The Climbing Majority
Most of today’s climbing media is focused on what happens at the edges of the sport involving the most experienced and talented climbers in the world. Your host Kyle Broxterman believes that most of these stories and experiences do not directly relate to the majority of climbers that now exist. Thanks to gyms, the Olympics, and mainstream media coverage a vast growing group of people are now discovering this magical sport. As a part of this group, he is here to give this new Climbing Majority a voice. Tune in as he explores the world of climbing, through the lens of a non-professional.
The Climbing Majority
91 | Our Illusion Of Safety w/ IFMGA Silas Rossi
In a world flooded with climbing content, tech tips, and loud online opinions, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed when you’re educating yourself on safety systems. The truth? Learning how to climb safely and efficiently can be confusing—and quite honestly pretty dangerous. So what is the best way to learn? Books, YouTube, mentors, guides? Honestly, it’s a mix of all four.
Today’s guest is someone who has spent his life thinking deeply about how we learn, how we climb, and how we can stay alive in the mountains. Silas Rossi is an IFMGA certified guide, current president of the American Mountain Guides Association, and owner of Alpine Logic Guide Services... With 24 years of climbing under his belt, he’s instructed athletes, recreational climbers, and guides around the world. He’s climbed the Matterhorn nearly a dozen times, spent multiple seasons in the Alps, and enjoys crushing hard trad routes near his hometown in New York—Silas is the real deal.
And yet, despite his deep experience and knowledge, Silas is the first to say that no matter how dialed you are, luck undoubtedly plays a role in the mountains. Mistakes happen. Conditions shift. And with enough time out there, luck is often the invisible hand that tips the balance.
But that doesn’t mean we’re helpless. “Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.” If we prioritize safety, build good systems, and stay aware, we give ourselves the best chance to succeed—and survive.
In this conversation, we dig into the philosophy of risk. We uncover the truth that most of us are probably less prepared than we think—for emergencies, for rescues, for moments when things really go sideways. We unpack the phrase: “If you’re not falling, you’re not trying.” And we go into some simple yet often overlooked ways to build safety and redundancy into our systems.
We also take a hard look at the guiding industry in America, the public’s misconceptions about hiring guides, and how the influencer-ification of safety content has both helped and hurt the profession.
This one is packed with knowledge, insight, and reflection—and I’m stoked to share it with you.
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Resources
Alpine Logic (Hire Silas As A Guide)
Sign Up For The Ascend Membership
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:24
Kyle
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.
00:00:09:26 - 00:00:14:17
Kyle
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.
00:00:15:26 - 00:00:37:06
Kyle
What's up everybody? Just a quick note before we dive in. If you're here, you are a part of the majority, and that's pretty awesome. Also, big shout out to our newest Patreon subscriber, Matt. Thank you for jumping on board and supporting the show. I'm recording our first Patreon exclusive episode this week, and it's going to be all about climbing partnerships, how to find partners, how to keep them.
00:00:37:08 - 00:00:55:28
Kyle
How to build a strong network of climbers, and more. Be sure to sign up for our Patreon to get access to this exclusive episode for as little as $3 a month. You can support the show, plus on top of subscriber only content. Your contributions help cover my shipping costs of sending professional recording equipment to each guest, and you help me keep this podcast ad free.
00:00:56:01 - 00:01:23:20
Kyle
Click the link in the description or head over to Patreon.com Slash the Climbing Majority podcast. That's Patreon.com slash the Climbing Majority podcast. All right, let's dive into today's conversation. In a world flooded with climbing content, tech tips, and loud online opinions, it's easy to feel overwhelmed when you're educating yourself on climbing safety systems. The truth? Learning how to climb safely and efficiently can be confusing and quite honestly, pretty dangerous.
00:01:23:22 - 00:01:51:10
Kyle
So what is the best way to learn books? YouTube mentors. Guides. Honestly, it's a mix of all four. Today's guest is someone who has spent his life thinking deeply about how we learn, how we climb, and how we can stay alive in the mountains. Silas Rossi is an IFM certified guide. Current president of the American Mountain Guides Association and owner of Alpine Logic Guide Services with 24 years of climbing under his belt.
00:01:51:10 - 00:02:14:05
Kyle
He's instructed athletes, recreational climbers and guides around the world. He's climbed the Matterhorn nearly a dozen times, spent multiple seasons in the Alps and enjoys crushing hard trad routes near his hometown in New York. Silas is the real deal. And yet, despite his deep experience and knowledge, Silas is the first to say that no matter how dialed you are, luck undoubtably plays a role in the mountains.
00:02:14:07 - 00:02:37:01
Kyle
Mistakes happen. Conditions shift, and with enough time out there, luck is often the invisible hand that tips the balance. But that doesn't mean we're helpless. Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity. If we prioritize safety, build good systems, and stay aware, we give ourselves the best chance to succeed and survive. In this conversation, we dig into the philosophy of risk.
00:02:37:04 - 00:03:04:25
Kyle
We uncover the truth that most of us are probably less prepared than we think. For emergencies, for rescues. For moments when things really go sideways, we unpack the phrase if you're not falling, you're not trying. And we go into some simple yet overlooked ways to build safety and redundancy into our systems. We also take a hard look at the guiding industry in America, the public's misconceptions about hiring guides, and how the influencer ification of safety content has both helped and hurt the profession.
00:03:04:27 - 00:03:13:06
Kyle
This one is packed with knowledge, insight, and reflection, and I'm stoked to share it with you. So without further ado, I bring you Silas Rossi.
00:03:25:27 - 00:03:34:07
Kyle
through your experience, what percentage do you feel of outdoor recreational climbers are able to properly judge their own safety while leading above gear?
00:03:38:05 - 00:03:47:16
Silas
I know I have no idea about an actual number or percentage, but I would say probably not. As many are actually as competent as they might think they're.
00:03:47:16 - 00:03:56:11
Kyle
like, at the same percentage, same question about people able to actually handle, like a rescue scenario, whether that be self rescue or aiding in a rescue of somebody else?
00:03:57:02 - 00:04:19:21
Silas
That one, I think people probably are more, in tune with the fact that they don't they wouldn't know what to do in a real scenario, in a real rescue scenario. I think largely people know that, but they're still not very overly focused on the rescue skills a lot of the time. Yeah, a little bit of stress because a really long way.
00:04:19:21 - 00:04:44:10
Silas
And if things actually go sideways, if it can get kind of ugly pretty quick. So, you just want to have all those skills that you might, might need or use to be just like totally second nature. And they're perishable skills that we don't practice very often. So, you know, unless you're like really taking the time to focus on that stuff regularly and train, then it's just not going to be second nature.
00:04:44:13 - 00:04:56:22
Silas
So I think people largely know that, and accidents largely don't happen. So it kind of works out.
00:04:56:24 - 00:04:59:20
Silas
I mean, prevention, right. Like. Yeah, absolutely.
00:04:59:23 - 00:05:00:12
Silas
Yeah.
00:05:00:14 - 00:05:02:28
Silas
It's a huge part of that.
00:05:02:28 - 00:05:21:00
Kyle
circling back on that kind of, you know, the original question of, like, being able to judge your own safety. You know, we have this this internal question when we climb of, of needing to to answer that question at any given moment, you know, whether you're above gear, like, did I place that place, you know, did I place the gear correctly?
00:05:21:00 - 00:05:41:28
Kyle
Did I do it right? Will it hold a fall? And I think it's kind of a hard question to really answer until you actually fall on on the piece of protection. Right. So like for someone getting into the sport, for someone that's dealing with gear fear, for someone that's trying to push themselves, you know, how can we better, as climbers trust our own
00:05:43:16 - 00:06:10:12
Silas
Yeah. I think you have to get the data. And I think it the overarching principle, like as an educator and a teacher, a mentor for me is that, you know, working a progression is the answer to anything, right? Exposure therapy, like, that's a term. It's kind of in vogue right now. But just working through things and gradually getting more used to, the way things work, getting the data on how good your gear actually is.
00:06:10:15 - 00:06:34:03
Silas
Getting the data on taking falls from small falls to bigger falls. Just so you have like actual real world experience so you can make a sound judgment in what you're seeing and feeling in the field. You know, a lot of the stuff just goes by our gut, and our gut may or may not be accurate at any given time.
00:06:34:03 - 00:06:38:02
Kyle
say that aid climbing is a good source for building that relationship with gear?
00:06:38:19 - 00:06:56:29
Silas
That's a great place to start. Yeah. I mean, bodyweight testing placements is a great place to start. It's not going to be quite the same as holding a real fall, obviously. But it's a good place to start. It's a good place to start with, like the gear setting in the right orientation and actually starting to bite in the rock.
00:06:57:06 - 00:07:00:18
Silas
Whether it's another cam or trick in or whatever it is.
00:07:00:18 - 00:07:16:24
Silas
Right? Like, if you're actually on a pitch that you're wondering about how the fall is and you're wondering about how the gear is, I mean, hopefully it's a pitch where you have some ability to back that gear up closely down below that piece or, nest some smaller pieces together.
00:07:16:26 - 00:07:50:24
Silas
But, I mean, even on the pitch that you're concerned about, if you start by body wearing a placement, even with just a sling, like, like you said, aid style and then weighting it, like with the actual rope being in top rope form. I mean, that's doubling the load compared to aid placements, right? The, the whole idea of like the, the pulley effect of a top rope, where if the climber weighs 100 pounds and the ballast holding 100 pounds of the piece holds 200, then, so even a static placement hanging on over the top rope is twice as much as just hanging on with a piece of, sling or a cord left, right.
00:07:50:27 - 00:08:11:28
Silas
And then you can just do progressively bigger falls on that piece to see what it does like, see how it acts. See if it moves. Yeah. The rock quality is. And then see where you land and where you're actually put in space. If, if you were to fall. Right. So, I think just like, really just easing into it is, is the way to go.
00:08:11:28 - 00:08:31:25
Silas
And, you know, the more like the overarching principle is, for me at least, is that if I have a lot of uncertainty, I'm going to ease in more careful, I'm going to be more conservative approaching that. And the more I have figured out, in the less less ambiguity uncertainties there, I can I can commit more to diving in with both feet.
00:08:31:25 - 00:08:51:08
Silas
Right. So I think it's I think the gut is really important for us to recognize and follow and listen to because it is it is there for a reason. And if things are largely new to us and we don't really know what's going to happen, then our gut is going to tell us that hopefully.
00:08:51:10 - 00:08:52:10
Silas
Yeah.
00:08:52:10 - 00:09:11:10
Kyle
the struggle there, though, right? Because if you don't have enough data, your gut doesn't really have the data to make the right decision. It. And I think a lot of people will get scared in that kind of situation. And then you get to the question of like, okay, well, I'm I, you know, is this real based fear or is this just like fear that I'm kind of experiencing that there's not necessary.
00:09:11:10 - 00:09:12:21
Silas
Or.
00:09:12:24 - 00:09:20:09
Silas
Yeah. I mean, I think understanding how much experience you have in that setting with the variables at play is a really important place to start.
00:09:20:11 - 00:09:26:27
Silas
You know, and if you're.
00:09:26:29 - 00:09:39:05
Silas
Yeah, totally. And the pieces that you do have figured out too, right. I mean, knowing what your strengths and knowledge is compared to your weaknesses and lack of knowledge, any situation is really valuable.
00:09:39:08 - 00:09:42:01
Silas
So, yeah.
00:09:42:01 - 00:10:01:00
Kyle
between flow state being in control. And then I thought there might be a third one. It's out of control. Climbing. And, you know, this kind of like, leads into this kind of topic of, of mitigating risk, like, how do you see the difference between those three and do you feel like there's ever a
00:10:06:26 - 00:10:31:26
Silas
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think I think that largely, whether we know it or not, a lot of us have stayed with climbing because we enjoy being in flow State, which, you know, the clinical definition, if you have the book flow or the, the research by, the man's his name, I'm not going to try to pronounce because it's really challenging.
00:10:31:28 - 00:11:01:17
Silas
But the book flow and this man's research is really valuable in that it tells us that flow states accomplished by, feeling like you're very, capable at, performing this very hard task. So basically, your ability to perform the task is pretty high and the task is still challenging. And so from flow, if you mess with either one of those variables, either it's too hard for you or too easy, or you're not feeling as competent at it.
00:11:01:19 - 00:11:24:15
Silas
Or feeling overconfident at it, then that'll change where you are in that, like kind of matrix little graph thing. And so I think we all are just like moving back and forth from flow state into more of a control state or more of, what's causing it like an aroused state? All the time. Right. And so what feels great, I think, is flow state when it's all just kind of happening, like you're just in the moment.
00:11:24:15 - 00:11:50:23
Silas
You're trying hard, it's working. You're doing the thing. You're not having to think about it. It's just happening. It's great, etc.. Right. And then most the time, the best learning happens when you're just past that phase. Like you're just like you're just like a little bit outside your threshold. Like you're really having to like, think and engage and, actively think through all the things that are going on.
00:11:50:29 - 00:11:57:24
Silas
That's where we generally learn the most in that stretch zone. But.
00:11:57:26 - 00:12:19:06
Silas
That's probably not the safest place to be in terms of like, understanding and being able to manage variables that could cause you harm, like in climbing. Right? So when you're in a more controlled state, you just have more access to more bandwidth to focus on seeing a little bit more of the picture, I think. And so for instance, for like for me guiding, that's where I live a lot of the time.
00:12:19:06 - 00:12:40:14
Silas
Right. Like, I, I kind of know how it's going to go largely before we get into it. And of course is always variables that can can change that. But, for the most part, I don't I'm not looking to be in the flow state or beyond, maybe, which maybe is like kind of out of control phase. You mentioned when I'm guiding for sure, because that's exactly not my job.
00:12:40:14 - 00:13:14:13
Silas
Right. Like, my clients are having experience and adventure, but I should not be probably, for at least most of the time. So I think it's just a balance of, of rolling the dice and being outside what you're really comfortable and capable of, right? And competent and and the that's the magic is like finding that edge that's hopefully sustainable over the long term of of pushing and engaging and having a great time and have these like peak experiences with also not obviously getting hurt or having something bad happen.
00:13:14:13 - 00:13:18:23
Silas
So,
00:13:18:23 - 00:13:38:05
Kyle
wired in a way where overcoming the fear is a sense of pride, and therefore kind of putting themselves in these more dangerous, risky situations that kind of warrant the fear reaction. To me, it's it's unsustainable.
00:13:39:07 - 00:13:42:03
Kyle
You know, have you met anybody like that? And what advice would you give
00:13:44:29 - 00:14:09:28
Silas
I mean, I think we all have different risk tolerances, and we're all just comfortable taking different amounts of risk. So if that's someone's thing, like, I mean, game on, like, hats off to them, you know, like, it's it's really not my place. I don't feel like to tell anyone how much risk to take. I look at my job as being,
00:14:10:00 - 00:14:31:28
Silas
Hopefully a voice that helps you understand the risks you are taking. So if I can help educate someone in and, like, hey, like this sort of setup or or doing this sort of thing, is really probably more dangerous than you think or the consequences of this scenario are high because of these reasons. Or if you learn these skills, you'll just be generally safer.
00:14:32:01 - 00:14:53:23
Silas
I try to help people understand the risks they're actually taking, and usually that's through knowledge and experience. Just being able to see more nuance, to be able to see more, of the, the details and, and different in different scenarios. And then they can take that information and assume as much risk as they're willing to, to take, I guess.
00:14:53:26 - 00:15:14:20
Silas
And I mean, I mean, to be honest, like I feel a little bit split sometimes I, I was talking about this with my colleague, last night where it's like my, my entire career revolves around. Basically saying, hey, we should be doing this as safely as possible. Yet I'm also in the field 200 days a year doing a really dangerous thing.
00:15:14:20 - 00:15:31:18
Silas
So like, you know, like my exposure overall is higher than a lot of people's, so my general philosophy is like, I do it as safe as I can, but the law of big numbers is against me, right? The longer I do this, the more days. And this is true for all of us. The longer I do it, the more days out the feel I have.
00:15:31:21 - 00:15:49:28
Silas
You know, if it's a very small percent chance of something going wrong, it's more likely to happen the longer you do it right. So there's that piece, and then there's also the piece of sometimes it's fun to take risks, like, let's be honest, right? Like let's just call an ace an ace and say that it's it's kind of fun doing dangerous things.
00:15:49:28 - 00:15:52:07
Silas
Well,
00:15:52:09 - 00:16:15:17
Silas
So, you know, like, I, like, drive my dirt bike fast. You know, I like snowmobiling in remote places. I like going on trips that are really far from the road, that sort of stuff. Right. So like that adventure and risk taking, I think is, is built into all of us that do these things. And it's just being really honest with ourselves and trying to understand the risks that we're taking.
00:16:15:17 - 00:16:17:22
Silas
That, I think is the most important part.
00:16:17:22 - 00:16:37:10
Kyle
Okay. On this topic of kind of risk, you know, there's this progressive nature of danger, in the different disciplines of climbing, you know, I would say, you know, bouldering, sport climbing, try climbing, alpine, high altitude climbing. Each kind of discipline starts to accept more and more risk. Do you feel like.
00:16:37:13 - 00:16:47:20
Kyle
Throughout these disciplines, you know, risk is ever fully mitigated, all manageable? Or are there areas in the world of climbing where we are rolling the dice?
00:16:48:26 - 00:17:08:04
Silas
Oh, yeah. I think we all roll the dice all the time. I think luck plays a huge part of it. Part in it. I think I think luck plays a bigger part than any of us want to admit. And all those scenarios. And I don't know that the risk. I mean, there's lots of ways to think about risk.
00:17:08:06 - 00:17:32:26
Silas
And, and I mean, for example, like, I don't boulder a lot because, well, partly because I haven't bothered a lot. So I am more worried about the ground fall potential. And like every fall being a ground fall. So so if I'm not as good at bouldering, it's going to be more dangerous, right? And if I'm not as good at placing track gear, it's going to be more dangerous.
00:17:32:29 - 00:17:54:12
Silas
If I'm not as good at reading ice quality than just understanding weather patterns and how the ice formed ice climb is going to be more dangerous. I mean, so in my mind, like it's the risk part is really interesting because it's it's super subjective to your skill sets and your knowledge and so absolutely like like like going through that progression, you're adding on more variables that are at play.
00:17:54:14 - 00:18:12:20
Silas
And so yes, I think inherently like risk is going up as you went through that kind of list. And alpine climbing is probably, you know, really high up there, especially with with alpine skiing as well, where you're just balancing a bunch of variables all the time, and so many of them are out of your control and so many are just unknowable.
00:18:12:22 - 00:18:17:09
Silas
And so,
00:18:17:09 - 00:18:37:02
Silas
You have to be really skilled and you have to spend a lot of time in that terrain looking at all those variables to even start to begin to do those things safely. Right. But a big part of the risk analysis is, is subjective, I guess, is my point, and that there are big objective risks.
00:18:37:05 - 00:19:01:24
Silas
But the subjective part is, well, where are you located and when relative to those big risks like back fall, right. And if you're if you're missing the cues of a warm up, for example, or salary ideation or whatever it is over time with the conditions and weather part of it, then of course is going to be more dangerous because you're just not skilled enough to understand how those things interact.
00:19:01:26 - 00:19:16:17
Silas
So I think, I think probably there are more variables as you go through that list at play. You have to understand them better to even have a chance. And just by virtue of all those things adding up, you have to be luckier.
00:19:16:17 - 00:19:17:15
Kyle
you feel? Like one could
00:19:17:15 - 00:19:18:29
Kyle
Curated luck.
00:19:19:09 - 00:19:20:13
Silas
Hot.
00:19:20:15 - 00:19:23:18
Silas
I mean.
00:19:23:18 - 00:19:42:14
Silas
I mean, that's the that's the thing, right? Like, I have some friends that say, well, better lucky than good. And some friends, they say, well, better lucky than or sorry, better good than lucky. I want to be both really good and really lucky. So I don't know how to create luck, except for being as well-rounded and skilled as I possibly can.
00:19:42:17 - 00:19:49:23
Silas
And and trying to figure out the variables and risks at play as well as I can before I get into that terrain.
00:19:49:23 - 00:20:06:11
Silas
Right. The the planning, the preparation piece. The training piece, all those things, and not just for a season or a year, but like over decades of, you know, your overall training and evolution as a as a climber or skier, playing as that as well.
00:20:06:15 - 00:20:21:24
Silas
I mean, having great mentors is it's probably the single biggest thing you can do to, to safely navigate a progression of any kind. But especially getting in situations where there's lots of variables that play like that.
00:20:21:27 - 00:20:28:14
Silas
Totally. I was going to try to quote that, but I was like, oh, I can't quite remember how that goes. I missed quote that one all the time.
00:20:28:14 - 00:20:29:24
Silas
But yeah.
00:20:29:24 - 00:20:43:23
Kyle
essentially makes sense. You know, you you put yourself in a position where, you know, you allow luck to happen to you, right? Rather than, you know, kind of doing everything wrong and then almost attracting those, those kind of poor outcomes.
00:20:44:13 - 00:20:49:29
Silas
Yeah. I mean, the things, the things we don't know, we don't know can still kill us, right?
00:20:50:02 - 00:20:50:27
Silas
For sure.
00:20:50:27 - 00:21:18:20
Kyle
Okay. One thing that I'm curious as to your, your thoughts on this. So. In the past and kind of I would say currently, if I'm being honest, I feel like there's a little bit of randomness when it comes to trad gear and trad falls. Like, I feel like there's almost no real way to know whether or not the piece is going to hold you in a fall, unless you actually fall on it.
00:21:18:22 - 00:21:24:04
Kyle
Is that a real thing, or is that a symptom of poor gear knowledge?
00:21:27:07 - 00:21:50:27
Silas
I mean, you can never know with 100% certainty about anything and how it's going to act. But I do think, like, thinking about the level of confidence you have around something is pretty useful. And that goes back to that kind of based on experience piece, for sure. It's kind of like, well, what what percent chance of that going bad or not working do you have in your brain.
00:21:50:29 - 00:22:16:10
Silas
Right. And so I you know, I play some pieces and I'm like that thing's absolutely truck. There's no way it could ever come out of that placement. And some I have lesson too with, yeah. I mean with, with cam specifically or with nuts for that matter too. Oftentimes just placing the piece and giving it a quick like, yank test, like a jerk test on the piece with the draw.
00:22:16:12 - 00:22:46:25
Silas
If you're wondering about how it's going to kind of sit in the crack, can do a lot to like start the placement moving. If it's going to into the place, it'll actually start holding. And that initial especially with cams, that initial biting, of the lobes and, and the ROC like the transference from the force going out to going out against from out where you're pulling it out against the crack, will give you a pretty good indication that if that starts holding like that, it's probably going to keep holding, at least to a certain point.
00:22:46:28 - 00:22:49:05
Silas
Right.
00:22:53:25 - 00:23:02:11
Silas
Yeah. You're testing the surface friction. Yep. And that depends on that relies on angle as well as the actual coefficient of friction in the crack.
00:23:02:14 - 00:23:03:29
Silas
Yeah.
00:23:03:29 - 00:23:21:03
Kyle
you're, you're a big proponent of nest nesting gear. And that's something I really am a proponent as well. And it's funny I don't know if you've seen but I run like a piece of chain. I post a bunch of climbing videos. It's all about trad. And it's funny, like when I anytime I'll double up on gear, someone's like, well, why did you place that second one?
00:23:21:05 - 00:23:39:03
Kyle
And like my answer is always like, why not? You know, it's like, you know, it's it's it kind of leads into kind of where I want to take this. But, you know, there's almost like this pressure to take on more risk, bring less gear, you know, low, thin your rack down as much as you can, place less, run out more.
00:23:39:10 - 00:24:00:12
Kyle
You know, it's almost like this, this pressure that, I mean, I felt when I was getting into climbing and in my social circles and throughout this podcast, the people I meet, it's this common thread that I continue to see people, you know, whether it's, you know, pressure they put on themselves or maybe it's a pressure from social media, or maybe it's a pressure from external factors.
00:24:00:12 - 00:24:14:22
Kyle
But there is a general thread of this pressure to, I would say, assume more risk in a way when it comes to climbing. Like where do you think that pressure comes from? And does it have a place in climbing?
00:24:16:11 - 00:24:43:03
Silas
Interesting. Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think largely all of us in climbing or, you know, we we have healthy egos, right? I mean, it's it's nice to feel like you're a badass. It's nice to feel good at something. And, I don't know, like, it's it does sometimes come out in a way that's unhealthy or even toxic.
00:24:43:05 - 00:25:01:16
Silas
And I just don't think it's a competition at all. I don't think I don't think there's any room for any of that stuff at all. Like that conversation doesn't exist. For me, in my world of climbing, maybe it did for a little while early on, but I. I don't even listen to those voices at all at this point.
00:25:01:24 - 00:25:20:18
Silas
I mean, I do remember reading very early on in my climbing career, you know, 20 plus years ago, like Mark Twain talking about climbing these great big routes in Alaska, with, you know, the, the super light rock. And then I went and did some routes in Alaska and I'm like, wow. Like, I, I think I just want the gear.
00:25:20:18 - 00:25:38:25
Silas
I want to climb the pitch relatively safely and I'm going to be faster because I'll be climbing more quickly, because I feel if I feel safer, I'll be climbing more quickly. So yeah, I'm going to carry a little bit more. But so I don't know, it's it's a super personal thing. Everyone has to figure that out for themselves.
00:25:38:27 - 00:26:00:00
Silas
And you just want to feel good about what you're up to, right? Like you just want to feel confident and capable and like you're having fun and, you know, maybe pushing yourself a little bit mentally and or physically, but you don't want to be feeling scared or or less them or any of that sort of thing.
00:26:05:12 - 00:26:06:28
Silas
Yeah.
00:26:07:01 - 00:26:29:09
Silas
No, I don't think it's why anyone would start climbing, which, I mean, I, I, I think, I think we've all been scared, obviously, but I, I think part of the satisfaction comes from doing things that maybe you used to be scared. Doing that now are not scary, right.
00:26:29:09 - 00:26:54:27
Kyle
the catch, right? Is like, it's back to that fear thing of, like, overcoming fear, overcoming, being scared. Like overcoming those situations where you were scared and then triumphing and having that kind of satisfaction after the fact. But I don't know. I feel like there's more satisfaction in executing something just flawlessly. Right? Like climbing, you know, even if it's not an on site climbing through pitch every gear you like.
00:26:54:29 - 00:27:16:01
Kyle
I was so confident on all that gear, and I moved through it all, and I got to the chains and sure, I'm like, tired and I push myself. But I was never scared. I was in control. I was locked in. Like, to me, that is that's such a bigger source of pride than like just being gripped out of my freaking mind and then, like, somehow making it to the chains, you know, like, honestly, I'd be kind of like a shame to myself at that point, you know?
00:27:16:01 - 00:27:17:26
Kyle
It's like, what went wrong there? You know?
00:27:17:26 - 00:27:33:06
Silas
I was going to say, I think there's actually a lot of shame and people being scared, climbing. And I think that, I mean, we all have insecurities, obviously, but, Yeah. Like, that's there's just no place for shaming other people.
00:27:33:08 - 00:27:34:22
Silas
About.
00:27:34:22 - 00:27:47:02
Kyle
but shaming myself in terms of putting myself in a situation where I was scared because to me, scared means out of control, means that I'm in a risky situation where, like, I don't like the outcome of of what would happen if I fell.
00:27:47:26 - 00:28:06:00
Silas
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, shaming our that's a shaming ourselves is a whole topic. We I think it's probably spent a lot of time talking about that. But I yeah, I mean, it's, I think being kind of ourselves goes a long way, I guess.
00:28:06:00 - 00:28:12:12
Kyle
I'm definitely not advocating. That's a shaming yourself.
00:28:12:12 - 00:28:29:16
Kyle
What about this, this phrase, if you're not falling, you're not trying. Do you like, what's your take on it? Especially when it comes to gear climbing. Obviously, ice climbing is a different topic. I'd say it's mostly by gear. And would you say this is advice that most climbers should be following?
00:28:30:19 - 00:29:04:10
Silas
Move. I it's a good question. I mean, I wouldn't, I guess I wouldn't phrase it quite like that. I would say it's it's really important to know when it's okay to fall and when it's not okay to fall. And part of that is just based on your experience, your experience falling. Experienced falling in that way, in that orientation, that kind of distance, in that terrain, on that sort of gear.
00:29:04:12 - 00:29:09:20
Silas
So I think it's it's again, very subjective, but I think we all need to try to figure out.
00:29:10:27 - 00:29:30:07
Silas
When it's okay to fall, when it's not okay to fall. For us personally in the, in the moment, I think that that's the key to really being able to climb your, your best and your hardest. Because, I mean, we have to admit that climbing can be a bit falling can be part of climbing. And doing it appropriately is is kind of the art of the game.
00:29:30:07 - 00:29:31:24
Silas
I think, in my opinion.
00:29:31:24 - 00:29:53:10
Kyle
Yeah. I think again, it's all just like a personal thing of how much experience do you have? How well do you think you could judge a situation? And then back to that, that same thing of nesting. Right. So, like, if you're, if you're looking at a crux move and you're not really sure what's going to happen, you know, maybe put two, 2 or 3 pieces in to just ensure that, you know, however you do come off the wall, the the outcome
00:29:55:02 - 00:29:55:26
Silas
Sure.
00:29:55:28 - 00:30:19:00
Silas
I mean, for for you. What? What are the variables that you think you have a handle on with trad gear? Like, is it certain rock types? Is it certain, rock configurations? Is it certain pieces? Like what? What are the the. If you look at the variables that are all at play, there, which ones do you think you have figured out and which ones do you think are more question marks?
00:30:19:00 - 00:30:20:07
Silas
At times?
00:30:20:07 - 00:30:27:12
Kyle
say that given my history with my accident, it really shook my understanding of placements altogether because I broke the eyelet of a wire on a
00:30:31:17 - 00:30:32:19
Silas
Yeah.
00:30:32:19 - 00:30:37:24
Kyle
you know, to me, I didn't even think that was possible. And so, like, it kind of questioned everything up to this
00:30:39:11 - 00:30:44:11
Silas
How how big of a nut.
00:30:44:14 - 00:30:47:07
Silas
Yeah. So they're pretty small.
00:30:47:07 - 00:30:58:11
Kyle
smaller. But I mean, I'd say five kilograms is still relatively strong. For lead falls, it's like right at the edge, right. Anything smaller? Is it pretty much an eight piece?
00:30:58:14 - 00:30:59:13
Kyle
Yeah.
00:30:59:15 - 00:31:15:19
Kyle
But yeah, I mean, you know, our audience has have heard a lot about this accident. So I want to, you know, go into it too much. There's a lot of factors that went into it. Not a lot of rope out new bilayer, you know, took the slack out of the system. You know, basically all the things that could have gone wrong to increase the forces in the system happened.
00:31:15:21 - 00:31:36:19
Kyle
And so that's what happened. But I would say now, you know, I it's hard to say, you know, I don't really ever know. I'd say I'm confident enough to to climb at the level that I am. And I feel like I can place trad gear. Well, I'd say you know, I have a lot more experience on the sandstone medium than I do others, but I've done my fair share of granite climbing, so I don't know.
00:31:36:19 - 00:31:58:28
Kyle
It's hard to say. I don't know if I can actually answer that question in terms of like how actually confident I am in my placements. It's more of just like, I guess I know where I'm more I'm more confident in my ability to know when I'm going to come on, off or on the wall and being able to, like, mitigate that risk with extra gear and hope that, you know, one of them holds in a way.
00:31:59:13 - 00:32:10:27
Silas
Sure. I mean, I think it's a great topic. And, you know, these these topics are always hard for me to, like. A little bit hard to just speak, like, hypothetically. Or theoretically. And so.
00:32:10:29 - 00:32:14:09
Silas
I mean.
00:32:14:12 - 00:32:37:24
Silas
What I've been realizing more and more for myself is that a piece that's rated for eight cm or greater, I feel a lot better about like that. That piece to me feels like, okay, like now we're talking about it being strong enough, and I'm not tied with the interface of the piece and the rock, but the actual piece in general being strong enough that I feel good about it.
00:32:37:27 - 00:33:01:09
Silas
And so I've been trying to figure out like why that is exactly, of course. And I think a few things go into it. Right. So and I am I will preface this. I am not an engineer. I am not a, physicist. I'm like an applied science guy who's just got, like a bunch of mileage doing stuff and thinking about it, but, like, I have no real authority in this realm whatsoever.
00:33:01:11 - 00:33:27:11
Silas
But I've talked to a lot of very smart people. And so when I think about forces in climbing, I mean, we kind of think about like this, like Caribbean area for 22, sorry. 20 K in by the UAE. Right. Slings are rated for 22. Can the rope test is designed with a single rope to be less than 12 kilonewtons on an 80 kilogram load steel barrel.
00:33:27:13 - 00:33:50:15
Silas
As the climber right, with a fall factor 1.8 over a very small edge, a five millimeter edge, which is basically a carabiner size edge. So 1.84 factor 80 kilogram barrel, and it can exert more than 12 K in on the barrel. Right. That's the that's the UIA. I'm sorry, that's the UIA rating for a single rope I believe.
00:33:50:17 - 00:34:10:18
Silas
And so they drop it once. And if the if it's more than 12 can on that person, it doesn't meet the rating. It's heavy. Less than 12 can right. So so say it's ten M max. Right. If it's doubling if the pulley effect of the piece that gives it your 20 k n. So I don't think it's a coincidence that draws dog bones.
00:34:10:18 - 00:34:30:06
Silas
The slings ready for 22 K and the cabin rate for 20 can. Right. So that that to me is like I consider that to be like a full strength. A structural, full strength kind of climbing rated thing. And so when I build anchors, for example, I'm building them to be more than 20 k m.
00:34:31:17 - 00:34:53:00
Silas
By the ratings on the pieces. Right. And each each piece we have has a rating like you mentioned. And so what that means is, okay, like if the piece is actually breaking at that K and rating. And this is all just like my mental math that I've been again spewing out and kind of thinking about mulling over if I'm trying to build a system and we are creating safety systems, right.
00:34:53:00 - 00:35:12:13
Silas
It's never just one thing. So we're always creating a linkage or a or a system overall to create this, this anchor and system that supports 20 can in my mind. And so if I'm trying to create a 20, can't anchor out of pieces that are rated, by how they break, I'm going to overbuild it a little bit.
00:35:12:15 - 00:35:33:24
Silas
So I'm going to shoot for like 25 to 30 K in in my anchor based on the pieces and the materials. So if I have, say, three pieces that are rated for eight or more, CN, will I have my 24 plus can of my anchor. Right. The biggest pieces on my rack are rated from one like 12 can so, you know, two big pieces.
00:35:33:24 - 00:35:56:13
Silas
Yeah, that might be reasonable if they're secure enough in the rock so that we have strength and also the security. Right. By contrast, if we have a ice screw anchor of 210 K and ice screws which are 13cm or longer, we have a 20 can anchor, but they're also really secure in how they could be compromised. Right. You pull on that thing any direction, they're not going to move.
00:35:56:18 - 00:36:15:16
Silas
They're not going to pull out of the ice. So I've got a 20 Kate anchor with two ice screws. It's also very secure. Not very often. Is that the case that I put two cams in that are 20 k, n or more and very secure and getting pulled multiple directions. Right. So I'm trying to make an anchor that's that's both really strong and very secure.
00:36:15:19 - 00:36:40:18
Silas
So my my number in my head is like 25 ish k n by the ratings of the pieces. So that means three middle sized pieces eight k and or better. And if they're smaller than that say they are five K and pieces, six pieces. I'm probably using for them to build my anchor. Right. So I think that's kind of how we get to this idea of usually trap anchors are three pieces.
00:36:40:18 - 00:37:05:10
Silas
If they're small, they're for right. They're not usually two because they could be compromised by moving. So then if I think about lead climbing and hopefully this is helpful, if it's not, just stop me. If if I think of a lead climbing, I'm like, okay, well, how much force do I really create as a lead climber? Taking a fall because that UIA test is is kind of extreme, right?
00:37:05:10 - 00:37:29:03
Silas
It's an 80 kilogram load not moving at all. And is a 1.8 fall factor, which is pretty high. So okay, so let's look at like a real like real world lead falls. In talking to some friends that, our engineers, if I think about like 4 to 6 K am being like a, like a pretty significant lead fall.
00:37:29:06 - 00:37:48:27
Silas
I think we're probably. Well, what I what I think I know what I've, what I believe to be true, which again, is not based on actual hard data is that above 6KN is probably pretty hard to create on my body in a lead fall scenario. And above that, I'm probably gonna break stuff anyway. Like my hips, right?
00:37:48:27 - 00:38:09:00
Silas
Like our body starts breaking above much more in the six K. And so if I think about like 4 to 6 k and being a pretty sizable leader fall, and I factor in that poorly effect at the piece of gear because I'm multiplying it by two and the pulley effect at the piece, if it's 4 to 6 can of my body, the boy or feels the same, I'm doubling it.
00:38:09:00 - 00:38:17:00
Silas
The piece I kind of want like eight, 8 to 12 camps. Right? And so for me, that's
00:38:17:00 - 00:38:30:06
Silas
something I've been kind of coming back to recently is I kind of what, eight K in at the high point. And so if I don't have pieces that are that big, I might be nesting, I might be doubling up, in order to get 8KN.
00:38:30:06 - 00:38:40:25
Silas
So not just like very quickly in succession, but rather like combining them some way. So that they're getting pulled on the same time. Right. So they're sharing the load.
00:38:40:25 - 00:38:52:15
Silas
So, yeah, I mean, when I think about putting a and this is, this is like zero judgment at all about anything, it's this happened, with your accident.
00:38:52:15 - 00:39:09:05
Silas
But I think we have five camps. I'm like, whoa. Like, that starts to to give me a little bit of a red flag. In that, that piece, I could overpower that piece and and break it. And all of this, of course, is to say that that that rating that's on the piece is just the piece breaking.
00:39:09:05 - 00:39:25:07
Silas
We don't know exactly how it's going to break. It's just the manufacturer saying that it's going to like, that's the max it's going to hold. And of course, the interface of the piece in the rock or the piece of the ice or whatever it is, is probably oftentimes a limiting factor.
00:39:30:26 - 00:39:31:12
Silas
Yeah.
00:39:31:12 - 00:39:40:03
Silas
But carabiners is rated for 20 K in.
00:39:40:06 - 00:39:57:19
Silas
Yep yep for sure. That's. Yeah that's that's fair for sure. You know and then we talk about things like the carabiners being opened, like the gate being pushed against the rock, something like that. So I mean, that's, that's kind of like some of the things I think about a little bit,
00:39:57:19 - 00:40:26:04
Kyle
No, I like I like the mathematical side of it in terms of thinking of kilonewtons. It's like, let's, you know, the anchor, I think 20 Newtons for an anchor. That's that's a really cool point. And then, when it comes to nesting, you know, have you have you heard anecdotally of any like what actually happens during a fall when you have, like a piece that kind of holds and then pops and then you have the one right below it, like, is it lowering the amount of force on each sequential piece, or is it the same
00:40:27:07 - 00:40:55:06
Silas
Yeah, it's a good, good question. I don't have a lot of actual data. But what I do know has happened, not uncommonly. And what I worry about with placing small or marginal pieces, like, I basically don't place marginal gear. If I think it's marginal, I take it back out and I save it for later. And just like, admit to myself that it's not a good piece, you know,
00:40:55:06 - 00:41:07:18
Silas
so the risk and part of that is the risk of putting a marginal piece in, as your high point is that it may be good enough to elongate the rope, and then if it elongates the rope and fails, what happens to the rope
00:41:07:18 - 00:41:27:28
Silas
underneath that piece on the on the layer side is it will go into like a spiral, like a slinky style, right? Like that. A rope will just like oftentimes go in like this, like whipping, kind of spiraling, pattern. And it's not uncommon for that rope to get unclipped from the next piece, which could be a great piece.
00:41:27:28 - 00:41:46:27
Silas
Right. So, yeah, I mean, just very anecdotally, I talked to a friend, here last year and the gung who was climbing nearby, not not in the gangs, but nearby, and took repeated falls on this one piece that was pretty decent, went a little higher and put a piece that wasn't as good in the short in the fall.
00:41:46:27 - 00:42:18:04
Silas
And that exact thing happened, and it actually went even worse than that, where it was like basically the the good, the good high piece is being tested before got unclipped, the rope came tight on the next piece, which was not that great, I don't think, and pulled that piece. I don't know the exact details, but like essentially the person was hit the ground because of a combination of unclipped and then pieces pulling from, you know, the forces being higher at this point because the fall is bigger with pieces down lower that weren't as good.
00:42:18:06 - 00:42:19:20
Silas
So.
00:42:19:22 - 00:42:27:07
Silas
Yeah, I mean, weird things happen for sure.
00:42:27:10 - 00:42:30:01
Silas
Yeah.
00:42:30:03 - 00:42:52:03
Silas
Right. That I think, you know, I think that we need just keep in mind that we are creating a safety system. Right. Like, I was just thinking about this today. It's so common for people to that. I've seen clip one bolts and a two bolt anchor A either repelling multiple stations or going up and just clipping one bolt and not clipping the bolts together.
00:42:52:06 - 00:42:56:08
Silas
And I don't I don't quite get it.
00:42:56:10 - 00:42:56:25
Silas
Okay.
00:42:56:27 - 00:43:16:05
Silas
Let me there's no there's zero disadvantage with putting a small like a you know, a pre tied quad for example, was one of my favorites on two bolts and clipping the master point or focal point, whatever you want to call it. And weighing those both of both those pieces. Now you have strength and security and you have two anchor points.
00:43:16:08 - 00:43:41:00
Silas
And I get that one bolt is is obviously very strong most of the time. But it's also they're mechanical bolts, like, you don't know who put that bolt in. I seen bolts pull out. I pulled out bolts with my fingers. So to rely on one piece with the tolerances that are so small for it to potentially go bad when there's such an easy way to add that much more security kind of blows my mind.
00:43:41:02 - 00:44:01:27
Silas
And people will say, well, I hang on bolts all the time like I fall. I think lead falls on bolts all the time. So like, yes, but you're using several bolts in a row usually, right? It's not just you're waiting to happen. You're waiting the high piece. Of course. But you're you have a whole system of protection, hopefully on the pitch.
00:44:02:04 - 00:44:03:23
Silas
So.
00:44:04:25 - 00:44:20:26
Kyle
When it comes to this topic of of risk and kind of everything that we've talked about, do you feel like there are any essential items or habits that, you know, we could pick up this audience, this community could pick up and bring with them, to make kind of everybody around them safer,
00:44:22:26 - 00:44:40:18
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00:44:49:02 - 00:45:07:01
Silas
Maybe the biggest, the biggest and simplest thing to do is just to talk about it afterwards with your partner. Like, hey, how'd the day go for you? Where do you think you are most at risk day. Where do I think? Where do you think I was most at risk today? Anything you saw that you want to mention that maybe I didn't notice, right.
00:45:07:01 - 00:45:33:11
Silas
Like just a couple simple questions. You know, over, over a snack or a beer post climb could be super useful and is probably where we all can all learn the most, to be honest. You know, we learn a lot in the moment, in the field, but until we actually coalesce, set in our heads and think about it from a more objective stance, from someone else's perspective to hopefully, we're just not getting the full picture, right?
00:45:33:11 - 00:45:45:04
Silas
Like, we have our experience, of course, but we're just losing on so much perspective to not get a partner's feedback.
00:45:45:07 - 00:45:54:10
Silas
So.
00:45:54:12 - 00:46:23:05
Silas
Totally.
00:46:23:07 - 00:46:40:16
Silas
Yeah. I mean, I mean, I do a ton of guy training. I'm in the middle of a guy training course right now. And, you know, we we formalize this this a little bit more of the debriefing, but we also ask like, okay, like where were you most at risk today and where are you clients. Most at risk. And and that's an easy question to answer.
00:46:40:16 - 00:47:01:13
Silas
When the something big happened of course, but it's much harder to answer when it's very routine. And I think that that's where the gold is, like just in a, in a routine day that went pretty well. Like, okay, like, let's just keep tweaking, right? Like, how can we improve? How can we get the same result or better result with taking less risk?
00:47:01:15 - 00:47:03:23
Silas
No.
00:47:03:23 - 00:47:19:09
Kyle
people kind of searching for advice, trying to learn, obviously, mentorship is, I think, the best route. And I think that's something that you you stand by pretty strongly.
00:47:19:09 - 00:47:22:06
Kyle
What advice do you have for people finding and
00:47:24:14 - 00:47:48:08
Silas
Keep trying. Don't give up. Like if you. If you see someone. Do you want to be a mentor, mentee of, or want to mentor you? Just go ask him. I've got nothing to lose. You know, if you have something you can bring to the table, to offer them, that'd be really great, right? I mean, I've had, a, you know, a bunch of younger mentees here in the gangs, for example, that, can gain a lot for me.
00:47:48:08 - 00:48:11:12
Silas
I think, you know, just like, overall perspective wise, some have been guides, so, like, the business side of things, skills in that, in that regard, you know, but they climbed harder than I did. So it's a really nice, like, symbiotic relationship if you've got a rope gun. But I can help. I can help them, you know, navigate some of the things that they might not have quite figured out as much yet.
00:48:12:09 - 00:48:17:13
Kyle
situation. I would imagine that most of the people seeking mentorship are probably, beginner
00:48:19:01 - 00:48:20:29
Silas
Maybe.
00:48:20:29 - 00:48:31:13
Kyle
you know, you're trying to find a mentor and that you're. I mean, I would say, you know, depending on who you are, you know, to be a mentor for somebody else is I think, you know, something that you also, say is extremely important for the community.
00:48:31:13 - 00:48:43:01
Kyle
And I totally agree. But it is asking, I think, a lot from, from somebody in a way. You know, you're it depending on how different your skill levels are, you know, you're asking them to to take you out. I think there's a lot of.
00:48:44:07 - 00:48:46:09
Kyle
It's a lot to ask. So, yeah, it's it
00:48:47:26 - 00:49:11:09
Silas
Yeah. I mean, I think there's room for everyone to be a mentor and a mentor to you at the same time through their whole career. And, you know, it might be subtle things. It may not be. There may not be a huge split in ability, between the two people you're partner with. Right. But every partner you have has strengths that you may not have, or, you know, have expertise in one area.
00:49:11:11 - 00:49:21:08
Silas
And every part that you have has, things that you can help them with. So, I think it's.
00:49:21:10 - 00:49:35:20
Silas
If you're looking for it and understand kind of how it works, I think that it can happen much more naturally than a lot of people think. It doesn't have to be like this one, like guru that's showing you the way it can be lots of little things.
00:49:35:20 - 00:49:44:21
Kyle
skills. And I think the big thing that happens is when the disparity is too large between the skill sets, then it's more one giving to the other then kind of this symbiotic trade of, of
00:49:45:12 - 00:50:05:20
Silas
Yeah. And and I mean, you know, like, I'm a full time climbing guide and, and I view a lot of my days out as being a mentor, largely. And they're giving me money, and I'm giving them my opinion and expertise and, and guidance, you know, whether I'm where I'm actually leading, the rope team or I'm teaching them how to lead themselves, or any other combination.
00:50:05:20 - 00:50:07:13
Kyle
Nice.
00:50:07:15 - 00:50:34:27
Kyle
Okay. So kind of like, you know, switching this topic towards kind of the guiding aspect of it. I'm interested in the AMG Association. I'm interested in the culture of guiding in America. I want to kind of dive into this kind of topic. So what would you say the current state of the guiding industry is in the US in comparison to that of Europe?
00:50:36:14 - 00:50:43:28
Silas
I think largely in the US, it's growing, and I think I don't know exactly in, in Europe as much, but I think.
00:50:44:05 - 00:50:47:16
Silas
Like the state of the guiding industry overall.
00:50:47:16 - 00:51:11:16
Kyle
and this might be totally misplaced, but it seems like almost like a fringe career. Like there's not a lot of glory, unfortunately. You know, like, I'd say it's stereotype. Not very financially compensating, especially for somebody in the beginning stages of it. A big barrier price wise, to get into it. You know, you really have to be super passionate about what you're doing in order to make it successful.
00:51:11:22 - 00:51:31:14
Kyle
And it seems like, the guiding industry in Europe is a bit more, glorified. It's governmental supported. It's there's there's a culture behind it. I think guides are a bit more revered. There's a lot more, traffic in terms of, you know, clients and income. I guess I'm curious is to like, is is that true?
00:51:31:14 - 00:51:37:05
Kyle
Is there like, a difference in the culture between the two countries? And do you feel like, you know, you said we're growing. Do you feel like we're
00:51:40:01 - 00:52:02:27
Speaker 2
I think everything you said is probably is true. I mean, it's very much professionalized. In the European, a lot of the European countries, and that's, that's largely just the culture in general, I think. So, I mean, you know, people waiting tables, they're make a living wage and guys make a living wage. It's it's often seasonal for guys there.
00:52:02:27 - 00:52:31:24
Speaker 2
But yeah, it's like everything every worker there and a lot of the European countries that I've traveled in Switzerland and France, as far as I know, and I'm not an expert, are making a better living wage than, whether you're in a blue collar job or not, you could make a living wage there and you're required to be licensed as a guide in France and Switzerland, and Italy and.
00:52:31:27 - 00:52:49:00
Speaker 2
That's just not true in the US, right? I mean, like, you know, whether it's, I mean, waiting tables here, you're getting a pretty nominal wage and you're relying on tips a lot. A lot of blue collar jobs don't pay a living wage. So I think it's, I think it's just generally like a cultural problem as much as anything else.
00:52:49:28 - 00:53:16:12
Speaker 2
And, and guiding is a, is a blue collar job that, you know, depending on where you work and how skilled you are and the work you want to do, you can you can make a living doing it. It's not going to be, you know, a really extravagant lifestyle, but it is it is possible. But it's going to take a ton of effort, and it's going to probably mean traveling at least part of the year.
00:53:16:14 - 00:53:22:05
Speaker 2
And it's going to mean working a lot. And, and it's dangerous.
00:53:22:07 - 00:53:23:17
Speaker 1
So.
00:53:23:19 - 00:53:42:17
Speaker 2
I, I don't know where the industry is exactly going except that more people want to go climbing, which is, it's getting more and more popular all the time. So I do think that's good for guides in general. And many areas don't require guide certification and training, but I think it's largely.
00:53:43:12 - 00:54:09:21
Speaker 2
Very helpful for guides to go through that training, both from a risk management perspective and client experience perspective, but also just from a sustainability perspective, like trying to make this work, financially is super helpful to be more highly trained.
00:54:09:24 - 00:54:28:04
Speaker 2
And that's that's a good question. I don't remember saying that exactly, but, I do I do think that largely we view it as like only beginners, higher guides. And in contrast, like you're saying in Europe, that's not the case. Like if you go in the mountains in Europe, you just hire a guide. That's just what you do.
00:54:28:06 - 00:54:45:15
Speaker 2
Unless you're a very skilled, and full time climber in your own right. If you're going to go backcountry skiing, the hiring guides is just absolute routine. Like, you're literally paying a professional to help mitigate and manage the risk for you and know and know where the good snow is, for example. Right.
00:54:46:15 - 00:54:53:29
Speaker 2
And I think in the US, it's much more of a just a do it yourself mentality. Like a lot of people do their own plumbing. And why are their own houses right.
00:54:54:21 - 00:55:21:18
Speaker 2
So there's some pride in doing it ourselves. So I think it's just, again, part of the culture overall. But I do think that, you know, as, as there are more guides and more highly skilled guides that have a variety of offerings that there's huge benefit to, to a lot of different, climbers at different stages of the career to hire guides and gain a lot of knowledge and experience and just become more well-rounded.
00:55:21:20 - 00:55:39:26
Speaker 2
I think, well, yeah, I think, I think, you know, for, for a lot of climbers like, once they reach a certain level of expertise, technically it's just a way to say like, cool, like, I've got enough of those skills. Now I want to go push the grade right? Like I've got I've got the skills I need to go do the things I want.
00:55:39:26 - 00:55:42:18
Speaker 2
So it's it's good. Like I'm, it's good enough.
00:55:43:11 - 00:55:46:15
Speaker 2
And whether that's conscious or not, I don't know exactly, but.
00:55:47:13 - 00:56:07:06
Speaker 2
I think it's a lot of room to, to grow for all of us as climbers. And I think that the minute we stop trying to develop and become more well-rounded, we should be really careful that it breeds complacency.
00:56:07:08 - 00:56:13:19
Speaker 2
I mean, at this, I don't know, but I think at this point, I don't I don't know what it is for lots of different guides. But for me, at this.
00:56:13:19 - 00:56:14:28
Speaker 1
Point,
00:56:15:00 - 00:56:22:29
Speaker 2
My clientele is super varied. I have people that are, you know, families that bring kids that are just starting out or just trying to have a good, a good weekend.
00:56:23:25 - 00:56:35:01
Speaker 2
I have people that are learning to lead. I have people that are pushing the grade from five nine. They want to go into five, ten, five, 11 on lead. I have folks that are rock climbers that want to go alpine climbing.
00:56:36:00 - 00:56:46:19
Speaker 2
I have, you know, very experienced climbers that that climb ten days a year that just want to keep climbing and following, big roots with its rock roots, alpine roots or ice roots.
00:56:47:15 - 00:57:11:29
Speaker 2
And I do a bunch of, of guide training as well for the IMG. So, my clientele, it's really very varied. Yep. For sure. Which makes it really fun. I feel like trying to figure out how to have a really amazing experience for that person on that day, is the art of the whole thing, like where I go with somebody and what we focus on and how we orchestrate the day is the most fun part of.
00:57:11:29 - 00:57:27:06
Speaker 2
All right? Like all the technical skills, all the interpersonal skills, the experience is really just a means to an end to be able to take someone and be like, okay, we're gonna do this today because this is going to be perfect for you right now.
00:57:27:06 - 00:57:52:20
Speaker 2
Do you feel like there's a marketing issue with us guiding and like not reaching the audience and having people understand what the benefits are and what the experience is like. Because at least like a social media and even the internet. I'd say most of the representation for guides is like anchor building videos and, like tech tips and stuff, which I think are extremely valuable.
00:57:52:20 - 00:57:56:06
Speaker 2
But it it almost doesn't even do the experience any
00:57:58:23 - 00:57:59:13
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:57:59:16 - 00:58:00:05
Speaker 2
I couldn't agree.
00:58:00:05 - 00:58:02:13
Speaker 1
More.
00:58:02:16 - 00:58:09:08
Speaker 2
I couldn't agree more. Yeah. We need we need a better marketing department. But no, it. I think you're right. Like the,
00:58:09:08 - 00:58:25:07
Speaker 2
to be honest, like the tech tip stuff on Instagram. While I do participate in it some because people love that stuff, it does a disservice to the whole industry. It it really it focuses on the techniques or the tools that are fun and sexy and like concrete.
00:58:25:10 - 00:58:43:07
Speaker 2
But man, they're just means to an end. Like making good decisions about what to do, when and where to go is what it's all about. And so it really does, in my opinion, dub it down quite a bit. And does a disservice to really what the job is, in my opinion.
00:58:43:07 - 00:58:58:26
Speaker 2
Like we could better. How do you feel? Like the association could better represent themselves. Like, is there like a, like a film that needs to be made or like, is do you guys need to be more content creators while also being guides while guiding
00:58:59:23 - 00:59:18:27
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I feel like it's the same question that every small business or entrepreneur has to master, or solopreneur has to deal with is like, okay, the first step is to get really good at your craft, and then you gotta get really good at telling people that you're really good at your craft. Right?
00:59:18:27 - 00:59:36:13
Speaker 2
Like so there's some disconnect there. And I think, I mean, I, you know, it's obviously throwing a bunch of money at something often yields good results in any kind of context. But it's just an industry where we don't, you know, nobody makes a lot of money. There's not a lot of, margin for profit.
00:59:37:23 - 00:59:52:04
Speaker 2
And a lot of it goes back into investing in a better product, for all of us. So, you know, you can't fault you can't fault anyone for doing that. And, boy, it would be really helpful if we had.
00:59:52:26 - 01:00:01:11
Speaker 2
A really, you know, more nuanced and, I don't know, professional and advanced.
01:00:01:13 - 01:00:03:10
Speaker 1
PR
01:00:04:10 - 01:00:10:07
Speaker 2
Interesting. What about, like, the opinion that you have about
01:00:10:07 - 01:00:27:11
Speaker 2
recreational climbers or climbing influencers sharing their safety systems on social media? Do you feel like that? Obviously it's free country. People can do whatever they want. But do you feel like that is a net positive or negative for the community? And do you feel like that information should be reserved for guides
01:00:28:02 - 01:00:53:07
Speaker 2
Oh, I think I think it's net positive for sure. I mean, the the amount of information and and, you know, real data may not be like a great sample size sometimes of data or testing, but the amount of data that's out there now is absolutely mind boggling. I mean, I mean, I learn new things all the time about certain systems or tests that were done.
01:00:53:09 - 01:01:22:24
Speaker 2
And 25 years ago, we didn't have any of that, like a, you know, a one page paper would come out that someone pulled some things that they broke and we're like, oh, man, that is so cool. And like, that stuff happens all the time now. So I think, I think it's net positive for sure. And at the same time, kind of like I was saying a minute ago, I think is sometimes the techniques and tools that an absolute red herring like, it's just like it's like, you know, squirrel.
01:01:22:27 - 01:01:36:11
Speaker 2
It's like, oh yeah, cool. Like another sexy tool that'll solve the problem. It's like, oh, I mean, I love tools, like, I love technology. And even the techniques are a step in the right direction, but.
01:01:37:07 - 01:01:55:15
Speaker 2
That's not what it's about. It's about the judgment piece for me. And so I, like I did a, a training webinar. I've done it a couple times now it's on my YouTube channel or I introduced this framework I called a your map framework. You are map. And it's, so it's a universal rubric for mountain adventure progression.
01:01:55:18 - 01:02:12:26
Speaker 2
It's super dorky, but it says it spells your map like it's like it's your map. And I think, you know, despite the acronym, how we feel about the acronym, the content there is really good where it's basically starts from, in my view, like a much more 30,000ft view and the has five layers. And the pinnacle of this is like
01:02:12:26 - 01:02:15:18
Speaker 2
the last thing you choose is the tools.
01:02:15:20 - 01:02:38:09
Speaker 2
And if you work down from that, it goes tools. Well from the base it goes team terrain, timing techniques and tools. And so you're working up from like thinking about where your team, who's on your team, where are you going to go when you'll go there. And then from there developing, okay, which techniques do I need to understand and know how to do?
01:02:38:11 - 01:02:53:17
Speaker 2
And from the techniques I work into, the tools that I'll actually bring, right. Like what's in my backpack. So what's in my backpack is like the last thing I think about planning any kind of adventure and the techniques I'm going to use and need to develop to go have the adventure. Or the second to last thing I think about.
01:02:53:19 - 01:02:55:29
Speaker 2
Meanwhile, the whole base of this pyramid.
01:02:56:13 - 01:03:11:21
Speaker 2
The timing of when to be there, both in a macro sense, in a micro sense, the terrain I'm going to be in. But I want to want to actually be in and is appropriate. And the team I'm with as much more, much more important in the grand scheme of things. I think
01:03:11:21 - 01:03:17:07
Speaker 2
if you if you blow those bottom layers about who you're with or where you go or when you go there, doesn't matter.
01:03:17:07 - 01:03:19:29
Speaker 2
Like what you know or what you bring in your backpack, it's just not.
01:03:19:29 - 01:03:21:20
Speaker 1
Going to work. Right?
01:03:21:23 - 01:03:38:08
Speaker 2
So, yeah, there's a whole like, whatever hour to two hour webinar that I'm talking about that, that, concept in that format. And I think it's pretty useful. Yeah, that's the social media thing is, is, it's a double edged sword for sure.
01:03:42:26 - 01:03:50:12
Speaker 1
Yes.
01:03:50:14 - 01:04:21:13
Speaker 2
Totally. And that's the thing, like. Right. It's like it's always black or white. Do this or do that. And the reality is like, there's no context for what we're showing here. It's like, yes, this technique can absolutely work. You know, maybe 2% of the time when these factors or these parameters are met. But let's be honest, like that's like a very that's like the if I pull out my, my tool bag, my toolbox, that's like the T20 seven Torx bit that I'm going to use once a year.
01:04:21:13 - 01:04:29:01
Speaker 2
It's not like the flathead screwdriver or the number two. Phillips. Right, that I use every single day, all the time, you know, day after day. So.
01:04:30:15 - 01:04:44:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, I the social media piece about like, what we're all focused on and how much attention that deserves is totally skewed. It's really it's kind of amazing to me at least.
01:04:44:17 - 01:05:10:16
Speaker 2
about, the the thought behind, like, constantly trying to improve our systems or to be at time, like, to the pinnacle edge of what's best versus what? Just using what works. And something that we're familiar with and something that's tried and true for us. Like, do you feel like there's kind of, like a pitfall or a trap to constantly changing our systems and the effort to make it better versus just
01:05:11:27 - 01:05:30:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, totally. I mean, it it's a double edged sword. I think a good place to start is like, basically, you should be able to solve, you know, a particular problem in two ways. Like to start, let's just start by solving any problem with two different ways. And if you can do that, you're off to a good start.
01:05:31:17 - 01:05:55:12
Speaker 2
And so, you know, we all have learned a way to do to do the things we do because of whoever taught us or whatever we saw. And, you know, patterns and habits are super helpful in some ways to, to shortcut, you know, human heuristics, right? Like to shortcut the thought process about how to do something. But the reality is like nothing works all the time really well.
01:05:55:14 - 01:06:21:00
Speaker 2
So it's I mean, you know, learn from good people is a really good place to start. And if you invest early on learning from people that are well-rounded and savvy and, and good teachers, then you'll be set up for life. So to me, it's it's less about the particulars, about how someone might do something and more about why.
01:06:21:03 - 01:06:41:19
Speaker 2
Like, I want people to have a few choices so they can choose the right tool for the right job. That's what we call application, right? Like, use the right thing in the right place because you have a good reason for it. Like if you're just using the same thing in this and all the places all the time, because that's the only thing you know well, and that's you can do it that way.
01:06:41:21 - 01:06:52:15
Speaker 2
You know, a lot of people lead their whole lives doing things that way. But to me, I think we can do we can do better. And as an.
01:06:52:17 - 01:06:59:03
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Right. And I mean. Nothing is the best all the time.
01:06:59:05 - 01:07:01:11
Speaker 1
So.
01:07:01:11 - 01:07:17:09
Speaker 2
to have two, two systems for each problem, I'm sure there's going to be some sort of hybridizing that happens at a certain point where you've got the specific scenario that pulls, you know, a lesson from here and a lesson from here and a lesson from here. And you're like, okay, let me oh, wow, I can link these all together and solve this problem in this kind of new way.
01:07:17:09 - 01:07:18:29
Speaker 2
And now you have this new skill set that you built.
01:07:19:12 - 01:07:46:25
Speaker 2
Totally. And that's and that's what I like my whole theory about when I teach anything in climbing or otherwise, is that I want people to understand the, the concepts and what they're trying to do, what they're trying to achieve. And you know what the problem, what problem I'm trying to solve is really helpful a lot of times, because then if you understand the concept, you, you can, you can apply different tools in different ways and use different techniques to accomplish the same end result.
01:07:46:28 - 01:07:47:06
Speaker 1
And.
01:07:47:06 - 01:08:11:05
Speaker 2
You can over time, as you gain more experience, you start to see more nuance in situations where you see like the this stance is different or this is that way or this way, or the rope line lies here today. And so as you, as you start to see more nuance and, understand more through your experience, you can start applying the concepts in a more advanced way.
01:08:11:08 - 01:08:30:06
Speaker 2
If you just learn how to do something one way and don't understand the why or the concepts behind it, of course you're going to do the same thing all the time because that's all you know. Like you just know that's that's what sila said to do. So I'm going to do it that way. When the reality is like, boy, like you might not have your blade of ice, right?
01:08:30:06 - 01:08:37:10
Speaker 2
Or you might have a shorter rope, or you might have a core shot in your rope. And so conceptualizing, if you think.
01:08:37:10 - 01:08:38:29
Speaker 1
About,
01:08:39:01 - 01:08:58:00
Speaker 2
Like it like layers or progression of learning something, conceptualizing is the second stage of five. So the first being like memorization where I cram for my exam and by next week it's gone. Like not useful long term. Well, if I can conceptualize, that's the next step. So I see something like for me it'd be like I can see a car engine.
01:08:58:02 - 01:09:20:17
Speaker 2
And I know conceptually how an internal combustion engine works. I like I get it, but I couldn't do the third stage, which is rebuilding a car engine and making it run. Let's see, application phase. And then what you're suggesting is like, okay, like I'm in the application phase of this particular skill, and I actually know it so well now that I actually could use this skill in a different way, like in a new way.
01:09:20:19 - 01:09:41:20
Speaker 2
I hadn't seen before, like maybe I know how to back up. I repel the process and now I have to all of a sudden climb the rope and I'm like, like, what do I know that could grab the rope? Oh, a prosthetic, right. So you're generalizing that skill to a new scenario, and then the tip of the the tip of the pyramid in this case would be, creating a new way of doing something for you, like, without input.
01:09:41:22 - 01:09:57:18
Speaker 2
Right. So it may not be new to the industry. And this happens all the time, like people come up with the same end result of a new way of doing something. And parallel, you know, kind of in tandem in different parts of the country or different parts of the world. As they get more experience and gain more expertise.
01:09:57:20 - 01:10:12:17
Speaker 2
So my, my whole goal is like, look, don't memorize what I'm telling you to do and the way I'm telling you to do it, that's a start you have to mimic, of course. But really, I want you to understand the next level, which is why are we doing this? And what were the principles that I'm trying to convey?
01:10:12:19 - 01:10:27:05
Speaker 2
And then if we can do that, over time, you'll be able to go to the third stage, which is applying it and applying it well, and then maybe generalizing and systematizing from there. So.
01:10:35:08 - 01:10:45:20
Speaker 1
How do we.
01:10:45:23 - 01:11:10:20
Speaker 2
Totally. Absolutely. I mean and that's kind of what I was trying to get at with the, with the gear piece. Right. Is like like why do I need pieces to be this certain size or this strength. So I that's, that's kind of my style is I try to explain as well as I understand it, which hopefully is right or right enough, in a way that conveys conveys why we're trying to do something.
01:11:10:20 - 01:11:12:25
Speaker 2
What's the problem? Or trying to solve?
01:11:12:27 - 01:11:20:27
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:11:20:29 - 01:11:24:03
Speaker 2
We can keep we can keep rolling for a little while if you want. It's all good.
01:11:25:18 - 01:11:28:03
Speaker 2
I guess I'll. I'm already here, so I'll cover this topic and see
01:11:34:03 - 01:11:39:16
Speaker 2
Excellent.
01:11:39:18 - 01:11:46:29
Speaker 2
Oh, my gosh, this is this is so perfect. I've never actually had, like, a real honest conversation about. This is great.
01:11:46:29 - 01:12:03:27
Speaker 2
Samuel Greek rapping this year, last year. And I was nervous as hell because of the stigma about how dangerous it is. And I kind of like, you know, was kind of a firm believer in just don't do it right. I met a person who I trust and I've climbed with before, and he, you know, introduced me to it.
01:12:03:27 - 01:12:23:07
Speaker 2
And I expressed concern. So we tethered to each other for the first time. And that was like enough, you know, conceptualizing, managing the risk of like, okay, you know, there's a balance of counterbalance. And if we're tethered, then, okay, at least we can't go flying off the other ends will tie knots and let's do it. And so, we wrapped off Cloud Tower and, did our first time over Europe.
01:12:23:07 - 01:12:39:12
Speaker 2
And, that was kind of my first experience for it went great. Then I kind of started, to adopt it on my own. And I have a few select partners that I choose to do it with. One of them, his name is Bryce, and I feel like we've just gotten it down to such a science.
01:12:39:15 - 01:12:59:16
Speaker 2
And there's the one thing that I really, really love about similarity grouping is the teamwork. I love the communication. I love that you're doing something together. Like there's. That communication's okay. Are we both connected? Boom. We clip our suite. One, two, three. Take away the Gregory's. Okay, cool. We're system check, you know, take off the quick, draw on the bolts.
01:12:59:21 - 01:13:18:24
Speaker 2
Take off our pieces. One, two, three. We wait, go over the edge, and it's like we work together. We get down to the bottom. One, two, three. We clipper double back the bolts, and then we're like one, two, three on the system. And so it's like this constant communication and teamwork and this like duality of experience that we're going through in this repel, that I love.
01:13:19:01 - 01:13:23:01
Speaker 2
Rather than it just being like bi okay down and then like, okay, hey what's up? You know, it's like
01:13:25:16 - 01:13:29:27
Speaker 1
Share this.
01:13:29:27 - 01:13:37:19
Speaker 2
I'll use like Rainbow Wall, for example. We, it's 1000ft wall, and we wrapped the entire thing in 30 minutes.
01:13:37:22 - 01:13:52:26
Speaker 2
And it's just like, I, I'm sure they're systems. And I'd love to hear, you know, your advice on how to achieve such a fast repel in a different way. But, yeah, that's that's my experience of Samuel Kruger rapping and why I, I personally enjoy it so much is
01:13:55:21 - 01:13:58:02
Speaker 1
One.
01:13:58:02 - 01:13:59:13
Speaker 2
I ride street bikes, I'm a climber.
01:13:59:13 - 01:14:08:28
Speaker 2
I would say risk is kind of like, something I'm comfortable in and it's just a matter of like, I, I at least I feel like I understand the risks and,
01:14:12:11 - 01:14:13:29
Speaker 1
Sure. Yeah.
01:14:14:01 - 01:14:26:07
Speaker 2
It's great. So I'm going to I'm going to start with some questions. So let's just take, rainbow wall. I mean, so.
01:14:26:09 - 01:14:36:22
Speaker 2
How steep is the terrain? Super vertical. Right.
01:14:36:24 - 01:14:42:20
Speaker 1
Yep.
01:14:42:23 - 01:14:43:19
Speaker 1
Great.
01:14:43:21 - 01:15:00:22
Speaker 2
And what were all the anchors? Okay. And with the any with there any edges or, like, weird configuration of the terrain, or was it just, like, pretty much a planar wall?
01:15:00:24 - 01:15:01:22
Speaker 2
Great.
01:15:02:19 - 01:15:33:09
Speaker 2
Cool. And it's pretty big. Thousand feet. Okay, so let's let's talk mechanics for a minute. So the things I mean look, big picture. Is it an appropriate technique at times. Yes. It can be totally appropriate. So I don't have a problem with with it used properly. But if I go back to my what I was saying a minute ago, which is application is using the right technique at the right time.
01:15:33:11 - 01:15:57:26
Speaker 2
Right? So there are times and situations where saying reply makes zero sense and might even be a really, really bad choice. So I think Rainbow Wall is actually, if I were to think about, you know, where I might actually think it was a good idea, that's one of the best ones I can think of as an example, because as you said, it's very steep.
01:15:57:28 - 01:16:14:12
Speaker 2
There aren't any sharp edges. You're pretty much fall line rappelling right on bolted anchors, and you're only going like 30 or 35m each row. Right. And so the mechanics of it.
01:16:14:14 - 01:16:30:10
Speaker 2
You're you're first, you're putting twice as much force on the anchor. Right? So if I'm using anchors anywhere that are not bolts, I'm asking why. I mean, but.
01:16:30:13 - 01:16:39:28
Speaker 2
Right. Or you know, so if you're alpine climbing this is like the wrong choice. If you're adventure climbing, this is the wrong choice, right? So you have twice as.
01:16:39:28 - 01:16:41:07
Speaker 1
Much,
01:16:41:09 - 01:17:12:00
Speaker 2
Force on the anchors and you have twice as much force on each strand. And so the way ropes often get core shot, is with a tension rope over an edge, right? Rappelling. And so if you have twice as much force on each strand, it's much more likely you're going to get a core shot. So in my, my, it's kind of wild that we've moved to skinnier and skinnier and skinnier ropes, but we're putting twice as much force on than we ever have repelling.
01:17:13:00 - 01:17:36:00
Speaker 2
So so those are reasons that I don't think it's great. Mechanically. What I do like about it is that, well, the reasons I think that we do it more often now are, are a couple things. One, the the common use of the Grigory, like everyone has Grigory is now no one used to use Gregory's in multi pitch climbing like 15 years ago.
01:17:36:06 - 01:17:59:04
Speaker 2
No one did that. So people are really comfortable and good. And this is part of I'll get you in a minute. Like if we're better and more comfortable at doing something, we're going to tend to do that faster and and more often. So like if I'm a snow shower and I'm learning to ski and I go to the top of the mountain and I take two turns on my skis, and I fall down, and I fall down and I fall down.
01:17:59:04 - 01:18:13:05
Speaker 2
I'm like, this is total bullshit. Like I'm slipping my snowshoes back on. Yeah, of course, this is like, awful. I was falling down the mountain. I can walk down this hill and it will probably be faster to walk down the mountain with my snowshoes the first time. Now, the 100th day I go skiing. Skis are clearly the choice, right?
01:18:13:05 - 01:18:33:07
Speaker 2
They're gonna be way faster because I'm better at it. And so we just have to realize that we get really fast and good and figure out of the the nuances and intricacies of the systems we use a lot. Right? So everyone knows how to take a Gregory off their harness, open it, take the rope out and load it back on the harness.
01:18:33:07 - 01:18:55:23
Speaker 2
Right. Like that's just like so fluid and natural. It's wicked fast. Right? And if you compare it to using an ATC to repel with. Well, if you haven't done that before, it's just not gonna be as fast. So that's part of the speed conversation for me. So everyone's got like Gregory, everyone's used to playing with the Gregory. Repelling the Gregory is like the next logical step.
01:18:55:25 - 01:19:03:18
Speaker 2
And so they're pretty fast at it. So I like I don't think it's there's anything wrong with repelling something like Rainbow Wall.
01:19:03:20 - 01:19:03:27
Speaker 1
You know.
01:19:03:27 - 01:19:18:06
Speaker 2
The system should be closed either way. But I do think we should be aware that we're putting twice as much force in the anchors, and we're putting twice as much, force on each strand, and that there are times that that's just inappropriate. Right?
01:19:19:16 - 01:19:23:23
Speaker 2
the biggest thing is the fact that it's both people at risk instead of one.
01:19:24:11 - 01:19:49:15
Speaker 2
Totally. Yeah. For sure. So, you know, and, the more commonplace use of closing the rope system with rope with knots in the end has made this a more, a safer endeavor than it used to be. Clipping together with a tether of some kind. Is a is a good move. There's certain terrain that it wouldn't work very well.
01:19:49:15 - 01:19:53:15
Speaker 2
Right? Sometimes it's like a pretty fine, like, one single repel line.
01:19:54:23 - 01:20:12:08
Speaker 2
So you clipping together is a pretty good idea. You can also use a blocking. Not like a rope. Shinier style repel so that at least one person is set up with a blocking knot. Yeah, it could be for sure. And then so.
01:20:12:08 - 01:20:17:23
Speaker 2
So. So if I look at the time savings, I think that when people say, oh, man, it's really fast.
01:20:17:26 - 01:20:37:28
Speaker 2
I think that all those things combined to make it faster. They're really fast with the set up, because I've done it a bunch and just the mechanics of it. Gregory. Now, where I think you're you lose time is the fact that you oftentimes, especially if you're in the wrong type of terrain for it, you actually have to propel a little bit slower, right?
01:20:37:28 - 01:20:54:07
Speaker 2
Because you're just like you're conscious of your part. Your partner also weight in the rope. So if I get to stand up or if it's not very planar terrain, planar terrain in a very straight fall line, that's steep, it's going to be more awkward. I have to stand up. If I have to do a long rappelling, manage more rope on ledges.
01:20:54:07 - 01:21:36:08
Speaker 2
Like that's just not a good setup. Where if I'm on waiting, we both have to wait together every 20 to 50ft and manage rope and throw rope and lean back at the same time. Like that just makes zero sense. It definitely won't save time there. So that and then we if we look at the whole equation in general, like the overall time management equation of descending, say the rainbow wall again, I think if we put a stopwatch thing like a chess timer, like a stopwatch on the pieces of the equation where you're actually literally sliding down the rope relative to the transition at each anchor, I think that we would be surprised
01:21:36:08 - 01:21:42:07
Speaker 2
at how that time management works out. I think.
01:21:42:09 - 01:21:51:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, and.
01:21:51:07 - 01:21:52:28
Speaker 1
Yeah, totally.
01:21:52:28 - 01:21:56:26
Speaker 2
you know, do the same thing with the same old Gregor app and see exactly what's faster.
01:21:56:26 - 01:21:58:00
Speaker 2
I would think it would be hilarious.
01:21:58:14 - 01:22:00:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. Sorry.
01:22:00:06 - 01:22:19:18
Speaker 2
Sorry. So I just think it's like it's just a technique and I just don't think it's the it's the founder or techniques that it's kind of become like. I think the first technique that everyone should learn is how to make a retriever repel with with a placket with a, with a tube style plate device. Right.
01:22:20:19 - 01:22:26:03
Speaker 2
advanced technique and you need to like like you said, some people are going up these routes without an ATC and I don't agree
01:22:27:10 - 01:22:29:26
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's.
01:22:29:26 - 01:22:35:14
Speaker 2
honestly I don't like toppling with the Gregory. I hate the the sag in the in the system.
01:22:35:14 - 01:22:52:23
Speaker 2
I want to be able to go hands free. And so, I use a tube style device because I love the, the locking mechanism of it and like, yeah, if, if for some reason, you know, we can't simul Gregor up. I want to be able to use the tube style device with the, with the press, I can and have that resort to kind of go back to if I need
01:22:52:23 - 01:23:21:08
Speaker 2
for sure. And I mean, the you know, the next part of it is like, well, if something happens to somebody and someone gets injured or is unreliable, unconscious or unreliable like that same word politics, it's not going to work. Right? So a tandem repel is much more appropriate and will work really well, which is one, tube style device, you know, regular belay plate with two people hanging off a spider, like two different tethers to the same device.
01:23:21:10 - 01:23:33:22
Speaker 2
And then you still have two people on two strands of rope, but it's similar weight to what you would have with the similar setup. In terms of the anchor and on the each strand versus if I do.
01:23:35:06 - 01:24:03:02
Speaker 2
The reef senior style where I block and not and I'm doing a Tanner repel with a Gregory on one strand. Now I'm doubling down. I'm quadrupling the weight on that one strand versus a regular repel, which is really asking to get your rope core shot. So I think in terms of, like, you know, if things go sideways, having a HTC style device and being able to tan repel is much more appropriate and useful.
01:24:03:02 - 01:24:07:06
Speaker 2
personal or anecdotal experience of of ropes being cut during repel?
01:24:08:02 - 01:24:11:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, for sure.
01:24:11:15 - 01:24:12:29
Speaker 2
Yeah, a few times for sure.
01:24:13:01 - 01:24:16:26
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:24:16:29 - 01:24:28:29
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Myself I mean not not getting cut in half but core shot in for sure. Yeah. Usually you pull it down you're like oh great.
01:24:28:29 - 01:24:31:07
Speaker 1
Wow. Yeah.
01:24:31:07 - 01:24:39:27
Speaker 2
And it's kind of like what do you think was a good error in judgment and where you place the rope as you rappelled down or just kind of like a, like what was your analysis
01:24:40:03 - 01:24:51:18
Speaker 2
It can, it can be like a client falling off the fall line. Like not being as delicate getting into the fall line with a sharp edge around it can be. Yeah. A poorly positioned anchor.
01:24:51:20 - 01:24:51:25
Speaker 1
That.
01:24:51:25 - 01:25:18:21
Speaker 2
Just has an edge. That's just not great. It can be a pinch of rock that kind of next down into, like, a V groove that the rope gets sucked down into. I, I had somebody come through that was soloing one time, ice climbing, and, decided to put their rope on top of my rope and the rapid link and then repel down, to the same light as on and proceed to pull their rope over my rope and almost burn it in half.
01:25:19:14 - 01:25:22:26
Speaker 2
We're, you know, we were anchored at that point and then on the next ledge below. But.
01:25:23:22 - 01:25:29:16
Speaker 2
You know, the I mean, rope ropes do get do get caught shot and do get nicked and cut.
01:25:30:24 - 01:25:34:18
Speaker 2
Don't usually break, but they can get cut.
01:25:34:18 - 01:25:45:21
Speaker 2
you know, we always talk about climbing. We talk about redundancy. And, you know, I, I'd say, you know, I've had some comments on Instagram from European climbers. You're like, where's your other rope? You know, like, where's
01:25:46:20 - 01:25:48:10
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:25:48:10 - 01:25:51:20
Speaker 2
climb with single ropes? And we you know, it's so funny.
01:25:51:25 - 01:26:15:09
Speaker 2
We talk about redundancy and we'll scream at somebody for, you know, not clipping, you know, two bolts for a rappel or whatever the, the, the, the situation of redundancy is. But when we all climb with single ropes and we use them as tethers and it's no one bats and like, do you see sort of kind of a hypocrisy there or like do you are you an advocate for twin rope systems, like what are your thoughts
01:26:16:05 - 01:26:38:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I think I, I think all, all the rope systems have the right, right application, the right time and place to use them. Whether it be twin, half or single and and the choices of ropes we have now is, is pretty astounding. And then the desire to have a skinnier, a lighter rope all the time is really kind of amazing.
01:26:38:02 - 01:26:44:29
Speaker 2
And so I yeah, I've heard certainly of ropes, you know, more ropes getting cut in the last five years than I had my whole career.
01:26:45:01 - 01:26:45:15
Speaker 1
Probably.
01:26:45:15 - 01:27:03:06
Speaker 2
Combined. So I think, yeah, being being mindful about using either heavier ropes, thicker sheathed ropes, if they're single ropes or using two ropes can be a really great solution. Probably underrated. A lot of times. Yeah, for sure. And.
01:27:03:06 - 01:27:09:19
Speaker 2
you'd be comfortable with in most scenarios for climbing a single system?
01:27:09:19 - 01:27:11:22
Speaker 2
I think it really depends on the terrain.
01:27:12:27 - 01:27:31:24
Speaker 2
I mean, if I'm here, if I'm riding in the Alps, a lot of like mountaineering sort of stuff where I'm not doing as much rock climbing around sharp edges. But in doing more alpine climbing, waterfalls are are less common. I'm using like an eight five opera unicorn, which is a special blend for the chorus, woven somehow into the sheath.
01:27:31:26 - 01:27:36:11
Speaker 2
So my understanding, more cut resistant, more cut resistant.
01:27:37:08 - 01:27:54:17
Speaker 2
You know, in the guns at home here, I'm using, like a nine, five, which is not skinny by any means. When I went to Patagonia a few years ago, I'm using a fatter, like, nine four kind of rope versus a really skinny single, I use climbing. I usually use, like, the skinniest ropes that I probably have.
01:27:54:19 - 01:28:03:13
Speaker 2
Whether it be like in a, in a half twin scenario or a triple rated single rope, because there's just less abrasion of edges in general.
01:28:03:16 - 01:28:03:23
Speaker 1
Although.
01:28:03:23 - 01:28:06:25
Speaker 2
There are obviously like tools and crampons that are sharp.
01:28:06:27 - 01:28:07:14
Speaker 1
You can click going.
01:28:07:14 - 01:28:08:11
Speaker 2
Around a lot.
01:28:09:07 - 01:28:25:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I think it's just being really careful about, you know, everybody wants to go lighter and lighter and lighter all the time, and I do too, for sure. But there's just there's a limit to what's, you know, useful and and practical, to be honest.
01:28:26:19 - 01:28:27:25
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:28:27:25 - 01:28:40:16
Speaker 2
sense. Setting. Setting is huge. You got it. And it's like you said, there's so many options, so many different tools, and it's all in us to be able to once again have the, what's the conceptual knowledge to understand when to use these tools in certain
01:28:41:17 - 01:28:44:12
Speaker 1
Absolutely.
01:28:44:12 - 01:28:45:15
Speaker 2
I use it for everything.
01:28:46:16 - 01:29:08:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's a privilege to be able to have, a quiver of ropes. I totally understand that. Not everyone wants to. Or can, but I kind of view it, like. Well, if I have 2 or 3 ropes that are in rotation for using the best tool for the job that year or two, probably overall my use will come out in the wash.
01:29:08:11 - 01:29:25:22
Speaker 2
Like if I have just one rope that I wear out every six months, right? Versus three ropes which I wear out every two years. To use the same number of days but better, more precise tool for the day, is a win for me. Usually.
01:29:27:00 - 01:29:29:15
Speaker 2
All right. Cool. I've got, just a few closing questions,
01:29:30:17 - 01:29:32:13
Speaker 2
Sure. Of course.
01:29:32:13 - 01:29:39:15
Speaker 2
So we learn a lot of lessons in climbing, whether that be from mentors, from guides.
01:29:39:18 - 01:29:41:03
Speaker 1
Books.
01:29:41:05 - 01:29:46:16
Speaker 2
YouTube, Instagram. In your experience, in your what is it, 24 years
01:29:47:19 - 01:29:49:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, I guess so.
01:29:49:18 - 01:29:59:03
Speaker 2
What lessons in climbing require context and decades of experience? That you cannot learn in
01:30:03:17 - 01:30:39:05
Speaker 2
Well, the one that comes to mind first is like, just how much risk we're all taking. I mean, you just. You just can't overemphasize, the impact of something going really wrong, like, you just. You just can't explain it. And I feel it's a that's a big part of my job when I'm with clients in the field, for sure, is like, I want to do this thing, like, look, you I'm going to tell you this, and you're not really going to fully understand it, but that's really dangerous for these reasons, right?
01:30:39:07 - 01:31:00:18
Speaker 2
Like like climbing Mont Blanc means most like we have to either cross the Grand cooler or we have to cross underneath, the hanging fire on the tech. Cool. And those are just objective hazards that we can't manage. Like we can try to go at the right time, but there's a chance we just I just got taken out by huge objective hazard.
01:31:00:20 - 01:31:24:04
Speaker 2
And so we can have that conversation and be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. But until it happens, how can we possibly really, truly understand what what that what taking that risk means if it goes bad. Right. We all have this, this bias where unless it goes bad, we think we're doing a fine job and it's and it's worth the risk if things go well enough.
01:31:24:04 - 01:31:50:22
Speaker 2
Of course. But man, it's not probably worth it if it doesn't go well. So it's like this total I don't know, like just lack of lack of really, truly understanding the, the consequences of our actions. That I think is it's impossible to know,
01:31:50:22 - 01:32:06:09
Speaker 2
question of, like, kind of what you're talking about. Like how how do we try to share this knowledge of how the real visceral impacts of of these dangers that we witness firsthand? How do you try to convey that to somebody who hasn't gone through the same thing and you can't?
01:32:06:14 - 01:32:23:10
Speaker 2
I think that's just the general understanding, is that you can warn someone as much as you want. You can tell them how risky it is. But until someone has actually gone through something and obviously survived the lesson, there's really no other way to really feel the gravity of of the,
01:32:25:12 - 01:32:28:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. For sure.
01:32:28:16 - 01:32:33:05
Speaker 2
experience or a particular,
01:32:33:07 - 01:32:42:24
Speaker 2
Situation that kind of like really brought the, the severity and the realities of, of risks in climbing
01:32:44:24 - 01:32:53:16
Speaker 2
I mean, at this point for me, I've. I've had a, you know, a lot of a lot of friends get killed, and and injured to.
01:32:54:17 - 01:33:00:16
Speaker 2
But the the first one that comes to mind is my, I would say my first mentor, John Tierney.
01:33:02:00 - 01:33:22:24
Speaker 2
In Maine, who's now in I've mg mountain guide at this point was going to take his, ski mountaineering guide exam in Valdez, Alaska. And I think I had known him probably at that point for maybe a year or two, and just learned to climb, learning that I probably wanted a guide at some point soon. And he was in Alaska training for the ski exam.
01:33:22:26 - 01:33:46:17
Speaker 2
And to make a very long story short, and, while on a training day, a cornice collapse underneath his skis, and he fell probably 80 or so feet onto a flat, icy surface and essentially, you know, obliterated like L2, R3 and maybe L4. I don't remember the exact details. I don't know the spine anatomy super well, but destroyed his lower back.
01:33:47:07 - 01:34:08:14
Speaker 2
And, you know, almost didn't live through the experience. And eventually, with the help of his two partners and and partly skiing out, was able to get back to the road and and subsequently had, a couple surgeries there and was able to eventually get back home. Had a surgery a year or two later, went back to pass his ski exam.
01:34:08:16 - 01:34:18:17
Speaker 2
2 or 3 years later. Super impressive. They said he never carried a backpack again. But I think what struck me about that was that,
01:34:18:17 - 01:34:32:20
Speaker 2
like, this was a guy to me who is the most thoughtful, conservative, knowledgeable person and still to this day, like, probably is one of the top people in all those categories.
01:34:33:11 - 01:34:40:06
Speaker 2
In, in climbing, like, right. Like if, like, this wasn't a mistake that.
01:34:40:08 - 01:34:41:03
Speaker 1
Well.
01:34:41:05 - 01:34:52:24
Speaker 2
I guess the point was that if this person could have something go wrong like this, it can happen to any of us. It doesn't matter how good you are, it doesn't matter how smart you are, how savvy you are.
01:34:53:20 - 01:35:03:18
Speaker 2
It can all go really bad. And it. And every day we're each out there, you can have a. For me, it's a career ending or life changing or altering or ending.
01:35:04:04 - 01:35:06:13
Speaker 2
Mishap. So.
01:35:11:07 - 01:35:38:21
Speaker 2
I don't know, it's really fun. I mean, the, you know, the, the, the things we do, our life affirming, they, they make the rest of life more interesting and go into work, more manageable and it's a they're like the highlights of our lives a lot of times. Right. So, I mean, how can you. It's it's hard to think poorly upon that when you think of it.
01:35:38:21 - 01:35:41:07
Speaker 2
That way.
01:35:41:10 - 01:35:42:24
Speaker 1
So I don't know, it's.
01:35:43:08 - 01:35:56:04
Speaker 2
Again, I think it's that personal decision of how much risk you're willing to take, how much objective hazard you willing to put yourself under, how much? How much like, I guess each objective has, like a a certain number of dice attached to it that you have to roll.
01:35:56:18 - 01:35:57:18
Speaker 1
Sure.
01:35:57:18 - 01:36:01:27
Speaker 2
of like, how many dice are you willing to roll in any given moment?
01:36:02:07 - 01:36:28:06
Speaker 2
And over time, too, I mean, I think about, you know, like, I'm an international license mountain guide. And I live in New Paltz, New York, which is great rock cracking. You know, winter doesn't really exist here, to the extent that I would like it to. The skiing is abysmal. There aren't any big mountains nearby, and I go back and forth between, like, you know, I could totally live in Germany year round, full time.
01:36:28:08 - 01:36:41:28
Speaker 2
You know, I spend spend three months there a year, and it's it's kind of nice. Come back. Just go rock climbing, like cracking, pushing the grade trad rock climbing here in the Bronx, you know, never more than 300ft off the ground. So.
01:36:43:11 - 01:37:20:17
Speaker 2
There's some kind of balance there for all of us. So we got to figure out, but I do think that the, the one thing that helps that become more objective is, is the separation from the routine that you're in. Whether it be a seasonal change or a move geographically or just some time off from doing it every single day is like the mental break, like we said in the debriefing kind of conversation of each day is like just the mental break of like trying to look at it more objectively and not just be like in the groove of doing the next biggest thing, the next hardest thing, like the next letter grade.
01:37:21:17 - 01:37:31:17
Speaker 2
Always day after day after day after day. Because that's that's when it just becomes normal and mundane. And you just get really used to taking that risk and it just seems normal.
01:37:31:17 - 01:37:34:09
Speaker 2
of complacency there that gets dangerous.
01:37:34:09 - 01:37:39:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think just like comfort, like. Yeah, it's just like, just part of the deal.
01:37:39:11 - 01:37:41:06
Speaker 2
before? What's the quote you
01:37:41:06 - 01:37:45:16
Speaker 2
said? If all of your climbing experiences are carefree and full of joy, then your red flags should be going
01:37:47:24 - 01:38:02:29
Speaker 2
I'm a little a little dramatic sometimes. But, yeah, I mean, you know, it's it's all good until it's not, you know, like, if it's just about thinking it's all good all the time, you're probably missing something, you know?
01:38:05:11 - 01:38:06:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
01:38:06:14 - 01:38:29:11
Speaker 2
Just a little realism, right? And I, and I totally get, like, I'm probably, like, largely, a pessimistic person. My wife is probably more optimistic person. You know, there's there's, you know, right in that spectrum is something we all have to do. And, probably the pessimism part is why I'm such a good guide. Like to be careful out there.
01:38:29:13 - 01:38:36:11
Speaker 1
But.
01:38:36:14 - 01:38:40:22
Speaker 2
I think so, but but, you know, I also I don't climb 514 either.
01:38:40:25 - 01:38:41:08
Speaker 1
So.
01:38:41:08 - 01:39:04:08
Speaker 2
optimist achieves more, though. Lives shorter, achieves more. Yeah. It's it depends on what you're going for. Nice, man. Yeah. To to kind of close this out, I'd love to give you an opportunity to talk about, the ascend membership, the Ascend Pro membership, and, you know, really kind of bring this all circled back to, you know, this opportunity.
01:39:04:08 - 01:39:28:26
Speaker 2
I think one of the questions I had was, you know, if we can't find a mentor, we're struggling to find mentors. You know, and we aren't really that psyched about, you know, trusting, climbing influencers. Gear beater and trad, you know, mentorship online. Where else can we turn, what else can we do? And how can we, make ourselves safer as climbers?
01:39:28:26 - 01:39:33:02
Speaker 2
And it kind of seems like these, programs that you've made are kind of filling that
01:39:34:20 - 01:40:00:11
Speaker 2
I mean, yeah, it's been it's been really fun. It's been almost, I guess, three and a half years or almost four years since I started the ascend membership and the idea was exactly what we're talking about. It's like, how do I how can I offer to more people a level of mentorship that they need and want? And so the idea is it's a very, very low cost mentorship that's continuous and ongoing.
01:40:00:14 - 01:40:00:24
Speaker 1
This is.
01:40:00:24 - 01:40:17:14
Speaker 2
A game that we are involved in for hopefully a very long time. So it's a it's a way to have a lot of really great FaceTime with people from all over the world, that are trying to do things more safely, trying to do things, better, try to push to grieve themselves in a way that's sustainable.
01:40:17:17 - 01:40:39:06
Speaker 2
Try to, you know, open their horizons a little bit and, and move into perhaps different terrain than they're already comfortable in. And it's a community. It's, it's been a really it's pretty, a pretty amazing, community we've created inside of ascend, people from literally all over the world. That are just trying to, to play this game.
01:40:39:06 - 01:41:19:11
Speaker 2
Well, I think do it safely enough, have a good time, not have our egos be the one driving the bus, not feeling like we're getting shame from people on the internet, that were just doing our thing and doing it well and having fun with it. And it's been really great when we do monthly calls that are all recorded, live video calls that are recorded at this point, there's like 50 or so recorded calls in the membership, everything from technical systems and rope work and transitions and rescue work, to mindset training and working on the lead head or just kind of, you know, trying to figure out how to deal with anxiety
01:41:19:11 - 01:41:21:16
Speaker 2
and and being in the right headspace.
01:41:22:20 - 01:41:41:00
Speaker 2
And then we also deal with movement and the physical fitness training and training part of it, as well. And the basis of all of it is what we've been talking about with this conceptualization idea. Right? Like, what is the why behind each of these things that we're trying to pursue? So that it's been really fun.
01:41:41:00 - 01:41:52:08
Speaker 2
I've had a bunch of amazing guests on that have given talks on certain specific, topics that they're experts in, and just had a great conversations across the board with lots of people.
01:41:53:24 - 01:41:58:00
Speaker 2
It's been great. Yeah. So as of this end, membership is for basically recreational climbers.
01:41:58:14 - 01:42:14:02
Speaker 2
Of any skill set. And then the Ascend Pro is made for instructors and guides. And we have a group from all over the world again, from people just starting to, to guide or learn to that they might want to guide all the way to, several FMG guides across the world as well.
01:42:14:29 - 01:42:24:28
Speaker 2
And that's been a really fun community to, yeah, it's a blast. I and I mean, you can look at it from a yearly perspective. You can sign up for a month.
01:42:25:27 - 01:42:29:16
Speaker 2
Binge all the content and say thanks. No, thanks. It's not for me.
01:42:30:12 - 01:42:35:23
Speaker 2
Or whatever you want. So.
01:42:35:25 - 01:42:38:19
Speaker 2
I think it's 27.
01:42:38:19 - 01:42:58:07
Speaker 2
was like, yeah, like, a discounted if you go for the whole year. But no, it's cool. I love the idea and I definitely think it's something that's missing. I think that, there's, I have a lot of people come up to me, and are struggling with, mentors and wondering, you know, how that process goes.
01:42:58:07 - 01:43:02:12
Speaker 2
And I think the, you know, I'm going to be making an episode about partnership
01:43:03:08 - 01:43:04:09
Speaker 1
No. Cool.
01:43:04:09 - 01:43:12:13
Speaker 2
to find partners and kind of what that looks like. But yeah, I think it's it's a really cool void to fill. And I think that, the community will be better for it in the end.
01:43:12:13 - 01:43:12:22
Speaker 1
So.
01:43:13:14 - 01:43:31:03
Speaker 2
I mean, it's it's been really fun, like, just meeting so many people that are interested to have the conversations we have has been amazing. And one of the offshoots has been that, like, I see people that met in the membership at the cliff and they're like, yeah, yeah, we're doing the same. Like, oh my, like just makes my heart, fill a little bit, which is really nice.
01:43:31:03 - 01:43:35:12
Speaker 2
So. There's over 100 now.
01:43:36:09 - 01:43:40:24
Speaker 2
All said and done, which has been fantastic. It's been really, really fun.
01:43:42:07 - 01:43:50:16
Speaker 2
Where can people find you? You know, obviously you've got, like, a growing Instagram channel. You know, how how can people, you know, follow your story?
01:43:51:01 - 01:43:55:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, totally. I mean, Silas Rossi. Silas Rossi.
01:43:55:08 - 01:43:55:14
Speaker 1
On.
01:43:55:14 - 01:44:12:06
Speaker 2
Social media and on, YouTube and then alpine dash like a hyphen. Alpine dash. Logical. It's my website, and it's all my guiding booking is in there. You can find my email on there as well. As well as some, some links to the membership, all that kind of thing too.
01:44:12:08 - 01:44:13:01
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:44:13:01 - 01:44:14:20
Speaker 2
Well, we'll be sure to put the links in the
01:44:17:13 - 01:44:34:26
Speaker 2
Yeah. I'm happy to answer questions or talk to folks if they have anything they're looking to, to do or to, to pursue. I do also a lot of a fair bit of private coaching with people via zoom, remotely as well. So if the group thing is not quite your thing, that's that's also a possibility. Yeah.
01:44:34:29 - 01:44:35:24
Speaker 2
The chat.
01:44:35:24 - 01:44:36:14
Speaker 1
Excellent.
01:44:36:16 - 01:44:41:09
Speaker 2
Well, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time. I know you're busy, man, and, Yeah, I had a great time. Chat with you is
01:44:42:04 - 01:44:47:27
Speaker 2
Likewise. Kyle, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. And I hope it's, useful for for you and others.
