck out.

01:23:27:26 - 01:23:29:12
Tal Wanish
We actually went and wood.

01:23:29:12 - 01:23:36:16
Tal Wanish
Burned or they used, like a soldering iron and burned like labels for the crag turn off so that people would stop creating social trails, getting lost down there.

01:23:36:16 - 01:23:38:20
Tal Wanish
And, like things like.

01:23:38:20 - 01:23:45:04
Tal Wanish
That. And it was like, I can see how much of yourself is in here, like where you're interested. You know, some of the trails don't take the most direct path. They take like a.

01:23:45:04 - 01:23:46:16
Tal Wanish
Little bit more scenic.

01:23:46:19 - 01:23:53:29
Tal Wanish
And less steep path, or, you know, they try and tie into existing game trails and things like that. And.

01:23:54:02 - 01:23:55:21
Tal Wanish
The big thing I think people.

01:23:55:21 - 01:23:58:16
Tal Wanish
Take away is that I am an.

01:23:58:16 - 01:24:00:07
Tal Wanish
Equal opportunity developer.

01:24:00:07 - 01:24:06:20
Tal Wanish
Where it's like, I'm going to bowl to five five the same way I would bowl to 512, and things like that. And that's.

01:24:06:23 - 01:24:07:13
Tal Wanish
The most is like.

01:24:07:13 - 01:24:19:01
Tal Wanish
I want this to be a place where you don't feel like there's a barrier to entry at like a certain level. You don't feel like you have to be a 511 climber to come. Enjoy the five nines and five tens.

01:24:19:03 - 01:24:20:21
Tal Wanish
You can you can be.

01:24:20:24 - 01:24:26:02
Tal Wanish
Like, I want it to be somewhere where anywhere can come and love it and enjoy it and things like that.

01:24:26:02 - 01:24:37:08
Tal Wanish
And so I think that's the thing people take away the most. But from roots, maybe hopefully people see like the rhythm. I think that's the biggest thing I hope people take away is if there's ever a question of.

01:24:37:08 - 01:24:47:25
Tal Wanish
Like, why the bolts go in a certain direction, like they climb it and understand it. But I definitely have some misses. Definitely climb some of my routes and look for if I'm going to, I'm going to come back and revisit this

01:24:49:24 - 01:25:15:21
Kyle
It is interesting how, at least from what I've learned, like interviewing people, is that your routes directly, like, are a mirror to who you were at the time that you were developing that route. And, like, you know, some people will climb a route and be like, Tor was going through some shit, you know, like, what the hell was happening in life on this route, you know, like,

01:25:15:21 - 01:25:17:22
Tal Wanish
And, both directions have also been in one,

01:25:22:16 - 01:25:23:17
Tal Wanish
I'm typically pretty good about.

01:25:23:17 - 01:25:25:16
Tal Wanish
Going and altering my routes if I.

01:25:25:16 - 01:25:27:03
Tal Wanish
Feel like it. So just this past.

01:25:27:03 - 01:25:27:14
Tal Wanish
Weekend.

01:25:27:14 - 01:25:28:15
Tal Wanish
Before we went up to.

01:25:28:15 - 01:25:30:11
Tal Wanish
Shiprock, I went and.

01:25:30:14 - 01:25:31:01
Tal Wanish
Reworked the.

01:25:31:01 - 01:25:32:02
Tal Wanish
Bolts on two different routes.

01:25:32:02 - 01:25:33:00
Tal Wanish
One of them, I completely.

01:25:33:00 - 01:25:38:22
Tal Wanish
Rerouted the route out of the separate anchor and everything. The other one, I just split one bolt into two.

01:25:38:25 - 01:25:40:19
Tal Wanish
And so I'm, I'm like.

01:25:40:19 - 01:25:47:06
Tal Wanish
I've no, I've learned how to patch stuff pretty well from rebuilding, so I have no qualms about moving things around if.

01:25:47:06 - 01:25:48:20
Tal Wanish
I think or if somebody lets me.

01:25:48:20 - 01:25:51:22
Tal Wanish
Know that it's going to enhance the experience.

01:25:51:22 - 01:25:54:23
Kyle
Nice. Well. Cool, man.

01:25:54:26 - 01:26:16:21
Kyle
Yeah, I mean, I, I appreciate your time, and I think, you know, we're pushing three hours here at this point, and, I, I've enjoyed every moment of it. It's really cool to kind of come full circle here and to have, like, our, our first interaction be, you know, our discussion on On Mountain project or sorry, on Instagram and, like run into your brother and to come here.

01:26:16:21 - 01:26:26:03
Kyle
It's just a small world, man. And, I really respect everything you're doing out here in Colorado. And, it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. So it's been cool to learn everything you're doing.

01:26:26:03 - 01:26:31:20
Tal Wanish
Appreciate you. Kyle, this is. This is a blast. I'll hit you up whenever I'm in Vegas again. Dude, feel free to do the same. Colorado, if.

01:26:31:20 - 01:26:32:15
Tal Wanish
You want to come out and do some.

01:26:32:15 - 01:26:35:15
Tal Wanish
Development work, I've got. I got plenty of routes. It's your name on them.

01:26:35:28 - 01:26:53:02
Kyle
For sure. Man, I appreciate that. Yeah. Colorado. I spent, like, a year in Aspen, like, as a budding climber and didn't make a lot of trips to the Front Range or anything. So, Yeah, I got, I got a lot of work to do, but I'm definitely going to be here in Vegas. So if you're out here for Red Rock, I'll, I'll be ready to rope up.

01:26:53:02 - 01:26:53:25
Tal Wanish
out to Vegas for sure.

01:26:53:25 - 01:26:54:22
Tal Wanish
Yeah, I will cosign.

01:26:54:22 - 01:27:07:03
Tal Wanish
The South Platte is basically Colorado's Tahoe. It's just 500mi² of an obscene amount of rock. Some of it's world class, some of it's dogshit. It's it's a really cool spot. I love it, but.

01:27:07:09 - 01:27:11:27
Tal Wanish
Yeah, there's some fun stuff out here. I'll hit you up for sure in Vegas. I did want to say just separately.

01:27:11:29 - 01:27:13:20
Tal Wanish
Not to suck up or anything, but

01:27:13:20 - 01:27:14:12
Tal Wanish
the more I've listened.

01:27:14:12 - 01:27:17:07
Tal Wanish
To podcasts like you like Climbing Majority and.

01:27:17:07 - 01:27:20:10
Tal Wanish
First Ascent, or the only two climbing podcasts I'll recommend to anybody,

01:27:20:20 - 01:27:21:03
Kyle
Hell yeah.

01:27:21:03 - 01:27:21:29
Kyle
Man.

01:27:21:29 - 01:27:23:25
Tal Wanish
talking to Tanner about it. Tanner's like.

01:27:24:02 - 01:27:25:06
Tal Wanish
Tanner and Mike are both super.

01:27:25:06 - 01:27:31:27
Tal Wanish
Effusive about you as an interviewer. And I've just been like, yeah, this finally, somebody who doesn't love the smell of their own farts,

01:27:34:28 - 01:27:36:09
Tal Wanish
So I've really appreciated.

01:27:36:13 - 01:27:38:16
Kyle
Thanks, man.

01:27:38:19 - 01:27:41:28
Kyle
Hell, yeah.

01:27:42:10 - 01:28:00:12
Kyle
Cool. Now, I really appreciate that, man. Yeah. It's been, It's been an interesting journey, and, yeah, I just, I honestly, the more I get to talk to these people and everybody that have are just accomplishing so much and, and are generally like, kind of like shying away from the limelight aren't, like you said to their own horn.

01:28:00:12 - 01:28:11:26
Kyle
And it goes from the guest's perspective to like that was the whole point of this podcast is to, like, kind of steer the conversation in another direction. And I think, yeah, it's cool to hear that. It goes both ways. So.

01:28:11:26 - 01:28:12:10
Tal Wanish
stuff that I.

01:28:12:10 - 01:28:18:11
Tal Wanish
Talk about in climbing, I've never heard anybody say before or never been able to engage people. And I listen to some of your podcast episodes. I'm like, they're.

01:28:18:11 - 01:28:21:20
Tal Wanish
Saying it all. Like I just listened to the one with the.

01:28:21:23 - 01:28:22:29
Tal Wanish
Forgot his name. Who developed the

01:28:23:16 - 01:28:41:10
Kyle
Now. No. Yeah. Brendon Bar is here.

01:28:41:12 - 01:28:43:10
Kyle
Yeah, I like.

01:28:43:10 - 01:28:44:19
Tal Wanish
that is so cool to see.

01:28:44:25 - 01:28:46:20
Tal Wanish
Reflected in these different groups. And so.

01:28:46:20 - 01:28:48:14
Tal Wanish
Yeah, your series with Paul.

01:28:48:14 - 01:28:53:18
Tal Wanish
Ramsden is like in my Mount Rushmore of Mount of Climbing podcast episodes, like.

01:28:53:19 - 01:28:58:20
Tal Wanish
It's Like that, the climbing goal of Joe and Curiosity, first ascent.

01:28:58:20 - 01:29:01:19
Tal Wanish
With Francis and Zero. I don't know what my fourth is after.

01:29:03:24 - 01:29:12:02
Kyle
Cool, man, I hope to I hope to keep adding to that list, man. As this time goes on.

01:29:12:04 - 01:29:13:29
Kyle
Yeah, let's not forget about Tanner.

01:29:15:27 - 01:29:33:26
Kyle
Thanks for listening, everyone. That concludes my conversation with Tell Us. If you liked today's episode, be sure to reach out and let me know. You can reach me via Instagram or email at. The Climbing Majority Podcast at gmail.com. Be sure to stay tuned for our next episode where I sit down with Joshua Reineke. I'll see you all next week.