89 | The Creek Freak w/ Devin Fin

If you’re a crack climber, chances are you’ve either made the pilgrimage to Indian Creek or have at least dreamed about it. Nestled in the Utah desert, this valley holds one of the highest concentrations of pure splitter cracks in the world. It’s quite literally a crack climber’s paradise.

The remarkable uniformity of its cracks require upwards of 16 cams of the same size .  While early pioneers like Earl Wiggins made history with routes like Supercrack—established with nothing but hexes—it wasn’t until the late ‘70s and the development of cams that the true potential of the Creek was unlocked. Since then, the area has exploded in popularity, with over 1,600 routes listed on Mountain Project alone.

But of all the climbers who have contributed to the development of Indian Creek, one name stands out: Devin Fin. 

Devin caught the Creek bug early, after his family moved to Durango. Once he got a taste of the desert splitters, he never looked back. He dedicated his life to climbing and establishing new routes full-time, amassing an incredible 665 first ascents in the creek over the last thirty years.. But unlike some route developers, Devin doesn’t publish all his climbs in guidebooks or Mountain Project. Instead,over half of his established routes are sitting in the desert waiting to be climbed… If you’re in search for a Devin Fin route you’ll just need to follow the breadcrumbs…With placards at the base and signature shiny bolted anchors—these classic routes wait for adventurous climbers to stumble upon them.

For Devin, route development isn’t just about creating climbs—it’s a way of life. With no car, no house, and no traditional job, he has built a life centered entirely around climbing, exploration, and self-sufficiency. He wakes up every day in pursuit of the next climb.

In our conversation, we dive into Devin’s background, the history of Indian Creek climbing, the elusive nature of his first ascents, risk management, his memorable FA’s, and more.

----

HELP KEEP THIS PODCAST AD FREE! | For a little as $3/mo!

----

Don’t forget to check out our full video episodes on Youtube!

The TCM movement is growing but we need your help to spread the word! Please share this podcast with your friends and family. Word of mouth is one of the best ways to support the show. If you enjoyed the show we’d appreciate it if you could rate and review us on your favorite podcatcher.

We are always looking for new guests. If you or someone you know would be a great fit for the show please don’t hesitate to reach out. You can reach us on IG or email us directly @ theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com

---

Resources

Devin's IG

The Creek Freak Guidebook

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:26 Devin's Entire Background
• 28:21 The History of Indian Creek Climbing
• 31:00 Motivations Behind The Art of Development
• 36:26 Bolting Ban
• 41:41 Making First Ascents Public
• 47:18 I Was A Pro Climber
• 57:24 A Climber's Passions
• 1:11:31 Risk Management, Notable Ascents, & Weaknesses
• 1:37:50 Final Reflections

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;09;23
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.

00;00;09;25 - 00;00;14;17
Speaker 1
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.

00;00;15;18 - 00;00;38;03
Speaker 1
What's up everybody? And welcome back to the show. If you're a rock climber, chances are you've either made the pilgrimage to Indian Creek or have at least dreamed about it. Nestled in the Utah desert, this valley holds one of the highest concentration of pure splitter cracks in the world. It is quite literally a crack climber's Paradise. The remarkable uniformity of its cracks require upwards of 16 cams of the same size.

00;00;38;05 - 00;01;02;27
Speaker 1
While early pioneers like Earl Wiggins made history with routes like Super crack, establishing the route with nothing but hexes. It wasn't until the late 70s and the development of cams that the true potential of the creek wasn't locked. Since then, the area has exploded in popularity, with over 1600 routes listed on Mountain Project alone. But of all the climbers who have contributed to the development of the creek, one name stands out.

00;01;02;29 - 00;01;25;19
Speaker 1
Devin Finn Devin caught the Creek Bug early after his family moved to Durango. Once he got a taste of the desert splitters, he never looked back. He dedicated his life to climbing and establishing new routes full time, amassing an incredible 665 first ascents in the creek over the last 30 years. But unlike some route developers, Devin doesn't publish all his climbs in guidebooks or mountain project.

00;01;25;26 - 00;01;45;08
Speaker 1
Instead, over half of his established routes are sitting in the desert waiting to be climbed. If you're in search for a Devin Finn route, you'll just need to follow the breadcrumbs with placards at the base and signature shiny, bolted anchors. These classic routes wait for adventurous climbers to stumble upon them. For Devin, route development isn't just about creating climbs.

00;01;45;11 - 00;02;10;00
Speaker 1
It's a way of life with no car, no house, and no traditional job. He has built a life centered entirely around climbing, exploration, and self-sufficiency. He wakes up every day in the pursuit of the next climb. In our conversation, we dive into Devin's background the history of Indian Creek climbing. The elusive nature of his first sense, risk management, his memorable first ascents, and more.

00;02;10;02 - 00;02;13;09
Speaker 1
And now I bring you the Creek Freak.

00;02;26;02 - 00;03;01;09
Speaker 1
Coach. You spend good, man. It's, It's a vibe down here. It's not like a popular area, but been coming here since, like, the late 90s. Not for a lot, but, you know, like a little trip here. Little trip there. A couple of years ago, I kind of augured in down here for, like, a whole season. And it was it was what I needed, what I wanted in regards to like, winter time destination, you know, like a lot of people go to Red rocks, Joshua Tree, maybe even down New Mexico and stuff, but yeah, it's good here.

00;03;01;14 - 00;03;03;13
Speaker 1
Climbing keeps you honest.

00;03;04;06 - 00;03;12;02
Speaker 1
Is it like I was asking Molly? Is it like staunched in, like the old school ethics? Just like the McDowell's and, granite. Granite Peak or Granite Mountain, I believe. Granite peak.

00;03;12;14 - 00;03;29;12
Speaker 1
Yeah. Arizona really lives up to its reputation in regards to keeping the grades honest, I don't even know where the hell they got their ideas or grades, but yeah, we're steadily five, eight, five, nine in it. If I get the double digits, I get scared out here. It's crazy.

00;03;29;12 - 00;03;48;06
Speaker 1
there's some Dave Baker routes down here, and. Dude, he was harder than a fucking coffin nail. Some of his routes are just amazing. And when they do check in at 510, you you got to pack at lunch like I did this thing half ass at the end of last season.

00;03;48;08 - 00;04;11;12
Speaker 1
And I'm not saying I was svelte, but I was in good shape and it was 510 and it took everything I had to get to the top of it in regards to like face climbing, crack climbing, endurance. And he put it up in like the 60s with like bongs dressed up like ready to chop wood as opposed to climb a rock.

00;04;11;14 - 00;04;20;12
Speaker 1
Yeah. Pretty amazing. And the five eights down here, I just don't even know where to begin with some, like. Yeah, the grids down here.

00;04;23;02 - 00;04;40;24
Speaker 1
Dave Baker. Yes, I believe he has.

00;04;40;27 - 00;05;07;02
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, Scott Ayers is very prolific down here with putting up roots since, like, the 70s. And, I mean, it's super fun to, like, hear people's opinion on them and then to, like, actually meet the dude and you're like, oh, well, shit, you're just a climber's climber. And I, I could be wrong, but I believe he's in his 60s and he, he just goes like he's the nicest guy.

00;05;07;05 - 00;05;29;20
Speaker 1
And some of his roots that are down here from like the 80s, oh my god. And then in the 90s you kind of are like, okay, this is I guess, what Scott was going through. And then now in like the 2000s, his roots are like vaulted and safe and realistic. He came back and rebuilt some of his old test pieces.

00;05;29;20 - 00;05;35;14
Speaker 1
And people are like, you can't do that. But they're his roots to rebuild. So

00;05;35;14 - 00;05;35;24
Speaker 1
but yeah,

00;05;35;24 - 00;05;55;29
Speaker 1
he's got the heart and the drive like I've never seen. Like he's running down, fixing the trail. After a day of putting up roots all day long with other old, old school hard guys are up here hanging out with them like John Fowler and Jack tackle or just like sitting up there at the crag with them and you're like, oh my God.

00;05;56;02 - 00;06;14;04
Speaker 1
Yeah. And they're all still crushers, two other age. And I'm not sure how old John is, but I know Jack's up there, so.

00;06;14;07 - 00;06;28;13
Speaker 1
For sure I, I'm always like, it's not one of those gravity assistant sports, like, you know, like downhill skiing or snowboarding or mountain biking. Like, you get that in your head and you start going too quick. Shit happens fast.

00;06;28;13 - 00;06;53;08
Speaker 1
sure it does. In regards to these, these kind of this older generation of climbers, you almost had mentioned something, something specific, you know, so like, you know, like with rock and roll music or songwriting in general, poetry, you kind of have like a lot of the times people's expressions are through sorrow or like things that people are going through, you know, like, and it's it comes out in the expression of music.

00;06;53;08 - 00;07;01;15
Speaker 1
Right? It almost kind of seems like you alluded to that same thing translating into people expressing. And in climbing, do you find that as a parallel?

00;07;02;14 - 00;07;38;18
Speaker 1
Oh, for sure, for sure. It's kind of. It's interesting to see. I mean, if you haven't passed away, unfortunately, some of these first dissension is roots really should tell a story in regards to what they were doing when they were not a kid, but in their 20s. And then seeing their roots progressed degress to the point where they're, you know, in their 60s, just doing it, to still have that same passion and fun and yeah, it's kind of interesting to see where The Roots will take you in regards to developing.

00;07;38;18 - 00;07;54;18
Speaker 1
I mean, everyone has a journey with their own climbing, you know, but yeah, in regards to developing roots, kind of there's big tells. You're like, oh, so-and-so must have been on it that year.

00;07;54;21 - 00;08;08;15
Speaker 1
For sure. Like everything must hit the right. You know, we sometimes say that you find all the good stone one year. You got a good partner that season. Yeah.

00;08;08;15 - 00;08;15;09
Speaker 1
what do you think has changed in terms of the dynamics between, you know, first essentialist back in the day, you know, back in the 70s

00;08;17;01 - 00;08;42;10
Speaker 1
God, I don't know. You know, the gears come a long way. So, you know, people even nowadays developing stuff think they're hanging it out there, but they're really not in comparison to what the old schoolers had to deal with, like, in regards to gear and everything. And, I don't know, maybe it's just, you know, you lose enough friends, you have enough people get hurt, you look back at it and you're not one of those people.

00;08;42;10 - 00;09;07;08
Speaker 1
You're like, man, maybe I will fix these roots and maybe I will make it more accessible to the people. And, I mean, I've found that, and not in my older age of developing roots, but kind of letting some stuff just go and being like, that's not worth dodging around that block now. Like it's it's been there. I've looked at it for years, but I think and just probably let, let it be.

00;09;07;11 - 00;09;17;20
Speaker 1
But I, you know. Yeah, I'm not quite sure what with the mindset of some of these old school or guys were what they were thinking.

00;09;17;20 - 00;09;34;10
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, it's almost like there's no one even climbing like that anymore is I get, like, it's probably related to the safety in the gear that we have. But yeah, some of the times I think about people climbing with like not you're not at ropes and just simple hexes on entire crack climbs. I'm just like, these guys were on another level.

00;09;34;10 - 00;09;34;18
Speaker 1
It's

00;09;35;29 - 00;10;05;29
Speaker 1
Yeah. And a complete nother level. I mean, when you run out of cans and you have to, like, start putting in passive gear, you're like, oh, man, I'm. I'm so trad. And it's like, that's all there was before. And you know. Yeah, the widgets have come a long way and made the game super fun and super accessible and I'm not like quite old enough to not remember cans, you know, like I started climbing like the late 90s and they were pretty accessible.

00;10;05;29 - 00;10;23;10
Speaker 1
There was a lot of cams on the market. There was I didn't have it cornered. So there was a bunch of interesting companies that all had their eye take on it. So it made it a lot safer than what it was before. So I think that's a big part of it.

00;10;23;14 - 00;10;43;01
Speaker 1
Totally. Well, I mean, I think, you know, on this topic of of, you know, developing routes, you you are a bit of a pioneer and kind of a developer yourself, especially in you know, the, the, the Creek area. And I'm really interested in kind of diving into your story. So where where does your story begin, Devin.

00;10;43;01 - 00;10;45;27
Speaker 1
Like what was your childhood like, and how did it lead to

00;10;46;26 - 00;11;11;28
Speaker 1
Got, I'd say like the first taste of climbing I ever got was Devils Lake, Wisconsin. As, like a young kid, like, maybe like 7 or 8. Going out was like a youth group or whatever, and them tying, like, swami belts on us and throwing the ropes down off the cliff and starting to top rope there. And it was pretty interesting.

00;11;11;28 - 00;11;36;11
Speaker 1
I mean, I was young, you kind of don't remember a lot of stuff like that, but I moved to Southern California in like the mid 80s and, you know, like many kids, I went to like the YMCA and they had, opportunity for kids to go up to Joshua Tree. And I was like, whoa, I'm going to go do the rock climb, because I've done it before.

00;11;36;11 - 00;12;00;03
Speaker 1
I know how that goes. And, yeah, went out to Joshua Tree with like, a group of, like, YMCA dudes who were climbers, you know, like, just load the kids up, take them out. Southern California in the 80s, it was a different world. And, yeah, I knew how to tie a swami belt. Like, I was pretty, pretty stoked on that.

00;12;00;03 - 00;12;15;08
Speaker 1
And like, the older dudes who I was looking up to, who knew how to climb and set the rules for, like, oh, check out Devin, let him check your Swami bill. And I was like, oh yeah, I know what I'm doing. So it kind of gave me like a boost of I kind of know what was going on.

00;12;15;08 - 00;12;52;26
Speaker 1
And yeah, so I kind of fell in love with it being propped up, you know, by peers or whatever. And yeah, so that was how I like got into like liking rock climbing. And then I moved to Durango, Colorado and like early 90s, mid 90s and that was it. Like everybody rock climbs in Durango and yeah. Bolted a bit, got a harness, went down that whole trail of finding partners, finding people who wanted to get out and do stuff.

00;12;52;26 - 00;13;11;15
Speaker 1
And. Yeah. And if you live in Durango, Indian Creek is like right there. It's like two hours away, something like that. So eventually people were like, you got to go to Indian Creek. And yeah. Here I yeah, yeah.

00;13;11;18 - 00;13;15;15
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;13;15;18 - 00;13;44;12
Speaker 1
Yeah. Totally. Growing up, my parents took me hiking, camping, every, every chance to get out and do stuff was like a thing. And, Yeah, it was. It was cool. Growing up, my, my mom's a full blooded native, and my dad's an Irishman, so I kind of had a cool dichotomy of growing up in being able to do interesting, cool shit on every scale and every level.

00;13;44;14 - 00;13;47;24
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;13;47;26 - 00;13;52;21
Speaker 1
I got an older brother and a sister who's, like, two years older.

00;13;52;24 - 00;13;55;02
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;13;55;05 - 00;14;16;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's somewhat me and my sister stay in touch. I mean, as much as you can with, like, older siblings. I'm like the baby of the family. So. I think two years with my sister and my brother, like, ten. Yeah.

00;14;16;09 - 00;14;34;11
Speaker 1
Totally. But I grown up with an older brother. It was always cool. Is, you know, whatever your older brother did or was into, like, you kind of like all that. That's what's cool. But come to the later on in life, like, dude, my older brother was wack. No.

00;14;34;13 - 00;14;53;02
Speaker 1
Yeah. I was like, I was like 13 or 14 before I found out that kiss wasn't cool. I was like, yo. This isn't heavy metal at all.

00;14;53;05 - 00;14;58;02
Speaker 1
I want to see like 12, 13.

00;14;58;05 - 00;15;09;01
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;15;09;01 - 00;15;15;28
Speaker 1
the fuck? Like this sport is calling to me. I cannot believe I didn't know that this existed, at least for me.

00;15;15;28 - 00;15;27;29
Speaker 1
And people who finds the sport later in their life in their 20s are just like, why have I waited so long? You know, like, seems like you, you know, we're brushed with that pretty early. Like, was there a specific moment, maybe even a little bit later

00;15;32;11 - 00;15;57;02
Speaker 1
So moving from Southern California to Durango, Colorado in, like, the early 90s was like heavy metal. I was like, what do you like now? I got there's no mall here. It's a rural community. Like, I couldn't believe it. And I knew there was rock climbing there, because that was one of the things your parents sell you on there, like, oh, you love the rock climbing.

00;15;57;02 - 00;16;19;22
Speaker 1
There's a rock climbing there. And I was, standing in the Animas Valley, which is, if you've ever been to Durango, it's beautiful, like a river cuts through it. It's pretty sweet. And on the north end of town, you can, like, see this huge glacier carved valley. And there's a huge chunk of stone up on the right side called East Animas.

00;16;19;24 - 00;16;39;03
Speaker 1
And it's just like a beautiful plug of stone. And it was like 300ft tall or something. And I saw like a red X up on the wall. And I was like, whoa, you know, someone painted a red X up there. And my friend was like, no, that's a rock climbing area. That's a rock climber. So she get out of here.

00;16;39;03 - 00;17;01;11
Speaker 1
No way. And that was kind of the moment where I was like, I'll do whatever it takes to get up to that spot and stand there and be that red X, you know? And yeah, it didn't take long to go up to that area and look up like, oh, wow, I'm gonna have to pack a lunch before I'll be able to get that high on the wall.

00;17;01;11 - 00;17;03;25
Speaker 1
But this is cool.

00;17;03;25 - 00;17;15;28
Speaker 1
In terms of your progression through the sport, like where you kind of, Did you follow, like, a boulder sport track climbing. True. You know, trajectory, or did you just jump into track climbing? You know, what was

00;17;19;29 - 00;17;49;13
Speaker 1
I met my friend, Chris Shorty. He's a prolific bowler. Early on in my early teens, like, 14, 15, and he was walking up and ceiling hawks, which is a great bouldering area outside of Durango. And, yeah, he was out bouldering. I was like, well, I got some shoes. I can do the bouldering. And yeah, I just heard of all the stories and the places to go and things to do.

00;17;49;16 - 00;18;15;07
Speaker 1
And like, you looked up on the wall above the boulders and he's like, there's roots all up there. You just need, like, a rope, harness, some quick draws. And I was like, well, we get our hands on those, let's go do this. And yeah, slowly from there, he just started sport climbing and bouldering a lot. And then I always had ambitions to go other places and climb like big rocks and do things like that.

00;18;15;07 - 00;18;29;06
Speaker 1
And I figured, you need trad you, you can't sport clip your way up l cat. So I was like, I have to learn how to place these cams in these nuts and get that whole bag of tricks going.

00;18;29;24 - 00;18;36;28
Speaker 1
Was that something that was taught to you, or did you kind of, like, get it crash course, and then, like, basically instruct yourself through experience.

00;18;38;27 - 00;18;58;12
Speaker 1
Kind of instruct myself to experience to a degree. But you always learn from everybody around you, especially in any climbing community. There's always people who are. They're willing to show you a thing or two or they see you buying gear at the climbing store. And I'm like, where are you going with all those cams? And you're like, I'm kidding, you know?

00;18;58;15 - 00;19;12;05
Speaker 1
So yeah, totally. And it was. And in Durango, there's no shortage of people who are going to climb who are climbers. And yeah, it's kind of a cool little crossroads in southern Colorado.

00;19;12;05 - 00;19;23;03
Speaker 1
What did your kind of, like, career progression look like as a adolescent? You know, human and kind of getting into your teens and the thought of college, like, what was that aspect of your life?

00;19;23;29 - 00;19;45;21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like I worked, like, I went to high school and everything. And you go through the high school stuff. And then my father was a carpet layer, and I was like, well, that's a great way to make money. So I started the family trade, started laying carpet, and, it kept me fit. It kept my wallet full.

00;19;45;23 - 00;20;08;10
Speaker 1
I had a kid at 21, which is kind of young in life, but, you know, life happens. And, Yeah, just was a working man for years and years raising a kid, laying carpet, climbing as much as I could every day, getting out, doing things as much as a single parent with a job can.

00;20;09;11 - 00;20;16;24
Speaker 1
Now, a single father that I think that's, I'd say counter culture in the way that you would normally hear. Right. It's usually

00;20;18;09 - 00;20;20;05
Speaker 1
Oh, for sure, for sure.

00;20;20;05 - 00;20;26;05
Speaker 1
I don't know how you know how far you want to get into it, but, like, what was that? What was that? What was that like as a

00;20;27;24 - 00;20;43;26
Speaker 1
I mean, I don't know, it's tough to be like a parent, but, a young parent is like, you know, man, rock my face. I was like, I don't know. The summer of 99, I found out I was going to be a dad, and I was like, oh my God. Like, I mean, I'm not even ready for this.

00;20;43;28 - 00;21;05;27
Speaker 1
Like MTV generation, dude. I watched hella Teen Mom on TV and was like, dude, that will never be me. Look at these poor people. And I was like, Holy shit. Like, I, I'm that person. But you know, it was like, like I said, life happens and I wasn't ready for it, but no one ever is. And yeah, it was.

00;21;05;27 - 00;21;17;11
Speaker 1
I rolled with it. I had a good job. Thankfully. I had a great community around me to help me raise my son and great dad and mom. You know, grandparents, they're like

00;21;17;29 - 00;21;20;22
Speaker 1
Yeah. The support of your family, I would imagine, is just, like, super

00;21;21;18 - 00;21;23;12
Speaker 1
Totally.

00;21;25;06 - 00;21;56;01
Speaker 1
Devin, he's he's a junior. Totally. Yeah. And he lived in Tacoma for. I mean, he moved out when he was, like, late 17, like, moved to California, lived there for a couple years, then moved up Tacoma and was in Tacoma for, I don't know, the past couple of years and then just recently moved back to Durango, like this past summer, which is nice because it's good to be able to see him.

00;21;56;01 - 00;22;07;03
Speaker 1
Although I'm out traveling and climbing full time, I do get back home to like hang out with my pops and do hometown stuff, so that's kind of cool.

00;22;07;03 - 00;22;24;26
Speaker 1
Well, I commend you. I think that there's, you know, again, the the traditional narrative is the single mother and the the distant, removed father. So, you know, I, I personally don't have any kids, but I could for sure, you know, through, you know, just anecdotal experience or people that I know, understand how hard it is.

00;22;24;26 - 00;22;30;18
Speaker 1
And, I commend you for, you know, sticking with it and being a dad and doing the work, man, I think that the new a

00;22;32;05 - 00;22;50;00
Speaker 1
Oh yeah. And like, the one thing about having a young son, like he was my best climbing partner for years, you know, and and until he met girls, he was, like, my best ballet partner. He'd never say no. Going out to the creek on the weekend. He was excited for it. And yeah, it was great.

00;22;50;00 - 00;23;05;16
Speaker 1
a that's another thing too, like a father always, I would imagine. And, you know, a climbing father is, like, really psyched about having their kid be, you know, interested in climbing as well. How did you navigate, you know, the, the difference between I want this for you versus I want you to want this

00;23;07;06 - 00;23;25;07
Speaker 1
Yeah, he was kind of on board right away. You know, he was pretty stoked on it. You know? He knew what I was doing all throughout his younger, younger years. And then. Yeah, once you get a kid a harness for Christmas and a pair of shoes, a shiny harness and cool shoes still look like cool shoes.

00;23;25;07 - 00;23;26;18
Speaker 2
So.

00;23;26;20 - 00;23;35;29
Speaker 1
Yeah, he was stoked on it. And yeah, it was his. It was our jam. We climbed everywhere. It was kind of fun.

00;23;36;02 - 00;23;37;28
Speaker 1
Yeah, totally.

00;23;37;28 - 00;24;03;20
Speaker 1
in terms of your your progression as a climber yourself. Like we always, you know, as we start, it's just like, all absorbing, you know, it's I would say it's a hobby, you know. Oh. Did you ever consider, you know, going the pro route, you know, did you get sponsors like what was kind of your dabbling in terms of kind of shifting most of your focus into the world of climbing?

00;24;04;22 - 00;24;33;04
Speaker 1
So, Man, I, I really just loved climbing for climbing forever. And the creek just really hung on me, and I've been out there since I was like, in my teens, my late teens, climbing as much as I could, and, yeah, started developing roots and just fell in love with it. Never even thought that I'd be a prolific first essentialist out there.

00;24;33;07 - 00;24;54;03
Speaker 1
I mean, you saw the names on the plaques and you're like, wow, these guys must be like eight feet tall. And legend, how did they do all this stuff? And yeah, slowly doing it myself. I found that like, that's the kind of climbing I want to do. Like, I loved splitter climbing in Indian Creek, but like, putting up my own roots was really fun.

00;24;54;03 - 00;25;22;18
Speaker 1
And, I don't know, it was one of those things where, I got an email and I used my name and for a mountain project, and my son also had the same name, so I was just like, well, let me use your email because it's Devin for York and we're the same person. So so I would do my little posts a couple of my roots on Mountain Project, make a snarky comment here and there.

00;25;22;20 - 00;25;48;17
Speaker 1
And he was like, dad, you know, people are like messaging you all the time about your roots in this, in that, like, you should maybe set up a social media account and, like, tell people what you're doing. And I was like, young kids, what what's your dad going to do with this social media account? And, yeah, I set up an Instagram in like 2015 and I just climbed the climb.

00;25;48;17 - 00;26;13;28
Speaker 1
I never thought it would be a thing. And yeah, people apparently really loved, crack climbs down in Indian Creek. They'd put up and yeah, my Instagram kind of blew up rather quickly, which, you know, to at the time, I was in my late 30s. I was like, this is for like kids. I can't believe people are reaching out to me and wanting to do cool things.

00;26;13;28 - 00;26;38;28
Speaker 1
And find out about my roots. So yeah, from just being like a climber in the creek to like companies reaching out, like wanting to give you your gear, you support their gear. Yeah, it's kind of interesting.

00;26;38;28 - 00;26;55;23
Speaker 1
first essentialist passion. I think that, I wouldn't say it's as mainstream these days to, like, immediately kind of go in that direction of, like, being inspired to be first. It is just. I would say it's mostly because the access is so amazing. There's like so many options to choose from, right?

00;26;55;23 - 00;27;02;09
Speaker 1
Like you could travel around the United States and climb classics and never have to worry about repeating an route. You know, there's just so many climbs out there that

00;27;07;11 - 00;27;30;13
Speaker 1
God, I don't know. I thought the, The history of the cracks down in Indian Creek was so unique. You know, I had climbed other places, but these cracks had little plaques at the bottom on that had, like, a name on it and said, the route, the links, who did it? So it was it was very interesting.

00;27;30;13 - 00;27;51;10
Speaker 1
And I was like, man, maybe one day I could have one of those little plaques of my own. And, you know, as I continue to just fall in love with the creek, I was like, wow, really? What would that take? And it didn't take much besides picking up like a hammer and a drill and asking questions. And the community was great to share with me.

00;27;51;10 - 00;28;20;05
Speaker 1
And a couple people showed me how to do it and what to use and that was it. It just, I, I fell into wanting to put up my own routes and have my own vision of what I thought was cool, because a lot of people think like just regular hand cracks and finger cracks and like obviously the dead split or lines, but there's a lot of, lines in between the lines out there in the desert, if you will, and not a lot of them.

00;28;20;12 - 00;28;21;28
Speaker 1
And climbed.

00;28;21;28 - 00;28;34;00
Speaker 1
You had you had mentioned, in one of your posts that you have a respect for the desert pioneers. And it seems like, you know, you're alluding to these people who were, you know, the first essentialist before you.

00;28;34;02 - 00;28;40;24
Speaker 1
What is the law of Indian Creek? What's the history there? I personally have, never heard this. What's the backstory

00;28;42;01 - 00;29;10;08
Speaker 1
I mean, it's obviously one of the, most splitters sandstone venues on the planet. Like, those cracks go forever, and they require a lot of endurance and a lot of the same cam to do them forever. So they were kind of guarded for years by the fact that you couldn't simply climb these things because they to protect them safely, you would need so many cams.

00;29;10;10 - 00;29;34;01
Speaker 1
Earl Wiggins came along and like, got embossed in this one in the 70s, put up super crack, which is like a long I mean, you know, super crack. And did it with hexes and people couldn't believe that you could just run up something like that, and protected because of the the area was prolific at the time.

00;29;34;01 - 00;30;01;13
Speaker 1
There was only a couple lines up there that had been done. I believe Jimmy Dunn put up the, y crack in like the early mid 70s or something, and it had just enough little breaks and kinks. An Atari could wedge a hex and or 2 pound in a pen and, yeah, the place really just became synonymous with having to have the camming devices to climb these long enduro splitters forever.

00;30;01;28 - 00;30;23;20
Speaker 1
And, a lot of those old timers, they didn't have the cams or they had like a handful of them, or they were sharing cams or something like that. And pull them together to put up some of these masterpieces that are out there, like, Steve Hong put up so many good routes out there that are just like, so five star.

00;30;23;20 - 00;31;00;26
Speaker 1
And you look at them today and it calls for like an armload of cans you'll never have. You'll have to borrow the 16.7 fives it takes to do tricks or for kids or whatever these routes are. And, yeah, he pounded those things out with like, a minimal rack of friends and threw little hexes in. And yeah, so the endurance of doing those long routes and figuring it out and then putting those things up like far before, like good equipment, tons of cams and anything like that was just seems so hard and visionary to me.

00;31;01;20 - 00;31;27;25
Speaker 1
How do you see the. The balance between artistic expression as a climber compared to, like, artistic expression as an artist. Right. Because our medium is the rock. It's the earth, right? It's. It almost is. Like the canvas is already there. It's already the artwork is already done. So what do you see as the climbers role in artistic expression when it comes to climbing?

00;31;29;02 - 00;31;30;18
Speaker 2
I mean.

00;31;30;20 - 00;31;46;21
Speaker 1
It's yeah, it's kind of hard to say. I mean, some of these things, some people see, like, oh with a blank face and like the little chrome sign and they're like, oh, the line goes through there and up over here. And I put the boards here like that to me. I can barely wrap my head around it.

00;31;46;21 - 00;32;18;26
Speaker 1
Like the vision that it takes to do some of these face climbs because like, the splitters are like drawn there. It's like if you have what it takes to climb the thing to the end, that's where it goes, you know, and it's just a matter of selecting the size that'll fit you, you know, because like some of these plumb lines that are like, pure gold's all the way to the top, it's like, dude, that thing will select anybody, you know, but some of these climbs that are like number sixes and humongous wedges said, you know, like those sevens and eights.

00;32;18;29 - 00;32;42;02
Speaker 1
And he got to squirm your body in and pop out and dodge around a rock or anything. Yeah, some of those are very artistic routes and, I don't know, painting the picture in those is definitely a select kind of beauty, because some of the things I've put up out there, you're like, oh man, what a great. And you don't know if anyone will ever climb on you.

00;32;42;02 - 00;33;00;29
Speaker 1
Just like I see it. It's beautiful, I love it. And then some of the things you put like all your heart into and no one ever climbs. And then things you put up as like a little dumpy warm up people love and they're like, oh my God, that thing's five star. I can't believe how amazing it is. You're like, oh, dude.

00;33;07;05 - 00;33;27;13
Speaker 1
For the longest time, I kind of was like, no one will ever repeat these things. Like very selfish endeavor. That first ascension is, you know, is like putting up your own route. You're like, it's my route. I did this, and I never thought anyone would climb it in a million years. And then I had, like, you know, people come up to me like, well, I climb so-and-so.

00;33;27;13 - 00;34;03;25
Speaker 1
And it was a very fun climb. Or this and this. And it was my first climb in the creek and it was a blast. I love that, like any. Yeah, everybody who puts up roots has some kind of weird, weird feeling when someone comes up and tells them there was cool or whatever. And yeah, it's kind of neat over the years to find that people do love on some of those routes that you thought no one would ever get on or, or you.

00;34;03;28 - 00;34;27;03
Speaker 1
Maybe to a degree I like, Carl Kelly started working on that. That book, The Creek Creek book. And I was like, oh, man, I better get some of these routes that I've been looking at. Then I was maybe scared off over what had ever done. So I can get them in the book. And yeah, that was a motivating factor for like a couple months there.

00;34;27;03 - 00;34;50;10
Speaker 1
I put up some real nail biters that might have just been better to go the way of the dinosaur, but they found their way into the analogs of the world because I was like, maybe trying to pin a cool shares badge on my shoulder. I'm not quite sure, but they turned out cool and they made the book, so who knows.

00;34;50;10 - 00;35;00;21
Speaker 1
mean on this topic of kind of sharing, sharing routes like do you have like a black book of like all the routes you've done and have you like documented all of your first ascent, first descents in

00;35;01;18 - 00;35;30;10
Speaker 1
I yeah. Oddly enough, when I first started putting up roots, someone was like, hey, you know, you should write every single one of those down that you do. People might you might enjoy looking at it in the future. And I was like, oh, cool. So I had like the 50 select climbs of Indian Creek. It was like a little thin paper thing that you could get Ahold of before all the guidebooks came out.

00;35;30;13 - 00;35;55;10
Speaker 1
And I kind of started putting in, like, my own little notes inside there. And that book turned into another book, turned into like, a really nice leather thing that I got. And yeah, I've kind of written everything down and documented it all. And, helping Kyle Kelly with that Creek freak book in like 20 1718. Yeah, it really helped me realize that.

00;35;55;10 - 00;36;20;14
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I kind of had a I'd put a lot of work in down there and help me fill in what I had forgotten because, yeah, you spend a decade or two down there, you forget some stuff and remember others. And yeah, so I kind of have kept good track of it.

00;36;20;16 - 00;36;50;21
Speaker 1
That is the current number. I'm like, yeah. And yeah, that was I was going hard at this past two seasons because we have like a whole stopping of the bolting down there issue. Like everywhere in any climbing area in the world. But for yeah, decades, I really haven't had to worry about, putting up first ascents, but recently it's come to be that.

00;36;50;21 - 00;37;22;09
Speaker 1
Yeah, they're going to have some forms of laws and stuff in this and that in regards to who can put up stuff, where and what it can be done. I mean, sounds like a bunch of laws and books and reading, and I've looked at it.

00;37;22;11 - 00;37;43;19
Speaker 1
I mean, it it reads very interesting. I mean, there's huge like page after page that you have to file down, in regards to what you can do, what you can't do. And I know the reason bolting like saving it in world. I don't think it has anything to do with Indian Creek. I'm pretty sure they just pass something through.

00;37;43;19 - 00;38;05;16
Speaker 1
And, I mean, I'm all for, you know, it will do what they want to do. But it is kind of a shame that they are going to be stopping the bolting because there's plenty of climbs down there to keep on putting up. And it's a. I think there's they said there's going to have to be like a selection process.

00;38;05;16 - 00;38;17;21
Speaker 1
And then you're going to have to like, I don't know, show it on paper and then have a bunch of people walk out there and look at it and like, yeah. I mean, yeah, the,

00;38;17;21 - 00;38;26;25
Speaker 1
mean, that's just brings in the question of, like, who the hell is enforcing it? And, like, are are people, like, going up and chopping bolts that haven't been approved by this group

00;38;27;29 - 00;39;13;26
Speaker 1
I mean, the whole Indian Creek scene down there is pretty damn interesting. Like, it's, Yeah, it's it's a lot of area to police and. Yeah, the only user group down there that really uses Indian Creek, like, on the walls are the climbers, you know, like, so some of the and I'm sure, like, you know, everything impacts everything, but the amount of damage the climbers do down there in regards to, like, walking up trails that have been established for years and clipping bullets that are up on the wall that are only anchor bolts, no one's grid bolting any sport climbs down there like, and you know, for years and years people camouflaged their boats.

00;39;13;26 - 00;39;35;25
Speaker 1
You know, people who develop believe in camouflaging their bolts. I don't know, but the impacts there and it's like a hot button issue and the crazy times we live in, who knows what's going to happen? Yeah, I don't know. I know that Indian Creek's really not going anywhere, just short of them putting a gate at like the top of 2 to 11.

00;39;35;25 - 00;39;53;06
Speaker 1
Like people are going to be down there, climb and doing their thing. And yeah, everyone's like, well, how are they going to stop you from bolting? And it's like, well, you know, I've only put myself on Front Street for the past couple of years being like, look at me, swing my hammer. You love it.

00;39;53;08 - 00;39;55;21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;39;55;21 - 00;40;03;09
Speaker 1
basically essentially ban any new routes in the area from ever being developed legally. It's like, what's the real point of

00;40;04;18 - 00;40;22;03
Speaker 1
I don't know how they could do it or how they could even keep track of it, because it's such a vast area. And, I mean, it's an international climbing area. So people come down from all over the world, and if they know they can, they could hear stories of people putting up roots, you know, all the gears, doors.

00;40;22;03 - 00;40;37;17
Speaker 1
So bolts and drills and hammers and they could follow their nose like two can Sam and find a crack that has no anchors on it pretty easily. But I've been doing it for decades. But yeah, I don't know how it's all going to pan out. It should be interesting though.

00;40;38;23 - 00;40;47;05
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I would imagine the entire general community of Indian Creek is against the ban of bolting. I would

00;40;48;25 - 00;41;12;07
Speaker 1
You know, it's so weird because, sure, I think some people definitely up in arms about it, but there's not that many developers down there, and there's even fewer people who, like, spend a lot of time down there doing it 24 seven. There's like a small groups. It's real clicky down there. So there's a couple other clicks that are doing first descents and this and that.

00;41;12;07 - 00;41;30;03
Speaker 1
But I mean, who knows. They're not going to make a big enough splash in the pond of people bitchin for the BLM to be like, oh, we feel bad because there's thousands of routes down there. And there's even more. They're like undocumented that like if you go walking up the weird canyons, you're like, oh my God, what's that?

00;41;30;05 - 00;41;43;00
Speaker 1
Oh, there's anchors out there like that. Yeah. They would have to like, document everyone. I mean, I don't know, it's it seems crazy to me, but who knows?

00;41;43;00 - 00;41;49;14
Speaker 1
your your your first ascents? And you're like, how much of the 665 are public knowledge?

00;41;51;05 - 00;42;09;20
Speaker 1
I send professional recording equipment to every guest to ensure that you get top tier audio and video quality, and those costs add up. Right now, the show is completely ad free and I would love to keep it that way. So have you been to join the climbing majority and want to not only help me cover shipping costs, but keep this podcast ad free?

00;42;09;22 - 00;42;24;05
Speaker 1
Consider joining our Patreon with as little as $3 a month. You can help support the growth of this show. You can find the link in our show notes or head to Patreon.com Slash the Climbing Majority podcast. That's Patreon.com slash the Climbing Majority

00;42;25;10 - 00;42;37;10
Speaker 1
God, I don't know. I know that in a guidebook, quite a few of them are public knowledge, but I.

00;42;37;13 - 00;43;17;26
Speaker 1
Yeah. Maybe something like that. I don't know. Oh maybe half of them. Maybe half.

00;43;19;26 - 00;43;41;20
Speaker 1
God. Probably. No. I helped out a lot with Carl Kelly's book, but there was just a lot of stuff that just didn't make it in there because, you know, he was going on, like, filling that whole book up with all the lore. And first ascension is is like wrangling cats. I mean, no, no one's going to tell you the same story.

00;43;41;20 - 00;43;55;04
Speaker 1
And there, like some of the old timers like I did that and some of the new climbers are like, well, we already did that. And so that book got a lot of my roots in there. But since,

00;43;55;04 - 00;44;12;12
Speaker 1
yeah, since 2018, I've really just been putting them on the Instagram and then putting a plaque at the base and then making my anchors the unique anchors that they are kind of leave a better footprint than anything digital I could ever do.

00;44;12;14 - 00;44;26;01
Speaker 1
Or, I mean, having them in print is always good, but a lot of those roots out there are just literally sitting in the sand, with a plaque at the bottom that says DF and some shiny anchors up top

00;44;26;01 - 00;44;37;14
Speaker 1
because, I quit camouflaging my anchors years ago, an old schooler was like, you know, your climbs will grow lower anchors if you camouflage them too.

00;44;37;14 - 00;45;05;21
Speaker 1
Good. And I was like, what do you mean? And he showed me a couple of his climbs that, in fact groaned lower anchors because people couldn't see his higher up anchors. And that so I was. And he's like. And they brought my climb down to their chickenshit level and I'm like, oh man, maybe I won't camouflage him. And then, yeah, once or twice in my years of doing it for years, I'm like, my plaques gone and this thing has a new name.

00;45;05;21 - 00;45;37;27
Speaker 1
I did this and you can find your plaque laying in the dirt somewhere, and you step back a little bit further and you're like, I can see my anchors. And yeah. So I think like early 2000, I quit camouflaging my, my bolts. And so yeah, they're extra shiny and there's some plaques at the bottom that kind of tell you where they are or you know, what it.

00;45;37;29 - 00;45;45;11
Speaker 1
For sure. It's almost like, Easter egg hunt of, wasted years of my life.

00;45;45;11 - 00;45;48;07
Speaker 2
No,

00;45;48;10 - 00;46;11;05
Speaker 1
But yeah, they're definitely they're all out there. And, you know, some of them. I haven't had any. My roots fall off or fall down or anything. I mean, I have gone up to things and I was like, wow, this looks like a good time. And then find a plaque that I had already written. I had already been there, but I think that just happens, was finding doing all these cracks so many different times.

00;46;11;05 - 00;46;17;14
Speaker 1
And I'm that's a unique story once or twice, but it does happen.

00;46;17;14 - 00;46;21;26
Speaker 1
How many? How minutes. So how many years have you been building roots in Indian Creek?

00;46;22;21 - 00;46;58;24
Speaker 1
I'd say about 30 years. I put my first first ascent up down there in like 97, 96, something like that. Yes it is. I mean, yeah, I climb for a couple years before I got that bug, but yeah, it was, yeah, I just I don't know what I would have done with my life. I don't know, I've seen a lot of my friends do other things and whatnot, but that Indian Creek just got it called me, and I've never really looked back.

00;46;58;24 - 00;47;17;01
Speaker 1
I just wanted to, climb as many of those splitters down there as I can. And like I said, never in a million years cow did I think I'd be as prolific as I was. It wasn't until that Instagram and people were like, whoa, you're doing cool shit. And I was like, maybe I am.

00;47;17;16 - 00;47;30;15
Speaker 1
Yeah. So on that topic of Instagram, kind of circling back to kind of where we left the the tangent there, you had mentioned that brands started reaching out to you and stuff like. Yeah, I think in our meet and greet, you mentioned that you were sponsored for a little bit. Was that

00;47;30;27 - 00;47;55;26
Speaker 1
Yeah, totally. I had, it was interesting. It was one of those things where I ended up teaming up with, like, a very popular in vogue off with climber at the same time as myself. And, it was like, yeah, I had someone who I thought was like, you know, who I looked up to in the industry reach out to me and be like, hey, do you want to go climb off with cracks?

00;47;55;26 - 00;48;18;17
Speaker 1
I'm in off with climber and I'm like, wow, dude, no way does anyone want to climb off with cracks to, yeah. And it kind of swept me up in a whole whirlwind of going out on the road and climbing full time and climbing off with cracks and doing cool shit like that. And it was. Yeah, it was very interesting, super fun.

00;48;18;19 - 00;48;41;25
Speaker 1
Cool part of my life, I haven't really slowed down. I still do interesting, cool stuff. But yeah, for a little bit there, it was cool to, I go to Outdoor Retailer and see all this stuff and see all the people. And yeah, it was interesting to see, like, the names and meet everybody you looked up to and be like, Holy shit, they're real person.

00;48;41;28 - 00;48;59;25
Speaker 1
But it was also kind of weird because you go to Outdoor Retailer and you have a badge that has your name on it right here. And like, everyone can walk up to me like, hey, Devin, how's it going? And you're like, hi, Dale. Dale, how's it going? And they're like, no, I'm not. I'm borrowing his badge. It's Mitch.

00;48;59;25 - 00;49;14;24
Speaker 1
We met over at so-and-so climbing and you're like, fuck, I don't know. It's like if Instagram was a real place. I'd say that's what Outdoor Retailer was like.

00;49;14;26 - 00;49;19;07
Speaker 1
A good 3 or 4 years.

00;49;19;07 - 00;49;25;02
Speaker 1
happened towards the end of it? Like, was it a personal choice to kind of exit the scene? What was that kind of transition like?

00;49;25;11 - 00;49;49;21
Speaker 1
Yeah, totally. I mean, I don't know, the industry if you will, can be like, a weirdly toxic place. In regards to the clicks you're in, who you're climbing with, who you're out there seen, with, what you're doing, what kind of photos are you getting? Like, who's taking your photo? Like how much reach are you getting on your Instagram?

00;49;49;21 - 00;50;11;00
Speaker 1
Like, people fucking care. And so do sponsors and so do companies. And like, you have to have, like, that's so much a look or whatever. But there's certain things you have to do and maintain, you know, to, I wouldn't say fit into the box, but like, you can't really deviate.

00;50;11;03 - 00;50;24;01
Speaker 1
For sure. And I wouldn't say that the industry cherry picks who they want and whatnot. And like, it's not like, oh, you got to know who you know. But it's kind of like that, you know, like.

00;50;24;01 - 00;50;32;20
Speaker 1
it's a tight community, even even with this podcast and and just talking to all the people that I do, it does seem like a pretty tight, community.

00;50;33;07 - 00;50;54;16
Speaker 1
It it for sure is. And, I wouldn't say by any means that it was toxic, but there are toxic elements when you get people together like that. And like I said, it became clicky and groupie and like, if you weren't climbing with so-and-so and this people and what do you think about so-and-so? And it's like, dude, it's only rock climbing.

00;50;54;16 - 00;51;16;27
Speaker 1
I mean, I'm a fucking old man. Like, I don't even care. Like, all this seems like high school stuff. And I did shitty in high school, so and, I mean, that was just like, kind of my experience was that in that was like a very small portion of me in the industry, but nonetheless, it's enough to make you be like, oof,

00;51;16;27 - 00;51;20;19
Speaker 1
maybe just climbing and having a good time is where it's at.

00;51;20;19 - 00;51;40;11
Speaker 1
And like, doing as much as you can for your community is, like, more important than, let's say, having like a good sponsorship and going all over the place to climb and pump people up and this and that, like, I love doing that, but I like doing it in my own community. As opposed to trying to tell everybody how badass I am.

00;51;40;11 - 00;52;08;12
Speaker 1
And I climb the hardest thing that they'll never be able to do. They can check it out on my little box, but if you want to get out there and do it like you have to dedicate your fucking life and have this in there to climb that grade. And that's fun and all. I mean, I totally support people who are into that, but the amount of self-promotion and pumping that you have to do that to make yourself a brand and everything and make it all work and hit on all the cylinders to make it work, to be a living.

00;52;08;14 - 00;52;32;16
Speaker 1
It's kind of anti what climbing is, you know, like if some of the old schoolers could see what it's become and, you know, some of them are still alive to this day and you see like a nice, great wrinkly picture of that on Instagram. And they got like fucking why would 200 followers like, no way does so-and-so, the legend, have that many followers?

00;52;32;16 - 00;52;54;21
Speaker 1
And you're like, oh, that's right, because it's not really real. Like zero, they did their shit and it's like on paper and everyone knows. But yeah, it's weird the way people hold value to like a number behind, like a thing on a little box, you know, that like only portrays what you see through that box. You know?

00;52;55;01 - 00;52;56;10
Speaker 1
In that box is completely

00;52;57;21 - 00;53;02;20
Speaker 1
Oh.

00;53;02;22 - 00;53;06;25
Speaker 2
I perfectly.

00;53;06;27 - 00;53;28;29
Speaker 1
Oh, for sure. And like, I mean, I kind of knew that the whole time I was out rock climbing and, like, picking up the magazines and being like, wow, look at that photo. Look at the light. Like so-and-so must have just been there at the right time. And no, do. That's not the case. Like the the fucking reality of it is like, you sit there on a rope freezing in there, like, can you do that?

00;53;28;29 - 00;53;49;08
Speaker 1
Move one more time to Evan, and you're like, this is what they call the crux. Like, I can barely hang on, like, you want me to do that again. And yeah, and that was like, not the norm, but like, yeah, they expect stuff and like, but it's cool. You know, you see these pictures and you're like, look at that image or yeah, for sure.

00;53;49;11 - 00;54;08;13
Speaker 1
And like with the Instagram you can catch all those great little images and like put them in diluted on the box and put cool music to it. And like people will build you up and be like, yo, you're the blah blah blah. And I'm like, yo, you know, like I'm down here climbing like five, zero, five, eight. And coaches, they're like, where is that?

00;54;08;13 - 00;54;17;08
Speaker 1
And I'm like, it's right there on the gram. A wall. Like I saw someone walk up there was, you know, like it's yeah, it's not that big of a thing.

00;54;17;08 - 00;54;33;22
Speaker 1
you've built yourself up enough over the years where I'm sure it doesn't even matter what you're climbing. Someone's going to see it and be like I want to get on that. You know Devin's climber. It must be sick. It must be good. And it probably is. You know, it's probably awesome. You probably have an eye for, for great routes and and having fun.

00;54;33;22 - 00;54;43;01
Speaker 1
And I think that's like, it seems like that's what you're alluding to is like, you stepped away because you found yourself not happy, right? You just like.

00;54;43;06 - 00;55;02;02
Speaker 1
Not not happy, but, like, seeing it for what it is. You know what I'm saying? Like, I never came into it like that. I came into it as like I'm down here doing what I love. And then, like, I got swept up in a whirlwind of it. But, yo, I'm guilty of being, like, sensationalized and seeing what it was all about.

00;55;02;02 - 00;55;26;28
Speaker 1
And like, being able to travel and, like, have a budget and like, okay, I've had to worry about food, being a climber, worried about clothes and like cams and then you don't have to worry about that. Like, yo, sky's the limits. Then you can like really curate those photos to make it look like you're harder than a coffin nail when actuality you're lounge and eating good food, like with your clean clothes.

00;55;26;29 - 00;55;49;08
Speaker 1
Like cool story. But yeah, that's kind of not really. Doesn't really to me it doesn't. It's not climbing, you know, don't get me wrong, there's a the industry thrives on that, you know. And I love it like it's super cool. Don't get me wrong, I love it when a company likes my thing or reaches out.

00;55;49;08 - 00;55;51;12
Speaker 1
does lifestyle wasn't sustainable for you or.

00;55;54;04 - 00;56;10;15
Speaker 1
catalyst for the pivot between kind of like existing in that world and finding a happy medium and kind of like finding a dance there versus just like putting your nose down, getting to the grindstone and committing to a life of like finding your own way to to live day to day climbing.

00;56;11;02 - 00;56;40;19
Speaker 1
Maybe I'm going to have to honestly say my peers and my people, that were my real friends throughout. Like, everything, you know, they were just like, yo, remember when you would just be out there having a good old time and I'm like, shit, I'm a sellout. Like, you know what I'm saying? But like on that weird level to where like you're out doing the fun shit, you like to call me a sellout, I'm getting paid and having a good time.

00;56;40;21 - 00;57;02;06
Speaker 1
And not like that. It made me pivot a bunch, but like, you have to, like, you go through stuff like that with it being clicky and climbing with these people and climbing with that people, and you realize, like, yeah, man, everyone's just a climber. And yeah, it's maybe not losing friends, but like, seeing friends avoid me because of who I was climbing with and what I was doing.

00;57;02;06 - 00;57;18;18
Speaker 1
And then I guess, step back and I'm like, oh, Jesus, I wasn't like, the best friend I could have been. But, I mean, whatever recedes, I don't know.

00;57;18;21 - 00;57;20;16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;57;20;16 - 00;57;33;06
Speaker 1
I want to dissect a couple things that you you had mentioned there and some of your monologues. You had said, like, climbing full time, doing what I do every day. It never loses its fun or its appeal.

00;57;36;19 - 00;57;58;08
Speaker 1
How? Like I understand the allure of climbing. I'm a climber. I it's a huge passion of mine. I've built a climbing podcast around the sport. I think about it all the time. But I have definitely gotten to a place in my life where it became climbing. Like the physical act of climbing became. So like much of a focus for me that I like, neglected.

00;57;58;08 - 00;58;15;11
Speaker 1
I felt like I was neglecting other areas in my life. And it led to kind of like unhappiness. So how have you found a source of of passion and happiness in climbing? So fulfilling that it has just kind of like been there for you this entire time?

00;58;15;11 - 00;58;20;14
Speaker 1
God, I you know, I really don't know.

00;58;20;14 - 00;58;41;28
Speaker 1
I think some people will take, like, their whole life to figure out what they're meant to do and how shit should work for them and what makes them happy. And this go around in this life, I. I was lucky enough to find rock climbing. And it was like this thing that I needed.

00;58;41;28 - 00;59;04;10
Speaker 1
I didn't know I needed it, I didn't know it was going to fulfill every ounce and every being of my fiber, doing it every day, like, I can't, like, oh my God. Like even on my rest days, I'm I'm pacing in camp and Molly's like, dude, just go for a walk. And I'm like, a walk is not going to do it, you know?

00;59;04;10 - 00;59;38;11
Speaker 1
And yeah, I just I love rock climbing to like, a fault, just being out there and moving around like just the struggles of it all, like I, you know, I live outside full time, like, it's awesome to, like, make it work. Like, it's truly fun to just be out existing and then rock climbing be the catalyst, because I knew if I have a house that I have to pay rent on, I couldn't be out rock climbing every day.

00;59;38;13 - 00;59;54;24
Speaker 1
I know if I have like, other things like, like a job and all this stuff, I couldn't be out rock climbing every day. So yeah, I do whatever I have to do to, like, make enough money to sustain my rock climbing outside full time.

00;59;54;24 - 01;00;02;29
Speaker 1
And I don't know why. I've never lost a passion. I've never even had a time where I was like, wow, I don't think I, I think I went on vacation to Florida once and I freaked out.

01;00;02;29 - 01;00;10;17
Speaker 1
There was nothing to climb. Yeah, I did some, like kayaking and stuff and it was super cool. But like

01;00;10;17 - 01;00;16;03
Speaker 1
driving by the overpasses, I was like, oh, there goes the splitter. I saw it underneath that bridge.

01;00;16;03 - 01;00;20;25
Speaker 1
I don't know what it is. Some. Yeah, some people are.

01;00;20;25 - 01;00;34;06
Speaker 2
said. I think that you are correct. I think a lot of people lack purpose. I think that's like a huge epidemic in, in societies, people don't really know what they are here to do. And I think it's beautiful that you found that,

01;00;34;06 - 01;00;44;16
Speaker 2
It's easy to say, like, look, you you've dedicated your entire life to climbing, but I feel like that statement might, like, wash out other aspects of your existence. And maybe I'm

01;01;01;15 - 01;01;04;05
Speaker 1
God! Oh, man.

01;01;04;05 - 01;01;30;00
Speaker 1
as far as, like anything in my life goes, I just honestly try to rock climb. Like I don't have any other passions. I don't like paint on the side. I'm not, like, good at other things. I mean, maybe I am good at other things, I don't know. But I really don't really have other things that, and I'm not like missing anything where I'm like, oh, that's right, water polo.

01;01;30;00 - 01;01;59;04
Speaker 1
Like, no, I, I literally get enough of the element out of climbing. And maybe it's like the rat race involved in trying to figure out how to rock climb full time. That really fills my cup day to day. Yeah. I don't know, like, it's that's that's a question I wasn't ready to answer. I was like, oh man, I should have my paintings in the background and be like, here's what I do.

01;01;59;09 - 01;02;01;29
Speaker 1
Like. And.

01;02;01;29 - 01;02;21;26
Speaker 2
you know you, you, it's all, it's supporting the passion to climb every day. And that is a skill set in its own. And what does that look like. Like what, what do you do on a day to day basis to support yourself? Because I think there's a there's a large allure to kind of living your lifestyle and like, living in the van and climbing every day.

01;02;21;26 - 01;02;38;15
Speaker 2
I think every climber goes through the stage where that's like what they want to do, and then they like, you know, come to reality and realize that one, it's not possible, or they have other passions and then they might like, go get a job and then they, you know, get the whatever goal they wanted. And then they start, you know, shopping for vans again.

01;02;38;15 - 01;02;49;13
Speaker 2
And they're like, well, maybe I want to go on the road and live in a van again and commit my life to climbing. So I think there's always that allure to every climber to to live the life that you're living. So how do you

01;02;52;02 - 01;03;13;01
Speaker 1
So, honestly, like, I. I don't have a car. I haven't had a car in, like, six years. Like, I found that when I started climbing full time, I didn't need a car. I had a a partner who was driving around, and I was like, dude, my car is just sitting here. I'm paying insurance and everything. So I nixed the car.

01;03;13;04 - 01;03;34;02
Speaker 1
So that was like a huge savings. Got rid of my house and I lived in, which was amazing. Like, I didn't have to pay any overhead. My kid moved out. So what do I need a house for? Kind of threw stuff into, like, my folks storage, you know? So I was like, all right. No, paint on any storage.

01;03;34;02 - 01;03;58;12
Speaker 1
once I kind of cut all my ties to, like, what I would call financial burdens. Like, if you're trying to live on the road full time and climb, I figured I didn't need to work a full time job, and I had enough money saved up from being an athlete or whatever. When I was climbing, I was like, dude, I'm going to do this full time.

01;03;58;15 - 01;04;24;23
Speaker 1
And, yeah, just kind of the seed money from selling my house and, you know, not paying rent and everything like that and car and everything, I was able to launch myself into maybe climbing full time. And then, yeah, I've just done anything and everything. I could make it by, you know, becoming somewhat prolific on the Instagram.

01;04;24;28 - 01;04;52;26
Speaker 1
Paid for a little bit. You know, they meta paid you to post your videos or whatever. And that was an awesome deal for, like, I don't know, like 2 or 3 years, which helped me. It didn't give me a lot of money, but it gave me enough to get by, you know, and then like working odd jobs, doing things here and there as a regular rock climber and then always having like a good partner because there's always people who are down to go climb.

01;04;52;29 - 01;05;13;11
Speaker 1
That's been kind of like a big, a big help in regards to like not having a car or anything like that. Not that I couldn't afford one, but like, yeah, everyone's going, dude, everyone's always going climbing. Especially if you bounce in between venues. It's like there's always room in someone's car.

01;05;13;11 - 01;05;31;25
Speaker 2
And how do you. How do you see this panning out like in the next ten, 20, 30 years, like, do you, are you still running on savings like, have you found a balance to where you and your you're, you're able to either save or be like a net, you know, neutral where you're not having to see some sort of cliff or end to where you're going to have to make some sort of decision.

01;05;32;17 - 01;05;52;17
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, I don't know, I think about that like every season I'm like, oh, dude, this is the season when you're going to run out of money and all the numbers aren't going to fall in the right place, and it's not going to work out for you. And I know that's no way to live, but, yeah, it kind of seems to work out every season.

01;05;52;17 - 01;06;10;27
Speaker 1
I make it to the next season and keep going. I mean, in the long run, what? I want to become like a guide or something or have, like Devin Specialty Clinics, where you come out and climb with me in the desert or something like that. I mean, something like, that's always an option. I think about that all the time.

01;06;10;27 - 01;06;42;20
Speaker 1
People are like, yo, you should run your own little clinics and do things like that. And you're so prolific out in Indian Creek. It's like a lot of people, you know, teach crack climbing clinics and make a pretty penny out there. I see it all the time. So maybe something like that, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I mean, I could always become a greeter at Walmart that, you know, I got good forearms, maybe, like, how's it going?

01;06;42;22 - 01;07;08;02
Speaker 1
I mean, honestly, I kind of thought about it when, a couple years ago, I was in Vera Wu. You know, climb in. It's rough. It's a rough area. And you can buy, like, elbow pads and, like, arm thing, so you don't get torn to shit. And, my partner at the time, Jamie Busby, was like, yo, check this out.

01;07;08;04 - 01;07;30;13
Speaker 1
And we put our arms in some, like, I put my arms in one of her pants and, like, chopped them off. And they became like, dude, skinny jeans, like, arm things. And I was like, yo, let me get these pants. This is a fucking amazing idea. And yeah, like subsequently, like people from all over the world like it.

01;07;30;18 - 01;07;54;14
Speaker 1
And like, people in, like, Spain be like, I have your elbow pads. We made them. And I'm like, fuck yeah, but yeah, maybe some sweet jean elbow merger, I don't know, I mean, there's, there's ways to capitalize on the industry and I don't, I don't know I mean and that would like again like dude it would really eat into my full time climbing type of deal.

01;07;54;17 - 01;08;26;26
Speaker 1
And I mean what you got to like have shoot to mail out and and like things. And how do I make these cool, these cool belts out of, webbing. Because know whenever I'm out in the desert, there's old webbing, like, hanging on the anchors. And I've tried over the years to chop and shit down and put chain on them, and, I saved the belt or, you know, the webbing, and I put, like, buckles on the end of them, and, I give them to my friends as, like, time died belts.

01;08;26;28 - 01;08;43;28
Speaker 1
Because the tie, the where the knot is, if you untie it, it looks really cool. It's like, got, like a pattern in it looks all tie dyed, but it's, like, bleached by the sun. So maybe some sweet time dyed belts in, like, jean elbow pads in my future. Check out my channel for my merch.

01;08;53;29 - 01;09;13;23
Speaker 1
Yeah, dude. I mean, something like that. And. Yeah, that that blows my mind. I mean, because I look at, like I said, my peers like people. I really look up to in the industry. And I see that they have, like, less followers than me, and that doesn't mean anything. But I'm like, I must be doing something right.

01;09;13;23 - 01;09;55;16
Speaker 1
People are seeing what I'm doing and I try not to deviate from like you'll never see on my Instagram, me crying about spilled milk or anything or my life problems. It's just pretty much strictly climbing and some music and like, maybe like a good message in there. Like try not to keep it negative because they.

01;09;55;19 - 01;10;29;20
Speaker 1
Oh, because yeah. I mean yeah, I've seen people like famous climbers. I get really worked up over their feeds not doing good. Or. There's this video's trash. I'm taking it down. I'm like, well, dude, that's like a cool video. Like, it tells a story. Like, you shouldn't take it down. It's interesting, you know? And just because the algorithm doesn't like it that day or something like that, like, and I mean, yeah, when you see stuff like that or people get on there and make some like pretty broad, comments on your life and like what you do, you're like, oh shit.

01;10;29;23 - 01;10;49;01
Speaker 1
You know, dear Bill, 1984, I hate your mom. Like, you know, what are you what are you going to do in the like, call your life's work trash and that you should fall to your death? You're like, whoa, should I stop bolting and try not to fall? Like, you know, it's it's not real. None of that real. Those people are just on the internet.

01;10;49;01 - 01;11;11;22
Speaker 1
But yeah, it's it's crazy that it's it is the place that it is and that it even has like a foothold in climbing whatsoever. Like, you know, I mean, I love it like I said, I get to show people what I'm doing. I've met more amazing people through the Instagram and my rock climbing, being out there in the ether somewhere.

01;11;11;22 - 01;11;16;07
Speaker 1
Then I could maybe just be in who I am. I don't know.

01;11;17;09 - 01;11;22;00
Speaker 2
I think you found a nice balance. And people love it. So I just keep doing what you're doing, man.

01;11;22;21 - 01;11;29;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I like, I don't like I said, I don't have any other interests. I don't know what I would do with my free time.

01;11;31;00 - 01;11;49;13
Speaker 2
read a comment on one of your posts. It said, you're a machine. Do you ever fall? And I think I want to pose the question, you know, do you fall? And with that question comes like, what is your view on managing risk as a trad climber?

01;11;49;16 - 01;11;50;17
Speaker 2
In the creek.

01;11;52;12 - 01;11;55;04
Speaker 1
If you've been enjoying the climbing majority, please rate.

01;11;55;04 - 01;11;56;27
Speaker 2
And review us wherever you get

01;11;58;17 - 01;12;21;09
Speaker 1
So, I mean, yeah, I, I have fallen, I have been hurt. But in regards to, like, filming and, like, climbing and, like, posting a video of myself falling, like, I don't think I would ever do that. Like, I think.

01;12;21;09 - 01;12;38;08
Speaker 2
in like, the realm of social media and your your digital presence and more talking about your own personal growth as a trad climber and like how you've developed your own personal risk assessment, like, what was that injury and how did it kind of was it significant enough to kind of shape your, perspective on how you manage

01;12;39;25 - 01;13;04;03
Speaker 1
Oh, for sure. I, I fell and blasted my elbow like, pretty bad and, you know, had to have some surgery on it. And, you know, traverses are dangerous. Like, as climbers, you never want to traverse and yeah, I slipped doing some traversing shit and, like, wiped out my elbow pretty bad. Didn't think I'd be able to climb ever again.

01;13;04;03 - 01;13;34;28
Speaker 1
It was like, oh man, that's a big mistake. I'm never going to make that same mistake again. But it's like simple things are what get you. You know, it wasn't a hard climb. It was a somewhat easy climb. I was traversing sideways and slipped and yeah, put my arm into the wall and busted my elbow a bad. And it put me out for like a good, good year for sure of not being able to climb at all, not even be able to strain my like they said, I'd never be able to strain my arm.

01;13;35;00 - 01;13;45;10
Speaker 1
Like, yeah, it was a it was a good one. Like,

01;13;45;12 - 01;14;17;17
Speaker 1
It was the my tibia. Whatever. The two big bones are in your arm blasted out my elbow like, yeah, yeah. And it would, Yeah, a compound fracture. Whatever. Doctor Kim Furry put me back together. Shout at Doctor Kim. Very. And, yeah, I wouldn't be the athlete I am today if it wasn't for, you know, getting my arm fixed, going through all of that and, like, working it back.

01;14;17;20 - 01;14;39;07
Speaker 1
And yeah, I was scared, man, for ever after that. Like, even to this day, I'm scared of, like, falling and hitting my arm and bashing my elbow or clipping my ankle. I mean, you're climbing long enough. You've seen it all like, unfortunately, I've seen, like, some pretty bad accidents in all my years. And, yeah, you never want to be that dude.

01;14;39;07 - 01;14;48;25
Speaker 1
But then when you are that dude, you're like, whoa, I don't want to climb anymore. It's not an option. Like, you got to get back at it. Nice.

01;14;48;25 - 01;15;05;03
Speaker 2
common thread with everybody I talked to. And I guess it's it's different for a person and person, but. And I wonder if it's the same in other sports, like getting injured that bad. And I've yet to meet someone that has even questioned like, oh, I don't know if I'm going to do that again.

01;15;05;03 - 01;15;14;19
Speaker 2
Everybody is like, oh, I'm like already counting down the days until I can get back out there and like go climb again. What do you what do you think about the sport? It draws us back.

01;15;16;01 - 01;15;40;17
Speaker 1
I don't know. I think that, you know, climbing in itself is very adrenaline based. You know, you're you're pushing it. You're getting higher. You're in danger of falling. I mean, nobody will tell you, like, you know, I've been a top rope climber for 50 years. It's the best thing ever. Like, you start lead climbing at some point, you know, you get up there to get up there and you push it.

01;15;40;20 - 01;16;04;06
Speaker 1
And yeah, I don't know, it's something like some form of addiction to where even at like all costs, you'll go back to it and see if you can figure it out and get better at rock climbing or whatever. You know, that ended you up there. Like, I know a lot of rock climbers who've gotten her, I very few of them I know have gotten hurt and quit.

01;16;04;06 - 01;16;14;01
Speaker 1
The game just seems to be the drive of rock climbing. It's just one of those weird addictions, I suppose.

01;16;14;19 - 01;16;32;28
Speaker 2
What are your thoughts behind the idea of, like the phrase if you're not falling, you're not trying? Do you feel like that translates to trad climbing? Do you find that that is a common trope in your community as a climber?

01;16;33;27 - 01;16;58;27
Speaker 1
I hear that a lot. I hear, you know, if you're not, if you're not following, you're not trying. I try to mitigate risk as much as I can in regards to, like, not fall, but, I mean, I guess you all have to fall if we want to try real hard, but I like to almost get to the point dialed where I won't even try something unless I know I can almost do it because I hate failure.

01;16;58;27 - 01;17;23;20
Speaker 1
I hate not being able to do something, you know? So there are ways you can mitigate that risk by like building yourself up to that point where you're like, dude, I'll go 20ft above that cam, you know, or I'll run it out. I'll dodge that rock or make it around this. You know, I think it's like.

01;17;23;22 - 01;17;45;13
Speaker 1
Totally. I mean, if yeah, if you've taken the time to learn your craft and practiced hard enough and spent all the hours, it should almost just be, you know, fluid when you do it. Of course, we all fall. We all slip and fail at some point. But yeah, I wouldn't. I don't try to practice falling at all.

01;17;45;14 - 01;17;52;12
Speaker 1
Like, I don't take like a victory where if I don't try to see if my cams work, I mean,

01;17;52;12 - 01;18;16;28
Speaker 2
I know right. Yeah. So okay. There's a fine delineation here I want to get out. So when we climb we have this like connection to the rock. And we know how close we are to either getting to Pom or getting to that line of like okay I might the chances of me coming off a really high now obviously like random foot slips and just like randomly popping off the wall is a different story.

01;18;17;05 - 01;18;38;14
Speaker 2
But I feel like we get to this place where we have a choice to put a cam in and rest, or we have a choice to, like you, choose to fall, right? Do do you? In those kind of circumstances, do you ever choose to fall or would you in that instance like put a cam in and taken rest?

01;18;39;19 - 01;18;41;19
Speaker 1
Oh.

01;18;41;19 - 01;18;57;17
Speaker 1
I have taken a good fall or two of. I knew it was, like, clean, and the piece down there was good, but, man, those widgets can do the craziest things. You can, like, look at them wrong, and they can go a little bit askew. And then, like, you're above and you're like, I'm just going to take this Weber.

01;18;57;17 - 01;19;17;02
Speaker 1
Oh, dude, no way. I will feed a cam in right at my waist and clip myself to is so fast. If I have that ability. Just. I'm not saying because I'm old and chicken shit, but if I don't have to fall, I won't. But yeah, I'll I'll take one for the team. I'll go flying off the wall here and there if I have to.

01;19;17;05 - 01;19;26;14
Speaker 1
And often if you get enough, will and forethought to put it in a cam and like clip yourself to it, you just clip the rope to and keep rocking, you know, like.

01;19;26;16 - 01;19;27;21
Speaker 2
Since and.

01;19;27;23 - 01;19;28;25
Speaker 1
Try harder. I don't.

01;19;28;25 - 01;19;31;15
Speaker 2
Know.

01;19;31;15 - 01;19;45;08
Speaker 2
conversation to have because, I mean, I injured myself pretty bad, choosing to take a fall. So now I'm like the the advocate for, like, taking, you know, just just to try to balance the scales a little bit, you know, it's like,

01;19;45;08 - 01;19;51;28
Speaker 2
for me, it's not worth the risk of, like, the hubris of just like, oh, like I could try harder and go for it.

01;19;51;28 - 01;19;55;00
Speaker 2
It's like, I'll just take it and come back when I'm stronger or whatever. Like,

01;19;55;00 - 01;20;12;27
Speaker 2
to me, it's more about the longevity of, like, climbing until I'm old rather than, you know, the fear of like, oh, this person, that mania or the judgment of myself and myself be like, I can't believe I took, you know, I'm such a bitch, you know, like, I just think it's, an interesting thing to talk about, especially somebody who has been climbing as long as you have.

01;20;12;29 - 01;20;31;19
Speaker 2
I think, you know, your point of view is a lot more impactful than, you know, one of my own. It's like, what is someone that's been climbing as long as you have and put up as many routes as you have, like, what is your mentality when it comes to risk? Because I think a lot of new climbers can blindly just hear that, oh, if you're not falling, you're not trying and kind of take that a little bit too much to heart.

01;20;32;09 - 01;20;58;26
Speaker 1
No. I think it as climbing as long as I have. It's a day to day struggle to those voices where, like, oh, I'm a bitch. Like, oh, my God, every day, like we were on some five, nine day before yesterday down here. And it's flabby and spooky and like, the distance between bolts can be humongous, but it was like two body lengths and I knew it was nine plus and I was I was down sparkle motion.

01;20;58;26 - 01;21;17;09
Speaker 1
I grabbed that drawer and I was like, take me right there, Molly. I'm with sit here and think about it. And yeah, just because I didn't want to like maybe get above that piece and like sprained my ankle, you know, like it's and it's like it's a, it's five nine, you know. Oh you should be able to fall.

01;21;17;09 - 01;21;21;18
Speaker 1
And I'm sure it would have been a totally fine fall in this in that. But

01;21;21;18 - 01;21;40;21
Speaker 1
weird stuff happens. It's rock climbing is inherently dangerous. It says on all those stickers. And I truly believe in that. And I, I'm, I'm here for like, I want to be here for a long time climbing rocks. I don't want to bust myself up and get hurt on something simple.

01;21;40;21 - 01;21;46;18
Speaker 1
Like, I'm a big fan of like the stick clip, like, oh my God, I think that's the smartest invention ever.

01;21;46;18 - 01;21;52;28
Speaker 1
Does it soften you up? Sure. But twisted ankles really soften you up.

01;21;55;25 - 01;22;17;27
Speaker 1
Right. Yeah. I think the best thing you can do is to, try to alleviate all the factors of getting hurt, taking a fall or anything like that. Like the. When I started climbing, the guys who were taking me down to Indian Creek, they, you know, they didn't want me lowering on their rope. They didn't want me taken on top rope.

01;22;17;27 - 01;22;36;23
Speaker 1
They're like, you know, if you can't do this in three tries without hanging on my rope like you, three strikes and you're out. So if I thought I was going to have a hard time, I'd bring a cam and plug it in on top rope. So I didn't wait my buddy's rope and, like, pull all the stretch out of it because it only has four falls in it.

01;22;36;23 - 01;22;57;19
Speaker 1
They give you a little number with how many falls your rope can take. And yeah, so I was brought up like, don't weight the system unless you have to and you get to the top and you clip in and you pull the rope and you repel because lower and up and down like weakened your rope in. Yeah. So never waiting.

01;22;57;19 - 01;23;19;12
Speaker 1
All jobs were yours, you know what I'm saying? Kind of like there was no muscles when I was growing up. There was like, you had to have the skill to be able to clip in and thread the rope and repel down or, you know, no one lowered or anything like that. It was kind of. Yeah, it's kind of weird the way stuff has come along.

01;23;19;12 - 01;23;44;09
Speaker 1
And I mean, I'm a fan of the Muzzy Hook, but it's kind of weird the way they're everywhere now. And people can't like, go in, direct and repel. Okay.

01;23;44;11 - 01;24;04;08
Speaker 1
For sure. It's kind of strange. I mean, I like the, I like the new generation of climbers and making everything super accessible, but I think there's certain things that everyone should know how to repel and, like, be able to, like, thread the anchors and stuff like.

01;24;04;10 - 01;24;06;09
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;24;06;09 - 01;24;22;16
Speaker 2
you had said something else in a in a video. He said, and this is a quote cracks can change on car matic waves and decide whether you fit or not. It's what is. So talk to me about what you, what you meant

01;24;23;26 - 01;24;38;10
Speaker 1
So, I mean, I don't know, you you walk around in the desert long enough and you'll look up at something and you think, oh man, that thing's that perfect hand crack up. And we go up there and do it and get up there and the lights change, and it's like a fist crack and you're like, oh, that sucks.

01;24;38;10 - 01;24;55;28
Speaker 1
This is not the hand crack that I came up here to do. And you know, whether you had some kind of reservations about it, you're thinking, oh, man, I deserve that hand crack. That's up and it's going to be awesome. And you show up there and you maybe only have one for on you and a bunch and pancakes, cams and like, why?

01;24;55;28 - 01;25;13;00
Speaker 1
Why did that change? Because I saw it the other day and it was perfect. Hands. I worked my ass off to get up here and what the hell? And then other times you'll look up and see something. You'll be like, oh God, that is, you know, the hardest thing on earth. I don't even want to go. I'm going to try it.

01;25;13;02 - 01;25;33;18
Speaker 1
And then you get up there and it's that perfect hand crack, and you weasel right through and get to the top, and you're like, what did I do? Like, how are these cracks not doing what they say? How are they changing so, so often? And then you kind of like read way too much into it and you're like, oh, the I was I was on one that weekend thinking good thoughts, doing good stuff.

01;25;33;18 - 01;26;01;15
Speaker 1
And you know all every corner I turned, you know, it was like the perfect crack doing exactly what I wanted to. And then sometimes I'd turn corners and it was nothing but hard times and crusher stuff that almost put me out, you know? But yeah. So some of those cracks, they I do believe, in fact, if you, if you put enough thought and energy in things, they can literally change in.

01;26;01;18 - 01;26;35;24
Speaker 1
Yeah. I've seen some of those cracks go from being, like, a nightmare to, like, the best thing I've ever climbed and sitting up there being amazing. Right. Yeah. It's it's weird. Shadows play a game. And I mean, there's. You ever even heard stories from, like, old schoolers that, like, the finger cracks change ever so slightly. So you got to get up there and climb it when it's cold, because during the day, the crack will open up just a little bit with the heat, and it'll make that much of a difference in your life when these actually do change.

01;26;35;24 - 01;26;38;13
Speaker 1
So yeah.

01;26;38;16 - 01;26;46;14
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;26;46;16 - 01;26;47;08
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;26;47;11 - 01;27;10;23
Speaker 1
So yeah there's stories of people leaving cams in the crack come back in the morning and they you know they're like tight and they could barely get them out and leaving them through the middle of the day. And all the cams had slid out. Yeah. Just not that it's much of a change but just enough to I don't know how thermodynamics or anything works.

01;27;10;25 - 01;27;34;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. And some of these cracks really, they do greases. Yeah. And in the hot months down there, some of the better cracks to climb or the wider ones because they're like pumping air conditioning out because it's all the cold air that's inside from the night of the whole system of cracks during the hot part of the day flushes all out.

01;27;35;00 - 01;27;52;09
Speaker 1
So during the summertime months is best, best to climb some wide stuff because it's a lot cooler. It's like.

01;27;52;11 - 01;28;05;24
Speaker 1
I mean, I that be a good test to see how far back they go. I've never had a depth meter to go in.

01;28;05;26 - 01;28;30;13
Speaker 1
The I mean, some of the bigger fissures that you run into, which are just larger versions of the small ones. Man, you'd be surprised they go way back in some of the cooler climes that found over the years are the lines that are hidden behind the lines. You know, like you walk by a blank panel of wall forever, and then they'll be like a corner, and it's like a little tunnel going through.

01;28;30;13 - 01;28;54;04
Speaker 1
And then you'll walk in through that tunnel and then end up in some weird Shangri-La of cracks that are in the back in this hallway, that pop into the sun that no one knew how to get to. And yeah, there's a lot of weird little mysteries out there in the desert like that that are tucked away in some of the cooler stuff I've found hasn't been the lines that you can straight see.

01;28;54;06 - 01;28;58;11
Speaker 1
They're kind of like buried in the wall and what you can't see.

01;28;58;19 - 01;29;08;26
Speaker 2
Yeah. Do you out of your 665, do you have one that stands out as like you're you're you're golden goose, like the one that you'd never think you'd you'd have gotten.

01;29;11;17 - 01;29;35;16
Speaker 1
There's a there's so many out there that I love so much. And I'm like, oh, that one, this one, this one, that one. But I think, like two years ago on my birthday, I always go out there on my birthday, it's like August 10th, like middle of the summer, but I want to be where I love on my birthday, which is happens being in creeks, I always figure out something to do on my birthday out in the desert.

01;29;35;16 - 01;30;08;17
Speaker 1
And, yeah, I've been I've on this line. It just look like a 150ft like perfect corner. But it looked wicked involved to get up to. And, yeah, I ended up figuring out a way to get to the base of it, and that I, I was a, I was on one for there because the crack was perfect golds and blues for like 150ft of just so crisp and so perfect.

01;30;08;20 - 01;30;33;26
Speaker 1
And, yeah, I was able to on site it because at that point it's so good and you have like you gauge, you're like, well, I mean, I got this many of this widget and this is how long it is. So I better just climb as hard as I can, as long as I can. And not, not fall off the wall, but feed them, you know, feed enough of them in to hopefully.

01;30;33;29 - 01;30;50;02
Speaker 1
And that's the the part about doing these that phase. You have to keep 1 or 2 on you or figure out where you're going to end it. So you can have cams to still stay in and anchor yourself and.

01;30;50;04 - 01;30;51;29
Speaker 1
Bring him up. Yeah,

01;30;51;29 - 01;30;52;14
Speaker 1
Wow.

01;30;52;14 - 01;30;53;22
Speaker 2
What's it called?

01;30;53;22 - 01;31;14;19
Speaker 1
I, I couldn't I don't know if I could put my finger on any one route, but that one in particular is high on my list of extreme. You know, and it's like I'm drawing the worst blank right now because as I'm explaining it, I'm like, dude, you can't remember the name of that route.

01;31;14;22 - 01;31;59;03
Speaker 1
And I'm like, oh man, it's got like such a good name, but it couldn't be that good if I can't remember it. It's like in my head, but. Yeah. Oh yeah. I. Yeah, I'll try to think of it. And you know there's. Yeah. The end of last season, I was able to get to what I thought would be like the unknown untouchable because it didn't come to the ground when I was able to go, we were able to go up to the left of it and swing over, and it's like, right in the heart of the creek, like, right across from Super crack going up Titus Canyon.

01;31;59;06 - 01;32;33;26
Speaker 1
And it's it's on the biggest, smoothest shield. And it's perfect. And it goes up, up, up and then goes dead right. And like, a heartbeat. And I call that one the heartbeat of the creek. And. Yeah. Like it, it's perfectly splitter, like a lightning bolt. And then it just jogs horizontally to the right. And. Yeah, that would probably be my most crowning achievement out there in regards to my favorite route, but it's involved to get to.

01;32;33;26 - 01;33;03;11
Speaker 1
You got to climb up a pitch and then climb up another pitch and then get over to it, like via a little ledge. Definitely not in, danger of becoming the most popular route, but it looks really good. I was trying to, like I said, keep the anchors bright so everyone could see them, and, I was like, wow, that's, you know, crowning achievement on this heart in the creek.

01;33;03;13 - 01;33;26;01
Speaker 1
So I got some of that gold like chain for, like, locking down big loads on, like, semi-trucks, like really bright gold chain. And I specifically went all the way over to Cortez, which is like an hour drive away to get this length of chain to put on the top of this route. So look really bright and you could see it from forever away.

01;33;26;04 - 01;33;47;10
Speaker 1
Something between like the brown of the hangers and the silver of the quick links to the gold chain. You couldn't see it at all. A yeah, I like my my crowning achievement. I got this gold chain for it. You could even see the thing and were rip off.

01;33;47;12 - 01;34;08;21
Speaker 1
Yeah. And that's the thing. When I posted it on the Instagram, it was like, whoa, gold chain. I was like, that's right. I can't even see it. Yeah, because you literally can't even see it from the ground. I was like, what a rip off? Because I thought it was going to be glowing and looking amazing in it. Apparently you can something with eyes and distortion of color.

01;34;08;21 - 01;34;17;13
Speaker 1
You can't see it at all.

01;34;17;16 - 01;34;50;01
Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. I'm not much of a sport climber. Oh, yeah, I guess, yeah. When it comes to, like, holding on to little things, I. I'm not very good at that. And, like, thin fingers, like, they my fingers don't fit in any. There's a couple climb down in there that I'll never be able to do and never, like digital readout and the battle of the bulge.

01;34;50;01 - 01;35;23;13
Speaker 1
Just like the sickest, like, splitter. And it's like five, 12, minus five, 11, but it's like point threes, and I'll never I can't get my fingers in there like I tried. It's like, so certain sizes I just can't do like small continuous fingers I can't do it. My fingers just don't go in. It might as well be a 514 crack.

01;35;23;15 - 01;35;57;08
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like wicked size dependent out there. It's it's weird the way one thing fits someone like a .75 can be like a smaller person's perfect hand and 2.75. You know how that's a shitty size, dude. You know it. Yeah. So, yeah, I think my weakness as a climber would definitely be anything I can't fit my fingers into anything crampy and yet anything too hard.

01;35;57;08 - 01;36;23;26
Speaker 1
Dude, I'm not a great chaser. I, I when it comes to, like, climbing much harder than, like a soft 512. That's. I'm good.

01;36;23;29 - 01;36;49;16
Speaker 1
Right. And like, I climbed me a 513 office and I was like, whoa, dude, I made it up. Climb 513. But again, it's very specific. Like, not everybody can hang upside down from their feet for like that far. Like you have to train and specifically do that one thing to make it go. And in hindsight, I'm like, man, I don't know if 513 off with is the hardest thing on the planet.

01;36;49;16 - 01;37;15;25
Speaker 1
I'm thinking maybe like some 513 crappy thing might be the hardest thing on the planet or something. I don't know, I. For sure. Oh yeah. And just like I don't know the patience and strength to hold on and those little rails, it's just never been my thing.

01;37;15;28 - 01;37;46;08
Speaker 1
No, I, I do enjoy a good overhang. I like moving through weight. If it's judgy, I love it. I love a jokey overhang. Like, like the crack house is like a long hanging upside down, hand cracked 110ft. Like, I love that. That's amazing. But, yeah, like an overhanging jug haul. I'm. I'm all about it. But when it starts getting, like, a hard size or, like, little holds upside down.

01;37;46;08 - 01;37;50;13
Speaker 1
No, not to get at that.

01;37;50;13 - 01;38;04;19
Speaker 2
nice. Different. I want to, you know, kind of wrap it up here with with your thoughts about, the future and kind of like how you see, you know, your life progressing. And do you feel like there's like a.

01;38;06;13 - 01;38;17;05
Speaker 2
A chapter ending or a chapter beginning? Do you see this? You know, your life just kind of, continuing down this trajectory that you've built, you know, what does that look like for you?

01;38;17;19 - 01;38;49;09
Speaker 1
God, I hope I can continue on the trajectory that I built. I've put all my eggs in one basket in regards to being a climber. Until my old age, but, I mean, I still do have skills. I mean, like I said, I, like, carve it for years. I know if I ever, you know, woke up one morning and found climbing not doing it for me, I can always pick up my tools and get back in the trades and get a house, get a car, get a life, something like that.

01;38;49;09 - 01;39;28;09
Speaker 1
But yeah, I'm just going to try to stay healthy and continue to have as much fun as I can. And you know, as far as the future of rock climbing for me, man, I just want to be able to do it and give back to my community as much as I can. Because the older you get, you know, you can't do all the hard things you wanted to, and it's nice to be able to pass on a little bit of knowledge or something like that to the next generation, because climbing exponentially, getting popular and popular all the time, and it's neat to see people come out who had no idea and really wrap their head

01;39;28;09 - 01;39;53;25
Speaker 1
around so yeah, I'd like to be able to share my knowledge in the future. And I think that just comes as getting old and realizing that, you know, you gotta not be the hot fucking rock climber. You got to still be still be relevant in a, in a way. But pump your brakes and be humble.

01;39;54;15 - 01;40;13;11
Speaker 1
God, I don't know. You know, I'd like to say, oh, there's a bunch of up and coming first Ascension is down in Indian Creek. But, you know, I have taught as many people as I can how to handrail. And, you know, for the longest time I was just like, oh, I'm doing this, I know how to. Andrew blah.

01;40;13;14 - 01;40;25;14
Speaker 1
And someone was like, hey, can you show me how to do that? And I was like, actually, I can and, you know, launched them into loving to do First Descents also. And they're.

01;40;25;16 - 01;40;26;03
Speaker 2
Oh.

01;40;26;06 - 01;40;51;10
Speaker 1
Well established. First Ascension is down in the creek also, and I'm sure they'll take that into the future and keep on putting up roots and yeah, I don't know, I think anyone who's got the motivation to get out there and do cool shit, like because I'm sure there's a thousand other Indian creeks out there, you just gotta find that side canyon and go put up your roots.

01;40;51;10 - 01;41;16;28
Speaker 1
You know, it's one of those things. It's not that hard to do. I mean, I've spent my whole life doing it. You just kind of poke a hole in the rock and put a bolt in. Yeah. Have a vision for sure. Totally.

01;41;17;01 - 01;41;18;21
Speaker 2
I mean.

01;41;18;24 - 01;41;36;13
Speaker 1
To a degree, you don't get any credit for it, but it's like, kind of a selfish endeavor. I mean, you know, putting up roots and carving your name. Dual thing. This is your name, and you get to decide. And all this stuff, or like, you write a guidebook that says, these are all my roots. Here's where they are.

01;41;36;13 - 01;42;03;01
Speaker 1
Like, it's very, you know, self promote in a way. But yeah, after all of the years of being a climber. Yeah, you kind of look back and go, wow, if it wasn't for so-and-so, this whole area wouldn't be developed. And, you know, you think about what it took to build all these trails and put up all these boards and the time and yeah, it's, it's definitely, the Lord's work.

01;42;03;01 - 01;42;23;13
Speaker 1
You don't get enough a lot of first ascension, just don't get enough credit. There's a there's a lot of us out there doing it, but you do it for the passion. You don't do it for any kind of monetary compensation or. I've never met the pro climber who was out there. And they're like, my sponsors are giving me money to put as many bolts in as I can.

01;42;23;13 - 01;42;46;03
Speaker 1
Like, I'd love to meet that climber. That would be a radical time, but, you know, unfortunately it all comes out of your own pocket to a degree. I mean, once people start, you know, loving your roots and stuff like that, I've had over the past, you know, couple of years, you know, people do hand over money and they're like, yo, Devon, thank you for the work you've done.

01;42;46;03 - 01;43;10;21
Speaker 1
You're like, oh, Jesus, you know, thank you so much. I wish I had a list of people who just straight up giving me money out of the goodness of their heart to, like, put bolts in the wall. And yeah, people do appreciate your work, but it's more. Yeah, I don't know, it's kind of one of those selfish things that I don't think.

01;43;10;23 - 01;43;47;05
Speaker 1
Right. Yeah. Because yeah, I don't know. I don't know how much money I've spent on boards. I recently saw Evan wish rip had his whole little his sheet out. And I was just like like, holy, holy shit. You know, I've had, like, a nice car. Yeah, it's something mind boggling, but, Evan is more motivated than anyone I've ever met in regards to, like, putting up quality roots, like putting quality bolts up in quality routes.

01;43;47;05 - 01;43;48;05
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;43;48;05 - 01;43;53;16
Speaker 2
difference between like, to bolt anchor for a trad climb versus, you know, a route that takes 12

01;43;54;02 - 01;44;33;18
Speaker 1
Oh my. Mind boggling. Like, yeah, the glue ends and all that stuff. And like, people don't realize the amount of equipment it takes to glue those things and like, cool. They're like, well, these are last forever. And you're like, oh, do the glue ones. But if you actually, like, sat there and watched the process in like on the wall and everything, cool, but like those cork guns and all that glue and it's gotta live somewhere in your house, in your car, in a bucket, somewhere around all your precious climbing gear that through the years we all know it can't touch any of your soft goodies like it's a yeah, dangerous game with the glue engine

01;44;33;20 - 01;44;39;05
Speaker 1
and it's all just for, you know, someone to be like, I think your route sucks. And you're like.

01;44;39;08 - 01;44;41;00
Speaker 2
What?

01;44;41;03 - 01;45;00;19
Speaker 1
Right? For sure. That's the other part of it. Like, yeah, you want all of your routes to be like the star pupil and the amazing child that goes on to college and does everything. But unfortunately I have like a bunch of run kids out there that no one will ever love. And you're like, oh, someone's. You climb that route.

01;45;00;22 - 01;45;02;17
Speaker 1
Yeah. You never know.

01;45;02;17 - 01;45;13;08
Speaker 2
people that are just looking for things to complain about and just don't really grasp. You know, they just see a bolted climb, and they're like, I would have done this better. It's like, yeah. Do you, do you really know what went into this? Do you really have respect for this area?

01;45;13;16 - 01;45;32;18
Speaker 1
For sure. Like cleaning some of those cracks out. You know, you got to knock a lot of the rocks out like some of these. Most of these climbs don't just clean themselves out and be perfect splitters. And, yeah, you go through a lot of, gloves and clothes and stuff, knocking them down and poking them out. But that's half the fun.

01;45;32;18 - 01;45;37;20
Speaker 1
Like no one's going to give you the chinchilla. You're worried because you're covered in dirt and, like, way to go.

01;45;37;20 - 01;45;38;09
Speaker 2
But

01;45;39;14 - 01;45;40;13
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;45;40;15 - 01;45;52;07
Speaker 2
Well nice van. Where can people will support you if, someone's inspired by your your story here. And maybe someone's been following you for a long time, and, you know, they want to, you know, support you. How can they do that?

01;45;53;01 - 01;46;07;02
Speaker 1
I mean, God, I don't have like, a a go fund me or anything cool like that. You know, like one of those little peel codes or, you know, I just, give me a high five. If you see me in the street, that'd be the best way you could support me.

01;46;07;02 - 01;46;11;10
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;46;11;10 - 01;46;16;09
Speaker 2
time and and making this work with the technology and everything. I really appreciate your time.

01;46;16;09 - 01;46;42;00
Speaker 1
Yeah, dude. Love it. Thank you for your time. Brother. Is awesome that you reached out and were able to get this done. I, I've waded through the world of, podcasts, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, I bought my podcast, Jerry. And then, you know what I'm saying? It's like, weird. I'm like, I'm friends with, Chris Callus and everything, and I've known him for so long as, like a climber in the group and everything.

01;46;42;00 - 01;46;59;15
Speaker 1
And then, you know, he's like, come on to the show. You should come out to the show. And like, I see him everywhere. I'm like, oh, dude. And then like, he called me a couple times recently and like, I didn't pick up the phone. I use a FaceTime in me and I'm like, he's like, I just did an interview with Aaron, when are we going to get John?

01;46;59;15 - 01;47;09;15
Speaker 1
And I'm like, dude, I don't know. I don't like I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Chris is an interesting fella. And yeah,

01;47;12;26 - 01;47;14;29
Speaker 1
Yeah. Fucking. He.

01;47;18;16 - 01;47;38;19
Speaker 1
Your, your content online was like, super dope. And I saw what you were doing and how you were filming it, and it was, like, different, you know what I'm saying? And the your what you wrote and everything. And it was very engaging. Your content really got me. And I was like, dude, this is something I can relate to.

01;47;38;19 - 01;48;07;07
Speaker 1
The passion that it came across very, very easy with your eyes and your ears and, you know, and that's something in the push button world we live in, Kyle. I was like, whoa, dude, this dude's cool. And then I saw was like, wait a minute, dudes got a podcast. So then when you reached out, I was like, oh, this is this is for sure a fit because I liked what you were doing with your gram and then saw a couple of your podcasts.

01;48;07;07 - 01;48;11;22
Speaker 1
And I was like, yeah, this seems like the right time. So.

01;48;11;22 - 01;48;23;05
Speaker 2
that. I really know it means a lot. And I think, you know, it's it's the it's the challenge that, you know, I face in this show is like, finding people that haven't spoken, right?

01;48;23;26 - 01;48;25;06
Speaker 1
Oh for sure.

01;48;25;06 - 01;48;28;21
Speaker 2
be to yet to be shared. And that takes a lot of trust.

01;48;28;23 - 01;48;38;17
Speaker 2
And a lot of, faith, from, you know, someone like yourself. So I appreciate the trust you've placed in the show. And, Yeah, just to once again, I really appreciate you being here and and sharing your story.

01;48;38;27 - 01;48;50;01
Speaker 1
Yeah, I do, like I said, kind of stoked to finally get it out there, and I'm sure it'll do good. And if not, dude, you get a bunch of haters and be like, damn, motherfucking.

01;48;50;03 - 01;48;51;25
Speaker 2
Oh.

01;48;51;27 - 01;49;16;00
Speaker 1
No. People who people are pretty sweet. Like I said, the majority of people in the climbing industry have been super sweet to me over all the years. But, you know, it only takes like 1 or 2 fucking sour. It dude, it does. And you know, the worst is like when they troll you and then like, you can see their other fucking cows finding out what you're doing, like, dude, what the hell is wrong with these people?

01;49;16;00 - 01;49;29;27
Speaker 2
Oh, they're all just miserable people. And the second, like, for a while there, I was just kind of like, you know, like, I need the engagement or whatever, you know? But then once I started blocking them and then they no longer were commenting on my posts and they were gone and I forgot about them. I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm such a happier person

01;49;30;06 - 01;49;52;09
Speaker 1
Too. Yeah. And it's weird that you can let something like that bring your frequency down. You're like, dude, it's. It's only like talking about rock climbing, and it's only rock climbing on the whole, like, how could anyone actually get worked up about this? You know, because it should be pretty chill, you know? And yeah. Fully. That's like, that's the main, main ingredient.

01;49;54;25 - 01;50;09;28
Speaker 1
That concludes today's episode. Everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. It really means a lot to me that you're here. If you like today's episode, please be sure to rate and review the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. These are honestly slowed down a little bit lately, so if you haven't gotten around to it, please consider giving the show five stars.

01;50;10;03 - 01;50;26;13
Speaker 1
Also, if you're psyched about what we're doing here at The Climbing Majority, please reach out to me via Instagram or email me at the Climbing Majority podcast at gmail.com. I want to hear from you. And don't forget you can watch our full episodes on YouTube. Stay tuned for our next episode where we sit down with adaptive ice climber Kimber Cross.

01;50;26;16 - 01;50;34;01
Speaker 1
Until then, keep exploring, stay safe. And as always, thanks for being a part of the climbing majority. I will see you all in two weeks.