79 | Stay Psyched w/ Michael Vaill

Today, we’re continuing The Climbing Majority’s ‘Triple Crown’ series with Michael Vaill, one of the two climbers who recently broke the Yosemite Triple Crown speed record and, just a week later, made history with the monumental Yosemite Quad. If you missed yesterday’s conversation with his partner, Tanner Wanish, I highly recommend giving it a listen after this episode.

If I had to describe Michael Vaill in one word, it would be 'psyched.' His passion is tangible, infectious, and truly motivating. But for Michael, 'psyche' is more than just a climbing mindset—it’s a way of life. Even before discovering climbing, he nurtured this relentless drive while studying and achieving a PhD in Cell Biology. After graduating, he redirected his focus entirely to climbing in Yosemite, where he could fully embrace this life of passion and challenge.

Michael chooses to live a minimalist, flexible life in order to fully immerse himself in climbing. Life in a van allows him to spend every day pursuing what excites him the most. As he says, if he’s “psyched,” then he’ll keep doing it forever.

While his love for climbing runs deep, Michael takes safety and caution seriously. He speaks about the importance of mentorship, learning to place reliable protection, and respecting the skills required to climb at your limit safely…. Even as he tackles routes as serious and dangerous as the legendary Bachar-Yerian, a 5.11 X testpiece, his approach is careful and calculated. He’s also dedicated to helping newer climbers, giving them a safe space to learn and experience the joy of climbing.

Michael is here. Right now…living in the present…., and aims to continue like that for the foreseeable future., And with his recent achievements in the climbing world, I’d say it's working out for him pretty well.... His journey is a reminder to stay psyched, push limits thoughtfully, and savor the fulfillment that climbing brings to our lives.

----

Don’t forget to check out our full video episodes on Youtube!

The TCM movement is growing but we need your help to spread the word! Please share this podcast with your friends and family. Word of mouth is one of the best ways to support the show. If you enjoyed the show we’d appreciate it if you could rate and review us on your favorite podcatcher.

We are always looking for new guests. If you or someone you know would be a great fit for the show please don’t hesitate to reach out. You can reach us on IG or email us directly @ theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com

---

Resources

Michael's IG

Cover photo taken by Connor Brown

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:41 Background
• 20:08 Safety & Passion
• 32:39 Partners
• 44:51 Privilege
• 50:08 Progression
• 1:03:40 Digital Recognition
• 1:06:58 The Bachar-Yerian
• 1:15:07 Current Vision
• 1:31:38 Reflections

Transcript

00;00;00;18 - 00;00;05;27
Speaker 1
Have you ever felt that most climbing media only tells stories about what's happening at the pinnacle of the sport,

00;00;05;27 - 00;00;08;24
Speaker 1
leaving the stories of everyday climbers untold?

00;00;09;04 - 00;00;14;06
Speaker 1
I'm Kyle, and I believe that there is a growing group of climbers that wants representation.

00;00;14;12 - 00;00;24;05
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast, where I capture the stories, experiences and lessons of nonprofessional climbers, guides and athletes from around the world.

00;00;24;07 - 00;00;28;29
Speaker 1
Come join me as I dive deep into a more relatable world of climbing.

00;00;30;14 - 00;00;54;25
Speaker 1
Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast. I am your host, Kyle Brockman. Today, we're continuing the Climbing Majority's Triple Crown series with Michael Vail, one of the two climbers who recently broke the Yosemite Triple Crown speed record and then just a week later, made history with the monumental Yosemite quad. If you missed yesterday's conversation with his partner, Taylor Ranch, I highly recommend giving it a listen after this episode.

00;00;54;27 - 00;01;21;28
Speaker 1
If I had to describe Michael Vail in a single word, it would be psyched. His passion is tangible, infectious, and truly motivating, but for Michael sake is more than just a climbing mindset. It's his way of life. Even before discovery and climbing, he nurtured this relentless drive while studying and achieving a PhD in cell biology. After graduating, he redirected his focus entirely to climbing in Yosemite, where he could fully embrace this life of passion and challenge.

00;01;22;01 - 00;01;40;01
Speaker 1
Michael chooses to live a minimalistic, flexible life in order to fully immerse himself in the world of climbing. Life in a van allows him to spend every day pursuing what excites him the most. And as he says, if he's psyched, then he'll keep doing it forever. While his love for climbing runs deep, Michael takes safety and caution seriously.

00;01;40;04 - 00;02;02;21
Speaker 1
He speaks about the importance of mentorship, learning to place reliable protection, and respecting the skills required to climb at your limit safely. Even as he tackles routes as serious and dangerous as a legendary backer, you're in a 511 x test piece. His approach is careful and calculated. He's also dedicated to helping newer climbers, giving them a safe place to learn and experience the joy of climbing.

00;02;02;24 - 00;02;28;09
Speaker 1
Michael is here right now, living in the present, and aims to continue like that for the foreseeable future. And with his recent achievements in the climbing world, I'd say it's working pretty well for him. His journey is a reminder for us to stay psyched, push our limits thoughtfully, and savor the fulfillment that climbing brings to our lives. And now I bring you my conversation with Michael Vail.

00;02;40;05 - 00;02;51;09
Speaker 1
yeah, I got this van a few years ago, the year I finished my, grad school. And I've been living in the van for most of the year for the last, I guess, three years now.

00;02;51;12 - 00;03;02;17
Speaker 1
Just spending a lot of time in Yosemite and then different places in the summer, and. Yeah, so it's been pretty much my.

00;03;02;19 - 00;03;23;19
Speaker 1
Yeah, it was mostly built when I got it. So I was like, like while I was writing my dissertation in grad school, I had like, always like a few tabs open looking at like, Craigslist and things all over the country, like people that were selling vans. And this one popped up and the guy was selling it for like a really good price at the time, especially with the pandemic and everything going on.

00;03;23;21 - 00;03;43;28
Speaker 1
And, he was in Salt Lake and I was in San Diego, and then, I think basically he was selling it for like 20 grand, less than, you know, other similar vans. And I told him, I said, well, if you're down, I'll fly there tonight or. No, the next day I was like, I'll come tomorrow. I was like, I'm in San Diego, but I'll fly there tomorrow and I'll drive it home.

00;03;44;01 - 00;03;55;20
Speaker 1
If, as long as you take it off, you know, Craigslist today I was like, as long as there's not obviously something wrong. Like, you lied and he was a good guy, and. Yeah.

00;03;55;22 - 00;03;58;13
Speaker 2
Yeah. So basically, he bought the van and he was living.

00;03;58;13 - 00;04;06;06
Speaker 1
In the van, working in, at a tech company in San Francisco, and he was living in the parking lot of his job, and he was, like.

00;04;06;06 - 00;04;07;07
Speaker 2
Doing his own thing.

00;04;07;08 - 00;04;20;02
Speaker 1
Just like living in the van. Just, I don't know, coding in the office, showering in the basement. And then, he told me that he was like a, like a celibate coder. He was just going to, like, live that life. And then he.

00;04;20;02 - 00;04;31;24
Speaker 2
Met this woman, and she had two kids already, and they got married and they moved to Utah. And then he was like, well, now I have this little van. It's not little. It's a ProMaster, but it's like the shorter one. Like, obviously a family of four.

00;04;31;24 - 00;04;32;25
Speaker 1
Is not going to do anything.

00;04;32;25 - 00;04;39;11
Speaker 2
With this. So it just sat in their driveway for six months and then he just decided to dump it. So I got lucky.

00;04;39;11 - 00;04;45;21
Speaker 1
I refreshed one of my tabs and it popped up, and I called him like five minutes after he listed in picked it up the next day.

00;04;45;23 - 00;04;46;25
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;04;46;25 - 00;04;59;26
Speaker 2
have, like, kind of a weird stigma with, like, buying used vans that people have lived in before. Like, have you? Is there any, like, the energetic presence of, like him and, like, weird things that you've noticed about the person that he used to live

00;05;00;24 - 00;05;03;27
Speaker 2
No. Not really. I mean, he he included this, like.

00;05;03;27 - 00;05;08;04
Speaker 1
Really cool, like, artwork on a few of the things like this one that, like his. I think his brother.

00;05;08;04 - 00;05;09;23
Speaker 2
Took those pictures.

00;05;09;25 - 00;05;14;15
Speaker 1
And they're like, printed on these aluminum things. And I get tons of compliments, like, more about those. That artwork. There's two of.

00;05;14;15 - 00;05;23;24
Speaker 2
Them in the van than anything else. And I was like, they're like, oh, that's so cool. Where'd you get that? And I was like, well, it's the brother of the guy that sold me the van. And yeah.

00;05;23;27 - 00;05;26;01
Speaker 1
But no, it's oh.

00;05;26;01 - 00;05;27;16
Speaker 2
It's actually a small world. Because the crazy thing.

00;05;27;16 - 00;05;41;19
Speaker 1
Was, I was living in San Diego. He was living in Salt Lake. And as it turns out, he graduated from college with my older sister. And they went to, like, this small Christian college in North Georgia with like 200 people in their graduating class.

00;05;41;22 - 00;05;43;11
Speaker 2
And we found that out, like when I was in.

00;05;43;11 - 00;05;45;28
Speaker 1
Like buying the van from him, I was like, oh, that's crazy.

00;05;45;28 - 00;05;49;05
Speaker 2
It's it's kind of a small world coincidence. But yeah.

00;05;49;07 - 00;05;52;10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like my sister and brother in law, like, knew him.

00;05;52;13 - 00;05;55;08
Speaker 2
But yeah.

00;05;55;10 - 00;06;02;16
Speaker 1
Exactly. Yeah. No, it's really convenient. Yeah.

00;06;02;16 - 00;06;10;26
Speaker 2
briefed over that a little bit. So, what did you study? How long were you in school? And, like, are you currently working on your, like, working in a job that's related to your degree? Now?

00;06;11;20 - 00;06;31;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I went to, let's see, undergrad in Georgia where I kind of went to high school in Augusta, Georgia. Then I went to undergrad in Athens at the University of Georgia, and I studied biochemistry there. And, I was doing a bunch of research in the summer, I'd go to the medical school and like, work in a research lab there.

00;06;32;00 - 00;06;58;28
Speaker 1
And then, yeah, after four years of that, I decided I wanted to keep doing research. So I went to get a PhD, and I kind of looked around the country and picked, UC San Diego and ended up going there and, yeah, seven years later, I finished my PhD. And yeah, it's been I mean, so basically, I remember I was 29 years old when I finished the PhD, and that was the first time in my life that I was not a student.

00;06;59;01 - 00;07;00;22
Speaker 1
I remember going somewhere in there like student discount.

00;07;00;22 - 00;07;07;16
Speaker 2
And I was like, oh, wait, actually not. Yeah, it's crazy. For the first time in 29 years. Yeah.

00;07;07;16 - 00;07;23;17
Speaker 2
Yeah. How was that for you? Because I know a lot of people, like, they don't really know what they want to do. And so they just keep going back to school and going back to school and then, you know, they end up, you know, either being a teacher or, you know, so, like, how have you kind of like, dealt with your identity, being removed from being a student

00;07;23;28 - 00;07;30;06
Speaker 1
I mean, basically, when it comes down to it, I'm psyched. Like, and that's.

00;07;30;06 - 00;07;30;16
Speaker 2
What I.

00;07;30;16 - 00;08;03;23
Speaker 1
Say. Like, honestly, that's like, the thing that I probably identify with is just like, whatever you do, like, do it all the way. Like, for me, in grad school, like I was doing research, I was like, I was like going to the lab and working really hard and, you know, year after year, I worked on a whole project that failed, you know, and then all these years later, I've been there and then starting a new project and and just like, just like going after it and, you know, it's just kind of what I'm doing now.

00;08;03;23 - 00;08;24;03
Speaker 1
Climbing. Like, I'm stoked. I'm just, like, going for it. And, yeah, I don't know, I it's just like such, exciting life. There's so many things out there to do. And just, like, going all the way. I don't know, like, for me personally, I get so much fulfillment out of that. And, you know, there's, you know.

00;08;24;06 - 00;08;25;28
Speaker 2
So many people say, oh, the.

00;08;26;00 - 00;08;31;06
Speaker 1
I don't know, happiness comes from a balanced life and, you know, not black and white thinking, but.

00;08;31;09 - 00;08;34;27
Speaker 2
Honestly, I'm pretty happy. And I kind of yeah, I don't.

00;08;34;27 - 00;08;48;12
Speaker 1
Generally do much balance. Like if I'm climbing, I'm like seeing how many times I can climb El Cap and one day if I'm, you know, going to school, I'm like trying to get a PhD. I don't know, it's. Yeah. So that's that's kind of.

00;08;48;12 - 00;08;54;15
Speaker 2
Did you have that vision for the PhD when you were younger, or did you kind of just like. Oh, like. All right, this is what I'm going to do. And it kind of evolved into where you

00;08;55;09 - 00;08;55;26
Speaker 2
Not when.

00;08;55;26 - 00;09;14;28
Speaker 1
I was really young. I mean, when I was in college, I think I started working in research and I just really loved the, the like. I just thought it was so cool. I remember being like, I really like school, even when I was in high school or whatever, and then going to college and meeting professors who had spent their whole life studying.

00;09;15;01 - 00;09;31;18
Speaker 1
And I'm like, oh, professor's just the highest level student. Like, you can just be a student your whole life and just learn, like just being able to go out there and like, discover things and learn things and learn things that no one's even known before, you know, which is what research is at the end of the day. So and I'm like, oh, this is cool.

00;09;31;18 - 00;09;39;16
Speaker 1
Going to a lecture and learning something that was discovered 5100, 500 years ago. But it's even cooler to go to the lab and, you know, find this.

00;09;39;19 - 00;09;40;09
Speaker 2
Random thing.

00;09;40;09 - 00;09;54;08
Speaker 1
That no one, you know, only ten other people in the world care about. If that. But it's, you know, you're the first one to know it. It's it's really exciting. Yeah.

00;09;54;10 - 00;10;16;11
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, basically, I so, like all the cells in the, in the body are covered in if you if anybody remembers from biology, they're covered in like, like okay. So I studied how some of the specific molecules in that glycol calyx, interacted with other cells and how that affects like brain development and neural stem cells and some disorders.

00;10;16;11 - 00;10;25;17
Speaker 1
And yeah, that's kind of my, general audience description. That makes sense. Yeah. So.

00;10;30;09 - 00;10;51;22
Speaker 1
So, yeah, looking at interactions and also like the structures of some of those molecules, like some of them are really difficult to like, see what they really look like. So I did some work with that. This is like determine the molecular structure and some other work on how they function in the cells, like growing the cells in a dish and looking at what they do with each other, and even in like an animal, like looking at mouse brains and things like that.

00;10;51;25 - 00;10;56;13
Speaker 1
So yeah, I'm kind of all the different levels. Yeah.

00;10;56;13 - 00;11;03;24
Speaker 2
did you, like, go through school on a scholarship? Or do you have, like, the, stereotypical, like, overwhelming amount of student

00;11;04;23 - 00;11;06;15
Speaker 2
Mostly in undergrad.

00;11;06;15 - 00;11;24;13
Speaker 1
Yeah. I had some scholarships and I worked, you know, like, yeah, as a part time and managed to pay for most of that and had a little bit of debt from undergrad, but like, paid that off when I was in grad school because, I got paid like a stipend as a PhD student. So, yeah, I was able to like, save.

00;11;24;13 - 00;11;43;12
Speaker 1
And I mean, I started living really frugally as soon as I pretty much moved to San Diego and, lived in student housing. I lived downtown in a cheap apartment, kind of in not the best neighborhood, but, you know, it was able to to save and yeah. In Hillcrest.

00;11;43;14 - 00;11;47;18
Speaker 2
Yeah. I lived on. Yeah, I lived on the corner of.

00;11;47;18 - 00;12;01;19
Speaker 1
Yeah, ninth Avenue in Washington and the. Yeah, I remember waking up one night. I my apartment was on the first floor and, like, what's that smell? And, talking to my roommate, I was like, I don't know, did you smell that? Like, like, was there, like a fire in the back? And they're like, oh, no, that's just meth.

00;12;01;21 - 00;12;07;28
Speaker 1
That's what meth smells like. Burning. And I was like, oh, okay. They were just living in the alley, people just getting high in the back alley.

00;12;07;28 - 00;12;13;04
Speaker 2
So you know. Yeah, it was a it was a different, you know, and we always had to make sure.

00;12;13;04 - 00;12;17;23
Speaker 1
To lock the trash cans. Otherwise it would be, you know, ripped apart.

00;12;17;26 - 00;12;21;21
Speaker 2
So it wasn't, it wasn't like one of the, the boozy new,

00;12;21;23 - 00;12;24;26
Speaker 1
Yeah. Condos on like Fifth Avenue or something.

00;12;24;26 - 00;12;35;09
Speaker 2
It was. Yeah. So. But yeah. Oh, it's just a few years, you know, and wake up, ditch out, go, go to school in La Hoya and. Yeah.

00;12;35;12 - 00;12;36;03
Speaker 1
So.

00;12;36;03 - 00;12;40;19
Speaker 2
when. When did your life trajectory find climbing? Like when? When did it cross your path?

00;12;40;22 - 00;13;03;20
Speaker 1
So I so in 2016. So I started I moved to San Diego in 2014. And in 2016 I went to Yosemite for the first time. And I was just coming up to do some backpacking because when I was younger out in Georgia, I used to go hiking on the Appalachian Trail and do stuff like that, and I was like, okay, so look at there's these awesome mountains.

00;13;03;20 - 00;13;29;00
Speaker 1
The Sierra Nevada. I'm going to go explore that. I'm going to go to Yosemite. So I came up here to go on a just a weekend backpack trip, and I saw people climbing these walls and I saw people racking out gear in the parking lot of camp for. And something clicked and I was like, oh, because I had been scrambling, you know, in the East Coast, you you bag a peak, it means you walk up a hill and oh, you're at the top.

00;13;29;02 - 00;13;42;29
Speaker 1
And in the Sierra. I had tried doing some peak bagging, but I turned around a couple times and I was trying to get to the top of something because all of a sudden you're in fourth class terrain. It's like, well, and something clicked and I saw these people in the valley with ropes. I was like, oh yeah, people use ropes on that stuff.

00;13;43;02 - 00;14;05;18
Speaker 1
So I was like, I need to learn how to do that. So I started asking everyone I knew who was a climber to take me climbing. And yeah, that winter I, managed to talk a couple friends into taking me out and, Yeah. And I think it was the next summer. I must have come back to your Smitty and then I was the one flaking out the rope.

00;14;05;20 - 00;14;16;27
Speaker 1
And it was really climbing in the Sierra, climbing in Yosemite that, that made me want to get started. And, you know, I'm in Yosemite right now, so. Yeah, pretty much can't get enough of this place.

00;14;16;27 - 00;14;23;18
Speaker 2
you like. Did you have any specific mentors when you got into climbing, or did you, like, kind of take that on your own and kind of, like,

00;14;25;17 - 00;14;27;00
Speaker 2
It was a little bit of both.

00;14;27;00 - 00;14;48;13
Speaker 1
So the in the very beginning. So, actually there was a guy who worked in, at UCSD, Stephan and, he was the first one to take me climbing. We went out, I think it was Christmas Day or Christmas weekend. We went to, Valley of the Moon in San Diego. We climbed some stuff out there, and I was like, like my first time ever climbing.

00;14;48;13 - 00;14;53;19
Speaker 1
I was, like, leading some five and bolted five, seven face climb or something. And,

00;14;53;22 - 00;14;56;23
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was the first pitch. First pitch? Yeah.

00;14;57;07 - 00;14;57;26
Speaker 2
Leading. Not

00;14;57;26 - 00;15;09;05
Speaker 2
no, he he was like, oh, you should just go for it here. You tie and you clip it to the thing. And when you get to the top, I'll pull it tight and you come, you know, some low angle huge jug haul bolts every five feet. I don't know, but yeah.

00;15;09;05 - 00;15;10;20
Speaker 1
And,

00;15;10;23 - 00;15;12;07
Speaker 2
And then.

00;15;12;10 - 00;15;16;05
Speaker 1
I remember how many. I went out with him a couple times, and then I discovered Mountain Project.

00;15;16;05 - 00;15;17;09
Speaker 2
And actually there were a few people in.

00;15;17;09 - 00;15;43;27
Speaker 1
Mountain Project that were totally willing to go out climbing with a Gumby and, honestly, it was thanks to a couple of them experienced people that would meet me in targets, and I figured out that there's some popular five six in there, and I did that once with someone, and then I started taking out everyone else who I know, who had a climbing harness, who climbed in the gym or whatever to take kids and bought a set of used gear off of eBay and, started going to talk to me.

00;15;43;27 - 00;15;51;03
Speaker 1
It's like every other weekend or every weekend, and just taking people up the same five, six.

00;15;51;03 - 00;16;02;17
Speaker 2
I was like, this is my route. And I had that thing wired. I haven't climbed it in so many years now, and I can probably still tell you what, Gary, is it every Billy? I think it was, no, it was it was it human fright or angel fright?

00;16;02;23 - 00;16;10;13
Speaker 1
Whichever one is the five 5 or 5 six. Yeah. And I yeah, I took quite a few. Like. Yeah, like sport climbing, like people I knew.

00;16;10;13 - 00;16;12;01
Speaker 2
Because I knew a few people who are sport.

00;16;12;01 - 00;16;24;10
Speaker 1
Climbers or gym climbers, but they didn't really do the stuff in the valley, like what I was trying to do. But I was like, oh, it's so much fun.

00;16;24;13 - 00;16;45;06
Speaker 1
I think it was. Yeah. For for climbing at all. And. Yeah. And then Tahquitz when the weather was right, or Joshua Tree in the winter. And I kind of just did that for a couple of years as much as I could. Just and then sometimes a couple times a year, we drive up to the valley or the east side.

00;16;45;09 - 00;16;55;09
Speaker 1
I remember a couple weekend trips to the cemetery from San Diego, but like, when you're when you're psyched, you know, it was like, leave the lab in the middle of the afternoon on Friday, get here at midnight.

00;16;55;12 - 00;16;57;27
Speaker 2
Climb something, you know, epic.

00;16;58;00 - 00;17;00;16
Speaker 1
Some, like whatever it is at the time, was epic.

00;17;00;16 - 00;17;03;17
Speaker 2
Like after six or something, and then,

00;17;03;19 - 00;17;24;28
Speaker 1
Maybe do a couple pages Sunday morning and drive home. But but it was worth it to me because it was like, I just, like, dreamed of it, and I remember. Yeah, sitting in lab, like, waiting for experiments to to run. It's like looking on Mountain Project or you're just thinking about, oh, man, that's crazy that people do things like climb El Cap, you know, it's like, oh, maybe I'll do something like that someday.

00;17;25;00 - 00;17;31;24
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;17;31;27 - 00;17;38;15
Speaker 1
Exactly. Yeah, yeah. No, it's just like it.

00;17;38;15 - 00;17;46;20
Speaker 2
we start, like, climbing, they say, like. And this is cliche, I've said this a bunch on the podcast, but, they say like you're.

00;17;46;20 - 00;17;49;24
Speaker 2
If you survive your first year of trad climbing, then, like, you're usually

00;17;51;18 - 00;17;53;14
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;17;53;14 - 00;18;01;09
Speaker 2
again, like, you know, you're taking people out on your own accord. You had a couple days with a mentor, you know, it's like there's a lot of gray area there and a lot of room to make mistakes.

00;18;01;11 - 00;18;11;18
Speaker 2
And, or put ourselves in situations where, like, if we had fallen, you know, our gear might have not held because we didn't know what we were doing or it was a bad anchor or whatever. Like, you know, I have my own stories, like, do you have

00;18;11;18 - 00;18;15;20
Speaker 2
your own like, stories during the first kind of learning segment where you, like,

00;18;16;19 - 00;18;17;18
Speaker 2
I don't know if I ever.

00;18;17;18 - 00;18;41;20
Speaker 1
Had, like, any, like, close calls that I can think of in those times. I think I got lucky, but also, I was always really, like, cautious, I would say in, like, careful, like, you know, I, I'd gone out with people and I was always watching what they were doing and, and then I'd go back and I had a few books that I got, you know, like John Long's anchors or, you know, had like 3 or 4 of those books, like, whatever, all the popular ones.

00;18;41;20 - 00;18;52;17
Speaker 1
I just got them all. I read them cover to cover. I had sticky notes in them, and I was like, like thinking about this stuff and thinking critically and, and just, you know, it's like this cool problem to solve. And to me.

00;18;52;17 - 00;18;53;14
Speaker 2
That's like, what the.

00;18;53;14 - 00;19;10;14
Speaker 1
Coolest thing about climbing is, is you walk up and you have your self, your gear, there's the mountain, get to the top. You know, whether you're repeating a route or whatever, and you just get to solve that problem whether you're going to free it or not, trying to free it, just climb it faster, whatever it is you're trying to do.

00;19;10;14 - 00;19;28;01
Speaker 1
And that's just such an interesting problem. And, yeah. And I guess the more tools you have, the more of a, intricate solution you're going to come up with. And to me, that's like a big joy of the, the whole game. So, yeah.

00;19;28;01 - 00;19;33;29
Speaker 2
you're. You're a dedicated student, and it sounds like you just applied all those skills directly to the craft of climbing,

00;19;34;05 - 00;19;36;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I definitely did.

00;19;48;12 - 00;19;49;08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;20;05;27 - 00;20;13;03
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. No. It was, Yeah. It's exciting at that stage for sure.

00;20;13;05 - 00;20;14;00
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;20;14;00 - 00;20;22;21
Speaker 2
like, a specific lesson that, like a mentor, shared with you that, like, stuck out in your mind at all? Like, anything that you remember from the past?

00;20;23;03 - 00;20;26;16
Speaker 2
You know, it was like a couple things.

00;20;26;18 - 00;20;35;04
Speaker 1
I think one thing is, like, moving efficiently and, you know, moving safely, but. And understanding, like. Yeah. So I guess what it comes down to is like,

00;20;35;04 - 00;20;52;01
Speaker 1
whenever you want to be safe on the wall, there's only a couple fundamental things you have to remember. And I meet a lot of people who are so concerned with how many lockers they have and how much redundancy they have, and how equalized everything is.

00;20;52;01 - 00;21;23;28
Speaker 1
And all of these things that you read about in a book and at the end of the day, like you want to be attached to the mountain and you want to safe belay, and if you just think about like, okay, I'm on, boy, my gear is good, then I'm attached to the mountain safely. And to think about it practically like, okay, this carabiner is rated for 25 kilonewtons, and if it's cross loaded, it's still rated for eight, you know, and if it's open, it's still rated for seven or something.

00;21;24;00 - 00;21;39;11
Speaker 1
So it's like, okay, even if it comes open, who cares? You know, probably don't need a locker and I don't. What I'm getting at is that you don't want to get tied down in like, all of these little things. It's like, have a good anchor, have a good belay. You know, like.

00;21;39;11 - 00;21;43;05
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to remember there are.

00;21;43;05 - 00;21;47;22
Speaker 2
you argue that part of your attachment to the wall is your, your hands and your feet?

00;21;47;22 - 00;21;51;27
Speaker 2
Sometimes. But I mean, that's not that's not really like the fundamental.

00;21;51;27 - 00;21;53;15
Speaker 1
Of the safety system in climbing.

00;21;53;15 - 00;21;57;24
Speaker 2
Though. Yeah. It depends on who.

00;21;57;24 - 00;22;01;25
Speaker 1
You're asking and what the circumstances.

00;22;01;25 - 00;22;05;26
Speaker 2
for me I feel like the, the only way you can get injured climbing is if you come off

00;22;06;08 - 00;22;11;16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;22;11;18 - 00;22;24;17
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;22;24;19 - 00;22;25;21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;22;30;21 - 00;22;31;16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;22;31;19 - 00;22;34;03
Speaker 2
But also, it's really fun to try hard things.

00;22;34;05 - 00;22;42;08
Speaker 1
You know? And if you want to try hard things, you're going to follow a lot. So, Yeah. So that's where it becomes more important to.

00;22;42;11 - 00;22;45;11
Speaker 2
And the other thing is like if you place a piece of gear.

00;22;45;13 - 00;23;10;02
Speaker 1
And but you don't want to fall anyway, you're kind of like mentally free soloing, which I think a lot of people do. Then you kind of carry that gear all the way up the mountain for nothing and then wasted your time placing it and then wasted your time making your partner belay you. So if you're going to place a piece of gear like trust it, and if you don't think it's good, then place another one to back it up.

00;23;10;04 - 00;23;18;09
Speaker 1
Like, I don't know, like whenever I'm climbing, that something I do all the time is I'll place two pieces. If I'm at a good stance and I think it's going to be a hard sequence, you know, ahead of me.

00;23;18;09 - 00;23;23;13
Speaker 1


00;23;23;15 - 00;23;29;20
Speaker 1
Neither. Yesterday. Yeah.

00;23;29;22 - 00;23;30;08
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;23;37;29 - 00;23;57;20
Speaker 1
I'd say some of it. Yeah. Like I would say, free soloing to me is like, you follow, you die. And I'd say there's not often during that climb where I think if I fell, I would die. And definitely not often where I would like probably or definitely die. Like almost never.

00;23;57;22 - 00;23;59;14
Speaker 2
I think there's a few spots where if I fell.

00;23;59;14 - 00;24;07;12
Speaker 1
I might die, but probably but most of the time is like, there's definitely a lot of time where if I fell, I'd probably get hurt,

00;24;07;12 - 00;24;13;25
Speaker 1
but I yeah.

00;24;13;28 - 00;24;20;29
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;24;21;02 - 00;24;23;27
Speaker 1
Birdwatching.

00;24;24;29 - 00;24;31;14
Speaker 2
I've already got lined up before I decided this, because the thing about it is, I realize one of the biggest gifts, one of the biggest gifts that climbing has given me.

00;24;31;16 - 00;24;36;27
Speaker 1
Is spending so much time in a place like Yosemite, in a place like, you know, the desert and.

00;24;37;00 - 00;24;38;11
Speaker 2
Place, all these beautiful places.

00;24;38;16 - 00;24;40;14
Speaker 1
And I live in a van and day after day, you.

00;24;40;14 - 00;24;41;14
Speaker 2
Know, most tourists come.

00;24;41;14 - 00;24;51;24
Speaker 1
To the valley. They come for three days, they hike to Half Dome, they take some pictures, the waterfalls and awesome. They go home. The Taylor, you know, family about it for the rest of their life until they have grandkids, and then they bring them back for another two days and then. Great.

00;24;51;26 - 00;24;57;23
Speaker 2
But I've been here for, I don't know, hundreds and hundreds of days. And to me, that's such a joy is waking up.

00;24;57;26 - 00;25;11;01
Speaker 1
Having coffee and looking outside the window and being like, oh, wait, I mean, it's a mini valley, like one of the most beautiful places on the planet. And I want to come back here day after day. So I'm like, what's another activity I could do if I didn't have legs? Or, you know, I don't know if I was in a wheelchair.

00;25;11;01 - 00;25;17;12
Speaker 1
I'm like, yeah, I'm going to get some good binoculars and learn how to draw. Yeah. And birdwatching.

00;25;17;12 - 00;25;21;26
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's it. That's the sport. And I'd be psyched. And that's the thing.

00;25;21;27 - 00;25;25;11
Speaker 2
I'd be really psyched about birds. Yeah, that's what it all comes down to.

00;25;25;18 - 00;25;28;12
Speaker 1
Like I said, just being psyched. Yeah.

00;25;28;12 - 00;25;30;21
Speaker 2
that. I like that mentality. I think, you know.

00;25;31;21 - 00;25;45;12
Speaker 2
You can't, like, you can't attach too much of your identity. You want to one thing because, you know, like, climbing could kill you or climbing could no longer be something you can do anymore. And if you've wrapped up your entire identity into the sport and it's taken away from you can be really devastating. So it's important

00;25;46;05 - 00;25;49;07
Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

00;25;54;21 - 00;25;56;11
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;25;56;14 - 00;25;57;29
Speaker 2
So I still work.

00;25;57;29 - 00;26;18;26
Speaker 1
With the research center that I, was affiliated with in grad school. Yeah. So I help them. So basically, whenever they need help with some papers, I help them with that. So. Completely flexible. Yeah, exactly. Which is the great. Like, someone emailed you something, says, hey, can you, like, work on this? And it's like, okay. Yeah,

00;26;19;23 - 00;26;29;17
Speaker 2
How long do you expect? How long do you expect that workload to be like that? Like, do you have, like, an end goal where you're like, okay, I need to go to work now, or you're just like, I'm riding it out for as long as I

00;26;29;25 - 00;26;49;10
Speaker 1
I'm kind of writing it out for as long as I can. Yeah. That's like like I've managed to find a balance right now where I'm, you know, able to live this way. And every season, you know, that I start and not just every season, but every day I'm like psyched. And I have, like, things I want to do in places I want to go.

00;26;49;10 - 00;27;16;24
Speaker 1
And people I want to see. So as long as yeah, as long as I'm psyched, then I'm going to keep doing it. And if not, then yeah, I'll probably find a job that's, you know, more motivating to me than whatever life I'm living now because I certainly haven't, like, counted out, I don't know, working in pharma, biotech or something like that, you know, in whatever position or, you know, level.

00;27;16;24 - 00;27;40;03
Speaker 1
It's like, you know, I, like my, my dad, honestly, he he was in the Army band when I was a kid, like, he was a trombone player, and then he went to college at the same time that I did. And, got a degree in chemistry. Actually, he was one year behind me, so I used to tutor him in some classes, and now he works at, like, a nuclear research site as a chemist.

00;27;40;03 - 00;28;05;20
Speaker 1
So I, you know, I, I, you know, someone like that who's had so many distinct chapters in their life, you know, or even Tanner, he was in the, the Navy and now he's doing this and, you know, it's like, that's that's the way life unfolds. And it's like you meet people, you go places, you do things. And I think if you're inspired and motivated, then you'll always find, wherever you are is the right place.

00;28;05;23 - 00;28;16;26
Speaker 1
You know, it's kind of like some cliche motivational poster, but it's totally true. So.

00;28;16;28 - 00;28;19;10
Speaker 1
Exactly.

00;28;19;10 - 00;28;26;20
Speaker 2
you're doing, you need to find out why. And you need to figure out, you know, and, you know, psych level doesn't mean like, you know, you don't have to have a job.

00;28;26;20 - 00;28;41;28
Speaker 2
It means it doesn't mean you have to be like, you know, free time or have tons of money. Like psych is different for everybody. You know, like, for me, psych is running the show and meeting all these cool people and, like, building a brand like that's psych for me. And it's a lot of fucking work. But, I love every second of it, you know?

00;28;41;29 - 00;28;43;08
Speaker 2
And it's like, it's about finding what

00;28;44;21 - 00;28;51;12
Speaker 1
Yeah. And at the end of the day, people do what they want to do. You know, it's like.

00;28;51;15 - 00;28;54;06
Speaker 2
Which know a lot of people have different.

00;28;54;06 - 00;28;58;14
Speaker 1
Yeah. Circumstances.

00;28;58;16 - 00;29;00;29
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Which which was which is where I was.

00;29;00;29 - 00;29;03;05
Speaker 1
Where I was actually heading.

00;29;03;07 - 00;29;05;09
Speaker 2
Because I remember I read,

00;29;05;11 - 00;29;21;05
Speaker 1
Dave McLeod's book ten and nine and Ten climbers is like a popular book he wrote. And one of the things he talked about is people saying, oh, I want to climb hard. I want to climb nine eight, sport. I want to do all these things. This is but but then they have a job that makes them work 60 hours a week and they live somewhere where it rains, you know, all the time.

00;29;21;05 - 00;29;36;26
Speaker 1
And if you don't have a climbing gym and you don't have sunny crags, it's like, well, you want that job, you want that career. If you want to, you know, climb hard, then maybe you would, I don't know, go for broke and work in a cafe and.

00;29;36;28 - 00;29;41;18
Speaker 2
And climb hard. But you want the life you have. You know, if you if you want to.

00;29;41;20 - 00;29;59;01
Speaker 1
Live in a van and, you know, be somewhere different all the time and, I don't know, sit here with the fans leaking because it's raining and try to find a different bathroom to use every morning and whatever, you know, but then be able to climb rad walls in Yosemite all the time, then you know, that's what I want.

00;29;59;01 - 00;30;00;21
Speaker 1
So that's what I'm doing. But if someone wanted.

00;30;00;21 - 00;30;02;14
Speaker 2
To have a house.

00;30;02;17 - 00;30;24;17
Speaker 1
And a family and, financial, you know, net and all these things, then that's a whole different lifestyle and that, you know, I can't choose those two paths at the same time. So I'm choosing this one because I'm I'm psyched on it. And yeah, maybe there's a point where I'll want to have a house and a family and the financial net and all of that, and I can, you know, choose that path.

00;30;24;17 - 00;30;27;10
Speaker 1
But, yeah, I don't know. This is what I want to do.

00;30;27;10 - 00;30;31;18
Speaker 2
So this is what I'm doing is kind of what it comes down to. Yeah.

00;30;31;18 - 00;30;45;20
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that's. It's super important. I think it's important to say to, like, there are sacrifices being made. You know, I think it's, you know, I'll use tantra, for example, just like with because he has, like, this digital presence. Everyone's like, oh, how do you climb so much? Oh, you must be, you know, blah blah blah.

00;30;45;21 - 00;31;03;19
Speaker 2
It's like there's all these questions people have in their mind. They're like, oh, how do they do it? And it's like, well, they don't, you know, they found a balance where they've found they've lived. They've lowered their, you know, expenses enough where they don't need a large income to support their life. And then they've got, you know, a van and they live on the road and they make sacrifices in

00;31;04;18 - 00;31;05;17
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;31;13;02 - 00;31;25;21
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's what I mean. I meet people all the time at the crag who are like, they're for the weekend. They're like, oh, I'm so. I'm so jealous that, you know, you're able to climb this many days a week and all this. And I'm like.

00;31;25;24 - 00;31;44;02
Speaker 2
Yeah, but you have, like, a really sweet house and like, you know, three kids that are going to go to college and it's like, you know, that's a whole different thing. Like, oh, are you sure you're jealous of climbing a few extra days a week? You know, probably if you had to choose your kids and stuff versus like a couple extra days on the crag.

00;31;44;05 - 00;31;57;01
Speaker 1
You probably be happy with the life you have, but you think you want something then other than you do. I guess the grass is greener, but it comes down to but.

00;31;57;03 - 00;31;58;18
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;31;58;18 - 00;32;07;19
Speaker 2
those things are just I don't know. So that's something that like, it's so easy to want those things. And they mean so much. But at the same time.

00;32;08;04 - 00;32;26;02
Speaker 2
They also, like you said, they, they're sacrifices to be made, like, there's also value. And like, for me at least, like having, like you said, a financial net and, like, building something, that I can fall back on or, you know, for me personally, like building something like, like a business or building something is something that's super important to me.

00;32;26;02 - 00;32;49;06
Speaker 2
And so, like, there's we all choose our paths. That's cool man. Really cool. Really psyched that you're, you know, living your full life and you're super passionate about what you're doing. That's super important. Let's see. Okay, so partners like you climb. I think climbing a lot is is great. I think climbing partners can be an issue.

00;32;49;08 - 00;32;56;18
Speaker 2
In terms, especially once you start climbing really hard. Like, how do you circumnavigate kind of finding partners for the objectives that you're

00;32;57;06 - 00;33;25;10
Speaker 1
Yeah. So it definitely helps if you have, like, you know, a short list of, like, go tos, you know, like Tanner. And I've done a bunch of stuff together, and any time we're both, you know, free, we're doing what we're doing now, like, in the same place, getting after it. But, one thing that I've done pretty much since I've had the van is climb with all kinds of different people, you know, like I've climbed with a bunch of people off a mountain project, or people you meet in parking lot of camp for.

00;33;25;12 - 00;33;28;07
Speaker 2
Well, here's here's the way, here's the.

00;33;28;07 - 00;33;48;19
Speaker 1
What I always tell everyone. Like, I want to find a partner, but I want to find a good partner more than I want to go climbing. Because if you just are so desperate to go climbing with a partner that you just like anyone who's willing to climb with you on Saturday, you just go out with them. You may or may not have like a good time.

00;33;48;21 - 00;33;56;16
Speaker 1
So I. It depends on the objective, but and it depends on the mood that I'm in. Like for.

00;33;56;16 - 00;34;02;26
Speaker 2
Me I say I'm either if you know, if I'm just if I'm not sure about someone and I'll say, okay.

00;34;02;26 - 00;34;11;02
Speaker 1
One of two things, we'll go to the CRI and I either have a partner or I'm going to be a guide for some cool, probably cool person for a day.

00;34;11;05 - 00;34;15;21
Speaker 2
So, you know, and if I have to teach them how to belay and just like free solo up.

00;34;15;21 - 00;34;16;16
Speaker 1
Everything and like.

00;34;16;21 - 00;34;24;17
Speaker 2
Really scarily like, you know, let go at the anchor, like making sure they have their hand on the break, then, you know, I can do that for a few pitches. Like I said, I can just be a.

00;34;24;17 - 00;34;38;28
Speaker 1
Guide for a few pitches and, and hang out and, and probably they're a cool person and I can teach them something. And teaching is always really rewarding, you know, like sharing that. But I mean, that's only happened a couple times ever, where it's like someone I was like, okay, I thought, you know, I wasn't sure.

00;34;39;03 - 00;34;41;21
Speaker 2
Because usually if you talk to someone and they're.

00;34;41;21 - 00;34;49;11
Speaker 1
Like, yeah, I've been climbing into somebody for 30 years and I've done 15 routes on El Cap and it's like, okay, I don't really care. Just here's the rope, let's go.

00;34;49;14 - 00;34;50;27
Speaker 2
You know, most people.

00;34;50;27 - 00;34;57;09
Speaker 1
If they have a certain level of experience, it doesn't really matter. You know what kind of conversation. You can just trust them.

00;34;57;09 - 00;35;09;07
Speaker 2
someone, someone like. Oh, I've done this, I've done this, I'm so good. And then you get to the crag and it's like very clearly that they don't know what they're doing or they're climbing dangerously and it's like becomes like a very uncomfortable situation

00;35;10;02 - 00;35;14;01
Speaker 2
Know I don't think I've ever met like a liar. Unlike a partner finder.

00;35;14;01 - 00;35;14;20
Speaker 1
Type of thing.

00;35;14;25 - 00;35;17;09
Speaker 2
I think I've met some people who maybe.

00;35;17;12 - 00;35;24;02
Speaker 1
Yeah, like I said, like I set up and I'm like, yeah, 50 over 50. Like, they're either going to be a good partner. I'm going to be like a.

00;35;24;02 - 00;35;27;00
Speaker 2
Guide for a day. But I don't think I've ever.

00;35;27;00 - 00;35;34;23
Speaker 1
Met someone who's like, yeah, just straightforward lied and, like fooled me or something. So and that and.

00;35;34;23 - 00;35;36;07
Speaker 2
And at the end of the day, like, I also.

00;35;36;07 - 00;35;40;08
Speaker 1
Like I was saying about, not being so desperate to climb.

00;35;40;11 - 00;35;41;11
Speaker 2
Like, if I'm not in the mood.

00;35;41;11 - 00;36;04;18
Speaker 1
To, like, maybe be a guide. And I don't find someone who I think is, like almost guaranteed to be solid, then I just will go for a hike or I'll go top rope something, you know, by myself, or I'll go whatever. I don't know. Yeah, I'll find some five zero or cool fourth class ridge and go scrambling or whatever, like or I'm in the, I don't know, like find a nice coffee shop and I'll read a book.

00;36;04;20 - 00;36;09;14
Speaker 2
Like I don't care. You know, that's that's the thing. Like there's so many things to do in life.

00;36;09;14 - 00;36;20;06
Speaker 1
Especially when you're in a van and like a beautiful place like Yosemite or Sierra or wherever, like, I don't need to, like, go climb with someone who I think seems like a douche bag, like on the internet, you know.

00;36;20;08 - 00;36;24;29
Speaker 2
At the end of the day. And I think they seem cool and I don't know about their climbing. Like I said, I'll just get to meet them and at least.

00;36;24;29 - 00;36;45;26
Speaker 1
Hang out with the new friend or whatever. Whatever happens, happens. And I remember once I met this guy in the parking lot of camp four, and he was like, I forget exactly why we picked this route. But he said he was like, interested in it, face climbing, and he wasn't much of a crack climber. And he wanted. And I was telling him about this, a middle cathedral called Stoners Highway.

00;36;45;29 - 00;37;00;20
Speaker 1
And it's like a 510 classic route. Things from the 70s, it's like, really run out, like, I don't know, like huge middle cathedral face climbing run outs. And I was like, yeah, if you're down for that, you know, we can go. And he was like, yeah, yeah, I can. He's like, I can 511 faced a 510.

00;37;00;20 - 00;37;02;16
Speaker 1
Shouldn't be that bad. And

00;37;02;18 - 00;37;05;01
Speaker 2
I said, okay, but if not, like I can also lead the whole route.

00;37;05;04 - 00;37;08;26
Speaker 1
You know, whatever. So we get up there and.

00;37;08;29 - 00;37;18;20
Speaker 2
He saw the first pitch. He followed it, and he was like, you know, I think I'm fine following today. I was like, okay, cool. So we climb the whole route. He had a great day, and he might be one of the first,

00;37;18;23 - 00;37;23;10
Speaker 1
Five, ten climbers to ever come to Yosemite on their very first route, be Stoners Highway.

00;37;23;12 - 00;37;29;06
Speaker 2
So, you know, it's just like, kind of a as far as five tens go, kind of.

00;37;29;06 - 00;37;29;18
Speaker 1
Like a known.

00;37;29;18 - 00;37;45;07
Speaker 2
Scary route. So, yeah. But yeah, that's kind of how the whole partner finder thing goes with with the randos. And yeah, I met him in just the parking lot of camp for it was like 8 p.m.. Actually, I that was I was there early that.

00;37;45;07 - 00;38;01;16
Speaker 1
Season and I remember it was like not a lot of climbers there. I think it was September and I drove in, I drove straight down from Canada like the day before, and I got in late at night after dark, pulled into the meadow and met some dude, who was hanging out there. I didn't know, and we went and did like some single pitch the next day.

00;38;01;16 - 00;38;16;09
Speaker 1
And then that night I met that guy we did Stoners Highway with. And then if you'd like, like a week later, a bunch of friends were here. It was October, and everybody was raging. But, yeah.

00;38;16;12 - 00;38;22;22
Speaker 2
Somewhere in between. Yeah, probably less so. So yeah. Yeah.

00;38;22;22 - 00;38;26;22
Speaker 2
passion for climbing drives you to to kind of break out of that a little bit and meet

00;38;26;27 - 00;38;28;16
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I like.

00;38;28;16 - 00;38;31;17
Speaker 1
People, but in, limited quantities.

00;38;31;19 - 00;38;34;14
Speaker 2
Yeah, I would say I'm somebody who's like,

00;38;34;17 - 00;38;39;20
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like I can't do, like, socializing all day, every day. I would, I totally burnout.

00;38;39;22 - 00;38;39;29
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;38;39;29 - 00;38;43;15
Speaker 1
So a little bit per day I'm.

00;38;43;15 - 00;38;49;17
Speaker 2
A little bit per week is good a little distance. Yeah. That's the one thing I'll take. Mallinson. Yeah.

00;38;49;17 - 00;38;59;04
Speaker 2
though. Now you got a good perspective, man. I think, there's a lot of at least. Maybe it's just my own personal bias, but I have. I've had kind of poor experiences with, like, meeting people online

00;39;00;07 - 00;39;01;09
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;39;05;04 - 00;39;06;25
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;39;21;21 - 00;39;23;25
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;39;31;18 - 00;39;49;13
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, that that definitely changes things. Because like I said, if you end up realizing like, oh, I'm kind of going to be a guide today, you're probably not be able to get on your project or whatever. Like, yeah, the one thing you're stoked on, you're going to have to do another lap on the moderate you've done a bunch of times and, and, you know, try to help this person, you know, get through the day without dying.

00;39;49;16 - 00;39;51;05
Speaker 2
So that's.

00;39;51;05 - 00;40;05;03
Speaker 2
think it's like the on the topic of mentorship, I think the fact that you're open to doing that and you have done that, I think is super good for the community. And I think that person that climbed with you is probably going to remember that for the rest of their life. And who knows, they might be on the show in five years and just be like, well, who was your mentor?

00;40;05;03 - 00;40;05;17
Speaker 2
Like, oh, there

00;40;06;19 - 00;40;10;25
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. You know, that's that's it. And like I said, there are a couple people like that.

00;40;10;25 - 00;40;28;05
Speaker 1
Who, did the same thing for me in the beginning. So, yeah, it's definitely feels good to give back. And it feels good. You know, I talk about being psyched and, like, it feels good to share that. And, like, just being up there and having fun. That's the other thing is,

00;40;28;05 - 00;40;41;03
Speaker 1
climbing is so much fun. And sometimes in the beginning stages, it's scary and you're uncertain if you're doing things right and you get so concerned with, like, not dying.

00;40;41;06 - 00;40;47;06
Speaker 2
You know, little things like that that, you forget that you chose to do this because it's like.

00;40;47;06 - 00;40;48;29
Speaker 1
One of the greatest things you could possibly be.

00;40;48;29 - 00;40;51;01
Speaker 2
Doing. And whenever I'm like, up on.

00;40;51;01 - 00;40;57;24
Speaker 1
El Cap, like with Tanner and, like climbing some sick, like, five, ten hand crack, you know, and there's.

00;40;57;24 - 00;41;03;27
Speaker 2
Just, like, thousands of feet of air under you. I'm always hooting and hollering and I've got, like, dance music playing in.

00;41;03;27 - 00;41;05;04
Speaker 1
My back pocket.

00;41;05;07 - 00;41;21;05
Speaker 2
And I'm like, you know, one thing I always say, I'm like, what a life. I'm like, how are we able to do this? Like, if you ever climb El Cap with me, you'll hear me constantly, like, what the hell? Like. Like why? Like, why are we doing this? This is absurd. Like, what? A way to live. Just like monkeying up these walls every day.

00;41;21;07 - 00;41;24;09
Speaker 2
And it's like. And it just brings me so much joy,

00;41;24;09 - 00;41;28;06
Speaker 2
you know? And then you, you know, sometimes see, like a beginner.

00;41;28;07 - 00;41;35;24
Speaker 1
You know, climber. And they're like, so gripped or concerned they like, don't get to experience that joy.

00;41;35;27 - 00;41;37;14
Speaker 2
So if I climb with someone and I can like.

00;41;37;14 - 00;41;40;04
Speaker 1
Share that with them, to me that's like one of the most rewarding things.

00;41;40;04 - 00;41;42;14
Speaker 2
And even two days ago I climb.

00;41;42;14 - 00;41;50;15
Speaker 1
Nutcracker and I, there was this guy climbing the last pitch and we, I topped out around the same time and I was like, chatting him. And he was.

00;41;50;15 - 00;41;58;15
Speaker 2
Like, oh. And he was like, oh yeah, he's live in Georgia. And I'm like, oh, I went to is like, I went to UGA and we're just chit chatting and sitting, you know, on the last pitch, which is a little bit scary. It's kind of.

00;41;58;15 - 00;42;00;23
Speaker 1
Slab. Yeah. There's some like small holes.

00;42;00;26 - 00;42;01;26
Speaker 2
And I was just like chit chatting.

00;42;01;26 - 00;42;06;14
Speaker 1
With him like as he was leading. And, and then I was talking to the top and he's like, dude, thanks so much.

00;42;06;14 - 00;42;19;05
Speaker 2
It was like you were like in such a good mood. And because, like, I was like really gripped and all of a sudden I forgot I was gripped and I just climbed to the top. And the funny thing about that pitch is it's pretty low angle. Like you can probably like, you know, it's like, but if you get in your head, you're.

00;42;19;05 - 00;42;25;08
Speaker 1
Like, oh, I don't know about that gear. I don't know about this. But then it's like, you just get out of your head and you can just climb and enjoy it and look around and be like.

00;42;25;15 - 00;42;25;25
Speaker 2
Well.

00;42;25;25 - 00;42;46;23
Speaker 1
We're above the trees and there's Half Dome and there's no cap. And we're like, in one of the most beautiful places in the world. And like, what a joyous experience. Like, what a bummer to to lose out on that element of climbing because, you know, you know, just because you're, you're, you're uncertain of your situation and. Yeah.

00;42;46;25 - 00;42;54;15
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

00;42;54;17 - 00;42;56;28
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;42;56;28 - 00;43;01;08
Speaker 2
maybe it's the first time touching granite. It's like, that's when like the sensory overload.

00;43;01;08 - 00;43;23;01
Speaker 2
Right. And there's a risk involved and it's like too much to focus on. But I think there's a trick there. Like there is this level of fun and relaxation and meditation that comes from climbing. When you are familiar enough with the terrain where you can just relax and just like, enjoy it for what it is. I for sure personally, like when I climb, whenever I get to like a good rest, I'll just like even if it's just like a bomb or a hand jam,

00;43;25;11 - 00;43;28;19
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00;43;28;21 - 00;43;41;28
Speaker 2
That's what it's all about, man. Yeah, yeah. Like, if you don't laugh a few times, like, while you're out climbing all day, like, I don't know. Come on. What are you doing? Yeah, yeah, well, one of my favorite quotes of all time.

00;43;42;00 - 00;43;43;13
Speaker 1
Out of the climbing literature.

00;43;43;13 - 00;43;48;24
Speaker 2
Is Peter Croft's incredible, work of work of literary excellence.

00;43;48;24 - 00;43;53;24
Speaker 1
The good, the great and the awesome, the Eastern Sierra guidebook. And,

00;43;53;27 - 00;43;55;16
Speaker 2
One of the stories is, I think it's.

00;43;55;16 - 00;43;59;25
Speaker 1
His introduction for Mount Humphreys. He's like. He's like, one of the great.

00;43;59;25 - 00;44;01;20
Speaker 2
Things living in Bishop is the alpenglow.

00;44;01;20 - 00;44;06;03
Speaker 1
On the big peaks, like Humphreys in Mount Tom. It's like west of Bishop Hills. Like, if that.

00;44;06;03 - 00;44;20;12
Speaker 2
Doesn't get you psyched, then there's a bowling alley in the end of town and a and A and a golf course behind the bakery. And like, I just, I just that's it. Like, you know, looking up in the mountains and seeing the alpenglow and seeing these things and knowing you can.

00;44;20;12 - 00;44;22;07
Speaker 1
Run up, and, and like.

00;44;22;09 - 00;44;29;00
Speaker 2
Live your life that way doesn't get you psyched. Like, I don't know, man. Come on. Yeah, yeah. No.

00;44;34;14 - 00;44;35;02
Speaker 1
Exactly.

00;44;35;02 - 00;44;38;05
Speaker 2
And it's just such a such a privilege.

00;44;38;05 - 00;44;51;15
Speaker 1
To be able to experience that and, like. Yeah, it really is, to to be able to play in that playground and at all and especially like, like what I'm doing, like, every day. So.

00;44;51;15 - 00;45;10;00
Speaker 2
if you were to say, like, I don't want to, like, steer this in the wrong direction too much, but, like, the word privilege, like, what would you say the biggest barrier is for people in general in terms of, like, the sport of climbing in the mountains, like, is it mental? Is it financial? Is it upbringing?

00;45;10;00 - 00;45;14;22
Speaker 2
Is it exposure to their community? Like where do you feel the biggest barrier is for people?

00;45;16;22 - 00;45;19;14
Speaker 1
If you've been enjoying the climbing majority, please rate.

00;45;19;14 - 00;45;22;27
Speaker 2
And review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00;45;25;18 - 00;45;26;12
Speaker 2
It's probably.

00;45;26;12 - 00;45;55;28
Speaker 1
Confidence, a little bit mental and a little bit, maybe just the community, because I've definitely met people who maybe get into climbing somewhere where gym climbing or sport climbing is popular. And then they come out to California and they're checking out, you know, the Valley. And it's just like, seems like this big, intimidating, scary thing, which it can be.

00;45;55;28 - 00;46;10;29
Speaker 1
The walls are big, but, you also kind of just have to if you want to do it. I think it's just possible to do it to, you know, to go for it, you know, and I don't know, I hate like, I hate it when people.

00;46;10;29 - 00;46;22;02
Speaker 2
Are like, oh, you should just do what I did. But like, honestly, what I did, like, I just, I started little I did a bunch of easy stuff and read a bunch of books and.

00;46;22;10 - 00;46;43;03
Speaker 1
Learned from as many people who were willing to, to go out with me for one day or half a day and, and just kind of made it happen. You know, and, and thanks to, you know, the people who put those resources out there and thanks to the people who, you know, showed me, you know, how to how to lead a pitch.

00;46;43;05 - 00;47;00;10
Speaker 1
But, I think if someone's really inspired and, and motivated and confident, you know, they can make it happen. But it's definitely intimidating and takes a bit of confidence to, like, see something like El Cap and say, like, let's go climb that.

00;47;00;13 - 00;47;01;04
Speaker 2
Or to see something.

00;47;01;04 - 00;47;10;01
Speaker 1
Like, you know, a single pitch trad route without any bolts on it. Maybe you've only sport climbed and say, oh, I'm going to climb that, and I'm going to trust if.

00;47;10;01 - 00;47;12;05
Speaker 2
I fall, I'm not gonna, you know, fall 30.

00;47;12;05 - 00;47;32;11
Speaker 1
Meters to my death. So yeah.

00;47;32;14 - 00;47;38;12
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;47;38;14 - 00;47;45;21
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;47;45;23 - 00;47;54;27
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;47;55;00 - 00;47;58;00
Speaker 1
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

00;47;58;02 - 00;48;00;11
Speaker 2
Yes, I'll say it exactly.

00;48;00;11 - 00;48;10;05
Speaker 1
And that's the thing. Like I was in grad school. I wasn't trying to go to Aria and spend thousands of dollars on climbing gear, you know, like, which, I don't know, some people think is necessary, but I don't know, I found.

00;48;10;05 - 00;48;14;08
Speaker 2
Someone, I found someone on some Craigslist somewhere, and he sold me.

00;48;14;08 - 00;48;30;07
Speaker 1
Like, eight cams and, like, 15 nuts and some, like, quick drawers with these, like, big fat, like, body burners and a bunch of, like, nylon slings. And that was my rack for, like, the first year I climbed. And I think I gave him $120 plus, like flat rate shipping.

00;48;30;20 - 00;48;33;09
Speaker 2
Were they stolen?

00;48;33;09 - 00;48;43;12
Speaker 2
yeah, that's that's actually maybe true, but, yeah. But I got really good at placing nuts because I had I think it was six cans or something.

00;48;43;14 - 00;48;54;13
Speaker 1
And then I maybe bought a couple more cans, a few more, like I was like, I should get some smaller ones because I only had nuts for the small sizes. So I've had a few, like old Matthias Hams and yeah.

00;48;54;16 - 00;48;57;29
Speaker 2
Yeah, like it's like I said, and then like a year later I was like, I should get some more.

00;48;57;29 - 00;49;09;04
Speaker 1
So I got my second rack, which was from someone on Mount and Project for. Yeah, same thing. I think my first double rack with everything I think I added up my average was like less than $20 a cam.

00;49;09;06 - 00;49;15;13
Speaker 2
You know, they they weren't.

00;49;15;15 - 00;49;29;09
Speaker 2
Properly. Yeah. But also like they were they weren't like ultra lights with, you know, nanowire liners. They were some yeah some junky stuff. But I'm still here I don't know. Yeah.

00;49;29;19 - 00;49;30;21
Speaker 1
Hell, yeah.

00;49;30;24 - 00;49;48;05
Speaker 2
In terms of, like, progression. Oh, I see this. How do I ask this question? In terms of grades and kind of like your style of climbing. Now, could you just round us out real quick because, like, I usually do research on our guests before, you know, they come on the show, and all I could find on you was your

00;49;49;14 - 00;49;57;11
Speaker 2
Okay.

00;49;57;13 - 00;50;08;17
Speaker 2
Okay. Yeah.

00;50;08;19 - 00;50;17;00
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I will say the only 513 a that I've actually read pointed was like a soft sport.

00;50;17;00 - 00;50;30;14
Speaker 1
Climb in Mexico. But I've also never spent more than about 3 or 4 days trying a route. And.

00;50;30;17 - 00;50;32;00
Speaker 1
I think so, and I.

00;50;32;00 - 00;50;32;29
Speaker 2
Also.

00;50;33;01 - 00;50;34;10
Speaker 1
I don't yeah.

00;50;34;13 - 00;50;37;25
Speaker 2
I've, I like doing things that maybe take a couple days.

00;50;37;25 - 00;50;57;00
Speaker 1
Like that's fun. Like, trying hard is really fun. I've definitely done a lot more of that in the last year than I used to. But for a long time, for me, it was just going up and just climbing. Cool stuff, you know, like my life goal was to climb, Astro man. And I did that the first fall that I had the van.

00;50;57;02 - 00;51;11;29
Speaker 1
So I was like, oh, cool. You know, maybe someday I'll do something even harder. I don't know, you know? And now I was like, unsighted. A bunch of, you know, easier twelves in the valley and stuff, which is cool, but I've honestly maybe read punted. I usually read.

00;51;12;07 - 00;51;22;06
Speaker 2
Like a letter or two harder than I on sight. So I guess that just means that I don't. I don't project that much. So that's why on the Mountain Project thing, I just put 13 over everything cause I was like, that's like about.

00;51;22;06 - 00;51;34;08
Speaker 1
As hard as I'll try. Like, I'm down to try, like something that's hard if it's safe, you know, I'm not going to try a 13 eight with the, you know, super run out. But, I enjoy trying hard.

00;51;34;08 - 00;51;37;19
Speaker 2
And I also don't mind not sending things.

00;51;37;22 - 00;51;52;15
Speaker 1
That's the other thing. Like, like last year there was a yeah, a route here that I tried a few times. And I went out there for a number of days. And I remember whenever I first went there, there were like quite a few moves I could hardly do. And then I went out there a few times and I was like flowing.

00;51;52;15 - 00;52;10;14
Speaker 1
I would, I like one hung a few times and had such a good experience on it, just like climbing really well. And then I was climbing up some other stuff and I was like, I should go back to that one. I was like, you know, I had a good time on that though. Like, I didn't feel that motivated to go back because on the one hand, I wanted to send it and say like.

00;52;10;14 - 00;52;21;18
Speaker 2
Oh, I, I sent this thing. But on the other hand, I had fun and like, it was cool and I was like, climb and other stuff. So I just didn't really care. Like I didn't feel the need to.

00;52;21;21 - 00;52;37;01
Speaker 1
Do it to, I don't know, to say that I did it and it's just like, yeah, I'm just like, not that I guess outcome oriented. It's like had a good experience and I was happy and. Yeah.

00;52;37;17 - 00;52;40;25
Speaker 2
And there's also so many climbs. It's, like, really hard to just get stuck

00;52;41;08 - 00;52;54;24
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. So but it's fun to try hard. So for me like project ING or whatever, it's just about like tapping into that. Try hard. So more than like, I guess tapping into the.

00;52;54;26 - 00;52;58;02
Speaker 2
You know, the success in the end. So if I'm trying hard on some rate somewhere.

00;52;58;06 - 00;53;02;26
Speaker 1
Whatever the grade is, you know, there's, you know, there's plenty of five nines.

00;53;02;26 - 00;53;07;07
Speaker 2
That are pretty damn hard, you know, so I just don't really care that.

00;53;07;07 - 00;53;30;06
Speaker 1
Much about the grades and the fact I was, I don't know, 25. I'm like, okay, I'm never going to like, be an elite level, like, you know, difficulty climber. I'm just like, climbing cool stuff. And it's cool. And I get to try harder and I'm pretty happy. But it's also pretty fun to, I don't know, climb, you know, a thousand, you know, whatever, 3000ft of five, ten cracks and fall on camp like we do on the earth.

00;53;30;06 - 00;53;36;11
Speaker 2
So, you know, like, yeah, it's just fun to climb. I'm 32.

00;53;36;13 - 00;53;45;19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;53;45;21 - 00;54;03;19
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00;54;03;22 - 00;54;15;26
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.

00;54;15;29 - 00;54;34;21
Speaker 1
Well, like I said, in the beginning, my goal was like to, like, bag a fourth class peak in the Sierra without being scared. I'm, like, learning how to use a rope and, like, you know, I climbed from laps on five, six and five sevens and targets and and, I kind of did that for a few years, and then I kind of worked my way up to kids.

00;54;34;22 - 00;54;51;05
Speaker 1
Joshua Tree, you up to, like, five, nine or so. And also I was like, oh, man, I'm like, climbing hard because five nines like hard shit. I'm like, yeah, I climb like the open book in Turkey. It's been like maybe some ten days, I don't know, Tax Man or something in in Joshua Tree. And I was like, all right.

00;54;51;05 - 00;54;53;11
Speaker 1
Like, yeah, I'm like doing the hard shit. This is.

00;54;53;11 - 00;54;55;00
Speaker 2
Cool. Which, which is cool. Because then when I was on.

00;54;55;00 - 00;55;16;11
Speaker 1
The Five Sevens, I had this margin, which is awesome. And, it's just like, confidence inspiring. And I, you know, I've climbed Cathedral Peak pretty much every year since I started climbing in quite a few years, multiple times, just because I think that's like my favorite rock climb. Honestly. It's just like the perfect climb. It's beautiful. And, that was always my inspiration.

00;55;16;11 - 00;55;17;16
Speaker 2
To do this stuff.

00;55;17;18 - 00;55;40;16
Speaker 1
So then I kind of didn't really understand, like the difficulty aspect of climbing. I mean, from it coming at it from that perspective. And one day and I guess I had started climbing in the gym like my second year of climbing, down in San Diego. I remember I was climbing in the gym and I was talking to the guy I was climbing with there, and he was like, yeah, there's that route that 11 A on Taqi.

00;55;40;17 - 00;55;47;19
Speaker 1
It's the vampire. It's like this famous route. And he was talking about wanting to do it. I was like, yeah, I saw some people climbing that last weekend, you.

00;55;47;19 - 00;56;00;24
Speaker 2
Know, that's so hardcore, like, that's crazy. And then, there was some other dude who was there. I don't even know who it was. Just some dude. He was like, you guys should just go do it. And I was like, what are you talking about? I was like, no, I climb ten a on a good day, that's 11.

00;56;00;27 - 00;56;17;25
Speaker 2
That's like hard. And he was like, but like, there's gear and bolts everywhere. If you don't free it, who cares? He was like, if there's a move you can't do, pull on the cam, place another one and keep climbing. And it just blew my mind. I was like, what? He was like, it's a safe climb. There's cracks, there's bolts.

00;56;17;27 - 00;56;19;00
Speaker 2
It's a safe climb. Like, who.

00;56;19;00 - 00;56;22;14
Speaker 1
Cares if you climb five, five, you know, or whatever. He's like, if you're not.

00;56;22;14 - 00;56;23;12
Speaker 2
Psyched, just go down.

00;56;23;15 - 00;56;24;22
Speaker 1
I was like, oh.

00;56;24;24 - 00;56;40;28
Speaker 2
You mean just try it, just go for it. And he was like, yeah, just so the next day we went up there and we did it. And guess what? We we hung on a bunch of pieces. We pulled on a bunch of, I mean, but we climbed the vampire and we were like sick. And then I tried it again, like a couple months later and I tried again.

00;56;40;28 - 00;56;44;12
Speaker 2
Ended up, you know, sending it. So it was completely.

00;56;44;12 - 00;57;01;29
Speaker 1
Mental, you know, kind of like I was talking about earlier. It's like this confidence thing because I could climb 11. I just didn't know it because to me, mentally I was like a five, nine climber. And then I kind of like labeled myself that way. And those guys climbing hard stuff like 511, I was like, yeah, I don't know.

00;57;01;29 - 00;57;07;29
Speaker 1
It's it's that steep. Things like get pumped. I don't know about that. Like, you have to use your arms.

00;57;08;01 - 00;57;13;23
Speaker 2
And, like, you know, climb in the routes that are like this, big blocks and ledges. You just manual again and.

00;57;13;23 - 00;57;19;10
Speaker 1
Again and then climb a hand crack for ten feet, you mental again. So I did that route.

00;57;19;10 - 00;57;21;04
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I'd say one.

00;57;21;07 - 00;57;29;26
Speaker 1
Win was that that was probably about four years into my climbing. So I'd say I was a five, nine climber for about four years. And then I became an 11 day climber one day.

00;57;29;28 - 00;57;33;12
Speaker 2
And then and then I was like, this is cool. So I started.

00;57;33;12 - 00;57;53;02
Speaker 1
Dabbling in, like, that stuff, you know, when it's safe, when it's cracks. And then I had got the van and I was still kind of like 511 ish, and, I was like 512. That's really hard, though. Like, that's like like legit. Like, surely, you know, that's not for me. Like, that's, I don't know, something else.

00;57;53;04 - 00;57;55;11
Speaker 2
And then but I, I'm like new.

00;57;55;11 - 00;58;13;17
Speaker 1
People who climbed five, 12 and I was like, I don't understand that because all the twelves I had seen looks scary and hard and they're really thin, weird gear. And then I got the van and I drove to, this place that people had told me about that I should check out, called wild Iris in lander, Wyoming.

00;58;13;19 - 00;58;23;02
Speaker 1
And it's like sport climbing. And that was like my first time being in a real sport crag. And. Oh, this. I was like, oh.

00;58;23;02 - 00;58;23;28
Speaker 2
This is a cool 12.

00;58;24;00 - 00;58;27;14
Speaker 1
It has drawers already on it. Let's just like, try it. And I did it in.

00;58;27;14 - 00;58;42;29
Speaker 2
Two tries or no, it was a 12 B it was a 12 B and I did it in two tries and I was like, oh, I guess I'm a 512 climber now. Okay, cool. But also I realized, oh, I guess I'm a sport climber now because, because to me both the climbs were always.

00;58;42;29 - 00;58;47;16
Speaker 1
Like really scary. Like, you know, I climbed in Idlewild and Joshua Tree and Yosemite, and if.

00;58;47;16 - 00;59;04;14
Speaker 2
You see a root with all bolts, like it's either like 513 or like there's bolts every, I don't know, 50ft. So I was like, no, like, I don't want to climb a bolted. That's so messed up, man. Like, the cracks are where it's it. You can place a piece every three feet. You're chilling. Yeah, but then I learned, like.

00;59;04;16 - 00;59;08;18
Speaker 1
Actual sport climbing. And I went to sleep like, after that, and I was like, okay.

00;59;08;22 - 00;59;15;21
Speaker 2
Yeah, I guess I kind of have to 12. Yeah. And then maybe it took a little bit longer to actually.

00;59;15;21 - 00;59;27;22
Speaker 1
Like start, like having that confidence on, granite, like in the Valley and stuff, but yeah, to me it was kind of similar. Yeah. I,

00;59;27;22 - 00;59;41;12
Speaker 1
I've fallen a lot on gear. I've added a lot on gear. I just like shoved my cans in there really deep till my partners, you know, cussing because they can't come out. But I don't care because I like, trust it.

00;59;41;12 - 00;59;45;26
Speaker 1
I was like, guess what? If you have to fiddle for an extra three seconds, but I'm going to like, know that I'm not going.

00;59;45;26 - 00;59;52;29
Speaker 2
To fall and get hurt. You're fiddling buddy, like, yeah, because I've climbed with people where.

00;59;52;29 - 00;59;57;01
Speaker 1
They're all like, I'm like, this is tipped out this down. Like, bro, half your camps are tipped out. They're like.

00;59;57;03 - 00;59;58;15
Speaker 2
Yeah, but your cams are all stuck.

00;59;58;19 - 00;59;59;05
Speaker 1
I'm like, yeah.

00;59;59;05 - 01;00;05;07
Speaker 2
But my cams, it all hold a fall. I've never ripped a piece falling like. And I'm like, I know people have like, grip the bunch of gear. Yeah.

01;00;05;08 - 01;00;08;12
Speaker 1
Because they're worried that they're not going to get it out. And I'm like.

01;00;08;14 - 01;00;12;08
Speaker 2
I've never. I've also never placed a piece so tight that I lost it.

01;00;12;11 - 01;00;14;05
Speaker 1
And if I do lose one someday.

01;00;14;08 - 01;00;20;06
Speaker 2
Well guess what? All these years of not ripping gear that like $60 cam was worth it. Like, yeah.

01;00;20;06 - 01;00;21;10
Speaker 2
So.

01;00;21;19 - 01;00;35;28
Speaker 2
No, it's I mean, it's a lot of a lot of great information you just shared. I think the the fact of, like, having that mental barrier of of of those grades is another like one that's really, really true. It's like it's so easy to just kind of write it off the table and just be like, oh, I can't do that.

01;00;35;28 - 01;00;43;26
Speaker 2
You know, it's really hard. Like, oh, I, you know, five elevens are too dangerous, especially for trad. It's like, oh, it's too dangerous. And I've been victim to that myself. And

01;00;45;01 - 01;00;55;06
Speaker 2
It's not dangerous if it's a split or crack. It's like it's only pumpy. Yeah.

01;00;55;08 - 01;00;57;08
Speaker 1
Nice.

01;00;57;10 - 01;01;04;26
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;01;04;28 - 01;01;30;14
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;01;30;16 - 01;01;37;18
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;01;37;20 - 01;01;43;04
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;01;43;06 - 01;01;58;25
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;01;58;27 - 01;02;19;25
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. It's that confidence and and that's something that, like like related to that, you know, meet a lot of people who are like, newer trad climbers and they like, oh, they climb 512 sport. But, you know, they're like climbing five, seven, five, eight on gear. But the thing about it is five sevens and 5/8. Usually if you fall you're going to like hit a ledge or slide down a slab and get hurt.

01;02;19;28 - 01;02;21;05
Speaker 1
And I'm like.

01;02;21;07 - 01;02;22;22
Speaker 2
No, you need to do it's just go.

01;02;22;22 - 01;02;23;24
Speaker 1
Climb like an 11 eight.

01;02;23;25 - 01;02;28;09
Speaker 2
Or like a 510. So just go pick like, I don't know, go climb up the cookie cliff and just.

01;02;28;09 - 01;02;29;11
Speaker 1
Like, take some zingers.

01;02;29;11 - 01;02;30;08
Speaker 2
And like.

01;02;30;11 - 01;02;31;25
Speaker 1
Realize that these things you're placing.

01;02;31;25 - 01;02;37;11
Speaker 2
Actually work like, yeah, you know, there's, there's and it's.

01;02;37;11 - 01;02;51;18
Speaker 1
Just having that confidence that, yeah, no. Oh, wow. Was it was it an old one?

01;02;51;21 - 01;03;04;08
Speaker 1
Well. Okay.

01;03;04;11 - 01;03;16;02
Speaker 1
Yeah. Hard coach. Yeah.

01;03;16;05 - 01;03;27;26
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;03;27;28 - 01;03;37;03
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;03;37;05 - 01;03;40;12
Speaker 1
Definitely. Yeah.

01;03;40;12 - 01;03;47;18
Speaker 2
of your relationship with Tanner. So I want to dive into, like, I guess, the topic of recognition.

01;03;52;18 - 01;04;03;12
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.

01;04;03;14 - 01;04;10;01
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;04;10;04 - 01;04;13;22
Speaker 2
Okay. Yeah.

01;04;13;24 - 01;04;17;12
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.

01;04;32;06 - 01;04;39;19
Speaker 1
I mean, honestly, not really. I just like to climb, And I think, you know, what hinders that is incredible. Actually, it's kind.

01;04;39;19 - 01;04;40;16
Speaker 2
Of funny because.

01;04;40;18 - 01;04;42;22
Speaker 1
I. I've known him for years, and, like, a.

01;04;42;22 - 01;04;54;26
Speaker 2
Few years, a couple of years ago, we were climbing something, and he was like, oh, by the way, I have this other Instagram account because I think I had just made my Instagram account that year. I think I made it two years ago, like a year after I had the van. This is a bunch of people like.

01;04;54;26 - 01;04;58;00
Speaker 1
Oh, you're out in the van doing all this cool stuff. You should like post pictures on Instagram.

01;04;58;00 - 01;05;01;27
Speaker 2
And and I was like, okay, you're right. Like, it's the 2020 is a.

01;05;02;02 - 01;05;09;20
Speaker 1
Nobody is this Facebook anymore? I'll get an Instagram. So I got an Instagram and I started posting some pictures and and then like, I don't know, a season or two later.

01;05;09;20 - 01;05;12;03
Speaker 2
Tanner's like, by the way, I have this other end because I was just following his.

01;05;12;03 - 01;05;14;10
Speaker 1
Like personal account that has his friends from.

01;05;14;12 - 01;05;33;08
Speaker 2
High school and it's whatever. And I was like, wait, you have an account with like tens of thousands of followers? And I look and it's like, and it's all pictures of me. I was like, it's all pictures of us climbing together. And I was like, oh, wait, shit. Like, all these people have been like, seeing all this shit that like we do together.

01;05;33;11 - 01;05;48;04
Speaker 2
And he was like, yeah, well, you know, or like, yeah, he's like, I don't know, it's kind of embarrassing, but I just like, started sharing stuff and like, you know, it kind of picked up and I was like, yeah, rad. You know, that's good for you. And yeah, he's like shared his van builds and people are stoked on that.

01;05;48;04 - 01;05;52;15
Speaker 2
And you shared the Valley stuff and people are stoked on that. And yeah, it's just like.

01;05;52;18 - 01;05;53;03
Speaker 1
I think it's.

01;05;53;03 - 01;05;53;27
Speaker 2
Cool that he's out there.

01;05;53;27 - 01;06;13;22
Speaker 1
Like sharing the stoke. And yeah, I don't, you know, like I said, I made the Instagram account a couple years ago and I like, I don't know, I have like a couple hundred followers and it's like my friends and family and people from the Valley and yeah, I post on there, but I don't really, care if, you.

01;06;13;22 - 01;06;16;02
Speaker 2
Know, tens of thousands of people see it.

01;06;16;05 - 01;06;29;01
Speaker 1
And, I'm kind of psyched to share the stoke with people at, like, a campfire and camp for drinking coffee in the cafeteria. I don't know, talking shit in the meadow like, for me, that's like.

01;06;29;03 - 01;06;30;00
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;06;30;03 - 01;06;40;27
Speaker 1
And, you know, also sharing. So yeah, it's kind of. Yeah.

01;06;40;29 - 01;06;42;02
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

01;06;42;02 - 01;06;49;05
Speaker 2
That's not the message at all. I think, you know, everybody has their own vision for what they want to do. And, Instagram is tough.

01;06;49;05 - 01;06;55;18
Speaker 2
It's a weird space, you know, it's like it's not for everybody. And it's kind of just like some people stumble upon, I don't know, fame or

01;06;55;23 - 01;06;56;16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;06;56;16 - 01;06;57;23
Speaker 2
something that happens. So,

01;06;57;23 - 01;07;01;11
Speaker 2
on the topic of like your objectives with Tanner, the back hour

01;07;02;12 - 01;07;07;27
Speaker 1
Yeah. The Becker urine is. And John Becker. Yeah. John Becker and Dave, you're in.

01;07;07;27 - 01;07;13;29
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;07;19;17 - 01;07;47;24
Speaker 1
Yeah, I would say it was like a pinnacle climbing experience. It, it was perfect. And I even got off it, like, way above one of the bolts and, like, had to down climb and, it, the thing about that route is that it's kind of legendary and it's iconic. And I said, like I said, when I first started climbing, I was climbing in the valley.

01;07;47;24 - 01;08;05;17
Speaker 1
I was climbing in a cemetery, and I just, like, knew of routes like that, you know, and that was like, definitely one I knew about since I was, you know, running laps on the on the five, six. And I was like, oh, man, that's crazy. Like, like I said, I wouldn't even try the safe 11 a much less like the run out 11 plus or whatever.

01;08;05;19 - 01;08;37;19
Speaker 1
And, I was just like, whoa, that's crazy. You know, because Yosemite just has such an incredible history. And, you know, you have figures like John Bakker who were just doing groundbreaking things in their day. And, you know, he put up this bold route 40 over 40 years ago now. And, the fact that it's just stood there over these decades for for people to walk up to and, and test themselves against, is one of the special things about climbing in a historic place like this.

01;08;37;21 - 01;09;05;19
Speaker 1
And it's a route that I kind of never considered actually doing just because it seems to to legendary to scary to this, to that, to, to really do and yeah. No it's it's intimidating. And I think Wolfgang Gulick, broke his leg for taking some huge fall on it. You know, back in the day. And,

01;09;05;21 - 01;09;08;27
Speaker 2
But Tanner and I, you know, one of our things is like.

01;09;08;29 - 01;09;26;16
Speaker 1
Sometimes whenever we get, like, that earworm and we're like, have an idea? We can't, like, stop thinking about it. And we had talked about it in the past, and he messaged me something about it this summer, because I decided to come to the East Side and do some climbing and to follow me. And he was like, well, he's like, yeah, let's meet up.

01;09;26;16 - 01;09;32;00
Speaker 1
And I was like, yeah, maybe we can do the the back of the year. And I was like, yeah, you know, maybe let's.

01;09;32;00 - 01;09;33;18
Speaker 2
Let's like see how we feel.

01;09;33;21 - 01;09;57;00
Speaker 1
And we got there and we were having just like good month and we climbed a bunch of cool stuff into all of me. And, and we were like kind of stoked or like, okay, let's definitely go for it. So we, yeah, we went up there and just decided to, to go for it. And we. Yeah. On that, that particular second pitch, like, man, it's just one thing I've like realized is it's crazy.

01;09;57;02 - 01;10;08;10
Speaker 1
Like I'm used to like some run outs on some easy climbs and stuff. You know, where you're 20, 30ft above the bolt. But I've never really experienced, like being pumped and like having to figure out, like, difficult sequences.

01;10;08;14 - 01;10;14;08
Speaker 2
When you're 20ft, 30ft above the ball. Because that pitch, there's one bolt a few feet.

01;10;14;08 - 01;10;23;04
Speaker 1
Up that, like, protects the belay. And then there's three more bolts. And I think the whole pitches 40m, it's more or less three bolts and 40m of like, really sustained.

01;10;23;12 - 01;10;25;11
Speaker 2
It's one of those pitches where there's only a few.

01;10;25;11 - 01;10;29;23
Speaker 1
Moves that are easier than, like ten plus, you know, like, you know, like.

01;10;29;23 - 01;10;30;11
Speaker 2
You it's not.

01;10;30;11 - 01;10;42;03
Speaker 1
Like you do two hard moves and you get a jug. It's kind of like move after move, just like questing up this thing, you know, and there's no chalk on it. Hadn't rained like a couple days before. So even. Yeah, even though we found out someone to do it the.

01;10;42;03 - 01;10;51;06
Speaker 2
Week before, we were like, oh man, why did it rain? Like, what are the odds that, like, someone was here a week ago and now it's all gone? So yeah, but I would just say it was like the pinnacle.

01;10;51;06 - 01;11;15;16
Speaker 1
Climbing experience because, you know, I had to, like, dig deep, like, physically because I was, like, pumped. I had to, like, climb technically. Well, because it's really beautiful climbing on small holes where you have to dance and you have to, like, execute the moves and come up with the sequence, like I said, with no chalk. And then mentally, just like I was so close to bailing at one point when I down climbed, like till I was just, I don't know, a few meters above the bolt.

01;11;15;19 - 01;11;15;29
Speaker 1
And that's all.

01;11;16;03 - 01;11;26;08
Speaker 2
I was like, I'm jumping. I was like, I'm like, no, I can fall safely here. I was like, dude, I don't know, like, fuck it. I was like, I'm so not into this anymore. Like we were like, thought we were like hardcore coming up here.

01;11;26;08 - 01;11;30;17
Speaker 1
And I was like, I just like having that whole doubt thing. And he was like, oh, dude, like.

01;11;30;19 - 01;11;33;15
Speaker 2
You got this. He was like, you know, you're solid.

01;11;33;17 - 01;11;45;28
Speaker 1
Just just do it. And I was like, God, I like that. And I was like, cause I know once I start questing up, I'm going to be back in that run out. Like have to deal with it. And, yeah, I just went up there and it was just like one of the best first dates I've ever had.

01;11;45;28 - 01;11;55;25
Speaker 1
Climbing, honestly, it's just beautiful climbing. And, you know, I feel like I was somewhere in between, like, having enough margin that I felt like. Not like I was.

01;11;55;25 - 01;12;12;10
Speaker 2
Gonna die imminently, but, like, not having too much margin where it was like, chill, you know, like, like I said, if. Yeah, yeah, I know it's not. Not like the 510 hand cracks on the top of the nest. Yeah, yeah.

01;12;12;13 - 01;12;25;11
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I think so. That was, that was really cool. Yeah.

01;12;25;13 - 01;12;27;12
Speaker 1
I'm sure a lot more people have done it than that.

01;12;27;12 - 01;12;28;20
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01;12;28;22 - 01;12;29;04
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;12;29;04 - 01;12;31;17
Speaker 2
But but I would say it's it's not one.

01;12;31;17 - 01;12;33;28
Speaker 1
That like, you'll probably have to wait in line for.

01;12;34;00 - 01;12;39;04
Speaker 2
You know. Yeah.

01;12;39;07 - 01;12;46;06
Speaker 2
Yeah. I.

01;12;46;09 - 01;12;48;12
Speaker 2
Yeah. Like likely likely because like I said.

01;12;48;13 - 01;12;48;27
Speaker 1
I think it's.

01;12;48;27 - 01;12;50;12
Speaker 2
Like legendary and it's definitely.

01;12;50;12 - 01;12;57;22
Speaker 1
Scary and committing. But.

01;12;57;24 - 01;13;10;02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Hopefully I'll keep climbing cool things and not have to, to live on that for the rest of my life. Yeah, but but yeah, actually, we ran into, Tommy Caldwell, like the week or a few days after.

01;13;10;02 - 01;13;11;15
Speaker 1
We did it, and it came up that.

01;13;11;15 - 01;13;15;25
Speaker 2
We had done it, and he was like, well, and I did it all sport climbing a bunch. And it wasn't really that exciting because.

01;13;15;27 - 01;13;18;08
Speaker 1
He was probably sport climbing like 515, you know.

01;13;18;10 - 01;13;45;00
Speaker 2
So like I said, if you have too much margin, it's probably not that much fun. So I'm kind of glad that we did it like, yeah, no, but it makes sense because if I climb A57 where the bolts are 50ft apart, I don't really think about it. You know? Yeah, I know, I know, but I can totally see that though, you know, if you have so much margin, like in the whole the whole legend of that route is that it's scary.

01;13;45;02 - 01;13;54;24
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, that's that's not that's not how it came off at all. Yeah. It was more just normal casual talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01;13;54;24 - 01;13;57;25
Speaker 2
do you know Brant Hazel? He climbs in the

01;13;58;05 - 01;14;12;04
Speaker 2
Yeah yeah yeah. Oh, yeah. Last year. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

01;14;12;05 - 01;14;13;03
Unknown
Maybe

01;14;20;17 - 01;14;35;20
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I saw the way Alex did it, and he, he didn't even give it, like, full effort. No, because. Yeah, but Alex, Alex could have gone way faster if he wanted to. So he was like, I'll just do like a and a normal day out and just, like, demolished your.

01;14;35;20 - 01;14;37;01
Speaker 1
Time and then like, not even care.

01;14;37;01 - 01;14;48;06
Speaker 2
Like, so. So I would say there's probably a lot of people who could beat Alex's record still. And then Alex would still come back. Maybe he didn't set it too low because he wants people to like, you know, he wants to be able to go back and forth because if he just did like.

01;14;48;13 - 01;14;50;02
Speaker 1
Max effort, like no one would ever.

01;14;50;02 - 01;14;58;00
Speaker 2
Beat it. So he wants us to try. Yeah. Yeah.

01;14;58;01 - 01;15;05;22
Speaker 2
In terms of, like, your personal objectives and your, like, inspiration now,

01;15;05;24 - 01;15;07;18
Speaker 2
Like what? What's got you psyched?

01;15;09;20 - 01;15;17;23
Speaker 1
If you've been enjoying the show, please like, subscribe and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the best ways to support the show.

01;15;19;01 - 01;15;35;12
Speaker 1
So I mean, right now, obviously dinner and I are in the middle of, like, building up to try to do this triple link up in the valley. So just running laps on these walls is, like, so much fun. And. Yeah, like yesterday. Was that our best time? Like, doing the nose in five hours.

01;15;35;12 - 01;16;06;05
Speaker 2
And we started really early because it's hot. But then, like, we topped out at 8:00 in the morning and like, that just feels like such, such like a ridiculous thing. And it's like, so much fun just to, like, be at the top of our cap. We were walking down and Tanner was like, what are you doing today? And I was like, well, my plan was to climb El Cap, but you're right, it's 9 a.m. and we're back at the van and I don't really know what I'm going to do today, I guess go, go swimming and send some emails, but yeah, like, it's like so much fun.

01;16;06;05 - 01;16;23;20
Speaker 2
But also I kind of like, really enjoy free climbing hard stuff. Like I was saying, like trying hard and I a little bit feel like speed climbing is kind of, how do I say it? It's it's like it's like it's not satisfying.

01;16;23;20 - 01;16;30;21
Speaker 1
In the same way. It's like trying too hard every pitch. It's kind of like eating potato chips. Like it's really.

01;16;30;21 - 01;16;54;06
Speaker 2
Tasty. But like, at the end of the day, you're still kind of hungry for some protein, you know? So like, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's like fun and it tastes good and it's like a great joy. But, yeah, I don't know, pulling on cans like. Yeah, sometimes it's nice to, like, fall on them instead. So, so I'm super psyched for, like.

01;16;54;09 - 01;17;11;05
Speaker 1
Try and hard on granite track is like, I love it so much. So I've got a few things in the valley. I've tried them. I'll probably try some more, you know, and just try. And like I said, from when I first started climbing, just like, honestly hard. And just go try it, why not, you know. So I don't know, maybe I'll go try some fruits then.

01;17;11;05 - 01;17;38;27
Speaker 1
Okay. Upper. Yeah. Kind of. So, so probably we'll do some more speed climbing. Like maybe the triple. Maybe do a few more stuff like that and then, but definitely hope to get some free climbing and especially when the temps come down a bit because October is good wall climbing weather usually, but like for free climbing it can be a bit hot, so it'll be nice if we finish like this chapter of the season up and then temps come down and we can like, yeah on some stuff with our fingers.

01;17;39;09 - 01;17;42;14
Speaker 2
Do you have a specific goal in mind? Like a specific route?

01;17;42;14 - 01;18;03;07
Speaker 2
I've got a few things, but I don't really like to pre spray, you know. Haha. Yeah yeah yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah definitely. Yeah. Single pitch stuff and I don't know you know I don't know. Yeah. Yeah I don't know maybe, maybe it'll change. It depends on the partners and the, the weather I guess. Yeah. So like yeah.

01;18;03;07 - 01;18;12;16
Speaker 1
Like hard cracks in the valley and maybe some walls though. Yeah. Definitely on El Cap. Like freak on a cap is really fun. Yeah.

01;18;23;21 - 01;18;25;11
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, it's kind of crazy.

01;18;25;11 - 01;18;28;07
Speaker 2
Because I keep going.

01;18;28;08 - 01;18;48;26
Speaker 1
To different places. Like climbing, like not. I've never been to Patagonia. And I definitely want to go someday. But I've been to, like, the bugaboo is in Canada, which is, like, a bit more alpine than California. Like, I've climbed the chimney. I was out there this summer a little bit.

01;18;48;28 - 01;19;00;21
Speaker 2
But every time I'm like, there for a little bit, I'm like, man, I can't wait to get back to the Valley. Like, this place is a vortex. And I just I'm just fully obsessed right now. And I have been since I first.

01;19;00;24 - 01;19;05;02
Speaker 1
Started climbing in. And I'm still. Yeah, I have been since before I started climbing, and.

01;19;05;08 - 01;19;08;01
Speaker 2
I'm still just completely obsessed.

01;19;08;03 - 01;19;13;17
Speaker 1
So.

01;19;13;19 - 01;19;14;27
Speaker 2
Where's the hype?

01;19;15;07 - 01;19;15;16
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;19;15;16 - 01;19;20;11
Speaker 2
Is it worth the hype? Everyone's like, everyone is like, Yosemite is like the dream for a climber to be there. It's like,

01;19;20;22 - 01;19;22;26
Speaker 2
I mean, for me.

01;19;22;29 - 01;19;25;28
Speaker 1
For me. But.

01;19;26;01 - 01;19;43;00
Speaker 2
Yeah, but the truth is, it sucks. Everyone stay here a little crag. I don't know. Yeah. Keep building your chest pile. Surely you can get some more glue and make another couple routes over there somewhere? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Loki. I'll cap stocks.

01;19;43;00 - 01;19;59;12
Speaker 2
Yeah. So.

01;19;59;15 - 01;20;14;17
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;20;14;19 - 01;20;39;02
Speaker 1
I think that's that's a good question, because I think that we learned so much about ourselves climbing. And one thing, it's actually. Yeah, something that I've talked with Tanner about is whenever you put yourself out there, like climbing, you put yourself in this situation where you have to solve the problem.

01;20;39;04 - 01;20;41;03
Speaker 2
You are like, faced with a.

01;20;41;03 - 01;20;59;29
Speaker 1
Situation where you actually have to do it. You know, like I was saying, you have this set of tools and over your experience of your climbing career, you you build like different tools to come up with, you know, beautiful solutions to difficult problems. But when you put yourself out there, climbing is like, if you screw up your rappelling, you're going to die.

01;21;00;03 - 01;21;00;16
Speaker 1
You know, if you.

01;21;00;16 - 01;21;12;12
Speaker 2
Build a bad anchor, you're going to die. If you, I don't know, mess up the belay system, you're going to you're going to die. And it's like so infrequently in our lives. Are we that aware of, like, the real.

01;21;12;14 - 01;21;22;01
Speaker 1
Consequences of our actions? It's, it puts you in touch with, I don't know, it's like.

01;21;22;03 - 01;21;31;05
Speaker 2
I guess it's extra motivation to actually solve the problem. But that's not a very good answer. But I guess what I'm getting.

01;21;31;05 - 01;22;12;15
Speaker 1
At is that, like, in our day to day life, it's easy to be comfortable and it's easy just to be in a pattern where, you know, you can, you know, find other people to solve your problems. And, you can kind of shirk the, the problem solving to other systems. But when you're on a wall and you know, you're, you're over here and your partner's over there and your whole bags are down there and everything's in a knot and you're tired and you're dehydrated and you're frustrated and you know, you've been in the sun all day.

01;22;12;17 - 01;22;43;27
Speaker 1
You have to deal with it. And it's like just being able to deal with it, to deal with being uncomfortable, to deal with being uncertain and to, to know that like, there's no other choice but for you and your partner and your own set of experiences and tools to find a solution is is really powerful. And and being that uncomfortable, like so frequently, I think, really puts into contrast like how nice the rest of our.

01;22;43;27 - 01;22;45;10
Speaker 2
Lives are in like a.

01;22;45;13 - 01;23;09;19
Speaker 1
A nice country, like, you know, United States or any, like, Western society. We have. Yeah. Just such a comfortable lifestyle that it's like, yeah, pretty, it just makes all of our luxuries a little more. It makes us more aware of our luxuries. Yeah. Like, I don't know. Yeah.

01;23;09;19 - 01;23;25;10
Speaker 2
Well said. Beautifully said. Yeah, I, I mean, I feel the same, you know, you come back from, you know, and it's different for each person, right? Like, you know, like, as long as you're out there, like, trying your hardest and, like, putting yourself in these uncomfortable situations, when you come back to reality,

01;23;29;06 - 01;23;36;01
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01;23;36;03 - 01;23;46;24
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

01;23;46;26 - 01;23;49;20
Speaker 1
Nice. Nice.

01;23;49;22 - 01;23;59;29
Speaker 2
Yeah. Epic day though. Yeah. Yeah.

01;24;00;04 - 01;24;04;26
Speaker 2
Oh, no. Yeah, yeah.

01;24;11;25 - 01;24;19;27
Speaker 2
That's the best microwave burrito known to man. Yeah. Yeah. Nice.

01;24;19;27 - 01;24;35;03
Speaker 2
yeah, from now on, we always bring what we call the treasure chest. Like, we always bring a cooler, throw some stuff in there and have it in the car, like even on like a they're going to easy multi pitch day. We always have that like fun thing to come back to. Nice dude.

01;24;35;06 - 01;24;38;15
Speaker 2
I think on the continuing this topic of reflections,

01;24;38;15 - 01;24;53;06
Speaker 2
you've kind of back, you're in, you've done, you know, you've you've handled the mental side of climbing like you just talked about being in uncomfortable situations. How do you cope with that mental side of climbing? Like when things get really hard and, like, dangerous or you're really uncomfortable because you're dehydrated.

01;24;53;06 - 01;24;58;24
Speaker 2
You've been in the sun all day. Like, how do you keep that psych high that you talk about? In terms of how that motivates

01;25;02;21 - 01;25;27;14
Speaker 1
Well, there's, I guess a couple parts of that. One part of it is, like, in the moment is like when you're there. And you run out or you're just hanging at the buffet for however many pitches after you ran out of water in the sun, or, you know, you're up there on this peak and the wind is coming and you're just so tired of being in the wind, and you're sunburned and you're just like, oh, why did we even decide to do this?

01;25;28;11 - 01;25;30;19
Speaker 2
And in the moment, lots of.

01;25;30;19 - 01;25;55;00
Speaker 1
Times, you know, the only thing you can really do is, just bring yourself back to that moment. And it's a bit of a meditative practice. And, I mean, this has actually been really used for me, useful for me on things like, like I, like you mentioned the back of your hand, being run out like that and it's like you start to think about, like the fall and you start to think about, you know, how, how run out you are and all of these things.

01;25;55;00 - 01;26;18;01
Speaker 1
But it's like, well, at the end of the day, it's you with these holds and your fingers and your shoes, and you have to figure out a sequence and, being able to, like, close out certain parts of your mind to, like, focus on one problem is kind of a beautiful state. And I think that was part of what made climbing that route really special, was that.

01;26;18;01 - 01;26;18;26
Speaker 2
Most of the.

01;26;18;26 - 01;26;21;25
Speaker 1
Time that I was leading, I was like in that.

01;26;21;25 - 01;26;23;20
Speaker 2
State of just like.

01;26;23;23 - 01;26;52;20
Speaker 1
Fully focused on that, like exact thing in that moment. And, you know, I do the same thing, even if it's a safe route or you're like, trying something hard and it's like you're fully focused on, you know, executing that move. I think that's common, you know, whether it's like bouldering or in the gym or climbing some huge peaks somewhere is like, you know, you're like that brings people into climbing, is being able to just, like, fully focus in that moment.

01;26;52;22 - 01;27;01;01
Speaker 1
And yeah, kind of take yourself away from all of the other, distractions in life,

01;27;01;04 - 01;27;18;10
Speaker 2
Yeah. I think that's an interesting point. Like, being present. Right? And, like, that's like you just said. It's like one of the special things about climbing is that it forces us to be present and in the moment. And I think that when we are in those risky situations or uncomfortable situations, like you said, it's easy to like get distracted by those things.

01;27;18;12 - 01;27;25;05
Speaker 2
But in the end, it's like, well, what we need to do is just like, stay focused and stay present. And that's going to be the safest way out and probably

01;27;25;05 - 01;27;34;00
Speaker 1
And that's kind of like in the immediate moment. But I mean, something else that, you know, just talking about, like, being psyched and having fun is like, I try even.

01;27;34;00 - 01;27;35;14
Speaker 2
When I'm uncomfortable.

01;27;35;16 - 01;27;42;10
Speaker 1
But to still be psyched and have fun, like, last month, Tanner and I were doing some routine to follow me, and it goes up the wall.

01;27;42;10 - 01;27;43;10
Speaker 2
And we were having fun.

01;27;43;10 - 01;28;00;04
Speaker 1
And we tried so hard on some pitch and Red pointed it, and we're just like, screwing around and doing the top out pitches. And like, I was leading the last or the last couple pitches and I pulled over this roof and it's like, as soon as I pulled over this roof, it was just like, saw it, I don't know, 40, 50 mile an hour winds.

01;28;00;07 - 01;28;07;06
Speaker 2
Just like we just seen the forecast this beautiful every day. I totally didn't look at the wind forecast for that day, and it was just.

01;28;07;06 - 01;28;08;24
Speaker 1
Smashing into the wall.

01;28;08;26 - 01;28;12;01
Speaker 2
And like I couldn't hear anything and like, it was the kind of wind where.

01;28;12;01 - 01;28;23;28
Speaker 1
It's like blowing your body or like almost keeping balance on the rock is difficult. And I was just like, oh man, I'm just going to get up this pitch. And we were hauling a bag and the pollen is blowing sideways. And I was like, okay. And I didn't see where the.

01;28;23;28 - 01;28;24;26
Speaker 2
Anchor was supposed to be.

01;28;24;26 - 01;28;28;17
Speaker 1
And I was so confused and I was climbing this crack. And then I realized I was off side.

01;28;28;17 - 01;28;30;02
Speaker 2
Down climb till I could get some, like, big.

01;28;30;02 - 01;28;39;16
Speaker 1
Enough gear that I was comfortable making an anchor. And I brought him up there and it was just like, like relentless. It wasn't gusts. It was just like steady wind. And it's like.

01;28;39;18 - 01;28;54;25
Speaker 2
I was like, this is crazy. This is absurd. Like 30 minutes ago, we were like, taking red point burns on, like, the cracks pitch. And like, now all of a sudden we're up here just like wearing our big puffy is like in the sun, like 60 degree day. Because it's so, you know, windy. And we're like, oh man.

01;28;54;25 - 01;29;04;11
Speaker 2
Like, this is not really fun anymore. You know, all of a sudden, like, we're just pulling over the roof on to the side and all of a sudden it was just epic. And and we were both like, okay, this.

01;29;04;11 - 01;29;08;06
Speaker 1
Is, like I said, all serious, you know, kind of like people on their first tried climb.

01;29;08;09 - 01;29;26;00
Speaker 2
And then I just started laughing. I'm like, yeah, if I do that, like, this is pretty damn funny because, like, because we're up here and everything is epic. And like 30 minutes ago we were so like chill and I was like and in like an hour we're going to be like hiking down the backside. I'm like, so enjoy.

01;29;26;00 - 01;29;45;22
Speaker 2
Like the tension right now. You know, it's like you're watching a scary movie. It's like you hate being scared, but also it's kind of the reason you watch the scary movie. And I'm like, this is it. Like, this is kind of the reason we're out here because it's like kind of intense. I was like, enjoy it. And I just remember, like doing like we were we were way off route and like, I like, traversed on some knobs and no gear.

01;29;45;22 - 01;30;07;05
Speaker 2
And I was like kind of laughing. I'm like, oh, this is really funny. And I got like nestled some, like, micrograms and wraps and I'm just like giggling like, I don't know, you know, and then and then. Yeah, sure enough, got back on route, popped out some whatever, 5 or 6 hand crack. And then we're hiking through the forest like 30 minutes later in the sun with our shirts off, like, oh, dude, that was really funny.

01;30;07;05 - 01;30;25;10
Speaker 2
I'm like, that is hilarious. Like, we like epic. The like for like an hour. I don't know, like to me, that's part of the experience is like. But being able to like realize that in the moment is not so easy. But I really try to like that's one example that I just recently where I remember, like I was up there just like, oh, this is really funny.

01;30;25;10 - 01;30;40;18
Speaker 2
Like, I don't know, like I'm psyched. Like I'm super psyched. Like we're off route. It's like gnarly when, like, we don't even know, like if there's a crack somewhere or nowhere, but, here we are. Yeah. I don't know.

01;30;40;21 - 01;30;50;24
Speaker 2
Exactly. That's what it is. It's like, what else are you going to do? You're going to be happy or unhappy. Yeah. You you chose to go climbing. You're climbing. You're not climbing the route you wanted to climb.

01;30;50;24 - 01;30;52;21
Speaker 1
I don't even know if we were climbing any route, but.

01;30;52;24 - 01;31;11;01
Speaker 2
We were climbing, and, I don't know if maybe if I'm probably some other suckers gone over that way, but. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. It's like it's just always a joy. Like. Yeah, kind of epic and can be like kind of kind of fun, you know, like if you're like, psyched about.

01;31;11;01 - 01;31;12;14
Speaker 1
It and you know, you're not. And the other.

01;31;12;14 - 01;31;12;25
Speaker 2
Thing is like.

01;31;12;25 - 01;31;15;02
Speaker 1
Knowing you're not actually in danger.

01;31;15;05 - 01;31;17;20
Speaker 2
Is like, there's a difference between, like, if we were.

01;31;17;20 - 01;31;20;24
Speaker 1
There and there was like a gnarly storm coming in that was going to kill us.

01;31;20;26 - 01;31;37;11
Speaker 2
And being there and being like, it's a sunny September afternoon. Like, if we get back to our van in 1 hour or 3 hours or five, it's like, it doesn't really matter. You know? But, yeah, it's like, what are the real consequences? You know? No, no, no.

01;31;37;25 - 01;31;53;19
Speaker 2
Do you, like, have a vision for how you want to be remembered as a climber? Like, are you trying to leave any sort of a legacy at all, or is this purely just, like a passion like journey of self-discovery?

01;31;55;09 - 01;31;55;15
Speaker 2
I'm.

01;31;55;15 - 01;32;06;27
Speaker 1
Not trying to leave a legacy. I mean, but I guess, you know, I said, I. I think that I'm really psyched, and I think if I can, like, I think I have been able to share that.

01;32;06;27 - 01;32;08;18
Speaker 2
With a few people.

01;32;08;20 - 01;32;16;13
Speaker 1
And if I share that with more people between now and when I pick up birdwatching, then that would be rad.

01;32;16;15 - 01;32;19;02
Speaker 2
And if those people, like, live their lives with a little bit.

01;32;19;02 - 01;32;33;18
Speaker 1
More, you know, finding joy and being able to laugh when they're epic, seeing, like, light, like Light Corps speaking or, you know, or just like, find that climbing is a little more fun and a little less serious then. Yeah, that'd be cool.

01;32;33;21 - 01;32;34;11
Speaker 2
But that's not.

01;32;34;11 - 01;32;50;29
Speaker 1
Really because I care about how I'm remembered. That's more just because I think that would be cool if I could, like, make other people's lives better by, like, being out here. Just sharing. Yeah. Sharing the stoke. So.

01;32;51;01 - 01;32;51;29
Speaker 2
I think there's.

01;32;51;29 - 01;32;59;28
Speaker 1
Yeah. Potentially going to be some of that. But at the moment I'm just having fun. Yeah. Running laps on the, the.

01;32;59;28 - 01;33;03;17
Speaker 2
Of Scorpions in the Valley. Yeah.

01;33;03;19 - 01;33;32;07
Speaker 1
But there's just so much rock out. There's so many mountains. Yeah. Exactly.

01;33;32;10 - 01;33;36;05
Speaker 1
The message is, Yeah. Yeah. So same thing I've been saying the whole time.

01;33;36;05 - 01;33;37;23
Speaker 2
Just, like, be psyched.

01;33;37;26 - 01;33;55;05
Speaker 1
Just like, go for it. And like, that's it. Just like, go for it. Like, if you see something and you want to do it and you haven't done it, the only reason you haven't done it is probably because you haven't tried or, you know, or if there's something you haven't tried, then the reason you haven't done is because you haven't tried.

01;33;55;07 - 01;34;04;26
Speaker 2
It's a circular argument, but like it's like it's like when you're on a route and you're just like losing the stone. Can you bail bails? Like the reason you bailed is because you chose to bail. If you just do one more pitch you want to build.

01;34;04;28 - 01;34;07;18
Speaker 1
So stay psyched and go for it.

01;34;09;10 - 01;34;30;25
Speaker 1
That concludes today's episode. Everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you like today's episode, please be sure to rate and review the show. This simple gesture significantly helps the algorithm share this podcast with new listeners. Also, please share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is the best way to support the show. Don't forget you can watch our full episodes on YouTube.

01;34;30;28 - 01;34;46;03
Speaker 1
Stay tuned for our next episode where I complete the TCM Triple Crown with my final conversation with both Michael and Tanner regarding their recent groundbreaking achievement, The Yosemite Quad. Until then, keep exploring. Stay safe. And as always,

01;34;46;05 - 01;34;48;15
Speaker 1
thanks for being a part of the climbing majority.

01;34;48;29 - 01;34;52;02
Speaker 1
I will see you all tomorrow.