81 | The Silent Alpinist Part I w/ Paul Ramsden

Today, I’m beyond excited to share a truly rare and special opportunity: a conversation with UK climbing legend Paul Ramsden. The Piolets d’Or—often called the Oscars of mountaineering—is the highest honor in alpine climbing, awarded to only those who demonstrate the pinnacle of style and commitment in the mountains. With past recipients like David Lama, Mick Fowler, and Hayden Kennedy, the award emphasizes ascents done in ‘alpine style’—no bolts, no portaledges, no siege tactics. Just you, your partner, and what you can carry on your back as you tackle an unclimbed wall on an unclimbed mountain. And Paul Ramsden? He holds five Piolets d’Or—the most of any climber in history.

For Paul, style isn’t just about the ethics—it’s the heart of his climbing philosophy. His unwavering commitment to ‘alpine style’ is how he authentically experiences the mountains. It’s a pure test of his ability to move efficiently, confidently, and quickly over technical terrain in extreme high-altitude environments.

What makes Paul even more unique is his aversion to the spotlight. Despite his unparalleled achievements, he has stayed largely out of the public eye. Beyond the write-ups he and his partners have contributed to the American Alpine Journal, there’s almost no available information about him. In fact, this might very well be the first time Paul has spoken openly about his life, his climbs, and his distinct approach to the climbing world. It’s truly an honor to have the chance to share his story.

This conversation is split into two parts. In Part I, we’ll get to know Paul—where he came from, what shaped him, and how he became the climber he is today. Then in Part II, we’ll dive into the specifics of each of the five individual climbs that earned him the Piolets d’Or. So, get ready for 2 and a half hours of stories, lessons, insights, and life lessons with the legendary Paul Ramsden.

----

Don’t forget to check out our full video episodes on Youtube!

The TCM movement is growing but we need your help to spread the word! Please share this podcast with your friends and family. Word of mouth is one of the best ways to support the show. If you enjoyed the show we’d appreciate it if you could rate and review us on your favorite podcatcher.

We are always looking for new guests. If you or someone you know would be a great fit for the show please don’t hesitate to reach out. You can reach us on IG or email us directly @ theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com

---

Resources

GOOGLE Paul Ramsden

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 4:06 Work & Climbing
• 7:09 A Different Generation
• 30:46 Mentorship & Risk Managment
• 51:09 The Alpine Style
• 1:29:33 Closing Words

Transcript

00;00;00;18 - 00;00;05;27
Speaker 1
Have you ever felt that most climbing media only tells stories about what's happening at the pinnacle of the sport,

00;00;05;27 - 00;00;08;24
Speaker 1
leaving the stories of everyday climbers untold?

00;00;09;04 - 00;00;14;06
Speaker 1
I'm Kyle, and I believe that there is a growing group of climbers that wants representation.

00;00;14;12 - 00;00;24;05
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.

00;00;24;07 - 00;00;28;29
Speaker 1
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.

00;00;30;07 - 00;00;36;27
Speaker 1
Welcome back everyone. It is been a while. I hope you've all been enjoying an incredible climbing season thus far.

00;00;37;12 - 00;00;50;21
Speaker 1
Personally, this past month I've had the privilege of spending some time with great friends on some classic red rock multi pitch track climbs including Cloud Tower, the original route on Rainbow Wall and most recently levitation 29 just two years ago.

00;00;50;21 - 00;01;09;09
Speaker 1
These routes felt so far out of reach, just three iconic climbs reserved for a higher class of climber. Now, having stood on top of each of them, has been deeply meaningful and has fueled my fire to not only return for the red point on each climb, but it has also sparked the dream of one day putting together the Red Rock triple.

00;01;09;12 - 00;01;28;12
Speaker 1
If there's a lesson in this experience, it's that our minds often hold us back more than the climbers themselves. The unknown breeds fear and doubt, making it easy to psych yourself out before you even try. But I've found that almost every time, the reality of a route is far less intimidating and far more achievable than what we imagine.

00;01;28;14 - 00;01;49;08
Speaker 1
Once you're there, the moves just unfold in front of you, and whether they're hard or not, the self-imposed impossibility dissolves and a new vision for what's possible emerges. You don't even have to climb it clean. Rest when you need to. Aid to the crux. If you need to, just get on the route and explore it, chances are you're more capable than you think.

00;01;49;10 - 00;02;19;29
Speaker 1
Today, I'm beyond excited to share a truly rare and special opportunity a conversation with UK climbing legend Paul Ramsden. The podcast is often called the Oscars of Mountaineering and it is the highest honor in alpine climbing, awarded to only those who demonstrate the pinnacle of style and commitment in the mountains. With past recipients like David Lama, Nik Fowler and Hayden Kennedy, the award emphasizes ascents done in an alpine style.

00;02;20;02 - 00;02;48;04
Speaker 1
No bolts, no portal ledges, no siege tactics, just you, your partner, and what you can carry on your back as you tackle an unclaimed wall on an unclaimed mountain. These are the kinds of objectives that win you the appeal door. And Paul Ramsden has five, the most of any climber in history. For Paul, style isn't just about the ethics, it's at the heart of his climbing philosophy.

00;02;48;06 - 00;03;11;04
Speaker 1
His unwavering commitment to alpine style is how he authentically expresses himself in the mountains. It's a pure test of his ability to move efficiently, confidently and quickly over technical terrain in extreme high altitude environments. What makes Paul even more unique is his aversion to the spotlight. Despite his unparalleled achievements, he has stayed largely out of the public eye.

00;03;11;06 - 00;03;29;29
Speaker 1
Beyond the write ups he and his partners have contributed to the American Alpine Journal. There's not a lot of information about him online. In fact, this very well might be the first time that Paul has spoken openly about his life, his climbs, and his distinctive approach to climbing. It's truly an honor to have a chance to share a story.

00;03;30;01 - 00;03;52;00
Speaker 1
This conversation is split into two parts. In part one will get to know Paul where he came from, what shaped him, and how he became the climber that he is today. Then in part two, we get to dive into the specifics of each of his five individual climbs that earned him the PDR. So get ready for 2.5 hours of stories, lessons, insights, and life lessons

00;03;52;00 - 00;03;55;26
Speaker 1
with the legendary Paul Ramsden.

00;04;06;08 - 00;04;35;11
Speaker 1
So, I, I work in health and safety. And in America, my job would be called an industrial hygienist. And basically, I'm involved in assessing chemical exposures and nasty, nasty exposures in the workplace. So that's my specialist role. And at the moment, I work mainly in so in the oil industry, and I'm working for BP out in Iraq.

00;04;35;13 - 00;04;57;26
Speaker 1
And I should, I should be flying to Iraq tomorrow, but it's been there. It's been postponed because of the, the, the kind of the situation between Israel and, Iran at the moment. Unfortunately, Iraq is right between Israel and Iran. So so the last time I was there, we saw missiles flying over the top. So it's it's and things are warming up out there.

00;04;57;29 - 00;05;01;13
Speaker 1
So it's probably best, best avoided for a few months.

00;05;01;13 - 00;05;10;19
Speaker 2
a smart thing to do. Are you more like, educational or are you more of a response team in terms of dealing with kind of, mistakes that have happened?

00;05;11;20 - 00;05;31;28
Speaker 1
So, these, because I've been doing this job for, like, 30 years, more, perhaps more of these days involved in training people to do my job. So I kind of manage a team and I train them and things like that. So, I do go out in the field and I'm very hands on, but, these days I'm more more of an management type.

00;05;41;12 - 00;06;03;00
Speaker 1
I'm definitely starting to think about retirement, but, it's it's not the sort of job I need to retire ethics code. So I'll just start to do less. Work less and less and get more involved in training people and less involved in managing people. So I imagine I'll keep going for quite a long time, but just working occasionally.

00;06;03;03 - 00;06;09;05
Speaker 1
I don't need to work all the time. That's that's the general plan. However, it works out to not is a different thing.

00;06;09;15 - 00;06;17;00
Speaker 2
What, what about your time in the mountains? So you feel like there's, kind of like a looming retirement, or do you plan on climbing until your last breath?

00;06;17;00 - 00;06;40;18
Speaker 1
It's. I swear, I feel most comfortable, so I don't feel I need to retire from mountains. So I guess I'll just keep climbing. But easier and less strenuous things. So it'll be something that peters out. Robin ends, I should think. And, my good friends, McPhatter and Victor soldiers, they've just climbed the new route in Pakistan, I think.

00;06;40;19 - 00;06;45;12
Speaker 1
And Victor was 74, which is quite an achievement.

00;06;45;12 - 00;06;53;29
Speaker 1
I keep well, which is impressive, but I'm not sure I want to be the mountains when I'm 74. Baxter.

00;06;54;01 - 00;07;06;20
Speaker 1
Maybe do something more pleasant. But I'm 74, actually. Yeah. Oh, no. Quite the beach. You know, I to be in the mountains, but maybe not somewhere is a stressful and arduous as Pakistan.

00;07;07;22 - 00;07;20;18
Speaker 2
fair. Well. Nice. Awesome. I think, you know, to to preface this a little bit for, for the audience here at first, I want to, you know, officially welcome you to the show. You know, welcome you to the climbing majority. I really appreciate you being here.

00;07;20;18 - 00;07;38;14
Speaker 1
it's a it's a pleasure to be here. It's good to speak to you guys. I know there's a lot of enthusiasm for climbing in America. But, it's very different from the seen in the UK and, very different from the social scene. We have been coming in and, and the European Alps.

00;07;38;16 - 00;07;41;09
Speaker 1
So it's, it is good to start people in the States.

00;07;41;09 - 00;07;52;18
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think the only exposure our our audience has, with the Himalayan climbing or climbing in the Alps so far is, our conversation with Alan Burgess. Are you are familiar with the. That man?

00;07;52;27 - 00;08;05;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, a legend, a legend, a legend since I was a youth. Basically the Burgess twins. And, it was it with the their famous for the for their tall stories.

00;08;05;13 - 00;08;19;11
Speaker 2
are. I think we we sat down for almost five hours listening, to those those tall stories. So in terms of the generational gap, like where it with their story, like, how does your story align with, on a time scale with theirs?

00;08;19;29 - 00;08;41;06
Speaker 1
Well, I'm. I guess I'm a 55 this year, so, definitely a later generation. In the sort of British mountaineering scene, I'm kind of a an an outlier on my own, to be honest. There's a really big climbing scene that are older than me. And there's definitely a big climbing scene that's younger than me.

00;08;41;09 - 00;09;08;07
Speaker 1
But. And my age, there's actually not a huge thing. It was probably a bit of a blip in the British mountaineering world. A bunch of people less climbing or a bunch of people died. And so I'm actually kind of stuck in the middle, as it were. Maybe too old, maybe to you.

00;09;08;09 - 00;09;22;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And then younger than me. There's a big gap between, you know, in the active mountaineering world and there's lots of lots of young climbers, and it's 80s, but the definitely around me, there isn't really a big scene of people.

00;09;22;17 - 00;09;30;04
Speaker 2
that? You said, there was a bit of fatalities, but I wouldn't imagine, you know, most of them died off. Is it more of like a choice thing or how did

00;09;31;13 - 00;09;50;13
Speaker 1
I think, I think around my age, a lot of people went into guiding, which wasn't really considered a big option with the older generation. So a lot of people went into guiding, and that kind of took them away from hard climbing. And then a bunch of people did die. So that kind of thins the field out a bit more.

00;09;50;15 - 00;10;08;06
Speaker 1
But, it's quite hard to put my finger on it, to be honest. But yeah, I think guiding was actually one of the things is that, unlike the Burgesses that were never considered to become a guide, but around my generation, it suddenly became a thing you could do. And I think a lot of the keen climbers moved into guiding.

00;10;08;06 - 00;10;27;27
Speaker 1
And, you know, there's a lot of good people become guides, but it's actually quite hard to maintain the sort of motivation and enthusiasm for for Himalayan climbing and hard knee rooting when you're a guide because you're in the mountains all the time. And I definitely notice those people just tend to naturally Peter off.

00;10;27;27 - 00;10;33;18
Speaker 2
Yeah. Did you ever come to a fork in your life where, like, considered going down that path with the rest of your peers?

00;10;34;09 - 00;10;35;29
Speaker 1
I did, I did when I was in

00;10;35;29 - 00;10;54;10
Speaker 1
my early 20s. I applied to be a guide and I was turned down, and, and I've obviously been bitter ever since. And, Yeah. No, but and actually, it was, it was a really great thing to happen to have been turned down by the guides. You know, one time I thought that's the way I could go forward in my life.

00;10;54;10 - 00;11;12;12
Speaker 1
But then, having seen other people who became guides, carried on to do, I think had it just been a bit of a bitter, disgruntled guide who just sheltered these clients all the time. So actually, I think, I think it was a yeah, I've been turned down by the guys, was probably the one of the best thing that ever happened to me in climbing.

00;11;15;14 - 00;11;28;02
Speaker 1
Maybe. Maybe. Yes. But okay. So yeah, so I do like making fun of guides, mainly because I'm just bitter about it.

00;11;28;05 - 00;11;50;00
Speaker 1
I, I did actually speak to some of the heroes on the committee around that time and, and apparently they didn't believe my CV, so you had to submit a CV and, because I'd done more climbing as a 20 year old, the most of the people in the guides, they didn't actually believe my CV and they'd never heard of me, because I've always been so below the radar.

00;11;50;03 - 00;11;52;21
Speaker 1
And I just heard that I didn't believe my CV.

00;11;53;07 - 00;11;57;20
Speaker 2
What is what does this TV stand for? Like, I mean, I, I know what it is, but what does it stand for?

00;11;58;13 - 00;12;25;03
Speaker 1
Well, we use effects, probably CV, curriculum vitae. It's a French phrase, but basically means your description of it is a phrase that comes from from job applications. So when you when you list all your experience for a job application, we call it a CV. As to a climbing CV is basically a list of all your all your good roots.

00;12;25;06 - 00;12;36;29
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think it was there was an element of that. But but whether that's true or not, I don't know. That's just what I heard from somebody who was on the set of, the guiding scene at the time.

00;12;40;29 - 00;13;03;11
Speaker 1
No. No, most definitely not. I'm not an athlete. I go climbing, but I think to be an athlete, you have to train in some way, don't you? But I don't I don't, do very little formal training, and. Yeah. And I just don't associate myself with the trades athlete. It's not something I relate to.

00;13;03;13 - 00;13;12;23
Speaker 1
Something I understand. I only ever use the phrase in jest.

00;13;12;26 - 00;13;28;23
Speaker 1
I'm just a climber. That's it? Yeah. I would describe myself if I'm being, pretentious. If I describe myself with an out list. But mainly I would describe as I was a climber. I'm a climber. That's how I define myself, really, as a climber.

00;13;35;25 - 00;13;57;16
Speaker 1
I, you know, when I was younger, I was kind of a climbing bum, I suppose. So, I kind of live cheaply and climbed, but, but it's always been self-funded. I've never had any money behind me. So I yeah, I've always had the job. I've always worked since, since since I was a teenager, basically.

00;13;57;18 - 00;14;18;15
Speaker 1
And, it was kind of casual to start with. And then now I describe myself as a professional, I suppose. And, I sort of decide and I'm kind of headed down the career path. Seriously, runners will probably quite late on, maybe about 30. They're probably between 20 and 30. I worked very sort of casually so I could do lots of climbing.

00;14;18;18 - 00;14;23;04
Speaker 1
But then since 30 I've been a been a professional.

00;14;23;04 - 00;14;43;07
Speaker 2
Yeah. And we've talked a lot about on the show in terms of balancing passions. And there's like a big movement especially in the younger crowd to like go to van life you know live in your van, climb all the time and live a life solely dedicated to climbing. But what we find is there's a lot of people that kind of get to this point where they realize that they want other things in their life, right?

00;14;43;07 - 00;14;55;06
Speaker 2
They have other passions to pursue. And it sounds like that's kind of, a decision you made in your 30s. You're like, you know, what were the other things outside of climbing that you, that you wanted in your life that you either you saw a passion

00;14;56;29 - 00;15;19;01
Speaker 1
So, it was. I was thinking about this really? Quite recently. I said that I did a a route with Mick Fowler, on a Chinese mountain course, which was, first kind of successful ascent together. It was the first time we want to play dope. And for me, it was kind of a a huge experience.

00;15;19;02 - 00;15;40;09
Speaker 1
I went from sort of Venus, the everyday climate. And then I had this outing with Mick where we just push the boat out so far to what seemed like a ridiculous level, you know, it's like we it's not like we went to the edge of what was possible and jumped over with both feet first. And it was a pretty mind blowing experience for me.

00;15;40;12 - 00;16;06;20
Speaker 1
And, we, you know, we were on the route for, 12 days, lost a huge amount of weight, climbed really hard, really serious climbing. And I remember getting down off it and I'd had this kind of most amazing experience in my life, and, and, you know, I realized I was good at it, you know, I realized I could do this, and I realized that, you know, I could become a professional climber.

00;16;06;20 - 00;16;27;09
Speaker 1
You know, I could get a sponsorship deals and all that kind of stuff. Become an athlete. But it's weird. I kind of realized that, you know, this is brilliant. But listen, there's more to life than this. There must be more to life than this. And, And you would never give up climbing. But I knew that for me, I needed more in my life than just being a climber.

00;16;27;12 - 00;16;46;20
Speaker 1
And, Yeah, that triggered some quite serious personal decisions, ultimately led to me getting married and having family and taking work seriously. You know, I never gave up climbing, but I decided that, I wanted more in my life than just climbing.

00;16;46;20 - 00;17;04;19
Speaker 2
it's funny that that such a pinnacle moment in your climbing career was actually the catalyst to sheer focus away from climbing. Why? Why do you think that? Like what? What about that moment made you turn your gaze somewhere else? Like, I understand the shift, but, like,

00;17;10;12 - 00;17;35;11
Speaker 1
I think, you know, gave me a huge sort of sense of achievement and satisfaction, but, you know, it wasn't 100% fulfilling, you know, realized that, you know, I did I did think that there must be more to life than just going climbing. Also the realization that, you know, when you climb roots at that standard, you know, if you keep doing it in a sustained manner, you will die.

00;17;35;14 - 00;17;57;00
Speaker 1
You know, there is no such a doubt about that. And, you know, if you spend them, you know, a lot of time climbing at that level, it becomes a numbers game. The more days you're in the mountain, the more likely you are to die. You know, it's not just a question of judgment and experience. If you're if you're in the mountains all the time, then it's got to happen.

00;17;57;03 - 00;18;20;03
Speaker 1
So I kind of decided to mentally rationalize it and not rationalize Russian. My exposure to the mountains and go, still with huge enthusiasm and motivation, but go more infrequently. And they sort of they also, you know, meant I focused, you know, much more on safety and, having a big margin of safety when it comes to climbing.

00;18;20;05 - 00;18;35;20
Speaker 1
But I realized if you just do this all the time, you know, it's just you, you know, you're going to get the job.

00;18;35;23 - 00;18;58;28
Speaker 1
Not a specific moment that the whole, you know, the whole package was, was pretty, you know, basically we had five nights hanging in a harness, so hanging it hard is quite serious series on the alpine route. You know, I remember the we climbed this ice smear and like, I think for the first two days, the ice was too thin to put on.

00;18;58;28 - 00;19;25;25
Speaker 1
Ice could stay. You had just a massive run out on thin ice, you know, hanging the whole night. Two of us, I remember, two of us. I'm going the whole nights in a harness, on like a single small rock. And so there wasn't a particular moment. I guess it was kind of a moment, but near the top, the ice was very steep, and there's like a a freestanding pillar of ice.

00;19;25;25 - 00;19;49;27
Speaker 1
So we had to get up, which, you know, you know, when you're over 6000m, nobody climbs pillars of ice and 6000m. And I remember I got up this pillar of ice. Ice was horrendous. And I got up a bit. And then when Mick was second, the pillar broke off. And, you realize, like, you know, you you were you were pushing things out a long way.

00;19;49;29 - 00;20;01;22
Speaker 1
Yeah. There was no there's no margin there. And, yeah. So there's not like a single moment, but the whole package. I just realized that this is this is serious stuff.

00;20;01;22 - 00;20;18;04
Speaker 2
And not all this funny. Like, of all the stuff I've read, it's like, mostly about the ascent. But then the descent is like. Oh, yeah, we just went down the east ridge and we did. You know, 50 AB cells on V threads and like, to me that's like just as dangerous and like, scary as it would be trying to get up the mountain as

00;20;19;10 - 00;20;38;21
Speaker 1
I can remember I remember coming down, we, came down and because quite a lot of the threads. But also it was a very rocky descent. And I remember upselling down this rock, blank rock, rock face, and I got to a ledge, at the end of the rope and of just no cracks. There was no features.

00;20;38;21 - 00;21;04;06
Speaker 1
There was nothing. And there was just this kind of piece of ice on the rock that was maybe, a meter diameter blob of ice, but it was only maybe two inches thick. And, I realized that was our only option was to drill a shallow V thread in this kind of piece of ice. That was a meter, you know, a yard across.

00;21;04;08 - 00;21;13;19
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, and only two inches thick. I remember drilling this really shallow V thread, and, and then both of us were stood on this ledge

00;21;13;19 - 00;21;33;16
Speaker 1
and, I so set off over the edge and Mick, I remember unclipped from the, the anchor because it looks so, poor. But then as I looked over and said, what are you going to do if I disappear with the ropes? And there was no other way off and I'd been looking around, do it good, Paul.

00;21;33;16 - 00;21;45;23
Speaker 1
I just clipped back into the into the anchor because he just knew if it ripped, there was nowhere else to go. So it was a.

00;21;45;25 - 00;21;48;11
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;21;48;11 - 00;21;49;16
Speaker 2
was on the same route in

00;21;50;19 - 00;21;56;23
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. That's. Keep it down. I was coming down the same route. Yeah.

00;21;56;23 - 00;22;08;07
Speaker 2
So before we dive too much into these, to these ascents, which I really, really want to get into, I still want to lay a bit of a foundation for, you know, where you came from and who in how that's led to who you are today.

00;22;08;07 - 00;22;25;12
Speaker 2
So, we've touched on a little bit, but I want to kind of dive into the details a little bit. So like, as you grew up, like, were your parents into mountaineering? Like, how was your childhood like. And like, when did you first find climbing? Were you climbing like, the gritstone cliffs that, you know, I've heard about out there?

00;22;25;12 - 00;22;28;21
Speaker 2
Like, talk to us a little bit about that. That process.

00;22;29;13 - 00;22;56;27
Speaker 1
Oh, My parents were not climbers or mountain people. But, I had an uncle, my Uncle Peter, who was a who was climber. So I kind of drew upon, stories of climbing from this kind of exciting uncle person who, climbed in the Alps and did a lot of aid climbing in the UK when when it was sort of in the 60s and and he also worked in Antarctica.

00;22;56;27 - 00;23;16;21
Speaker 1
It was a dog handler for the New Zealand Antarctic Survey. And it was just I remember all these exciting stories from my uncle. So he was a sort of a the first person who made me realize you, you had the mountains and the outdoors existed. And he always promised to take me to Scotland in the winter. And he eventually did.

00;23;16;21 - 00;23;47;03
Speaker 1
So I actually started winter mountaineering in Scotland when I was sort of 12 or 13, which is really unusual. You know, I didn't rock climb at all when I was younger. So I was actually quite the experienced winter climber before I ever even owned a pair of boots. So, so I started going out with my uncle and his friend Dawn, and we went to places like Glencoe, and I just basically learned to winter climb as a teenager.

00;23;47;05 - 00;24;04;28
Speaker 1
But it was very old fashioned, you know, it was a carpenter. And he believed in learning skills, you know, really deeply before you moved on. So I remember the first trip to Scotland. I wasn't even allowed to wear crampons, you know, I had to learn to cut steps and do all these kind of things that nobody's done since the 1950s.

00;24;05;00 - 00;24;27;27
Speaker 1
And cider. Really old fashioned apprenticeship in the mountains. And today it seems ludicrous. The idea of learning to cut steps before you're allowed to wear your first crampons, you know. So. But then it's kind of strange because in retrospect, I realized I had this amazing foundation in the mountains, which doesn't really exist anymore. People don't do things like that.

00;24;27;27 - 00;24;38;11
Speaker 1
it was all very old school when I, started climbing, and I kind of carried on like that when I was sort of 12, 13, 14, 15.

00;24;38;14 - 00;24;44;15
Speaker 1
And it wasn't till I was about 16 that I actually started the rock climbing.

00;24;44;15 - 00;25;10;01
Speaker 2
Did you did you, like. You had mentioned that it was kind of. It's something that's lost today, right? It's like kind of, a practice. It, you know, not using your crampons and kicking steps is something that's not even practice now, but is like. Did you, as your career unfolded, did you find a moments in that mentorship when you were young that, like, firmly carried over and you're like, wow, like, I have such an appreciation for the way I was brought into the sport of climbing.

00;25;11;07 - 00;25;33;14
Speaker 1
I think definitely I I've had several occasions where I've been sort of, climbing a rock pitch in the Alps and come across a small kind of ice patch and, you know, I can quickly cut steps across it, and you just realize that all those skills of the bear have been around finished. It requires more or all the different climbing skills together.

00;25;33;14 - 00;25;50;04
Speaker 1
You know, you need to bear. You need to be a rock climber. You need to be a big wall. You need to be an aid climber. You need to be a hiker, a backpacker. You need to be able to navigate in the mountains. You need to be able to do everything to be an alpinist. And I think having a really strong foundation is really important.

00;25;50;06 - 00;26;21;26
Speaker 1
And it's what keeps you alive. When things turn bad and you get bad conditions, loose rock, bad weather, all these things. And I think that's kind of one of the issues today is that a learning basics and foundation don't seem to be sort of valued, valued quite the same for everybody. You know, everyone has to progress really quickly and and progression is possible very quickly with, you know, the internet and, information.

00;26;22;03 - 00;26;42;02
Speaker 1
Everybody's sort of pushing to progress as quickly as possible. And I think taking your time and learning the skills and, you know, having a solid foundation just doesn't seem to be a fashionable thing to do anymore.

00;26;42;05 - 00;27;17;09
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, I mean, it's it sounds sort of a classic grumpy, middle aged man kind of story, but, so working quite a lot with young climbers at the moment, mentoring people who are experienced alpinist, who want to go to the Himalayan expeditions. And one thing I find is that, people have a huge amount of experience at a young age because what happens is they they hear you through various social media channels that are particular climbers in good condition, and they go and go down this route, and then they hear another routes and condition that go climb that route.

00;27;17;11 - 00;27;39;19
Speaker 1
And so quickly they get these huge kind of, as I mentioned before, the CV's, the list of things they've climbed and they've had a brilliant time and it sounds terrible, but what what people don't do these days in the same way is they don't go and find out for themselves whether there's some things in condition, they don't climb things in bad condition.

00;27;39;19 - 00;27;59;10
Speaker 1
They, they, you know, when I was a young person, for every route I ascended, I'd probably have to walk up to four different climbers to find out if they were in good condition. But now everybody knows everything's in good condition. So they go out and have these some brilliant days out. You know, they do mobile climbing than I ever dreamed of, and they climb brilliant things and have a brilliant time.

00;27;59;12 - 00;28;31;13
Speaker 1
But one thing they don't have is they don't learn to climb in, in bad weather and in bad conditions. And as a result, they don't seem to have the same kind of reserve of experience and knowledge of dealing with what to do when things go wrong. And I think that's a definite thing I've noticed in your, in younger climbers now, maybe I'm just bitter because they always have great weather forecasts and they always have a great time, and they go on holiday and do amazing climbs.

00;28;31;15 - 00;28;51;05
Speaker 1
Was I just go on holiday and it'd be raining all the time on the weather, be terrible or gone to the wrong routes. I would like around in the mist and you know, it's just different times. But a downside of the information available to people now is that they just don't climb the same way in bad conditions and bad weather, which is good.

00;28;51;08 - 00;29;06;14
Speaker 1
The problem is, is that when they're on a big Himalayan mountain and the weather does turn bad, they don't have the same kind of reserve of experience. I think the k k can account came quite naturally when I was younger.

00;29;06;14 - 00;29;26;11
Speaker 2
I think one thing that comes to mind here is, like, I would say probably when maybe this is ill founded, but not only with the access of information, but I think people are also, this day and age, pressed for time. It's like, oh, I need to make sure that this objective goes right and I make it and it's you know, I only have a small window to be able to pull this off.

00;29;26;11 - 00;29;43;04
Speaker 2
And I need to make sure everything's perfect. And we have the information to do that. Were you under similar time constraints back in the day where you're like, I have this window and I have to make this happen? And whether it's, you know, bad conditions or not, we're going to try something. Or did you have more free time to kind of, figure things out?

00;29;43;08 - 00;29;59;10
Speaker 1
I think people imagine they have less time now. I don't think they ever had to. We didn't have any more time than you know, we still had to earn the same money and do the same things. And I think sometimes that's a perception of less time. I think we were just more accepting that, you know, it took time to do things.

00;29;59;10 - 00;30;19;22
Speaker 1
And if if you had to sit around in the rain or waiting for the conditions, it was just normal. Whereas that doesn't seem to be the way anymore. And it sounds, you know, it's a great way to, you know, climbing to your hobby. Things are better now because you can climb, you can find the good forecast, and you can go to the right location for the forecast, and you can climb the routes in good condition.

00;30;19;24 - 00;30;44;03
Speaker 1
So if you sort of a a hobbyist leisure climber, times have never been too good. But I think sometimes if you're going into places where things go wrong, I think sometimes people now just don't have the same kind of reserve of experience. Then was kind of like I say, normal, when, when times were different.

00;30;44;03 - 00;31;04;00
Speaker 2
Now that makes sense. In terms of your your mentorship with your uncle, did you kind of grow out of that mentorship and, and find someone else or did you. You know, a lot of us tend to like have a mentor and then we start to kind of mentor others on our own to kind of supply our objectives that we have in our mind.

00;31;04;03 - 00;31;08;11
Speaker 2
Did it kind of evolve like that, or did you find somebody else that kind of took you under your wing?

00;31;09;02 - 00;31;25;15
Speaker 1
My uncle Peter, he was a busy man, you know, he had a business to run, and they only had so much time to take me out in the winter, and he wasn't really interested so much anymore in rock climbing and things like that. So, when I got to about 16, I just wanted to climb more.

00;31;25;21 - 00;31;46;16
Speaker 1
So, that's when I kind of reached out to local climbing clubs and things like that and, and found new people, new people who could show me what to do. And I was really lucky. I remember as a 16 year old writing to lots of local climbing clubs, and most of them wrote back and said, okay, well, contact us when you're 18.

00;31;46;19 - 00;32;15;08
Speaker 1
But there was then, but there was one club, in Bradford where I grew up, and they just said, yeah, yeah, come along a Wednesday. And and I was almost immediately adopted by this kind of group of, I guess, to be honest, middle aged men who, so this young, enthusiastic teenager, and they just took me out and, and I was adopted by a, a guy, Roger Sutcliffe, who, just basically took me away every weekend for maybe a year and a half.

00;32;15;10 - 00;32;41;06
Speaker 1
Ten we way climbing. We went caver mountaineering, went ice climbing. We just did everything. But unfortunately, when I was 1700, he died in a in a in an accident. Which was quite a big moment. You know, people die climbing, and it's one of those things that happened. But for it to happen at such a young age, for me was quite a pivotal point in my climbing career.

00;32;41;06 - 00;33;10;23
Speaker 1
I realized that, you know, this is actually a serious game and it has serious consequences. And to define it out quite early on in my career was actually really, you know, really good for me in retrospect, you know, Roger, Roger dies probably a fairly sort of simple mistake. So the thing that way, he, he was just trying to save time and, not doing things as he should have done.

00;33;10;26 - 00;33;29;21
Speaker 1
And then he died, and then, but I know I feel like I've kind of I've learned from I learned from his mistake in many ways. And then I have to think that, when, when about to take a shortcut or to do something the easy way or something is a bit too conveniently, I think about. Well, actually, Roger did this and he died.

00;33;29;23 - 00;33;41;08
Speaker 1
So it's I often say that, Roger. Anyway, Roger's death has kept me alive for a long time. Just been, you know, realizing so young that things can go wrong very quickly.

00;33;41;08 - 00;34;01;02
Speaker 2
a lesson that a lot of us have to learn the hard way. How? You know, it's interesting, you know, and I get it where you see that as kind of a weird blessing in a way, where you've learned that lesson. Unfortunately, at the cost of your mentor, how how for, like, people who are getting into climbing, maybe albinism, I guess it doesn't really matter.

00;34;01;02 - 00;34;22;15
Speaker 2
The sport of climbing is dangerous in its own right. Like how how would you advise people to learn that lesson without necessarily having someone close to them die, or that they themselves get traumatically injured? Like is, is there a way to really drive that point home and drive the severity of of how dangerous things can be without having to actually lose something?

00;34;23;29 - 00;34;26;21
Speaker 1
If you've been enjoying the climbing majority, please rate.

00;34;26;21 - 00;34;30;04
Speaker 2
And review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00;34;32;10 - 00;34;56;16
Speaker 1
I do think there is. Actually, I don't think you can experience those emotions, without actually happening. Now, I don't think there is a way of doing that. Yeah, because I give. And my climbing partner died. And then I went to the Alps, and then I was climbing with a guy, and, his his daughter died while we were there as well.

00;34;56;18 - 00;35;19;29
Speaker 1
So it was quite a lot death in my early climbing years. But then, you know, I was a teenager and as traumatic as these things are, you know, personally invincible, aren't you? So these things occurred at a time in my life where I felt, you know, it didn't put me off. You know, it didn't put me off for a second of climbing, but it did so reshape my perspective on climbing.

00;35;20;01 - 00;35;43;00
Speaker 1
But I think when you're a teenager, you you're kind of invincible, aren't you? But until you're not. But, But those experiences made me realize, kind of deep down, that I, I realized I wasn't invincible. And that I needed to be more aware and, you know, more safety conscious. She was, safety conscious.

00;35;43;00 - 00;36;07;01
Speaker 2
like there's a group of climbers out there that have yet to have something traumatic to them, or have someone kind of pass and learn this lesson and I would almost imagine it's kind of like a superpower where you are still, you know, you have that kind of childish invincibility and it gives you this like freedom and, and freedom from fear or freedom from maybe a fear that might hold you back.

00;36;07;01 - 00;36;22;24
Speaker 2
Like, do you feel like there's a superpower there? Obviously it's kind of like a ticking time bomb. And like, what are your thoughts on, you know, maybe professional climbers in that realm that, haven't really learned that lesson yet but are still like pushing the boundaries and climbing things that are just like super, super dangerous.

00;36;23;23 - 00;36;45;02
Speaker 1
I think and I think. It's a wonderful thing that kind of, invincibility, you know, youth. It's it's amazing. And it's one of the thing to experience. But I think I realized that, that you weren't quite quickly, and,

00;36;45;02 - 00;37;00;06
Speaker 1
you know, if you want to keep on, if you love the mountains, if you really love the mountains, and you really love climbing, and you want to keep turning for the rest of your life and climbing mountains for the rest of your life, you have to learn how to do it in a way that's sustainable.

00;37;00;08 - 00;37;18;03
Speaker 1
And I think a lot of people who were in the bloom of their youthful enthusiasm haven't realized that what they're doing is maybe not sustainable. And if you want to sustain it for the rest of your life, then you might have to behave in it. You know, it doesn't mean you need to give up. I'm still doing it.

00;37;18;05 - 00;37;29;16
Speaker 1
And I am ancient. And I'm still climbing. You know what I think are quite impressive routes. So I don't think you need to give up, but I think you might need to reframe your perspective a little bit.

00;37;29;16 - 00;37;47;18
Speaker 1
You know, because I've been in this game for such a long time. And so often you, you see, you know, in the media, the latest superstar who's doing the latest amazing thing and it sounds terrible, but I just know from my experience that a few years later, you're going to hear about their death.

00;37;47;21 - 00;38;06;14
Speaker 1
And and I've seen it so many times, you know, it's not even a surprise to me anymore. You know, it's almost like when I hear about some, you know, I just think, man, it's almost like you don't want to be showing interest in what they're doing because, you know, that won't be available. And, it doesn't happen to all of them, but it happens to so many, you know, especially now.

00;38;06;14 - 00;38;30;05
Speaker 1
Pianism is so unforgiving compared to other forms of climbing. Because you're climbing on a, an unstable medium, you know, like, you know, if you soloing big rock climbs, that's dangerous enough. You know, obviously Alex Honnold on free solo and all that kind of thing, but you're climbing granite, which is a very solid medium, you know. Oh, no, cap holes don't really break off.

00;38;30;08 - 00;38;45;14
Speaker 1
But when you're in the alpine mountains, it's fundamentally unstable. And you really do need to behave in a way that recognizes that. And a lot of people just don't. And a lot of people become victims of the mountains.

00;38;45;14 - 00;39;01;12
Speaker 2
and obviously this is a generalization, but would you say that a lot of the deaths that occur in the sport of albinism is due to a, unhealthy relationship with risk management, or is most of it just unlucky, like being unlucky?

00;39;01;23 - 00;39;24;21
Speaker 1
I think, I, I look at people climbing mountains that I just look at sometimes I look at people say, why did you do that route? The the perceptions of risk seem to be so far away from mine. I think some people's risk management is really poor. And often it's due to a lack of a personal experience of things going wrong.

00;39;24;23 - 00;39;49;06
Speaker 1
And, you know, sounds terrible. Luckily, I had a lot of bad experiences very early on. And that's framed my view of what is, risk in a different way. So, you know, I'm not despite its maiden. I'm, you know, I work in health and safety all the time, and risk assessment is what I did was a job.

00;39;49;08 - 00;39;58;10
Speaker 1
But I think a lot of mountaineers are not very good at risk assessment. I don't know, I don't tell, you know, why?

00;39;58;10 - 00;40;10;17
Speaker 2
lot of the risk assessment is in choosing the objective and the conditions in the first place in the preparation stage, or is it just a continual thing throughout the entire objective, where you're always assessing the risk and each decision matters?

00;40;10;27 - 00;40;22;27
Speaker 1
It's all of the above. It's, for me, it choosing objectives is massively important. You know, choosing things that are objectively safe.

00;40;22;27 - 00;40;46;12
Speaker 1
And, you know, I understand mountains are dangerous places, but I always climb, you know, if you look at all the rules applied over the years, nearly all of them must them look quite similar. And they all have certain features, you know, so I would always choose to climb a sort of, a buttress line so that, you know, loose material falls off to the sides and not down the crest.

00;40;46;15 - 00;41;08;06
Speaker 1
I climb harder routes because harder it was to say, easier than sorry, safer than easy routes. You know, I avoid snow slopes like the plague and avalanches. I avoid set ups, I avoid. But if you climb hard, steep routes, then most of the material that falls off will fall away from you to climb crests of buttresses and things fall to the side.

00;41;08;09 - 00;41;34;14
Speaker 1
If you look for the rock type. So you want something as solid and granite as possible. So we have a kind of a formula of my ideal route. And if you look at all the clients I've done over the years, most of them are very similar to that. And I just know it's the safest kind of mountain environment to be.

00;41;34;16 - 00;41;55;14
Speaker 1
Yes. Yeah. See what you want it to be. Nicely. You on a steep buttress north facing. So it's all frozen together. And. Yeah. Yeah. And no snow slopes. No south rocks. It's kind of my list of requirements.

00;41;55;16 - 00;41;59;16
Speaker 1
Thus. But that's a good photo, isn't it?

00;41;59;16 - 00;42;10;03
Speaker 2
In terms of your progression, into high alpine. So, you know, you, you started Scottish Mountaineering with your uncle. You found rock climbing. I'm assuming the next progression is into the Alps

00;42;10;10 - 00;42;32;06
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. So, when I was 17, I hitchhiked up to Germany, which is, which is quite a story in itself. Is a hitchhiking. I got. No, it was a it was amazing journey. It took me five days. I couldn't speak a word of French. I got involved in all sorts of chaos.

00;42;32;06 - 00;42;58;26
Speaker 1
I got involved in a murder at one point, which is worst crime. Yeah, yeah. First night in France, and it was noted where I was, Yeah. Yeah. Now, I was, I was, I was bivouac in the guard. This is quite a long story, actually. Puts a, I got, I got a lift and, to this village in France and the person was staying in the hotel and they said, if you come back in the morning, I'll give you a lift the following day.

00;42;58;26 - 00;43;18;06
Speaker 1
So I just walked through this village and found a, a cluster of trees and, and it which was at the bottom, Swiss Guard and I climbed over the fence and got into my bivvy bag and went to sleep and there was this there's this huge argument in the house, and there was shouting and screaming, and it got louder and louder.

00;43;18;08 - 00;43;38;13
Speaker 1
And then there's this big scream, and then there's a big band, and a gun went off. And it turned out that this woman had shot her husband. And then the police turned up and was like flashing blue lights everywhere. And I was just in my sleeping bag at the bottom of Garda and, yeah, yeah. So that was my first night in France.

00;43;38;16 - 00;43;49;16
Speaker 1
So, Yeah, my dad was right when I set off my. Does this mean watch out for the French? And he was correct. As soon as he got murdered the first day in France. Yeah,

00;43;49;16 - 00;43;51;25
Speaker 2
hide in the garden while the cops came and. Or

00;43;51;25 - 00;43;59;22
Speaker 1
Yeah. Then I was hiding behind a bush at the bottom. The garden for the whole thing.

00;43;59;24 - 00;44;15;28
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then after that, as soon as a police went, I kind of ran back to where the car was. And then I slept next to the car. Remember the person? The woman came on the hotel in the morning and said, oh, I had a wonderful night sleep, and I was good. Let's get out of here quick.

00;44;16;01 - 00;44;39;10
Speaker 1
Yeah. But yeah. So I eventually got to Chateau de lo, and then it was amazing getting to Charlotte because I, you know, I was one of those kids who read all the climbing books as a teenager. And, I knew all about Shamone before I arrived there, and it was amazing. I turned up in this place. I knew the name of all the mountains and all the routes, and it was a bit like finding my kind of new home, basically.

00;44;39;12 - 00;45;03;19
Speaker 1
So I definitely discovered myself as a teenager in Germany. And then when I got into the mountains, I realized it was a type of climbing I could do really well. You know, I could, you know, I might not be a really good climber back in time quickly. And I can climb efficiently. I can climb loose rock. And and that's the kind of skills that you need in, in that kind of environment.

00;45;03;19 - 00;45;10;12
Speaker 1
And it was, you know, alpine climbing just was it felt like home to me.

00;45;10;12 - 00;45;29;24
Speaker 2
about, like, I guess, like, what is specifically about alpine climbing? Kind of swept you off your feet. And was there, like, a specific moment up in the Alps where you were like, wow. Like, this is what I'm going to be doing for the rest of my life. Like, this is, you know, where you just became infatuated with it.

00;45;30;11 - 00;45;53;13
Speaker 1
No, no, I, I knew I was at alpine it before I went. It was a strange thing. I just it was, I just had a mental sort of connection to alpine is before I even went to the Alps. And I got there and I just knew arriving and showing it that this was the place for me. I felt comfortable there from the very first rate.

00;45;53;16 - 00;46;18;29
Speaker 1
I just loved I loved, first of all, the mountain environment, you know, it's just beautiful. But I just love the movement, the moving quickly and efficiently over mixed terrain. I just find you a joy. And, and just being there to confirm my preconceptions. So. So it wasn't like a green moment or anything like it was almost like a I knew before when.

00;46;18;29 - 00;46;26;26
Speaker 2
find the passion for albinism before you even met your uncle or he facilitated that. Or like was there a key moment where you knew.

00;46;26;26 - 00;46;50;11
Speaker 1
when I was going on the trip to, to Scotland and I was just reading all these books, always classic books, things like, Savage Arena, Shiny Mountain or. But all the Bodmin and Tusker books. But I got into reading sort of French books as well. There was one particular book, total output as in by Rennie Disposal.

00;46;50;13 - 00;47;14;15
Speaker 1
And I read that when I was about 13 and I just went, wow, this is just unbelievable. And, and then I got there and, and I was just, I just had always kind of fantasies about it before I even went. So I was, I was, I was and I just spent years just kind of living the dream that I imagined when I was probably 12 or 30.

00;47;14;15 - 00;47;27;23
Speaker 2
cool. In like with with, your, progression into the Alps. Like how how many years did you spend there before turning your eyes towards high altitude Himalayan climbing?

00;47;28;21 - 00;47;54;24
Speaker 1
So I, From about, well, maybe three summers when I was 17, 18, 19. You know, when I was 18, I did the things like the woke spur and I was 19, the North Face, the Eiger. I, I, climbed all of it. The most of the classic north faces in the Alps in my late teenage years. And, they were quite intense.

00;47;54;24 - 00;48;19;17
Speaker 1
Summers didn't go in the winter. In those days. You could do ice climbing in the summers, which is not so common now. And I just, you know, climbed a huge number of routes over, over that period of time. And then when I was, 20, I got invited on an expedition to India. And, it seemed like the next progression from, from the Alps.

00;48;19;17 - 00;48;42;27
Speaker 1
And, I went on this trip to India. I had a terrible time. And swore I would never go on an expedition ever again. I, I even I gave up climbing, actually. Yeah, it was just rubbish. It was terrible weather. I acclimatize really badly. The conditions were terrible. I got really sick. It was just a miserable kind of experience.

00;48;43;00 - 00;48;49;00
Speaker 1
And, yeah, I just decided it was rubbish.

00;48;49;02 - 00;49;17;23
Speaker 1
Probably about five years. Yeah. I got really into skiing. I worked on a ski resort for a few winters. I got a job with the British Antarctic Survey in Antarctica, so I was still in the mountains, but I kind of lost my kind of climbing mojo and didn't really go climbing at all for quite a long time.

00;49;17;26 - 00;49;43;22
Speaker 1
Basically, a friend, asked me if I want to go on an expedition to Alaska. And and that was the secret. Actually, I realized that the jump from the Alps to the Himalayas is probably too big a sensible joke, and and I them.So progressed onto a series of expeditions to expedition locations, but sort of lower altitudes.

00;49;43;26 - 00;50;25;18
Speaker 1
So places like Patagonia, Alaska, and I kind of learned my expedition skills in those kind of locations, and that worked out much better. And I realized because I've been very much a traditionalist and I took very careful progression steps through my climbing career. And that's how I was kind of how it all started when I was sort of, 1112, and I realize I've probably made too big a job, and going backwards and going to Alaska and Patagonia and learning how to be an expedition climber in that kind of environment meant that when I next went Himalayan, I have a much, much better time.

00;50;25;18 - 00;50;40;16
Speaker 2
where you're like. Okay, like, I kind of. I kind of messed up, and, like, now I'm doing these objectives, and I'm doing them in preparation to go back and, redeem myself. Or was it just, you know, you're in the moment here in Alaska, in Patagonia and enjoying it, and then it kind of evolved into going back.

00;50;41;08 - 00;51;02;22
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, I was I was enjoying the moment. But in my head, I always knew I wanted to go back to the Himalayan. But I was enjoying the moment, and and, you know, having a good time and learning my trade, basically. You know, it's, obviously you're gathered from the conversation. I'm a big believer in learning your skills and not Roshi.

00;51;02;25 - 00;51;08;05
Speaker 1
And and I believe that kind of approach to climbing is what's kept me alive early. Is.

00;51;09;13 - 00;51;22;17
Speaker 2
From from my research, it seems like you're known for your dedication to a certain level of like alpine style ethics when you, tackle your objectives. Is that true?

00;51;23;02 - 00;51;48;01
Speaker 1
Yes, yes. Summing it up, alpine style is everything and style epitomized? You know, climber without style is, you know, a meaningless activity. So I think style style is so important. And then I put my life on the line for good style, you know, there's there's no way I would carry bolt kits. You know, bolts just can't do that.

00;51;48;03 - 00;52;19;21
Speaker 1
And you have to climb alpine style. You know, I'd never break no fixed ropes. Himalayan, you know, oxygen. Yeah. To support in all this sort of stuff is just cheating, basically. And I think it should be just, you know, usually just two climbers, a rock sack each carrying all the gear, the need, starting the bolt on a mountain, climbing to the top and coming down again as minimalistic early and leaving no evidence of being there.

00;52;19;24 - 00;52;24;14
Speaker 1
That is, to me, is is the only approach to climbing mountains.

00;52;24;14 - 00;52;37;06
Speaker 2
belief start? Like, was it part of your generation, or were you an outlier? And you kind of, like, forged your own path. Like, where was the precipice for this kind of, staunch ethics that you have for yourself in your climbing?

00;52;38;12 - 00;53;07;10
Speaker 1
I guess my, my foundation was a very old school, you know, the, my approach to climbing was it's kind of older than me, if that makes sense. My, my foundations work before my time. So I, I'm very old fashioned in my approach to things. And. Yeah. And there's no, you know, some old timers were many people climbing in that kind of style, you know, me and Nicole going on expeditions, and there wasn't many other people climbing like that.

00;53;07;13 - 00;53;36;20
Speaker 1
You know, at the same time you were getting sort of, you know, Russian mountaineers coach climbing big roots and climbing in massive teams and capsule climbing and putting loads of bolts. So, so we were kind of outliers in some way. But yeah, I think climbing in that style is, is easier when you're from somewhere like the UK where, you know, ethics is just ingrained into as right from the start when we go climbing.

00;53;36;20 - 00;53;49;12
Speaker 2
briefly talked about it. So like you don't bring bolts on any of your sense and you don't do capsule style. It's just each person goes up and you're climbing and trying to find whatever goes

00;53;51;01 - 00;54;15;03
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, there's no bolts. But, you know, aid, study leads, you know, nearly always doing leads. There's no tumors, there's no hole socks, there's no Portuguese. You know, I'm not anti sort of big wall in, capsule style, but it's to me it's not it's not albinism and, it's just too much fat.

00;54;15;07 - 00;54;28;18
Speaker 1
You know, I like the simplicity of, you know, a team of two just moving simply efficiently over terrain and the city just kind of getting involved with porta ledges and things. It's it's it's big. It becomes a burden.

00;54;28;18 - 00;54;42;02
Speaker 2
you say that your style, not the alpine style, is more risky? Or would you argue that a capsule style was both laborious and kind of adds more risk because of the amount of time it takes?

00;54;43;04 - 00;55;02;18
Speaker 1
No, there's alpine ism is ultimately the the riskiest form of climbing. I should think about, solo open ism. You know, you know, as soon as you start taking bolt kits, something you can't take it a portal edge. Nearly everybody you take sports age will take a pole kicks. And as soon as you take a bolt kit, then anything is possible.

00;55;02;18 - 00;55;13;24
Speaker 1
You can hammer the mountain mates into submission that those that you got, the energy you will get to the top and that kind of guaranteed outcome. Climbing is just, you know, it's not for me.

00;55;14;16 - 00;55;26;18
Speaker 2
What have you gotten yourself into a situation where you've had to bail like super high up on a mountain. And how do you manage getting down without kind of the, the backup of the bolt. Get.

00;55;27;25 - 00;55;52;20
Speaker 1
I've descended so many mountains. And, you know, not even phases of climb. You just be forced by a fall, forced by a storm to descend the face you never seen before. And it's happened so many times. You you start to, you know, learn. You can get down mountains if you want to. But, you know, sometimes it does get quite difficult.

00;55;52;23 - 00;56;17;03
Speaker 1
Especially if you do a very sort of mixed climb or a rocky climb where there's no ability, there's no ice for bollock of, of free throw dunkers in that situation, then you need to descend with the rock you have and that sort of limited size. So you do find yourself on some routes realizing, you know, high on the face that you can no longer get down because your rock is too small to get down the mountain.

00;56;17;06 - 00;56;42;03
Speaker 1
You know, if there's ice, you can put the friends in forever. But when you're on kind of mixed rock around, you can get to a point where you're only way off. The route is to go over the top.

00;56;42;05 - 00;56;48;25
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah yeah. No, it's it's I've I've I've left a lot of rocks behind.

00;56;48;25 - 00;56;57;10
Speaker 2
And is all, is all that self-funded or do you, kind of like, are you supported by a group or somebody that kind of helps offset those costs?

00;56;58;22 - 00;57;26;27
Speaker 1
I am self-funded, but we're very lucky. In the UK, we have the best expedition funding in the world. It's not from companies or from tech, anything like that. There are various of organizations, most notably in the Mount Everest Foundation. And we can get quite good funding for exploratory expedition climbing. Better than anywhere anybody in Europe or in the States, for example.

00;57;27;00 - 00;57;59;19
Speaker 1
It was it was outstanding, to be honest, when when the Brits climbed Everest in 53, the money raised from the book they wrote and the film they made, rather than spending the money, they put it into an investment fund. And since the 50s, they've just been giving away the profits of their investment to expedition climbers. And, I'm actually now on the, the committee that gives out the money and, and, and every year we give away over 100,000 pounds.

00;57;59;25 - 00;58;09;03
Speaker 1
Every single year.

00;58;09;06 - 00;58;29;14
Speaker 1
Now people come to us with their proposals and and, you know, there's a number of applications every year where there's lots of applications every year. And it's, you know, it's it's great because it's, it's it's very based on promoting good ethics, you know, so, you have to really climb alpine style. It has to be a new route.

00;58;29;14 - 00;58;41;21
Speaker 1
Yes. Simply exploration. You can't take a bull case, you know, there's lots of things built into it to promote good style in the mountains.

00;58;42;03 - 00;58;56;24
Speaker 1
Then the American Alpine Club gave away some money each year. But, But yeah, considering the state the size of the states and the amount of wealth they have, the amount of funding you guys have is is pathetic. To be honest, compared to the UK.

00;58;56;24 - 00;59;17;24
Speaker 2
I would agree. Yeah I think that I don't know, I mean, optimism, at least to my knowledge, is so ingrained into like, European culture. And I feel like it's just not the same in America. It's still kind of this new sport that we've kind of developed as a society. And I'm not sure if, like, it's as ingrained as it is.

00;59;18;08 - 00;59;48;16
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think in the UK, alpine, I mean, helping them is not as ingrained as say in the, in Europe, in, in France and Switzerland. But we just have this long tradition, maybe going back to the sort of British empire of going on exploratory expeditions. Now, if we go back hundreds of years, there's always somebody going to darkest Africa or trying to find a way into Tibet, or it's just something that's always kind of happened in the UK.

00;59;48;19 - 01;00;07;04
Speaker 1
And I think that tradition of exploration sort of still exists, obviously in a romantic form, because you can't really explore anymore with satellite, satellite imagery. But, but that kind of idea of going and expedition is a big thing in the UK and it's, it's as a result, it's well funded.

01;00;07;22 - 01;00;29;05
Speaker 2
In in in regards to your time in the Himalayan and kind of these more hostile, I would say, environments. Have you ever run into any, you know, stories like Tommy Caldwell with, like, running into terrorist groups or any very dangerous situations with, local population or anything in these mountains that you've been in.

01;00;30;09 - 01;00;47;25
Speaker 1
No, I don't never know. The most scary thing is being maybe detained by the local police on the on the gunpoint for a short period of time until we decide whether your permits are acceptable. But then I've never had any problem with with locals.

01;00;47;25 - 01;00;55;23
Speaker 2
that's kind of part of the risk assessment and the planning that you've done or just, just not going into the areas that are highly contested.

01;00;56;05 - 01;01;18;14
Speaker 1
No, I mean, I'm in them all the time. You know, thing about mountains is they're always on borders. So mountains are always contested areas. To be honest. So I spent a lot of time in kind of what you describe as dubious locations. But I've never had really any problems. Even when we were kidnaped by the Maoist revolutionaries in Nepal, they were very friendly.

01;01;18;16 - 01;01;40;16
Speaker 1
And and as soon as we made a small donation to the revolution, they let us go, which is quite good, because they gave me a receipt. And, and I said, I've got a receipt for, $25, from the Maoists revolution. And come the revolution, I can I can refund it.

01;01;40;16 - 01;01;48;06
Speaker 1
That was it. Yes. Yeah. But I I've got my receipt and it's it's on the wall because it's a it's worth more than the $25.

01;01;48;06 - 01;01;49;02
Speaker 1
I think.

01;02;33;07 - 01;02;34;10
Speaker 1
That's correct. Yes.

01;02;34;10 - 01;02;39;29
Speaker 2
are your thoughts surrounding the award in general and have you sort it out in any way?

01;02;39;29 - 01;02;41;19
Speaker 2
When you choose your objectives?

01;02;41;28 - 01;03;18;01
Speaker 1
That's so sorted out. No. So it's, it's it's something that's evolved over time. It's very was very much a French invention, to sort of, recognize great achievements in the mountains. And, and being a French invention was nearly always won by French people. And, and I think we were the first Brits to to win it back in 2002, I can't remember.

01;03;18;03 - 01;03;47;29
Speaker 1
And it was a kind of a bit of a mad experience, you know, we didn't realize what we'd learned. We didn't really know the significance of it. It was a massive sort of jamboree, and it was a bit of a crazy thing to be involved in. And then then the the pilot went through some so, so identity crisis, and it disappeared for a while, and then it was kind of reborn as more of a sort of celebration of climbing in good style.

01;03;48;02 - 01;04;13;05
Speaker 1
And now it's very much designed to promote climbing in the best possible style, which is something I'm a big son, obviously. So. So actually, my first appeal doors were kind of a crazy sort of publicity mad event that I didn't really enjoy. But now I'm a huge supporter of it because it's about promoting climbing in the best possible style.

01;04;13;07 - 01;04;52;13
Speaker 1
And it promotes the sort of climbing that I think is the best way to climb. And, you know, maybe in the UK, where ethics is massively important, we we don't need something like that. But in a lot of countries where ethics are not as strong historically they climbed in some quite poor styles. I think this award has really helped promote climbing in better style, so it's something I've become quite a strong supporter of, not just because everyone loads of them, but because because it's really promoting what I would like to promote.

01;04;52;16 - 01;05;13;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. So so so yeah, at first when I go, I thought was mad and bonkers and I would never get involved in it again. And then years later, I'm quite a big supporter of it. Because the, the charter has a charter of, of appeal to door which states exactly what they're trying to promote. And I agree 100% with it.

01;05;13;20 - 01;05;27;00
Speaker 1
It's all about recognizing the the mountains and having respect for the mountains and climbing in the best possible style.

01;05;27;03 - 01;05;51;21
Speaker 1
Yes. So so they they have, a committee of judges who's different every year. And there's usually about six people who are, you know, usually well-known mountaineers from around the world. I've been on the panel, yeah. Now, I've been on the panel on a year where there wasn't anywhere else for me.

01;05;53;03 - 01;05;53;25
Speaker 1
Yeah,

01;05;53;25 - 01;05;58;19
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, no, I didn't, you know, but, Yeah, though. Yeah.

01;05;58;19 - 01;06;23;18
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I've been on the panel and it's, it's quite a rigorous process, you know, you're discussing with people from all around the world. You know, when I was on the, when I was a, the panel included people from Germany and Italy and, Japan and America, you know, and it was really quite a heated debate on discussing who climbed not the best objectives, but in the best style.

01;06;23;23 - 01;06;27;14
Speaker 2
So it's primarily about the style of the objective.

01;06;28;18 - 01;06;51;08
Speaker 1
But it does help to be really hard. But, but style is really important. And if the style is not good, then, you know, for example, when then when I was on the, on the panel, there was one expedition where they climbed an amazing route, and they climbed the roof in good style, but they got lifted off by helicopter.

01;06;51;10 - 01;06;56;13
Speaker 1
And that basically was discounted as, you know, a contender.

01;06;56;13 - 01;07;03;27
Speaker 2
you in a in reference to style, I think that, you know, when you aren't using bolts, you're forced to follow the weaknesses of the rock.

01;07;03;27 - 01;07;16;02
Speaker 2
is there something unethical about having a vision for a blank face and using bolts to establish a route up that particular section of the mountain?

01;07;18;07 - 01;07;39;17
Speaker 1
I think if you if you're forcing an unnatural line of a blank section, you're imposing your will on the mountain. You're not. You're not doing what the mountain's allowing you to do. You're imposing your will. So it means that you're important. You're more important than the mountain. And I think that kind of climbing blank base at all cost is, is just wrong.

01;07;39;18 - 01;08;10;14
Speaker 1
You know, it's it's you're you're not there to impose your will on the mountain. You're there to, create something that's beautiful, that is a natural line, you know, even if it's quite contorted, if you define the natural weakness up a a big mountain is is a wonderful thing. But to hammer into submission and impose your will on some arbitrary blank piece of rock, I think is to me is a strange concept, and I don't really understand why you would want to do that.

01;08;10;14 - 01;08;32;01
Speaker 1
And also, when people impose their will like that, they. It's almost like saying that nobody will ever be better than me, and I don't. I envisage in the future nobody will ever be better than me. Nobody will be paid to clean this blank section because they're so good and so bold. Nobody will ever be better than me. And how can anybody say that?

01;08;32;04 - 01;08;52;24
Speaker 1
You know where we're at this small point in time, and who knows what technology will create in the future and how good climbers will be in the future. And to say that, you know, nobody will ever be better than me. Therefore, I am justified in chipping this hold or placing this bolt is the level of arrogance is just unbelievable.

01;08;52;24 - 01;08;53;23
Speaker 1
Today.

01;08;53;23 - 01;09;18;11
Speaker 2
That makes sense. It makes sense to me. In terms of your, your vision for choosing these objectives. How do you do that. And, and when did you kind of start setting your eyes on first ascents, like, because I think, yeah, it's just like an interesting part of the sport is to have this vision, to go exploring and to find these completely unclaimed mountains.

01;09;18;12 - 01;09;22;09
Speaker 2
Like, what's your process of of choosing these objectives?

01;09;22;20 - 01;10;00;14
Speaker 1
And I think they have to be beautiful. You know, the mountain has to be beautiful. And I think that the we want some, some of esthetically pleasing line, you know, some beautiful ice line or Ridgecrest or buttress or, you know, this setting of of how it appears is really important to me. So that's, that's important. But again, it has to be feasible for me to climb in alpine style, you know, so there's a limit to how impressive think I can climb because I, you know, I can't climb blank granite.

01;10;00;16 - 01;10;14;20
Speaker 1
But, yeah, I think you see the appearance of it and the esthetics is, is really important. But also the esthetics, not just the appearance, but the mountain itself, you know, to climb something maybe that's never been climbed before.

01;10;14;20 - 01;10;25;26
Speaker 1
You know, to me, to me, the ultimate sort of expression of alpine ism is, you know, some north north facing buttress that's never been attempted before.

01;10;25;28 - 01;10;38;01
Speaker 1
That least a summit of the mountain that's never been tried before. And to me, that's just the ultimate in alpine ism. And that's what I always crave for. And sometimes we achieve that and often we don't.

01;10;38;01 - 01;10;41;03
Speaker 2
When was your first. First descent. First. First descent.

01;10;44;02 - 01;11;09;07
Speaker 1
The first, I mean, even as, as a young person and when I was a rock climbing is 15, 16, you know, we we do climb new rock roots and things like that. But actually in the big mountains, probably the the route I mentioned before was junior and with Mick Fowler, was the first time I climbed to a big underlying size.

01;11;09;10 - 01;11;19;07
Speaker 1
And yeah, yeah, that was quite a and, and you realize how addictive it is to go off a ground that nobody else has climbed before.

01;11;19;07 - 01;11;36;28
Speaker 2
in the article it's like you saw the images of the, the face in the American Alpine Journal and like, you know, people are like, hey, like, this is, you know, and it almost seems like you and MacFarlane were kind of pressured to go capture that climb before anybody else had kind of thought of, you know, tackling that objective.

01;11;36;29 - 01;11;40;17
Speaker 2
Did you feel like, any pressure to, like, get out there before other

01;11;40;17 - 01;12;04;05
Speaker 1
yeah. I mean, you know, there's no getting away from the fact that, you know, there is an element of competition to mountaineering and the if you don't climb at something else or climate, and, you know, and also there was more. Yeah. In this day and age, there's so much information on the internet, you know, you can go out and climb something that's never been heard of before.

01;12;04;05 - 01;12;23;18
Speaker 1
But, you know, in those days you had limited sources of information such as the American Alpine Journal. And if a journal came out with a really impressive pitch on it, you knew, you know, hundreds or thousands of other people would have been looking at it thinking, oh, that was good. So there was kind of a little bit of competition, though, that you were aware of.

01;12;23;21 - 01;12;27;13
Speaker 1
And that was quite, you know, quite motivating.

01;12;27;13 - 01;12;44;09
Speaker 2
articles that Fowler, at that moment in your climbing career, almost was kind of a mentor in a way, for that particular ascent. Is that true or were you guys more kind of along the same lines in terms of capabilities and experience in the mountains?

01;12;44;24 - 01;13;10;15
Speaker 1
No. Now next I think 14 years older than me. So it's not not quite the previous generation but it kind of so when we teamed up, he was definitely a mentor, you know, and as a teenager, it was kind of my hero. And, yeah, he was a legendary person. So, yeah, to get to climb of him was it was a great thing.

01;13;10;18 - 01;13;34;10
Speaker 1
But then we very quickly realized that we climbed in the same kind of style, in the same way. And, you know, we've never had a crossword between each other, really, on the mountain, you know, and, and the Italian thing is, you know, when, when, when you look at each other and one he says it's time to go down, though the person always agrees immediately, you know, so we we kind of make the same decisions at the same time.

01;13;34;10 - 01;13;59;01
Speaker 2
Yeah. And we had talked at the beginning of this conversation. Kind of we talked about the the ascent of that, that wall. About the rotten ice pillar and the kind of hanging devise that you guys had and the reflections that you had from that route in terms of, you know, realizing that there's other passions for, your life, before you move on to the next, kind of climb.

01;13;59;04 - 01;14;21;06
Speaker 2
There's a couple things on here for about that ascent that I'd like to discuss. It looked like that particular route had a really tight window for at climbers acclimatization. Like, what is your typical process for acclimatizing in the mountains like that? And, you know, what is that process like for you?

01;14;24;12 - 01;14;47;01
Speaker 1
I think partly because we've always had jobs, time away. So it's been more limited. So we do try to do a, you know, usually fit an expedition in four weeks. Nearly every expedition I've been on has been a four week plot. So, I've, I think I only once been on exhibition, longed for for four weeks.

01;14;47;03 - 01;15;24;25
Speaker 1
So time is quite tight when you got to approach the mountain, etc.. But they tend to fall a fuller, fairly sort of systematic pattern of basically you, you spend a few days trekking and hiking to base camp. As soon as you get to base camp, we will always go off on sort of a five day acclimatization outing, which is kind of a reconnaissance slash acclimatization, and that will usually involve hiking up some nearby mountain with a good view of the face, and then getting to some height where you feel really shit and you got a headache and nauseous and you eat something weird, and then of up, and then take some painkillers

01;15;24;27 - 01;15;46;21
Speaker 1
and then go to sleep and then repeat the following day. So it's completely miserable. Acclimatization. And yeah, you wonder why, you know, if you're doing this. But usually after about five days, you head back down to base camp, nearly always have one day off to eat as much for you as possible, and then set off for the route the following day.

01;15;46;23 - 01;16;06;21
Speaker 1
And then most trips take about eight days or something like that, and then you get back to base camp. We'll go home. So it's really funny. You go on these expeditions and nearly always I only spend about four days in base camp and that's it. You're either acclimatizing or on the route or traveling, so we're quite, quite driven.

01;16;06;23 - 01;16;32;13
Speaker 1
And if I can get home in, say, three and a half weeks, then that's really popular with my family and, and, yeah. Yeah. So it's quite a busy there's no, there's none of this kind of sitting around in base camp. The people often talk about, for days and days, you know, is this normal to be just never in base camp?

01;16;32;16 - 01;16;53;08
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think, you know, like acclimatization. You carry on regardless. On the climb, I'm never set off in bad weather, but as long as the day you set off has been okay, then that's all right. I mean, the thing is, you. Either you got to go on a mountain for like, seven, eight days, something like that.

01;16;53;08 - 01;17;24;23
Speaker 1
So there will be storms, you know, and you're mentally prepared for a storm and you're expecting storms. So you see. So it's just part of the process. And I think, you know, that's why I never use weather forecast ever on expeditions. I think weather forecasts just, you know, the you're always sitting around waiting for this apparent improvement in the weather, whereas if you just make your own decisions and get on with it, it seems to be much more effective then you're more successful that way.

01;17;24;26 - 01;17;34;18
Speaker 1
So, yeah, I believe in looking at the hills and looking at the sky and not asking for weather forecasts.

01;17;34;21 - 01;17;59;14
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, yes. And also, you know, climbing in bad weather, it's not that bad, really. And it's also part of the British climbing scene, you know, if you if you have a foundation in Scotland, the Scottish climbing culture is you go out every day, regardless of whether you know nobody. You may look at the weather forecast to choose a location, but you would never stay in the valley because the weather was terrible.

01;17;59;17 - 01;18;27;14
Speaker 1
And as a result, you used just going up for day after day in really bad weather. And people with that kind of Scottish background, you just have a different appreciation of bad weather and you have the ability to deal with stormy conditions. I think that's one of the reasons why Brits have, you know, fairly successful on big mountains is then if you sort of a classical shammy climber, you don't have a climbing, brilliant weather and you have no experience at all.

01;18;27;14 - 01;18;49;04
Speaker 1
I think it's probably the same in North America. People don't go out in bad weather. They wait for the good weather because there's so much good weather around. Whereas in Scotland, if you waited for the good weather, you, you know, two years before you went, I said, I think I climbed in Scotland for about five years before I had the sunny day just.

01;18;49;04 - 01;19;04;11
Speaker 2
like you said, the experience of knowing how to climb. But it's also a matter of just not letting it cause panic or fear and like, cause to, you know, cloud your judgment. And when making decisions in bad weather or bailing too soon or.

01;19;04;13 - 01;19;29;13
Speaker 2
Yeah, just making making mistakes. How do you deal with like. I mean, these are big, big objectives with huge unknowns. You know, sometimes the unknown can be fearful within itself. Like, how do you manage fear and how do you manage, like the jitters that you experience or might not experience before, like a big objective like that, particularly like the day before?

01;19;31;14 - 01;19;53;16
Speaker 1
I think if if you've progressed your climbing career in a structured way, you're only moving on when you've got plenty of experience at the previous level. And I think that's really useful to do that, because it means you don't get as frightened as you might have done before. You know, what you're about to do isn't such a huge leap into the unknown.

01;19;53;19 - 01;20;15;12
Speaker 1
So I don't get overly nervous. The day before. Maybe excited is the right words. I don't get over nervous. And then then on on the mountains themselves. You know, you are correct. I mean, you know, these faces, like, for example, we just, did a route Newton neat new route in Nepal. And the face was like 2500m high.

01;20;15;14 - 01;20;38;23
Speaker 1
And it's just so massive. It's quite hard to get your head around it. And what I've always done is I just break it down in my head into very manageable chunks and, you know, while like, well, I can visualize the overall route most of my decisions are often made on the next pitch. And I don't I don't worry about what's going to happen when I'm 30 pitches up, I worry about the next pitch.

01;20;38;26 - 01;20;54;21
Speaker 1
And I think looking at a pitch and say, okay, well, can we do this? You know, will it be any harder to get down from the top of the next pitch than it is from here? Then you can only there's only one pitch and you kind of work your way to the mental goal to mountain in quite small, manageable chunks.

01;20;54;23 - 01;21;03;22
Speaker 1
And that's kind of how I manage some theory in my head.

01;21;03;25 - 01;21;11;23
Speaker 1
Yeah. So if you look at the whole face, it's like, no way, no chops, but you just break it down into little bits.

01;21;11;23 - 01;21;20;09
Speaker 2
On that particular route, the the Chinese, what is this one? Said the singular

01;21;22;03 - 01;21;28;01
Speaker 1
Signal Sigourney in.

01;21;28;01 - 01;21;33;26
Speaker 2
It's a and so that was a personal record for you. Was that like, was it concerning? Were you scared?

01;21;33;27 - 01;21;38;17
Speaker 2
Like, was it like, wow, this is like kind of. Or is it just because you weren't eating?

01;21;38;26 - 01;21;59;24
Speaker 1
No, it was because, two. What? When I got to the end, I was quite concerned at the end to find out what was going to happen. And, and I went and, it was just small and perfectly formed, and I realized that, I'd, I'd used up so much energy, I'd digested everything in my go, even the fiber, you know, there was just nothing left at all.

01;21;59;27 - 01;22;05;21
Speaker 1
And, I did lose a huge amount of weight on that time.

01;22;05;21 - 01;22;14;07
Speaker 1
I probably lost over 20 pounds in an in a 12 day con.

01;22;14;11 - 01;22;34;09
Speaker 1
I'm never going to the doctor afterwards. Say that I felt a bit tired and there was something wrong with me, and I explained to the doctor what I'd done and it just looked to me. I said, you know, losing that much weight. So quickly is like being in a major car crash. Your body is completely shattered and you should expect to feel ill for about six months.

01;22;34;12 - 01;22;38;15
Speaker 1
And it was it was right.

01;22;38;15 - 01;22;47;10
Speaker 2
last kind of, prefacing question I have before the next story, I just really want to kind of round you out as a as a climber. It says here that you hate packing.

01;22;47;28 - 01;23;06;18
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, it's it because I'm, you know, I have a family. And a wife said, And is that, you know, the the week before an exhibition is just a nightmare because you're trying to finish all your work, and. But I've got a business as well. I'm trying to organize the business, and I'm trying to, do fun things with a family.

01;23;06;18 - 01;23;27;28
Speaker 1
And I'm trying to pack my bags to go to the expedition. The whole thing is, is the worst part of the whole year. And usually three days before the exhibition, I just said, I'm not going to go. I've had enough. This is completely driving me crazy. It's just it's a really low point. And, you know, it's only when you get your bags on the plane and you're away and you're committed, then that's okay.

01;23;27;28 - 01;23;44;06
Speaker 1
But it's the whole process at home of mainly sorting out the business, sorting out your family. It's it's just a lot to do. And also the kind of places you go to, you know, you might be like the day before and you're still not got your permit and you've still not got your visa. Could you go to somewhere?

01;23;44;06 - 01;23;59;06
Speaker 1
It's really difficult and it's often really quite tense because she's trying to you know, you you're confirming your flights before you've even got a visa for that country. And it's, it's all right up to the line sometimes.

01;23;59;06 - 01;24;13;20
Speaker 2
you've got a, reputation for being able to secure hard to get permits in hard to reach places. Would you say that's just built off that the connections that you've made in your life, or do you have a specific skill set for that?

01;24;14;02 - 01;24;23;02
Speaker 1
No, I wouldn't say there's a skill set or a and there's no contacts. It's just persistence. I think I persist maybe longer than other people do.

01;24;23;10 - 01;24;29;26
Speaker 2
How long have you worked on like what's the longest amount of time frame that you've spent get to like get your hardest to get permit.

01;24;30;23 - 01;24;40;14
Speaker 1
We got a permit for, a picnic entangle in Tibet. And that took eight years. Yeah.

01;24;40;14 - 01;24;54;00
Speaker 2
any mountains that I know I've read about a couple mountains that are, like, closed for religious reasons. Do you. Do you see any chance of mountaineers being able to touch those tops of the mountains without breaking laws?

01;24;54;23 - 01;25;19;29
Speaker 1
Know. And they shouldn't. You know, it's not your mountains. They belong to the local people. And it's. I've got a religious reason for you not climbing it. Then you should. You know, and you know. Yeah. And if there is a lot, like in, for example, in Tibet, there are mountains where they're closed for religious reasons. And then we arrive at this village in Tibet to climb this mountain.

01;25;19;29 - 01;25;55;14
Speaker 1
We went to the monastery and they said, that's our holy mountain. And we went, don't shit. And then they said, yeah, I hope you climb it because we want to know what's on top. It's so, so you just you don't really know about things like that. But then there are mountains that are just closed for political reasons, you know, and there this whole areas of Tibet at the moment, for example, you can't really go to Tibet to you can climb in, for example, Everest in Tibet, but to actually go to proper, climb Tibetan peaks is almost impossible at the moment.

01;25;55;17 - 01;26;02;04
Speaker 1
So there's huge parts of the world.

01;26;02;12 - 01;26;22;24
Speaker 1
I think the Chinese are very, but, I think often the, you know, the Chinese are not great to the Tibetans. And I don't think that they they don't want you to witness things, basically. So they.

01;26;22;27 - 01;26;37;16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe they don't want you to make a video of a protest or something like that. So, so that so that there's big areas that don't want you to go to. I think.

01;26;38;27 - 01;26;41;23
Speaker 1
What do you mean by pirated books?

01;26;41;23 - 01;26;56;26
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. It's gone on. It's gone. It's gone on forever. It's it's it's just normal. You know, if you don't have money and you want to go climbing, you you don't have a permit. So it's,

01;26;56;26 - 01;27;12;22
Speaker 2
than other than not being able to, like, publicly release your, your achievement and to be recognized for it. What are the other risks that people run by pirating peaks like that in places like Nepal or China or Pakistan?

01;27;13;21 - 01;27;40;12
Speaker 1
Non. Really? No. I mean, maybe maybe it's if you get into trouble and you want to rescue by helicopter, maybe it might be more difficult if you don't have a permit. But the worst thing is you'd probably just get turned back at some kind of checkpoint for not having a permit. But there's not really any kind of risks or consequences.

01;27;40;14 - 01;27;42;16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;27;42;16 - 01;28;03;24
Speaker 1
Well, I'm not even sure. Ethics. I mean, the term money goes to some government bureaucracy. It doesn't go to the local people. So, you know, I, I was probably part of that group years ago. Now I'm probably better or better known in established. I like I should have a permit, but you don't see like you contributing to the local economy by helping to permits.

01;28;03;24 - 01;28;07;23
Speaker 2
like a pay to play. You just don't want to have to deal with trouble. So you get the permit?

01;28;08;02 - 01;28;11;13
Speaker 1
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

01;28;11;13 - 01;28;20;19
Speaker 2
cool. Let's dive into the prow of Shiva, which is your second. Put your. I think we've we've talked a lot about, you know, who you are as a climber.

01;28;20;19 - 01;28;33;00
Speaker 2
And, you know, we understand that. So I think maybe just tell us the story. From what you can remember about this objective, kind of like what stood out and bring us through the, the experience.

01;28;33;18 - 01;29;07;21
Speaker 1
I mean, obviously it's about ten years after the previous climb. So there's a lot of climbing in between, you know, an expedition to the every year. So. So there's a lot of climbing going on. I think what in the intervening, intervening period, I did a lot of climbing in different styles. And I went to places like we did a new route on Denali, for example, climbing and like a continuous pushing, a sort of more modern style and we didn't particularly like climbing that way.

01;29;07;24 - 01;29;33;16
Speaker 1
And, so I spent a lot of time climbing in different styles and different ways, and kind of refined what I enjoyed doing. And then ten years later, I found myself. But we make making in India under this peak called the Shiva. Or the peaks called Shiva. And we call the route the Pro. So some Russian guys attempted it, and they said it was, probably not possible, alpine style.

01;29;33;16 - 01;29;54;13
Speaker 1
That concludes today's episode, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. It really means a lot that you're here. If you like today's episode, please be sure to rate and review the show. This simple gesture significantly helps the algorithm share this podcast with new listeners. Also, if you're psyched about what we're doing here at The Climbing Majority, please reach out.

01;29;54;16 - 01;30;13;29
Speaker 1
DM me. Email me. Call me whatever you want. I want to hear from you. And don't forget, you can watch our full episodes on YouTube. Stay tuned for our next episode where we continue our conversation with Paul Ramsden and dive deep into each of his five award winning climbs. Until then, keep exploring, stay safe. And as always,

01;30;14;08 - 01;30;16;11
Speaker 1
thanks for being a part of the climbing majority.

01;30;16;18 - 01;30;18;15
Speaker 1
I'll see you all in two weeks.