98 | Beyond Chasing Grades w/ Tal Wanish Part 1

Today, I sit down with Tal Wanish—rock climber, mentor, prominent route developer in Colorado’s Front Range, and brother of our previous guest, Tanner Wanish. But Tal’s not just a rogue route developer. He’s a deeply involved member of his local climbing community—someone who chooses to play by the rules in order to help foster sustainable growth for future generations.

He’s replaced over 600 bolts as an instructor with the Boulder Climbing Community, and today he puts most of his effort into the Pikes Peak Climbers Alliance. There, he serves on the South Platte committee, helps organize clean-ups and fundraisers, and works directly with landowners to ensure new climbing development is legal and sustainable.

While Tal is a thriving member of his community today…that wasn’t always the case. Plagued by imposter syndrome and his own crushing expectations to perform as a climber, he found himself quite alone in the world of climbing struggling to find partners and mentors.

Everything changed when Tal shifted his focus—from numbers to impact. When he discovered route development and community involvement, climbing took on a new meaning. Since then, he’s helped establish over 160 routes in just the last four years and over a vertical mile of new climbs in just the last 12 months. While the grades no longer define him, he’s also recently broken into the 5.13 range—on his own terms.

I really enjoyed this conversation with Tal. He loves climbing, but just as much—he loves sharing climbing with others. And there’s something truly special in that.

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Resources

Tal's IG

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 10:54 Climbing Access & Climbing Communities
• 42:00 Stewardship
• 51:00 A Past Without Partners

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:24
Kyle
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.

00:00:09:26 - 00:00:14:17
Kyle
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.

00:00:15:26 - 00:00:44:24
Kyle
Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast, everyone. After spending the last two weeks in Peru hiking over 33 miles to some of the most stunning alpine lakes I've ever seen, and proposing to Hannah, she said yes, I've landed back in the States and immediately plug back into my 9 to 5. Let's just say it's been a whirlwind. But if I'm honest with you, I could not wait to carve out the time to jump back into this project and bring you another episode from the majority.

00:00:44:27 - 00:01:01:03
Kyle
We've seen a good amount of growth recently, so if you're new here, welcome! The show is more than just a podcast. It's a community. So don't hesitate to reach out. I'd be stoked to hear from you. Before we dive in, I do have one quick favor to ask everyone right now, and we've got way more listeners than we do ratings or reviews.

00:01:01:05 - 00:01:31:19
Kyle
So if you've been enjoying the show and haven't gotten around to it, please take a moment to give the podcast a five star rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And if you're on Apple Podcasts, you have the ability to leave a written review. These simple gestures significantly help the show. All right, enough housekeeping. Let's get into it. Today I sit down with one ish rock climber mentor, prominent route developer in the Colorado Front Range, and brother of our previous guest, Tanner one inch but tall, is not just a rogue route developer.

00:01:31:22 - 00:01:59:11
Kyle
He's a deeply involved member of his local climbing community. Someone who chooses to play by the rules in order to help foster sustainable growth for future generations. He's replaced over 600 bolts as an instructor with the Boulder climbing community, and today he puts most of his efforts into the Pikes Peak Climbers Alliance. There he serves on the South Platte Committee, helps organize cleanups and fundraisers, and works directly with landowners to ensure new climbing development is legal and sustainable.

00:01:59:13 - 00:02:24:11
Kyle
While Towle is a thriving member of his community today. That wasn't always the case. Plagued by imposter syndrome and his own crushing expectations to perform as a climber, he found himself quite alone in the world of climbing. Struggling to find partners and mentors, everything changed when he shifted his focus from numbers to impact. When he discovered root development and community involvement, climbing took on a new meaning.

00:02:24:14 - 00:02:44:19
Kyle
Since then, he's helped establish over 160 routes just in the last four years and over a vertical mile of new terrain in just the last 12 months. While the grades no longer define him. He's also recently broken into the 513 range, all on his own terms. I really enjoyed this conversation with Towle. He loves climbing, but just as much.

00:02:44:19 - 00:02:55:08
Kyle
He loves sharing climbing with others. And there's something truly special in that. So now I bring you part one of my conversation with Talmage.

00:03:07:20 - 00:03:14:10
Kyle
Let's dive into it, man. How did your weekend go? How did the project go? I'm, like, steeped in anticipation to hear about how it went.

00:03:14:10 - 00:03:31:02
Tal Wanish
funny day. This area like Shiprock just doesn't see much traffic. And we we parked, and, I managed to wrangle two people in with me, and we park. And right next to us is one of the guys I wrangled, like, good climbing partners, just out of nowhere. I had no idea who'd be there.

00:03:31:04 - 00:03:36:01
Tal Wanish
And then they were going to go do so. This area of Shiprock is a huge massif. And

00:03:36:05 - 00:03:39:04
Kyle
It looked really cool. Yeah.

00:03:39:04 - 00:03:42:17
Tal Wanish
They're all like 400 plus feet and they just kind of stack on top of

00:03:43:19 - 00:03:45:12
Kyle
All right.

00:03:45:12 - 00:03:49:20
Tal Wanish
area of the Colorado just called the South Platte was doing this a link up.

00:03:49:22 - 00:04:07:11
Tal Wanish
It's A58 called Sweet Cigarillo into a 510 called Anastasia. Right. And I was like a hot shot. 510 Jim Climber. I was like, oh, this will be easy. And I still to this day, I don't think I've ever been shut down on a climb like that before. Like like old school 510 slapping. And I just, like, fell in love with the area.

00:04:07:11 - 00:04:20:21
Tal Wanish
And it just so happened to these guys were going up to do that climb, and they left the parking lot like 20 minutes before us. And we start hiking up and we get most of the way to where we're going, which is a formation with zero routes on it, and they are ten steps in front of

00:04:23:03 - 00:04:26:01
Tal Wanish
like, you are. You are about a thousand vertical feet above where

00:04:29:15 - 00:04:33:07
Kyle
Did you guys have, like, that typical conversation in the car? Like, what route you climbing? You know.

00:04:33:07 - 00:04:43:02
Tal Wanish
what are you guys out here doing? And they had the same question for us and all that. And so we ended up being able to give them some directions to go somewhere and find the second of the lines that were going to do so.

00:04:43:02 - 00:04:58:05
Tal Wanish
Normally you would top out one route and then walk around, scramble another couple hundred feet and do the other line. And so I was like, hey, you can skip your first route, go up here and, they ended up going out. And I heard that they had found rain. And then I heard their voices and I was like, wait, are you guys already back?

00:04:58:05 - 00:05:07:16
Tal Wanish
And I turn around, there's another party coming down again at this formation where there are no other routes going in the like, this is like eight in the morning and they're hiking down from the formation. I'm

00:05:08:05 - 00:05:09:08
Kyle
Whoa!

00:05:09:08 - 00:05:13:07
Tal Wanish
there? Like, nope. We got so lost. We walked all the way around this massif.

00:05:15:13 - 00:05:23:24
Tal Wanish
It's like, what, on Earth? And then two hours later I'm, you know, I'm actively drilling a ball on lead, and I just hear like, oh, you

00:05:26:07 - 00:05:37:01
Tal Wanish
that? They're like, oh, it's Tyson, which is who I took up on the route two weeks ago. And so I turn around, I'm looking for I'm expecting like, it sounds like he is just like 150ft below me, on the ground, 200ft below me, on the ground.

00:05:37:03 - 00:05:50:02
Tal Wanish
And I can't see him. I can't see him. And he's like, oh, look, look by the base of this route. And I look and he is like, I went home and measured on Google Maps. He is 2000ft away. Sounds like he is basically right below me. Sounds like he is my bladder

00:05:50:26 - 00:05:52:17
Kyle
Wow.

00:05:52:17 - 00:06:12:03
Tal Wanish
is a dot in the distance and it is is weird because everybody I know, like nobody runs into people in this formation. Somehow we ran into multiple people. We knew everybody's getting lost. Everybody's getting their ass kicked. It was like the most quintessential experience. And so yeah, we made it to the base of what will be the last pitch.

00:06:12:05 - 00:06:16:12
Tal Wanish
And then an electrical storm rolled in like three hours before it was supposed to. And so had

00:06:16:12 - 00:06:17:10
Kyle
Damn!

00:06:17:10 - 00:06:21:17
Tal Wanish
super stoked to get back and finish it. I mean, that thing is just spectacular.

00:06:21:25 - 00:06:23:19
Kyle
Is it a new high point? You got to.

00:06:23:19 - 00:06:25:12
Tal Wanish
So extended another two pitches.

00:06:25:12 - 00:06:27:03
Kyle
Oh, sick. Okay,

00:06:27:03 - 00:06:29:06
Tal Wanish
pitches now. It'll be six total.

00:06:29:06 - 00:06:35:01
Kyle
the off with that you took a picture of. It sent me. That's the last pitch. That's like the. That's the Widowmaker.

00:06:35:01 - 00:06:50:07
Tal Wanish
I got to the, like in that picture there's like a notch inside the chimney. And so we did a short the last pitch I did was a short traverse pitch into the base of that chimney. And you look up in the chimney and it's just you were like, oh, dear, what?

00:06:51:17 - 00:07:02:02
Kyle
Now we were we were talking about sizes. I had guests like 5 to 7. What do you think. Holy fuck. Okay. So it's massive.

00:07:02:02 - 00:07:09:07
Tal Wanish
pinch down to a six at, like, the very top. But I it's it's probably going to be the chimney pretty much the whole way.

00:07:09:12 - 00:07:16:11
Kyle
Wow. And so at that point Big Bro's aren't going to work. The giant valley giants aren't going to work. And so while you're bolting.

00:07:16:11 - 00:07:35:27
Tal Wanish
I, you know, I, I think it's important to I want this route to be accessible. I want it to be an adventure climb, but I don't want it to be gate kept behind, like $800, a specialized gear that people bought a mountain project for sale post. And so, I I'll, I'll have bolts in there and anything that's not like reasonable to expect parties to have between themselves.

00:07:35:29 - 00:07:48:29
Tal Wanish
I think if it has an extended section in like the 7 to 8 range, I'll probably add a bolt every 15 ish feet where it's like, hey, if you have gear, you can really sell this up. Otherwise. Like you can relatively safely leave this

00:07:49:20 - 00:07:51:00
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.

00:07:51:02 - 00:08:00:14
Kyle
Especially in a chimney I'd say those roots are relatively, generously spaced. It's a relatively secure form of climbing.

00:08:00:14 - 00:08:09:23
Tal Wanish
I mean the whole route is like every, every pitch except for that short traverse has gear and bolts. It goes up. I mean, the crux pitch right now is probably in like the 12 C range. So this

00:08:10:06 - 00:08:11:10
Kyle
Damn.

00:08:11:10 - 00:08:14:13
Tal Wanish
So I'll let people have fun and air it out.

00:08:14:13 - 00:08:31:16
Tal Wanish
But I'm also cognizant of the fact that there will be alternative, easier starts to get to that chimney. And I don't want like I try to keep each pitch for a liter of that grade, as long as it can be accessed by a different method. So I don't want to make a 510 pitch for a 512 climber.

00:08:31:23 - 00:08:41:05
Tal Wanish
If you can climb a 510 to get to it, if that makes sense. So if there's like alternative joining points, I want there to be kind of base for the lowest common denominator for.

00:08:41:23 - 00:08:43:00
Kyle
Got it. Cool, man.

00:08:43:00 - 00:08:49:29
Kyle
Is it too soon to pick a name.

00:08:50:02 - 00:08:53:07
Kyle
What is it called.

00:08:53:09 - 00:08:54:15
Kyle
Cool.

00:08:54:18 - 00:08:56:01
Kyle
Talk to me about why.

00:08:56:01 - 00:09:07:21
Tal Wanish
love with this massif. The first time I went out to it, got inspired by it, stared at this line for hours while contemplating bailing that whole day and, and sort of come back, like, wholesale and put it, put it together.

00:09:07:21 - 00:09:16:22
Tal Wanish
It's literally like the culmination of basically every skill I've developed through developing, through climbing, to add something to this place that just inspired me for years.

00:09:17:06 - 00:09:23:25
Kyle
Cool. Is, the last chimney pitch going to have. Kind of like a namesake of its own. Like on Voyager. You've got, like, the incinerator pitch. Like,

00:09:24:07 - 00:09:25:27
Tal Wanish
going to name every pitch. I

00:09:26:04 - 00:09:29:26
Kyle
Oh, cool.

00:09:29:28 - 00:09:38:09
Kyle
Do you name every pitch that you ever send? Like, ever, ever, ever establish?

00:09:38:12 - 00:09:46:26
Kyle
But, but for this particular climb, you're going to name every pitch. Why? What's so special about this climb?

00:09:46:26 - 00:09:48:23
Tal Wanish
name or every pitch has a name.

00:09:48:25 - 00:09:50:18
Tal Wanish
It's just like a little bit more memorable. And

00:09:50:29 - 00:09:57:16
Kyle
Oh for sure. No.

00:09:57:16 - 00:10:05:10
Tal Wanish
a lot of entries and exits. And so referring to everything. And so just pitch two of into the dream or pitch for this variation or something.

00:10:05:10 - 00:10:09:13
Tal Wanish
You can just say like, hey, you do this pitch into this pitch into this pitch.

00:10:09:22 - 00:10:17:25
Kyle
Cool cool. Sick dude. Well, I'm psyched, to hear about when it all comes together and, Yeah. I can't wait to check it out for sure.

00:10:17:25 - 00:10:36:17
Kyle
I send professional recording equipment to every single guest to ensure that you get top tier audio and video quality, and those costs add up. Right now, the show is also completely ad free and I would love to keep it that way. So if you've been enjoying the Climbing Majority podcast, we'd like to help keep this podcast ad free and want to help me cover shipping costs.

00:10:36:21 - 00:10:54:08
Kyle
Consider joining our Patreon for as little as $5 a month. You can help support the show and you'll get access to exclusive episodes. You can find the link in our show notes or head to Patreon.com slash the climbing Majority podcast. That's Patreon.com slash the Climbing Majority podcast.

00:10:54:08 - 00:11:06:24
Kyle
On this topic of kind of first ascents and bolting, I really think it's really topical to, talk about the explorer and the park tech park acts and kind of how that's been, kind of playing out.

00:11:06:24 - 00:11:24:08
Kyle
We've had a lot of these different communities being affected by it, and obviously it's very much related to wilderness areas. So, in these areas, maybe talk about this specific area. Is that affected by explore and park tech? Isn't it wilderness areas like are there any areas, that you've been establishing that have been affected by this legislation?

00:11:24:08 - 00:11:49:12
Tal Wanish
understanding of this legislation is that it effectively, allows for bolts as fixed, pieces of or like a, human installation in wilderness areas. And it enables or rather mandates that land managers need to come up with a bolting policy or a policy for climbing management amongst themselves. This area is in USFS land.

00:11:49:12 - 00:12:14:19
Tal Wanish
So Forest Service land, historically, there's no restrictions on bolting there. However, it is a stone's throw away from one of the biggest wilderness areas in Colorado, which is Lost Creek Wilderness. This is the trailhead for where we're going. Is a mile from the trailhead to enter Lost Creek Wilderness. And Lost Creek Wilderness is kind of the epicenter of wilderness climbing in the South Platte region of Colorado, which is where I do most of my climbing.

00:12:14:21 - 00:12:36:20
Tal Wanish
So my area is not affected by it, but it's something that we're talking about pretty frequently. Right. There's been kind of murmurs of, land managers and how they feel about wilderness bolting. Rocky Mountain National Park is a great example. I think a year or two ago, there was some heat, put on climbers by the park due to stashing pads, building landings, things like that.

00:12:36:20 - 00:12:40:23
Tal Wanish
And they just basically said, if you guys keep stashing pads, we'll stop allowing climbing

00:12:42:22 - 00:12:57:29
Kyle
So real quick on that note. This is something that I really am interested in in your communities. I what does stopping climbing look like?

00:12:58:02 - 00:13:00:23
Kyle
No one's ever had an answer for me.

00:13:00:23 - 00:13:11:00
Tal Wanish
I don't think so. I mean, it might come down to, hey, we can find and ticket you. Rocky Mount is pretty good about actually monitoring things. I don't know many folks who have gotten away with kind of, you know, Yosemite.

00:13:11:00 - 00:13:26:07
Tal Wanish
There's the rumors of sleeping under boulders and things like that. Everybody has those stories that does not exist in that capacity in the park. Part of that being because it's so much more accessible to get in and out of the park historically than on the Valley and things like that. It's very close to metro areas.

00:13:26:28 - 00:13:32:12
Kyle
Yeah. It's also like a tiny area where it's very easy to to regulate.

00:13:32:15 - 00:13:37:26
Kyle
Yeah.

00:13:37:29 - 00:13:39:03
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.

00:13:39:06 - 00:13:54:29
Kyle
Now though, the one caveat I want to say, you know, I think we're all rebels by nature as climbers. And I, you know, this is a platform and I don't want to sound like I'm advocating for for us to be like, fuck it. It doesn't matter. They can enforce it. You know, it's not that's not the point of that question.

00:13:55:06 - 00:14:19:03
Kyle
I think that it's extremely important for us to all be talking about this, because we don't want to be butting heads with the local law enforcement, with the government, with the park rangers. Like, we want to be having a copacetic relationship and find a way that works for everybody. But I almost I am also a kind of a rebel, and I also live my life pushing the edges of everything in my life like I always find the edge.

00:14:19:03 - 00:14:35:14
Kyle
Where's the edge? And then I like I've paid dearly for that mentality before it gets cost me injuries. It's cost me, other things. And so that's just part of why I ask. It's it's like, what does that even look like? You know, like, what are what what are we at stake of losing? Like, what is losing climbing look like?

00:14:35:14 - 00:14:40:25
Kyle
So, Yeah, it's it's an interesting, topic to dance around.

00:14:40:25 - 00:14:56:05
Tal Wanish
back to answer that question. So this summer, I got the opportunity to serve as a mentor. And the first of its kind of a development of a new crag here in the Front Range, where we partnered directly with Jefferson County to county I live in. It's just west of Denver, Jefferson County's open space program.

00:14:56:05 - 00:15:15:09
Tal Wanish
So their public land program, as well as Arc'teryx, a few like the AC, the local chapter of the AC, the BC, which is one of our, AES, the local climbing organization, trying to minimize the amount of acronyms I throw out here. And a bunch of affinity groups in, in the area to develop a new crag within the open space.

00:15:15:25 - 00:15:39:23
Tal Wanish
The process of developing a crag with a land manager, while it does have its frustrations because you're working through the bureaucracy involved in government, is such a significantly positive experience where you were able to generate something that is truly for the community at the ground level. You know, there's a lot of talks of putting in permit processes like you see in, Bears Ears for new fixed hardware and things like that.

00:15:39:23 - 00:15:55:29
Tal Wanish
And the frustrations that come with it. When that system works, it is awesome. It is so cool to work through the community like that. And you see it in LDO. They have a fixed charter review board. You see it in the flat irons where not only, you know, one of the things about developing is you want people to climb your routes.

00:15:55:29 - 00:16:16:20
Tal Wanish
You want them to be held to a high standard. You want people to be excited about it. And their review processes are very public, where they basically ingest applications either monthly or quarterly. And then those are all pushed publicly, and they go turn to the public and say, would you want this? And you start drumming up interest and you drum up hands who want to be involved in all of this.

00:16:16:20 - 00:16:25:11
Tal Wanish
And it's such a cool experience to say, like, I'm doing this for the community, and the community is actively pushing in to be involved as well.

00:16:25:11 - 00:16:50:04
Tal Wanish
And so I think that's one kind of unknown, unknown to most people that you would be losing in these stakes. Is like, I mean, once you sour that relationship with a land manager, it takes an enormous amount of time changing of hands and proactive work to make it productive and those productive conversations are what lead to these partnerships, where you can get more done, where you can do things that weren't even considered.

00:16:50:07 - 00:17:16:11
Tal Wanish
Recently, the BCC just cleared a there's a popular dino, I think, at, Flagstaff Mountain outside of Boulder that had like an ankle breaking landing, and they just worked with the local land manager to say, like, hey, can we completely restructure this landing so it's flat and safe for everybody? And that's something that, you know, if that was just like a land manager who's relatively hands off, still probably never would have happened, because that's an enormous amount of work for what is like largely a throw away V3 Dino or something like that.

00:17:16:11 - 00:17:38:13
Tal Wanish
Right. And so to be able to say like, yeah, we have people, we have hands, we got enough people like, we can collaborate and organize people who are actually passionate about this, like that kind of organized work is really difficult to do without a positive relationship with the land manager, and that's ignoring the hey, now you might get fined for climbing or bivvy permits are going to be hard to come by and they're going to be patrolling there.

00:17:38:13 - 00:17:48:23
Tal Wanish
And so now you might get fined for giving, or, you know, they're gonna have Rangers turning people around. And now you might not get to experience these things or I mean, it's I can't imagine they ever have the staffing for it, but they go

00:17:50:19 - 00:17:52:26
Kyle
Yeah.

00:17:52:29 - 00:17:58:01
Kyle
It just turns into a war, and it's just it. It's a net loss for everyone.

00:17:58:01 - 00:18:14:17
Tal Wanish
whether that's a war with land managers or war within your climbing community, with bolting wars. Like that's something that the South Platte region has had, you know, equal to or greater than a level that you saw in Yosemite or Joshua Tree or things like that. Like that's a storied history of chopping bolts here as recently as now.

00:18:14:17 - 00:18:33:28
Tal Wanish
Like, that's still a common thing that happens out here. And so it's just a loss for everyone. And so like creating the infighting with land managers doesn't stop the land managers. It just creates a negative environment. And part of the rebellious thing about climbing that brings people or that is so enjoyable is it does bring together like those birds of the feather, right?

00:18:33:28 - 00:18:51:21
Tal Wanish
It brings together those rebellious folks, the folks who want to be outside, who want to do these things, be off, know the fringe of, of culture. And if everybody's fighting there like it's just another battleground, it's not it's not a safe space for anybody to to enjoy and be able to kind of relinquish some of that pain they feel elsewhere.

00:18:51:21 - 00:19:15:15
Kyle
it's interesting to hear that you have a system that works and you have a kind of like process with a local land manager that is positive. I think in general, at least in my social circles, the experience is been negative and people are afraid and people are fearful. Like, I went to an SNCC meeting recently here in Southern Nevada Climate Coalition.

00:19:15:17 - 00:19:33:25
Kyle
And like everybody there was like a group of 30 people. And everybody was like super scared, super fearful. Like everyone's kind of got their guard up, like trying to figure out what this whole BLM implementation of, of climbing rules are. And like, everyone's ready to set these regulations and like, get on it. But like people are missing the point.

00:19:34:02 - 00:19:42:06
Kyle
So talk to me about why it's working in your area and why you think it might not be working and others.

00:19:42:06 - 00:20:02:07
Tal Wanish
it's important to say that it works sometimes. There are some places where it works. And so one thing that it requires is, you know, part of the reason a partnership works is both people are acting in good faith. And if the regulations are put together simply as a blockade, it's not going to work.

00:20:02:07 - 00:20:38:15
Tal Wanish
Right? There needs to be somebody who's dedicated to it. And so the Flat Irons group works. The the LDO group works because they're very passionate people in those positions who work to review things on time, actually go out there, scout things. A great example is this weekend, the time we're recording this a significant the popular portion of LDO including rewritten, you know the that second most traffic climb probably in America behind the steel crack also and although is being shut down so they can go out and just trundle a bunch of death blocks because they replaced attached tree anchor with a bolted anchor and wanted to remove the death blocks in the way

00:20:38:15 - 00:21:03:28
Tal Wanish
and help facilitate new climbing. Like that's insane for a state park, and for them to be willing to just go out and do that, like peak season on one of the most popular routes in America. But they're willing to do it because they care. This process with Jefferson County open Space went really positively, but what was behind the scenes was probably close to two years of work, of recon, of applying for permits, of getting that process rolling.

00:21:03:28 - 00:21:23:27
Tal Wanish
There was a huge lead time up to it. And so that is probably where there's still some room for growth. A good example is I recently applied for a permit at the top third of a route at a popular area in Denver called North Table Mountain fell off. And the bolts for protecting that part of the climb were in the rock that fell off.

00:21:23:27 - 00:21:40:28
Tal Wanish
And so we went, checked it out, cleaned it up. The new sequence that goes is great. And we are going to just replace those bolts, put in a permit to do so. And it took four months to approve that. And now I mean that area is super sunny and hot. Now it's out of season. Now it's probably going to be another six months before we actually go out there and bolt it because it's so hot.

00:21:41:00 - 00:21:43:06
Tal Wanish
So there are instances where it doesn't work.

00:21:44:26 - 00:21:59:09
Kyle
Well, I mean, I'd say in that situation, it still works like you still got an approval. Yeah. It took a while. Like, like right now in Joshua Tree. The issue is that and I think that maybe that's the difference because like correct me if I'm wrong, but these areas you're talking about seem to be kind of like smaller areas.

00:21:59:13 - 00:22:03:25
Kyle
Like geographically, are they smaller?

00:22:03:27 - 00:22:20:26
Kyle
Yeah, exactly. So I think out in the West, a lot of this wilderness space or these I feel like out here we're mostly dealing with wilderness space and not a lot of kind of like smaller, parceled out private properties. And so, you know, they put out a permit system for Jay Tree, but then there's no federal funding anymore.

00:22:20:26 - 00:22:38:09
Kyle
And so the person whose job it is to like, go over the permits is now gone. And so now the system that in place is broken. And so it's like it seems like this concept of permits and everything works. If it's a smaller community and everybody's on board.

00:22:38:09 - 00:23:10:09
Tal Wanish
Yes. Yeah. Well, you need the resources, right? Like, realistically, you need people to. Well, so you need people to actually go out there and review things like if part of the process is reviewing vegetation, reviewing rockfall hazard reviewing. If this isn't just a pile of chores, you need somebody who will actually do that. A and B you need the right people because there is also like a too many cooks in the kitchen situation that we see at some of the other areas here in the Front Range where one person applies for a permit and there's nine people who want to go check it out and you need something unanimous from all of them.

00:23:10:09 - 00:23:29:11
Tal Wanish
And it's like, that's not how climbing is ever. It works. Like, well, that's not how land management ever works. Why are we doing that? And so there's a balance. And I think we as a climbing community nationally, globally are still trying to figure out exactly what that secret sauce is that makes this work. When it works well, it is so special.

00:23:29:11 - 00:23:49:03
Tal Wanish
And when it doesn't work well, it is really, really frustrating and very discouraging to be around. And so I think we'll see more of it. I think that's going to be the default moving forward. I think like the permit based application system is just going to be something we see more and more of, and hopefully more of them rely on climbers to self moderate like we have historically.

00:23:49:10 - 00:24:07:03
Tal Wanish
You know, we talked about bolting wars earlier. That is something that land managers have largely allowed climbers to self regulate in the past, and things like that. And hopefully they'll continue to do so some of these permit applications, it's just a little bit more out in the open. It helps prevent Bolt Wars.

00:24:11:07 - 00:24:12:11
Kyle
It's like.

00:24:12:14 - 00:24:17:06
Kyle
Anything that's not gone through the system is essentially invalidated.

00:24:17:08 - 00:24:18:02
Kyle
Yeah.

00:24:18:05 - 00:24:39:17
Kyle
Now. So I would imagine most landowners aren't climbers. And so talk to me about how we can approach these landowners as climbers and get them on board. And like because I would imagine some people are just like fuck that. And like why, why would I want you here? I don't want the traffic. I don't want the bolts, I don't want any of it.

00:24:39:19 - 00:24:41:19
Kyle
Get off my property. And so, like

00:24:41:19 - 00:24:54:07
Kyle
in your experience with these areas that are working, why are the landowners on board? And kind of how can we kind of like, copy and paste that into other areas and how we're interacting with them?

00:24:54:07 - 00:25:13:27
Tal Wanish
gaining a lot of popularity right in the Olympics. Now it's seen as like a valid use case more frequently. We talk about legislation with the Explorer Act. Some other legislation pieces are going through different states to allow, for landowners to allow recreational use of their land without accepting liability for those things.

00:25:13:27 - 00:25:19:09
Tal Wanish
So that's now like that's historically been a huge deterrent is we don't want people climbing on our property. We don't want to get

00:25:20:00 - 00:25:22:19
Kyle
To. Yeah.

00:25:22:19 - 00:25:35:29
Tal Wanish
well. So I think awareness of that is big, especially if you're in a state that recently passed that legislature is making sure you can say, hey, you know, I know this might be a concern that no longer needs to be, being good stewards.

00:25:36:03 - 00:26:03:06
Tal Wanish
It's kind of the biggest thing, right? Like, the OHV community, the offroad community here in the Front Range has a lot of partners and land managers because they do a lot of trail days. They do a lot of cleanup days. They're very involved. They pay dues towards these things like the they it's not seen as, elective in a way that joining your AE often is in the, in the climbing space.

00:26:03:08 - 00:26:20:08
Tal Wanish
Right. It's it's easy to be like, well, I'm in a climbing gym, so why do I like I don't want to also pay for an AE or also contribute to the ACA or things like that, versus when you're doing OHV, like you're taxed, but you doing OHV is is the thing. And so you're typically paying dues, doing something towards contributing towards that.

00:26:20:08 - 00:26:21:22
Tal Wanish
And so I think that's a big way we do it is

00:26:21:22 - 00:26:33:15
Tal Wanish
we go and say like hey, we want to do this. There's no liability. You know, we have people who have built trails for 20 years. They think they've mapped out something that could work. What do you think about this? I'd like to walk it with you. How can we maintain access?

00:26:33:15 - 00:26:59:09
Tal Wanish
Like, can we create an easement? Can we work, like, go ahead and fit new areas into the management plan of our local climbing organizations, things like that. Just be proactive. Be, don't don't just do it and ask for permission or ask for forgiveness later. I think we're kind of past that point in climbing where there's like understanding of where new areas are is way too readily available to do the whole ask

00:26:59:24 - 00:27:03:02
Kyle
I don't know. Yeah.

00:27:03:02 - 00:27:14:22
Tal Wanish
just it's seen like you're acting in bad faith because you probably are like, you probably know you're trespassing. You probably know you shouldn't be doing what you're doing. Like, that ignorance side of it isn't really there in the same way that it once was.

00:27:14:22 - 00:27:20:13
Tal Wanish
And so just going in and being, okay, I just want to do this and being willing to say no because there's so much.

00:27:20:13 - 00:27:26:26
Tal Wanish
Right? At least, I mean, I'm spoiled. I'm in Colorado. There's so much rock that like, a no is like, shucks, all right, I'll walk

00:27:29:15 - 00:27:30:29
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:27:31:01 - 00:27:52:04
Kyle
Yeah. I thought it was interesting. You talked about too. Like how, you know, it takes a lot of, us as climbers to be unified. And I think the the biggest plague we have as a community is when we start bickering and fighting amongst ourselves. I think that that's when, like, people who are kind of considering climbing and considering these rules, like, oh, do I want people to be climbing on my land?

00:27:52:04 - 00:28:15:27
Kyle
Like, if we can't even be on the same page as, as climbers and we can't, we're visibly to the public, you know, bickering amongst ourselves and battling. And there's these rumors of Bolt Wars. That's I mean, it's not going to do anything for us. So, you know, and I think those issues that we have amongst ourselves are built around ethics and ethics.

00:28:15:27 - 00:28:51:27
Kyle
And like some people, like, I only want gluons or, you know, I don't think we should be replacing the bolts on this rock because it's a test piece and like, yeah, it's old and it's dangerous, but that's what it's there for. So like, how do you and your community handle these internal conflicts and create a unified front for these kind of land owners and the external public to to see that that kind of unified front.

00:28:52:00 - 00:29:09:04
Kyle
Reddit mountain project. It's all toxic as fuck. Yeah. It's terrible.

00:29:09:06 - 00:29:11:07
Kyle
It's all volunteer work too, isn't it?

00:29:11:09 - 00:29:12:10
Kyle
Yeah.

00:29:12:10 - 00:29:28:05
Tal Wanish
time. It's a lot of mental work as well, following up with people, all of that. And so historically, how this is looked is 1 or 2 people take like lead of that. And it's kind of like a hey, I'm the leader. So I get to dictate a little bit of what this is going to look like.

00:29:28:05 - 00:29:42:11
Tal Wanish
Neither you're in or you're out, like you're going to play by these rules or you're not, you know, here in Colorado, we have so many options for rock and things like that. It kind of goes back to the this doesn't look like the way I want it to look. So I'm going to go find a place of my own to play, which is great.

00:29:42:11 - 00:29:52:02
Tal Wanish
I think having you know, it's funny, we, we talk a lot about in that mentorship program what bolting should look like and things like that. And one of the things we really preach is like

00:29:52:02 - 00:29:58:28
Tal Wanish
climbing looks better when there's a diversity in thought, when people aren't, don't want the exact same thing out of the sport that I do.

00:29:59:01 - 00:30:16:21
Tal Wanish
Right. Like somebody going to look at a piece of rock differently and equip it differently. Somebody like having run out roots is great. Having super tightly bolted routes is great. Having moderates, having hard climbs like all of these, like there is somebody who will want that same thing that you do. And so having that diversity is really important.

00:30:16:21 - 00:30:16:28
Tal Wanish
And

00:30:16:28 - 00:30:31:29
Tal Wanish
so it's one of those things where when you're doing these projects, you want to make sure there's a level of that diversity in there. But you also don't want to create a crag where somebody walks up and there's 70% hyper tightly bolted routes, and then they get on something else and all the sudden they're doing 30ft run and it's like, what the hell?

00:30:32:01 - 00:30:53:04
Tal Wanish
Right? Like at the formation level, I personally believe that there should be like a level of identity there so that I can use my guidebook to get there and then dump it and just climb what looks interesting. And so there is some level of like, hey, we should minimize variability at like the very local level, but promoting diversity on like the more regional scale is, I think, important.

00:30:55:02 - 00:31:19:11
Kyle
What about like in your, your climbing community areas. It seems like at least here in the SNCC the people involved aren't able to actually go out and do any of the root replacement. I don't like, especially out here because Red Rock is wilderness, like, I don't think they're legally allowed to at this point because with the, with the Parks Act and stuff, it's like all the installation that exists currently can stay.

00:31:19:16 - 00:31:26:02
Kyle
But no, nothing new can be put in at this point. That's that's currently how it stands. Right. With wilderness areas.

00:31:26:02 - 00:31:39:01
Tal Wanish
up to the local. So there is like a if the local Red Rock area says, hey, we don't allow new installations that would override it. But functionally, right now in wilderness, as long as you hand drill, there is no difference. Like at the

00:31:39:23 - 00:31:40:29
Kyle
Okay.

00:31:40:29 - 00:31:46:18
Tal Wanish
But if you have local regulations that are overruling that, then your local, regulations

00:31:47:17 - 00:32:09:22
Kyle
Okay. And I think I also saw something that might have been in the Colorado region or might have been up in, in Utah, but the the I'll just use the. What are they? Local climbing coalitions is that's like the great word for it or local AES. Okay. So the AE up in Salt Lake, they basically turned voting towards the, the community where like what do you think about gluons?

00:32:09:22 - 00:32:26:26
Kyle
What do you think about old bolts on old routes. And it turned into this kind of like take a vote, let the public vote. And then that's how we make a decision. Is that kind of seem like how the AES in your area operate? Is it like a peer review group thing, or is it like a, I'm in charge?

00:32:26:26 - 00:32:29:25
Kyle
This is kind of how I feel like we should do it, and this is what we're going to do.

00:32:29:25 - 00:32:39:09
Tal Wanish
a mix of both. I think there's a bit of. There's definitely, soliciting feedback that happened. But there is certainly a. Well, that feedback is done. We're not going to

00:32:40:29 - 00:32:47:17
Kyle
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah that makes sense. And are you in. How are you involved in your aes.

00:32:47:17 - 00:33:06:02
Tal Wanish
part of so I used to be really active with re bolting with the BK, which is a boulder climbing community who despite the name also mostly covers the Denver climbing area as well. Did a lot of reporting with them was a reporting like mentee and instructor there as well. Probably replace like 6 or 700 bolts when I was with them.

00:33:06:05 - 00:33:26:04
Tal Wanish
But now I've shifted focus a little bit more towards the PCA, which is the Colorado Springs based group. It's the Pikes Peak Climbers Alliance, and on the South Platte Committee there. So they cover the area I climb in most. And so I figured, and they, they kind of had, like a resurgence in the last couple of years.

00:33:26:04 - 00:33:38:01
Tal Wanish
And I wanted to be a part of helping shape the vision for the group going forward. So I'm on the committee there. I'm still very I'm in the inbox of both aes way more than they would like.

00:33:40:17 - 00:33:42:14
Tal Wanish
the time and still trying to be involved however I can.

00:33:42:14 - 00:33:46:17
Tal Wanish
And I'm pretty much just like if anybody asks like, hey, can you do this? I try and make time for it.

00:33:47:02 - 00:33:56:16
Kyle
Yeah. So, are you, like, a decision maker, or are you kind of like the the working man? The one who kind of, like, makes things happen and reports information back to the AES.

00:33:56:16 - 00:34:13:17
Tal Wanish
the working man. I do try and, like, propose new ideas. So, like, propose cleanups. Propose we have, like, a cost share agreement with our local Forest Service, district. And so we have to, enact a few different events, like cleanups or things like that, that were contributing to the overall area to fulfill that.

00:34:13:17 - 00:34:25:14
Tal Wanish
And so I'll propose some different ideas there, or fundraisers or whatever we can do. But mostly I just try and be busy. I'm not the most bureaucratic person to to be involved in some of these things.

00:34:25:27 - 00:34:27:09
Kyle
Yeah. No, I totally understand. I'm the.

00:34:27:09 - 00:34:28:14
Kyle
Same way.

00:34:28:14 - 00:34:29:18
Kyle
Bolting. Ethics.

00:34:29:18 - 00:34:38:06
Kyle
Talk to me about what's good and what's bad. Yeah.

00:34:38:08 - 00:34:46:09
Kyle
Hey, man, I got I got no time. Frame is. Talk to me.

00:34:46:11 - 00:34:49:24
Kyle
Oh, okay.

00:34:49:26 - 00:34:56:01
Kyle
And snippets, social media. A viral post.

00:34:56:01 - 00:35:09:29
Tal Wanish
doing if you are bolting a route ground up, especially in like modern day if you're I, you had two episodes. I forgot who the name is with someone who's gotten more plate doors than, like, any human in

00:35:10:10 - 00:35:12:10
Kyle
Paul ramsden.

00:35:13:12 - 00:35:15:21
Tal Wanish
any any climbing media ever.

00:35:15:23 - 00:35:25:05
Tal Wanish
He talks about, like, bringing the bowl kit and shares your way up to no Adventure. And as a prolific bowler, I 100% agree it's it's largely why I bring it with me.

00:35:25:05 - 00:35:25:29
Tal Wanish


00:35:26:13 - 00:35:36:25
Kyle
He says he says he doesn't bring a bolt kit because it doesn't. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. He. Yeah he was like basically I don't bring bolts because then it doesn't assure your success.

00:35:36:27 - 00:35:40:16
Kyle
Yeah.

00:35:40:18 - 00:35:44:03
Kyle
You agree with his mentality in the opposite reason. Yeah.

00:35:44:05 - 00:35:46:24
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.

00:35:46:24 - 00:35:55:24
Tal Wanish
I think roundup is 100% a tactic, not an ethic. I do think it's, like, very valuable to go ground up on some things. It's just like a matter of this is the most efficient

00:35:55:29 - 00:36:16:19
Kyle
It's so so maybe, maybe a better way to say it is ground up is not an ethic. It's a style a tactic a okay tactic I think sound at least to someone who thinks it's an ethic. A tactic is almost like a jab with a knife in the side. Style has got a little bit more like polish. It's like, yeah, yeah, it's a style.

00:36:16:19 - 00:36:19:20
Kyle
It's a style. Yeah.

00:36:19:20 - 00:36:30:28
Tal Wanish
climbing ethics. So I think when you do development, what's important is understanding why you are doing it. You have to have a why. And whether that why is I just want to climb these routes. I just want to equip routes.

00:36:30:28 - 00:36:51:23
Tal Wanish
I want to do or it's hey, I don't see a lot of people who look or sound like me in the guidebook, and I want better representation out there. Or it's I want to leave a lasting legacy, give something back to the community, whatever. All of that shapes kind of what you want out of climbing, out of development, and helps you make decisions that way.

00:36:51:26 - 00:36:53:07
Tal Wanish
And so,

00:36:53:07 - 00:37:05:24
Tal Wanish
I think ethics really boils down to, are you doing things in good faith? And are you, jeopardizing future access or unfairly putting other climbers at risk?

00:37:05:24 - 00:37:13:09
Tal Wanish
And so, a good example, like run out routes? I don't think you're bad ethics unless you're going top down in runners and then, like, unless you're head pointing something

00:37:15:28 - 00:37:22:16
Tal Wanish
expectation to head point, or you're tripping holds, you're, you know, you're doing things that will jeopardize future access.

00:37:22:16 - 00:37:42:21
Tal Wanish
So whether you go top down, ground up, bolt, it makes climb the trad, whatever. Like I don't care that much. But as long as you are doing it in good faith to what you are trying to get out of development, I think that's. And you're not, you know, jeopardizing access or putting other climbers at risk in an unfair way, then

00:37:42:21 - 00:37:43:27
Kyle


00:37:44:00 - 00:37:53:21
Kyle
Now, how do you feel about root development for yourself versus for other people. Do you feel like it is one or the other or do you feel like it's in the end it's always going to be for somebody else.

00:37:53:21 - 00:38:08:15
Tal Wanish
I do a lot of routes, like for myself, I do. I've done probably 30 or 40% of the routes I do or ground up, and I've pretty much added bolts to every single one of them afterwards. Right. I get the experience I want out of my first ascent, and then on the wrap down I'm adding bolts.

00:38:08:15 - 00:38:29:10
Tal Wanish
I'm giving a good clean, I'm doing whatever because I want somebody to climb it after me. And I don't necessarily want them to have my same experience, because while there's a lot of kudos given to folks doing things ground up with, like modern technology and bolting drills, the secret sauce is that it is really comfortable knowing that you can throw in a bolt whenever you want.

00:38:29:14 - 00:38:42:10
Tal Wanish
Like that, you can just stop. And you know what? I'm a little scared. I'm a throwing a ball right now. And so like a 30ft run out that's elective versus a 30ft run out that you're forced to do, because that's where the bolt is, is two very different experiences.

00:38:43:13 - 00:39:05:29
Kyle
Well, it almost seems like now, like back in the day all these older roots that had run outs. It's like because they didn't have a stance to hand drill a root or a bolt. And so it was like these bold roots were almost forced, like you said. But now with the technology that we have, you're you're almost electing to make it more dangerous because of whatever kind of ego you have for the root.

00:39:05:29 - 00:39:10:08
Kyle
And so there's a difference there. Yeah. It's interesting.

00:39:10:08 - 00:39:14:13
Tal Wanish
I'm running something out like when I'm going ground up, it's because I'm way too scared to stop and

00:39:17:29 - 00:39:19:19
Kyle
Yeah.

00:39:19:19 - 00:39:24:27
Tal Wanish
bolting. Historically, this new traverse that I'm working on is the first time I've drilled off of a piece or

00:39:26:11 - 00:39:27:16
Kyle
Like a hook or something.

00:39:27:17 - 00:39:28:18
Kyle
Yeah.

00:39:28:18 - 00:39:50:06
Tal Wanish
horrifically barely bodyweight camp or whatever, something like that. And so, you know, I don't like I don't really buy into a lot of the storied legend of going ground up. And I found that most folks who enforce what we consider bolting ethics, things like, did you go ground up or, you know, is it run out enough or things like that, or people

00:39:51:13 - 00:39:56:01
Kyle
Is it run out enough. Is that a is that a question.

00:39:56:01 - 00:40:02:10
Tal Wanish
bolt chopping laws here in the plot. Like for sure people would chop your bolts if you had bolts a little bit closer than they'd like or if they

00:40:02:21 - 00:40:03:25
Kyle
Wow.

00:40:03:27 - 00:40:08:15
Kyle
Who the fuck has the time to go out there and do that. That's crazy.

00:40:08:15 - 00:40:12:20
Tal Wanish
longtime mentor, Nathan Brown, anybody who's climbed in North Carolina has heard of him.

00:40:12:20 - 00:40:13:29
Tal Wanish
He's an absolute legend.

00:40:15:04 - 00:40:21:06
Tal Wanish
to climb. I think it's Stone mountain, Georgia, where roots, they either have one, 2 or 3 bolts for

00:40:22:15 - 00:40:25:09
Kyle
Oh my god.

00:40:25:09 - 00:40:30:06
Tal Wanish
a dog tag on the fourth bolt and was like, if you clip this, you're a like, like

00:40:30:15 - 00:40:33:04
Kyle
Wow.

00:40:33:07 - 00:40:34:29
Kyle
Oh.

00:40:35:02 - 00:40:35:13
Kyle
Take it.

00:40:35:13 - 00:40:37:11
Kyle
Off.

00:40:37:14 - 00:40:43:29
Kyle
Wow. That's crazy. Those are some, like staunch ethics. It's interesting how it differs from area. That area.

00:40:43:29 - 00:41:11:11
Kyle
be real for a second. The current blueprint for a successful climbing podcast is simple. Interview the best climbers in the world. Big names mean big followings. Lots of SEO power and a built in audience that helps boost every episode. But this show, this show has never been about that. From the beginning, I have made it my mission to bring you stories from the climbing majority, the climbers who don't live in the limelight, the ones who avoid interviews, quietly put up roots and give back in ways that are rarely recognized.

00:41:11:15 - 00:41:28:04
Kyle
And while that's what makes this show special, it also means we have an uphill battle when it comes to growth. And that is where you come in. If you're psyched about the show, if you've been inspired, entertained, or fired up about an episode. Word of mouth is the single most important way you can help the show. Share an episode with a friend.

00:41:28:08 - 00:41:45:22
Kyle
Play one on a group road trip. Post about the show on social media. Jump onto Reddit threads and Mountain Project forums and share with people what you've been listening to. Be sure to tag the show, tag your favorite guests, and spread the word. And if you want to help even more, I'm currently sending posters to climbing gyms around the country.

00:41:45:26 - 00:41:59:08
Kyle
If you'd like to support one in your climbing gym, be sure to reach out. Email me at the Climbing Majority podcast at gmail.com and I will be sure to send you one. Let's band together and show the climbing community that the climbing majority has a voice.

00:41:59:10 - 00:42:01:20
Kyle
We had talked about stewardship a little bit.

00:42:03:27 - 00:42:32:16
Kyle
I feel like in general, it seems like there's a lack of community involved with stewardship. I'd say there's so many people coming to to the world of climbing, and people are coming out of gyms. I'm a victim of this until I've gotten more involved with this community, with the podcast. It's just it's so easy to just go out, get the guidebook, climb a root, leave, and not really think twice about what went into it or what is going into it to maintain it.

00:42:32:16 - 00:42:43:24
Kyle
So, Talk to me about your kind of experience there with stewardship, and maybe we can talk about some advice on how we can all participate on our day to day.

00:42:43:24 - 00:43:03:18
Tal Wanish
a great question. So I think stewardship I found most often you mentioned how easy it is. I think it's found like buying is found, were buying is required. And so if you're an area with a lot of climbing infrastructure that is catered to you, it is very easy to fall into like that consumer mindset, right?

00:43:03:18 - 00:43:27:04
Tal Wanish
If I go to Planet Granite Gems, I am a customer. They are actively trying to improve my experience. And that becomes an expectation of mine. And so I don't think that this, we talk about stewardship and lack of involvement. I don't think that's happening intentionally. I don't think people are acting in bad faith. I think it's just easy to be conditioned to that when that's the environment that you're most often surrounded with.

00:43:27:04 - 00:43:37:02
Tal Wanish
Right. It's very easy for me to go to the gym after work rather than go to the crag. So I've found that stewardship is really good in those places where climbing access is really

00:43:38:22 - 00:43:40:24
Kyle
That makes sense.

00:43:40:24 - 00:43:48:29
Tal Wanish
Michigan, the upsC, they are awesome. Carolina Climbers Coalition, another awesome group, although there's some incredible climbing the Carolinas.

00:43:48:29 - 00:44:09:18
Tal Wanish
You know, after Hurricane Helen, most of their work and fundraising was done towards improving trails, rebuilding houses, like things like that. They were doing stuff not specific towards climbing, but just what the community need. And so I think stewardship is really important. I think trying to break free of that, that mindset of, hey, this is just all made for me.

00:44:09:18 - 00:44:39:05
Tal Wanish
This is all to my benefit. And trying to figure out like, oh, somebody who is just like me did this, I can do this too. Is is kind of like, what's that? To to get you there, to get you involved. And there's so many different ways to get involved in so many different levels to get involved, whether that's financially sweat equity, just telling people, I mean, a great way to be a good steward for the sport and, and, you know, help people coming back to the sport, having a good time is just be nice of the crag, you know, smile.

00:44:39:06 - 00:44:53:19
Tal Wanish
Don't. As soon as somebody walks up, be like, what are you getting on? Like, don't do that. Like there's there's a lot of things that you can do to improve the sport for everyone. That doesn't look like putting in bolts or breaking rock for trail, or donating hundreds of dollars a month.

00:44:55:24 - 00:45:09:13
Kyle
What about participation with the, AES. Do you feel like that's kind of something we should all be kind of seeking out and seeing how we can participate if we have like an AES in our local area.

00:45:09:13 - 00:45:24:08
Tal Wanish
a lot of ways to get involved. So some of that's just like, hey, if you just want to throw 20 bones at them every month, like, that's awesome, they'll, they'll love that. But if you want to come out to a trail day and, and shake hands and meet the people who are making decisions and give your input, like that's how you see yourself reflected in the community.

00:45:24:10 - 00:45:42:12
Tal Wanish
If they're doing what already reflects you, great. Like throw them some money. And if you feel like their mission doesn't necessarily align with yours, like, great, give them some feedback and see if that can change. See if you can see more of yourself in that community. There's a lot of folks who complain that they don't, contribute to the AES because they're not doing what they had hoped they would do.

00:45:42:12 - 00:45:44:17
Tal Wanish
I was like, are you telling them, like, what

00:45:45:28 - 00:45:48:24
Kyle
Yeah.

00:45:48:24 - 00:45:57:29
Tal Wanish
everything's typically volunteer based. Like if you want more, focus on an area, go volunteer. Say like, hey, I want to do this. Is there anybody else who wants to do this? Can we make a committee here?

00:45:57:29 - 00:46:17:09
Tal Wanish
Can we just have a little focus group here? Can you help me get the word out about this event that I want to put on just to do a clean up at this crag, things like that. Like. Yeah, absolutely. They would and so I think a lot of folks don't recognize that this isn't the climbing gym. You don't have to apply to be involved.

00:46:17:13 - 00:46:33:27
Tal Wanish
You like I don't I don't have to, you know, be given the, the DeWalt to, to put up a route. I don't have to do these. Like I can just go do that. I don't need somebody to tell me that I can do that. Which is such a beautiful thing about the sport, is you can kind of get involved at whatever level you want, and whatever you put it in is,

00:46:35:26 - 00:46:36:04
Kyle
Yeah.

00:46:36:11 - 00:46:51:00
Kyle
Yeah. I think you brought up a couple good points. I think that, I mean, if you don't have the time to go build trail or you don't have the knowledge or time to go replace bolts, established routes. I think financial compensation is something we should all kind of relatively consider. I mean, we pay $10 a month for Spotify.

00:46:51:00 - 00:47:06:00
Kyle
We pay. I'm sure we're going to end up paying $15 a month for a mountain project at some point. You know, like, we have these subscriptions we pay for every day and we go out, you know, in our local club, Meteorology's Water Park, as an example. You know, we are in Red Rock every season, twice at twice a year.

00:47:06:00 - 00:47:25:02
Kyle
We're out there all the time. And yeah, there's people out there maintaining trails, replacing bolts, and, there's a lot of work that goes into that. So if you don't have the time to actually be there and physically participate, I'd say any dollar counts. And I think there's a difference between like, I think right now the access fund is kind of a, blanket.

00:47:25:02 - 00:47:46:11
Kyle
And I don't necessarily mean to like for people who may be, you know, considering donating to the access fund. I don't want to be like, you know, fuck the access fund, donate to your AE. You know, it's like there's there's room for both. But, you know, don't forget about your, your CO2. Like, if you are very involved in your local area, then, maybe an AE is kind of more kind of the would benefit me, make you feel like you're contributing more to your local area.

00:47:46:14 - 00:48:03:07
Kyle
And then also, I think another way we can contribute, at least out here, I've seen is like, take a picture of bad bolts and send them to the people involved in the AES. Like, if we're here in Red Rock at the SNCC, like, take a picture of a bad bolt, send it to the the president of the SNCC and be like, hey, man, I noticed this.

00:48:03:07 - 00:48:24:08
Kyle
Like, just heads up. You know, maybe, maybe this should be replaced. And just information providing information.

00:48:25:21 - 00:48:37:07
Kyle
Yeah. I've heard that pictures are like the biggest thing. Take a picture of it. Nuance.

00:48:37:09 - 00:48:39:11
Kyle
Yeah.

00:48:39:11 - 00:48:48:17
Tal Wanish
so many ways to get involved, right, like financially, but also donate used shoes to like your local city hall that has a climbing wall than a youth program.

00:48:48:23 - 00:49:08:17
Tal Wanish
There are there's the access fund, there's your AE, there's the ACA, there's you know, Kai Lightner has climbing for change, helping get people in underrepresented groups access to the outdoors. There's, you know, gems like Memphis Rocks, like there's so many things that aren't just in your local bubble. That's the climbing scene as a whole that you can contribute to.

00:49:08:20 - 00:49:27:14
Tal Wanish
You know, there's, J. Noah and Lee Henchy, both talked a lot about what makes a local in an area, and it's not somebody who you don't have to live X amount of minutes from your crag or something like that. It's who is the person who shows up on trail days? Who's the person who's helping rebuild, who's the face, whose name you actually know?

00:49:27:14 - 00:49:45:06
Tal Wanish
Because they introduce themselves at the crag. Like that's what makes a local. It's not just. Yep, they climbed the 13 D project at this crag and so they get local status. It's who's actually contributing to the local scene. And so like I know plenty of people who are locals to areas they don't live in because they spend two months a year there.

00:49:45:06 - 00:50:00:04
Tal Wanish
And when they're there, they are there, they're fully ensconced. They know everybody. They're doing the trail days, they're doing all that. And, you know, there was a real rock a while back about Joe's Valley that was exactly that was literally what happened. Right? Some guy from Salt Lake who was such a local, he ended up eventually moving there.

00:50:00:04 - 00:50:10:08
Tal Wanish
But it's like, no, it's just, hey, how can I help a city clean up that? How can I help with crag cleanups? How can I do this? And that's so accessible to so many people where it's like, yeah, just put a wrench in your bag,

00:50:11:08 - 00:50:30:10
Kyle
And that was, that was the same story where like they got so involved with the community out there and educated the town of like who we are. We're not just a bunch of like you know poor dirtbags. Like we we have money. These are like $100,000 vans like. And, you know, the whole town marketing change, like climbers. Welcome like climbers.

00:50:30:10 - 00:50:43:24
Kyle
Coffee. Like, they started selling kombucha in the store and it, like, sold out, like they were making a bunch of money. And so, yeah, it's just I think another really great example of like, yeah, we just need to be our best selves and start to integrate and show people, you know, who we are and what we have to offer.

00:50:43:24 - 00:50:45:13
Kyle
And I think people will be receptive

00:50:45:13 - 00:50:54:16
Tal Wanish
where people just like any other community. And so when you come into it with, with open arms to. Hey, no, I'm not just here to use these resources like, I genuinely want to be a part of this community

00:50:55:00 - 00:50:59:13
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

00:50:59:15 - 00:51:22:23
Kyle
So you are part of a thriving, connected climbing community now. But it seems like it wasn't always like that. It seems like there was a point where you were kind of, like, begging for mentors, struggling to find climbing partners. You know, considering where you are now, that fact kind of, like, stood out to me. So, tell me about that part of your life.

00:51:22:23 - 00:51:35:25
Tal Wanish
started climbing in Clemson, South Carolina when I was going to school there, took a rock climbing course to keep my scholarship because I needed extra credit hour and, thought it was cool until we went outside for the first time, which was the last day of class

00:51:37:14 - 00:51:41:24
Kyle
Seems like the opposite of most people's stories.

00:51:41:24 - 00:51:45:13
Tal Wanish
climbing gym, top rope birthday parties.

00:51:45:16 - 00:52:02:14
Tal Wanish
Until we went in top rope outside and I just fell in love. I was like, oh, now I get it. Like, this is I get to spend time outside. I get to do less cardio than hiking. I'm like playing and having fun. And, you know, I grew up climbing trees in Florida. That's where we originally born. And my grandma had a beautiful tree in front of her yard.

00:52:02:14 - 00:52:20:02
Tal Wanish
And so me and my brother would climb that all the time and, yeah, started climbing. Clemson was really into like backpacking and stuff. And when I graduated to the PCT, quickly realized I hated hiking like before. Before I even hit the start of the trail. Like from the walk from the bus stop, you you get dropped off to the terminus.

00:52:20:04 - 00:52:21:22
Tal Wanish
I was like, I have made a critical

00:52:24:01 - 00:52:25:21
Kyle
Yeah.

00:52:25:21 - 00:52:51:25
Tal Wanish
and then got off and went to Denver and it was like, well, I was really planning on being into hiking when I got out here, and that's not going to work. So I need to find something else and kind of remembered climbing and just self-taught, like went to that North Table area I talked about right outside of Denver as easy walk up top rope access, and did a refresher on everything I learned in course, and then YouTube University my way, and a pull up bar in my door to learn anchor systems and rappelling and and all of

00:52:51:25 - 00:53:12:00
Tal Wanish
that, and went outside and bluffed my way into getting a few climbing partners here and there, and then bagged all of my coworkers to let me take them out. Once I felt like I could do so without killing them and just did not have consistent partners in any way, probably until I had. I had one good climbing partner who, had actually been dropped.

00:53:12:00 - 00:53:18:06
Tal Wanish
He's like one of my best friends. Jackie, you'd been dropped like 50ft from a route, before I met him.

00:53:20:09 - 00:53:31:00
Kyle
In. And what. In what circumstances do you know?

00:53:31:02 - 00:53:44:27
Kyle
Just, like, sizzled through the fucking device.

00:53:45:00 - 00:53:49:12
Kyle
Holy shit!

00:53:49:12 - 00:53:57:21
Tal Wanish
really good partners for a while. But that moment kind of like, resurfaced after a year or two, and he just ended up getting out of climbing and so

00:53:58:24 - 00:54:02:15
Kyle
Like a close call happened again. And then he bailed.

00:54:02:15 - 00:54:03:29
Tal Wanish
is kind of just resurfacing.

00:54:03:29 - 00:54:04:15
Tal Wanish
He just couldn't

00:54:06:05 - 00:54:07:20
Kyle
Yeah.

00:54:07:20 - 00:54:14:14
Tal Wanish
and things like that, it yeah, it started like infecting like he wasn't enjoying bouldering anymore. It just like was in general, just the anxiety around the

00:54:15:12 - 00:54:16:23
Kyle
That sucks.

00:54:16:23 - 00:54:33:02
Tal Wanish
went back to scrounging for partners and it wasn't really until I started developing for like, I started getting mentors and then started finding partners and started kind of because developing in his largely manual labor and top rope soloing, you don't actually need a second person for it.

00:54:33:04 - 00:54:45:19
Tal Wanish
And so I started being able to operate on my own schedule a little bit, which meant I could be a little bit more selective with putting mental energy towards partnerships that I thought were actually going to last. Instead of teaching somebody how to lead belay and hoping that

00:54:47:12 - 00:54:54:28
Kyle
Here's a Gregory. Tie a knot at the end of the system. Good luck.

00:54:55:00 - 00:55:01:05
Kyle
Yeah. Yeah.

00:55:01:07 - 00:55:02:17
Kyle
Yeah.

00:55:02:20 - 00:55:05:13
Kyle
You're like I think I'm going to repel.

00:55:05:15 - 00:55:09:22
Kyle
Yeah.

00:55:09:25 - 00:55:11:23
Kyle
Yeah.

00:55:11:23 - 00:55:20:03
Tal Wanish
that that was really difficult, but I, argued with enough people in Mountain Project and then offered to show me that I was wrong in person, specifically Peter Thomas.

00:55:20:03 - 00:55:52:05
Tal Wanish
He was the former head of Re, bolting for the boulder, climbing Coalition. He is the man. He is like, the reason I was re bolting is the reason I was developing. If he's listening to this, which I hope he is like, we mostly give give each other shit so he he probably doesn't know this is how I feel about him, but he's been, like, such an inspiration, in climbing and just like what a steward can be for the area and how you can both be successful as a climber and community member as well as give back in these meaningful ways.

00:55:52:12 - 00:56:09:00
Tal Wanish
And so he kind of took me under his wing. He had posted a practice ground anchor at the base of a crag, and I commented some snarky comment about there, another one like three quarters of a mile upstream. And I was like, why do we have to so close? And, he offered to just be like, hey, let's talk about it.

00:56:09:00 - 00:56:42:00
Tal Wanish
Like I need to do some rebuilding. Why don't you come out? You can look at it in person and we can replace some bolts and, I've, like, changed my tune dramatically, but just like that welcoming, like, humble mindset has just been, like, such a positive influence. And once I started bringing that into other interactions with people in the climbing community and stopped doing the whole like I am saltier than you schtick, it just became so much easier to find, mentors and partners and kind of then become the mentor to other people and be that person for other people.

00:56:42:00 - 00:56:43:04
Tal Wanish
And so.

00:56:43:15 - 00:57:03:10
Kyle
You had said a couple things. One, you seemed like there was almost like, a belief where there's, like a challenge between, like, being a successful climber, also being a root developer and being a steward, and then almost like, you feel like you came to a place where they all cohesively worked together. What was that transition like?

00:57:03:10 - 00:57:08:06
Kyle
Why? Why did you feel like there was a tension between those three things separately?

00:57:08:08 - 00:57:10:26
Kyle
Yeah.

00:57:10:26 - 00:57:25:16
Tal Wanish
people from being like lifers and climbing is feeling like they need to follow a specific path. And that's where I was. I felt like I needed to climb specific grades. At the time, I was super scared of, like, lead falls. I felt like I needed to be this hardcore, like badass climber.

00:57:25:16 - 00:57:52:02
Tal Wanish
I needed to climb super hard and things like that. And I stopped doing that and started just following where my passion in the sport was lying. Sometimes I was sport climbing and like projecting and trying hard, and sometimes that was adventuring and doing easy long stuff and bouldering and things like that. And all of a sudden I saw a, I saw that I could spend a season developing, not training at all, and come back stronger just because I was excited to do things.

00:57:52:02 - 00:58:08:17
Tal Wanish
And specifically that catalyst was Covid, the lockdowns where I was horrified of like climbing and just frustrated with a lot of things. And, you know, the the ginormous two week lockdown we had here in Denver. I came out the other end frothing at the mouth, and I was like, I don't care what it is, I just want to climb.

00:58:08:17 - 00:58:23:14
Tal Wanish
I just want to have fun. Like, I just want to be outside and like, almost on a on a dime. I just it's like my lead had kind of came under control where I was. It wasn't that I was less scared. It's just that I was willing to acknowledge the fear and either sit with it or decide, not today.

00:58:23:14 - 00:58:35:23
Tal Wanish
I can come back like I can always come back. I wasn't in that, like over Stoker. Like, I have to do this today. This has to happen thing. And it just like immediately kind of metered itself into a more sustainable path. And I started seeing, like,

00:58:35:23 - 00:58:40:08
Tal Wanish
I got a lot of fulfillment doing stewardship work, not just bragging.

00:58:40:08 - 00:58:54:26
Tal Wanish
I got a lot of fulfillment replacing bolts, not just projecting, and that there was these ways I could be interacting with the sport without actively being on the wall, climbing hard. That fulfilled those needs

00:58:56:04 - 00:59:03:28
Kyle
Do you feel like you put that that's that pressure that you put on yourself, on everybody around you as well.

00:59:03:28 - 00:59:26:10
Tal Wanish
so. I think it's more of, what is the word for it? Imposter syndrome. That's the word felt like a lot of imposter syndrome, that I was dealing with. And I don't think I've ever put that on other folks. And if I have, I apologize to anybody listening to this.

00:59:26:12 - 00:59:50:29
Tal Wanish
But I, I definitely think that it was an issue for myself where I felt like I needed to do certain things to to engage with the sport and love it. And that the way anybody else engaged with it was valid except for me. And so I think like overcoming that and realizing like, oh, no, there's a healthy way to be in the sport and I don't have to hit a certain grade or do a certain thing for that to for my space in the sport to be secured was it was pretty liberating.

00:59:51:16 - 00:59:53:09
Kyle
What do you do for work?

00:59:53:09 - 00:59:55:05
Tal Wanish
now I'm an arborist. Yeah, I do tree

00:59:55:26 - 00:59:58:15
Kyle
Okay. Nice.

00:59:58:17 - 01:00:25:03
Kyle
Do you. So this, this this vein of like self-worth and climbing and like the pressure we put on ourselves to perform and the attachment it has to our, our identity and our ego at times. At least for me, anecdotally, I had the same experience, but it was because I lacked purpose and and kind of like direction in my life in other areas.

01:00:25:06 - 01:00:43:04
Kyle
And so climbing was the one thing that I felt like I could work on. And if I couldn't do climbing, then I had nothing else to fall back on. Was there an element of that with the pressure that you put on yourself? Is there any sort of kind of parallel thinking with that?

01:00:43:04 - 01:01:05:28
Tal Wanish
was in a relationship that in hindsight, I was very unhappy in and had a lot of self-esteem issues arise from. I was doing work with people I really loved, but in something that didn't feel super challenging for me, and I was kind of felt like I was stagnating a little bit in that I had spent a lot of my life scheming how I could get out of South Carolina.

01:01:06:00 - 01:01:24:08
Tal Wanish
I was now out of South Carolina, working in space, like making, like, more money than I thought I would ever make, doing these things. So, you know, in this relationship that seem very successful, all the time. And I just felt very unfulfilled and felt like I wasn't moving towards things. And this felt like, a whole new opportunity for growth.

01:01:24:12 - 01:01:51:19
Tal Wanish
I think I have probably like two core values in my life, and one of which is growth. And the other one is like shared experiences with people and climbing just nailed both, for me. And so I really was putting basically all of my self-worth into it from there. And so I think putting it in a way where it's like, hey, I still derive self-worth from this, but my self-worth isn't defined by this, if that makes sense.

01:01:51:19 - 01:02:09:25
Tal Wanish
Right? Like, I get to see the test of who I am as a person through this sport, but if I fail those test in climbing, that doesn't mean I fail them elsewhere in life, right? If I blow my project or give up on a project, that doesn't mean I'm giving up on a relationship that's going through a tough patch, or you know, failing at a job or things like that.

01:02:09:25 - 01:02:18:00
Tal Wanish
Right? It's just another place in which I spend my time. And so I think that's kind of where that, that healthier mindset came from.

01:02:19:05 - 01:02:48:18
Kyle
I think you also diversified. Right. It's like it's so easy to get super hyper focused on grades and performance. And it usually that pushes us to take unnecessary risks. But it almost sounds like you've found more fulfillment and more self-worth through other avenues of climbing, which was route development and stewardship. Like there's this other side of the coin that you can participate in, that kind of rounds yourself out as a climber and takes the pressure off of performance, which I think is so important.

01:02:48:18 - 01:03:09:07
Tal Wanish
my self-worth from what I can provide to others. So the root development thing is kind of enabling that spiral a little bit. But I mean, like the you talked about, like, community, right? Finding the community. And I think that's the thing that from climbing, I've both, struggled with and been the most happy with, I really struggle with identifying the climbing community in some ways.

01:03:09:09 - 01:03:27:12
Tal Wanish
Historically when people said I tell is a very unique name, so I get recognized at the crag a lot like just for like, oh, I've heard that name before. And historically it's been like, oh, I've seen you on a mountain project. But now it's starting to be like a little bit of, like the oh, I've seen your roots, I've seen the guidebook, things like that, which is pretty cool.

01:03:27:15 - 01:03:35:15
Tal Wanish
But like, I've definitely gotten into it with people online and got in real life and just like had I'm a very, like, strong opinions, loosely

01:03:38:15 - 01:04:03:18
Kyle
I do. Yeah I know. So let's talk about that. So it sounds, it sounds like you've kind of like had this like tale online versus like tell now what kind of made you what, what stirred your fire or what like, got you roused up online. Like what was the reason for the heat and like, the energy that you had towards kind of like engaging with with the community in that way.

01:04:03:21 - 01:04:11:16
Kyle
Were you trying to prove something? Do you feel like, you know, what was your mentality behind interacting in that way?

01:04:11:16 - 01:04:38:09
Tal Wanish
about that today. I don't know exactly one thing I know that really grinds my gears in general is when people are very definitive about things that are a nuanced situation. And I found myself consistently having conversations with people where I just in my head, I was like, they're saying that there's a definitive right answer here, and there's just not like there's so many different ways to skin a cat.

01:04:38:12 - 01:05:01:28
Tal Wanish
And so it's frustrating to feel like my answers right and their answers right, and they're not acknowledging that like that. Both options can be correct. And I don't know about you. I've never stopped discussing something with someone. When they told me, I had no idea what I was talking about, and I did that all the time. Like, I would just be like, you have no idea what you're talking about.

01:05:02:01 - 01:05:20:21
Tal Wanish
And so I think that's how I stopped engaging is I was there's like, we're both right. I don't need them to admit that I'm right. Like, I know I'm right. They know they're right. Sounds like we're both in a good situation here. And so I, like, really dial back a lot on that. Now, mostly when I get involved, it's people acting in bad faith.

01:05:20:21 - 01:05:39:08
Tal Wanish
I think, like people or, like, not willing to hold a conversation. Like, I'll get fire in person. Two I don't I'm never like, mean or yelling or anything like that, but like, oh, I'm willing to like, defend. I will die on any hill pretty much any given time, whether in person or online. And so, I'm like willing to have those discussions there.

01:05:39:08 - 01:05:57:19
Tal Wanish
But, it's also given me a lot of my, my community and like, built a lot of the friendships. It's just like being honest who I am and like, honest about my thoughts and like, I'm a very like, you know, what you're going to get with me? Like, I'm not hiding behind anything. And, seeing that come out and a lot of, like, partners and friends as well, it's been awesome.

01:05:57:21 - 01:06:23:15
Tal Wanish
You know, like you had Tanner on the podcast. He's my brother. And the the biggest thing climbing saved me is like being my brother growing up. We're not super close. And we're like, best friends now. And climbing has been a huge point of that place where we can bond and gives us this, like, amphitheater to really open up in ways that I think are like, it's way easier to have a deep, hard conversation on a wall than it is in a living room for some reason for us.

01:06:23:15 - 01:06:28:20
Tal Wanish
And so it's been a huge place for like, the mountains, been a huge place for growth for both of us.

01:06:29:04 - 01:06:38:29
Kyle
Cool man. That's awesome. Yeah. It's definitely a level playing field. And. Yeah, there's something about nature, man. It's, It's healing. It's healing.

01:06:40:00 - 01:06:52:12
Kyle
Thanks for listening, everyone. That concludes part one of my conversation with tell us if you like today's episode. Be sure to reach out and let me know. You can reach me via Instagram or via email at the Climbing Majority Podcast at gmail.com.

01:06:52:15 - 01:07:05:24
Kyle
Be sure to stay tuned for part two of my conversation with Tell one ish, where we dive into some of his close calls, his view on partnerships and the specifics around some of his proudest first descents. I will see you all in two weeks.