87 | Unforgotten Lives & Unseen Lines w/ Maximilian Barlerin

Today I sit down with Maximilian Barlerin. You might have first heard his name back in October when Corey Buhay wrote what Max humbly calls “a fluff piece” about his staggering 14-pitch, 5.13 big wall first ascent in the Wind River Range—Children of the Sun. The article described an "everyman" 5.14 climber balancing family, two jobs, a fledgling business, and an impressive list of first ascents. This is the first time Maximilian has spoken publicly about his life.

Max isn’t just a climber…He works as a climbing ranger and search-and-rescue responder in Rocky Mountain National Park. His career put him face-to-face with some of the harshest realities of the mountains, forcing him to reconcile the risks we take as climbers with the consequences he’s witnessed firsthand. Through years of SAR work, close calls, and deep self-reflection, he’s developed a rare perspective on climbing, risk, and the ever-evolving relationship we have with danger.

Just days before this episode launch, I learned that Max and his entire team of rangers had been laid off due to recent federal budget cuts—a devastating blow, especially for those who relied on the job not just for income, but for housing. The outdoor community is certainly hurting right now, and my heart goes out to everyone affected. Max reminds us that this is not a good year to get injured in the mountains—there just might not be anyone there to rescue you.

After we unpack the highs and lows of his time as a climbing ranger..we dive into four of his most notable first ascents in Patagonia, Zion, and the Wind River Range—covering the vision, the process, and the lessons he’s learned along the way.

Maximilian is a soft-spoken, humble climber with an astonishing depth of experience and achievement, and I’m psyched to share his story.

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Resources

Maximilian's IG

First Ascent in Patagonia "Colorado Route" (5.11c 45 Degrees, 500m)

Climbing Magazine Article about "Children of The Sun" (IV 5.13-; 1500ft)

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:29 Parenting
• 7:07 Background
• 30:35 S.A.R. Experience
• 1:13:21 First Ascents
• 2:08:41 Reflections

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:24
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.

00:00:09:26 - 00:00:14:17
Speaker 1
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.

00:00:15:14 - 00:00:45:20
Speaker 1
Welcome back to the Climbing Majority. I'm your host, Kyle Brockman. And today I sit down with Maximillian Barbarin. You might have first heard his name back in October, when Corey Bouchet wrote what Max humbly calls a fluff piece about his staggering 14 pitch. 513 big wall first ascent in the wind River range called Children of the sun. The article describes an every man Fy14 climber balancing family, two jobs, a fledgling business, and an impressive list of first ascents.

00:00:45:22 - 00:01:12:21
Speaker 1
This conversation is Maximilian's first time speaking publicly about his life. Max isn't just a climber. He works as a climbing ranger and search and rescue responder in Rocky Mountain National Park. His career puts him face to face with some of the harshest realities of the mountains, forcing him to reconcile the risks we take as climbers with the consequences that he's witnessed firsthand through years of star work, close calls, and deep self-reflection.

00:01:12:23 - 00:01:34:22
Speaker 1
He's developed a rare perspective on climbing risk and the ever evolving relationship we have with danger. Just days before this episode launch, I did learn that Max and his entire team of Rangers has been laid off due to the recent federal budget cuts. This is a devastating blow, especially for those who relied on the job not just for income, but for housing.

00:01:34:25 - 00:01:59:18
Speaker 1
The outdoor community is certainly hurting right now, and my heart goes out to everyone affected. Max reminds us that this is not a good year to get injured in the mountains, because there might just not be anyone there to rescue you. After we unpack the highs and lows of his time as a climbing ranger, we dive into four of his most notable first ascents in Patagonia, Zion, and the wind River range.

00:01:59:20 - 00:02:15:19
Speaker 1
Covering the vision, the process, and the lessons he's learned along the way. Maximilian is a soft spoken, humble climber with an astonishing depth of experience and achievement, and I am psyched to share his story. And now I bring you Maximilian Padron.

00:02:28:23 - 00:02:31:05
Speaker 1
I spent kind of good. I mean, she's she's great.

00:02:31:05 - 00:02:33:26
Speaker 2
She's definitely, keeps me on my toes.

00:02:33:26 - 00:02:35:17
Speaker 1
And,

00:02:35:19 - 00:02:42:03
Speaker 2
You know, it's it's funny. We're definitely adjusting to, like, the the lifestyle. It's like, you know, you make plans, and.

00:02:42:03 - 00:02:43:08
Speaker 1
Then,

00:02:43:10 - 00:02:44:18
Speaker 2
She decides,

00:02:44:21 - 00:02:51:10
Speaker 1
You know, we're not going to do that. So, but no, I mean, it's great.

00:02:51:10 - 00:02:55:21
Speaker 2
It's it's, it's pretty incredible to, to see,

00:02:55:23 - 00:02:56:17
Speaker 1
You know.

00:02:56:20 - 00:03:03:19
Speaker 2
Little human just kind of, you know, looking up at you just you're kind of their world at first. It's it's it's a real.

00:03:03:19 - 00:03:06:10
Speaker 1
Trip, man. I'm. I'm loving it. Yeah.

00:03:06:12 - 00:03:09:23
Speaker 2
She's, almost seven months on the 20th. She'll be seven.

00:03:09:23 - 00:03:17:28
Speaker 1
Months. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Freshie. Yeah.

00:03:17:28 - 00:03:20:02
Speaker 1
has two kids now. I think one's.

00:03:20:09 - 00:03:20:27
Speaker 2
Five.

00:03:21:29 - 00:03:23:02
Speaker 1
Okay.

00:03:23:02 - 00:03:31:00
Speaker 1
just like, you know, I'm not having kids myself, so I'm just like. So when can they go out and do stuff with you? He's like, I don't know. It's going to be a couple of years. I'm like, wow,

00:03:31:20 - 00:03:35:25
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, like.

00:03:35:25 - 00:03:45:25
Speaker 2
Parents will take their kids out, as you know, as early as they can. But I'm starting to realize that that's kind of like, more about the parents than it is about the kids.

00:03:45:25 - 00:03:51:19
Speaker 1
You know? But yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah.

00:03:51:20 - 00:03:53:27
Speaker 2
Like this holiday season, we're like, oh, it's your.

00:03:53:27 - 00:03:55:29
Speaker 1
First, you know, Christmas and New.

00:03:55:29 - 00:03:56:17
Speaker 2
Year is.

00:03:56:19 - 00:04:06:18
Speaker 1
Just like, it's not like, you know what's going on. Yeah, it is.

00:04:06:18 - 00:04:09:26
Speaker 1
still formative in a way. Like how how do you balance that

00:04:10:23 - 00:04:17:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think that's, a really trippy thing, you know, like I've heard on some,

00:04:17:04 - 00:04:19:01
Speaker 2
Sites, like the part of their brain.

00:04:19:01 - 00:04:19:19
Speaker 1
That.

00:04:19:21 - 00:04:21:18
Speaker 2
Develops memory hasn't really.

00:04:21:18 - 00:04:31:12
Speaker 1
Like, formed yet. But then again, like, people talk about trauma happening, you know, much earlier on.

00:04:31:15 - 00:04:38:25
Speaker 2
So it's like, it's kind of like this shitty situation where, like, they're not going to remember it if it's good, but if it's bad, like.

00:04:38:27 - 00:04:48:23
Speaker 1
Stick with them. I don't know. So we're trying to just keep it good for her, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they really.

00:04:48:23 - 00:04:53:09
Speaker 2
Are sponges, man. I just watch you. I mean, it's most intimidating when you're, like.

00:04:53:09 - 00:04:53:24
Speaker 1
Looking at.

00:04:53:24 - 00:04:56:24
Speaker 2
Your phone or something, and then you see, you know, make contact with them. You're like.

00:04:56:24 - 00:04:58:20
Speaker 1
Oh, my God. They're, like.

00:04:58:22 - 00:05:00:28
Speaker 2
Already ingrained to this.

00:05:00:28 - 00:05:03:27
Speaker 1
World that we live in now, you know.

00:05:04:00 - 00:05:05:00
Speaker 2
That's a true.

00:05:05:08 - 00:05:09:07
Speaker 1
Have you and your wife talked about, the phone policy with the kid?

00:05:09:24 - 00:05:12:19
Speaker 1
We have a little bit, you know, like we kind of.

00:05:12:20 - 00:05:13:05
Speaker 2
Just like try.

00:05:13:05 - 00:05:15:20
Speaker 1
To do it with each other too, you.

00:05:15:20 - 00:05:21:07
Speaker 2
Know, like we're we're eating dinner together. We try not to like, you know, have our look at our phones and stuff like that.

00:05:22:09 - 00:05:26:17
Speaker 2
Obviously we we know we're not super great at it all the time.

00:05:26:17 - 00:05:30:01
Speaker 1
But, yeah, we're I mean, we're not like.

00:05:30:03 - 00:05:32:03
Speaker 2
Being super religious, really, about.

00:05:32:03 - 00:05:40:26
Speaker 1
Anything, but. Yeah, I don't think we really want to, like, have her totally. You know, we're not going to be I don't I don't think we're.

00:05:40:26 - 00:05:41:25
Speaker 2
Going to be like putting a.

00:05:41:25 - 00:05:46:04
Speaker 1
Phone or, you know, a, I may be eating my.

00:05:46:04 - 00:05:47:27
Speaker 2
Words, but I can't be like.

00:05:47:27 - 00:05:49:16
Speaker 1
Putting, like, a phone in front of.

00:05:49:16 - 00:05:52:21
Speaker 2
Her to entertain or, you know.

00:05:52:24 - 00:05:54:15
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, it's another.

00:05:54:15 - 00:05:56:06
Speaker 2
One of these weird things where it's like.

00:05:56:08 - 00:06:01:25
Speaker 1
You, you don't want them to be. You want them to enjoy, like, the real.

00:06:01:25 - 00:06:04:25
Speaker 2
World, you know, as it is. But you also don't.

00:06:04:25 - 00:06:05:27
Speaker 1
Want them.

00:06:06:00 - 00:06:11:04
Speaker 2
To be, like, behind in this kind of just, like, super fast paced.

00:06:12:04 - 00:06:14:11
Speaker 2
Technology driven world that we're.

00:06:14:11 - 00:06:18:02
Speaker 1
Now in, you know, yeah.

00:06:18:04 - 00:06:19:27
Speaker 2
The balance for sure.

00:06:19:29 - 00:06:23:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. Think I'll let you know how it goes or she will.

00:06:23:24 - 00:06:24:22
Speaker 2
You know, 20 years or.

00:06:24:22 - 00:06:33:21
Speaker 1
No.

00:06:33:23 - 00:06:39:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thanks for having me.

00:06:39:14 - 00:06:41:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:06:41:12 - 00:06:53:26
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's kind of a nice fluff piece.

00:06:53:28 - 00:07:01:03
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:07:01:05 - 00:07:01:23
Speaker 2
I appreciate.

00:07:01:23 - 00:07:06:18
Speaker 1
That. Yeah. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. Psyched to be here. Yeah.

00:07:07:26 - 00:07:25:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, I mean, I think that, you know, and he a great place to start is just to kind of get a background on who you are, man. And, just get a foundation for everything before we dive into, you know, the stories and bring it to the present day. So, you know, let's just dive into your childhood.

00:07:25:07 - 00:07:28:21
Speaker 1
You know, maybe I have a question about, like, what was that like? And kind of. How did that lead you

00:07:29:15 - 00:07:36:23
Speaker 1
Okay. Well, I grew up in, a Foreign service family. My dad.

00:07:36:23 - 00:07:37:07
Speaker 2
Was a.

00:07:37:07 - 00:07:38:20
Speaker 1
Diplomat.

00:07:38:23 - 00:07:40:03
Speaker 2
And so I kind of.

00:07:40:10 - 00:07:45:15
Speaker 1
From year one, I grew up abroad.

00:07:45:17 - 00:07:51:06
Speaker 2
So I was just kind of bouncing around from country to country every, like, 1 to 3 years.

00:07:51:08 - 00:07:51:15
Speaker 1
And.

00:07:51:15 - 00:07:52:14
Speaker 2
That was,

00:07:52:17 - 00:08:04:22
Speaker 1
Definitely unique. And pretty, just.

00:08:04:25 - 00:08:21:13
Speaker 2
Everything was just kind of, like, moving so fast. It was, you know, I think the first thing everyone thinks about when you, like, kind of grow up in that environment is like, oh, you get to see the world, you get to go to all these cool places and stuff like that. But, it was, you know, we were just kids.

00:08:21:15 - 00:08:30:18
Speaker 2
And so, like, all of this stuff was happening to us, but we're just, you know, I'm still kind of processing that childhood now.

00:08:30:21 - 00:08:32:20
Speaker 1
But.

00:08:32:20 - 00:08:39:25
Speaker 1
Like, Like, I guess not like a specific moment, you know, but, like, something that the. You still carry with you, I guess, from the experience.

00:08:40:00 - 00:08:43:13
Speaker 1
Well, there are definitely some places that we live that were,

00:08:43:16 - 00:08:45:03
Speaker 2
Super formative, you know.

00:08:45:03 - 00:08:46:17
Speaker 1
Like, I lived in.

00:08:46:17 - 00:08:48:29
Speaker 2
Madagascar for two years, and.

00:08:49:01 - 00:08:51:09
Speaker 1
That really,

00:08:51:12 - 00:08:54:04
Speaker 2
Kind of created this passion.

00:08:54:04 - 00:08:56:06
Speaker 1
For nature.

00:08:56:08 - 00:09:07:13
Speaker 2
For me, it's it's it's, it was, you know, just the timing of my childhood that I lived there, where I was just so curious and just kind of discovering the world.

00:09:08:24 - 00:09:13:12
Speaker 2
And then to be in a place where, you know, I had, like, chameleons in my backyard and.

00:09:13:14 - 00:09:14:28
Speaker 1
You know, walking around, like, wild.

00:09:14:28 - 00:09:24:02
Speaker 2
Lemurs and stuff like that. It was it was really, you know, just it just kind of created this passion for nature and just.

00:09:24:04 - 00:09:26:19
Speaker 1
Made me want to, like.

00:09:26:22 - 00:09:39:14
Speaker 2
Enjoy it, for the rest of my life, you know? And so that kind of drove me to, you know, like, what I chose to study in school and all that. All that stuff.

00:09:39:16 - 00:09:48:13
Speaker 1
Ecology and evolution. Yeah, yeah. I don't use it. I wanted to be David Attenborough, but

00:09:48:15 - 00:09:49:06
Speaker 2
Still working.

00:09:49:06 - 00:09:52:00
Speaker 1
On it. Yeah. Got to go gray.

00:09:52:00 - 00:09:52:26
Speaker 2
First or white.

00:09:52:26 - 00:09:57:06
Speaker 1
Rather. Yeah. Yeah.

00:09:57:08 - 00:09:59:12
Speaker 2
Wear the same shirt you know.

00:09:59:15 - 00:10:03:29
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:10:04:01 - 00:10:05:19
Speaker 1
Hopefully they never do man.

00:10:05:19 - 00:10:12:28
Speaker 2
His I don't know if you can ever replace that guy.

00:10:13:00 - 00:10:17:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah yeah.

00:10:17:01 - 00:10:19:08
Speaker 2
I'm sure those documentaries are already.

00:10:19:08 - 00:10:21:02
Speaker 1
Out. You know,

00:10:22:03 - 00:10:25:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. So you said your your father was a foreign diplomat.

00:10:26:01 - 00:10:27:25
Speaker 2
He was a foreign service officer.

00:10:32:28 - 00:10:36:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. So basically, the US.

00:10:36:20 - 00:10:40:06
Speaker 2
In particular has.

00:10:40:08 - 00:10:48:17
Speaker 1
Kind of they either have bases or, embassies or,

00:10:48:19 - 00:10:51:29
Speaker 2
Foreign service institutes.

00:10:52:02 - 00:10:57:20
Speaker 1
Everywhere. They're all over the world. And

00:10:57:23 - 00:10:59:01
Speaker 2
Those.

00:11:00:15 - 00:11:10:24
Speaker 2
Are basically manage us foreign relations. And so that can be anything from like, just like issuing visas.

00:11:10:24 - 00:11:14:00
Speaker 1
Working with, you know.

00:11:14:00 - 00:11:17:20
Speaker 2
Humanitarian efforts, things like USAID.

00:11:20:09 - 00:11:23:18
Speaker 2
You know, missionary groups, the Peace.

00:11:23:18 - 00:11:31:08
Speaker 1
Corps, all the way to, you know, like,

00:11:31:11 - 00:11:33:14
Speaker 2
Highly militaristic zones where.

00:11:33:14 - 00:11:34:26
Speaker 1
Their,

00:11:34:29 - 00:11:36:05
Speaker 2
Diplomatic relations are.

00:11:36:09 - 00:11:38:11
Speaker 1
Very,

00:11:38:13 - 00:11:54:14
Speaker 2
You know, touching, very serious. So it can be anything from, like, super, you know, like places like Madagascar where, you know, just having a presence is, is good, but it's not going to affect, like, world politics to like, you know.

00:11:55:26 - 00:11:57:18
Speaker 2
The US embassy and I.

00:11:57:18 - 00:11:58:15
Speaker 1
Don't know.

00:11:58:17 - 00:12:00:27
Speaker 2
Paris.

00:12:00:29 - 00:12:02:02
Speaker 1
But the.

00:12:02:04 - 00:12:04:20
Speaker 2
You know, the, the ambassadors, what they do.

00:12:04:20 - 00:12:05:16
Speaker 1
Will make.

00:12:05:16 - 00:12:07:24
Speaker 2
World news, in effect, things like that.

00:12:07:24 - 00:12:13:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. No, I had an older brother,

00:12:13:07 - 00:12:15:14
Speaker 2
And a younger sister.

00:12:15:16 - 00:12:19:00
Speaker 1
And they they were kind of our family unit.

00:12:19:00 - 00:12:23:01
Speaker 2
Kind of stayed together throughout all this. And so they were kind of like this little, like.

00:12:23:01 - 00:12:24:04
Speaker 1
Island.

00:12:24:06 - 00:12:24:25
Speaker 2
That I stayed.

00:12:24:25 - 00:12:27:22
Speaker 1
On my whole life.

00:12:27:24 - 00:12:39:23
Speaker 2
And they were kind of like the only solid ground I had really in my upbringing. So, it wasn't until I came to Colorado for university that.

00:12:39:25 - 00:12:41:07
Speaker 1
That I really kind of, like.

00:12:41:09 - 00:12:45:07
Speaker 2
Started to create a place that I could call,

00:12:45:09 - 00:12:50:14
Speaker 1
Excuse me, outside of my immediate family.

00:12:50:17 - 00:12:52:05
Speaker 2
So that was definitely a challenge.

00:12:52:07 - 00:12:58:15
Speaker 1
But, you know.

00:12:58:18 - 00:13:00:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And not.

00:13:00:22 - 00:13:02:24
Speaker 2
Just that, but just like, community to.

00:13:02:25 - 00:13:03:07
Speaker 1
You know.

00:13:03:07 - 00:13:03:16
Speaker 2
It was.

00:13:03:16 - 00:13:05:18
Speaker 1
Like, one one.

00:13:05:18 - 00:13:24:25
Speaker 2
Year to three years is like, just about as long as it takes to, like, start really forming some kind of lasting relationships. And, and, and then I would just be like, and this was like before Facebook and stuff, so Instagram and all that stuff. So it was just like, okay, bye. See you never, you know.

00:13:24:27 - 00:13:25:11
Speaker 1
And I just.

00:13:25:12 - 00:13:42:12
Speaker 2
Do that just over and over again. And then it actually kind of created this like, kind of goes complex that I had to like, work through in my adulthood, you know, just like, you know, I'm not just like, I don't just, like, disappear.

00:13:42:15 - 00:13:44:12
Speaker 1
I'm like, you know.

00:13:44:14 - 00:13:46:03
Speaker 2
I'm not just, like, floating.

00:13:46:05 - 00:13:51:08
Speaker 1
Like, I can, like, you know, have a community, and I can.

00:13:51:08 - 00:13:57:24
Speaker 2
Have lasting relationships beyond, like, a couple of years, you know,

00:13:57:24 - 00:14:01:18
Speaker 1
like, creating friendships? Like. Almost like. Oh, is now even not even worth

00:14:01:18 - 00:14:04:10
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah. It was tough, man.

00:14:04:14 - 00:14:21:08
Speaker 2
It was a it was a it was, you know, it's really weird because it's like, something that I would hear from people and friends that were, you know, grew up in environments where they, you know, grew up around their friends and, you know, they've known them for 30 years and was like manners.

00:14:21:10 - 00:14:24:00
Speaker 1
I haven't, you know, I'd kill for that. I don't even know what that.

00:14:24:00 - 00:14:40:26
Speaker 2
Feels like, you know, that was the exact opposite. So it actually, like, took some really, like, conscious effort to, to learn to, to, to kind of change that and, like, invest in my relationships, you know.

00:14:41:07 - 00:15:03:26
Speaker 1
Yeah I can understand that for sure. I did some traveling myself throughout North America, and I kind of lived in a different city every six months. And same kind of thing. Like not really establishing relationships with people like even in the digital presence. It's like, yeah, you know, okay, follow you on Instagram. But it's like, you know, there's a difference between like, oh, you know, hey, we hang out and climb once or to someone like, hey, like, let me come visit you from another

00:15:05:29 - 00:15:14:13
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:15:14:16 - 00:15:16:24
Speaker 2
For sure. Yeah.

00:15:16:24 - 00:15:27:23
Speaker 1
only for, you know, your own personal development, but, I don't know, like, in a business sense, like networking, like having a community, people, you know, like, you know, we're only as strong as the people we surround ourselves with.

00:15:27:23 - 00:15:31:26
Speaker 1
And if you're on an island, it's like you can only really, you know, raise yourself up as much

00:15:32:21 - 00:15:34:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

00:15:34:13 - 00:15:38:26
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's it's, it's, you know something I'm still.

00:15:38:26 - 00:15:45:09
Speaker 1
Learning and working on.

00:15:45:12 - 00:15:51:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, in Boulder.

00:15:51:09 - 00:16:02:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Man, it's almost 20 years now. I don't know.

00:16:02:06 - 00:16:02:18
Speaker 2
18.

00:16:02:18 - 00:16:21:15
Speaker 1
Years. Yeah. Yeah yeah for sure. Yeah. I mean I met my wife here and, you know, you're a kid and I've got, Yeah, yeah, I've definitely got a community. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, Yeah, I've kind of.

00:16:21:17 - 00:16:26:16
Speaker 2
I mean, it's it's a nice thing about growing up is, like, you kind of. You can kind of, like, look.

00:16:26:16 - 00:16:28:28
Speaker 1
Down the well and, you know, work on your.

00:16:29:00 - 00:16:31:11
Speaker 2
Problems, you know.

00:16:33:01 - 00:16:40:10
Speaker 1
Did you find, like, community in climbing, or did you find community kind of before and and kind of like, I guess. How did you find

00:16:41:25 - 00:16:48:04
Speaker 1
I have definitely found community in climbing. How I found climbing was it was really.

00:16:48:04 - 00:16:50:24
Speaker 2
Kind of interesting. You know, it's like this I.

00:16:50:27 - 00:16:55:25
Speaker 1
I've had all these, like, little glimpses of.

00:16:55:28 - 00:16:56:27
Speaker 2
Like, experience with.

00:16:56:27 - 00:17:00:00
Speaker 1
Climbing in my childhood,

00:17:00:03 - 00:17:02:09
Speaker 2
Times where I was kind of exposed to it.

00:17:04:03 - 00:17:06:16
Speaker 2
But I was still like, at this point where.

00:17:06:16 - 00:17:08:05
Speaker 1
I,

00:17:08:08 - 00:17:15:08
Speaker 2
I was just kind of discovering myself and discovering the world. So I was just soaking it all and trying everything, you know, sucking.

00:17:15:08 - 00:17:19:01
Speaker 1
On a lot of things. But, climbing was definitely.

00:17:19:01 - 00:17:21:28
Speaker 2
One of these things where I definitely, are just, like, really.

00:17:22:05 - 00:17:24:16
Speaker 1
Appreciated,

00:17:24:18 - 00:17:25:21
Speaker 2
Being outside.

00:17:25:21 - 00:17:26:01
Speaker 1
And.

00:17:26:01 - 00:17:27:22
Speaker 2
And something about, like.

00:17:27:22 - 00:17:32:01
Speaker 1
The movement of it worked for me.

00:17:32:03 - 00:17:38:05
Speaker 2
You know, I was never, like, super fast. But I could I could kind of persist.

00:17:38:08 - 00:17:40:02
Speaker 1
And I found that climbing.

00:17:40:04 - 00:17:41:06
Speaker 2
That kind of, like, works with.

00:17:41:06 - 00:17:43:02
Speaker 1
Climbing.

00:17:43:04 - 00:17:51:26
Speaker 2
And I also, I think really early on was impressed by, like, how you could, like, meet an obstacle.

00:17:51:26 - 00:17:52:19
Speaker 1
And not.

00:17:52:26 - 00:17:58:03
Speaker 2
Necessarily be able to do it right away, but then somehow, just like.

00:17:58:05 - 00:18:01:07
Speaker 1
You know, do it, with.

00:18:01:07 - 00:18:02:03
Speaker 2
With effort, you.

00:18:02:03 - 00:18:07:24
Speaker 1
Know, and I really liked that. But yeah, I didn't I didn't really.

00:18:07:24 - 00:18:26:00
Speaker 2
Embrace it until, I was 17, when I, when I visited, my brother actually came out here to for school and he, like, showed me rock hungry for the first time because he was being shown it. And I was like, oh, my God, this is this is so cool. And and so.

00:18:26:00 - 00:18:27:27
Speaker 1
I,

00:18:28:00 - 00:18:29:08
Speaker 2
I was actually.

00:18:29:10 - 00:18:30:01
Speaker 1
Living in.

00:18:30:02 - 00:18:32:28
Speaker 2
In France at the time and I was like, oh, I.

00:18:32:28 - 00:18:37:18
Speaker 1
Should, I should try, I should try to climb, you know, I should Boulder.

00:18:37:18 - 00:18:38:10
Speaker 2
And I was like, I wonder.

00:18:38:10 - 00:18:41:18
Speaker 1
If there's anywhere that there's bouldering nearby.

00:18:41:18 - 00:18:46:20
Speaker 2
Me. And as you know, Google search. And I was like, there's this place called Fontainebleau that's,

00:18:46:22 - 00:18:50:08
Speaker 1
There. Right. So, you know, like, boarded crash bad and.

00:18:50:10 - 00:18:57:28
Speaker 2
Got on the metro. And, and that was where I started climbing was just, scrapping around Boulders and Fontainebleau.

00:18:58:01 - 00:19:01:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'd love to.

00:19:01:20 - 00:19:08:21
Speaker 2
Go back to because, I mean, I was awful back then, and it'd be cool to actually, like, be able to do some of the climbs now.

00:19:08:24 - 00:19:09:25
Speaker 1
Yeah. But yeah.

00:19:09:26 - 00:19:13:17
Speaker 2
Just just got super, super into it. Super obsessed.

00:19:14:12 - 00:19:25:08
Speaker 2
Started bouldering and then just kind of like progressed and wanted to start using ropes and stuff like that. And so I started sport climbing and then I was like, well.

00:19:25:08 - 00:19:27:06
Speaker 1
You can only you can only.

00:19:27:06 - 00:19:39:09
Speaker 2
Do like routes that have bolts on them. And I was like, well, what if you want to like climb that piece of rock and there are bolts on it? And then I was like, oh, you have to, you have to learn how trad climb. And so, you know.

00:19:39:12 - 00:19:41:18
Speaker 1
I got a hand-me-down rack from.

00:19:41:18 - 00:19:44:16
Speaker 2
My old boss and.

00:19:44:18 - 00:19:46:06
Speaker 1
And yeah, went.

00:19:46:08 - 00:19:51:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think my first lead was like A55. And I was super gripped and so did.

00:19:51:10 - 00:19:52:06
Speaker 1
Up and.

00:19:52:09 - 00:19:53:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, just worked my way up.

00:19:53:11 - 00:19:54:21
Speaker 1
From there.

00:19:55:02 - 00:20:08:04
Speaker 1
So I think, you know, there's typically there's, you know, you have boulders, sport climbers, trad climbers. And I feel like trad climbers sometimes all sport climb, and sometimes they're like, oh, I never boulder like people find their categories

00:20:08:18 - 00:20:09:23
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:20:09:23 - 00:20:22:18
Speaker 1
as a boulder, like, I guess you kind of answered it, but like, how do you your progression and leaving not necessarily leaving it behind, but like evolving your progression as a climber towards trad climbing.

00:20:22:18 - 00:20:33:23
Speaker 1
Like what about climbing or what about the experience? Did it like draw you and what do you think? How do you think? Like certain people stay away from that kind of development? Like where do you see

00:20:37:15 - 00:20:43:08
Speaker 1
Well, I think a lot of people like to operate within, like.

00:20:43:11 - 00:20:48:01
Speaker 2
A zone that's comfortable for them. And so, you know.

00:20:48:01 - 00:20:49:24
Speaker 1
Maybe people that are, like.

00:20:49:26 - 00:20:50:22
Speaker 2
Really naturally.

00:20:50:22 - 00:20:54:10
Speaker 1
Strong are like, oh, I, I can.

00:20:54:10 - 00:21:02:12
Speaker 2
Do these sick boulders and, you know, get my feelings of accomplishment from, from there with,

00:21:02:15 - 00:21:07:02
Speaker 1
Without, you know, deviating.

00:21:07:04 - 00:21:16:19
Speaker 2
But I always kind of, I guess, like being so familiar with change growing up, like, I, I've.

00:21:16:26 - 00:21:17:19
Speaker 1
Always.

00:21:17:19 - 00:21:20:29
Speaker 2
Kind of, like, wanted to stimulate myself.

00:21:21:01 - 00:21:21:16
Speaker 1
And.

00:21:21:16 - 00:21:29:03
Speaker 2
I just kind of saw the other domains of climbing as, like, an opportunity to.

00:21:29:05 - 00:21:30:18
Speaker 1
Learn more and,

00:21:30:20 - 00:21:32:06
Speaker 2
Become more skilled and stuff.

00:21:32:06 - 00:21:34:15
Speaker 1
Like that. And, you know, I had big.

00:21:34:15 - 00:21:35:24
Speaker 2
Aspirations to.

00:21:35:28 - 00:21:37:26
Speaker 1
You know, be,

00:21:37:29 - 00:21:41:08
Speaker 2
Hardcore alpinist and stuff like that. But.

00:21:41:10 - 00:21:53:18
Speaker 1
Since then I've kind of pump the brakes a little bit like, okay, you know, got stuff to live for.

00:21:53:20 - 00:21:58:21
Speaker 1
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

00:21:58:23 - 00:22:04:01
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:22:04:03 - 00:22:11:14
Speaker 1
Totally. Yeah. I mean, and and, Yeah. I mean, I think that that's a little bit of a different story. You know, I think that.

00:22:11:14 - 00:22:16:12
Speaker 2
More has to do with, objective and subjective risk.

00:22:16:14 - 00:22:18:01
Speaker 1
And,

00:22:18:04 - 00:22:21:00
Speaker 2
You know, hopefully we can go of that a little bit later, but.

00:22:21:00 - 00:22:26:14
Speaker 1
I think, you know, I think that you can.

00:22:26:14 - 00:22:28:20
Speaker 2
Definitely get into the world of trad.

00:22:28:20 - 00:22:30:10
Speaker 1
Climbing and.

00:22:30:13 - 00:22:44:15
Speaker 2
And that's such a broad term too. Right? But, you know, like learning to use all of the, the gear that's available to you is, I think it's it's a useful.

00:22:44:18 - 00:22:44:28
Speaker 1
You know.

00:22:45:06 - 00:22:50:17
Speaker 2
Means to an end. It just allows you to be more like, proficient and more competent,

00:22:50:19 - 00:22:51:15
Speaker 1
In, in.

00:22:51:15 - 00:22:52:02
Speaker 2
Various.

00:22:52:02 - 00:22:53:24
Speaker 1
Terrain, you know.

00:22:53:24 - 00:22:54:11
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:22:54:13 - 00:23:06:10
Speaker 1
So what was, your like? Did you have a mentor? Did you were you self-taught? Like your brother introduced to you? But, like, after that, and like, you're, you know, you got a hand-me-down rack, like, did someone walk you through? Did you have a mentor? How was

00:23:07:28 - 00:23:19:03
Speaker 1
I, you know, I didn't really have any mentors. I did have. I did have one. This.

00:23:19:03 - 00:23:19:19
Speaker 2
Woman. Quinn.

00:23:19:19 - 00:23:25:08
Speaker 1
Brett. She, she definitely, taught me.

00:23:25:11 - 00:23:26:16
Speaker 2
A decent amount of, like.

00:23:26:16 - 00:23:30:17
Speaker 1
Climbing.

00:23:30:19 - 00:23:33:01
Speaker 2
Kind of, like, more advanced skills.

00:23:33:24 - 00:23:35:26
Speaker 2
Like big slam climbing and stuff like that.

00:23:36:23 - 00:23:39:16
Speaker 2
And then when I was.

00:23:39:18 - 00:23:47:28
Speaker 1
When I was kind of exposed to the world of, climbing ranking, I had a, you know, another buddy who,

00:23:48:00 - 00:23:53:27
Speaker 2
Kind of became one of my, like, really good partners is guys, Kevin Sturmer, he was, another climbing ranger.

00:23:54:05 - 00:23:58:28
Speaker 1
He kind of, like, helped me. Kind of like.

00:23:58:28 - 00:24:02:16
Speaker 2
Again, learn some more, like, advanced skills in climbing.

00:24:02:18 - 00:24:06:21
Speaker 1
But, yeah, I never I was never really, like, taken under the.

00:24:06:21 - 00:24:09:28
Speaker 2
Wing, as you know, some of these, like, origin stories you hear.

00:24:09:28 - 00:24:11:02
Speaker 1
Of, I.

00:24:11:02 - 00:24:12:27
Speaker 2
Really had to, like, learn a lot of this stuff.

00:24:12:27 - 00:24:14:08
Speaker 1
Myself,

00:24:14:10 - 00:24:14:28
Speaker 2
Through trial.

00:24:14:28 - 00:24:23:08
Speaker 1
And error. And, that was okay with me. I mean, I, I,

00:24:23:10 - 00:24:24:24
Speaker 2
It was like, very.

00:24:24:26 - 00:24:27:07
Speaker 1
It felt very linear.

00:24:27:09 - 00:24:37:20
Speaker 2
Not necessarily on purpose, but I just kind of like, would be curious about something and doing something a certain way. And then I would,

00:24:37:22 - 00:24:42:29
Speaker 1
Try to kind of, fulfill that.

00:24:43:01 - 00:24:46:11
Speaker 2
The desire to, like, learn a new skill.

00:24:46:13 - 00:24:46:23
Speaker 1
Whether.

00:24:46:23 - 00:25:05:10
Speaker 2
It was like, you know, using cams and falling on gear to like, you know, placing micro wires to, like, I don't know, hammering and pitons and drilling bolts only and stuff like that, you know, but yeah, it was odd. So I'll just kind of like happened organically.

00:25:05:14 - 00:25:20:20
Speaker 1
It seems like you. You've kind of, you know, took it as, like, a pragmatic approach and very safety conscious and just kind of, like, tested the limits in a safe way. I think that, you know, that's not always the case, especially when you're trying to teach yourself. It's like very. You know, who did who said this? Like, you don't know what you don't know.

00:25:20:20 - 00:25:21:17
Speaker 1
If you don't know that, you don't

00:25:22:03 - 00:25:24:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.

00:25:24:16 - 00:25:37:27
Speaker 1
you know, you don't really know what you're risking if you don't know what the risk is. And I think that's pretty, like easy to fall into when you're trad climbing because you don't you never fall on, you know, you don't really know what the risks are. And so you kind of just throwing yourself out there and you're like, okay, this

00:25:38:26 - 00:25:43:06
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:25:43:08 - 00:25:45:01
Speaker 1
For sure.

00:25:45:01 - 00:25:50:17
Speaker 1
calls as, like a budding trad climber, like any, you know, stark realizations early on was like, whoa, like, this looks

00:25:51:17 - 00:26:03:04
Speaker 1
Oh my God. Yeah, yeah. For sure. You know, I ironically, I actually early on, I don't think it was.

00:26:03:04 - 00:26:08:12
Speaker 2
As bad as, like,

00:26:08:14 - 00:26:10:04
Speaker 1
Kind of in that sweet spot.

00:26:10:04 - 00:26:16:03
Speaker 2
That, like, kind of like sophomore year, a time where it's like, you know, just enough to get yourself killed.

00:26:16:03 - 00:26:21:20
Speaker 1
Kind of thing, where you're like. Oh, no. I mean, it was definitely.

00:26:21:20 - 00:26:30:05
Speaker 2
A couple of years for me that I was like, really starting to use gear and stuff, but like, more just like.

00:26:30:07 - 00:26:31:23
Speaker 1
You know, I've done.

00:26:31:25 - 00:26:33:08
Speaker 2
My fair share of free.

00:26:33:08 - 00:26:34:23
Speaker 1
Soloing and.

00:26:34:25 - 00:26:36:08
Speaker 2
Kind of like big smiles.

00:26:36:08 - 00:26:38:11
Speaker 1
And, you know, climbing and.

00:26:38:11 - 00:26:45:23
Speaker 2
Objective hazard and stuff like that. And I think that during the time that I was doing those.

00:26:45:25 - 00:26:58:22
Speaker 1
There was the prevailing kind of. Defense was that, oh, you just don't fall. And, you know, looking back on that now.

00:26:58:22 - 00:27:04:09
Speaker 2
I just realize how dumb that was. And I've, you know, I've kind of witnessed firsthand.

00:27:04:12 - 00:27:08:02
Speaker 1
The, you know.

00:27:08:04 - 00:27:12:00
Speaker 2
All aspects of the, the outcomes of ignoring that.

00:27:12:03 - 00:27:14:04
Speaker 1
So now I, I.

00:27:14:04 - 00:27:15:16
Speaker 2
Try to be a lot more intentional.

00:27:15:22 - 00:27:16:20
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:27:16:20 - 00:27:27:01
Speaker 1
have any, like, specific moments? Like, maybe like a quick short story of, like, a specific moment where you had, like, a personal close call on, like a realization of, like. Whoa, that was a little close.

00:27:27:28 - 00:27:29:25
Speaker 1
I mean, a lot of the times that I went free.

00:27:29:25 - 00:27:36:13
Speaker 2
Soloing, I was like, oh, I should be, free solo, or I should be good at this. I, you know, I'm skilled. This is like one of.

00:27:36:13 - 00:27:37:09
Speaker 1
The.

00:27:37:12 - 00:27:43:05
Speaker 2
The skills that you need to have as a, as a all around climber. And I really wanted to be an all around climber.

00:27:43:05 - 00:27:46:02
Speaker 1
And then, you know, I would.

00:27:46:02 - 00:27:47:23
Speaker 2
Be several hundred feet up like.

00:27:47:23 - 00:27:56:04
Speaker 1
Fuck, this is like, sketch like like, you know, and like, man, I could be like.

00:27:56:07 - 00:28:02:25
Speaker 2
Super run out with a harness and rope and, you know, would be totally comfortable, but just like being.

00:28:02:25 - 00:28:06:29
Speaker 1
Unraveled, I was just like, oh my God. And yeah, after doing.

00:28:06:29 - 00:28:14:27
Speaker 2
That enough times, I kind of realized, it's like, you know, this isn't for me. I shouldn't be doing this. And I can fall and like.

00:28:14:29 - 00:28:15:27
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I never.

00:28:15:27 - 00:28:17:16
Speaker 2
Really had, like.

00:28:17:18 - 00:28:20:19
Speaker 1
Any,

00:28:20:21 - 00:28:23:29
Speaker 2
Particular incidences other than, like.

00:28:23:29 - 00:28:27:16
Speaker 1
You know, I don't know, like, I've done.

00:28:27:18 - 00:28:46:20
Speaker 2
Like, approaches. To reach a climb, like in Patagonia and then, like, you're higher up on the wall and you, like, see, giants rockfall had swept through your tracks, stuff like that. You know, that those kinds of things are a little bit sobering in the sense that you're just like, wow, I was.

00:28:46:21 - 00:28:52:07
Speaker 1
There. Then, I would be here now, you know?

00:28:52:07 - 00:29:00:09
Speaker 1
The the the free solo thing where it's like you never. You didn't have it like a foot slip or double foot slip, and you're, like, hanging on by one hand and

00:29:07:15 - 00:29:19:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

00:29:26:02 - 00:29:35:21
Speaker 1
Right. Yeah.

00:29:35:23 - 00:29:40:15
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yes.

00:29:40:15 - 00:29:41:12
Speaker 1
kind of life do you want?

00:29:41:13 - 00:29:50:02
Speaker 1
Right? It's like, do you want to be maimed and in a wheelchair, or do you want to like, you know, continue climbing or at least you're living some sort of positive life so you have free freezing. This is kind of

00:29:51:06 - 00:29:55:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think really.

00:29:55:21 - 00:29:59:27
Speaker 2
What did it for me in the end was just like, I can.

00:29:59:27 - 00:30:02:20
Speaker 1
Justify.

00:30:02:22 - 00:30:03:25
Speaker 2
You know, the world is full of.

00:30:03:25 - 00:30:05:01
Speaker 1
Risks.

00:30:05:03 - 00:30:10:01
Speaker 2
Climbing is full of risks and stuff like that, but I just don't feel like.

00:30:10:01 - 00:30:15:00
Speaker 1
I would want to leave behind.

00:30:15:02 - 00:30:18:18
Speaker 2
You know, my loved ones, just like.

00:30:18:18 - 00:30:19:15
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah, I went.

00:30:19:17 - 00:30:24:00
Speaker 2
Free soloing when I didn't have to. I could have just gone climbing.

00:30:24:03 - 00:30:24:16
Speaker 1
And I got.

00:30:24:16 - 00:30:32:03
Speaker 2
Wrecked and, just felt like I just, I couldn't I yeah, I couldn't justify it, so.

00:30:32:06 - 00:30:35:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. Stopped. Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:35:05 - 00:30:50:01
Speaker 1
So your your experience with soccer, I kind of want to dive into that. You know, we've talked about risk a little bit, and I feel like I want to expand on, you know, your experience with that. And yeah, I think it's an interesting perspective because, you know, you said you haven't had a lot of close calls yourself.

00:30:50:01 - 00:31:06:24
Speaker 1
But, you know, in soccer, I would imagine you've had a lot of experience witnessing, you know, other people's mistakes. And so, you know, I'd love to dive into, you know, your experience there. Before, you know, we go into the specific experiences and stuff, like, how did you how did you get started? Like, what was the story behind, like, choosing to go into that path?

00:31:08:14 - 00:31:28:03
Speaker 1
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00:31:28:06 - 00:31:43:06
Speaker 1
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00:31:44:07 - 00:31:47:08
Speaker 1
Well, I was always.

00:31:47:08 - 00:31:51:03
Speaker 2
Kind of interested in it, actually.

00:31:51:05 - 00:31:52:04
Speaker 1
I mean, for a really long.

00:31:52:04 - 00:31:58:12
Speaker 2
Time, I wanted to try to figure out some sort of career path that was associated with.

00:31:58:12 - 00:32:03:08
Speaker 1
Climbing, and, you know, I got a.

00:32:03:08 - 00:32:04:09
Speaker 2
Couple of, like.

00:32:08:06 - 00:32:17:14
Speaker 2
Like, after I graduated from college, with my bachelors, I had a couple of jobs, at the Marine Research station, close to the.

00:32:17:14 - 00:32:21:20
Speaker 1
Continental divide in Colorado. And,

00:32:21:23 - 00:32:43:06
Speaker 2
Got pretty used to, like, working in the mountains and kind of like, started to notice that, like, I was doing a lot of the work, in kind of like poor weather days and, you know, in some of the researchers were like tanking and stuff. I was like taking care of them. And this is also while I was like trying to become a better climber.

00:32:43:06 - 00:32:47:04
Speaker 1
And, I had kind of learned about.

00:32:47:07 - 00:32:49:20
Speaker 2
The climbing ranger program at Rocky Mountain National.

00:32:49:20 - 00:32:51:13
Speaker 1
Park.

00:32:51:15 - 00:32:53:26
Speaker 2
It kind of just became this, like.

00:32:53:28 - 00:32:59:07
Speaker 1
I don't know, Shangri la of of, of, work.

00:32:59:07 - 00:33:01:08
Speaker 2
Potential for me for whatever reason.

00:33:02:26 - 00:33:06:02
Speaker 2
But I never really thought I would get an opportunity to do it.

00:33:07:16 - 00:33:20:08
Speaker 2
But then I just kind of found myself getting, like, through other jobs. I was kind of working closer and closer to Rocky until I started to make friends with, some of the.

00:33:20:08 - 00:33:24:04
Speaker 1
People involved in, And then, yeah.

00:33:24:04 - 00:33:27:14
Speaker 2
I just kind of got this great opportunity.

00:33:27:16 - 00:33:28:02
Speaker 1
One year.

00:33:28:02 - 00:33:34:23
Speaker 2
Where I was actually climbing down in Patagonia with some of the climbing rangers, and they encouraged me to apply.

00:33:34:23 - 00:33:36:13
Speaker 1
And.

00:33:36:15 - 00:33:42:07
Speaker 2
You know, I had a successful season down there, and I think that kind of, like, sloughed me up a little bit to, like, get an opportunity to work.

00:33:42:07 - 00:33:46:09
Speaker 1
For, for Rocky and, and then, yeah.

00:33:46:09 - 00:33:47:21
Speaker 2
I just got a kind of a foot in the.

00:33:47:21 - 00:33:56:12
Speaker 1
Door and, star.

00:33:56:15 - 00:34:00:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I'd.

00:34:00:17 - 00:34:06:06
Speaker 2
Say it's just like anything else really, where it's not necessarily what you know, but it's who, you know.

00:34:06:08 - 00:34:06:13
Speaker 1
You.

00:34:06:13 - 00:34:09:10
Speaker 2
Know, they do have things like veteran preferences and stuff like that.

00:34:09:10 - 00:34:12:20
Speaker 1
And you can be, like a lot more.

00:34:12:23 - 00:34:15:09
Speaker 2
Attractive, so to speak.

00:34:15:12 - 00:34:15:18
Speaker 1
And.

00:34:15:18 - 00:34:27:27
Speaker 2
There is a bit of a vetting process that's just federal employment in general. That's kind of painstaking. But once you learn to kind of like, speak that language, it's very much like.

00:34:28:00 - 00:34:30:02
Speaker 1
Who, you know, that,

00:34:30:05 - 00:34:31:07
Speaker 2
Really, like, helps you get.

00:34:31:07 - 00:34:33:06
Speaker 1
In and, and I think part.

00:34:33:06 - 00:34:35:25
Speaker 2
Of the reason that's the case is just because.

00:34:37:16 - 00:34:39:24
Speaker 2
You know, these are really niche.

00:34:39:26 - 00:34:40:05
Speaker 1
Work.

00:34:40:05 - 00:34:40:29
Speaker 2
Groups that.

00:34:40:29 - 00:34:45:17
Speaker 1
Are, you're you're really,

00:34:45:19 - 00:34:58:14
Speaker 2
Intimately involved with each other. And they just want to know that, that they can kind of, like, count on each other. And so, like, if you trust each other or if you. Yeah, if they trust you and been like.

00:34:58:16 - 00:35:01:17
Speaker 1
You know, sketchy around environment and.

00:35:01:20 - 00:35:02:12
Speaker 2
That sort of stuff.

00:35:02:12 - 00:35:09:27
Speaker 1
Then they know that you're going to be competent. And so, yeah.

00:35:09:27 - 00:35:20:29
Speaker 1
Instead of, you know, we've had our climbing partners. You know, because safety is a huge aspect. I would imagine it's the same, which is like a huge team, right? You get, like, everyone's got to be on the same page. Everyone's got to be speaking the same language. You know, there can't be

00:35:24:11 - 00:35:37:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, that's the goal at least. But all of those, all of those things happen. Yeah for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.

00:35:37:14 - 00:35:52:23
Speaker 2
Exactly.

00:35:52:26 - 00:35:56:24
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, I mean it for me, it was,

00:35:56:26 - 00:35:58:01
Speaker 2
It was a dream job.

00:35:58:02 - 00:36:03:08
Speaker 1
To kind of, unfortunately, turn into a nightmare, but now it's kind.

00:36:03:08 - 00:36:07:29
Speaker 2
Of like, back to, like, maybe like a waking dream. A lucid dream rather.

00:36:08:01 - 00:36:12:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.

00:36:12:09 - 00:36:14:06
Speaker 2
I mean, I thought it was so cool to.

00:36:14:06 - 00:36:18:15
Speaker 1
Be out on patrol, like,

00:36:18:17 - 00:36:20:13
Speaker 2
As a climbing ranger.

00:36:20:16 - 00:36:20:21
Speaker 1
You.

00:36:20:21 - 00:36:28:27
Speaker 2
Know, for a while, it was just kind of hard to believe that. That that's what we were there to do. And the structure of the climbing ranger program.

00:36:28:27 - 00:36:30:21
Speaker 1
And in,

00:36:30:24 - 00:36:33:20
Speaker 2
In Rocky, was.

00:36:33:23 - 00:36:39:24
Speaker 1
It used to kind of be this, you know, like, you weren't.

00:36:39:26 - 00:36:41:27
Speaker 2
You weren't just on call.

00:36:42:15 - 00:36:44:14
Speaker 2
Like, firehouse or something like.

00:36:44:14 - 00:36:44:25
Speaker 1
That.

00:36:44:25 - 00:37:00:24
Speaker 2
The they they really encouraged all of us to get familiar with the, the park so that you could kind of, respond to, like, the most technical areas. As proficiently as possible.

00:37:00:26 - 00:37:01:12
Speaker 1
And then it.

00:37:01:12 - 00:37:08:16
Speaker 2
Was also, I think that they just, like, wanted us to kind of like have this, like, even spread throughout the park so that if.

00:37:08:16 - 00:37:11:00
Speaker 1
Something happened,

00:37:11:02 - 00:37:17:14
Speaker 2
That there was like a decent chance that, at least one of the.

00:37:17:17 - 00:37:17:27
Speaker 1
Anywhere.

00:37:17:27 - 00:37:23:12
Speaker 2
From, like, 8 to 10 of us was, nearby to be able to respond.

00:37:23:15 - 00:37:24:18
Speaker 1
And,

00:37:24:21 - 00:37:47:12
Speaker 2
The kind of like, helicopter response program is like it's changing a little bit now. It's like becoming a little bit more, like more heavy use with helicopters and stuff. But when I started, it was like we would only really fly if it was, life or eyesight, you know, like, you and.

00:37:47:15 - 00:37:48:08
Speaker 1
I remember.

00:37:48:08 - 00:38:02:08
Speaker 2
Actually having to, like, make justifications that, you know, a patient was going to die unless we flew them out. And like, having to, like, debate with my superiors over the phone because,

00:38:02:10 - 00:38:03:29
Speaker 1
We,

00:38:04:02 - 00:38:07:09
Speaker 2
We were really, like, kind of like an on foot response group.

00:38:08:11 - 00:38:10:24
Speaker 2
For the early stages.

00:38:10:24 - 00:38:19:13
Speaker 1
like you. Let's say you got 20 people on your team. They're like two. You're going in this valley. Two, you go in this valley. And that way, like, if something happens in the valley, like, you guys are at least

00:38:21:07 - 00:38:24:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

00:38:24:07 - 00:38:30:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. So like, we would be carrying radios with us. We'd be carrying med kits,

00:38:30:24 - 00:38:32:25
Speaker 1
And

00:38:32:27 - 00:38:36:19
Speaker 2
Basically when, when someone calls nine on one or like through word of.

00:38:36:19 - 00:38:37:21
Speaker 1
Mouth, we hear about.

00:38:37:21 - 00:38:42:28
Speaker 2
An accident. We would just kind of stop what we were doing.

00:38:43:01 - 00:38:45:26
Speaker 1
And, and,

00:38:45:28 - 00:38:52:28
Speaker 2
Go access that, whoever needs help, stabilize them and then just kind of like, start the.

00:38:53:27 - 00:38:55:26
Speaker 2
The rescue from there.

00:38:55:29 - 00:38:57:09
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:38:57:09 - 00:39:08:21
Speaker 1
like, be out, like you said? You, you know, kind of diamond? Were you, like, able to go into these valleys and go do climbs and be in that area? And basically you'd be you'd be a response team for, like, people on the diamond that day or.

00:39:08:21 - 00:39:21:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I, I maybe took advantage of that a little bit more than others, and I think everyone really,

00:39:21:08 - 00:39:25:18
Speaker 2
Kind of, like, took it, took the opportunity as literally.

00:39:25:18 - 00:39:30:09
Speaker 1
As I did. But,

00:39:30:12 - 00:39:31:09
Speaker 2
I mean, it was great.

00:39:31:09 - 00:39:33:14
Speaker 1
I've, I've climbed.

00:39:33:16 - 00:39:40:24
Speaker 2
Fucking everything in the park. That's not like, you know, 514 or x rated.

00:39:40:27 - 00:39:45:03
Speaker 1
So. Yeah.

00:39:45:06 - 00:39:45:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:39:45:16 - 00:39:53:29
Speaker 2
It was, it was really cool. I mean, it was, there was definitely this there was definitely several years where it was just truly.

00:39:54:01 - 00:39:58:06
Speaker 1
Truly incredible. And like,

00:39:58:08 - 00:39:59:16
Speaker 2
To get to.

00:39:59:18 - 00:40:01:25
Speaker 1
Really make it, you know, make a.

00:40:01:25 - 00:40:08:18
Speaker 2
Difference in some people's lives was, it's it man. Dude, it's super fulfilling to, like, be like.

00:40:08:18 - 00:40:09:28
Speaker 1
Wow, you, like.

00:40:10:01 - 00:40:11:19
Speaker 2
Totally saved that person. Like they.

00:40:11:19 - 00:40:17:06
Speaker 1
Would have. They would have fucking died had we not, like, intervened.

00:40:17:09 - 00:40:23:02
Speaker 2
And that's that's super fulfilling. It's addictive. Honestly.

00:40:23:04 - 00:40:23:27
Speaker 1
You get you.

00:40:23:27 - 00:40:25:19
Speaker 2
You start to feel like.

00:40:25:21 - 00:40:34:06
Speaker 1
Like, you need that, to, to feel like fulfillment.

00:40:34:09 - 00:40:37:08
Speaker 2
And you start to feel like.

00:40:37:11 - 00:40:39:15
Speaker 1
Like if you're not there.

00:40:39:15 - 00:40:40:01
Speaker 2
To do.

00:40:40:01 - 00:40:41:11
Speaker 1
It, then, like, no one.

00:40:41:11 - 00:40:51:09
Speaker 2
Is, and it's true and it's not true. You know, it's true in the sense that, like, we were the group that was responding.

00:40:51:16 - 00:40:52:26
Speaker 1
But.

00:40:52:29 - 00:40:54:15
Speaker 2
It's not true in the sense that.

00:40:55:23 - 00:40:59:14
Speaker 2
There's a, a healthy number of people.

00:40:59:14 - 00:41:00:09
Speaker 1
That.

00:41:00:11 - 00:41:02:20
Speaker 2
Are willing and capable of doing it.

00:41:02:20 - 00:41:04:08
Speaker 1
And, and.

00:41:04:08 - 00:41:08:21
Speaker 2
You know, search and rescue always gets done.

00:41:10:17 - 00:41:12:00
Speaker 2
It's just the difference between.

00:41:12:00 - 00:41:15:04
Speaker 1
Good and great is,

00:41:15:06 - 00:41:18:19
Speaker 2
Is very minor and under spoken, I would say.

00:41:18:22 - 00:41:19:19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:41:20:08 - 00:41:29:23
Speaker 1
Is it kind of a weird. You had mentioned where, like, you need fulfillment. But if, like you, you're you're wanting fulfillment. But that means someone else has to get injured, right?

00:41:31:13 - 00:41:33:09
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:41:33:09 - 00:41:38:16
Speaker 1
thought process you went through? You're like, okay, I want to, you know, help people, but that means people have got to get fucked up in the first place in.

00:41:38:16 - 00:41:39:04
Speaker 1
So you're kind of like

00:41:39:28 - 00:41:44:27
Speaker 1
No, no, it's not so much that like, I'm not like, you know, staring at.

00:41:44:27 - 00:41:46:15
Speaker 2
People on the summit, like, I hope you.

00:41:46:15 - 00:42:06:15
Speaker 1
Get hit by lightning or, you know, I'm not, like, not like that. Yeah. No. No. Is it was, more in the sense that, like, something always happens. You know, like we were we were nine people.

00:42:06:15 - 00:42:07:17
Speaker 2
And Rocky is.

00:42:07:17 - 00:42:10:27
Speaker 1
Like, one.

00:42:10:27 - 00:42:14:00
Speaker 2
Of the most heavily visited parks in the US.

00:42:14:01 - 00:42:16:24
Speaker 1
And, and, you know.

00:42:16:24 - 00:42:21:07
Speaker 2
Now it's just getting easier and easier to, to,

00:42:21:09 - 00:42:26:14
Speaker 1
You know, go in and get hurt and, you know, we've got we've got Longs.

00:42:26:14 - 00:42:33:29
Speaker 2
Peak, which is like a super attractive for a teenager to do. And, you know, like people literally step off the plane and.

00:42:34:02 - 00:42:35:11
Speaker 1
You know, go to ride.

00:42:35:13 - 00:42:41:03
Speaker 2
Suit up and boot up for furlongs. Like in the face of the storm, you know, just like go for it.

00:42:42:08 - 00:42:53:02
Speaker 2
So, you know, there was no shortage of it. It was more of a sense that like, it's just happening with such, frequency in abundance that you, like, start.

00:42:53:02 - 00:42:56:26
Speaker 1
You know, you're getting woken up in the middle of the night and.

00:42:56:28 - 00:42:58:13
Speaker 2
It really just feels like when.

00:42:58:13 - 00:43:05:03
Speaker 1
You're working there, during the time that you're working there, like you're you.

00:43:05:03 - 00:43:05:18
Speaker 2
Always kind of.

00:43:05:18 - 00:43:07:12
Speaker 1
Have one eye open.

00:43:07:14 - 00:43:08:13
Speaker 2
So you never really get.

00:43:08:13 - 00:43:08:25
Speaker 1
Enough.

00:43:09:02 - 00:43:18:08
Speaker 2
Sleep and that starts to wear and tear on you. So but by the end of the season and peak season, you're just exhausted.

00:43:18:08 - 00:43:26:15
Speaker 1
call 24 over seven? Or do you, like, have strict days off where you're like, all right, you know, Max, you, you know, Thursday through Friday, you're you're not you're not getting called.

00:43:26:22 - 00:43:31:27
Speaker 1
Well, it's it's like wildland fire in the sense that, you're really and.

00:43:32:00 - 00:43:34:27
Speaker 2
You're not necessarily encouraged, but you're incentivized to.

00:43:34:27 - 00:43:37:06
Speaker 1
Work overtime, and.

00:43:37:08 - 00:43:41:18
Speaker 2
Hazard pay and night differential and all that stuff. It's you can really, like rack up.

00:43:41:18 - 00:43:44:22
Speaker 1
Pay when you're doing.

00:43:44:25 - 00:43:50:16
Speaker 2
You know, I always like to work the most like, technical, gnarliest cause because, like.

00:43:50:18 - 00:43:52:20
Speaker 1
You get, you know, when you're working.

00:43:52:20 - 00:43:58:06
Speaker 2
In technical terrain, we called it where like, the consequences of a fall or, you know.

00:43:58:09 - 00:44:01:07
Speaker 1
Dramatic that like, you know, or the.

00:44:01:10 - 00:44:07:00
Speaker 2
The pay just, like, adds up. And so it's super good money. Yeah. So you're kind of just like a mercenary.

00:44:07:03 - 00:44:07:21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:44:07:21 - 00:44:10:20
Speaker 1
it, got it. It's like, you know, here's some work. You're like, oh, yeah, sure

00:44:10:23 - 00:44:14:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And you get you.

00:44:14:06 - 00:44:16:19
Speaker 2
Get jazzed about it, you know, you're psyched to do it.

00:44:16:19 - 00:44:18:10
Speaker 1
You know.

00:44:18:10 - 00:44:27:07
Speaker 1
it's, like, all very intense. And you get into that flow state and, you know, you're it's like a full experience that you're signing yourself up for. It's like being on the front lines.

00:44:27:28 - 00:44:30:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I, I can't compare.

00:44:30:00 - 00:44:32:06
Speaker 2
It to that just because I don't have the experience.

00:44:32:06 - 00:44:36:05
Speaker 1
But. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. No, it's definitely exciting.

00:44:36:05 - 00:44:39:15
Speaker 2
You get excited for sure.

00:44:39:15 - 00:44:48:01
Speaker 1
So I guess I'm not necessarily steering it towards like the dark side, but I definitely want to explore it like the, the yin and the yang.

00:44:48:03 - 00:44:49:23
Speaker 2
What what would be.

00:44:49:25 - 00:45:03:08
Speaker 1
What would you consider the hardest part of the job that you did that an outsider might not expect? Like, you know, other than the obvious, you know, trials and tribulations of the job. You know, people can understand.

00:45:03:18 - 00:45:07:02
Speaker 2
Well I mean there's a really obvious one which is DC that.

00:45:07:02 - 00:45:13:25
Speaker 1
People, you know, I, I, I had seen a dead person before or

00:45:13:28 - 00:45:15:22
Speaker 2
But it was only in passing.

00:45:15:22 - 00:45:20:15
Speaker 1
And, you, you really. Yeah.

00:45:20:17 - 00:45:24:01
Speaker 2
You see, you see people die.

00:45:24:04 - 00:45:24:26
Speaker 1
And that.

00:45:24:26 - 00:45:29:29
Speaker 2
Is not really discussed. Like.

00:45:30:02 - 00:45:32:06
Speaker 1
Upon hire.

00:45:32:08 - 00:45:34:23
Speaker 2
It's just kind of assumed.

00:45:34:26 - 00:45:37:15
Speaker 1
And I knew that, like, I knew the.

00:45:37:15 - 00:45:40:10
Speaker 2
Day was coming for me where I was going to have to kind of, like.

00:45:40:10 - 00:45:45:27
Speaker 1
Cross that, barrier and kind of get more.

00:45:46:00 - 00:45:47:29
Speaker 2
Exposure to death.

00:45:49:22 - 00:45:56:12
Speaker 2
And two life changing accidents.

00:45:56:15 - 00:46:00:04
Speaker 1
And, you know, it.

00:46:00:06 - 00:46:06:04
Speaker 2
It's a weird one because it's, it's kind of one of these things where, like, no one really knows.

00:46:06:04 - 00:46:10:27
Speaker 1
You never know how you're going to react, act,

00:46:10:29 - 00:46:17:01
Speaker 2
Until you are put in that environment.

00:46:17:03 - 00:46:26:16
Speaker 1
Excuse me. And I found that, I actually found that I work quite well, and, really.

00:46:26:16 - 00:46:29:11
Speaker 2
High stress environments.

00:46:29:14 - 00:46:32:10
Speaker 1
You know, I my kind of chill, bro.

00:46:32:12 - 00:46:34:25
Speaker 2
Sounding attitude and.

00:46:34:25 - 00:46:35:25
Speaker 1
Demeanor.

00:46:35:27 - 00:46:39:12
Speaker 2
Kind of like, translates to calmness and is like.

00:46:40:14 - 00:46:47:17
Speaker 2
And and these really high stress, situations. And so that allowed me to kind of like.

00:46:47:19 - 00:46:53:11
Speaker 1
Really think, clearly, and

00:46:53:14 - 00:46:56:28
Speaker 2
In times where I could, you know, see that sometimes my colleagues.

00:46:57:01 - 00:47:00:05
Speaker 1
Would really not.

00:47:00:07 - 00:47:06:22
Speaker 2
But there's, there's also, there's also this kind of.

00:47:06:24 - 00:47:08:12
Speaker 1
There's a slow burn to it.

00:47:08:12 - 00:47:10:14
Speaker 2
As well.

00:47:10:17 - 00:47:17:02
Speaker 1
And that is what got me, and I didn't really realize, you know. Yeah.

00:47:17:02 - 00:47:22:07
Speaker 2
The really tough thing about it is you don't really realize what's going on.

00:47:22:10 - 00:47:24:29
Speaker 1
Until you're, you know, you don't know.

00:47:24:29 - 00:47:29:28
Speaker 2
When you've crossed the line until you're, like, way past it and you're like, this is, you know.

00:47:29:28 - 00:47:39:05
Speaker 1
It's like I'm not normal. And I think for me, what it was is, I'm generally a.

00:47:39:05 - 00:47:41:10
Speaker 2
Very compassionate person.

00:47:43:11 - 00:47:50:11
Speaker 2
You know, I kind of absorb, as I've always kind of been an observer. And it's really hard for me to.

00:47:50:11 - 00:47:54:00
Speaker 1
Like, compartmentalize.

00:47:54:03 - 00:47:59:28
Speaker 2
Some of these accidents and not just, like, be like, what was this person like?

00:47:59:28 - 00:48:00:09
Speaker 1
You know.

00:48:00:09 - 00:48:10:28
Speaker 2
Like, what was their life like who's who's affected by their life and, you know, sometimes you get flashed looks that just like or you see, shit, there's just like.

00:48:11:04 - 00:48:15:24
Speaker 1
You know, you're like, that's never going anywhere.

00:48:15:24 - 00:48:17:24
Speaker 2
Like I'm going to remember that for the rest of my.

00:48:17:24 - 00:48:28:28
Speaker 1
Life, you know, and, yeah. And I don't know, I could go on and on about that. It's just. Yeah.

00:48:28:28 - 00:48:38:22
Speaker 1
maybe, specific, impactful, you know, accident that you responded to that, you're willing to share that kind of, like, paints the picture of what

00:48:42:23 - 00:48:49:27
Speaker 1
Well, I, I mean, I, I think, I don't want to get, like.

00:48:49:27 - 00:48:54:06
Speaker 2
Too specific just because, I want to respect.

00:48:54:08 - 00:49:00:20
Speaker 1
The people that are involved, you know, like, you know, oh, oh, HIPAA rights.

00:49:00:20 - 00:49:03:13
Speaker 2
Aside, and stuff like that. I just.

00:49:03:15 - 00:49:04:26
Speaker 1
It's,

00:49:04:28 - 00:49:08:14
Speaker 2
It's I don't feel like it's necessarily my place.

00:49:08:16 - 00:49:13:04
Speaker 1
But I think some of the more traumatic.

00:49:13:07 - 00:49:14:00
Speaker 2
Incidents I've.

00:49:14:00 - 00:49:23:24
Speaker 1
Been a part of for. Man. There, there's. Yeah, there's so many, I think a a good way to look at.

00:49:23:24 - 00:49:25:00
Speaker 2
It is,

00:49:25:02 - 00:49:26:20
Speaker 1
We all, when we're.

00:49:26:20 - 00:49:44:13
Speaker 2
Entering this world, of like sa or a really emergency response. We all have this list, in our subconscious. And like, for me, it's like.

00:49:44:16 - 00:49:54:19
Speaker 1
Friend, family, climber, you know, climber. I know child, woman.

00:49:54:22 - 00:49:56:24
Speaker 2
You see where I'm going with this?

00:49:56:26 - 00:50:13:10
Speaker 1
And then like, the more boxes that you check, the more that it, like, will have a lasting effect on you. So, you know, I I've done, I've done, like.

00:50:13:10 - 00:50:15:00
Speaker 2
Climber fall recoveries on.

00:50:15:00 - 00:50:17:22
Speaker 1
The diamond. And, you know.

00:50:17:22 - 00:50:19:24
Speaker 2
It was really hard for me to.

00:50:19:28 - 00:50:26:25
Speaker 1
Go back there. And, you know, I even when I'm, I still like, can.

00:50:26:27 - 00:50:34:12
Speaker 2
You know, it's just stuff still in your mind. You just kind of, like, learn how to,

00:50:34:14 - 00:50:36:01
Speaker 1
You just kind of learn how to hold.

00:50:36:01 - 00:50:37:07
Speaker 2
These things.

00:50:37:10 - 00:50:38:11
Speaker 1
A little bit better and a.

00:50:38:11 - 00:50:44:06
Speaker 2
Little bit softer so that it doesn't, just cut you every time.

00:50:44:08 - 00:50:45:24
Speaker 1
And it's not, like, boring.

00:50:46:01 - 00:50:48:16
Speaker 2
It's more like.

00:50:48:19 - 00:50:49:19
Speaker 1
It's more like you got to.

00:50:49:19 - 00:50:50:17
Speaker 2
Process this.

00:50:50:17 - 00:51:01:03
Speaker 1
Stuff. And, Yeah, I mean, I've had ones that, really,

00:51:01:05 - 00:51:05:07
Speaker 2
Were just, like, so stressful, you know, like, for, for example.

00:51:05:07 - 00:51:15:07
Speaker 1
Like, I, I feel like I'm pretty good at trauma response. But medical calls, I find,

00:51:15:09 - 00:51:17:23
Speaker 2
Super intimidating because,

00:51:17:25 - 00:51:20:03
Speaker 1
You know, we have very little.

00:51:20:06 - 00:51:25:10
Speaker 2
Tools to kind of, like, diagnose stuff in the field. So when people are really sick.

00:51:27:10 - 00:51:37:23
Speaker 2
For medical reasons, in, like, a backcountry setting, it's like, super intimidating. And there's only so much that you can do, you know? So I've had, like,

00:51:37:26 - 00:51:40:01
Speaker 1
Just, like.

00:51:40:03 - 00:51:44:00
Speaker 2
Seizures at, above treeline and.

00:51:45:03 - 00:51:46:08
Speaker 2
In the backcountry, there's just.

00:51:46:08 - 00:51:48:27
Speaker 1
Like, oh, that's like holyfuck. This is so.

00:51:48:27 - 00:51:53:00
Speaker 2
Intense. You know, just like trying to keep a person alive and stuff like that.

00:51:54:10 - 00:51:55:27
Speaker 2
Searches actually.

00:51:55:27 - 00:51:57:11
Speaker 1
I found,

00:51:57:13 - 00:52:02:22
Speaker 2
Super draining. Searches can be so draining.

00:52:02:25 - 00:52:06:20
Speaker 1
Especially like when you don't find them,

00:52:06:22 - 00:52:10:04
Speaker 2
Because it feels like.

00:52:10:06 - 00:52:13:23
Speaker 1
Well, I actually made this mistake on,

00:52:13:26 - 00:52:16:22
Speaker 2
The first, like, big search I was a part of where.

00:52:16:25 - 00:52:17:12
Speaker 1
It took.

00:52:17:12 - 00:52:20:16
Speaker 2
Months to find this person.

00:52:20:18 - 00:52:27:15
Speaker 1
And, it feels like, the only thing I.

00:52:27:15 - 00:52:36:18
Speaker 2
Could related to was, like, a cold case for detectives. You know, it's like you're so invested in this thing that you just, like, can't figure it out.

00:52:36:21 - 00:52:37:22
Speaker 1
And you get.

00:52:37:22 - 00:52:40:28
Speaker 2
Into this headspace where you're like.

00:52:41:00 - 00:52:51:02
Speaker 1
You're, like, around every tree, around under every rock could be a body. And that, that is a.

00:52:51:04 - 00:52:54:07
Speaker 2
Proper slow burn man, that really.

00:52:54:09 - 00:52:59:25
Speaker 1
Will eat at you if you let it. And so I learned to, like, not get.

00:53:00:00 - 00:53:03:02
Speaker 2
As invested, in searches.

00:53:03:04 - 00:53:09:09
Speaker 1
After that. Just kind of like do your, do your part and like, dump. Don't overthink it.

00:53:09:09 - 00:53:11:09
Speaker 2
Don't destroy yourself, you know?

00:53:11:11 - 00:53:13:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. No.

00:53:13:25 - 00:53:33:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's heavy. Man. The. There's just like a just a serious profession. Just to be put in all these different situations of, like, people dying, people already dead, people missing, like to some heavy shit. And like, you know, each person going through it is like, that's, you know, that's some serious stuff for themselves. And you're just right there, you know, alongside

00:53:35:16 - 00:53:40:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. My heart goes out to, Yeah.

00:53:40:19 - 00:53:43:02
Speaker 2
My heart goes out to the people that do it.

00:53:43:04 - 00:53:45:15
Speaker 1
I, in all.

00:53:45:15 - 00:53:47:25
Speaker 2
Domains, you know.

00:53:47:27 - 00:53:49:27
Speaker 1
You know, we are. We were a niche.

00:53:49:27 - 00:53:56:03
Speaker 2
Work group that got to go climbing and stuff, but, you know, there's people in every city.

00:53:56:06 - 00:53:56:29
Speaker 1
Scraping people.

00:53:56:29 - 00:53:57:09
Speaker 2
Off of the.

00:53:57:09 - 00:54:00:04
Speaker 1
Pavement every day. And.

00:54:00:04 - 00:54:01:13
Speaker 2
They don't get.

00:54:01:16 - 00:54:01:29
Speaker 1
Paid.

00:54:01:29 - 00:54:02:20
Speaker 2
Very much at.

00:54:02:20 - 00:54:04:22
Speaker 1
All. And,

00:54:04:24 - 00:54:08:19
Speaker 2
It's the nature of emergency services in our country.

00:54:08:19 - 00:54:14:15
Speaker 1
And, you know, I think that those people deserve more. I think that.

00:54:14:15 - 00:54:28:19
Speaker 2
There's culturally more we could do about just kind of like recognizing that death is a part of life and, kind of better preparing us for it because I.

00:54:28:21 - 00:54:30:11
Speaker 1
I came into the job with kind of.

00:54:30:11 - 00:54:31:12
Speaker 2
A curiosity.

00:54:31:18 - 00:54:33:06
Speaker 1
With death, and I.

00:54:33:06 - 00:54:35:19
Speaker 2
Feel like I just got thrown in the fucking deep.

00:54:35:19 - 00:54:39:26
Speaker 1
End and, you know, barely crawled out.

00:54:40:03 - 00:54:43:14
Speaker 2
Just like.

00:54:43:17 - 00:54:43:28
Speaker 1
I've done a.

00:54:43:28 - 00:55:01:13
Speaker 2
Lot of, like, processing since then. And I'm still, you know, still process. I mean, I still don't know what the fuck happens after you die and all that stuff. But there's, like I said earlier, there's this kind of a got more space to to kind of hold it.

00:55:01:16 - 00:55:02:02
Speaker 1
A little bit.

00:55:02:07 - 00:55:03:04
Speaker 2
Softer.

00:55:03:04 - 00:55:06:19
Speaker 1
And I don't.

00:55:06:22 - 00:55:09:22
Speaker 2
I try not to like.

00:55:09:24 - 00:55:12:10
Speaker 1
I try not to just like.

00:55:12:10 - 00:55:13:10
Speaker 2
Pretend it's not.

00:55:13:10 - 00:55:14:24
Speaker 1
There.

00:55:14:26 - 00:55:18:00
Speaker 2
I think that that's like,

00:55:18:00 - 00:55:23:14
Speaker 2
I think that that's a big mistake that.

00:55:23:16 - 00:55:25:04
Speaker 1
We make,

00:55:25:06 - 00:55:26:04
Speaker 2
In society.

00:55:26:04 - 00:55:28:14
Speaker 1
And, climbing, you.

00:55:28:14 - 00:55:30:11
Speaker 2
Know, is, is to just pretend.

00:55:30:11 - 00:55:31:09
Speaker 1
That.

00:55:31:11 - 00:55:32:16
Speaker 2
The risk isn't.

00:55:32:16 - 00:55:38:25
Speaker 1
There. And, I yeah.

00:55:38:25 - 00:55:47:16
Speaker 2
I think it's important to kind of like, be aware of of the, of the dangers that that surround you.

00:55:47:18 - 00:55:52:02
Speaker 1
Don't let them, don't let them overwhelm.

00:55:52:02 - 00:55:54:02
Speaker 2
You and consume you.

00:55:54:04 - 00:55:56:04
Speaker 1
But, you know, it's.

00:55:56:04 - 00:55:58:12
Speaker 2
Foolish not to.

00:55:58:14 - 00:55:59:16
Speaker 1
You know.

00:55:59:18 - 00:56:03:21
Speaker 2
It's foolish not to be aware that if you're on a two lane road.

00:56:03:21 - 00:56:04:13
Speaker 1
And.

00:56:04:16 - 00:56:06:15
Speaker 2
You swerve into the other land.

00:56:06:17 - 00:56:07:23
Speaker 1
And you get it head on.

00:56:07:23 - 00:56:17:07
Speaker 2
You're going to die, you know, or likely or kill somebody, you know, it's like, I feel like, yeah, it's good to not to be grim.

00:56:17:07 - 00:56:20:22
Speaker 1
But you know.

00:56:20:22 - 00:56:35:05
Speaker 1
know, climbing can be really fun, and it's the risk and the understanding of how exposed you are and close you are to death. At times that can really freak people out and and take away from the experience. Right? If you were scared

00:56:37:22 - 00:56:39:28
Speaker 1
Right.

00:56:39:28 - 00:57:03:10
Speaker 1
balance in a one way to handle it is to just completely go the other way. And just like, just like you said, ignore the risk entirely. And just like get, absorbed in the in the moment and absorbed in the experience of climbing. And that's really awesome. It's super fun. But it's also really risky because it's really easy to make mistakes and it's really easy to slip up and all of a sudden you're either dead or, you know, you were in

00:57:05:05 - 00:57:08:25
Speaker 1
Right.

00:57:08:25 - 00:57:14:13
Speaker 1
anchor sometimes and I'm just like, oh, my weight's on the anchor. And I'm just like, you know, this

00:57:27:05 - 00:57:30:07
Speaker 1
Right. Yeah.

00:57:30:07 - 00:57:36:02
Speaker 1
You can't think about it all the time, but, you know, there is respect that you need to have for, you know, the position that we're

00:57:37:12 - 00:57:39:16
Speaker 1
Totally. I mean, I, I think that a really.

00:57:39:16 - 00:57:42:06
Speaker 2
Tangible approach is, is to just kind.

00:57:42:06 - 00:57:44:22
Speaker 1
Of,

00:57:44:25 - 00:57:57:06
Speaker 2
Continuously ask yourself in the mountains, like, what are the consequences of this decision going awry? You know, so, like, what are the consequences of, like, if I decide.

00:57:57:06 - 00:58:08:03
Speaker 1
To make my way to that, you know, anchor on road if I slip there, like what? I fall to my death, like.

00:58:08:03 - 00:58:20:28
Speaker 2
Well, if that's the case, like what? What can I do to mitigate that risk? You know, like, what are the consequences of me, like punching it above this piece of gear? Like, if that piece rips, will there be another piece below it?

00:58:20:28 - 00:58:22:29
Speaker 1
Or like, you know, I think you can manage.

00:58:22:29 - 00:58:24:09
Speaker 2
Risk a lot if.

00:58:24:09 - 00:58:32:06
Speaker 1
You if you're aware of it. And you can.

00:58:32:08 - 00:58:37:08
Speaker 2
You can kind of like break it down into, you know, components.

00:58:37:08 - 00:58:42:16
Speaker 1
That that can be individually managed. And yeah, you never I mean.

00:58:42:19 - 00:58:44:22
Speaker 2
It's an inherently dangerous activity.

00:58:44:22 - 00:58:51:16
Speaker 1
It's true. But like, I think the, Yeah.

00:58:51:22 - 00:58:57:01
Speaker 2
Gone is my mantra of just don't fall. You know, I think that that's just naive.

00:58:57:04 - 00:58:59:08
Speaker 1
You know?

00:58:59:08 - 00:59:20:28
Speaker 1
So I think the part of risk management is our relationship and our probability in our own mind towards, like, coming off the wall. Right? It's like, I feel like we each have our own relationship and with our connection to the wall. And I would say, you know, if you're able to read the rock and, you know, move, you know, climbing movement efficiently enough, you could judge, like, whether or not you're going to be able to do what's in front of you, right?

00:59:20:28 - 00:59:40:16
Speaker 1
You're like, you know, I might come off this not really sure. Or you're like, dude, I've got this. This is like 100% within my ability. Do you ever, you know, if you let's say the probability is like in your head, you're like, dude, this is 99% like something an earthquake would have to happen. A bird would have to come and swoop me off the wall like and like, would you ever make the decision now?

00:59:40:16 - 00:59:46:22
Speaker 1
Like, in a high probability of nothing going wrong? Still the consequence being death. Like, do you ever put yourself

00:59:50:11 - 00:59:53:00
Speaker 1
And.

00:59:53:09 - 00:59:54:22
Speaker 1
Because, I mean, I'll speak for myself, I

00:59:54:22 - 00:59:58:29
Speaker 1
Yeah. For. Yeah, for. I mean,

00:59:59:01 - 01:00:02:05
Speaker 2
This is my wife's probably going to hear this later on, so I just.

01:00:02:07 - 01:00:04:15
Speaker 1
But. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you do.

01:00:04:15 - 01:00:05:18
Speaker 2
It's the reality.

01:00:05:18 - 01:00:12:13
Speaker 1
Of climbing in the mountains. Yeah. I, you know, I, I try.

01:00:12:13 - 01:00:13:23
Speaker 2
To manage risk as much as I.

01:00:13:23 - 01:00:17:19
Speaker 1
Can. And what I.

01:00:17:21 - 01:00:22:12
Speaker 2
What I try to do is,

01:00:22:14 - 01:00:29:17
Speaker 2
Like, subjective hazards. I try to manage as best as I can.

01:00:29:17 - 01:00:31:23
Speaker 1
But, you know, objective.

01:00:31:23 - 01:00:35:23
Speaker 2
Hazards, rockfall and stuff like that. I just.

01:00:35:25 - 01:00:40:29
Speaker 1
You know, I you can't you can't,

01:00:41:01 - 01:00:46:05
Speaker 2
You can't, like, trick that away. And so I think.

01:00:46:08 - 01:00:46:23
Speaker 1
Right.

01:00:46:23 - 01:00:47:19
Speaker 2
And so for.

01:00:47:19 - 01:00:48:25
Speaker 1
Me, it kind.

01:00:48:25 - 01:00:49:29
Speaker 2
Of comes down to this.

01:00:49:29 - 01:00:54:19
Speaker 1
Like, well, I want to live a fulfilled life.

01:00:54:19 - 01:00:56:25
Speaker 2
And this is how.

01:00:56:27 - 01:01:02:03
Speaker 1
I feel, fulfillment in life and, so I don't.

01:01:02:03 - 01:01:04:08
Speaker 2
Want to deprive myself.

01:01:04:09 - 01:01:09:06
Speaker 1
Of, you know, all of the valuable.

01:01:09:06 - 01:01:10:01
Speaker 2
Things that come.

01:01:10:01 - 01:01:18:09
Speaker 1
With, growth through, climbing. Just out of fear of death.

01:01:18:09 - 01:01:18:20
Speaker 1
I mean.

01:01:18:20 - 01:01:22:28
Speaker 2
I think that kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier. You just, you know, just fearing death.

01:01:22:28 - 01:01:28:28
Speaker 1
But life would be pretty fucking boring, wouldn't it? You know? Yeah. You would. Yeah.

01:01:28:29 - 01:01:30:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Just live at home.

01:01:30:02 - 01:01:30:19
Speaker 1
In the dark.

01:01:30:19 - 01:01:31:03
Speaker 2
Just like.

01:01:31:03 - 01:01:42:06
Speaker 1
Oh, God. You know. You probably would. Yeah. Stress. Yeah. Yeah for sure. Yeah sure.

01:01:42:06 - 01:02:03:00
Speaker 1
the SA experience. I got two more things I'd like to cover. First thing is, you, you know, I think you it seems like you've definitely experienced, you know, PTSD symptoms from the trauma experienced through these experiences. And you had mentioned the word processing those experiences kind of twice. We've talked a lot about PTSD on the show.

01:02:03:02 - 01:02:22:05
Speaker 1
And funny enough, climbing tends to be the vehicle for processing trauma and processing PTSD. But your seems climbing specific, right? So what was your vehicle for? For processing trauma and and death. Like how did you, how are

01:02:26:04 - 01:02:31:20
Speaker 1
Well, when it, when it was really bad,

01:02:31:22 - 01:02:38:22
Speaker 2
It actually just, it kind of just started like.

01:02:38:25 - 01:02:43:19
Speaker 1
Well, I, I need to do things that make me happy. I need to.

01:02:43:19 - 01:02:45:19
Speaker 2
Do things that.

01:02:45:22 - 01:02:51:29
Speaker 1
Make me feel an enjoyment for life. Like, I need.

01:02:51:29 - 01:02:54:06
Speaker 2
To see the color and the beauty of life.

01:02:54:06 - 01:02:56:11
Speaker 1
Again.

01:02:56:14 - 01:03:05:12
Speaker 2
And so, that started with just like. Oh, man, I want to go outside. Just, like, steal the sun on my face.

01:03:05:15 - 01:03:06:28
Speaker 1
And that, you know.

01:03:07:01 - 01:03:08:03
Speaker 2
And then it was like, oh, I.

01:03:08:03 - 01:03:10:20
Speaker 1
Want to go on a walk. And then.

01:03:10:22 - 01:03:11:26
Speaker 2
And then I was like, I.

01:03:11:26 - 01:03:16:04
Speaker 1
Want to I'm going to go on a run. And, you know, I like.

01:03:16:06 - 01:03:17:03
Speaker 2
I like just the.

01:03:17:03 - 01:03:20:06
Speaker 1
Feeling of going on a run in.

01:03:20:08 - 01:03:21:10
Speaker 2
The woods or something.

01:03:21:10 - 01:03:36:08
Speaker 1
Like that. And, and then over time, you know, I kind of would be like, oh, I, you know, I, I, I should try bouldering again. You know, I love, I love bouldering, I love climbing and.

01:03:36:11 - 01:03:55:10
Speaker 2
Just, you know, the ease of life and the simplicity of it and just kind of like, it's such a nice vehicle for being in nature. And so, yeah, it was just kind of this, like, slow, organic kind of, wading into the water again.

01:03:55:12 - 01:03:55:28
Speaker 1
I mean, I think.

01:03:55:28 - 01:03:57:10
Speaker 2
Really just fundamentally.

01:03:57:10 - 01:03:58:05
Speaker 1
It's.

01:03:58:08 - 01:04:00:03
Speaker 2
It's something that I really enjoy.

01:04:00:03 - 01:04:00:24
Speaker 1
And.

01:04:00:26 - 01:04:07:02
Speaker 2
It brings me happiness. So I just kind of had to find a way to, reintroduce that into.

01:04:07:02 - 01:04:29:28
Speaker 1
My life to, You know, get that, get that, get that feeling without, with, causing more pain, you know, and.

01:04:30:01 - 01:04:36:19
Speaker 1
Not less, not really cold turkey. And I never really stopped climbing.

01:04:36:19 - 01:04:44:04
Speaker 2
I mean, I was kind of forced to, out of necessity through, like, a series of traumatic events.

01:04:44:07 - 01:04:54:10
Speaker 1
But, it was never really for that long of a period. But I've changed the way that.

01:04:54:10 - 01:05:07:08
Speaker 2
I climb significantly, you know, like, from really dramatic to like, no, I don't free solo anymore, to very subtle.

01:05:07:08 - 01:05:18:00
Speaker 1
Like, I don't know. I try to be really intentional about the big.

01:05:18:00 - 01:05:18:29
Speaker 2
Routes that I want to.

01:05:18:29 - 01:05:21:16
Speaker 1
Do, and I, I, I really.

01:05:21:18 - 01:05:22:24
Speaker 2
Try to listen to my heart.

01:05:22:24 - 01:05:28:16
Speaker 1
Like, and make sure that,

01:05:28:19 - 01:05:33:02
Speaker 2
Kind of my passion is behind.

01:05:33:04 - 01:05:35:29
Speaker 1
My intention rather than.

01:05:36:02 - 01:05:38:15
Speaker 2
Just doing something.

01:05:38:25 - 01:05:40:08
Speaker 2
Because I feel like I.

01:05:40:09 - 01:05:43:09
Speaker 1
Should or.

01:05:43:11 - 01:05:48:02
Speaker 2
You know, need to for merit or success or whatever.

01:05:51:06 - 01:05:54:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I'm not one of these climbers.

01:05:54:20 - 01:05:55:06
Speaker 2
This is, like.

01:05:55:06 - 01:05:57:22
Speaker 1
Driven by ego. I mean, I can't.

01:05:57:22 - 01:06:00:19
Speaker 2
Really speak for my 20s, unfortunately, I, I feel like every 20 year old.

01:06:00:19 - 01:06:09:03
Speaker 1
Male, like, has a little bit of a chip on their shoulder. Yeah. You know, you got to get through that. But, but now I.

01:06:09:05 - 01:06:25:28
Speaker 2
Definitely try to be, kind of more just kind of fueled by, like, what are the things that I really want to do with my life? And when am I willing to kind of accept, a little bit more of a challenge? In the spirit of adventure.

01:06:26:00 - 01:06:27:08
Speaker 1
And I mean, I think that.

01:06:27:08 - 01:06:37:09
Speaker 2
Goes that feeling and that desire goes back to early on in my childhood when I was just, I was always kind of really, really eager to just explore.

01:06:37:09 - 01:06:40:18
Speaker 1
And kind of,

01:06:40:20 - 01:06:44:15
Speaker 2
Yeah, just go on many adventures, you know?

01:06:44:17 - 01:06:45:18
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:06:45:18 - 01:06:46:19
Speaker 2


01:06:46:21 - 01:06:59:29
Speaker 1
Before we move on to your, list of of remarkable first ascents, I want to wrap up, this our experience just with, like, maybe something like a lesson that people can pull from. So,

01:06:59:29 - 01:07:19:15
Speaker 1
we talked about subjective and objective risks. You've seen a lot of accidents. Like, is there a common thread? Is there a majority of like, is there a, like a major reason why most of these people got into accidents? Like, was it out too far on their own limb? Was it always objective hazard? Like what was there? Was there a, sort of looking for it?

01:07:19:15 - 01:07:26:16
Speaker 1
Was there like a common thread amongst things that people could maybe extrapolate how to avoid that? From.

01:07:29:26 - 01:07:33:00
Speaker 1
Man, I really don't think there's a.

01:07:33:02 - 01:07:36:12
Speaker 2
There's an alarming randomness to it all.

01:07:38:27 - 01:07:43:05
Speaker 2
It's kind of crazy. Yeah. I mean, there's,

01:07:43:29 - 01:07:49:14
Speaker 2
I always kind of would say, like the one guarantee is that it's not going to be what we expect.

01:07:49:14 - 01:07:56:09
Speaker 1
You know, that's, you know, I do think that I've, I've already.

01:07:56:09 - 01:07:57:02
Speaker 2
Mentioned one of.

01:07:57:02 - 01:07:58:05
Speaker 1
Them.

01:07:58:07 - 01:08:01:13
Speaker 2
And that's just, I think that culturally, in.

01:08:01:13 - 01:08:09:13
Speaker 1
Climbing, we kind of ignore much. We ignore the, the risks. And I, you know, I.

01:08:09:13 - 01:08:11:06
Speaker 2
Think it'd be great to see.

01:08:11:09 - 01:08:15:28
Speaker 1
Kind of more.

01:08:16:00 - 01:08:17:19
Speaker 2
Just awareness towards it.

01:08:17:22 - 01:08:19:21
Speaker 1
I mean, we're never going to we're never.

01:08:19:21 - 01:08:20:15
Speaker 2
Going to, like, talk.

01:08:20:15 - 01:08:25:26
Speaker 1
People, out of it. You know, I think from a, even from a.

01:08:25:27 - 01:08:39:11
Speaker 2
Evolutionary perspective, like, it makes sense to kind of celebrate bravery and, you know, continuing in the face of adversity and stuff like that.

01:08:39:13 - 01:08:40:00
Speaker 1
But I think.

01:08:40:00 - 01:08:40:15
Speaker 2
Just.

01:08:40:15 - 01:08:43:15
Speaker 1
More, more, more.

01:08:43:15 - 01:08:44:27
Speaker 2
Just awareness, I.

01:08:44:27 - 01:08:54:19
Speaker 1
Think could, could maybe help, the youth, you know, but,

01:08:54:19 - 01:09:16:26
Speaker 1
this on, our meet and greet. It's like the. It's really hard to to convey the seriousness of of climbing risks to someone who hasn't experienced it firsthand, even when you witness it, you know, in close proximity to you, it doesn't really hit the same as if it happens to you or to your climbing partner, or like on the wall with you.

01:09:16:29 - 01:09:38:22
Speaker 1
And, you know, I, I even asked this to put to Paul Ramsden and he's, you know, he agreed. He's like, you never really understand, you know, what it is that you know, you're, you're currently talking about until you've actually experienced it. And, and so it's like, it's hard because, you know, you feel like these, these conversations at least and risk and trying to persuade people to, to have these revelations.

01:09:38:22 - 01:09:53:13
Speaker 1
It's like almost wasted wind. Right? Because it's like people are going to do what they going to do. But, you know, at least hopefully subconsciously, you know, these conversations help promote, you know, a more positive mindset and a more risk averse mindset and making people a little bit more

01:09:53:28 - 01:10:01:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I think if there's any way to handle it, which arguably, maybe there isn't, but if.

01:10:01:19 - 01:10:03:06
Speaker 2
There's any way to handle this, just to.

01:10:03:09 - 01:10:06:01
Speaker 1
Give people, a little bit more of a.

01:10:06:01 - 01:10:13:16
Speaker 2
Skill set in assessing risk rather than necessarily saying like, oh, what you're doing is dangerous, but it's like.

01:10:13:18 - 01:10:15:07
Speaker 1
You know, giving people.

01:10:15:09 - 01:10:21:12
Speaker 2
The skills like, you know, like avalanche education gives people the skills to be able to kind of like assess.

01:10:21:14 - 01:10:22:01
Speaker 1
An unknown.

01:10:22:01 - 01:10:25:00
Speaker 2
Risk.

01:10:25:03 - 01:10:44:22
Speaker 1
And we can do that in climbing, I think a little bit better. But yeah. No, I totally agree. There is, there is, there is one other pattern that I feel like, I have seen in a lot of accidents.

01:10:44:24 - 01:10:47:25
Speaker 2
And this is something that has really affected me.

01:10:47:25 - 01:10:55:08
Speaker 1
And, I think a lot of bad things happen, when people.

01:10:55:08 - 01:10:59:28
Speaker 2
Make haste. And so.

01:11:00:00 - 01:11:04:27
Speaker 1
You know, next time you're, you know, rappelling in the dark.

01:11:05:03 - 01:11:10:00
Speaker 2
And it's raining or a storm is coming or you're in a storm.

01:11:10:00 - 01:11:12:17
Speaker 1
You know,

01:11:12:19 - 01:11:20:14
Speaker 2
And you're finding yourself having to be you're finding yourself moving faster because you want to get the fuck out of there.

01:11:20:16 - 01:11:24:24
Speaker 1
You know, I think that, for me now, like.

01:11:24:24 - 01:11:25:23
Speaker 2
A light goes on in.

01:11:25:23 - 01:11:26:10
Speaker 1
My head.

01:11:26:10 - 01:11:35:05
Speaker 2
That says, like, okay, you know, like buying yourself a few extra seconds by moving a little bit faster.

01:11:35:07 - 01:11:38:05
Speaker 1
Could kill you when.

01:11:38:07 - 01:11:39:20
Speaker 2
If you just take a.

01:11:39:20 - 01:11:41:21
Speaker 1
Few breaths and move.

01:11:41:21 - 01:11:42:08
Speaker 2
Just.

01:11:42:10 - 01:11:44:04
Speaker 1
More,

01:11:44:06 - 01:11:47:10
Speaker 2
Slowly and steadily.

01:11:47:12 - 01:11:50:21
Speaker 1
You you're you'll get down, maybe a.

01:11:50:21 - 01:11:51:26
Speaker 2
Few minutes later.

01:11:51:26 - 01:11:53:24
Speaker 1
But, it can make a.

01:11:53:24 - 01:11:54:22
Speaker 2
Huge difference.

01:11:54:22 - 01:11:55:23
Speaker 1
And, and I.

01:11:55:25 - 01:12:00:02
Speaker 2
I, I do feel like a lot of.

01:12:00:04 - 01:12:03:03
Speaker 1
A lot of the, the,

01:12:03:06 - 01:12:04:27
Speaker 2
Bad incidents as a part.

01:12:04:27 - 01:12:08:04
Speaker 1
Of where, the product of people.

01:12:08:04 - 01:12:24:06
Speaker 2
Making decisions kind of, quickly to, to just kind of like, remove themselves from, from a hazardous area. But, sometimes that can be.

01:12:24:08 - 01:12:46:00
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:12:46:03 - 01:12:46:12
Speaker 1
Right.

01:12:46:15 - 01:12:47:13
Speaker 2
Exactly.

01:12:47:15 - 01:12:51:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, the.

01:12:51:10 - 01:12:52:07
Speaker 2
Most of the accidents.

01:12:52:07 - 01:12:54:23
Speaker 1
Happen on the site, you know, and.

01:12:54:26 - 01:13:10:25
Speaker 2
That's, it's, it's good to remember. It's good to leave stuff in the tank, but it's also like, a lot of times we have stuff in the tank, but we just, like, want to get back to snacks and bed and all that's, you know, creature comforts. And.

01:13:10:27 - 01:13:13:23
Speaker 1
I think that,

01:13:13:25 - 01:13:17:29
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's certainly like a voice that comes on in my head.

01:13:18:01 - 01:13:27:27
Speaker 1
You know,

01:13:30:03 - 01:13:48:09
Speaker 1
really want to dive into your to your first ascents. And, you know, we've got so many to talk about. So, yeah, I mean, the first thing I want to kind of just to, to extrapolate out of this is, you know, a lot of us joke about first, since when were you not a joke?

01:13:48:09 - 01:14:08:14
Speaker 1
But we have just like, you know, me said, I want to climb secretary like, you know, oh, we know where the lines, you know, you're driving around and looking at cliffs like, oh, there's so many lines up there, bro. You know, like, oh, I think that crack would go and like, you know, there's a huge valley between doing that and actually going out and like establishing first ascents and being an adventurer in that sense.

01:14:08:14 - 01:14:19:17
Speaker 1
So did first ascents always call to you? Like, when did you bridge that gap and like, when did you, you know, consider yourself, you know, a true first essentialist.

01:14:21:08 - 01:14:28:02
Speaker 1
If you've been enjoying the show, please like, subscribe and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the best ways

01:14:30:03 - 01:14:32:01
Speaker 1
I mean, I don't I don't even know if.

01:14:32:01 - 01:14:36:12
Speaker 2
I necessarily still consider myself a true first essentialist, honestly.

01:14:36:12 - 01:14:42:05
Speaker 1
But I, I, I, I think I've always been.

01:14:42:07 - 01:14:43:12
Speaker 2
I guess I've always kind.

01:14:43:12 - 01:14:45:04
Speaker 1
Of held it.

01:14:45:06 - 01:14:49:19
Speaker 2
As, like, an opportunity to.

01:14:49:21 - 01:14:50:01
Speaker 1
Kind of.

01:14:50:01 - 01:14:52:22
Speaker 2
Test all of the skills that I've learned.

01:14:52:26 - 01:14:56:02
Speaker 1
In climbing.

01:14:56:04 - 01:15:00:28
Speaker 2
To just be like, oh, let's try to let's try to create something.

01:15:00:28 - 01:15:12:04
Speaker 1
Let's go or, into, kind of like an unknown, where the, the,

01:15:12:07 - 01:15:15:07
Speaker 2
Likelihood of success is, like, not determined.

01:15:15:07 - 01:15:17:27
Speaker 1
You know, and,

01:15:18:00 - 01:15:25:11
Speaker 2
I really like that kind of process of trying to kind of like, fulfill, a dream.

01:15:25:14 - 01:15:27:06
Speaker 1
And, I.

01:15:27:06 - 01:15:31:22
Speaker 2
Think first doing, doing new routes is, is, is a great way to.

01:15:31:24 - 01:15:33:28
Speaker 1
To try to do that.

01:15:34:10 - 01:15:50:23
Speaker 1
So when you're choosing your objectives, like, what process are you going through? What? Like what calls to you? How do you find yourself like. All right, this is the one that we're doing. Is it random? Like, is it planned? How's that process? Like.

01:15:51:27 - 01:15:56:18
Speaker 1
Man, I wish I knew I would probably do it more.

01:15:56:18 - 01:15:59:17
Speaker 1
Sounds like it's kind of like a spur of the moment inspiration.

01:15:59:17 - 01:16:08:15
Speaker 1
A little bit, yeah. I mean, I think, like, you're, I mean, you know, it's interesting. Now I feel like.

01:16:08:15 - 01:16:10:02
Speaker 2
We're in this era.

01:16:10:04 - 01:16:13:10
Speaker 1
Where, you know, very few.

01:16:13:16 - 01:16:32:15
Speaker 2
Ranges have yet to be discovered. You know, it's very rare that you walk into a place and you're like, this wall has no climbs on it, and you can just climb the weakness and we'll do a new route. You know, it's like those days are gone. And so first ascents now.

01:16:32:15 - 01:16:35:28
Speaker 1
Are more like, oh, like here, all of the.

01:16:35:28 - 01:16:41:25
Speaker 2
Lines that are already done and like, how can I, you know, squeeze something and that's.

01:16:41:25 - 01:16:42:10
Speaker 1
Not.

01:16:42:13 - 01:16:43:10
Speaker 2
That hasn't been.

01:16:43:10 - 01:16:50:03
Speaker 1
Climbed yet. And oh, excuse me, I think a lot.

01:16:50:03 - 01:17:03:01
Speaker 2
Of the routes I've done, I've kind of come from that where I was just like, oh, there's no line up this and there's like, I wonder if there's terrain that's climbable. And sure enough, most of the time there is, you know, and that's kind of.

01:17:03:01 - 01:17:05:17
Speaker 1
How a lot of the, the.

01:17:05:17 - 01:17:14:27
Speaker 2
New routes I've done have kind of started. It's just like, you know, you're kind of curious and you're like, I wonder if anyone's done this and gone.

01:17:15:01 - 01:17:15:20
Speaker 1
No one has.

01:17:15:21 - 01:17:20:11
Speaker 2
You know, like, oh, maybe we should go. Maybe this is an opportunity to try out this, like, new route.

01:17:20:11 - 01:17:21:16
Speaker 1
Thing, and.

01:17:21:19 - 01:17:23:18
Speaker 2
Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

01:17:23:18 - 01:17:24:17
Speaker 1
You know?

01:17:24:24 - 01:17:25:14
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:17:25:16 - 01:17:31:11
Speaker 1
What is it like to stand at the base of a wall that, you know, has never been climbed? Is there like, a

01:17:32:04 - 01:17:52:01
Speaker 1
Fuck, dude, I wish I knew, man. I've never done that. I've literally never stood. I've I've stood below one wall in. I stood below one kind of dinky wall in Patagonia that I don't.

01:17:52:01 - 01:17:52:21
Speaker 2
Think has been.

01:17:52:21 - 01:17:55:01
Speaker 1
Climbed. And we climbed it.

01:17:55:03 - 01:17:59:25
Speaker 2
And honestly, it was so small compared to its neighbors.

01:17:59:25 - 01:18:00:22
Speaker 1
That we.

01:18:00:22 - 01:18:05:24
Speaker 2
Didn't really think much of it. We were just like tired, exhausted. We had like one day we had like a little bit of light.

01:18:05:24 - 01:18:06:23
Speaker 1
Or sun.

01:18:06:23 - 01:18:10:26
Speaker 2
Left. So we were like, we should just try to climb this, you know?

01:18:10:28 - 01:18:13:03
Speaker 1
But I am a little.

01:18:13:03 - 01:18:18:08
Speaker 2
Jealous of the, you know, the generations before us that got to, you know, walk.

01:18:18:08 - 01:18:19:21
Speaker 1
Around and.

01:18:19:23 - 01:18:20:11
Speaker 2
Yes, I mean, it.

01:18:20:13 - 01:18:22:14
Speaker 1
Be like, oh, like, look at this.

01:18:22:14 - 01:18:23:09
Speaker 2
Wall. Like, let's.

01:18:23:09 - 01:18:33:01
Speaker 1
Go, let's go climb up that, you know, like, I can't even fucking imagine what it would be like to.

01:18:33:04 - 01:18:36:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. I'm sure. Maybe. Yeah. See what baby girl.

01:18:36:16 - 01:18:37:01
Speaker 2
Thinks about.

01:18:37:01 - 01:18:46:11
Speaker 1
That. But yeah.

01:18:46:13 - 01:18:52:01
Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah.

01:19:10:12 - 01:19:11:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.

01:19:11:13 - 01:19:12:24
Speaker 1
You know, it's so gnarly

01:19:12:24 - 01:19:13:15
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:19:13:15 - 01:19:17:24
Speaker 1
you got to go to get to these places that we're talking about of just like unclaimed walls.

01:19:17:27 - 01:19:24:15
Speaker 1
For sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I think in a way, like.

01:19:24:17 - 01:19:29:19
Speaker 2
Some of the stuff that's more accessible now, like, was like that initially.

01:19:29:21 - 01:19:34:01
Speaker 1
Back in the day, but, Yeah, you know, maybe.

01:19:34:01 - 01:19:43:24
Speaker 2
Maybe you just planted the seed for me to go there. I don't know, but, yeah, that's definitely a big adventure. It's tough when you're, like, kind of paying out of pocket.

01:19:43:24 - 01:19:44:16
Speaker 1
For.

01:19:44:18 - 01:19:46:00
Speaker 2
Big ass trips like that.

01:19:46:00 - 01:19:53:03
Speaker 1
You know? Yeah. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Working on that one.

01:19:53:03 - 01:20:01:23
Speaker 1
So let's talk about the Colorado route on Fitzroy. This was a ground up on site, and apparently it was your first big F.A..

01:20:02:04 - 01:20:11:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:11:21 - 01:20:13:14
Speaker 1
I think it was my first.

01:20:13:16 - 01:20:16:20
Speaker 2
First ascent. There was more than, like, two pitches.

01:20:16:24 - 01:20:18:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

01:20:18:18 - 01:20:30:00
Speaker 1
So yeah. So I mean, just like, tell me the story, man. Like, you know, walk me through the process and kind of what that was like, you know, getting to the base pitch by pitch, like, how did you feel? What was the what was the climb like?

01:20:30:03 - 01:20:35:02
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, to be perfectly honest, I think I blew all of my luck on.

01:20:35:02 - 01:20:38:12
Speaker 2
My first merit.

01:20:38:14 - 01:20:38:23
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:20:38:23 - 01:20:43:20
Speaker 2
I don't think I've gotten as lucky since then, and I'm not sure if I ever. Well, to.

01:20:43:20 - 01:20:47:14
Speaker 1
Be honest, I just.

01:20:47:17 - 01:20:47:29
Speaker 2
It was.

01:20:47:29 - 01:20:50:04
Speaker 1
My second.

01:20:50:04 - 01:20:53:04
Speaker 2
Season going down to Patagonia, and it was.

01:20:53:04 - 01:20:54:28
Speaker 1
You know.

01:20:55:01 - 01:20:56:02
Speaker 2
Super psyched.

01:20:56:02 - 01:20:56:16
Speaker 1
And.

01:20:56:21 - 01:20:57:25
Speaker 2
Optimistic.

01:20:57:25 - 01:21:07:10
Speaker 1
And, I had just been kind of like, poring over the guidebook on the plane ride down and just.

01:21:07:10 - 01:21:14:13
Speaker 2
Like I was saying, you know, I was just like, looking at the red lines and being like, you know, kind of daydreaming, like, oh, is there something in between.

01:21:14:13 - 01:21:17:14
Speaker 1
There? And, I had a.

01:21:17:14 - 01:21:18:29
Speaker 2
Couple of places.

01:21:18:29 - 01:21:21:29
Speaker 1
That I had,

01:21:22:02 - 01:21:24:24
Speaker 2
Kind of felt like that there might be terrain to.

01:21:25:01 - 01:21:30:08
Speaker 1
To climb and, excuse me. We were we were, we had a.

01:21:30:08 - 01:21:31:11
Speaker 2
Pretty good season.

01:21:31:11 - 01:21:34:02
Speaker 1
There. And this.

01:21:34:02 - 01:21:37:27
Speaker 2
Was on the Argentinian side of Patagonia, and Shelton.

01:21:37:27 - 01:21:42:28
Speaker 1
And, and, yeah, just got a really.

01:21:42:28 - 01:21:45:18
Speaker 2
Good, weather window to,

01:21:45:20 - 01:21:49:08
Speaker 1
To try something big. And, the.

01:21:49:08 - 01:21:50:19
Speaker 2
People that I was with, we.

01:21:50:19 - 01:21:52:08
Speaker 1
Were, managed.

01:21:52:08 - 01:21:57:02
Speaker 2
To kind of convince them to, to, to try to do a new.

01:21:57:02 - 01:22:05:20
Speaker 1
Route, which, you know, I think that, a lot of people don't necessarily want to.

01:22:05:20 - 01:22:22:16
Speaker 2
Do that because they don't want to waste, like, really good weather to potentially fail on something. And so I think luckily, just all being like minded and optimistic, we just kind of like, decided to to, go for.

01:22:23:18 - 01:22:24:08
Speaker 2
This route.

01:22:24:08 - 01:22:27:05
Speaker 1
On.

01:22:27:07 - 01:22:36:21
Speaker 2
The South face, Fitzroy, which is the smallest face? It's kind of like floating.

01:22:36:24 - 01:22:39:24
Speaker 1
On, on a shoulder of the.

01:22:39:24 - 01:22:48:03
Speaker 2
Of the kind of the range. And it's just to the right of the California route.

01:22:48:03 - 01:22:50:00
Speaker 2
And we just kind of like, through.

01:22:50:00 - 01:22:51:00
Speaker 1
Our,

01:22:51:03 - 01:22:53:11
Speaker 2
Through ourselves at this,

01:22:53:13 - 01:22:59:18
Speaker 1
Pretty good looking panel of rock. And, what it ended up being.

01:22:59:18 - 01:23:01:10
Speaker 2
Was.

01:23:01:13 - 01:23:08:08
Speaker 1
Fucking laser beams, man. I could not believe how splitter.

01:23:08:10 - 01:23:18:16
Speaker 2
And this was back when I was just, like, super into crack climbing, as much like a crack junkie. I just tried to fucking jam anything. Couldn't cramp up, like, worth a damn.

01:23:18:16 - 01:23:20:00
Speaker 1
And.

01:23:20:02 - 01:23:22:16
Speaker 2
And this is, like.

01:23:22:19 - 01:23:23:21
Speaker 1
Maybe the.

01:23:23:21 - 01:23:25:25
Speaker 2
Most splitter, most incredible route.

01:23:25:25 - 01:23:35:03
Speaker 1
I've ever climbed. And, I'm not even really exaggerating. And, the thing just.

01:23:35:03 - 01:23:37:29
Speaker 2
Unraveled in our laps. Did. I could not I could.

01:23:37:29 - 01:23:41:00
Speaker 1
Not believe it. And I just we just went.

01:23:41:02 - 01:23:44:04
Speaker 2
At it with such like.

01:23:44:07 - 01:23:44:17
Speaker 1
You know.

01:23:44:17 - 01:23:53:21
Speaker 2
Youthful exuberance and optimism. And we got so lucky, like, there was a, there was a 16 meter.

01:23:53:25 - 01:23:57:26
Speaker 1
Face traverse in the middle of it. And.

01:23:57:26 - 01:23:58:12
Speaker 2
I was like.

01:23:58:12 - 01:24:06:19
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. Like, I'll just try it. I can't believe it. And it ended up being like 510 and all gear protected.

01:24:06:19 - 01:24:13:16
Speaker 2
And it was like, not even that scary. And, and just connected these, these, like, splitter crack systems.

01:24:13:16 - 01:24:17:11
Speaker 1
And man, I've gotten stumped by, like, you know.

01:24:17:13 - 01:24:21:09
Speaker 2
Six foot sections of rock since then.

01:24:21:12 - 01:24:23:07
Speaker 1
And it, you know, we got.

01:24:23:09 - 01:24:24:06
Speaker 2
We got so.

01:24:24:06 - 01:24:29:29
Speaker 1
Lucky with, that I just thought that that's how it was and that, you.

01:24:29:29 - 01:24:32:09
Speaker 2
Know, you could just throw yourself at.

01:24:32:09 - 01:24:33:19
Speaker 1
Something and.

01:24:33:22 - 01:24:34:23
Speaker 2
You'll just unravel.

01:24:34:23 - 01:24:45:22
Speaker 1
In your lap and. Yeah, it's it's not like that. Yeah.

01:24:45:24 - 01:24:48:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's all gear. No bolts.

01:24:48:00 - 01:24:48:07
Speaker 2
No.

01:24:48:07 - 01:24:54:08
Speaker 1
Pins, nothing, man. We rappelled the,

01:24:54:10 - 01:24:56:22
Speaker 2
It's called the Franco Argentine. It's kind of the.

01:24:56:22 - 01:24:58:09
Speaker 1
Common commonly.

01:24:58:09 - 01:25:03:08
Speaker 2
Used repo for the south side of. That's right. Yeah, it's an equipped repo.

01:25:03:10 - 01:25:10:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

01:25:10:21 - 01:25:18:10
Speaker 1
So starting from the shoulder to where, it meets up with.

01:25:18:13 - 01:25:25:02
Speaker 2
Other established routes. Fitzroy, it's probably just about 13 independent pitches.

01:25:25:04 - 01:25:29:01
Speaker 1
So not that much. But,

01:25:29:03 - 01:25:30:13
Speaker 2
But it goes through.

01:25:30:15 - 01:25:34:18
Speaker 1
Really, really clean panel of rock.

01:25:34:18 - 01:25:36:21
Speaker 2
Really beautiful panel of rock.

01:25:36:24 - 01:25:43:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

01:25:43:10 - 01:25:50:00
Speaker 1
No, I don't think it's on on project. It's in it's in the guidebook. The guidebook.

01:25:50:00 - 01:25:55:05
Speaker 2
I think is a better resource for, for, short term.

01:25:55:07 - 01:25:59:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, you have to do, like, mix climbing.

01:25:59:14 - 01:26:00:05
Speaker 2
To get up to.

01:26:00:05 - 01:26:01:06
Speaker 1
It and.

01:26:01:09 - 01:26:11:12
Speaker 2
Makes climbing to reach a summit. So you definitely wanted, like, it's not just like a splitter rock climb. It's definitely like that. That portion of it is like, floating in.

01:26:11:12 - 01:26:14:21
Speaker 1
A on a very big mountain.

01:26:14:23 - 01:26:17:01
Speaker 2
You know, in Fitzroy.

01:26:17:03 - 01:26:19:00
Speaker 1
So, but but,

01:26:19:03 - 01:26:20:12
Speaker 2
Do definitely recommend.

01:26:20:12 - 01:26:32:05
Speaker 1
It. Yeah. Yeah.

01:26:32:08 - 01:26:32:28
Speaker 2
Absolutely.

01:26:33:01 - 01:26:37:04
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:26:37:06 - 01:26:39:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, it was cool to get, like, a.

01:26:39:14 - 01:26:40:21
Speaker 1
Win like that and.

01:26:40:23 - 01:26:42:13
Speaker 2
Have such a beautiful route.

01:26:42:24 - 01:26:43:14
Speaker 2
Just.

01:26:43:16 - 01:26:43:29
Speaker 1
Following.

01:26:43:29 - 01:26:44:17
Speaker 2
Our laps.

01:26:44:17 - 01:26:45:18
Speaker 1
But,

01:26:45:21 - 01:26:50:20
Speaker 2
But, yeah, I also recognize the luck associated with with that versus on,

01:26:51:03 - 01:27:14:19
Speaker 1
Well, that's good, though I think that also speaks to your guys's skills as climbers, right? It's like, yeah, sure. You had a great weather window, but you guys are like, you just kind of alluded to. It's like you guys are climbing Fitzroy. It's, you know, not something to shake a stick. And it's a big, a big ordeal and to, to to efficiently and smoothly set up on a first try and everything goes smoothly is like, you know, yes, there's a bit of luck, but that's also you guys like had things locked in and you guys knew what you're doing.

01:27:14:19 - 01:27:16:22
Speaker 1
So it's cool. It's really cool that you guys were able to pull

01:27:17:12 - 01:27:19:26
Speaker 2
Thanks, man. Yeah, it was a gift. It was a real gift.

01:27:19:29 - 01:27:20:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:27:21:08 - 01:27:35:04
Speaker 1
And so you you left Patagonia and then, you know, I guess the next one on the list here is your your F.A. and Zion for, for humdinger. So, I guess lead us from, you know, in your mindset at the time, lead us from, from one to the other.

01:27:37:12 - 01:27:41:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, I, I had really,

01:27:41:04 - 01:27:42:05
Speaker 2
So this is still in.

01:27:42:05 - 01:27:42:19
Speaker 1
My.

01:27:42:22 - 01:27:45:06
Speaker 2
Splitter craze. That was really.

01:27:45:06 - 01:27:47:21
Speaker 1
Into,

01:27:47:23 - 01:27:56:21
Speaker 2
Climb and splitters and, so naturally, that drew me to Moonlight Buttress and in Zion and.

01:27:56:24 - 01:27:57:09
Speaker 1
I.

01:27:57:12 - 01:28:05:03
Speaker 2
I really fell in love with Zion for a period. I just have a it's just such a beautiful canyon.

01:28:05:06 - 01:28:07:08
Speaker 1
And,

01:28:07:11 - 01:28:07:25
Speaker 2
So I.

01:28:07:25 - 01:28:15:02
Speaker 1
I climbed there quite a bit, and then, eventually a friend of mine.

01:28:15:05 - 01:28:16:01
Speaker 2
Who actually met in.

01:28:16:01 - 01:28:22:07
Speaker 1
Patagonia, he, he was a guide, and,

01:28:22:10 - 01:28:24:03
Speaker 2
He was a guide in Zion.

01:28:24:03 - 01:28:24:20
Speaker 1
And,

01:28:24:25 - 01:28:25:25
Speaker 2
He was like, hey, I've.

01:28:25:25 - 01:28:27:18
Speaker 1
Been working on this.

01:28:27:21 - 01:28:30:10
Speaker 2
First ascent.

01:28:30:13 - 01:28:31:01
Speaker 1
But it.

01:28:31:01 - 01:28:40:29
Speaker 2
Hasn't been freed yet. We need to kind of, put it together. I was wondering if you want to come do that with me. And so over two days, actually, it took us two tries.

01:28:42:00 - 01:28:43:04
Speaker 2
The first time we tried to do.

01:28:43:04 - 01:28:48:21
Speaker 1
It in a day, and then we had to come back, and then we.

01:28:48:24 - 01:28:55:04
Speaker 2
We did it over a two day push. And we were able to, to free this route.

01:28:55:06 - 01:28:57:26
Speaker 1
And, it was.

01:28:58:00 - 01:28:59:00
Speaker 2
Probably like 12.

01:28:59:00 - 01:29:06:09
Speaker 1
Plus, quite, quite splitter. A lot of, it is.

01:29:06:09 - 01:29:07:28
Speaker 2
Characterized by a decent amount.

01:29:07:28 - 01:29:09:18
Speaker 1
Of off with climbing, but.

01:29:09:18 - 01:29:11:11
Speaker 2
Like really splitter.

01:29:11:11 - 01:29:12:12
Speaker 1
Off with climbing.

01:29:12:12 - 01:29:13:15
Speaker 2
So, like.

01:29:13:17 - 01:29:16:09
Speaker 1
Kind of enjoyable.

01:29:16:12 - 01:29:21:08
Speaker 2
Like, I don't know if you've, like, done those routes on the creek like big. I think it's big.

01:29:21:08 - 01:29:21:23
Speaker 1
Boy or.

01:29:21:23 - 01:29:22:23
Speaker 2
Fat boy or something.

01:29:22:23 - 01:29:23:26
Speaker 1
Like,

01:29:23:28 - 01:29:25:23
Speaker 2
I don't know, there's just, like, splitter off.

01:29:25:26 - 01:29:30:14
Speaker 1
It's,

01:29:30:16 - 01:29:34:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Everything from, like, fours.

01:29:34:12 - 01:29:39:15
Speaker 2
To kind of kind of like rattly sixes.

01:29:39:17 - 01:29:40:24
Speaker 1
And,

01:29:40:26 - 01:29:43:00
Speaker 2
And, yeah, there's a lot of that on.

01:29:43:00 - 01:29:49:03
Speaker 1
It, but like, but like good, you know, like, I, I'll complain.

01:29:49:03 - 01:29:51:25
Speaker 2
About off with two, but like, this is actually like.

01:29:51:25 - 01:29:54:14
Speaker 1
Good some, some good pitches on a.

01:29:54:14 - 01:29:59:06
Speaker 1
off with climber? There's just, like, walk in the six for 60m, or you, like, bring in

01:30:00:15 - 01:30:02:01
Speaker 1
Maybe not 60m.

01:30:02:01 - 01:30:04:15
Speaker 2
Like maybe in a pitch like that I would bring like two.

01:30:04:15 - 01:30:05:21
Speaker 1
But yeah, I mean I.

01:30:05:23 - 01:30:07:25
Speaker 2
Was like pretty, pretty psyched on.

01:30:08:00 - 01:30:08:10
Speaker 1
Crack.

01:30:08:10 - 01:30:11:22
Speaker 2
Climbing then, and so, felt pretty like, pretty comfortable.

01:30:11:22 - 01:30:13:03
Speaker 1
With that.

01:30:13:05 - 01:30:16:02
Speaker 2
I mean, it's like a top rope, you know?

01:30:16:04 - 01:30:39:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, dude, you don't want to be taking a big ripper on a on off with, man. You get fucked up, you know? Yeah. I mean, like, man, a roof and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. And.

01:30:39:10 - 01:30:47:11
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:30:47:13 - 01:30:54:29
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Looking at man. Looking at. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah yeah.

01:31:01:05 - 01:31:08:18
Speaker 1
Now there's a, there's actually a pretty good ledge. About halfway up.

01:31:08:20 - 01:31:11:15
Speaker 2
That you can sleep on. And it is like.

01:31:11:18 - 01:31:16:09
Speaker 1
An incredible bivvy man. You have like, a really you have a.

01:31:16:09 - 01:31:17:13
Speaker 2
Really nice view of.

01:31:17:26 - 01:31:20:26
Speaker 2
I believe it's the core of the patriarchs or something like.

01:31:20:26 - 01:31:21:27
Speaker 1
That.

01:31:21:29 - 01:31:29:19
Speaker 2
Just like beautiful Zion, you know, so it was a real treat to kind of, like, get to get to,

01:31:29:21 - 01:31:33:14
Speaker 1
Look at that. And, yeah, we did that.

01:31:33:14 - 01:31:51:18
Speaker 2
Over two days and the cracks climbing like every. I think the hardest off with climbing is about because it's about 12 minus. And then the crux climbing is like, kind of like crack. Crack, face kind of climbing stuff.

01:31:51:21 - 01:31:55:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it hasn't been repeated.

01:31:55:20 - 01:31:56:29
Speaker 2
It's kind of like a go.

01:31:57:01 - 01:32:05:27
Speaker 1
Maybe that's where you got Ghost Land from. Yeah, yeah. That's it. There we go. So I'm the the guy that I did it with.

01:32:05:27 - 01:32:16:10
Speaker 2
He was kind of kind of protective of that zone. He wanted to like, do more routes. And we actually try to do some more. That ended up being kind of didn't go,

01:32:16:12 - 01:32:17:28
Speaker 1
And,

01:32:18:00 - 01:32:27:14
Speaker 2
So we just kind of kept it this secret for so long and, you know, that's like fucking like, I don't know, almost ten years ago now. And it's like.

01:32:27:16 - 01:32:28:23
Speaker 1
Well, we haven't put it on a mountain.

01:32:28:23 - 01:32:31:27
Speaker 2
Project just because we were like kind of too lazy now. But like.

01:32:32:00 - 01:32:35:19
Speaker 1
I, I've given the turbo to a couple people like, you should go.

01:32:35:19 - 01:32:37:09
Speaker 2
Do this like it's a good route.

01:32:37:09 - 01:32:46:27
Speaker 1
But I think a lot of people get intimidated by the other athletes on it and they're like, oh, I don't want to.

01:32:47:00 - 01:32:49:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I feel.

01:32:49:22 - 01:32:50:16
Speaker 2
Like there's

01:32:50:22 - 01:32:53:19
Speaker 1
There's a whole, like, contingent of us.

01:32:53:19 - 01:33:02:03
Speaker 2
With climbers these days specialize in that stuff. You do have to do some face climbing, though, so it's.

01:33:02:05 - 01:33:09:00
Speaker 1
You know, there's that.

01:33:09:03 - 01:33:14:29
Speaker 1
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah I know, yeah.

01:33:16:02 - 01:33:29:08
Speaker 1
Well. Nice man. Like, was there any, like, you know, was this just another situation where I was just like, you know, another another, tick on the list. Another for another great experience with not a lot of, like, you know, lessons to pull from or formative experiences.

01:33:30:09 - 01:33:31:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, I think I.

01:33:31:09 - 01:33:32:11
Speaker 2
Really like higher.

01:33:32:11 - 01:33:33:18
Speaker 1
Learning or anything.

01:33:33:18 - 01:33:36:25
Speaker 2
I think I was like, proud to get it done.

01:33:36:27 - 01:33:38:18
Speaker 1
I had to, I had to fight a.

01:33:38:18 - 01:33:43:06
Speaker 2
Little bit harder to to send the cracks is.

01:33:43:08 - 01:33:47:05
Speaker 1
The, the crux pitch.

01:33:47:05 - 01:33:48:25
Speaker 2
Is like the second.

01:33:48:25 - 01:33:51:23
Speaker 1
To last pitch. So it felt.

01:33:51:23 - 01:33:55:25
Speaker 2
Like a little committing to, to, like, kind of like put that together.

01:33:55:25 - 01:33:57:13
Speaker 1
And and we weren't.

01:33:57:13 - 01:33:59:00
Speaker 2
Really sure that it would go.

01:33:59:00 - 01:33:59:28
Speaker 1
And it.

01:33:59:28 - 01:34:01:09
Speaker 2
Kind of like felt like.

01:34:01:09 - 01:34:02:20
Speaker 1
The limit of my.

01:34:02:22 - 01:34:07:05
Speaker 2
Ability at the time. So, it was definitely like kind.

01:34:07:05 - 01:34:07:25
Speaker 1
Of a.

01:34:07:28 - 01:34:19:09
Speaker 2
Dramatic finish to, to our, to our route. But it was cool to, to be able to like, put it together some feet kind of like crumbled under me while I was doing it. So hopefully I don't think it's still goes, but.

01:34:19:09 - 01:34:32:04
Speaker 1
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's cool. But yeah.

01:34:32:07 - 01:34:39:20
Speaker 1
I know, I know, if it's not my, my name change, but but yeah, reach.

01:34:39:20 - 01:34:44:00
Speaker 2
Reach out to me and I'll give you a tote, though. I'm playing the right direction.

01:34:44:02 - 01:34:53:11
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:34:53:13 - 01:34:58:24
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:34:58:27 - 01:35:03:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. Dude. Yeah. Yeah.

01:35:03:04 - 01:35:06:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's interesting. It's kind of like.

01:35:06:24 - 01:35:10:18
Speaker 1
I, my buddy that I went down there with.

01:35:10:18 - 01:35:22:01
Speaker 2
And I joke that this is like, the one of the grandest failures of our lives. And I feel like this, this trip was, learned. I mean, I learned so much.

01:35:22:01 - 01:35:23:10
Speaker 1
From from.

01:35:23:12 - 01:35:24:11
Speaker 2
Just getting so beat.

01:35:24:11 - 01:35:32:12
Speaker 1
Down. But basically, I, I, yeah, I.

01:35:32:13 - 01:36:00:10
Speaker 2
Guess I was, I had worked myself up into this mindset that. Yeah, if I, if I just like, put myself in front of these things and just tried them that I could, that I could put together these big dreams and and so for whatever reason, we decided to go to this place called the French Valley and Tourist Alpine Air National Park and Chile.

01:36:00:12 - 01:36:03:28
Speaker 1
And, tried to.

01:36:04:01 - 01:36:09:20
Speaker 2
Excuse me, excuse me with the goal of trying to do new routes on.

01:36:09:23 - 01:36:15:12
Speaker 1
A couple of big peaks there. Namely like,

01:36:15:15 - 01:36:17:18
Speaker 2
This one called Cerro Cottagecore.

01:36:17:18 - 01:36:18:02
Speaker 1
And.

01:36:18:02 - 01:36:22:15
Speaker 2
Another called, Sierra Cota to 3000 or, it's got a.

01:36:22:15 - 01:36:29:18
Speaker 1
Weird name. And, yeah, I mean, I didn't know anything about the area, and.

01:36:29:18 - 01:36:33:10
Speaker 2
I was like, okay, you know, it's roughly the same.

01:36:33:13 - 01:36:34:09
Speaker 1
Latitude.

01:36:34:09 - 01:36:36:02
Speaker 2
As, short ten.

01:36:36:02 - 01:36:36:07
Speaker 1
On.

01:36:36:07 - 01:36:39:05
Speaker 2
The Argentinean side.

01:36:39:07 - 01:36:41:02
Speaker 1
And I'm familiar with climbing there.

01:36:41:02 - 01:36:41:28
Speaker 2
And I kind.

01:36:41:28 - 01:36:43:29
Speaker 1
Of got, a pretty dialed.

01:36:43:29 - 01:36:45:11
Speaker 2
Kit for, like, how to climb.

01:36:45:11 - 01:36:46:14
Speaker 1
There.

01:36:46:16 - 01:36:57:23
Speaker 2
And so I, I basically was just like, oh, yeah, we can just use what are kind of like, alpine style approach to climbing in this.

01:36:57:25 - 01:37:01:13
Speaker 1
In this area. And,

01:37:01:15 - 01:37:08:02
Speaker 2
You know, we went down there with a pretty light kit, pretty light sleeping bags and.

01:37:08:04 - 01:37:23:18
Speaker 1
You know, we did bring a porta ledge. But we did not. We were not really prepared. Both. Like,

01:37:23:20 - 01:37:24:18
Speaker 2
Like apparel.

01:37:24:18 - 01:37:25:29
Speaker 1
And caloric.

01:37:26:01 - 01:37:27:14
Speaker 2
Wise for.

01:37:27:14 - 01:37:28:27
Speaker 1
The.

01:37:29:00 - 01:37:34:08
Speaker 2
The, like, intensity of the tourist alpine massive.

01:37:34:11 - 01:37:37:00
Speaker 1
And, the weather.

01:37:37:03 - 01:37:40:24
Speaker 2
That we experienced there was.

01:37:40:27 - 01:37:41:16
Speaker 1
So much.

01:37:41:16 - 01:37:42:24
Speaker 2
Worse, man. It was.

01:37:42:24 - 01:37:44:22
Speaker 1
Really, really the.

01:37:44:25 - 01:37:50:18
Speaker 2
Some of the craziest storms I've ever sat through. In the structure of.

01:37:50:18 - 01:37:52:01
Speaker 1
Climbing in.

01:37:52:03 - 01:37:55:02
Speaker 2
That park is, is.

01:37:55:04 - 01:37:55:25
Speaker 1
Is different.

01:37:55:26 - 01:37:58:17
Speaker 2
Than short ten, you know, short tents, kind of like.

01:37:58:20 - 01:38:01:13
Speaker 1
Going in the way of, like Mont Blanc, kind of.

01:38:01:19 - 01:38:07:06
Speaker 2
Shamone vibes where it's like town is and amenities are kind of like.

01:38:07:08 - 01:38:09:18
Speaker 1
A long walk from the climbing.

01:38:09:18 - 01:38:18:18
Speaker 2
And the climbing is very can be very serious. But, the approach is really different. And we kind of went.

01:38:18:20 - 01:38:19:02
Speaker 1
Without.

01:38:19:02 - 01:38:30:20
Speaker 2
Knowing. We just went to Chile with this kind of mindset and quickly realized that that wasn't going to work, that we had to kind of like get into the park, especially as a bunch of gringos. It's like.

01:38:30:23 - 01:38:31:22
Speaker 1
The way the permitting.

01:38:31:22 - 01:38:34:28
Speaker 2
And stuff works. There is,

01:38:35:00 - 01:38:35:24
Speaker 1
You kind of need to.

01:38:35:24 - 01:38:37:16
Speaker 2
Treat things like a, like a real.

01:38:37:16 - 01:38:39:11
Speaker 1
Expedition. And.

01:38:39:11 - 01:38:41:10
Speaker 2
So we had.

01:38:41:12 - 01:38:44:13
Speaker 1
You know, like the, Chilean government.

01:38:44:13 - 01:38:49:16
Speaker 2
Like, looks at us, looks at our application and stuff. They're like, are you guys fucking serious? Like, you guys are fucking.

01:38:49:16 - 01:39:00:24
Speaker 1
Joke, you know? So, yeah. So me, like, I hiked all the shit into the, French Valley and lived in a cave for a month. And.

01:39:00:24 - 01:39:06:10
Speaker 2
You know, just kind of periodically kept trying to,

01:39:06:13 - 01:39:11:25
Speaker 1
Trying to do, work on a near route,

01:39:11:27 - 01:39:15:20
Speaker 2
And, just kind of like,

01:39:15:23 - 01:39:16:12
Speaker 1
Like one thing.

01:39:16:12 - 01:39:19:14
Speaker 2
After another kind of kept beating us down.

01:39:19:16 - 01:39:33:08
Speaker 1
You know, we didn't even bring we didn't even bring, like, much iron. We didn't. I don't even know if we brought any bolts. Yeah, we just kind of were like, oh, yeah.

01:39:33:12 - 01:39:37:06
Speaker 2
Just like the Colorado River splitter. They're just gonna show themselves to me.

01:39:37:06 - 01:39:44:08
Speaker 1
And then do. We would have these, like, like harrowing leads. Just some of the most, like.

01:39:44:09 - 01:39:45:14
Speaker 2
Intense leads I've.

01:39:45:14 - 01:39:48:06
Speaker 1
Ever done. And, you know, you'd, like, pull.

01:39:48:06 - 01:39:49:25
Speaker 2
On this ledge, just, like, fully.

01:39:49:25 - 01:39:56:00
Speaker 1
Committed. And like, it'd be like, expecting, like.

01:39:56:01 - 01:39:57:27
Speaker 2
You know, to get to, like, a hand crack.

01:39:57:27 - 01:40:02:05
Speaker 1
In a corner. And it would be like, sealed shot, you know.

01:40:02:05 - 01:40:05:10
Speaker 2
Like knife blade, seam. And you're like.

01:40:05:10 - 01:40:09:00
Speaker 1
Fuck, you know? And, I would.

01:40:09:00 - 01:40:10:15
Speaker 2
Either have to reverse the.

01:40:10:15 - 01:40:14:11
Speaker 1
Pitch or like, you know, pound.

01:40:14:11 - 01:40:16:21
Speaker 2
In, like some of the very few knife plays we.

01:40:16:21 - 01:40:18:10
Speaker 1
Had and lower and.

01:40:18:15 - 01:40:23:02
Speaker 2
Lower off of those, you know, and it just became like really clear that we just weren't equipped.

01:40:23:02 - 01:40:29:27
Speaker 1
To, to climb there. And, but we tried I mean, we.

01:40:29:27 - 01:40:30:10
Speaker 2
Tried.

01:40:30:10 - 01:40:34:03
Speaker 1
Really hard, and,

01:40:34:05 - 01:40:38:18
Speaker 2
Froze our asses off. Starved.

01:40:38:20 - 01:40:45:06
Speaker 1
And, you know, I think in, in the month that we were there, we had maybe.

01:40:45:08 - 01:40:48:27
Speaker 2
Four days where we saw the sign.

01:40:49:00 - 01:40:49:10
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:40:49:10 - 01:40:50:04
Speaker 2
We had, like, a solar.

01:40:50:04 - 01:40:55:06
Speaker 1
Panel, like, can you charge our shit with it?

01:40:55:09 - 01:40:57:15
Speaker 2
And, yeah. So in.

01:40:57:15 - 01:40:58:29
Speaker 1
In.

01:40:59:01 - 01:41:00:25
Speaker 2
In those four days, we.

01:41:01:00 - 01:41:07:06
Speaker 1
We tried to do, we actually tried to repeat one of the,

01:41:07:08 - 01:41:08:09
Speaker 2
Free routes.

01:41:08:09 - 01:41:09:14
Speaker 1
On, one.

01:41:09:14 - 01:41:16:13
Speaker 2
Of those mountains. And, I actually had a really intimidating fall where, like, cut my rope and.

01:41:16:15 - 01:41:16:19
Speaker 1
It.

01:41:16:19 - 01:41:19:24
Speaker 2
Just scared the shit out of me. And so we bailed off.

01:41:19:24 - 01:41:29:02
Speaker 1
Of that, I mean, I didn't count, did I? But enough.

01:41:29:02 - 01:41:30:11
Speaker 2
To just, like, scare.

01:41:30:11 - 01:41:35:11
Speaker 1
Me, you know? Yeah. I mean, like.

01:41:35:11 - 01:41:35:18
Speaker 2
Really.

01:41:35:18 - 01:41:42:04
Speaker 1
Sobering. And so we backed off of that and were like, you know, we were doing.

01:41:42:04 - 01:41:50:02
Speaker 2
It super old school or just like, well, just the sun is out or the stars are still out. Like, maybe we should try to keep climbing.

01:41:50:02 - 01:41:50:23
Speaker 1
And and that.

01:41:50:23 - 01:41:57:00
Speaker 2
Was how we ended up putting up some of these like kind of slightly more dinky, near routes.

01:41:57:06 - 01:41:58:24
Speaker 1
Like in the, you know.

01:41:58:24 - 01:42:01:00
Speaker 2
Far back in this area, we just, like, happened.

01:42:01:00 - 01:42:02:12
Speaker 1
To be there and we were like.

01:42:02:14 - 01:42:06:22
Speaker 2
Well, at least we can attack like this, this alpine style.

01:42:06:22 - 01:42:08:03
Speaker 1
And, and.

01:42:08:05 - 01:42:10:08
Speaker 2
And so we did that.

01:42:10:11 - 01:42:12:19
Speaker 1
And then, and yeah, I.

01:42:12:19 - 01:42:17:17
Speaker 2
Mean, we managed to do one more kind of like, on our way out, just out of, like, sheer.

01:42:17:17 - 01:42:22:07
Speaker 1
Willpower. Yeah, I did, I I've.

01:42:22:10 - 01:42:28:05
Speaker 2
That was like, the most techie slab I've ever climbed. Like, covered in slush, you know, just like, because we were like, we.

01:42:28:05 - 01:42:29:00
Speaker 1
Have to work.

01:42:29:00 - 01:42:31:13
Speaker 2
We have to do this, you know, like.

01:42:31:15 - 01:42:35:06
Speaker 1
You know, like we're so fucking bored and hungry and godlike.

01:42:35:09 - 01:42:37:00
Speaker 2
And, like, after this, we.

01:42:37:00 - 01:42:37:11
Speaker 1
Can go.

01:42:37:11 - 01:42:39:02
Speaker 2
Home, you know? So.

01:42:39:05 - 01:42:43:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Dude, we got.

01:42:43:12 - 01:42:45:02
Speaker 2
We got so beat down from that.

01:42:45:02 - 01:42:47:27
Speaker 1
I mean, we, I think we literally did.

01:42:47:29 - 01:43:01:02
Speaker 2
Starve a little bit, like my buddy and I both had, like, re feeding syndrome. Afterwards when we got back to town, like, we, we, we both got, like, super sick. It took us a long time to kind of, like, get back to to normal.

01:43:13:27 - 01:43:20:09
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean. I don't know, we were like, invested.

01:43:20:11 - 01:43:23:21
Speaker 2
We were just.

01:43:23:23 - 01:43:24:23
Speaker 1
No, I think we I.

01:43:24:23 - 01:43:25:26
Speaker 2
Mean, we were just like, we both.

01:43:25:26 - 01:43:34:17
Speaker 1
Wanted to. We both wanted, like to try, and to make the. And we were like, what the fuck are we going to do? You know, like.

01:43:34:20 - 01:43:41:02
Speaker 2
Change our flights and go home or. Yeah, just like sit at the hostel for another two weeks, like we didn't want to do that.

01:43:41:02 - 01:43:42:04
Speaker 1
I mean, it it.

01:43:42:06 - 01:43:44:29
Speaker 2
Just felt like.

01:43:45:01 - 01:43:48:21
Speaker 1
I mean, I think, like, had I been a little bit, have we been.

01:43:48:21 - 01:43:55:14
Speaker 2
A little bit more resourceful? We probably could have taken advantage of like, and I found this out, like.

01:43:55:21 - 01:44:00:08
Speaker 1
After we came out, you know, like, we earned a little.

01:44:00:08 - 01:44:02:22
Speaker 2
Bit of street cred amongst the.

01:44:02:25 - 01:44:03:15
Speaker 1
The, like.

01:44:03:20 - 01:44:06:25
Speaker 2
Locals and the guides there, and they were like, yeah, next time you.

01:44:06:25 - 01:44:10:28
Speaker 1
Come down, like, hit us up, we can kind of give you bit like, so you don't.

01:44:10:28 - 01:44:13:03
Speaker 2
Have to, like, suffer in a cave anymore.

01:44:14:00 - 01:44:14:17
Speaker 2
And I was like.

01:44:14:17 - 01:44:18:12
Speaker 1
Okay, I get it. Yeah. But yeah, I think.

01:44:18:12 - 01:44:20:19
Speaker 2
It was a particularly stubborn.

01:44:20:21 - 01:44:22:00
Speaker 1
Period of my life.

01:44:22:00 - 01:44:28:03
Speaker 2
And I suckered my buddy into it, too. And he's he's like, one of these, like, is like, I, Kevin.

01:44:28:03 - 01:44:29:08
Speaker 1
Sturmer.

01:44:29:11 - 01:44:31:24
Speaker 2
I mentioned earlier.

01:44:31:26 - 01:44:34:15
Speaker 1
Very, very,

01:44:34:17 - 01:44:37:23
Speaker 2
Stubborn, strongly willed human being.

01:44:37:25 - 01:44:46:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. So that combo, I guess. That are good. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we yeah.

01:44:46:22 - 01:44:48:10
Speaker 2
It's gotten us up some stuff too.

01:44:48:11 - 01:44:55:16
Speaker 1
You know.

01:44:55:19 - 01:45:08:07
Speaker 1
Both. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it just felt like. It just felt like every opportunity, every any, like, moment where the, like, the.

01:45:08:07 - 01:45:09:15
Speaker 2
Weather was so bad.

01:45:09:15 - 01:45:11:16
Speaker 1
Like any time, like it felt.

01:45:11:16 - 01:45:16:14
Speaker 2
Like you could just, like, walk and, like, do anything. You're like, oh, we may as well.

01:45:16:14 - 01:45:22:13
Speaker 1
Try to climb, you know? But then, we're.

01:45:22:13 - 01:45:24:23
Speaker 2
On east faces, like it.

01:45:24:23 - 01:45:28:10
Speaker 1
Would the, the change.

01:45:28:10 - 01:45:29:05
Speaker 2
Was like, really.

01:45:29:05 - 01:45:32:22
Speaker 1
Really abrupt. And I've thought about this.

01:45:32:22 - 01:45:42:22
Speaker 2
I think part of the reason why is because it's like one of the very first, like, real pieces of geography that these, like.

01:45:42:24 - 01:45:43:06
Speaker 1
Like.

01:45:43:06 - 01:45:46:04
Speaker 2
Really turbulent storms that are.

01:45:46:06 - 01:45:48:29
Speaker 1
Coming out of, like, Antarctica and the ocean there.

01:45:49:02 - 01:45:51:14
Speaker 2
It's like one of the first big pieces of geography.

01:45:51:14 - 01:45:57:11
Speaker 1
That they hit, in that in that area of the world.

01:45:57:11 - 01:45:58:24
Speaker 2
And so.

01:45:58:27 - 01:45:59:16
Speaker 1
The, the.

01:45:59:16 - 01:46:00:22
Speaker 2
Weather's just.

01:46:00:24 - 01:46:01:04
Speaker 1
Man.

01:46:01:05 - 01:46:02:09
Speaker 2
Is gnarly.

01:46:02:09 - 01:46:07:04
Speaker 1
Dude, I like.

01:46:07:06 - 01:46:16:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I have this memory of, like, yeah, I have this one particular memory.

01:46:16:05 - 01:46:16:29
Speaker 2
Where I was coming.

01:46:16:29 - 01:46:17:11
Speaker 1
Out of the.

01:46:17:11 - 01:46:18:21
Speaker 2
I like, stepped out of the.

01:46:18:21 - 01:46:21:10
Speaker 1
Cave and I looked at.

01:46:21:13 - 01:46:24:25
Speaker 2
These two, these two walls that we were had been trying to.

01:46:24:25 - 01:46:26:23
Speaker 1
Climb. And in.

01:46:26:23 - 01:46:30:21
Speaker 2
Between them was this, like swirling.

01:46:30:21 - 01:46:35:00
Speaker 1
Snow ball. There was it, dude. It was like one.

01:46:35:00 - 01:46:37:11
Speaker 2
Of the most terrifying things I've ever seen.

01:46:37:13 - 01:46:46:23
Speaker 1
It's like fucking. I was like, oh my God. Like, we're going to try to, like, survive on a port. Imagine that. Like in our, like.

01:46:46:23 - 01:46:48:03
Speaker 2
Shitty, like alpine.

01:46:48:03 - 01:46:52:08
Speaker 1
Style. Like, you know, and like a sleeping bag that didn't even fit me.

01:46:52:08 - 01:46:54:15
Speaker 2
Because it was like, oh, yeah, this is ultralight.

01:46:54:15 - 01:47:00:26
Speaker 1
You know, I'm. Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, we were really kind of.

01:47:00:26 - 01:47:05:15
Speaker 2
Faced with a lot of decisions on that trip where we're like, if we screw this up.

01:47:05:15 - 01:47:06:27
Speaker 1
Like we could, we could.

01:47:06:28 - 01:47:07:19
Speaker 2
Easily get.

01:47:07:19 - 01:47:08:26
Speaker 1
Killed. And I mean.

01:47:08:26 - 01:47:11:18
Speaker 2
We almost did, like, many times.

01:47:11:20 - 01:47:21:16
Speaker 1
And I think, you know, we could we could, you know, since then I kind of like, learned a lot of stuff and kind of got more confident with how.

01:47:21:16 - 01:47:23:12
Speaker 2
To be able to manage a trip like.

01:47:23:12 - 01:47:32:03
Speaker 1
That. But, but yeah, yeah, I think there were.

01:47:32:05 - 01:47:37:29
Speaker 1
I mean, rockfall was a big one.

01:47:38:01 - 01:47:59:05
Speaker 2
Oh, yes. All the time. All the time. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, feels like a firing range. I mean, that's that's the reality of climbing on those mountains. Is, they're falling apart, you know, and that's a lot of these, like, glaciated ranges. That's just the reality is they're they're they're falling apart.

01:48:06:16 - 01:48:08:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, I mean, it.

01:48:08:02 - 01:48:10:08
Speaker 2
Also just happens to be.

01:48:10:11 - 01:48:11:27
Speaker 1
In the.

01:48:11:29 - 01:48:17:02
Speaker 2
Terrain that is like the most inspiring ranges on Earth. You know, it's just the reality of.

01:48:17:02 - 01:48:20:06
Speaker 1
Where of the world we live in right now. You know.

01:48:20:06 - 01:48:50:15
Speaker 2
It's like these, these, you know, we're talking about, like, faces that are like 4000ft of vertical relief of like granite wall, you know, that's like really, inspiring to a lot of people. And it was inspiring to us. And so I think that's what draws a lot of people to these, to these places, is to try to, like, test themselves against against these, like really big, big walls.

01:48:50:18 - 01:48:56:21
Speaker 1
I mean, yeah, but nothing that, like, knocked me out or, Luckily. Yeah.

01:48:56:22 - 01:49:04:28
Speaker 2
Yeah. But, you know, it's like, it just it's just it literally sounds like it's like, you know, like shit, like, you know, buzzing by you all the time.

01:49:05:00 - 01:49:05:27
Speaker 1
And and.

01:49:05:27 - 01:49:07:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, like I said, I, I get my rope.

01:49:07:11 - 01:49:09:21
Speaker 1
Cut and the, the rock.

01:49:09:21 - 01:49:13:01
Speaker 2
There is,

01:49:13:03 - 01:49:14:21
Speaker 1
It's,

01:49:14:23 - 01:49:35:17
Speaker 2
It's really like, in terms of, like, geologic time. It's like really freshly fractured. So it's really sharp. It's really, really sharp rock. So you got to be like, really on point about managing, like, edges and, and stuff like that. It can you just, it just destroys your, your gear.

01:49:35:19 - 01:49:39:27
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah.

01:49:39:27 - 01:49:53:10
Speaker 1
been down there, and it's hard. Like, I hear stories about Tyler Kero being down there and, like, it seems like there's a lot of people had in Patagonia that are at least on social media. So that, like, the that experience at least is becoming more normalized. But,

01:49:54:27 - 01:49:58:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's very glam right now. A lot of people are are into it.

01:49:58:16 - 01:50:10:25
Speaker 2
I mean, I mean, dude, it's like anywhere you fucking point a camera, it's like amazing photo, you know? It's like, I think that's why people like ice climbing. Because it's like you just snap a photo and you're like, wow, that's amazing.

01:50:10:28 - 01:50:16:04
Speaker 1
And know, like.

01:50:16:06 - 01:50:19:01
Speaker 1
For sure. But you know, where,

01:50:19:03 - 01:50:23:08
Speaker 2
It's also like it's also when and what inspires us, right? I mean.

01:50:23:08 - 01:50:24:04
Speaker 1
Like.

01:50:24:06 - 01:50:27:05
Speaker 2
I saw Secretary to I was like, holy shit.

01:50:27:05 - 01:50:27:19
Speaker 1
Like, that.

01:50:27:19 - 01:50:33:08
Speaker 2
Is an amazing man. That is so inspiring. Like, it's a climber's mountain for sure, you know?

01:50:33:08 - 01:50:35:15
Speaker 1
And, it's the.

01:50:35:15 - 01:50:39:14
Speaker 2
It's definitely the stuff that attracts us to.

01:50:39:16 - 01:50:40:08
Speaker 1
To going.

01:50:40:09 - 01:50:43:02
Speaker 2
And trying these things, but.

01:50:43:04 - 01:50:45:27
Speaker 1
But yeah,

01:50:46:00 - 01:50:48:15
Speaker 2
There is, there is,

01:50:48:17 - 01:50:50:07
Speaker 1
An undeniable.

01:50:50:09 - 01:51:00:00
Speaker 2
Slightly more, kind of objective hazards associated with climbing in those areas. Yeah. For sure.

01:51:00:03 - 01:51:04:05
Speaker 1
It's just a reality. Yeah.

01:51:04:05 - 01:51:18:27
Speaker 1
your for your most recent one. Kind of the one that we started with in the very beginning, talking about, like climbing back in the wind River range. So I guess what was the precipice towards kind of switching to that area? Had you been there before?

01:51:19:00 - 01:51:21:09
Speaker 1
How did you stumble upon this, this,

01:51:24:11 - 01:51:35:16
Speaker 1
Well, I guess, I guess it kind of like. Well, I had been climbing a lot, and, the wind River.

01:51:35:16 - 01:51:39:15
Speaker 2
Range, it's not too far from us. It's about eight hours away.

01:51:41:01 - 01:51:53:16
Speaker 2
So it's kind of like a just a different version of the Rockies. And I'd always kind of been attracted to that. There's there's definitely really just beautiful, circles and peaks and.

01:51:54:08 - 01:51:55:12
Speaker 2
Walls out.

01:51:55:12 - 01:51:56:07
Speaker 1
There that,

01:51:56:09 - 01:51:58:15
Speaker 2
Are super inspiring. And so I.

01:51:58:16 - 01:52:02:10
Speaker 1
Had been kind of,

01:52:02:12 - 01:52:05:18
Speaker 2
Periodically visiting different areas in.

01:52:05:20 - 01:52:06:02
Speaker 1
That.

01:52:06:02 - 01:52:20:25
Speaker 2
Range for, excuse me for several years. And, just in the spirit of trying to see something new, decided to go out and check out the Monolith Circ.

01:52:20:27 - 01:52:21:19
Speaker 1
With the intent.

01:52:21:19 - 01:52:23:27
Speaker 2
Of, repeating a route that.

01:52:24:21 - 01:52:29:14
Speaker 2
Was fairly, recent had just been put up once, several years prior.

01:52:29:14 - 01:52:38:06
Speaker 1
And, I remember when we were out there, looking up at the wall and.

01:52:38:06 - 01:52:52:26
Speaker 2
Kind of being like, wow, there's, there's like, this is a huge wall. And there's not many routes on it, like, I feel like this is kind of like one of these rare opportunities where it's kind of open country.

01:52:52:29 - 01:52:57:11
Speaker 1
And, the winds are, a little bit.

01:52:57:14 - 01:53:01:14
Speaker 2
Deceptive at times in that respect because.

01:53:01:16 - 01:53:03:04
Speaker 1
A lot of really able.

01:53:03:04 - 01:53:06:15
Speaker 2
Bodied climbers have been climbing there for, for a long time.

01:53:06:15 - 01:53:09:07
Speaker 1
But, the,

01:53:09:09 - 01:53:27:15
Speaker 2
Spirit of that place is always kind of really to be to underreport and to. So you really kind of have to, like, do your research and, kind of like get in touch with the people that are familiar with the areas to, to to really get an idea.

01:53:27:15 - 01:53:32:04
Speaker 1
Of, what's been done there. And, and

01:53:32:07 - 01:53:35:15
Speaker 2
And so after doing a little bit more research, kind of figured out.

01:53:35:15 - 01:53:36:08
Speaker 1
That.

01:53:36:10 - 01:53:39:26
Speaker 2
There actually was more open terrain to do any routes.

01:53:39:26 - 01:53:43:16
Speaker 1
And, over.

01:53:43:19 - 01:53:52:13
Speaker 2
The course of a year, kind of worked on some friends and managed to convince one to to, go out there with me to, to, to try to.

01:53:52:17 - 01:53:58:17
Speaker 1
Put up a new route. And this was a, kind.

01:53:58:17 - 01:54:06:11
Speaker 2
Of like an interesting trip because, the person I went with is predominantly an aid climber.

01:54:06:14 - 01:54:06:25
Speaker 1
She's.

01:54:06:29 - 01:54:09:00
Speaker 2
She's a really talented climber.

01:54:09:00 - 01:54:09:25
Speaker 1
And,

01:54:09:27 - 01:54:11:12
Speaker 2
I've always been kind of more of a free.

01:54:11:12 - 01:54:20:27
Speaker 1
Climber. And we were like, okay, we're not really sure how this is going to go. Never really climb together. And we're no, we're both competent.

01:54:20:29 - 01:54:25:02
Speaker 2
But let's just like, it kind of attacked the wall and just see what we can do.

01:54:25:02 - 01:54:29:07
Speaker 1
And, you know, it's like, if.

01:54:29:09 - 01:54:47:16
Speaker 2
We were just, like, we kind of had this, like, preexisting agreement, like if, if, if the terrain is easier for one of us to move up, we'll just like, give the lead to that person and, and we'll switch when it makes sense to transition. And so we just kind of like kept that mentality and just like.

01:54:47:16 - 01:54:48:13
Speaker 1
Work worked.

01:54:48:13 - 01:54:49:06
Speaker 2
Away at this.

01:54:50:15 - 01:54:51:02
Speaker 2
At this new.

01:54:51:02 - 01:54:54:22
Speaker 1
Route, ground up,

01:54:54:24 - 01:54:59:25
Speaker 2
And, yeah, over the course of two weeks, we managed to establish,

01:54:59:27 - 01:55:12:18
Speaker 1
This 14 pitch line, and, on all of the pitches that were edited, I would like clean on repel. And, if I.

01:55:12:18 - 01:55:17:14
Speaker 2
Needed to place a bullet or two.

01:55:17:17 - 01:55:27:03
Speaker 1
And I managed to free all of them except for one. The ninth pitch. And,

01:55:27:06 - 01:55:50:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, just we ran out of time. And whether it was moving in and the pitch was, it kind of seeps. It's like a seam. Like a big seam. And so I just wasn't able. I tried to do it on mini traction, but I was like, man, I'm not. If I can't do this now, I don't want to put in because like, you know, I was like paranoid that someone was going to come and fire this thing, like, well, I was gonna, you know.

01:55:50:11 - 01:55:54:05
Speaker 1
So I was like, yeah, I was like, you least have to be able to climb the like a.

01:55:54:05 - 01:55:56:18
Speaker 2
Three seam if you want to, like, free this thing, you.

01:55:56:18 - 01:56:02:09
Speaker 1
Know? And so we left it undone. And,

01:56:02:11 - 01:56:05:03
Speaker 2
Two years go by before I could return.

01:56:05:03 - 01:56:07:02
Speaker 1
And, and I have a.

01:56:07:02 - 01:56:11:20
Speaker 2
Daughter and. Yeah, just this past summer. So we had this.

01:56:11:22 - 01:56:13:20
Speaker 1
Definitely, like, shortened trip.

01:56:13:20 - 01:56:18:16
Speaker 2
Because of family obligations and stuff.

01:56:18:18 - 01:56:21:00
Speaker 1
Myself and,

01:56:21:03 - 01:56:25:26
Speaker 2
A buddy and a friend who's a photographer. We wanted to kind of, like, capture some of guys, and.

01:56:25:29 - 01:56:30:12
Speaker 1
We went out, to with the main goal of, of.

01:56:30:12 - 01:56:43:19
Speaker 2
Freeing that pitch. But, you know, I obviously we wanted to, to, you know, get the full, like, in a day free ascent. But yeah, just kind of like.

01:56:43:19 - 01:56:46:21
Speaker 1
One kind of mishap happened.

01:56:46:21 - 01:56:54:11
Speaker 2
After another. Some that were in our control, some were out of our control. And it just kind of like the trip kind.

01:56:54:11 - 01:56:58:15
Speaker 1
Of kept kind of unraveling in our.

01:56:58:15 - 01:57:01:09
Speaker 2
Hands until, like, the very last day.

01:57:02:10 - 01:57:07:19
Speaker 2
Where it was like, okay, this is kind of like, do or die. We have to kind of try to free this last pitch.

01:57:07:21 - 01:57:09:16
Speaker 1
And yeah, managed to.

01:57:09:18 - 01:57:10:03
Speaker 2
Manage to.

01:57:10:03 - 01:57:13:17
Speaker 1
Squeak it and, and, yeah.

01:57:13:17 - 01:57:23:28
Speaker 2
I have this complete near here and I think a friend kind of got wind of it and wrote that nice fluff piece. And here I am.

01:57:24:00 - 01:57:42:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Why not? Right. Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

01:57:42:24 - 01:57:58:08
Speaker 1
A little bit, yeah. Yeah, a little bit. I was definitely like, oh, that was something bold that. So yeah. It's like, you know, there's there's definitely, it's not like,

01:57:58:11 - 01:57:59:13
Speaker 2
It's not,

01:57:59:16 - 01:57:59:29
Speaker 1
Rinky.

01:57:59:29 - 01:58:03:16
Speaker 2
Dink is for climbers. I say.

01:58:03:18 - 01:58:05:28
Speaker 1
And, yeah, I mean, it.

01:58:05:28 - 01:58:07:17
Speaker 2
Was I think the conditions were.

01:58:07:17 - 01:58:11:28
Speaker 1
Made it a little bit more exciting, too. Like, we, we got.

01:58:11:28 - 01:58:12:09
Speaker 2
This, like.

01:58:12:09 - 01:58:16:08
Speaker 1
Really weird grapple storm, in the middle.

01:58:16:08 - 01:58:18:06
Speaker 2
Of our trip that just, like, coated the.

01:58:18:06 - 01:58:26:24
Speaker 1
Wall and in grapple and, grapple. It's like. It's like hail before it, like, hardens.

01:58:26:27 - 01:58:29:01
Speaker 2
So it's like, it's it feels like, kind of like.

01:58:29:01 - 01:58:33:01
Speaker 1
Styrofoam, styrofoam bits.

01:58:33:06 - 01:58:34:26
Speaker 2
It's just like tons of that.

01:58:34:29 - 01:58:38:00
Speaker 1
But, you know, it took longer to melt.

01:58:38:00 - 01:58:48:14
Speaker 2
Because of that. And so, like, the wall was just like, really quite wet. And we were running out of time. So I had to kind of like do a lot of the easier pitches to kind of like access.

01:58:48:14 - 01:58:52:22
Speaker 1
That ninth pitch, wet.

01:58:52:22 - 01:59:02:21
Speaker 2
And that was intimidating. But, you know, it was just like, yeah, like and when it gets wet, it's just like very slick, you know?

01:59:02:24 - 01:59:04:06
Speaker 1
And, the.

01:59:04:09 - 01:59:04:28
Speaker 2
Pitch was.

01:59:04:28 - 01:59:06:09
Speaker 1
Wet, but it.

01:59:06:09 - 01:59:07:23
Speaker 2
Wasn't.

01:59:07:25 - 01:59:13:22
Speaker 1
It wasn't, like, unworkable. And, you know, we we cleaned it and like, you.

01:59:13:22 - 01:59:18:21
Speaker 2
Know, brush it and ticked it and. Yeah, just somehow was able to kind of like squeak at this time.

01:59:18:24 - 01:59:32:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's like, it's kind of like, seen like, but you can't like, yeah, you can't really get finger locks.

01:59:32:23 - 01:59:39:00
Speaker 2
You're kind of like grabbing the edges of the seam.

01:59:39:02 - 01:59:47:22
Speaker 1
And, kind of like, techie feet. It kind of like, is a ball, a little bit of a bulge.

01:59:47:22 - 01:59:50:17
Speaker 2
Like, the hardest bit is kind of like on the edge of the.

01:59:50:17 - 02:00:05:01
Speaker 1
Basketball kind of thing. And, Yeah, I think, I think maybe, like, I don't know, like 13 be or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

02:00:05:03 - 02:00:07:13
Speaker 2
Like done some roots, like kind of the.

02:00:07:13 - 02:00:08:20
Speaker 1
Grain maybe a little harder.

02:00:08:20 - 02:00:12:10
Speaker 2
And earlier in the summer. So I felt like it was kind of around that.

02:00:12:13 - 02:00:27:10
Speaker 1
That range. Yeah. It's got some bolts on it. But like, the hardest bit is bolted. But.

02:00:27:13 - 02:00:31:01
Speaker 2
The start, you have to, like, play some pretty techie gear.

02:00:31:01 - 02:00:34:25
Speaker 1
And the I think the last.

02:00:34:28 - 02:00:39:14
Speaker 2
20ft is protected by, like, to knife blades.

02:00:39:16 - 02:00:41:10
Speaker 1
The I think that they're, I.

02:00:41:10 - 02:00:43:00
Speaker 2
Think that they're were going to stay there.

02:00:43:00 - 02:00:43:12
Speaker 1
I mean.

02:00:43:12 - 02:00:50:11
Speaker 2
I think that that's a really common thing in the winds is like iron kind of because of the intense free stars, like they'll fall out.

02:00:50:11 - 02:00:52:28
Speaker 1
But I, I really made an.

02:00:53:00 - 02:00:54:23
Speaker 2
Point out of, like, placing.

02:00:54:23 - 02:00:55:14
Speaker 1
Them with.

02:00:55:14 - 02:00:59:05
Speaker 2
The intent of them, like, kind of staying in there, like, kind of like crammed.

02:00:59:05 - 02:01:02:27
Speaker 1
In a little bit more. So the goal.

02:01:02:27 - 02:01:08:29
Speaker 2
Is that, like, you can it was to like set up a route that, like, you can go in without.

02:01:08:29 - 02:01:16:05
Speaker 1
A hammer and hike in and repeat the route, you know? Yeah.

02:01:16:05 - 02:01:30:10
Speaker 1
ethics lie? There. Like, you know, because it could be. I think it would be. I had. Depends on person in person, obviously, but, like, I could see it being, you know, tempting to be like, oh, this gear is like, oh, it's kind of weird. Like, it's really tacky. It's kind of

02:01:38:18 - 02:01:40:18
Speaker 1
I mean, like my main motto.

02:01:40:18 - 02:01:41:03
Speaker 2
Is like.

02:01:41:03 - 02:01:47:12
Speaker 1
Scare them, don't kill them. And I didn't come up with that. But I like it.

02:01:47:12 - 02:02:00:14
Speaker 2
I think it's a good kind of mentality, you know, it's like it's good to keep climbing exciting. It's good to. I don't think anyone really likes, like, grid bolted stuff that you can just, like, a zero.

02:02:00:14 - 02:02:01:27
Speaker 1
Up. I like it.

02:02:01:27 - 02:02:03:01
Speaker 2
I like it when you actually have to.

02:02:03:07 - 02:02:11:18
Speaker 1
Climb in between, but, but yeah, I mean, I, I don't I'm not a head point climber.

02:02:11:18 - 02:02:22:19
Speaker 2
I don't put up routes that are just like horror shows that no one will ever repeat. And as far as, like, bolts versus.

02:02:22:21 - 02:02:24:17
Speaker 1
Like, peckers.

02:02:24:17 - 02:02:26:12
Speaker 2
And knife blades and stuff.

02:02:26:14 - 02:02:26:26
Speaker 1
You know, I.

02:02:26:26 - 02:02:29:03
Speaker 2
Think a lot of routes can be.

02:02:29:03 - 02:02:31:05
Speaker 1
Done on.

02:02:31:07 - 02:02:33:27
Speaker 2
Peckers and knife blades that are actually quite solid.

02:02:33:27 - 02:02:35:13
Speaker 1
But I just kind of.

02:02:35:13 - 02:02:37:11
Speaker 2
Noticed, like over time.

02:02:39:05 - 02:02:46:10
Speaker 2
When these routes get established, it's like all fine and dandy for the first dissension for the first.

02:02:46:12 - 02:02:48:02
Speaker 1
Party. And yeah, they can.

02:02:48:02 - 02:02:51:16
Speaker 2
Claim like good ethics of like not placing bolts and stuff like.

02:02:51:16 - 02:02:56:20
Speaker 1
That. But, for anyone to go repeat those routes.

02:02:56:22 - 02:02:57:20
Speaker 2
They essentially need.

02:02:57:20 - 02:02:58:29
Speaker 1
To like put in.

02:02:59:01 - 02:03:08:11
Speaker 2
The same effort as, as a first ascent party. And when I was first going to the wins, like that was the intention.

02:03:08:13 - 02:03:11:10
Speaker 1
People wanted to do that. People.

02:03:11:10 - 02:03:12:25
Speaker 2
Wanted to kind of preserve.

02:03:12:25 - 02:03:17:19
Speaker 1
The, the, that feeling.

02:03:17:19 - 02:03:19:29
Speaker 2
Of doing new routes and stuff.

02:03:20:01 - 02:03:22:00
Speaker 1
But I think, the.

02:03:22:00 - 02:03:26:07
Speaker 2
Hubris of man has perhaps kind of made it so.

02:03:26:07 - 02:03:29:09
Speaker 1
That people don't really want to put in.

02:03:29:09 - 02:03:30:28
Speaker 2
First ascent effort.

02:03:31:01 - 02:03:33:20
Speaker 1
For, like, repeat credibility.

02:03:33:20 - 02:03:39:27
Speaker 2
If that makes sense. And I noticed that just like a lot of these routes just don't get done.

02:03:40:00 - 02:03:42:06
Speaker 1
And, you know, I wanted I.

02:03:42:06 - 02:03:45:15
Speaker 2
Kind of wanted to, I've got a lot of routes that.

02:03:45:15 - 02:03:49:28
Speaker 1
People don't do. Don't remember repeated. And.

02:03:50:00 - 02:03:51:06
Speaker 2
I kind of wanted to create.

02:03:51:06 - 02:03:56:03
Speaker 1
Something that maybe, maybe people would want to repeat, you know?

02:03:56:06 - 02:04:08:15
Speaker 2
So that was what I thought.

02:04:08:18 - 02:04:09:21
Speaker 1
I mean, I think local.

02:04:09:21 - 02:04:12:24
Speaker 2
Is a pretty broad sense of the term.

02:04:12:26 - 02:04:13:07
Speaker 1
You know.

02:04:13:07 - 02:04:18:21
Speaker 2
There's, I mean, there's lander, and there's that's a bit of a climbing town.

02:04:18:21 - 02:04:22:00
Speaker 1
But, and, you know.

02:04:22:05 - 02:04:25:24
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, there's always someone you're going to piss off.

02:04:25:26 - 02:04:37:20
Speaker 1
And.

02:04:37:22 - 02:04:46:24
Speaker 1
Yeah.

02:04:46:27 - 02:04:50:13
Speaker 1
No. No, actually, no, I wasn't even aware of that. I have climbed.

02:04:50:13 - 02:04:51:05
Speaker 2
In places.

02:04:51:05 - 02:04:53:09
Speaker 1
Where where,

02:04:53:11 - 02:04:54:10
Speaker 2
You know, it's like Fight.

02:04:54:10 - 02:05:11:03
Speaker 1
Club, you know, you don't, you know, talk about it, but,

02:05:11:03 - 02:05:13:03
Speaker 1
I feel like,

02:05:13:06 - 02:05:15:07
Speaker 2
Some areas.

02:05:15:28 - 02:05:19:20
Speaker 2
Just can't sustain.

02:05:19:23 - 02:05:21:15
Speaker 1
Some, like, heavy.

02:05:21:15 - 02:05:25:22
Speaker 2
Increase in visitation. And so.

02:05:28:26 - 02:05:36:17
Speaker 2
You know, when you, like, put something on the internet for everyone to access, you kind of, like, expose it to.

02:05:36:20 - 02:05:38:05
Speaker 1
Becoming, like, in vogue.

02:05:38:05 - 02:05:40:04
Speaker 2
And becoming very popular very.

02:05:40:04 - 02:05:41:21
Speaker 1
Quickly.

02:05:41:23 - 02:05:51:10
Speaker 2
And so I think sometimes people will try to protect an area from, from that kind of rapid, unsustainable development.

02:05:51:10 - 02:05:51:23
Speaker 1
And I can.

02:05:51:23 - 02:05:57:10
Speaker 2
I can certainly respect that. And there's some places that I've been to that.

02:05:57:10 - 02:05:59:04
Speaker 1
Really,

02:05:59:06 - 02:06:08:26
Speaker 2
Preserve this kind of feeling of adventure, which I, which I really like. I think you kind of have to dig a little deeper and kind of do a bit of a scavenger hunt, like.

02:06:08:28 - 02:06:09:25
Speaker 1
And when you really.

02:06:09:25 - 02:06:12:29
Speaker 2
Start looking and asking questions and the right people.

02:06:12:29 - 02:06:14:01
Speaker 1
Like,

02:06:14:04 - 02:06:16:13
Speaker 2
They're generally pretty friendly to.

02:06:17:11 - 02:06:19:25
Speaker 2
To, to share information about it.

02:06:19:25 - 02:06:20:26
Speaker 1
But,

02:06:20:29 - 02:06:33:23
Speaker 2
It just takes that tiny bit extra effort that like, that's, that's, this just kind of like, unhinged surge.

02:06:33:25 - 02:06:35:18
Speaker 1
Of,

02:06:35:21 - 02:06:38:04
Speaker 2
Visitation that can just like, rack up place really.

02:06:38:04 - 02:06:43:06
Speaker 1
Quickly. So, yeah. Yeah.

02:06:43:06 - 02:06:58:24
Speaker 1
sure. Especially for. I guess it's it's probably a smaller scale that like, for certain crags or whatever. It's like while you're developing that, while you're, like, trying to establish it while you're enjoying it. Because it's your backyard and you're putting in the work in like, yeah, keep it on the low like it's, you know, have, you know, you're the one putting the work in.

02:06:58:24 - 02:07:06:22
Speaker 1
You're the one who found it. So it's totally fine to, to kind of keep it to yourself. And then I guess it's on you to choose when you want to kind of move on

02:07:09:07 - 02:07:10:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And I think that.

02:07:10:22 - 02:07:12:11
Speaker 2
There's healthy ways to do it.

02:07:12:11 - 02:07:14:13
Speaker 1
And I mean, again, I don't.

02:07:14:13 - 02:07:22:11
Speaker 2
Think you need to be an asshole about it. And I think some, there's plenty of occasions where people have people are overly protective.

02:07:22:11 - 02:07:22:27
Speaker 1
And.

02:07:22:29 - 02:07:39:14
Speaker 2
People just, like, don't want things to change because it was, like, so much better in the good old days. And I honestly, I think all of that's kind of bullshit. And I think it's just, I think it just kind of comes down to people just like, don't want not wanting to be forgotten.

02:07:39:17 - 02:07:42:04
Speaker 1
But, but I.

02:07:42:04 - 02:07:44:00
Speaker 2
Do think that it's.

02:07:44:03 - 02:07:47:28
Speaker 1
Maybe.

02:07:48:01 - 02:07:53:25
Speaker 2
Attacked approach for, for, for kind of like preserving,

02:07:53:27 - 02:07:54:20
Speaker 1
And the.

02:07:54:20 - 02:07:56:02
Speaker 2
Mentality of a place, you.

02:07:56:02 - 02:08:00:29
Speaker 1
Know.

02:08:01:01 - 02:08:11:08
Speaker 1
Right. Yeah.

02:08:11:10 - 02:08:13:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, it's just like the difference, really.

02:08:13:05 - 02:08:22:20
Speaker 2
It's just the difference between, like, Google searching when you're, like, sitting on the toilet versus like, going to the, the gear store and lander and being.

02:08:22:20 - 02:08:24:17
Speaker 1
Like, hey, like, can you tell me about this?

02:08:24:17 - 02:08:36:04
Speaker 2
And they'll tell you, you know, and put you in the right direction. You know, it's like it's not like it's like, you know, like Indiana Jones, like searching for the hidden treasure or anything like that, you know, it's like.

02:08:36:06 - 02:08:38:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's it's not.

02:08:38:10 - 02:08:38:24
Speaker 2
It's not that.

02:08:38:24 - 02:08:41:07
Speaker 1
Bad. Yeah.

02:08:41:07 - 02:09:02:03
Speaker 1
Well, nice. Dude. I think, you know, I'd like to close out the conversation with just a bit of just kind of like, I don't know, reflective questions. Kind of like, to kind of close it out. Do you have, like, a legacy that you'd like to leave behind? Like, as a, as a climber? You know, because you are, you know, we talk about things that, you know, you leave behind as a person, right?

02:09:02:06 - 02:09:20:07
Speaker 1
You know, this podcast is an example of that. Like, who knows how long, you know, these conversations will live. But you know, the climbs that you set up out there, you know, we'll we'll be there, you know, essentially forever. Like, is there anything you want to leave behind in terms of your name and what your roots say about you?

02:09:20:07 - 02:09:22:16
Speaker 1
know, I mean, I think if anything, I.

02:09:22:20 - 02:09:24:18
Speaker 2
Would, I would like to leave behind is.

02:09:24:18 - 02:09:26:13
Speaker 1
Like,

02:09:26:16 - 02:09:30:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. Just like, Yeah. He's a good person.

02:09:30:04 - 02:09:34:24
Speaker 1
You know, that. There's a good dad, good partner, good loving.

02:09:34:27 - 02:09:38:07
Speaker 2
Husband, brother, son.

02:09:38:09 - 02:09:44:29
Speaker 1
Father. You know, I, I, I mean, I think it's like.

02:09:45:02 - 02:09:46:11
Speaker 2
Putting up roots is like.

02:09:46:11 - 02:09:47:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, maybe.

02:09:47:13 - 02:09:49:29
Speaker 2
Extends your lifetime.

02:09:50:01 - 02:09:50:28
Speaker 1
You know, like.

02:09:51:00 - 02:09:59:07
Speaker 2
The last time your name is said. Maybe by a couple of years. But I think what really matters is, is being a good person, you know?

02:10:00:05 - 02:10:08:07
Speaker 1
What about a lesson that climbing has taught you? That you would not have learned anywhere else?

02:10:08:28 - 02:10:14:26
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, I don't know about anywhere else, but climbing has taught me a lot of lessons.

02:10:14:29 - 02:10:23:13
Speaker 2
It's taught me to appreciate life. It's taught me to.

02:10:23:15 - 02:10:32:10
Speaker 1
Be grateful for what I have. It's it's taught me how to,

02:10:32:13 - 02:10:42:09
Speaker 2
Realize dreams, and how to, overcome difficulties, amongst other.

02:10:42:09 - 02:10:44:01
Speaker 1
Things. Yeah.

02:10:44:15 - 02:10:49:26
Speaker 1
What would you be doing if you weren't climbing? If you've climbing, never came into your view, what do you think you'd be doing?

02:10:49:26 - 02:10:52:03
Speaker 2
I try to find something.

02:10:52:05 - 02:10:54:15
Speaker 1
I don't know. I mean, I,

02:10:54:21 - 02:10:57:17
Speaker 2
There's, like, a lot of different things that I.

02:10:57:17 - 02:11:01:27
Speaker 1
Would, But I think, I mean.

02:11:02:00 - 02:11:03:25
Speaker 2
Regardless of what it is.

02:11:03:25 - 02:11:05:19
Speaker 1
I, I, you know.

02:11:05:19 - 02:11:07:15
Speaker 2
I'm a bit of an existentialist. I do.

02:11:07:15 - 02:11:09:26
Speaker 1
Believe in, having.

02:11:09:26 - 02:11:12:17
Speaker 2
Some sort of purpose to keep you out of the despair.

02:11:12:22 - 02:11:13:18
Speaker 1
You know.

02:11:13:21 - 02:11:14:06
Speaker 2
I think that's.

02:11:14:06 - 02:11:17:24
Speaker 1
Important. Yeah. It doesn't matter what it is that.

02:11:17:27 - 02:11:20:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, just despair is not worth it.

02:11:20:02 - 02:11:23:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:11:24:13 - 02:11:35:01
Speaker 1
What about the climbing community as a whole? Do you like what? What do you feel like? What are what are what's one really good aspect that you've seen in the climbing community? And what is something that we could do better?

02:11:35:09 - 02:11:36:11
Speaker 1
Man, it's tough because.

02:11:36:11 - 02:11:39:09
Speaker 2
The climbing community as a whole is just so massive.

02:11:39:09 - 02:11:49:12
Speaker 1
Now. But I think one thing that's, I think the one thing that's good about.

02:11:49:12 - 02:11:52:04
Speaker 2
It is this kind of like.

02:11:52:06 - 02:11:55:20
Speaker 1
Unifying, component it has.

02:11:55:20 - 02:12:08:27
Speaker 2
It doesn't always do this, but it has the capacity to kind of create a sense of belonging. I think that that's good. I think that may be something that we could do.

02:12:08:27 - 02:12:10:04
Speaker 1
Better,

02:12:10:06 - 02:12:19:05
Speaker 2
As a climbing community is just,

02:12:19:07 - 02:12:25:15
Speaker 1
Maybe just kind of recognizing that we're, for whatever.

02:12:25:15 - 02:12:26:01
Speaker 2
Reason.

02:12:26:01 - 02:12:28:00
Speaker 1
We're bit under.

02:12:28:03 - 02:12:30:27
Speaker 2
A spotlight in terms of, like, outdoor.

02:12:31:27 - 02:12:35:14
Speaker 2
Recreation. Us. People are watching what.

02:12:35:14 - 02:12:40:15
Speaker 1
We're doing, and, if they don't like it.

02:12:40:15 - 02:12:51:22
Speaker 2
They sometimes can have the capacity to, like, take it away from us. And so, you know, this is something I was always kind of taught living abroad. Is that, like.

02:12:51:25 - 02:12:52:28
Speaker 1
Yeah, you're an American.

02:12:52:28 - 02:12:53:27
Speaker 2
Abroad, in a.

02:12:53:27 - 02:12:58:01
Speaker 1
Way. You're a mini ambassador of your country.

02:12:58:07 - 02:13:03:09
Speaker 2
You represent to other people like your country.

02:13:03:09 - 02:13:05:23
Speaker 1
And, and you don't.

02:13:05:23 - 02:13:17:00
Speaker 2
Want to give off this impression that we're just like, you know, complete lunatics. And so with, with climbing to, you know, I feel like.

02:13:17:02 - 02:13:17:13
Speaker 1
Maybe.

02:13:17:13 - 02:13:20:14
Speaker 2
Recognizing that,

02:13:20:17 - 02:13:23:01
Speaker 1
You know, it's not all about you.

02:13:23:03 - 02:13:36:06
Speaker 2
Is, is, something that's a good, maybe a good practice, for for all of us.

02:13:36:08 - 02:13:41:08
Speaker 1
For sure.

02:13:41:10 - 02:13:44:04
Speaker 1
I'm sure, I heard there.

02:13:44:04 - 02:13:47:10
Speaker 2
There was, like, a really big closure in the Red River Gorge.

02:13:47:10 - 02:13:51:24
Speaker 1
Recently. Yeah, yeah. And the, the, the.

02:13:51:24 - 02:14:07:20
Speaker 2
Grampians just had, I believe, was the Grampians. Just had a bunch of big blanket closures. And, you know, some of this stuff is, like, not really in our control, but, like, I think it certainly helps when you have this, like, kind of history and legacy to look back on. Like it's like, look.

02:14:07:20 - 02:14:10:24
Speaker 1
We're, we're we care. And

02:14:10:26 - 02:14:12:05
Speaker 2
We have proof.

02:14:12:07 - 02:14:13:00
Speaker 1
And like.

02:14:13:00 - 02:14:21:13
Speaker 2
So listen to us kind of thing. I think that that can help us, for, for like, management in the future because.

02:14:21:16 - 02:14:22:20
Speaker 1
You know.

02:14:22:22 - 02:14:25:09
Speaker 2
While it seems like there's rock everywhere, there is, like a.

02:14:25:09 - 02:14:26:10
Speaker 1
Finite amount of.

02:14:26:10 - 02:14:29:05
Speaker 2
It, you know, and there's bigger be.

02:14:29:06 - 02:14:29:29
Speaker 1
Big.

02:14:30:01 - 02:14:31:24
Speaker 2
Inspiring places are.

02:14:31:25 - 02:14:34:00
Speaker 1
Are, you know, limited.

02:14:34:00 - 02:14:35:12
Speaker 2
So it's like we have to kind of like.

02:14:35:12 - 02:14:52:11
Speaker 1
Learn how to get along, you know? Yeah.

02:14:52:13 - 02:14:54:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thanks. God. I mean, it's pretty wild.

02:14:54:12 - 02:14:59:15
Speaker 2
It's never done a podcast before. So, this is, is a cool experience, and it's cool to.

02:14:59:15 - 02:15:02:10
Speaker 1
Cool to meet you. And maybe we can, meet.

02:15:02:10 - 02:15:02:23
Speaker 2
In person.

02:15:02:23 - 02:15:06:28
Speaker 1
One day.

02:15:07:00 - 02:15:10:10
Speaker 1
For sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a good, I'll.

02:15:10:11 - 02:15:11:06
Speaker 2
I was spray.

02:15:11:06 - 02:15:16:26
Speaker 1
Down, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:15:16:29 - 02:15:18:10
Speaker 2
Well thanks again, dude.

02:15:19:14 - 02:15:37:09
Speaker 1
That concludes today's episode, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. It really means a lot to me that you're here. If you like today's episode, please be sure to rate and review the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. This simple gesture helps the algorithm share this podcast with new listeners. Please also share this podcast with your friends.

02:15:37:10 - 02:15:59:09
Speaker 1
Word of mouth is honestly the best way to support the show. Also, if you're psyched about what we're doing here at The Climbing Majority, please reach out to me via Instagram or email me at the Climbing Majority podcast at gmail.com. I want to hear from you. And don't forget you can watch our full episodes on YouTube. Stay tuned for our next episode where I sit down with the legendary Greek freak Devin Finn.

02:15:59:11 - 02:16:08:00
Speaker 1
Until then, keep exploring. Stay safe. And as always, thanks for being a part of the climbing majority. I will see you all in two weeks.