85 | The Passionate Pioneer of Pacific Northwest Climbing w/ Wayne Wallace

Today, I am sharing a conversation with you that has truly left me inspired and honestly pretty humbled. Wayne Wallace—a name that might not immediately ring bells for some of you outside the Pacific Northwest, but one that should. Wayne is, without exaggeration, a living legend in the climbing world. His dedication to the craft spans decades, and his career has been marked by unparalleled passion, mentorship, alpine route development, and pure adventure. 

In this episode, we dive deep into Wayne’s journey—from his early days discovering climbing in a world where the technology for clean free climbing was just starting to be developed… to decades later,  becoming one of the most prolific alpine route developers in the Pacific Northwest, with countless FA’s including the mythical Mongo Ridge of West Fury.  We’ll explore his process for creating new routes, the ethical dilemmas of bolting, and how he views his role as a mentor to the next generation. As an advocate for important and thoughtful climbing ethics— he promotes balancing the ego of creation with the responsibility of establishing routes that others can safely climb after you. 

Wayne also opens up about the transitions climbers face as they age, and what it means to continue finding joy in the sport when your approach—and body—changes. Wayne’s adaptability is a testament to his love for all disciplines of the sport. He openly shares lessons learned from his close calls, the importance of bailing when necessary, and his commitment to leaving a positive legacy. His reflections on balancing ambition with survival are a powerful reminder that climbing is not just about reaching summits—it’s about passion, community, and the wisdom you gain as you survive a lifetime of climbing. 

Talking with Wayne felt like stepping into a world of climbing that I’ve only scratched the surface of. His humility and depth of experience were both inspiring and intimidating. This man has lived a life devoted to climbing in a way that few can comprehend. 

And now I bring you…Explorer, Mentor, Route Developer, and self proclaimed serial sandbagger.. Wayne Wallace. 

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Resources

Wayne's Website

Wayne's IG

Wayne's Mountain Project Profile

AAC Write Up on The Mongo Ridge

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 3:01 Wayne Wallace
• 1:57:07 Outro

Transcript

00;00;00;18 - 00;00;05;27
Speaker 1
Have you ever felt that most climbing media only tells stories about what's happening at the pinnacle of the sport,

00;00;05;27 - 00;00;08;24
Speaker 1
leaving the stories of everyday climbers untold?

00;00;09;04 - 00;00;14;06
Speaker 1
I'm Kyle, and I believe that there is a growing group of climbers that wants representation.

00;00;14;12 - 00;00;24;05
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.

00;00;24;07 - 00;00;28;29
Speaker 1
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.

00;00;30;25 - 00;00;56;02
Speaker 1
Welcome back everybody. I am your host Kyle Brock Strowman. And today I am going to be sharing a conversation with you that has truly left me inspired. And honestly pretty humbled. Wayne Wallace A name that might not immediately ring bells for some of you outside the Pacific Northwest, but one that should. Wayne is, without exaggeration, a living legend in the climbing world.

00;00;56;04 - 00;01;29;02
Speaker 1
His dedication to the craft spans decades, and his career has been marked by unparalleled passion, mentorship, alpine route development, and pure adventure. In this episode, we dive deep into Wayne's journey from his early days discovering climbing in a world where technology for free climbing was just starting to get developed two decades later, becoming one of the most prolific alpine route developers in the Pacific Northwest, with countless first ascents including the mythical mango Ridge of West Fury.

00;01;29;04 - 00;01;56;07
Speaker 1
We'll explore his process for creating new routes, the ethical dilemmas of bolting, and how he views his role as a mentor to the next generation. As an advocate for important and thoughtful climbing ethics, he promotes balancing the ego of creation with the responsibility of establishing routes that others can safely climb. After you. Wayne also opens up about the transitions climbers face as they age, and what it means to continue finding joy in the sport when your approach and body changes.

00;01;56;10 - 00;02;22;26
Speaker 1
Wayne's adaptability is a testament for his love for all disciplines of the sport. He openly shares lessons learned from his close calls, the importance of bailing when necessary, and his commitment to leaving a positive legacy. His reflections on balancing ambition with survival are a powerful reminder that climbing is not just about reaching summits. It's about passion, community, and the wisdom you gain as you survive a lifetime of climbing.

00;02;22;28 - 00;02;48;00
Speaker 1
Talking with Wayne felt like stepping into a world of climbing that I've only scratched the surface of. His humility and depth of experience were both inspiring and a little intimidating. This man has lived a life devoted to climbing in a way that few can comprehend. And now I bring you explorer, mentor, route developer, and self-proclaimed serial sand bagger, Wayne Wallace.

00;03;04;07 - 00;03;31;21
Speaker 1
I'm going to say, approximately 1973. I can't nail a the tail on the donkey. Exactly. But I estimate around 73. I was about ten. But now I might even be even before that, because at nine, I was allowed early entry into the Pathfinder. It's a scouting group where I actually got to try rock climbing with ropes on my own.

00;03;31;24 - 00;04;05;05
Speaker 1
But before that, I was picnicking, at a park, and we ran up the hill, not knowing there was a cliff up there. And we ran into a party that was rock climbing up there, and I. I asked them if I could climb it. It was A56 at Broughton's Bluff and they they're like, sure they, you know, crank down the diaper, sling a little tighter and wrapped it around, because I was a scrawny little kid and I climbed it and it I had been vaguely interested in climbing and adventure before that.

00;04;05;05 - 00;04;23;00
Speaker 1
But when I got to do that in 1978 or something early 70s, it it became a much bigger part of my, you know, thoughts.

00;04;23;02 - 00;04;50;09
Speaker 1
It's a I believe it was a pretty popular crag back then. Yeah. You know, not as much as now, of course. At the Columbia River Gorge, right outside of Portland, the first thing you come to an Oregon side is Broughton's Bluff. It's where the the river went into tidewater, almost. Or, you know, the Columbia where it was it the Columbia mountain or the Cascade Mountains?

00;04;50;09 - 00;05;11;12
Speaker 1
Stop right there and then. Yeah, we were we just it was about a 20 minute hike up there, and we didn't know that, my wife checking up on me. We didn't know that there'd be climbers up there. You can sort of see rocks up there from from the parking lot or whatever, but we didn't know what to expect that when we did.

00;05;11;14 - 00;05;37;22
Speaker 1
You know, I, I, I don't remember much about asking them. I know it's nervous. I was probably 8 or 9 years old at the time. I was really nervous to ask them, but they just seemed like such a cool group of people that I thought they'd say yes. And they did. They do. Reporters, bless their hearts.

00;05;37;24 - 00;05;50;23
Speaker 1
They were hikers. They're hikers and car campers. But, they wouldn't backpack. I wanted to get them to do that. They certainly weren't climbers or it or remote, you know, remotely.

00;05;50;23 - 00;05;51;18
Speaker 1
Right. Like your.

00;05;51;18 - 00;05;52;17
Speaker 2
Your parents.

00;05;52;19 - 00;05;57;15
Speaker 1
Your parents like set the tone for like a certain things. And then the kids take it a step

00;05;58;03 - 00;06;22;23
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. We were scrambling away and doing our thing. I'll tell you the one I. One of my earliest memories of Oregon. I moved there when I was two and a half or three, and I remember we went to Smith Rock and it was kind of a nothing place, but there was a climber on the rock, and my parents pointed to the climber and said, look, we there's a climber up there.

00;06;22;23 - 00;06;52;07
Speaker 1
You're interested in climbing, right? And as a kid, I was interested in lots of different things. And one of them was climbing, but I could never see the person up there. I could never see him. But the fact that there was a person up on that wall, I just pictured him up there. And that was, at that early age, you know, that, you know, three or even I remember that memory really clearly, just the how preposterous the idea was of going up.

00;06;52;09 - 00;06;59;29
Speaker 1
And, and most people still think this going up on a rock wall, you know, tempting fate, as it were.

00;06;59;29 - 00;07;22;11
Speaker 1
And I think it's interesting that, like nowadays with social media and with how much cameras are accessible and how there's text, there's just images and videos of climbing everywhere. And it's even surpassed, like the inside community of climbing, where people who don't know what climbing was is still know what climbing is now because of movies like Free Solo.

00;07;22;13 - 00;07;35;05
Speaker 1
And so like back then, we didn't have that kind of, saturation of climbing media. So like, how did you even comprehend what climbing was like? How did you envision that?

00;07;37;29 - 00;08;00;11
Speaker 1
And we'd go to the library and, we'd go through the sports section and maybe there'd be a mountaineering book. I remember one life changing. I'd already rock climbed a little bit, but I remember seeing a stone ray booth that's big colored, glossy coffee table book in our library in, like, fifth or sixth grade. And I hadn't really gotten into climbing heavily.

00;08;00;11 - 00;08;22;06
Speaker 1
Or you certainly alpine climbing at all. But when I saw that, I thought that was tremendous. We wore out our copies of Royal Robin's Basic Rock craft one and two. We had the Rye catalog milled. I'm. I'm a five digit RTI. Remember me? And so we had. Yeah, we had you know, the catalogs would come and those were groundbreaking.

00;08;22;06 - 00;08;47;03
Speaker 1
Seeing the pictures of those National geographic occasionally. But they again, they were all almost all tuned towards, you know, the big alpine mountains. There wasn't except for Royal Robin's rock craft. There wasn't a big media even telling us what how to do it, how well what to go out and do. I went out literally with my mom's like garage ropes.

00;08;47;05 - 00;09;11;01
Speaker 1
The, you know, nylon boat boating type ropes, and tied it around myself and tried to repel and, you know, the ropes would break or the trees. We were, we were obsessed with it. And before we had resources to do it. And then eventually I got paper routes and started supporting, buying a little piece of gear here and there.

00;09;11;01 - 00;09;28;20
Speaker 1
I remember I went to Broughton's, and this is a powerful moment for me. This was like fate telling me that this was going to happen, and I was really wanting to harness. And I went to Broughton's one day. I just rode there on my bike. It was five miles away. I rode there and I hiked up there just by myself, just like soul searching.

00;09;28;20 - 00;09;47;15
Speaker 1
And there was nobody there. But on the ground was a harness, a real harness and a couple locking carabiners. And I remember I left it there and they ran all around the crags looking for anybody, and there was nobody there. So I'm like, okay, beauty, you know?

00;09;47;15 - 00;09;48;16
Speaker 1
universe just granted

00;09;48;16 - 00;09;52;22
Speaker 1
yeah, but I didn't even have rock shoes until high school.

00;09;52;22 - 00;10;10;09
Speaker 1
Like I was up there in ten shoes. And it was mostly aid climbing because I didn't have any upper body strength. I didn't grow tall. I got out of high school, so I learned ape climbing, mostly because I like the gear to.

00;10;11;07 - 00;10;30;19
Speaker 1
We we were already being indoctrinated into clean climbing. I remember I got in trouble for pounding a piton and, trying to bail myself out of this fight with a piton. Got scared of the lead of a deck fall, and this guy went, ran to the top of the climb, poked his head over the edge and said, hey, what the hell are you doing?

00;10;30;22 - 00;10;50;11
Speaker 1
And I'm like, Piton craft? And he's like, no, we don't do that anymore. So, so there was always there was always pressure of once the nuts came out, I remember, I we were I was at school in the area cataloging this like, you know, fox heads, clean climbing. It was a big it was a big deal.

00;10;50;11 - 00;11;05;09
Speaker 1
And it was scary because boy pitons, Surf's up. If you're felt good.

00;11;05;11 - 00;11;26;15
Speaker 1
That was a pretty smooth transition because it just did make sense. If you ever went to Yosemite or seen the damage that pitons did, it just it made sense immediately, especially the British influence. They they're so proper and correct. They, they, they kicked it through the the goal posts in Americans eventually started putting their hammers away,

00;11;26;15 - 00;11;27;24
Speaker 1
also faster, right?

00;11;27;24 - 00;11;34;17
Speaker 1
Oh yeah. It it ended up being faster. And when cams came out that was, you know, a huge game changer to

00;11;34;17 - 00;11;47;06
Speaker 1
Now like my buddy and I in the past used to like joke and do like an all night ascent to try to pay homage to the, to the past like, and I find it to be really

00;11;48;01 - 00;11;51;12
Speaker 1
Oh you're. Yeah.

00;11;51;12 - 00;11;59;25
Speaker 1
we're the climbs you guys doing limited to the kind of gear you had, or were you guys just throwing yourself at whatever and just kind of like, figuring it out?

00;12;00;15 - 00;12;24;09
Speaker 1
The areas around Oregon and, the cracks undulated. There was basalt, so they annihilated pretty well for stoppers and hexes. And in fact, it claims at beacon Rock I would prefer actually, it's a it's so jagged in some of the cracks. A hex would even work better than the cam because the lobes would hit in really funny places.

00;12;24;11 - 00;12;48;12
Speaker 1
So it really suited the time and the place. And even, you know, Yosemite, the pin scars and everything worked pretty well. The stoppers. But you just can't do, you know, all, of all of the climbs now with stoppers, you know, like they used to, everything was really a lot more limited as far as you know. We didn't bolt the faces.

00;12;48;14 - 00;13;15;22
Speaker 1
We climbed the cracks. If we were lucky to have a crack. And then, you know, you're going to find something to go. And and it was it was scary. I never I always thought, you know, a climb better than you need to to avoid falls. And I still carry that philosophy even with, you know, the great gear we have now, it's still falling for me as a, like a last resort.

00;13;15;22 - 00;13;28;24
Speaker 1
you say that because I, I agree and I think there's a big push in, in media these days where it's like you know you, you know if you're not following you're not trying. Like if you're not falling, you're not pushing your grades. Like, you know, you have to be okay to fall. The gear is good.

00;13;28;26 - 00;13;52;23
Speaker 1
And honestly, I like I get it. If you're trying to become like a super pro and like you need to really figure it out and you have the time to dial the gear and like, you know how to do it safely. But I'd say for most people, you know, the majority, as it were, if you're a weekend warrior and you don't have time to like, focus too much, on like being a master of your gear and you're trying to go out and have an adventure and on site routes, I would say falling is

00;13;54;26 - 00;14;31;22
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. You can get hurt. Falling I've come really close. And I tell you. You know we're talking about rock climbing here. But my my bias, my my most passionate sub sport is ice climbing and mixed climbing and in, in the real sense. And that ice climbing especially is a no fall sport. Anyways, so if, if you buy into that philosophy and, and also I want to on site things that's, that's another part a backbone of my philosophy as like I can, you know, project things.

00;14;31;22 - 00;14;59;25
Speaker 1
I don't have a problem with that. But to me, there's no greater joy than going up and on citing something. And if I fall, you know, darn, it's becomes a project. So that philosophy wraps around all of my climbing right now. And.

00;14;59;27 - 00;15;11;14
Speaker 1
It depends. But mostly I do like to finish projects, so I start. Yeah, but it and,

00;15;11;16 - 00;15;19;22
Speaker 1
A lot of times I will, a lot of times I will bail off of it, but I'll come back to it, you know, especially if it really works for.

00;15;19;22 - 00;15;29;12
Speaker 1
you can't get to the top or you can't complete throughout, then like total you got to go back and do it. But if you fall and you get back on and then you finish the route and it's like for me I'm like, I don't need to go back and do it again to

00;15;30;27 - 00;15;33;01
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly.

00;15;33;01 - 00;15;36;09
Speaker 2
For like.

00;15;36;12 - 00;16;04;29
Speaker 1
Early stages of climbing, like I say, like the first year of trad climbing is, like, super dangerous, especially, like, even nowadays where, you know, you don't really know what you're doing. You know, you could be just, like setting booby traps for yourself left and right. And you just don't really know because you're not falling or whatever. So, like, I mean, I have my own stories, like, I, I was, I had this vision to, like, clean this unclaimed face, and we didn't really know how to set up the systems.

00;16;04;29 - 00;16;27;05
Speaker 1
Right. And long story short, I ended up, getting lowered on the, wire of an ATC rather than the the metal loop in the back. And, I like my full body weight. And my partner was on that, that loop, on the anchor, and like, he he noticed it and was able to like, hey, dude, you need to, like, grab the wall and you need to come up and not fall.

00;16;27;07 - 00;16;37;21
Speaker 1
And I survived. It would have not. It would have been a fatal fall. But like, moments like that happen, I think to a lot of us in our first year of tried climbing because we just don't know, it's like, so, like, were those moments

00;16;40;09 - 00;17;13;13
Speaker 1
But actually, a lot of them, too. Actually, I. I was a slow learner, and I kind of felt invincible with my early success, and I was. I was kind of cocky and brash. And my friends would argue you were used past tense. But anyways, I got in a lot of accidents when I was young, but rarely injured, but certainly like big epics, you know, snowstorms, epic descents, avalanches, big

00;17;13;13 - 00;17;22;29
Speaker 1
Like. Right. Like in the in the early, early stages when you're like. I mean, you said you're starting to climb when you're ten, like ages 10 or 12, like, do you have a memorable experience in your in your learning where it was

00;17;22;29 - 00;17;49;11
Speaker 1
well, I did take a ground fall aid climbing. Yeah. When I was pretty young and that, that was, you know, good that I didn't hurt myself really bad, but, I should have one way to think that I would have, you know, not had as many accidents. And I was really lucky that I survived them all because some of them were really huge and almost unsurvivable.

00;17;49;13 - 00;18;11;03
Speaker 1
But somehow I managed to, you know, break a leg here, break an arm there. And now, knock on wood, I eventually I think it was sometime in the 90s. I got it. And I'm like, Wayne, you know, you're getting older now. You need to get all you can out of the rest of you and and not make any more stupid mistakes.

00;18;11;03 - 00;18;37;05
Speaker 1
Because, like, if all the stories that I. I could tell you, none of them were like some old random coincidence that, you know, it was me. It was me pushing it. It was me at the, you know, kind of just, I guess we did have a random weather event, an El cap. That was really bad. But even then, you know, we didn't have great weather forecast, I guess, or it's good.

00;18;37;08 - 00;19;01;09
Speaker 1
But, you know, we made mistakes going into that climb that made us take the wrong way down El Cap and that was a insane epic. That was almost. It's amazing we didn't get rescued. And even rescues back then were, you know, not easy. Especially during storms. But, so I learn and and knock on wood, like again, I'll complete my thought.

00;19;01;09 - 00;19;29;23
Speaker 1
I haven't really had any accidents or injuries or big, you know, incidents where somebody has gotten hurt, since the 90s. No. Great, you know, awful stories. So I think, you know, if you can survive your early career. Yeah. Great. But learn from other people's mistakes if you can, like, listen to podcasts where people do mess up.

00;19;29;26 - 00;19;56;03
Speaker 1
Learn not just your if your focus is, you know, trad climbing. It's be good to learn aid climbing. It would be good to learn. You know, how do lots of different sports rescue your, you know, lots of different things that that will help that sport. Learn, learn, learn as much as you can about climbing and what you want to do.

00;19;56;05 - 00;20;02;04
Speaker 1
And it'll be easier to to get through it, if you will.

00;20;02;04 - 00;20;20;13
Speaker 1
For me, like, I, I had, a climbing accident. Have you heard about the climbing accident that I had? Yeah. And so that was like a huge wakeup call and a lesson that I survived and was able to learn from, like, was there, like a cliff for you like that where it was like, this moment was where I realized, like, how dangerous this is.

00;20;20;13 - 00;20;28;23
Speaker 1
And I need to take it a little bit more seriously or what, like what was the catalyst behind kind of like that mental switch because you said like, oh, I was brash, I was cocky, I was

00;20;30;12 - 00;21;03;11
Speaker 1
I it would have to be 1994. I went through a divorce, and I did three back to back trips that I shouldn't have done. And only one of them went really well. One of them was, series of avalanches on Mount Johannesburg on a solo attempt, that I shouldn't have been doing. And then I wanted to get back to my daughters.

00;21;03;14 - 00;21;15;18
Speaker 1
And I did. I got through the descent and the avalanches, and I got back to to my daughters. I did another trip because it was just a bad time.

00;21;15;18 - 00;21;20;07
Speaker 1
Do you. Do you mind? Do you mind kind of going into that story a little bit and kind of like going

00;21;20;07 - 00;21;29;04
Speaker 1
not not at all. I mean, I can do it all, but I, I, I was going through a divorce. My wife was seeing another man, yada yada.

00;21;29;04 - 00;21;57;15
Speaker 1
I was almost suicidal. And I grabbed the family minivan and peeled off to the North Cascades with the, you know, gear, not enough gear. That gear in the car to go do Mount Johannesburg. From Portland and the whole way up there, I remember I was trying to get a weather report on the radio, and nobody was given the any weather reports because I think if I had if I had known there was a big storm coming in, I don't think I would have gone up there.

00;21;57;18 - 00;22;18;04
Speaker 1
But I get up there and it had a cloud cover about halfway up the mountain and I thought, well, I'm not going to do it in a push. I'll just go halfway up and spend the night and see how good it is. And I did, I got halfway up, but I was a wreck from the divorce. I wasn't eating, I was overworked, I had no business being.

00;22;18;04 - 00;22;28;16
Speaker 1
I wasn't in the right mindset, so I but I did get into a cave and spent the night there, and I woke up in the morning and there was 3.5ft of snow that had fallen over night.

00;22;28;16 - 00;22;37;06
Speaker 1
And then halfway up a mile high wall, as soon as I stepped out on of the cave onto the slope, I caused an avalanche right below me.

00;22;37;09 - 00;23;03;11
Speaker 1
I went back into the cave and I'm like, okay, you've really done it this time. You've got you, you know, this is your, this is probably at the I kind of had myself, but I told myself, I'm going to go out swinging. I want to get back to my daughters of correct this mistake. If I can survive this, get, you know, get down.

00;23;03;11 - 00;23;24;15
Speaker 1
I wanted to get down. I suddenly decided I wanted to live after all this bad decisions, I started down, I got hit by an avalanche and I barely hung on. I would I would tuck my head in and the snow would build up above me and start pushing me down the hill. So I'd have to, like, clear the snow and then go back into a crouch.

00;23;24;17 - 00;23;28;18
Speaker 1
And then this went on for like a long time. Too long.

00;23;28;18 - 00;23;48;17
Speaker 1
And by then, you know, it's still like on the fence or whether I should, you know, go back to the cave by then. I'm soaked. So I have to I have to keep going down. So I make an avalanche just hit. So now's your chance. So I, I jetted down and I picked up my steam.

00;23;48;19 - 00;24;05;19
Speaker 1
And plus the snow is gone. So it's a little firmer. And I hear another one coming. And the second one I was able to get out of the gully a little bit, and it just hit me really hard on the side and kept going. And that one was even bigger. But I had crawled off to the side, got down or got onto a bigger slope.

00;24;05;19 - 00;24;29;01
Speaker 1
I heard another big one coming, so I ripped out of the gully on that. Because if you rip out of the gully, it gets into deep snow again. And then, you know, the avalanche. But I was able to get fully out of the third one and it was huge. And then just the in conclusion, it was fully epic finding my way back down this mountain without a rope.

00;24;29;03 - 00;24;45;02
Speaker 1
I got to the last Cliff band, and I was I was stuck and I couldn't tell her to go, but it had turned the rain and the snow. I had gotten down lower where there was wasn't as much snow and it washed away the snow. And I sat there long enough to wash away the snow, and I could see my old footprints in the snow.

00;24;45;02 - 00;24;55;00
Speaker 1
So I knew which way to go. And I got down and I literally kissed the ground next to the car. Just took all day to get down to. It was miserable.

00;24;55;00 - 00;25;11;15
Speaker 1
So, yeah, I had another accident not too long after that. But that one. I don't think it was much my fault as I was pushing that on a loose rock and I was on a section of rock trying to do a new route and a whole section of rock that I was standing on all around.

00;25;11;15 - 00;25;41;10
Speaker 1
It all came off, luckily I had a bolt that was way down by my back there. But that was a 60ft fall. Was project mass projectiles orbiting around, you know, and I survived that one. And end of the risk self rescued because we were 400ft up and then a big approached. So that's about all I was allowed about how much I push it.

00;25;41;16 - 00;26;07;12
Speaker 1
You get the gist. I had I had probably 5 or 6 episodes. It was a similar quality. I and I would say no from 80s to 90s. Yeah. My early climbing career was just I had great success. If you looked at my resume, it during that period, if you like superb. You you would you wouldn't see all of the epic mistakes and the and the failures.

00;26;07;12 - 00;26;27;08
Speaker 1
Yeah. But I think that you learn so much from them. Like they've really shaped me into the climber I am today. I'm super careful now and I'm super willing to turn around the bail master. I'm I still get up a lot of things. The band, if it's not fallen in the line and groovy, I'm out of here. I think I tell people that you hopefully you get to enough.

00;26;27;08 - 00;26;40;11
Speaker 1
You get to a point where you've done enough. Great climbing, where you don't have to settle for the the base climbing. You don't have to settle for that. You can go, you know, rest up and try it again. So by the time.

00;26;40;11 - 00;26;58;08
Speaker 1
like a lot of the times we kind of push ourselves into these situations. You know, each person is going to be slightly different, but when climbing, like, takes up a large portion of our self-worth, and, like, we use it to validate our ego. We use it to validate our self-worth. Like,

00;26;58;08 - 00;27;05;05
Speaker 1
do you feel like you got into a position in your climbing career where, like, it became all encompassing and like that was your source of happiness?

00;27;05;07 - 00;27;09;15
Speaker 1
Or have you always balanced your life to where you have passions in other areas?

00;27;11;17 - 00;27;43;13
Speaker 1
I've. I've been very climbing centric, from from the early ages on. I have had other balances in my life. I've, I've always had, you know, family and and my career as a high rise carpenter. I've had to dedicate a lot of resources to that. I've always been a homeowner, sometimes multiple homes. And I've always been involved in my community and teaching.

00;27;43;15 - 00;28;06;01
Speaker 1
So there's where I find my balance is just, overachieving and as much as I can and still receive it climbing to because we want or what I, I get into it, you know, watch out. I'm going to. I'm coming after it, you know, whether it's, you know, a family member that needs some help or whatever. I'll, I'll do what I can usually

00;28;06;01 - 00;28;08;09
Speaker 1
to help out.

00;28;08;16 - 00;28;36;21
Speaker 1
Yeah. I've just, in my own personal life and from people that I've talked to on the show, it, it seems like there's a, like a small group of people and climbing can be that way where it's so validating and so, fun and fulfilling that you can just like my just put everything into it. And then, you know, when you're not meeting certain milestones for yourself or something like that, it just can be, it can kind of turn into this negative input rather than like something

00;28;38;22 - 00;29;02;18
Speaker 1
Yeah. No. It's a fickle mistress. Because you're never guaranteed success or or, even satisfaction. And it's all in expectations, too, you know? What? Are you expecting to get out of it? And are you getting it? I really like the climbing movement. I like the after party feeling of success, I like projecting, I like the the stuff before the climb.

00;29;02;20 - 00;29;37;20
Speaker 1
I like going through all the details and the gear and the planning. I'm into it. I like a good challenge. And the the 3D puzzle you get with climbing, it's it's really hard to find that anywhere else and, and have it constantly be changing, and different every time. And so many different sports. I just can't think. I sometimes compared climbing to track and field, you know, because track and field is 50 different sports while so is climbing and it are super specialized and so is climbing.

00;29;37;22 - 00;30;00;20
Speaker 1
But I get satisfaction out of all of that, and, and I can get into the details about what? And I'm a week and some of them obviously, but I'm still interested and picking out the details and picking up even a new challenge I had when I hit 50 some years old. I took up indoor bouldering for the first time and I freaking love it.

00;30;00;23 - 00;30;17;18
Speaker 1
I'm obsessed with it and it's because I started watching the World Cup videos and I started visualizing myself get, you know, figuring out these puzzles. And I became hooked completely. I hooked on on indoor bouldering. I love it.

00;30;17;18 - 00;30;32;17
Speaker 1
multifaceted sport. It's like with the amount of rock in the world and the amount of climbing potential, you can have a new adventure every time you go out. And it's like, that goes for just a single discipline. And that goes to, like, every single discipline. It's just like everywhere you turn is just a new adventure.

00;30;32;19 - 00;30;32;22
Speaker 1
It's

00;30;33;23 - 00;30;50;02
Speaker 1
And types of adventure. And you can combine different adventures, too. You know, I want to get into Canyoneering pretty soon. I think it's a great thing for an old guy to do, you know, easier on your body and still adventurous and exploring.

00;30;50;02 - 00;30;52;18
Speaker 1
To the, to the topic of, of mentoring. So

00;30;52;18 - 00;30;54;10
Speaker 1
you had mentioned that

00;30;54;10 - 00;30;57;26
Speaker 1
you when you first started climbing, you like, you were the one that was going out

00;30;57;26 - 00;31;05;04
Speaker 1
were you bringing partners with you or did you have like a mentor in the very beginning that was like always taking you out and teaching you or were you that for

00;31;05;14 - 00;31;31;21
Speaker 1
I, I, I people would orbit into my mentorship like I would I would run into Alan Watts and climb with him or he's a signee. Better than me. And I was I was hungry for that. But I was young and I didn't have any resources and not particularly strong. But so I had I felt like I had to, to, like, teach my partner that I wanted.

00;31;31;21 - 00;31;33;29
Speaker 1
And I picked people that were interested. And then I take them out.

00;31;34;08 - 00;32;06;13
Speaker 1
And teach them the sport, and or people that weren't or are new to it. I'd take them to the next level. Like, I really wanted somebody reliable and stoic and you can't get great climbers that are way above your ability. It's easily. So I, I did a lot of teaching and I still do. Not a lot, but I still do an amount of teaching and mentoring, and I still get mentored, too.

00;32;06;13 - 00;32;08;19
Speaker 1
I get mentee or I'm the mentee or whatever.

00;32;08;19 - 00;32;26;00
Speaker 1
I like to go out and learn what the guides are doing. So every year I sign up for a program where I both teach and find out what the guides are doing, and the latest techniques are because an old an old person, an older person has, you know, they're set in their ways.

00;32;26;00 - 00;32;28;17
Speaker 1
And then that's definitely me.

00;32;28;17 - 00;32;34;12
Speaker 1
But I'm open. I'm open to the new.

00;32;36;09 - 00;32;59;27
Speaker 1
It's to the mountaineers. It's called Alpine Ambassadors. They take their teachers and they get they get them the latest information and hook them up with hot shot guides and have them get pushed because our teachers in the mountaineers, they'll teach, you know, ten, 12 people at a time and they won't work on their own skills as much.

00;32;59;27 - 00;33;28;29
Speaker 1
And I've done it three out of the last seven years. 3 or 4 years. And that's how I met my Wife was the first iteration of that. And then, the first day they go out with guides, the first couple days, everybody, and they're evaluated. And I'm listening to what they say because they're telling, you know, me what what the latest sort of climbing techniques are.

00;33;29;01 - 00;33;34;13
Speaker 1
And I evaluate them for myself, and I either use them or I don't.

00;33;34;13 - 00;34;01;03
Speaker 1
topic I like about guys is just because I was talking to Max Lurie about this recently. He's, alpine to the Max's Instagram. He's a guide on the East Coast. And we talking about like, partners and how it's like some people have a really hard time finding partners and finding people to climb with, and so, you know, you can resort to, partner finding on like, mountain project or Facebook groups, and it's kind of rolling the dice because you don't really know who you're going to meet.

00;34;01;03 - 00;34;20;28
Speaker 1
Like, they could be sketchy. They could say they know what they're doing, but they have absolutely no idea. And you end up on this epic. And so it's like, I think the one of the funniest thing about climbing is, is the partnerships that you, you build and like going out with friends, going out, people that you know, like having a good time and sharing that experience with people is what is part of the reason why I love climbing so much.

00;34;21;00 - 00;34;38;27
Speaker 1
And it's, it's hard when, when some people are struggling to find that. But I also think it's important to to share the narrative of like, hiring a guide, like especially in the very early stages of climbing, like one session with a guide to go out there and just teach you the basics on how to stay safe on a multi pitch scenario, or how to use trad.

00;34;39;00 - 00;34;46;08
Speaker 1
I think it's like a super, super important thing to to share with the community. Like do you, do you agree with that and, and do you have

00;34;49;08 - 00;35;15;17
Speaker 1
I. I absolutely agree with that advice for people. And it's it's really good to see, that happening in this country because this was a really diverse country, until, like, Canada started doing it and Europe's always done it, but here, I think that was one of the offshoots of, you know, our sociology, which it is very difficult to find partners.

00;35;15;20 - 00;35;44;07
Speaker 1
And that's what led me to do some of my biggest climbs alone. Solo, of course, was just the availability of people. And, I'm struggling now because I retired. I'm struggling to find midweek partners, too, because it's, it's great to have. And I've always benefited from a little group of like 5 or 6 people. And between one of them I can usually get a bite.

00;35;44;09 - 00;36;12;12
Speaker 1
And I'm getting to the age where I know more people that are retired. But the northwest concept, the concept of the northwest climber is a very fluid one. I think people move here, they get good and they move away because of our weather. So there's a lot of turnover in partners too. Especially, you know, good quality partners.

00;36;12;12 - 00;36;15;14
Speaker 1
They they moved to Colorado, they move to Utah.

00;36;15;24 - 00;36;16;17
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;36;16;20 - 00;36;33;16
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's a tough one. I think that I. I've been, you know, I don't know if it's lucky or not, but, like, I'm very much a weekend warrior, and so, I'm always like, I don't have problem finding partners. It's like, it's because I'm not really climbing that much. You know? It's like when you start climbing every day, are you trying to find partners for, like you said, midweek?

00;36;33;16 - 00;36;38;06
Speaker 1
It's like that's when it starts to get problematic or if you start climbing really hard or dangerous routes, it's like

00;36;41;01 - 00;36;42;23
Speaker 1
Absolutely.

00;36;42;23 - 00;36;44;27
Speaker 2
So why do you think that.

00;36;44;29 - 00;37;07;16
Speaker 1
American climbing culture has been adverse to guides? And I feel like they kind of get like almost the short end of the stick in terms of, like, you know, when you can. I always feel like there's this battle between, like, pro athletes and guides. I feel like there's like this internal conflict between the two of them. And I feel like it's because guides don't get as much recognition or representation in the community.

00;37;07;18 - 00;37;15;20
Speaker 1
Like you kind of alluded to that and saying that, you know, it's been new to our culture. Like, why do you think that is?

00;37;16;17 - 00;37;19;09
Speaker 1
If you've been enjoying the climbing majority, please rate.

00;37;19;09 - 00;37;20;23
Speaker 2
And review us wherever

00;37;23;20 - 00;38;03;02
Speaker 1
Well, we. We were rugged individuals. We. We were descendants from the pioneers. And they were. They were. You know, let's strap down the wagon and go kind of people. And we, you know, we had our first ascents were done by prospectors and miners and loggers. So, you know, you don't need guides for that. But. It's it's changing in America and it's becoming a more prestigious and more needed, if you will, because it's less experienced.

00;38;03;02 - 00;38;35;14
Speaker 1
People are going further than ever, from what I can tell. And if there's not this culture of doing it right and doing it safely, and being a responsible party and having a leader, I've like, I've seen a lot of trouble, come from just a vacuum of knowledge on how you know how to do things right. And a guide is not just somebody that can take you out and show you a good time.

00;38;35;14 - 00;39;10;07
Speaker 1
They can teach you. And so their role, I think is going to it's going to increase and it's going to become more prestigious. I know there's all these jokes about guides and pizza and families and whatnot, but I think that's changing. And some of my good friends are guides and they're teaching more interesting classes too, like big, well, climbing is really popular and crack climbing and trad climbing, and they teach it to mountaineers so that the mountaineers can go and teach it to, you know, the people.

00;39;10;07 - 00;39;13;24
Speaker 1
They're just coming out and paying for the little classes.

00;39;13;24 - 00;39;33;05
Speaker 1
One of the one of my early motivators was, keeping a journal. My aunt bought me one at a bookstore when I was a pre-adolescent, like, really young. When I announced to her that I was going to be a big famous climber soon she found a climbing journal and she bought it for me.

00;39;33;05 - 00;39;54;19
Speaker 1
Or maybe I found it. I don't remember, but I had this journal in my hand, and now it was up to me to go and fill the pages of the journal so that that's what started. I never kept a diary or anything like that, but I kept a climbing journal, and I recorded every climb I've ever done in the last 50 years.

00;39;54;21 - 00;40;20;29
Speaker 1
And it's been really great because I started from the very, almost the very beginning when I climbed Mount Saint Helens in 1976, was like that was the first significant climb I felt, and I kept hard journals until the computer age, and then I kept a computer journal, and I still do. And I even had a website, for a number of years, too, until I got tired of that, of doing a website.

00;40;21;02 - 00;40;43;25
Speaker 1
But it's still it's still online and it's still has, like, not my complete career, but all of the highlights of my, my career from like the very early days, to go through. And that's been a motivating thing because that led to list building in my journal, too. One of the things I had was a list of all the things I wanted to climb.

00;40;43;28 - 00;40;55;08
Speaker 1
And, that was it. Just keeping something on record has really helped me crystallize what I want to do in climbing

00;40;55;08 - 00;41;06;14
Speaker 1
But what it's done for me is since I'm getting old and I don't have a good memory, I can go back to my journal and be reminded of of details and times a year and stuff like that about the climbs.

00;41;06;16 - 00;41;26;20
Speaker 1
But the other thing it does, it shows us all the different phases I went to in my climbing career. And that's been really and I'm in different phase right now, but I wouldn't know it if I didn't look at the kind of climbs I was doing versus the kind of climbs I I'm doing now. There's remarkably different, in there, in, in a lot of ways.

00;41;26;20 - 00;41;54;04
Speaker 1
But I still chase after the big routes. But in my alpine retirement, I won't take an overnight. I won't take overnight gear as much, and I won't do alpine climbs anymore like big, risky ones. I think, there's a time and a place in a person's life for that. If they want to alpine climb. But if, you know, if you're not absolutely stoked to be there and you have everything clicking, you don't belong there.

00;41;54;07 - 00;42;15;13
Speaker 1
You absolutely don't belong up there. And that's me. Now I don't I don't belong up there. But I did have a there was a time and a place where I really, really enjoyed alpine climbing. I'm almost a prophet against alpine climbing and soloing and the likes because I've had friends die, from it. And I'm lucky I survived mine.

00;42;15;15 - 00;42;49;27
Speaker 1
So rather than being this big advocate for it, I'm like a, you know, careful kind of advocate, to take your time, survive your survive your career and be willing to come back because the those things in my journals, I've written and attempts and I've had attempts go up not as many as successes or I'd be really depressed or whatever, but attempts, I think, like we've already talked about, they'll teach you more almost than any success can sometimes.

00;42;49;29 - 00;42;51;28
Speaker 1
But the big picture.

00;42;51;28 - 00;42;55;02
Speaker 1
you, if you don't make it and there's a lesson there on why.

00;42;55;23 - 00;43;02;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Why didn't you make it? Well, let's have a look.

00;43;42;03 - 00;44;14;08
Speaker 1
The the the dossier on me would say Wayne is still really gung ho and really pushy, and. And you kind of have to pull the reins back on him is what the dossier would say on me. What I look for is my partner, you know, how how is my partner doing in that moment? Because that, I don't I'm like, I when I watched the Honnold movie and he's talked about how he's missing some part of his brain that has a fear, vaguely.

00;44;14;10 - 00;44;41;11
Speaker 1
I could see a bit of myself in that. I don't think I have enough fear often times, because I've had so much success and confidence, and I know my body and I know climbing. So if I'm scared. Oh, it's it's it's not. I can get scared, but it's not good. Like, I should leave. I personally should leave because, you know, I don't get I don't get scared enough.

00;44;41;12 - 00;45;06;03
Speaker 1
So I look at my I look to my partner. How are they doing? You know, have I am I sound I'm really good at sandbagging people. Including myself, included. So I have to keep the reins pulled back on myself, almost artificially, because, I can override, I've had bad things happen, but I tell myself it's because I did something dumb.

00;45;06;05 - 00;45;31;14
Speaker 1
So as long as I'm not doing something dumb, I don't get afraid. In the situation, if I do get, I get excited. But I'll channel that into the energy to, Sometimes I'll get out extended and I'll get afraid, and I'll use that as an energy boost to get to the top of the climb. But I don't get, like, really traumatized either.

00;45;31;17 - 00;45;40;27
Speaker 1
Typically. So, I guess I'm lucky, and I.

00;45;40;27 - 00;46;02;10
Speaker 1
some of the, the situations, like the story about the avalanche, like that could have been like a career ending, thing just mentally for somebody. So like, that was it. That was too close. I'm done. Like, I don't even need to do this anymore. So, like what? What about the sport keeps drawing you back, even though you've been, like, so close to the edge so many times?

00;46;03;15 - 00;46;32;16
Speaker 1
Well, it's it's changed for me because I don't I, I'm more attuned to the risk that I'm, I'm putting myself in than I was back then. I didn't care as much. But then about risk and and and all that, I was there for the reward and the risk was just, you know, something that happened and maybe, maybe it goes south.

00;46;32;18 - 00;46;59;05
Speaker 1
We'll get out of it. You know, somehow I always sort of carry it with me. But I don't place myself in as risky places anymore. And I think some of that is the gear is amazing. The gear is allowed me to have more confidence again. And just you, you get you also you when you get the miles in to climbing, it's more second nature.

00;46;59;08 - 00;47;20;01
Speaker 1
Time is going to catch up with you eventually. And I can feel that happening. I'm not, as you know, steady and as sure as I used to be. But if you get enough reps in with climbing, you should be able to do pretty amazing things in your life. You know, just with the repetition and getting getting good at it as you will.

00;47;20;01 - 00;47;20;18
Speaker 2
What?

00;47;20;21 - 00;47;29;26
Speaker 1
What what about the actual moment, though? Like, Like a really close call. Like what? Why was it not like, a career ending event? You know, like, in your

00;47;30;10 - 00;47;49;16
Speaker 1
Because it was my fault. That was my fault. And I did something stupid. I committed an offense against myself and I can get ups. I get upset with myself when I and I, I do it all the time. I mess up a lot often. You. I've told you about Wayne Luck. Well, it's it's it's it's not really luck.

00;47;49;16 - 00;48;13;13
Speaker 1
It's like Wayne consequences because I try to skip steps. I'm impatient. I try to get things done as efficiently as possible. And you're going to make mistakes if you're in that mindset. And if you do that climbing, you're going to make it. So I had to like I say, I pull the reins back on myself as much as I can because I am, you know, really, really driven and really motivated.

00;48;13;15 - 00;48;31;28
Speaker 1
But I also am smart enough now to know, you know, a lot more about my limitations and where I, where I can push it and where I have to back off is, man, I got I got 100 carabiners I'll leave behind before before I get injured or allow myself to get injured again if I can help it. You know,

00;48;31;28 - 00;48;46;15
Speaker 1
like you said, you're the bail. The bail master, I think that's another narrative that's important to say. It's like it's easy. It's okay to turn around and go back. You know, you don't have to. You don't have to climb until you fall. The the wanes. Look, do you want to, kind of

00;48;47;21 - 00;49;09;27
Speaker 1
Can I just tell you a story about my day real quick? I was doing some electrical work in the house, and I hit the GFCI switch, and it tripped like it's supposed to. You know, if you plug in something that's in water, it'll stop it. And it's a kitchen breaker. It stopped and all the switches on my kitchen stopped and it wouldn't turn back on.

00;49;09;29 - 00;49;32;09
Speaker 1
So I'm like, oh, darn, that turned back on. I have one, I have one out in the shed. Let's let's put a new one in. This is an old one. So I take it out and it's packed full of ants. It's completely every, every it's the ants destroy the like the electrical works and the switch. I sound like, oh, bummer.

00;49;32;11 - 00;49;55;29
Speaker 1
Whatever. So I pull it out and throw it away. Go out into the shed to get a new one out of the shed, and I get my electrical kit out and I pull out of a new GFI, and it's ants. It's packed full of ants from out in the shed, and we don't have a bag yet. A big ant problems, but those little sugar ants, for some reason, they like they like GFCI switches.

00;49;56;01 - 00;50;18;19
Speaker 1
So I had to go to the store today to get our kitchen to work again. Our kitchen outlets. I had to go to the hardware store. I usually have to work harder for what I get then, but I have done what I think is fair. But. But I think it's a product of how much I I ask of myself.

00;50;18;21 - 00;50;40;01
Speaker 1
Like I do have a big list of to do stuff, and I am trying to get it done as quickly as possible because the season's short, and time, you know, even retired. I'm really busy. So things are bound to happen if you're working, if you kind of work at a frantic pace or you're, you know, you're impatient, you can.

00;50;40;04 - 00;51;10;27
Speaker 1
Mistakes come quicker and easier. And then I also carry a certain bit of irony with, with things too, that I can't really describe, you know, a, a couple of stories. But I've just come to expect it and it's helped me to kind of just zen everything out a bit because I'm not in control of a lot of things.

00;51;10;29 - 00;51;27;19
Speaker 1
I like to think I am, but things are going to happen outside of my control. And, all I can do is kind of watch out for it and just work harder to get to get there. So I'm not afraid of working hard.

00;51;27;19 - 00;51;33;01
Speaker 1
It's, The luck. Luck is an interesting thing, and it can work for or against us.

00;51;34;09 - 00;51;43;15
Speaker 1
Do you feel like, you're like you outweigh. So how many, how many climbs have you climbed up to this point, like your your journal? Do you know the number?

00;51;43;26 - 00;52;11;05
Speaker 1
I can only estimate, but I. I'm really in a I'll take you back to my focus and that's big climbs. I, I think I just got over a thousand big climbs in my life and a big climbers. Anything over three pitches, you know, anything technical or big? I just kind of have a, AA4 on that. So I've gotten around a thousand a big climbs.

00;52;11;07 - 00;52;33;04
Speaker 1
Probably tens of thousands of regular. I've always really liked Crag and two. So I've done thousands and thousands new, tens of thousands of crag climbs and individual climbs, and I, I only just started taking them on a mountain project if I, if I had to go back and take them all and it would just take forever. But I've been really lucky to have had.

00;52;33;04 - 00;52;56;03
Speaker 1
So, you know, I'm getting now, now that I'm retired, I'm getting, you know, over 150 days a year and probably a thousand pictures a year, I guess. I don't know, I'd have to. Look, I'm just I can only estimate because of the volume. And I don't have the. I don't have the time to to to do that part of account either.

00;52;56;03 - 00;53;08;22
Speaker 1
It's it's just been it's been great to be able to do it and have the longevity.

00;53;08;24 - 00;53;15;20
Speaker 1
When I, when I was raising kids, yeah. In the early 90s, my resumé gets, shrinks down.

00;53;15;20 - 00;53;17;22
Speaker 1
what did you turn into a weekend. Weekend

00;53;17;22 - 00;53;21;09
Speaker 1
Yeah, I would get

00;53;21;09 - 00;53;45;26
Speaker 1
I would we made a deal when, when I was raising the kids. I would get one one, one weekend a month and I would get one week day a month to go crabbing. So three days a month is about what I was doing during the child rearing and sometimes not even that, you know, if responsibilities came up, I was really and I still like to think I'm a very dedicated father

00;53;46;03 - 00;53;51;29
Speaker 1
So the longevity, the amount of time you've climbed, how have you stayed alive this long?

00;53;52;27 - 00;54;15;02
Speaker 1
A good question, because I had a dangerous career too, as a high right, as a high rise carpenter. Very, very dangerous job. I survived that, I learning from mistakes and learning safety. I think what construction really went hyper safety when their insurance rates started spiking. And that rubbed off into my climbing. Because I got injured at work, too.

00;54;15;02 - 00;54;42;05
Speaker 1
I'd break a foot, cut off a finger or two, and I would, I it would, it would, it would transfer. I cut this one off with a skill saw in 80, 80 or 94, and this one got pinched off but reattached in 20 something. So yeah. And then I broke a foot in 90 something. So.

00;54;42;08 - 00;55;10;01
Speaker 1
Yeah. They suck. A little bit, like I can't get this finger into it. Then crack is easy. So I, I do a lot of adaptive, but I can still do it. And, and, and I have huge hands too, as you can tell. So, Yeah. And I don't know why I'm drawn to thin cracks. I have no business is in the thin crack business because they're so hard for me, but I love them.

00;55;10;03 - 00;55;29;07
Speaker 1
So the safety, the safety aspect really rubbed off on me, and it kept me fit to construction, kept me fit for climbing, kept me back and forth. But what I had to do is take care of myself. I had to get rest. I had to take. I had to learn how to eat. Well, take supplements, take care of myself.

00;55;29;08 - 00;55;50;19
Speaker 1
It's. There's a lot of time that we don't even think about. It takes to take care of ourselves. And we start skipping steps. You know, it's it's not good because you've got to have all. Everything's got to be operating at a high level to be successful, you know, to, to, to climb, to work every week and climb every weekend throughout the summer.

00;55;50;21 - 00;55;57;03
Speaker 1
You know, you got to be taking good care of yourself. You really do.

00;55;57;03 - 00;56;18;20
Speaker 1
I've heard people say like the there's a balance between like preparation, skill set and like just pure luck out in the mountains. It kind of seems like your Wayne's luck or the high jinks is you find yourself outside of the world of climbing. Might be a price you're paying for the luck you've received in the mountains.

00;56;18;21 - 00;56;19;13
Speaker 1
Have you ever thought about

00;56;20;22 - 00;56;39;14
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think that there is a balance to be had with the amount of success that I've had and the success that I expect. So whenever something comes up, I'm like, oh, you know why? But I can't, you know, life is going to do what it's going to do. And so much for.

00;56;43;25 - 00;56;49;25
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;56;51;08 - 00;57;14;18
Speaker 1
Now it's it goes with climbing, too, skipping steps and trying to rush things along hastily. It can lead to bad feelings with with your partners and people, too. I have to pull back by, like, my aura and everything sometimes because I'll be blaming somebody and they'll say, oh man, I know you think I'm going so slow. And I'll be like, what?

00;57;14;18 - 00;57;36;18
Speaker 1
No, I'm enjoying the view. Yeah, I don't have to lead. Take your time. We got plenty of time, I have to, I have to pull back. Like you know, all of me to to just not appear to be, you know, hyper active, if you will. So I was blessed with a lot of energy and a lot of stamina.

00;57;36;18 - 00;58;10;24
Speaker 1
And, you know, I could I was working 16 hours a day sometimes all week and then going climbing all weekend and getting rest at work the next week. I was doing amazing things when I was young, and I still have a bit of that today too. I just worked last summer full time. I know I said I was retired, I just worked all summer last year full time and built a house, an evening and and got it ready to rent by November 2nd.

00;58;10;26 - 00;58;27;24
Speaker 1
So that was that. Just so that I could, you know, all the way in, came back for an appearance and then collapsed in December. But then I went, you know, that ice climbing season, I had an amazing ice climbing season. Two.

00;58;27;26 - 00;58;28;22
Speaker 1
It is.

00;58;28;22 - 00;58;30;17
Speaker 1
to just constantly be doing things.

00;58;30;17 - 00;58;55;27
Speaker 1
I get I take every day and I, I strangle it, I, and I stomp, I get everything I can out of every day. That's how I, I, that's my philosophy on it. And that's how I've been an overachiever as long as I have, whether it's been, you know, in construction or climbing, just whatever my focus is on, I, I'm a wrestler, so I can I say I try to relax, too.

00;58;55;29 - 00;59;14;25
Speaker 1
I will add that I have to, but that's something I've had to learn. And also the demand is there because I'm getting older, so there's more demands on me to rest. So I'm definitely, my kid is helped a lot with that too. So curl up on my lap and I won't I won't bend your off, but I'll just sit there.

00;59;14;27 - 00;59;20;21
Speaker 1
Yeah that's great. Since and she's been a really good companion for our retirement.

00;59;22;19 - 00;59;39;10
Speaker 1
So with the, the the survival thing like up to this point, would you say like, like luck played a large role in your survival and, like, your long term climbing career, or was it more like your preparation and your skills on the mountain?

00;59;39;20 - 01;00;02;28
Speaker 1
A lot of it was luck, especially with the big the big traumatic accidents that happened. It was luck. I was lucky to get out of the situation I put myself in. So it's kind of. It's like I almost don't like the word luck because we're not rolling dice all the time here. We're we're cut out and we're doing something very deliberate that we, we, you know, we, we should respect a lot.

01;00;03;00 - 01;00;33;21
Speaker 1
So we're carrying some of our luck with us and, and other times, you know, there are random things that can happen, out of our control or out of our circumstances. So we have to kind of roll with our luck. But, it's not it's not something to, you know, overly prioritize preparation is is a big part of luck, because you'll be a lot more lucky if you're if you're really well prepared.

01;00;33;21 - 01;01;07;17
Speaker 1
And that's one of the things that I really, I've always sort of excelled at. And it's kept me, you know, pushing my luck. If you will, because I've thought, well, I have a plan and I'm prepared. And, you know, I oh, you know, I think I know what's coming up, and I. Yeah. I can engineer for I can engineer my best circumstance to get to the top of what I want to get to successfully and, you know, be willing to fail.

01;01;07;20 - 01;01;09;03
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah.

01;01;09;03 - 01;01;15;20
Speaker 1
That would mean. Like would it still be worth your efforts if you perished in the mountains. The kind of you process that at all.

01;01;15;20 - 01;01;40;21
Speaker 1
I tell people I'm. And this is by one of my Wayne isms, one of my Wayne quotes. I'm just, well enough known to worry about how I die. And I don't want it to be in a bathtub, falling out of a bathtub or something like something. But it probably will because of my irony. Luck. It probably will be trying to get up over a curb, and I hope that, you know, it's something I want to.

01;01;40;22 - 01;02;20;00
Speaker 1
I don't want to go out. I want to go out with an old an old age. But I could see death in the mountains. Possibly because the biggest thing I think that worries me, or I fear in the climbing world is large, loose blocks. Specifically, I've had experiences the time when they all came off. I've had other ones shift just giant when they that giants come off and we're always climbing these cracks and structures that are just there until the next earthquake, possibly, you know, especially basalt columns.

01;02;20;03 - 01;02;53;17
Speaker 1
So if, if that's what calls my number, I'll be like, of course. And that would be to me, that would be like a respectable way to kind of go out, if you will. Obviously, when in doubt, am I going to worry about how I died? But till then, I think it's been one of the the motivators for me to come back from that five, six, you know, that easy, easy route alive and careful because I that's not how I want to go, man.

01;02;53;19 - 01;03;31;16
Speaker 1
I want it to, you know, it's going to be in a blaze of glory hopefully or old age those one of those two things. But other than that, what I tell people is, man, I've had I've had like six lifetime years worth of amazing experiences all over the world. And I've had a good life. So I don't fear death as much because I've gotten so much out of it that, I'm still, you know, not trying to trying to rush the process.

01;03;31;16 - 01;03;54;17
Speaker 1
I quit smoking ten years ago. I used to smoke and chew tobacco, but I thought, man, you're going to die anyways. Why? Why hurry it? And I want to get as much. And it's 61 now, you know, maybe I got another 20. Good quality years. I want to get all I can out of that two, so I, you know, maybe after that we.

01;03;54;17 - 01;04;02;12
Speaker 1
Can you ask me again after that about the death question, but right now it's the last place I want to die.

01;04;02;12 - 01;04;27;29
Speaker 1
same. I think it's like you have to be honest with yourself in that you are putting yourself in a situation where you could die. And I think it's not smart to be ignorant or, yeah, ignorant to that fact and be like, well, it's it's impossible. Like, I won't let that happen. It's like, you know, you could and I think it's important to at least recognize that risk that you put yourself in, but also do everything in your power to not let that happen.

01;04;28;01 - 01;04;35;19
Speaker 1
And I think that recognizing the the risk of death is an important step, because it makes you take what you're doing a little bit more seriously.

01;04;35;25 - 01;04;37;12
Speaker 2
Oh, absolutely. No.

01;04;37;12 - 01;04;39;13
Speaker 1
It's, in your.

01;04;39;16 - 01;05;00;16
Speaker 2
If you have a normal climbing career, you're going to have an accident. It's. It's a game of numbers. It really is. I'm sure there's a person out there that won't. But it's really. It just comes down to the numbers. And, so every climb, every pitch is really.

01;05;00;18 - 01;05;01;23
Speaker 1
It's important.

01;05;01;26 - 01;05;13;18
Speaker 2
It's important it's not, you know, it's not. You don't wanna let your guard down because gravity is quick and it's it's it's brutal. You know, you know that. You know that too.

01;05;13;18 - 01;05;22;08
Speaker 1
The, the the veil between completely in control and the either death or serious injury is like paper thin.

01;05;22;10 - 01;05;23;16
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;05;23;16 - 01;05;24;26
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;05;24;29 - 01;05;31;22
Speaker 2
And I love, like, survival books. And a book I would recommend on the subject is,

01;05;31;25 - 01;05;34;01
Speaker 1
If,

01;05;34;04 - 01;05;43;25
Speaker 2
Blanking on the name. But the subtitle is why some people survive and some don't. Deep survival, that's what it's called. And it tells a bunch of really great stories with a.

01;05;43;26 - 01;05;44;16
Speaker 1
With.

01;05;44;19 - 01;06;05;15
Speaker 2
Kind of the backstory and the narrative. And a person like me is actually a really high demographic for accidents and rescues, because we have the narratives so well set in our heads that we're telling the story. Even if it's going south, we're still telling this confident story and where I know what I'm doing story. So it's it's things.

01;06;05;15 - 01;06;17;11
Speaker 2
It's principles like that, I think, and reading about, you know, survival and even rescue, it's going to be a it would be a big help to anybody that wants to push.

01;06;17;11 - 01;06;17;28
Speaker 1
It.

01;06;18;00 - 01;06;21;24
Speaker 2
And, come back. Okay.

01;06;21;26 - 01;06;25;09
Speaker 1
You know, learn.

01;06;25;09 - 01;06;51;10
Speaker 1
How do you feel about the topic of, like, sharing your objectives and sharing your accomplishments and being open about that in the community, both digitally and, in person? Like you, you've created this website. You've got all these lists up there. Like, have you been a very public person about, you know, sharing your objectives in your story up to this point

01;06;52;16 - 01;06;55;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. And some of it's. Yeah, some.

01;06;55;20 - 01;07;05;24
Speaker 2
Of that is from my past because we didn't have forums in my past. So if I saw somebody in a climbing parking lot to be like, oh, my gosh, did you hear that? Did you hear about this is.

01;07;05;24 - 01;07;08;19
Speaker 1
You hear about that that, you know, we got there wasn't.

01;07;08;21 - 01;07;11;07
Speaker 2
So now I can just tell.

01;07;11;07 - 01;07;13;02
Speaker 1
Everybody about.

01;07;13;02 - 01;07;52;10
Speaker 2
This amazing climb instantaneously to a large audience. I'm really excited about it. And I've always been that excited person in the parking lot that has to pull himself away from chatting with their friends about the latest things that have been going on with climbing. Because they're all I have been, you know, doing a lot of first ascents, and some of them languished for decades because I wasn't able to give them a forum, and now they're some of the most popular routes and state, routes that I did in the 80s and even earlier, mount the new routes on Mount Hood until I published the guidebook on that.

01;07;52;13 - 01;08;14;19
Speaker 2
Those routes languished in obscurity for decades. There was 14 people, 14 parties on the east face of Mount Hood last year, on the Black Spire, because it's I was able to share Mark LeClaire and his movie.

01;08;14;22 - 01;08;17;16
Speaker 1
He talks about that he.

01;08;17;18 - 01;08;19;27
Speaker 2
Right out front. He said, I'm not the kind of person that would do.

01;08;19;27 - 01;08;22;18
Speaker 1
This movie or insert.

01;08;22;20 - 01;08;39;00
Speaker 2
Media here, but people did that for me and they shared their experiences. Otherwise, I didn't even know what is happening. So you're not going to know how climbing is changing. You're not going to know what's getting done if you're not.

01;08;39;17 - 01;08;45;00
Speaker 2
Participating and reading and learning.

01;08;45;03 - 01;08;48;21
Speaker 1
It's it's an amazing.

01;08;48;23 - 01;08;57;25
Speaker 2
Very fluid sport. And it's constantly reinventing itself and and changing and expanding.

01;08;57;27 - 01;08;58;21
Speaker 1
Both.

01;08;58;24 - 01;09;08;21
Speaker 2
Publicly and specifically, you know, locally. So I think it's it's amazing that we have.

01;09;08;23 - 01;09;08;28
Speaker 1
The.

01;09;08;28 - 01;09;36;00
Speaker 2
Forums and, and, and gadgets that we can use to share. And I've always been, we had our, our, our golden era in the Cascades. Our last one was the Cascade climbers.com era, and I was a big part of that. And Michael Claire was a big part of that too. And I have a feeling, you know, his soloing and and ice climbing and I might have been an influence on him.

01;09;36;00 - 01;09;59;25
Speaker 2
I never got to meet him. But I was one of the people that was out doing big solos and new routes, during that era. And he was a kid in jeans who was posting that he fell down, that one of the gyms and a tree stopped him as a teenager. And we chuckled at him back then. But, you know, look what look what he was able to to blossom into.

01;09;59;27 - 01;10;01;08
Speaker 1
So I've.

01;10;01;08 - 01;10;18;27
Speaker 2
Always been a big sprayer and I always will be. And the haters can hate on me all they want. I'm sure I do. I'm sure I do. I'm naturally jealous, too, and it's one of my motivating. I'm competitive and I'm jealous of what you know, hotshot over there is doing to.

01;10;18;27 - 01;10;21;26
Speaker 1
what, that's what it's born of is jealousy.

01;10;21;26 - 01;10;22;16
Speaker 1
Would.

01;10;22;16 - 01;10;34;18
Speaker 2
No, I think that's a jealousy. Negative. Positive is. Oh my gosh, I want to go out and do you know something like that too? And something that's exciting and popular and and.

01;10;34;21 - 01;10;35;01
Speaker 1
It's.

01;10;35;05 - 01;10;59;23
Speaker 2
Very satisfying to have one of your old roots become very popular, if you will. And, there's a few in the Cascades now that are just getting massively hit by people, like on the tooth, or on the fang and, you know, on Dragon Tail, the this, my friend and I, there's these roots that'll, that'll pop up and some of them become massively popular.

01;10;59;25 - 01;11;29;07
Speaker 2
And that was one of my motivations when I went up to, the champions last year, I said, you know, I, I want, I want one of those roots, that gets really that's really classic and really popular. And I went and found one that I think is pretty classic. It's gotten mixed reviews, but I literally called it the song of the summer because, I've seen I'm seeing these roots that, you know, they're great climbs, too.

01;11;29;07 - 01;11;58;15
Speaker 2
I've gone I've done, done almost every one of them, and they're just amazing. But one of the cool things about climbing is, you know, we can still find more of these things, and it'd be extra satisfying if I, you know, it's able to do it myself. So that's just one of the, one of the reasons that I, I like sharing is, this for that reason, if I know what's going on.

01;11;58;15 - 01;12;18;06
Speaker 1
you know, spray or sharing their accomplishments with the world because it brings into question the motivation behind it in the first place. Right? Like, like, why are you doing it or are you doing it for yourself or are you doing it because you're looking for recognition or clout or, you know, you want other people to climb it as well.

01;12;18;06 - 01;12;29;29
Speaker 1
And so, like, have you struggled with that at all or is it just been like, which was very clear in your mind in terms of just I'm doing this because one, I love it, and two, because if other people can enjoy it too, then that's awesome.

01;12;30;13 - 01;12;32;27
Speaker 1
The that there's that.

01;12;32;29 - 01;13;00;10
Speaker 2
There's, I think, in that order. But there is a stroke to the ego that happens here to, without a doubt. And I'm. I told you, I came from a black sheep. The family. I didn't get much attention. I didn't ask for much attention, but I didn't get much attention as a kid, so, I, I probably naturally crave a bit of that, and I can't deny that it's it's who I am.

01;13;00;12 - 01;13;04;13
Speaker 2
If annoy you. I'm sorry. I'll try to tone it back.

01;13;04;15 - 01;13;05;18
Speaker 1
But if if.

01;13;05;18 - 01;13;08;17
Speaker 2
We're not honest about our motivations.

01;13;09;13 - 01;13;44;19
Speaker 2
I think we can get a little pious and. And get a little, unjustifiably cocky through reticence or through sandbagging and the like. I like to think that what I do is that of enthusiasm. Both. I love the sport. I love the movement, the motion, the logistics, the after party. I love the whole package. And for me to not be a cheerleader for it, or an advocate or a sprayer or a new route developer, I feel like I'm holding something back.

01;13;44;22 - 01;14;05;15
Speaker 2
If I'm not giving my fullest to, to to my sport, and I do have ownership of my sport because I'm like a public figure a bit. And so I take that really seriously too. And I want to be a benefit to the community. You know, I go to the festivals, I go I volunteer, you know, and city government too.

01;14;05;15 - 01;14;13;25
Speaker 2
And I'm always, you know, I always think that things can be improved if we put our heads together and act as a, you know, a body.

01;14;13;25 - 01;14;33;26
Speaker 1
So, you know, we've talked a lot about kind of like the psychology of of your climbs and, a lot of different topics. I'm curious as to maybe diving into some of, like, some specific stories, that you might have in the, in the holster. And I think that, I mean, you've got so many I don't even know where to start.

01;14;33;26 - 01;14;47;16
Speaker 1
And so I'm going to kind of lean on you here. I think that like, what are some of the main, like things that you've been proud of or the or the climbs and the stories that you feel have, have kind of, fulfilled and influenced your life the most.

01;14;48;18 - 01;14;56;21
Speaker 1
If you've been enjoying the show, please like, subscribe and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the best ways to support the show.

01;14;57;16 - 01;14;58;03
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thanks.

01;14;58;03 - 01;15;02;02
Speaker 2
You're just like. Did you get a copy of my notes? Because you're just going right through them.

01;15;02;04 - 01;15;04;09
Speaker 1
Thanks. The the biggest.

01;15;04;09 - 01;15;21;11
Speaker 2
Things that I'm the most proud of with climbing and experiences are my biggest first ascents. And that culminated with a, only a three year campaign. 3 or 4 year campaign, and the pickets, the picket range.

01;15;22;19 - 01;15;39;08
Speaker 2
And it started in 2003. I was working miserable full time hours, and I sprung for a four day weekend, and we did the Southern Pickets tours in four days. And that was Colin Haley, his first big climb in year out like that. His first grade.

01;15;39;08 - 01;15;40;07
Speaker 1
Six.

01;15;40;07 - 01;15;41;11
Speaker 1


01;15;45;29 - 01;15;52;15
Speaker 1
He's one of America's, top oh oh people. No, they're calling me.

01;15;52;17 - 01;16;18;13
Speaker 2
Okay. It's a series of 14 really rugged summits in the North Cascades, the most rugged summits. And it's like a jigsaw. You know, a jigsaw blade with 14 summits, glaciers on both sides. Really sharp summit pinnacles. Very every summits technical except for maybe one is for class. Not all the ridges had been climbed together continuously either. All the summits have been climbed, but nobody had climbed them continuous.

01;16;18;15 - 01;16;39;00
Speaker 2
And I was obsessed with that. You wouldn't believe. And I recruited Colin, even though he was 17 years old at the time. I recruited him because he was the strongest person I knew and had the enthusiasm for it, and he tried it without me. It's part of the part of that story. But he didn't make it, until he teamed up with me.

01;16;39;00 - 01;16;43;03
Speaker 2
And then we were able to successfully enter.

01;16;43;05 - 01;16;43;20
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;16;43;22 - 01;16;48;27
Speaker 2
He's competitive. It's complete with young man. Yeah, well, it's an idea.

01;16;49;00 - 01;16;51;14
Speaker 1
You know, I thought it was my idea.

01;16;51;16 - 01;16;59;19
Speaker 2
But it to him, it was just like any other. It's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. So I took his other partner and went and tried it. And they were going to try it again.

01;16;59;21 - 01;17;01;24
Speaker 1
But I said.

01;17;01;26 - 01;17;19;06
Speaker 2
No, you're coming with me. And he's like, if this is the time we're getting good weather, the snow is going to melt. You won't get enough water. This let's do this column. You have the time. He's like in high school or something, right. Trying to reason with the high schooler and he's like, okay, what can I bring? Mark, the guy I tried it with last summer.

01;17;19;11 - 01;17;43;23
Speaker 2
Absolutely. So we did. We climbed it. And they leaned on it quite a bit because I was super driven. I was really comfortable with free soloing, so I'd actually scout ahead a bit and then rope up with them if it got tough, and or volunteer to do the first ascents on things if it looked really tough and just, you know, I was Gollum and they were Frodo and Sam, that's what it felt like.

01;17;43;25 - 01;17;48;16
Speaker 2
I was obsessed with the ring and we did get to the end. We did. We did throw the ring in.

01;17;48;16 - 01;17;49;28
Speaker 1
And it it.

01;17;50;00 - 01;18;10;28
Speaker 2
It was like a highlight in my life. But that just started a quest of, like 6 or 8 routes, me routes that I did in the pickets roughly, or it seems like 6 or 8 routes. I did the northern Picket traverse. After that I tried to complete, but I couldn't do the complete. I did this first ascent of a hundred wall.

01;18;11;01 - 01;18;13;24
Speaker 1
Which gave me the vision.

01;18;13;26 - 01;18;35;23
Speaker 2
To do the the Southwest Ridge of Fury. It's also called Mango Ridge. It's the the slang name we had for it at the time. And I saw it and I was on strike at work and I'm like, Mike, we got to climb this. And he's like, oh, I've got another climb coming up. So I can't, I can't climb it right away with you, but let's do it next year or whatever.

01;18;35;23 - 01;18;57;01
Speaker 2
And I'm like, no, we got to climb this. And full circle. I went to call and Colin was famous by this time, three years later, and I went to his slide show in August on an ice climb, and I it just it it blew me away what he was doing. So I went back home and packed and went and sold it the next day.

01;18;57;08 - 01;19;05;23
Speaker 2
It in the next day it took me five days to solo. The biggest climb.

01;19;05;25 - 01;19;18;27
Speaker 2
Possibly in the lower 48 United States. Probably the possibly the biggest alpine climb bridge in the lower 48. It's called the Mango Ridge is what we nicknamed it because it was mango. It was literally mango.

01;19;18;27 - 01;19;22;01
Speaker 1
It and it's it's huge.

01;19;22;01 - 01;19;27;12
Speaker 1
you. Bring your your. You're going through, like, all these objectives really quickly. Like, like I want you to

01;19;27;12 - 01;19;28;19
Speaker 1
And the.

01;19;28;19 - 01;19;29;19
Speaker 2
Northern.

01;19;29;21 - 01;19;32;12
Speaker 1
Let me back up. But the the.

01;19;32;12 - 01;19;46;26
Speaker 2
Northern pickets was really tough because it was stormy the whole way across we were getting rain and sleet and that was I shouldn't have pushed as much as I did on that, especially at the finish. But we survived it and it was tough.

01;19;46;28 - 01;19;49;22
Speaker 1
Mango was,

01;19;49;24 - 01;19;54;11
Speaker 2
Something I almost had to remove myself from.

01;19;54;14 - 01;19;55;22
Speaker 1
Because it.

01;19;55;24 - 01;19;59;18
Speaker 2
If I had allowed myself to be.

01;19;59;20 - 01;20;00;00
Speaker 1
Big.

01;20;00;00 - 01;20;16;18
Speaker 2
Pictured with that route, there would have been overwhelming. So I had to small picture it. I had to say, well, I can get to the summit well of the East. Very well. I can go down the other side. Well, I can get on the mango ridge and I can try to climb out.

01;20;16;21 - 01;20;17;17
Speaker 1
I did.

01;20;17;20 - 01;20;23;16
Speaker 2
I was able to do it and it was really hard. Over five days.

01;20;23;16 - 01;20;27;19
Speaker 1
food. Like are you stashing water. Like how the hell are you

01;20;28;15 - 01;20;53;10
Speaker 2
I had some I had some back caches for on my way back, but I had to do this giant loop and I had to take a bivvy and I used the bivvy. On the route because it's grade six. It was 25 to 30 pitches long. It had a series of towers that required up to multiple repels to get down the other side.

01;20;53;12 - 01;21;02;28
Speaker 2
So it's ultimate in commitment and ultimate in size two. It's 4000ft tall, not counting the towers that you have to repel.

01;21;02;28 - 01;21;04;17
Speaker 1
Over and over.

01;21;04;20 - 01;21;33;08
Speaker 2
And then, the route finding was horrendous. And we talk about routes that become popular. It just starts third ascent, but its first proper ascent, the way I did it, which I stayed on the ridge. The first two parties had to go kind of around one of the crosses, because they were running low on time, or stoke for being on a ridge top for 2 or 3 days.

01;21;33;10 - 01;21;40;19
Speaker 2
In that intense of an environment. So I get the satisfaction of.

01;21;40;21 - 01;21;41;15
Speaker 1
You know.

01;21;41;17 - 01;21;57;09
Speaker 2
That over a decade later, it's now becoming more popular, if you will, because it's been climbed before now it's been climbed a second time. Property.

01;21;57;11 - 01;22;00;16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;22;00;18 - 01;22;02;21
Speaker 2
They were they were completely blown away.

01;22;02;21 - 01;22;19;23
Speaker 2
I don't know, the last, the last two guys that did it, they're literally from North Carolina and, and in with, you know, in Minnesota, they saw it years ago or found out about it years ago. And they obsessed and planned and tried it twice and got partway up.

01;22;19;23 - 01;22;28;04
Speaker 2
And they finally made it just last year. And I'm climbing with one of them. They heard a couple days because we're we're going to be friends.

01;22;28;06 - 01;22;30;01
Speaker 1
But I haven't even met her yet.

01;22;30;04 - 01;22;39;05
Speaker 2
But there are a couple of really young Stoke guys, and they made an amazing report out of it to, and they were thoroughly blown away by it, understand it.

01;22;39;05 - 01;22;39;28
Speaker 1
With.

01;22;49;09 - 01;22;53;21
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, they'll.

01;22;53;28 - 01;23;08;13
Speaker 2
That the toughest part of exploring is finding something to damn well explore. Something that hasn't been done. And to do that in this day and age, you've really got to get go out there.

01;23;08;16 - 01;23;12;16
Speaker 1
And do you know something extraordinary?

01;23;12;18 - 01;23;19;22
Speaker 2
If it's going to be, you know, worthy of the age or feature article or the alpinist magazine or something like that?

01;23;21;11 - 01;23;41;16
Speaker 2
So I and so these are really high end climbs as far as adventure and navigation and route finding, not necessarily technical difficulty. The southern biggest traverse was Tennessee, the, the northern pickets, this old school, five, seven and.

01;23;41;18 - 01;23;42;07
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;23;42;09 - 01;23;47;02
Speaker 2
And Mungo Ridge was ten a in my opinion.

01;23;47;05 - 01;23;48;20
Speaker 1
But, you know.

01;23;48;22 - 01;23;51;29
Speaker 2
Relentless, alpine environment.

01;23;52;06 - 01;24;01;23
Speaker 1
What's it like being up there by yourself for five days. Like what kind of, what kind of mental conversations are you having with yourself. Like what. What is that solo experience

01;24;02;26 - 01;24;17;19
Speaker 2
It's different. It's so different, I tell you. It's like it turns up the intensity of the experience a lot because you don't have a summit event to and steam and. Oh, mountains. And that puts crazy.

01;24;17;21 - 01;24;18;19
Speaker 1
You know.

01;24;18;21 - 01;24;20;08
Speaker 2
You don't have somebody that can help.

01;24;20;08 - 01;24;25;14
Speaker 1
You lead bail you out if you get hurt.

01;24;25;16 - 01;24;47;01
Speaker 2
That's a completely different experience. You've really got to be hyper focused on the climbing, and you've really got to enjoy climbing, because I have done some solo experiences where I'm just like, I don't want to be here. This is not fun. This is a, but if everything goes really well.

01;24;47;03 - 01;24;48;22
Speaker 1
And you make it and.

01;24;48;22 - 01;24;58;23
Speaker 2
It's groundbreaking like that, you'll get another level of satisfaction that you couldn't get with a partner. I have to say, like, you're.

01;24;58;25 - 01;24;59;01
Speaker 1
You.

01;24;59;01 - 01;25;00;20
Speaker 2
Become like this.

01;25;00;20 - 01;25;02;25
Speaker 1
Universal.

01;25;02;28 - 01;25;04;23
Speaker 2
Player figure in your mind.

01;25;04;23 - 01;25;07;14
Speaker 1
Where you've.

01;25;07;16 - 01;25;19;09
Speaker 2
You've done your your purpose, if you will, that, it's it's an amazing feeling. Like I never came back from that trip fully. I've, I always, sort of on that.

01;25;19;09 - 01;25;20;17
Speaker 1
Same trip.

01;25;20;17 - 01;25;38;06
Speaker 2
In my life. It's taught me how valuable it is to be alive in such a circumstance as luxury as we have, that I'll just. I've just forever grateful, you know, to this universe for it.

01;25;38;08 - 01;25;38;20
Speaker 1
It's.

01;25;38;22 - 01;25;42;26
Speaker 2
I feel like I'm a movie character, if you will, in a in a.

01;25;42;26 - 01;25;46;10
Speaker 1
Movie that's just great. You know.

01;25;46;12 - 01;25;54;17
Speaker 2
You get up every day and it's a new script. What's it going to be like? You know, a tragedy, a comedy, probably a little.

01;25;54;17 - 01;25;55;09
Speaker 1
Both.

01;25;55;09 - 01;25;56;09
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;25;56;12 - 01;26;07;22
Speaker 1
Now there's definitely something to putting yourself out there so far out on the edge where you come back to normal life. And it's just like yeah it's just like everything's different. You see everything through a different lens.

01;26;07;28 - 01;26;18;03
Speaker 2
So that was the phase I was the most proud of. I was also doing big new alpine routes in the Cascades. Ice climbed a winter routes and stuff like that.

01;26;18;06 - 01;26;19;11
Speaker 1
But we just don't.

01;26;19;14 - 01;26;33;21
Speaker 2
We don't seem to get the conditions anymore that we we did. We get just, like, dumped on the snow. So it's tough to even ice climb our scrappy ice around here anymore, much less get up into the mountains. But. Oh, darn. You know, we have too much snow.

01;26;33;23 - 01;26;34;13
Speaker 1
What a terrible.

01;26;34;13 - 01;26;52;25
Speaker 2
Problem. It was the drought years that were at bear. I was climbing those routes and we'd get some snow, but we'd get amazing ice. So I go up in North Cascades, and I was lucky enough to do a bunch of ice routes up there, which, you know, it's just such a rare treat.

01;26;52;27 - 01;26;53;08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;26;53;11 - 01;26;59;02
Speaker 2
Or any a sense. But yeah, I did a few really nice, first ascents in the winter.

01;26;59;05 - 01;26;59;18
Speaker 1
And,

01;26;59;18 - 01;27;01;27
Speaker 1
or any specific ice climbs that you've been super psyched

01;27;02;09 - 01;27;22;07
Speaker 2
A lot of my mount, all of my Mount Hood stuff got repeated. It's tough to repeat up here in the North Cascades, the blue moon got repeated, but not Pyramid Peak. There's the pool. Shrinks down a lot when you go into, alpine and ice are good alpine climbers. They. They're up in Canada or Montana during that.

01;27;22;07 - 01;27;28;21
Speaker 2
During that season. They're not hanging out here, you know, waiting for light conditions here.

01;27;28;21 - 01;27;31;20
Speaker 1
of routes that are super ephemeral and like might not form every

01;27;32;03 - 01;27;32;15
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;27;32;15 - 01;27;38;03
Speaker 2
That to a few of them are a few of them are regular.

01;27;38;06 - 01;27;41;21
Speaker 1
But, you know, they get buried.

01;27;41;24 - 01;28;04;05
Speaker 2
They'll get the approaches, they'll get buried with snow pretty quick. And we don't have this amazing snowpack here. It's solid or nothing. We don't have bad avalanche conditions a lot, but we get bad snow conditions or just bad stoked because winters are long and dark and wet. Here. And to pull yourself out and you'll have to wait like a week.

01;28;04;05 - 01;28;25;09
Speaker 2
You have to have like a week of good weather conditions here. So in that you're just sitting there waiting for it for a week of nice days and trying to get something done, maybe before it turns bad again. It's just it's not a good formula for an aspiring alpine climber winter climber to live here during the winter.

01;28;25;11 - 01;28;33;12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;28;33;15 - 01;28;39;19
Speaker 2
Yeah. The song of the summer. Yeah. I that took four trips up there.

01;28;41;00 - 01;28;42;20
Speaker 2
I'd. My wife was on two of them.

01;28;42;20 - 01;28;46;03
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, it was super cold. Involve her?

01;28;46;03 - 01;28;49;21
Speaker 1
about that objective and, like what? What was that like? What was the vision? How was the

01;28;50;07 - 01;29;12;11
Speaker 2
I was climbing drag and tell with my wife on the, the song of the summer route last year, which is also this year. It's really popular. It's called this. My friend and I just took a I saw this pinnacle to the left. I'm like, whoa, look at that. I took a picture of it and I months later, I was scrolling and I was like, I wonder if there's a new route to be done on that ridge.

01;29;12;13 - 01;29;19;11
Speaker 2
And I it planted a bug in my in my brain. And I swear, I look through the Bethy guide and I found out it was Jabberwocky.

01;29;19;11 - 01;29;20;21
Speaker 1
Tower.

01;29;20;24 - 01;29;50;25
Speaker 2
And there was two routes on it that the short side of the pinnacle. Nobody had climbed this amazing spur that's now called the Southwest Spur. And so I went up. There was one of my teenage friends that I teach, through the mountaineers, Activity Club, which is, teens, 13 to 18. I usually teach them, some skills every year, whether it's rock or alpine or we did an ice climbing class with them last year, and they got to ice climb a couple of times.

01;29;50;25 - 01;30;16;20
Speaker 2
It was really fun. And those kids are taken off, but I grabbed my best 18 year old that I could recruit because he was off from school. I wouldn't go to the enchantments during the weekend because it's just too crazy. We're going to be trundling and drilling him. We don't want to freak out the hikers. So we went up a midweek and cut a trail through the brush and got two pitches up and decided, hey, this is a this is a good looking rally and it doesn't look like anybody is bent.

01;30;16;20 - 01;30;17;14
Speaker 1
On it.

01;30;17;17 - 01;30;42;03
Speaker 2
Because we're trundling and it's brushing moss a little bit. So we left our gear up there and, I left my gear up there and we came back. Sam, the young guy came back with me two more times, and he, was instrumental, very instrumental in getting us up that route from the first pitch. I'm leading up and I'm get up to these blocks and I'm like, this is a no go.

01;30;42;06 - 01;31;03;08
Speaker 2
I'm coming back down. And he's like, Wayne, what about stepping to the right? There's a crack over there. And I'm like, really? And sure enough, I go over there and there was a crack over there. He was really he led one of the pitches two. And he he was just really helpful and instrumental. He helped drill the bolts by hand, which took forever.

01;31;03;11 - 01;31;28;20
Speaker 2
And he was just full of stock. And on the third trip, we made it to the top and, finished all finished the seven pitches. But there was a back story here. There was another party of local people that were crisscrossing our route at the same time and doing the same pitches, and in some instances, they did the first ascent of at least two of our pitches, doing their own route.

01;31;28;22 - 01;31;37;12
Speaker 2
The first and the last pitch. And all of the rest of it was in between. I'm pretty sure it was my our particular new route, if you will, for our.

01;31;37;12 - 01;31;39;02
Speaker 1
Team.

01;31;39;04 - 01;32;03;00
Speaker 2
So I went up there with my wife, and Sam is a team of three twice because we needed two ropes. We needed the scrubbing and the drilling people and the hauling and all the shenanigans. The pitons and stuff that you need to do a big new route like that. And we finished it right before the end of the summer, but it did see a couple of, ascents after that.

01;32;03;03 - 01;32;20;19
Speaker 2
To mixed reviews. It's, you know, it's expectations. I came back and I said, this is the most amazing climb in the world. And everybody, you know, people said, okay, maybe it's not. So I went back and I toned down my spray about it, but I still it's it's still a fantastic route.

01;32;20;21 - 01;32;23;24
Speaker 1
Ten see,

01;32;23;27 - 01;32;39;26
Speaker 2
It's it's most of the pictures are 510. And they're, they're not really long crosses. It's got several really just incredible pitches on it. And it's a ridge at times. It's a knife edge exposure and both sides it's, it's.

01;32;39;26 - 01;32;41;06
Speaker 1
It's, it's.

01;32;41;08 - 01;33;08;10
Speaker 2
It's the perfect like I did to two other new routes in the enchantments that are now really popular, Dragons of Eden and Dragon Tail and Solid Gold and Prospect Peak super popular routes. Now, that they've been exposed. But I won't have to wait 20 years for this drought to get popular, because I think it's with the ease of approach and ease of descent and fun, the adventure that it packs.

01;33;08;12 - 01;33;09;06
Speaker 2
I think it's going to.

01;33;09;06 - 01;33;10;13
Speaker 1
Be right.

01;33;10;13 - 01;33;18;08
Speaker 2
Up there in popularity with, you know, these other song of the summer routes I call them someday.

01;33;18;11 - 01;33;20;24
Speaker 1
And this.

01;33;20;26 - 01;33;35;04
Speaker 2
Yeah, I've been doing them at index, which is my favorite place to climb to for rock climbing. I started doing new routes there and those have been getting good reviews here. But yeah, index is an incredible place to climb granite.

01;33;35;04 - 01;33;43;17
Speaker 1
those people that were on the route crisscrossing you like were they. Did you get there and they were already having started climbing or did they like see you guys. And then they're like okay we're going to do our

01;33;44;07 - 01;34;01;17
Speaker 2
Now, we were staggered. We were staggered in our trips. So they were there. They were there first, then we came along. Then they came along again. And the only reason we knew something was up was, they took our bail beta off of our first anchor.

01;34;01;19 - 01;34;02;08
Speaker 1
So he's somebody.

01;34;02;08 - 01;34;20;00
Speaker 2
Somebody's been out there like, oh, my God, what's going on? So I went back and into town later on after that trip. On our second trip, and I got a text from my friend who lives over there was a like a connecting person, and he got a text from another person that said, hey.

01;34;20;00 - 01;34;21;00
Speaker 1
Who's.

01;34;21;03 - 01;34;50;19
Speaker 2
Is this? Your your friend Wayne's work question mark. And that was the other party that we connected. So we actually connected connected at this point, before I even finished the route, on the second trip, I found out about these guys when they found out about me, and we compared notes and pictures and I drew things on pictures and I went, I also went back and finished the route, and I knew that they had done the very last pitch that I wanted to do and the very first pitch and part of the fourth.

01;34;50;22 - 01;35;09;16
Speaker 2
So I connected my pitches right on the ridge, mostly in a really nice fashion. They were zigzagging more and crisscrossing the ridge more, whereas I had this philosophy of, hey, if there's a good pitch on the ridge, that's where I want to be. And it worked out. It was a little competitive. Like they also.

01;35;09;18 - 01;35;12;23
Speaker 1
Somebody took off the.

01;35;12;26 - 01;35;15;08
Speaker 2
The are another locking carabiner from our summit.

01;35;15;08 - 01;35;17;17
Speaker 1
Repel two.

01;35;17;19 - 01;35;36;10
Speaker 2
And they were also repelling off a dead trees. And I went and cut that webbing off and I put a proper repel station on the summit. I'm going to go back and put a substation hat that's literally had a 50 meter repel off the summit right now. No other option for me. I'm not going to repel off a dead tree.

01;35;36;12 - 01;36;00;15
Speaker 2
So there was this back and forth with these guys, you know, with them. They published something on Mountain Project, but very little on their efforts up there. And I kind of stole the thunder, if you will, with my wisdom. Straight on. I was more vocal, and I also put bolted anchors in where it needed to be bolted anchors.

01;36;00;15 - 01;36;13;06
Speaker 2
And they weren't going to do they, they weren't willing to do that. I took the ridgeline. I took a stance on these awful repels that they were repelling off of and installed proper repels and cut to cut loose the old.

01;36;13;06 - 01;36;14;11
Speaker 1
Ones.

01;36;14;13 - 01;36;24;28
Speaker 2
And threw them away. I gave them to AC because they're trying to make a case now for bolted anchors in the wilderness because of the legislations threatening, and there's a lot of pressure on.

01;36;25;02 - 01;36;30;06
Speaker 1
Here and so on. Yeah.

01;36;30;08 - 01;36;37;26
Speaker 2
Ben Bolts, but also there's wilderness areas. You have to handle that. They want to do that. There's legislation to do away of permanent installations.

01;36;38;03 - 01;36;40;27
Speaker 1
And why? Like, what's the what's the purpose behind

01;36;41;11 - 01;36;53;16
Speaker 2
It's to have an ideal and that's all we have anyways, isn't ideal. And I get I actually am a big advocate for wilderness and pristine areas, and it does it. A little bit of.

01;36;53;16 - 01;36;55;23
Speaker 1
Me is pained.

01;36;55;26 - 01;37;22;07
Speaker 2
That the only way I can put up a good quality route like this is to drill, is to drill. It does pay me that. I'd love to have it to be just this amazing, super classic that doesn't have any bolts, but it didn't work out that way. And I put safety first. And if I'm going to put my name on a route nowadays, it's going to be it's going to be overdone because I used to put up really crappy routes when I lived in Portland and Oregon, and I got a bad reputation for that.

01;37;22;10 - 01;37;31;13
Speaker 2
And I know I the pendulum swung the other way and now I'm over. I'm over gearing and over drilling, if you will.

01;37;31;16 - 01;37;35;08
Speaker 1
Possible. Bleeding a fixed and.

01;37;35;08 - 01;37;41;06
Speaker 2
Instead of a bolt running it out off of a small stopper instead of a bolt.

01;37;41;08 - 01;37;42;04
Speaker 1
And.

01;37;42;06 - 01;37;46;20
Speaker 2
Putting a tree around the sling instead of at the top for a instead of.

01;37;46;23 - 01;37;47;14
Speaker 1
Just.

01;37;47;17 - 01;38;00;14
Speaker 2
And not cleaning it up super well. I was about volume back then rather than quality, and my my focus has shifted a lot, and I'm more concerned.

01;38;00;16 - 01;38;01;11
Speaker 1
With.

01;38;01;13 - 01;38;12;07
Speaker 2
How I'm viewed as a public figure too, and putting my name on a route. It's it kind of it's a can. There's some expectations now.

01;38;12;07 - 01;38;31;08
Speaker 1
you're putting up a route and then you're also quote unquote spraying about it. I mean I would think that the main purpose of the spray is so that other people go to climate. Right. And if you're if you're posting about it and it's like this thing that's like super risky and like, doesn't have good anchors and then it's like, well, okay, well why are you really spraying about it now?

01;38;31;08 - 01;38;35;29
Speaker 1
Like, is it are you trying to get other people to climb it, or are you just trying to toot your own horn that you did something cool?

01;38;36;10 - 01;38;53;16
Speaker 2
No, that's really that's a good point. I don't want anybody to get hurt on my routes. There's a route that a friend of mine did recently and not recently, but it's. It's had a lot of accidents on it. And even a recent one.

01;38;53;19 - 01;38;56;03
Speaker 1
And I think he's.

01;38;56;05 - 01;39;00;08
Speaker 2
He almost wishes he hadn't done the route now because there's been rescues and stuff.

01;39;00;10 - 01;39;02;13
Speaker 1
On.

01;39;02;16 - 01;39;35;13
Speaker 2
But it's really popular because it's a sport route. And I think the only reason people get in accidents is because of that. It's it's a multipage sport route, and there's so much demand for that that they'll go and push this traversing overhang that they shouldn't be falling off of. And, so I don't I've, I done the thing that I'll touch on is I recently helped and it was the driving force behind a major multi crag development for dry tooling.

01;39;35;16 - 01;39;39;13
Speaker 2
And we needed that here in Seattle really bad. It's called Wayne's World.

01;39;39;15 - 01;39;40;22
Speaker 1
But they named it.

01;39;40;24 - 01;40;01;20
Speaker 2
But I and it's spikes and it's long pitches and people get that can hit the ground with rope stretch and get poke. I don't I don't want anybody to ever get hurt it when somebody get hurt at Wayne's World some day. In fact, I've seen some comments online the and then you believe it may have already happened, but I don't want it to be because I underequipped or didn't tell people that.

01;40;01;20 - 01;40;07;05
Speaker 1
With orange repo, it's all bolts. It's all bolts and it's.

01;40;07;10 - 01;40;25;07
Speaker 2
It's spaced nicely and it's all top rope access to really well two. But you can still with top rope you can get enhanced rope stretch that way too. And that's the big danger dry towing is you can pop off anywhere. If you pop off and close to the ground, you're going to hit it, if you're not careful.

01;40;25;09 - 01;40;32;09
Speaker 2
So I have like I say, if I attach my name to it, it's going to it's going to darn well be safe as possible.

01;40;32;09 - 01;40;33;04
Speaker 2
That's cool.

01;40;33;06 - 01;40;53;10
Speaker 1
That's awesome. Right. Dry telling us. I mean, at least in the very tiny experience that I've had with it in my life, it's like, especially down here, like in, southern Colorado. Or maybe I just don't know, but it seems like kind of hard to find places to practice doing that. And it's also like, you don't want to go and fuck up a crag with your tools and, like, totally scratch it out.

01;40;53;10 - 01;41;01;29
Speaker 1
So you got to pick the. It's like, I always feel kind of bad for dry tillers because you got to pick the shittiest Chelsea's crag ever. And it's like, okay though that's for the dry toothless,

01;41;03;06 - 01;41;04;05
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;41;04;07 - 01;41;26;28
Speaker 2
We got lucky because our crag is not that crazy. But it doesn't free climb. Well, and so it's got the. And it's got natural little triangle pickles everywhere. And it's challenging. Like, it's not the same repetitive motion. Like you got to flip and twirl and every route has, like, this puzzle to solve. And you almost have to memorize them to do them successfully.

01;41;27;01 - 01;41;45;17
Speaker 2
So it's a fantastic of course, anybody that that has a crag named after him, I would say they're going to say it's fantastic, but we've got 50 routes out there now. And look at the stars that people put on Mountain Project. They're all three and four star routes. And we needed that here in Seattle because.

01;41;45;19 - 01;41;47;07
Speaker 1
It's wet here.

01;41;47;09 - 01;42;07;19
Speaker 2
And if we don't have enough good outdoor activity that we can do in, it's wet. We put the tarps up and we got a town out there getting ready for ice climbing season. And, and it's it's really brought the community up of ice climbers. We're now producing. We've always been producing good climbers, but they have a place to train here locally now.

01;42;07;21 - 01;42;17;29
Speaker 2
And some of the some of the teenage kids that I've been teaching, and they're always out there and they're getting strong and they're putting up big routes to.

01;42;18;01 - 01;42;19;10
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;42;19;10 - 01;42;25;17
Speaker 1
man. Yeah. It's really cool to to contribute and see, it benefit the community, at large. It's really

01;42;26;27 - 01;42;27;28
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thanks.

01;42;27;28 - 01;42;37;00
Speaker 1
I want to kind of start to wrap it up here. I've got, like, a couple final questions before I go into those. Do you do you feel like there's anything critical that we're

01;42;38;12 - 01;42;42;26
Speaker 1
And I've been looking at my notes and.

01;42;42;28 - 01;42;46;17
Speaker 2
I think you picked out that I'm pretty much self-taught.

01;42;46;20 - 01;42;48;12
Speaker 1
I did a.

01;42;48;15 - 01;42;55;20
Speaker 2
A bunch of adventures when I was young, like hitchhiking that were really crazy, too. And when I moved to California.

01;42;55;22 - 01;42;56;21
Speaker 1
It was with.

01;42;56;21 - 01;43;13;00
Speaker 2
My thumb and my haul bags. Something you just can't do now I. You have a car? I would check the assembly or Tahoe or back to Portland. I did a lot of that.

01;43;13;02 - 01;43;16;05
Speaker 1
And now I just wanted to share that.

01;43;16;07 - 01;43;18;24
Speaker 2
Things were so much different back then.

01;43;20;14 - 01;43;22;18
Speaker 2
And that's that's how they were different.

01;43;23;00 - 01;43;25;12
Speaker 2
Just sort of my personal philosophy.

01;43;25;28 - 01;43;28;04
Speaker 1
As you know.

01;43;28;06 - 01;43;29;24
Speaker 2
I think that we're here.

01;43;29;24 - 01;43;31;18
Speaker 2
For a number.

01;43;31;18 - 01;43;32;14
Speaker 1
Of.

01;43;32;16 - 01;43;38;08
Speaker 2
Purposes, if you will. If I can stretch that far. And one of them is to kind of

01;43;38;08 - 01;43;41;07
Speaker 2
take care of the people that are in our sphere.

01;43;41;09 - 01;43;42;29
Speaker 1
And help them.

01;43;43;01 - 01;44;15;03
Speaker 2
And make their lives better. And your life will be better, too, as a result of helping people. And you'll get what you want, especially in climbing. You can be a great soloist, but you can have much better experience. I have a partner that's not my wife, a climbing partner that I've known for 25 six years now, and we don't climb as much as we used to, but in our heyday, we were getting out every weekend together.

01;44;15;06 - 01;44;16;26
Speaker 1
And we have similar names.

01;44;16;26 - 01;44;50;12
Speaker 2
Wayne and Wayne. We just became like synonymous as a partnership and we are such good friends and climbing. And my philosophy of helping and working with people that you like and get along with has led me to these amazing climbing partnerships. And he's the best example, one of the best example. My wife's another great example of how deep a friendship you much deeper friendship you can get in climbing than you can get ordinarily.

01;44;50;15 - 01;44;55;00
Speaker 2
I think because of the depth of the experience and the intensity and getting.

01;44;55;00 - 01;44;55;27
Speaker 1
Through it and.

01;44;55;27 - 01;44;56;23
Speaker 1
it'll either.

01;44;56;29 - 01;45;27;29
Speaker 2
Help your relationship tremendously, or it can also hurt it if things go south. Because, you know, we are selfish and we do have our own agendas. I have climbs, I want to do Lane. Scott climbs. He wants to do, I tend to drive a lot. The the the pursuit. So. But I tell you, some of the best experiences have been his ideas just because I had to, you know, re retool for something that I wasn't expecting.

01;45;28;02 - 01;45;47;21
Speaker 2
And you just get to know people for better, for worse. So you get to know them better because you weaknesses will be exposed, that we can hide easier without, you know, a pursuit like this where we got to put it on the line.

01;45;47;27 - 01;46;07;07
Speaker 1
So you have been here for. You've been a climber for quite a long time, and you've been involved in the community in a way where you, I would imagine, at least in your local area where you've seen, the development of the climbing community as a whole. What are your thoughts on the climbing community as it is now?

01;46;07;07 - 01;46;10;22
Speaker 1
And like, how has it changed over it over

01;46;11;27 - 01;46;15;19
Speaker 2
Oh. Great question. There's a lot of different answers to that.

01;46;15;21 - 01;46;16;00
Speaker 1
It.

01;46;16;00 - 01;46;19;24
Speaker 2
We used to be kind of freaks,

01;46;19;26 - 01;46;20;25
Speaker 1
When?

01;46;20;27 - 01;46;25;15
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, but we used to be even more so. And we were,

01;46;27;03 - 01;46;42;09
Speaker 2
We were not, like, heroes of Yosemite Valley. We were like the dirtbags, and it used to just be this really fringe activity. It's mainstream now, and that the community is.

01;46;42;12 - 01;46;46;00
Speaker 1
So. It's so young now. It's so new.

01;46;46;02 - 01;47;17;20
Speaker 2
It's it's constantly getting refreshed with new people and almost to the point where it's driving some of the older ones out, like our enchantments that we love to climb, that we can't get there because of the hikers. Now the hikers will fill up all the parking and so the people aren't climbing in the enchantments hardly anymore. It we're we're getting to almost victim status with how popular it's it's becoming so and the community itself in in Seattle.

01;47;17;24 - 01;47;36;21
Speaker 2
I don't know if you know much about our sociology here. It's pretty it's pretty cold, if you will. So you have to you have to. Yeah. People. And it's also transient. Like people move in and out all the time. You have to make new friends. Most people in Seattle don't have a lot of friends. They have.

01;47;36;28 - 01;47;47;15
Speaker 2
So they. Climbing is a big part of that. They have to go out, have climbing partnerships to make friends because it's not an easy place to meet people or get connected with people. We're just not.

01;47;47;15 - 01;47;48;24
Speaker 1
As a.

01;47;48;26 - 01;47;57;23
Speaker 2
You'd think we would be more social with our weather, but we're really not that social. And then as far as changing, I think it's gotten to where.

01;47;57;23 - 01;47;59;06
Speaker 1
People are getting.

01;47;59;06 - 01;48;06;28
Speaker 2
So good so quick, too. There's an expectation like, I see new people out there trying five elevens. Yeah.

01;48;06;28 - 01;48;08;17
Speaker 1
And they can't.

01;48;08;20 - 01;48;19;13
Speaker 2
They can't climb them, but they don't know that. And they're not being told that you can't. So the community is really lifting, people right now, hopefully not too quickly.

01;48;19;15 - 01;48;22;29
Speaker 1
But the, the, the effect is, is.

01;48;23;02 - 01;48;46;16
Speaker 2
Is as amazing because I see, you know, really talented climbers out there at the age that I was not performing at the same level, you know, when I was at age, for a number of reasons, but there's just not there wasn't the expectation like there kind of is now. So and it's got, it's just it's growing so much right now.

01;48;46;16 - 01;49;03;04
Speaker 2
It almost feels like it's disconnecting a little bit like I go to I used to always be able to go to this crag or that and run into somebody that I know, and I think that way anymore, it just isn't,

01;49;03;06 - 01;49;07;29
Speaker 1
Yeah. Or a local scene, if you will.

01;49;08;01 - 01;49;25;24
Speaker 2
But it's not, it's not bad. We're we're a victim of our own success here. And if it is such a great sport, well, we should be able to put up with the crowds and.

01;49;25;26 - 01;49;30;03
Speaker 2
I would that's what that was going to be. My. And I'll take you places where there's nobody.

01;49;30;05 - 01;49;33;02
Speaker 1
I know where they are.

01;49;33;02 - 01;49;37;03
Speaker 1
heart of it. Right. It's like if you really want to be away from all the crowds, don't

01;49;42;05 - 01;49;59;06
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;49;59;08 - 01;50;06;22
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;50;06;24 - 01;50;07;15
Speaker 2
Agreed.

01;50;07;19 - 01;50;10;07
Speaker 1
Totally agreed.

01;50;20;23 - 01;50;23;08
Speaker 1
I it's my pet peeve.

01;50;23;08 - 01;50;30;08
Speaker 2
One of my pet peeves is this etiquette of.

01;50;30;10 - 01;51;02;05
Speaker 2
This. So aware of self-awareness of and and etiquette in general. Like hogging routes. Top roping multiple a the first pitch of a multi pitch route, stuff like that. I don't think we have like proper stewardship or we're not getting the institutional memory of kind of the crag etiquette, if you will, you know, and take dogs, for example, or take, you know, how many more laps are you guys going to be doing on this kind of a question and then being honest with me.

01;51;02;08 - 01;51;04;16
Speaker 1
You know, oh, oh, you're his.

01;51;04;16 - 01;51;11;13
Speaker 2
Girlfriend's going to do it too. Oh, okay. Well tell me, tell me that first so I can go do something else, that kind of thing.

01;51;11;13 - 01;51;17;03
Speaker 2
And so I think we're struggling in etiquette, and I think we're struggling.

01;51;17;06 - 01;51;18;19
Speaker 1
With,

01;51;18;22 - 01;51;21;22
Speaker 2
An intangible.

01;51;21;24 - 01;51;23;26
Speaker 1
Where we're getting our.

01;51;23;26 - 01;51;46;05
Speaker 2
Ability is up here and our experience is not is down here. So I think we're set up for more in that, in that in between ground is what I call accidents. And I think that we have or potential for accidents. I think that people need to spend more time learning their craft. This is a we have fun with it.

01;51;46;05 - 01;52;08;25
Speaker 2
It's a tremendously fun fought sport. But learning is really serious. The learning is really serious. The worst possible thing that I could imagine is witnessing or being part of an accident in climbing. And I of course I've been there. And of course it's I would do anything to avoid, to avoid those. And then I would want everybody else to do the same.

01;52;08;28 - 01;52;09;28
Speaker 1
Because it's a.

01;52;10;00 - 01;52;11;20
Speaker 2
It's a big imposition on.

01;52;11;25 - 01;52;13;00
Speaker 1
Everybody.

01;52;13;02 - 01;52;23;10
Speaker 2
Not just the injured person, to retool and have it become a rescue or just this bummer day because this guy broke his leg, or worse.

01;52;23;12 - 01;52;43;04
Speaker 2
So that to me, it's like, we're not I don't see a bunch of accidents. I don't get the rescue feeds or whatever either. But if there's a place that I could point that we could do better, that would be it.

01;52;43;06 - 01;52;49;15
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;52;49;15 - 01;52;55;09
Speaker 1
published about accidents every year from the American Alpine Club. And that to me, that just means that's like the scratching the

01;52;55;09 - 01;52;56;08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;52;56;15 - 01;52;58;25
Speaker 2
Those are the people that are voluntarily right in.

01;52;58;28 - 01;52;59;16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;53;08;03 - 01;53;09;10
Speaker 1
We need to pick.

01;53;09;13 - 01;53;16;15
Speaker 2
Yeah. We need to balance it out of better.

01;53;16;17 - 01;53;26;04
Speaker 2
Definitely. Good question. I'm. I'm, going to I think I'm going to keep doing it out. I didn't hear out when I was younger. And then I took like 25 years off.

01;53;26;07 - 01;53;28;04
Speaker 1
Of doing new routes.

01;53;28;06 - 01;53;50;14
Speaker 2
And now that I'm retired and I don't have to go to work every day, I still, I like I like work and boy, putting up new routes is it's a lot of work and I and it's it's neat to tackle a project and I'm a project driven person. And I tell you, after 50 years of climbing in the northwest, I've done most of the climbs I want to do in the northwest.

01;53;50;16 - 01;54;04;27
Speaker 2
So I travel a lot and I'm always willing to travel to. I haven't been in the past willing to travel to rock climb, specifically, but I am now. But I try to green things up. I'm an environmentalist.

01;54;05;00 - 01;54;06;24
Speaker 1
The future for me.

01;54;06;26 - 01;54;12;03
Speaker 2
Is going to be finding midweek partners and doing more new routes and exploring.

01;54;12;03 - 01;54;13;10
Speaker 1
More.

01;54;13;12 - 01;54;18;04
Speaker 2
Things around here and then traveling as much as I can. And then getting my wife to retirement.

01;54;18;06 - 01;54;18;19
Speaker 1
In.

01;54;18;19 - 01;54;34;14
Speaker 2
Six, seven, eight years is is another big thing. And we got our little RV trailer that we're going to pull around and join our friends that are already doing it retires. So it's, the future's really bright. If as long as, you know, like, the climate doesn't get.

01;54;34;16 - 01;54;35;22
Speaker 1
You know.

01;54;35;25 - 01;54;40;16
Speaker 2
Another level of bad quick horror and horror. Yeah.

01;54;40;21 - 01;54;44;19
Speaker 1
Which is very noticeable to, to a degree.

01;54;44;22 - 01;55;04;03
Speaker 2
But I pay big attention to the weather, being an ice climber, and they're suffering maybe even worse up north sometimes than we are down here. It's just being in the right place at the right time. We get smoke too, so we have to work around, you know, extra engineering that goes into today's big routes. Like we wanted to do a big.

01;55;04;03 - 01;55;05;02
Speaker 1
Tour.

01;55;05;04 - 01;55;08;24
Speaker 2
Through the Rockies, the Northern Rockies this year and just didn't happen.

01;55;09;15 - 01;55;10;20
Speaker 1
You know?

01;55;10;22 - 01;55;24;27
Speaker 2
So I like to think the future is bright, but it's only as bright as you know. We can be fortunate enough to have in, you know, with the future that we've got that we're looking at.

01;55;24;27 - 01;55;39;20
Speaker 1
never know what's going to happen either. It's I can feel like I mean I'm just gonna use like World War two as an example. And it's like that was back in the 40s. We haven't seen anything that's been on such a huge global scale. You know, either political or national disaster wise or

01;55;40;03 - 01;55;42;19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Never tested.

01;55;42;21 - 01;56;00;21
Speaker 2
Well, yeah. We haven't been tested as much as as World War Two since. Certainly. But I think that you know, climate change is our World War two, and we could very easily lose this war unless, you know, it's different. You know, certain things fall into place, if you will.

01;56;12;14 - 01;56;13;18
Speaker 1
I,

01;56;13;20 - 01;56;39;05
Speaker 2
I like I like to usually address and teach, if I can, young people or teachers. And I would tell them to do that too. If you learn your sport, teach your sport and teach, bring these people up and be a good example of a climber or some of their climbs and keep.

01;56;39;07 - 01;56;39;08
Speaker 1
A.

01;56;39;14 - 01;57;04;00
Speaker 2
Spear. Stewart and Ambassador pretend like you're you, you're famous and and your opinion matters. You know, even if it doesn't, you know, you don't feel that it does. It does. We all have an influence, and we can all do something to lift up our community and help people. We just have to get over, you know, this natural selfishness that we have or, you know, own it and and work with it.

01;57;04;03 - 01;57;07;26
Speaker 2
But also, you know, you can't get anything unless you give.

01;57;08;21 - 01;57;26;23
Speaker 1
That concludes today's episode. Everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. It really means a lot to me that you're here. If you like today's episode, please be sure to rate and review the show on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. This simple gesture helps the algorithm share this podcast with new listeners. Please also share this podcast with your friends.

01;57;26;26 - 01;57;52;05
Speaker 1
Word of mouth is honestly the best way to support the show. Also, if you're psyched about what we're doing here at the Climbing Majority, please reach out. DM me via Instagram or email me at the Climbing Majority podcast@gmail.com. I want to hear from you. And don't forget you can watch our full episodes on YouTube. Stay tuned for our next episode where I sit down with climbing couple Cody and Victoria to talk about their recent attempt on the Matterhorn.

01;57;52;08 - 01;58;02;19
Speaker 1
Until then, keep exploring, stay safe and as always, thanks for being a part of the climbing majority. I will see you all in two weeks.