60 | Beyond Climbing Hard w/ Jonathan Siegrist

Have you ever imagined what kinda person you have to be mentally and physically to climb some of the hardest routes in the world? Maybe how that person views themselves and their own accomplishment? Or even how they might view the everyday climber? 

In this conversation we wanted to move beyond what it's like to climb hard. What are the lessons of a 5.15 climber and how can we apply Jonathan's viewpoint and experiences to improve our own lives?

Jonathan helps us remember life is about private little victories. He suggests that it's important    be gentle on ourselves and to remember why we started climbing in the first place, the love of life and the outdoors.

In our chat, we talk about how Jonathan supports the community and what recreational climbers look like through pros’ eyes. We discuss how top climbers use their influence, what key traits make them successful, and finally how Jonathan plans to use his talents once he outlives his physical peak.

Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.

Contact us:
IG: @the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:37 Giving Back to the Majority
• 7:43 How Pros View Recreational Climbers
• 17:13 How Climbing 5.15 Benefits Everyone
• 29:02 A Pros Social Responsibilities
• 33:11 How Jonathan Views His Own Accomplishments
• 39:59 Nature vs Nurture. What Builds A Pro?
• 47:16 How To Manage Failure
• 1:00:25 Jonathan's Future

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:05
Unknown
Hey, everyone. Kyle here. Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast, where Max and I sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides and recreational climbers alike to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber. If you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:25:23 - 00:00:47:01
Unknown
Have you guys ever imagined what kind of person you'd have to be mentally and physically to climb some of the hardest routes in the world? Maybe you've thought about how that person views themselves and their own accomplishments, or even how they might view the everyday climber. Today we get to sit down with Jonathan Siegrist, but in this conversation we wanted to move beyond what it's like to climb hard.

00:00:47:03 - 00:01:12:19
Unknown
What are the lessons of a 515 climber and how can we apply Jonathan's viewpoints and experiences to improve our own lives? In our chat, Jonathan helps us remember that life is about private little victories. He suggests that it's important to be gentle on ourselves and to remember why we started climbing in the first place. We talk about how Jonathan supports the community and what recreational climbers look like through professionals eyes.

00:01:12:21 - 00:01:23:12
Unknown
We discuss how top climbers use their influence. What key traits make them successful, and finally, how Jonathan plans to use his talents once he's outlived his physical peak.

00:01:37:02 - 00:01:56:07
Unknown
All right. we get. We're good, man. We're hot air live. Wicked man. I'm going to take my shoes off because I think I might. Yeah, I might go, yeah. I can not be comfortable for my life in that position. My hips are like. I'm like the world's worst yogi, I think. really, Dude, It's all carrying heavy packs and.

00:01:56:09 - 00:02:13:16
Unknown
man, I'm walking up the mountain. Carrying heavy packs is not. Make your hips more flexible. It makes them less flexible. No, that's what I meant about you. yeah? Yeah. I was like, what are you. What are you talking about? no. Yeah, that's my body's designed for that. I'm like an ox. I can carry weight, but then I try and climb hard and it just doesn't work.

00:02:13:16 - 00:02:50:23
Unknown
So you do embrace the supple leopard, you know? Yeah. I'll try my spirit animal, apparently. Yeah. So I kind of rewrote a question that we'd like to open up with your, which is essentially how do you feel your contributions to climbing benefits recreational climbers such as ourselves. Ooh, how do I feel that my contributions benefit. Well so I think in a really direct way, I've been able to establish a lot of routes that I would consider like moderates.

00:02:51:01 - 00:03:21:11
Unknown
And that term gets thrown around a lot. But I'd love to see your definition of modern. No, no, I know I've actually bolted routes all the way down to five nine. So when I think of moderates, I think of like five, nine, five, 11. Amazing. Okay. That's that's are some people actually feel that moderate is like 57259 plus thing I could understand that argument yeah yeah I guess I guess there has to be something there has to be something quantifiable below moderate.

00:03:21:11 - 00:03:51:09
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I can't say that I've done a lot of development in the 56258 range, but so, so that's one like really concrete way that I feel like I've added. I don't know the number of routes offhand, but it's at least dozens like five, 11 and under because when I'm going to bolt a new crag or if there's something like a project I'm really interested in, I mean, if I see something that looks beautiful, I'm psyched about it or psyched to develop that route no matter what the grade is, you know?

00:03:51:13 - 00:04:28:01
Unknown
And I think that Crags are just better if they have great routes for warming up. And I more than often, you know, it's not like every person I climb with is like a professional or like climbing. 515 So a lot of times I want to make especially a new area really inviting to the masses. So it makes it much easier for me to find partners like something I found with areas is like if all I have is like a, you know, 12 D warm up and then like a handful of, like mega-projects, then like the, the number of people that I'm able to solicit into bringing with me to the crag goes down significantly, you

00:04:28:01 - 00:04:46:07
Unknown
know, so when I see easier things that look cool, I'm always like this is not even altruist. It's just like, like pure self beneficial. Part of it is definitely that I ball like this range of five six. I get Vince all my friends to come. Me Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Part of it is definitely that. Yeah. So I would say that's a really concrete way.

00:04:46:07 - 00:05:14:08
Unknown
I would say I've done a lot of like time volunteering over the years. I was on the board of directors of the Southern Nevada Climbers Coalition for six or seven years. So, you know, we would do a lot of stuff in regards to stewardship in the area. So, you know, trail projects like community events, raising money for the the Elko, but also just like, you know, bringing people together and and stuff like that.

00:05:14:08 - 00:05:43:12
Unknown
So that would probably be another way that I would say would benefit the overall community. and then, you know, through the years I've taught like a dizzying number of clinics and done slideshows and stuff like that that are engaging the community beyond just professional climbers. And, and more often than not, especially with the clinics, those are targeted at people who are climbing under 512.

00:05:43:14 - 00:06:10:02
Unknown
And so I actually interact with the kind of recreational climbing community probably more than people would think that I do. And I always find it grounding. And I know that might sound weird because I don't want it to sound like there's like, you know, there's like a, a moderate level climber and then everybody else or something like that, you know?

00:06:10:02 - 00:06:38:17
Unknown
But, but it's always grounding for me because I think you can get a bit lost being a professional and only being around other professionals, only being around people who climb at a certain level and who have a certain experience of climbing in the climbing community and stuff like that. So every time like, you know, a great example is like when I go out with a clinic and maybe we go into Red Rocks, let's say, and, you know, we kind of wander up some crag that we've been assigned by the event.

00:06:38:19 - 00:06:58:20
Unknown
And, you know, sometimes I'll arrive there and I'll be like, We're in the sun. It's like blowing wind. This is like the worst crag I've ever been to, You know, like there's 20 of us and there's only three routes and we're only going to top rope. And still at the end of the day, I'll have people say that it's like one of the best days that they've ever had, you know?

00:06:59:02 - 00:07:19:17
Unknown
And for me, I'm just like, okay, damn, I need to like re remember why I originally fell in love with climbing and just why it's so awesome. Just be outside and you know, you can get quite salty and quite like lost when you're only going to the absolute best crag and you're only picking the best days. And you know what I mean?

00:07:19:18 - 00:07:41:09
Unknown
And sometimes it's nice to remember that like there's a lot of joy to be had in just learning no matter where you are and, and so yeah, like, well, basically just coming around to what I said about sometimes those days are really grounding and it gives me a new perspective and able to like go back and maybe enjoy some of the days, some of the crag, some of the like friends and stuff that I wasn't able to eat before.

00:07:41:09 - 00:08:09:15
Unknown
So it's cool. Do you have like a particular view towards recreational climbers? Like there's definitely a separation there between the social group that you find yourself in versus, you know, people like Max Night, the Crag, who are like Crux in that like 510, like where, you know, we're we're, we're on our own speed like maybe talk about the difference and how you and people in your circle maybe have a view towards people in our shoes and climbers like us.

00:08:09:17 - 00:08:33:22
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, well, first of all, I think what's really important to understand is like, it's not like there's a blanket derogatory view towards people that are, you know, have one or two days per week to climb and, you know, do their best and go out and, you know, maybe their goal is to perform their best, but they're just earlier on in their journey than I am.

00:08:33:22 - 00:08:55:12
Unknown
Or maybe their goal isn't to perform. It's just to like recreate, you know, just fully to be outside. And I would say, yeah, I mean, my view and I think other people's views is definitely not derogatory. I think it's just like I think that there's a like a baseline mutual respect that we all have for one another that's quite unique to climbing.

00:08:55:14 - 00:09:19:14
Unknown
I never saw and I mean, I'm sure there's examples where like I had a bad day or for some other reason it came up, but I never intrinsically believe that I have any more importance or any more like right to be at a crack or to try something than someone else. You know, I always try my best to be respectful, even if it does happen, that I'm warming up on something that someone's projecting or whatever it is.

00:09:19:16 - 00:09:38:15
Unknown
But no, generally speaking, I mean, 99% of all the climbers I meet, no matter what their level is, it's like awesome to share the crag with them. And and I totally enjoy it. And in fact, actually my roommate, who I've lived now with now for like three or four years, a lot of times I tell people that my wife and I have a roommate now.

00:09:38:15 - 00:10:02:13
Unknown
I always be a climber, and I think people kind of somewhat assume that we would live with someone who's like, you know, some kind of total bone crusher. But but he's a guy that my wife actually met on Facebook on like the climbers like Facebook page. And he's a great climber. He's really experienced. I mean, that's the thing, too, is like his name is Brian.

00:10:02:13 - 00:10:30:20
Unknown
He might not climb 512, but to be honest, like, I'd feel way more comfortable climbing in a pair with him than I would with like plenty of 512 climbers in anywhere in Red Rock because he knows the canyon so well and he's really proficient to try and climbing. But I mean, that's his thing is like going to the gym a couple of times a week and then like going out and climbing five, nine stands and 11 and and like, you know, again, I think, you know, I see people like him and I don't necessarily think of him as being any less than me.

00:10:30:20 - 00:10:57:16
Unknown
It's just he's earlier on in his his journey towards like whatever his performance goals are. Then I might be and like, I was you know, I was a beginner and I was a moderate climber and I was a five, 11, five, 12. You know, we all went through that. So I think like if you ever lose, if any professional ever lose touch with the fact that like they were once X, Y and Z, then I don't know that that's probably gone too far.

00:10:57:16 - 00:11:22:19
Unknown
Right. We we recently interviewed somebody and he mentioned the phrase there are he had the mentality. We, you know, the title of the episode was Reformed Elitism. And so he had this mentality of there are people who climb and then there are climbers, you know, and I like that, you know, you and the people you surround yourself don't have that elitist mentality, which is awesome, but it does exist.

00:11:22:21 - 00:11:43:19
Unknown
Yeah. You know, my question here is kind of like, have you run into it before? Is it something that, you know, professionals are that have to deal with or is it, you know, something that like people trying to be a professional and trying to prove themselves and have this ego attached to climbing and it's everything for them. That's where that kind of darkness creeps in.

00:11:43:19 - 00:12:16:08
Unknown
Like, do you have a relationship with, you know, meeting people that have that kind of elitist mentality and look down on other climbers for underperforming or not meeting certain expectations? I think for the most part, the type of people that I surround myself with don't have that attitude. But I mean, you know, there are always moments, I think, that like where I see myself in my closer friend community and to be honest, like, I don't it's not like everyone I hang out with in climate is a professional.

00:12:16:08 - 00:12:50:02
Unknown
Actually, the majority of them or not, they're all very passionate climbers and they're all generally quite good at climbing, especially like in a in global terms. But that being said, like, you know, probably only a couple like a handful of people that are my best friends and that I climb with frequently are actually like pro climbers. But yeah, I think that I think that the ways that I see it, myself included, if I'm honest, the ways that I see me and my friends judge people or maybe look down on people has nothing to do with their climbing level.

00:12:50:08 - 00:13:29:07
Unknown
I think it has more to do with their experience level. And what I mean by that is like, I think that there is a certain way to behave in the outdoors and a certain like again, mutual respect to have for one another. And so if I'm honest, where I see myself maybe looking down on others, I'm far more likely to throw shade at a couple of teenagers that might climb 513 but have never been to a crag and have got the music and they've got the whole like seen and they've like, you know, they've like got Red Bulls that are getting tipped over.

00:13:29:07 - 00:13:51:12
Unknown
Oops, sorry, got Red Bull's getting tipped over. And this whole deal like to me they have very little experience even though on paper they might be a good climber. That type of person is the type of person where I might even say something to them or throw them shade or kind of like try and, you know, help them correct some of their behaviors in a loving way or in like a tough love way.

00:13:51:14 - 00:14:13:10
Unknown
But like the the, you know, middle age couple that's out there to climb 510 and is clearly clearly knows their way around the crag and has like been this is in their first rodeo. You know I would never have I personally I feel like I would never it wouldn't even cross my mind have a thought of like you guys are intense.

00:14:13:14 - 00:14:40:01
Unknown
You guys suck. You know, I'm more like, respect. You know, like, we get it. It's I'm really it's I'm grateful to be here with you guys and to share the crag and like, you know, if you need anything, let me know or whatever. Vice versa. So yeah, I think it's, it, it's more about like understanding how to behave in the outdoors, mutual respect for these public places that we share a mutual respect for, like climbing in the climbing community in general.

00:14:40:04 - 00:15:00:12
Unknown
Those are the things that I might end up intentionally or unintentionally judging someone on. Not at all like their climbing level. Comment Yeah, I think it's just important to, you know, pro climbers can be these mythical things sometimes and it's hard. You know, you don't get a chance to really be in their shoes and think about like what do they think me or yeah, yeah.

00:15:00:14 - 00:15:17:09
Unknown
So it's an interesting perspective. So I appreciate you sharing. Of course. Yeah. And I and I can't say that I've ever really thought about answering questions like that. So it's interesting to me too. Yeah, absolutely. I, I personally really liked your comment about the backpacks. It's like a personal vendetta I have of people with music in the outdoors.

00:15:17:09 - 00:15:38:10
Unknown
Like my my girlfriend and I just like every time we're unlike some or buy and scramble or hike like you're in the middle of nowhere so far away and there's just somehow always one person with a backpack speakers and just like blaring music. And I hate like sometimes I try and from their perspective go into like, okay, like they're like, that's their thing.

00:15:38:10 - 00:15:56:09
Unknown
They're doing that. But then like, just my belief system is just objectively like, we're in nature, like trying to enjoy like the silence in the experience, like that should be the default if somebody wants to experience that, you know, So I personal a little vendetta with that so that brought some, some happiness to me. So yeah, I totally understand.

00:15:56:09 - 00:16:23:04
Unknown
I mean there aren't there aren't a lot of things you can do that really like directly affect the other people in having their experience. But that's definitely one of them 100%. And I mean, you know, there can be times when it's just you and a couple of people and you're sure that no one else is around and there's no potential land managers or homeowners that you could bother or whatever, and you decide to play some music.

00:16:23:04 - 00:16:50:05
Unknown
Like for me, that's something that I'm like, basically never happens. But I'm not saying it's impossible to enjoy music outside. But yeah, I fully agree with you in that like, you know, the reason that we go, we're not at the gym or at least one of them is because we want to have a wilderness experience. We're not necessarily like looking to like, get hyped up and then who gets to choose the music and then what is the music, you know, and all that.

00:16:50:10 - 00:17:10:17
Unknown
Our taste is very different. Yeah, yeah. Or at least if you just offer like a, like a gesture of, Hey, can I play this? yeah. Then, then I'm like, totally cool. But if you don't even acknowledge, then I'm like, Okay, that's super inconsiderate. I totally agree. The vibe too, is like, your climbers don't play. I don't know, like AC Slater or Rap or classic piano Hard rock.

00:17:10:17 - 00:17:31:15
Unknown
I don't know. Laura in relation to the original question. So you brought up some some interesting and good points of kind of your way of giving back to the community. And something I'm curious about is how do you view your exceptional performance as an athlete in the community and how do you view that giving back to the community?

00:17:31:15 - 00:18:01:18
Unknown
Because that was something we didn't touch on and bears like. It was like more like tangible things that you had done for the community. But I'm interested in the aspect of your literal performance and how do you think that influences, you know, the climbing community as a whole, broadly man if I'm honest, I don't. It's really hard for me to see beyond the utterly selfish nature of like performance climbing.

00:18:01:20 - 00:18:41:19
Unknown
Like, I just don't like, it's hard for me to really, like when I climb a new nine. B Is that making climbing or the general climbing community better somehow? And it's really hard for me to say yes to that. But I think that I think that what I try to do is share. I mean, it's part of my job, but I also try to share my experience in a way that's relatable to people.

00:18:41:21 - 00:19:11:08
Unknown
And there have been a lot of times when climbers like of all levels of experience and performance have responded to me. Sharing about that experience with like this helped motivate me or this helped inspire me or like I could see like this echoed something that happened to me or a way that I felt about something and it somehow helped me.

00:19:11:08 - 00:19:44:16
Unknown
So I think that like when I think about my impact, I also I'm just thinking about like, what is the purpose of having professional climbers and I think that so much of it, like the performance is like a foundation that I think is actually really important because generally speaking, performance indicates a certain level of time spent and obsession.

00:19:44:18 - 00:20:16:01
Unknown
And it's likely that if you perform at a really high level that you understand the pursuit in a way that maybe someone who's only done it 100 times versus, you know, 10,000 times might not understand as well. So I think that performance in a lot of ways gives pro climbers in authority. And then what they choose to do with that authority is kind of, in my opinion, in a lot of ways, like where you can go right, or where you can go wrong as a as a pro climber.

00:20:16:01 - 00:20:43:02
Unknown
So I think it's like, yeah, maybe the first half, which is kind of would seem like a lot, but I think like it has to be predicated because, because essentially like you're, you're commanding a certain audience of people and you're, you're at the helm of a certain like people are going to listen to what you have to say because of the performance thing and they're going to follow you because of the performance thing.

00:20:43:02 - 00:21:02:00
Unknown
And I'm not even totally sure why. I mean, why why do you guys think I got a great answer for that? Yeah, Yeah. Like, like an example I could give is I have zero proclivity to basketball. I do? Yeah. I play basketball. Perfect. I do not even watch basketball, but I idolize Michael Jordan as a totally. Yeah, yeah.

00:21:02:03 - 00:21:30:18
Unknown
it's. I like the last dance that documented series. Just his. His work ethic and his drive and his motivation. And even some of them can be very negative in a lot of aspects, like when applied to the general population. Like, it's insane. You should never do what that person is doing. Yeah, but you can. You can watch that person have all these traits in overdrive that is just like this kind of culmination of performance and excellence.

00:21:30:21 - 00:22:05:10
Unknown
Yeah. And you can kind of see that and aspire to not be exactly that. Yeah, but to be the best version of yourself in life, if that makes sense. It's like, I'll watch someone like you climb and I'll have a couple laughs and go like, This is just fucking absurd and ridiculous, you know? But I'll go like, you know, the more you look into it and try and optimize it, I haven't achieved the best of my ability in climbing and I don't have to if I don't want to, but if I want to, there is more that I can eke out and that I can do and optimize in my life to just in the

00:22:05:10 - 00:22:29:23
Unknown
pursuit of excellence for myself. Yeah. And seeing individuals such as yourself weird, you know, you know, saying it's like analogous to Michael Jordan, I don't know how you feel about that, but you know, not quite. Yeah. Yeah, I guess you're right. If we're going to be saying the same thing here, but you get the broader point. Yeah, I guess, you know, it's motivational and I think in society we really do need individuals in all domains.

00:22:30:03 - 00:22:49:13
Unknown
As you know, women's climbing, men's climbing, female sports, males, whatever, you know, go, go all over the spectrum there. We need these individuals that we can kind of look up to and aspire to be or who will motivate us to be the best version of ourselves. Yeah, I think it's a really important thing. But but it's hard to just continue with my rant here.

00:22:49:13 - 00:23:09:20
Unknown
But I did really like the point you made there where as one of those athletes, that's just the first step or the half mark, right? It's like, you know, like Kyle's like, you know, talked about this before where, you know, if you're if you're, like, amazing, but then you're like a total dick, you know, and nobody wants to work with you.

00:23:09:20 - 00:23:38:16
Unknown
You're not a good role model. You don't sell products. Well, you know, it's like it's like, well, and like, what's the like how do you how do you bridge those two? You can't they're kind of insoluble. Yeah. Yeah. And there and there's plenty of people that are incredible athletes, both in climbing and in all kinds of other sports and pursuits who might nail the performance aspect, but there might be too much ego involved.

00:23:38:16 - 00:24:03:11
Unknown
It might feel like their motives are misplaced. Like there's other things that can really, at least for me, make it very difficult to actually feel influenced by that person because, like, it's it's fine to be really, really good at something. And I think to some degree it's always admirable, no matter no matter what kind of character you are.

00:24:03:13 - 00:24:32:17
Unknown
But like, yeah, I mean, you're you're, you're importance in relevancy and like influence can just go so dramatically downhill based on character traits, you know, and what you decide to do with with whatever voice you've been given because of your talent or, you know, whatever it is. So on that note, you had mentioned that it could either go south or positive, right?

00:24:32:19 - 00:25:07:05
Unknown
What are some examples of each? So you're given this this voice, you're given this platform through your performance, through a brand, through attention, through an audience? How can it go south? How can you abuse that power? Like, where does that go wrong? Yeah, I think something that I see most often is there is like a like underneath this veil of strength and superiority.

00:25:07:07 - 00:25:30:16
Unknown
Everyone's vulnerable. Right? And, and, and this is kind of what I was trying to say before as I try and share things that are relatable, no matter what type of climber you are or what level of climber you are like, what I see that really bums me out is and this happens most mostly with younger climbers, but it it can happen with everybody.

00:25:30:16 - 00:25:59:02
Unknown
But a you can completely you can be inauthentic to the point where your online persona is entirely different from your in-person persona. And that, to me, is incredibly empty and vapid because then you're essentially an actor. You're like putting on a show that's not real. And I know people that have done that for years and decades even, you know.

00:25:59:08 - 00:26:47:03
Unknown
But then again, I know people that maybe did that at one point and then came around to be inauthentic version of themselves online. I think there's so much of what we do and what we say is communicated online that the type of like integrity that you have online is like critically important nowadays. And then as a piece of that, what I think is really important and one of the main ways I think that you can go like these things can go well are things can go, in my opinion, poorly is like if you're like and it's not relatable to anyone, if you never show your weakness and you never admit to your vulnerability because like

00:26:47:05 - 00:27:18:07
Unknown
no one, our nurse is completely without, you know, no one doesn't have like we all have a dark side or a side of us that no matter how hard we try, is is unproductive or negative or, you know, painful to live through or whatever it is. And I think that and I'm not saying that every post should be about this, but it's because that can be maybe another way of things going wrong.

00:27:18:09 - 00:27:46:01
Unknown
Yeah, Yeah. But, but I do feel like like, like you made you made the point about like, watching Michael Jordan. And I agree. I think that series is amazing and Michael Jordan has his whole story is awesome. And I guess that the athlete is like in in sports outside of climbing and in sports and in climbing that I feel the most drawn to are the ones who it's clearly hard.

00:27:46:01 - 00:28:13:06
Unknown
It's clearly fucking hard for them to do what they're doing. And I can see the moments when even they have doubt and then they persevere through that doubt. Like to me I'm like, That's how it feels for me. So like now I'm seeing someone who like overcame X, Y and Z and and was willing to share the moments that didn't go well or the vulnerabilities throughout it.

00:28:13:09 - 00:28:32:11
Unknown
To me, that's like that gets that's what gets me psyched, much more so than just, you know, seeing a climber who every time they post, it's about how easy something was or how strong they're feeling or how quick it was or what it's just like, All right, like there's a part of you that you don't that you're not strong enough to share yet.

00:28:32:11 - 00:29:06:15
Unknown
And I completely understand. But I also think that, like for me personally, I'm not going to get it. There's nothing I can get from that, you know? Yeah. On the bright side, so I find this interesting. You, you dedicate yourself to performance. You are this machine, you're dedicated and you're all about climbing. And then, you know, you become a professional and you have this audience and now you have a platform to speak and have an opinion when it comes to like, political opinions or taking a stance or taking sides on certain agendas.

00:29:06:17 - 00:29:41:07
Unknown
Do you feel that maybe you you can answer this personally, or do you feel like athletes have earned that right? Do you feel like there's a connection there, or do you feel like it's just like this duty that's been put upon you that you have to act on because that's the way it is? Well, I mean, I think that there is in the last four years or so, there's been a there's definitely been a sense that suddenly everyone should comment on every event in the world at all times, no matter how much of a non-expert you are in that realm.

00:29:41:09 - 00:30:13:14
Unknown
I generally disagree with that. I mean, I think that like, why do people value my opinion about climbing? Because I'm an expert and so I am more than happy to speak to things that I feel I'm an expert in that field the same way that, like my wife's a nutritionist. If someone came out of nowhere and asked her like a question about, like, you know, foot health, she'd be like, I can't help you there.

00:30:13:18 - 00:31:07:05
Unknown
Right? But it's like not it's because she understands one aspect of the human body. It doesn't mean that she understands them all. So I do think it's totally like that sentiment generally is pretty lame. That being said, I also think that athletes shouldn't be just reduced to just their athletic performance. And what I like is athletes or actors or, you know, whoever it is that has one or two like missions outside of their professional career that they're actually quite passionate about and maybe they even know something about and they spend some of their energy on their platform or with their voice to like, you know, forward that take action thing.

00:31:07:05 - 00:31:30:13
Unknown
Yeah, like for me personally, that one thing would be in regards to the environment, like I'm, I'm with power now, I'm a member of Protect our Winters and so I've done a bunch of work with them in the past. I've I my degree is actually in environmental science, so I'm not an expert, but I do know more about the topic than I do a lot of other things.

00:31:30:15 - 00:32:10:20
Unknown
And it is it is something that I'm passionate about personally. Like I dork out on electric cars. We have solar in our house. I just installed a heat pump water heater like those type of things, energy consumption grid like doesn't really interest me and I do like to share things in regard to that. But, you know, am I going to pretend to know anything about like some civil war and X, Y, Z country or like pretend to know what it feels like to be this type of identity of a person growing up in this community or that community.

00:32:10:20 - 00:32:17:10
Unknown
Like, you know, there are things that I feel qualified to speak about and other things that I feel. It's my role actually to just listen.

00:32:18:07 - 00:32:25:23
Unknown
Hey everyone, please like subscribe and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is the best way to support the show.

00:32:26:15 - 00:32:28:02
Unknown
Yeah, I think that's

00:32:28:02 - 00:32:47:01
Unknown
a really great point. And I think like the underlying thing of what you talked about there is just you can have opinions of you're not an expert, but just have a degree of humility total, you know, and like and you know, maybe don't do things that are incendiary just to attack other people because those are the people you're trying to you need them to adopt your idea.

00:32:47:01 - 00:33:04:06
Unknown
You know, So if you're incendiary to them, I mean, yeah, it's it's a lot that makes me think like we have a note at the top of our, like, show notes here. And it says silence is a sign of wisdom that that was actually in relation to just like it's okay to have like pauses in silence, you know, because you always want to fill that gap with something.

00:33:04:06 - 00:33:32:02
Unknown
But yeah, also strangely, strangely applied to do this. Yeah, totally. You know, a little bit earlier before we started talking about that, we kind of were talking about our character traits and this authenticity, you know, like that our avatars online, like, are you authentically portraying yourself and your vulnerabilities? And I'm wondering for you, you know, what are you know, and of course, like, you know, remain whatever you feel necessary for being private.

00:33:32:02 - 00:34:09:06
Unknown
But what are some vulnerable liberties that you have or some flaws that you feel you have? And as an athlete, do you feel now? Do you feel satisfied with yourself? That's a good question. I think that I'll answer your last question first. And I think that as I've grown older, I've become and this might be forced upon me too, but I've become increasingly more satisfied.

00:34:09:08 - 00:34:47:04
Unknown
That being said, I'm still really driven and I still have goals that are probably unachievable for me right now. I'm still ambitious and all these things, but I think that a part of growing older is like it definitely not verging on complacency, but it's it's tent tending more towards contentment. A Because there's less time and mobility and, and opportunity to really change.

00:34:47:06 - 00:35:18:09
Unknown
I mean, not a lot of things can change, you know, and I don't want to make it sound like, like you know, I'm not evolving still because all that is definitely true. But I think I guess what I'm trying to say in a simple way is that I was very hard on myself when I was in my twenties, and I think that that internal voice negative self-talk was actually driving me in in a way that produced good results but wasn't always necessarily healthy for me internally.

00:35:18:11 - 00:35:41:03
Unknown
And I think that as I've grown older, I've found my inner voice to be a bit softer and to be completely honest, there are times when I feel like I have to fight to motivate myself more than I used to. But generally speaking, I think I'm finding a good balance and I'm and I'm more okay with that. So that's what I mean.

00:35:41:03 - 00:36:12:17
Unknown
Bye bye. I think that as I you know, things had things have evolved in that way. And then remind me what the first part of that question was again, what are some vulnerabilities are some things that I feel I have. Let's see. well, as far as like my physical body, there are clear weaknesses that I have that I am never like, ashamed to talk about.

00:36:12:22 - 00:36:49:01
Unknown
But just like power has always been really hard for me since I was pretty young. Stamina and endurance has been like my gift, if you will. And then the other things I feel I've had to work really hard on, like strength and power. I think like explosiveness has been really hard. And I've learned actually over this last year that limit strength, endurance is actually really hard for me, and I kind of have a feeling that it might be related to my overall, like strength level in general.

00:36:49:01 - 00:37:15:11
Unknown
Like if I'm if I'm too close to my maximum strength while trying to do strength, endurance, I'm basically just getting like, hammered by that. So, I mean, the but the beautiful thing about, like physical inadequacies is that then you if you're smart and you're a smart athlete, then you take note of those things and you put extra work into them, you know, And that's been fun.

00:37:15:11 - 00:37:39:14
Unknown
And even like these last two months, I've been training really hard and I had a session today. I felt really good. So I feel like I've turned the corner on a few things. I mean, you know, it's not permanent. It'll come and go, but but that's exciting, you know? And as far as like mentally, I think that I think that's something that I ran into like over this previous year.

00:37:39:15 - 00:38:09:09
Unknown
The second half of 2023 was really hard on me from a performance standpoint and like a personal, emotional. And I think that that something that's been both like a source, a a source of motivation, but also at other times a source of like real, like self-loathing is I really, I really judge myself based on like the, the day I just had kind of thing.

00:38:09:10 - 00:38:36:14
Unknown
Yeah, Yeah. So I can have like a really good year or a really good three years. But like, if I don't feel like I'm performing in the moment or if I'm unable to succeed at a goal that I'm that I'm after in this exact moment, even like something as silly as, like going to the crag and like, you know, but I know this might sound ridiculous to you guys, but like, maybe there's like a 14 or something like that that I'm trying to like, do quickly, right?

00:38:36:17 - 00:39:03:06
Unknown
And I'm feeling like, like I could have had the best training session ever two days before and like, just that, my big project or whatever. But then if I wasn't able to perform like how I feel, I should, then I would that it would like I would like spiral from that, you know. So but I think that there are times when that's helpful and then motivating to me because it's like it helps me to feel like always driven, like I don't really take the backseat.

00:39:03:06 - 00:39:19:14
Unknown
Like even if I've had a really good season or I've just said something really big. I have a lot of peers and I see other people in the climbing community that almost like coast for a season after that. And for me it's like, you know, the feeling of success might last like a like a week or something. And then immediately it's like, What's next?

00:39:19:14 - 00:39:38:17
Unknown
I have to keep going, have to use this mode. I have to use this as like a as momentum as opposed to like, like kind of better benefiting from this thing that I did one time, you know? Yeah. So yeah, I mean I can I, if I thought about it hard enough, there's tons of other you can keep going.

00:39:38:17 - 00:40:13:04
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. No I, I get the point you're making with the 14 where, you know, like, all these things are relative, right? They're relative to individual ability and psychology and your history. And there are so many things I'm wondering for some of these kind of traits we were talking about in these vulnerabilities and, you know, some aspects of your performance, what kind of like from a nature nurture perspective, like what kind of amount do you accredit to genetics and what amount you accredit to hard work you got into, You know what I'm saying?

00:40:13:04 - 00:40:43:08
Unknown
Yeah, Yeah. yeah, that's a great question. I well, first of all, I do believe that nature and nurture both play a role and how much attention mentally and physically you are able to give to any craft, like a great example is like I'm an only child. I grew up in a loving family. My dad was a rock climber.

00:40:43:10 - 00:41:06:08
Unknown
I didn't really start till I was 18. Like, he took me out as a kid, but like climbing five, six, you know? And I wasn't like on a youth team, like age ten, like most kids these days, but so I basically started at 18. But, you know, I had I had I was living in Boulder, Colorado, you know, like there's external factors that made it much easier.

00:41:06:08 - 00:41:29:17
Unknown
And like, I'll even go so far as to say that, like, the industry has changed a lot. But like when I left college, I let's see, that was 2009. So at that time I had a I just started with Arc'teryx. I had just started with La Sportiva. I had a couple other sponsors at the time, but I wasn't making any money.

00:41:29:17 - 00:41:45:20
Unknown
I was probably making like, you know, $3,000 a year or something like that. So I was working as a route setter at the Boulder Rock Club and I would basically set routes for three or four months and then they would graciously let me like go and just travel and travel for a little while and then come back and work, etc..

00:41:45:22 - 00:42:06:21
Unknown
But all that's just to say that I didn't have a pro contracts, I wasn't actually making any like I wasn't making a retainer until the middle of 2011. So I had like a two year period where my dad helped support me. Like I basically said, I'm I'm going to work part time as a route setter, but like, I really want to pursue this climbing thing.

00:42:06:23 - 00:42:54:03
Unknown
And he understood and he gave me 500 bucks a month, which is that is like, you know, I mean, that's a privilege that that along with the other aforementioned things that like most people wouldn't have and I do see that a lot like it is kind of unfortunate. The majority of really, really good climbers had like the financial and moral support of their families, you know, which is something that is kind of a bummer because that just indicates to me that there's a big there's a wealth of climbers out there that don't have those things and that could be the best or could be enjoying like some dream to be, whatever.

00:42:54:03 - 00:43:14:14
Unknown
But, you know, if the parents can't afford to take them to the gym three nights a week or whatever when they're a kid, then it's probably not going to happen for them or it's going to be much harder for them. That's a bit of a tangent, but to answer your original question, I think that for every person that I've met, it's some combination of nature versus nurture.

00:43:14:16 - 00:43:51:13
Unknown
For myself, I think that probably the biggest genetic gift that I've been given is just overall health. So I've been able to evade injury really well like, like, I mean, knock on wood, but I've had very, very few I mean, the worse two injuries I've had in my climbing were both from mountain biking. So it's like I've been able to evade injury and in a way that I'm it's been really helpful for me because I know people that can just like train endlessly and, you know, never get injured.

00:43:51:13 - 00:44:34:02
Unknown
And for me, certainly in my twenties, that was definitely the case. It's changing a little bit, but even still, given my age, I think I'm able to train with more volume than most. And so I think that that's probably my single biggest like genetic piece of like I guess jump off point or foundation or whatever. Yeah, but if I'm totally honest and, you know, I've never had like a geneticist or a scientist tell me this, so this might just be total bullshit, but I actually feel like based on people that I see, I feel like genetically like in some ways I'm almost at a disadvantage to a lot of people, professionals that I see, like

00:44:34:02 - 00:44:56:08
Unknown
I don't like. I know people that like, have never done any harm boarding and can just like one arm hang like a ten mile edge. And I'm just like, How the fuck can you do that? You know, there's there's kids, especially now, there's like 16, 18, 20 year old kids that I know the amount of training volume is a 10th of what I put in and they and the things they can do on a board or on it, you know, it's just insane.

00:44:56:08 - 00:45:33:13
Unknown
So I know that there's genetics involved with that. but again, I think that like at the end of the day, genetics are important and it might be like a, a amazing foundation and a good starting point for you. And you might start Father head, then someone else might. But man, I mean, at least what I've seen in my with my peers and with, with, with the best climbers in the world is that I do think that that dedication is more important than talent.

00:45:33:14 - 00:46:08:15
Unknown
And I think that the way digest failure is also probably more important than like natural born talent, because I know so people that are so much stronger than I am, but like, you know, had a bad season or have performance issues on rock and they just like, never overcome it, you know? Whereas I think the absolute best climbers in the world have that genetic starting point and the discipline.

00:46:08:15 - 00:46:33:07
Unknown
I mean, Adam owners, a perfect example, like I think genetically he's incredibly talented. And then on top of that, I mean, his work ethic and the level of dedication that he's put into climbing is like ten times. I mean, the guy, like, frickin like, mimics roots on the ground, you know, like, like stuff like that. You know, like he, like, went to like a ballerina to, like, help learn flexibility.

00:46:33:09 - 00:46:50:19
Unknown
Like he he's the level of like he's the only one who's taking climbing as seriously as like, LeBron James, Texas basketball. You know what I mean? And it shows because of that. Yeah. And I think that it partly it's the resources that he has because of how talented I mean because even when he was 16, he was insane.

00:46:50:19 - 00:47:12:12
Unknown
You know, So clearly, like, there's something going on there. Like, he was always really good. But I do think that, you know, he has the discipline and the patience to just like, keep at it in a way that a lot of other people, if they were that strong, there'd be like long bouts of complacency. And I think that they wouldn't like be trying constantly the way that he is, you know.

00:47:12:16 - 00:47:34:21
Unknown
Yeah, you had mentioned the word failure. What's the longest amount of time you've spent project in a single round. I, I can't remember exactly. I mean some of my first five four teens there was a lot of time like year probably like I remember there's a in the front range called Vogue It's like 14 be really hard 14 BE from Tommy Caldwell.

00:47:34:21 - 00:48:05:22
Unknown
This is the industrial war and I feel like I must have tried that like 60 days or something like that. But to be honest, like the route I've tried the most for sure is a project of mine in the sense in Idaho that's called the Fusion project, and it's basically it's this route that I did called Mall that's like a 14 D, There's like a little new section of climbing that's probably like the eight or nine.

00:48:05:22 - 00:48:34:22
Unknown
And then you go directly into like you basically go directly into this sort of algorithm. So it's more or less like 9av9 or something like that. So if I think about collectively the time that I spent like trying algorithm, which is the first percent that I did 12 years ago at the Fins, and then the amount of time I put into doing Mile, and then I've had three separate trips trying the connection and I still haven't done it.

00:48:35:00 - 00:48:53:20
Unknown
So I've probably I mean, I don't know the number of days, but it has to be 100 at least. And you had mentioned that failure is kind of like how how we process failure or how we handle failure is a determining factor between someone like yourself who is, you know, successful versus someone who might not reach their potential.

00:48:53:23 - 00:49:41:16
Unknown
Yeah. So how do you process failure? What is that like for you and what kind of advice can you pass along to somebody who might be struggling with that? Man? That's that's a whole episode for sure. But I think generally speaking, you have to see failure. Well, a gutsy failure as a part of the struggle and a part of the game like and again, that's what frustrates me about like those climbers who never show that aspect of their climbing online because it gives people this unrealistic understanding of performance climbing like you just send all the time and like every session is fucking rad and like, you know, you do everything quick and you know,

00:49:41:16 - 00:50:05:16
Unknown
blah, blah, blah. I think that first is just accepting the fact that it's a key element. It's literally like if you really think about it and you judge success is just like sending and then failure is everything but sending, then it's 99.9% failing. You know. So I think what's important is recognizing that it's a huge piece of the puzzle.

00:50:05:18 - 00:50:40:01
Unknown
And I think that one of the best ways to metabolize failure is to be critical of how you can improve physically, mentally or emotionally. So that you might be closer to success next time, might not even mean you're going to succeed, but be closer to success. So I think it's just generally about I think a lot of people see failure as like kind of the end of a certain evolution of some sort.

00:50:40:01 - 00:51:10:04
Unknown
But I definitely see it as like a piece of evolution instead. Yeah, I see that long as you're growing from the process, then failure is not the end of the road. Totally. And I think it's easier said than done. And I think that one of the hardest things about failure is developing a relationship with a certain route or a certain move or a certain, you know, you can take this any aspect of life that then creates anxiety or intimidation for you to want to try it more.

00:51:10:09 - 00:51:41:04
Unknown
That's the thing that's really that you really have to like. That's what I see really frequently, even with really high level climbers, is like, like repeat failure, creating a certain anxiety. Like imagine if you could go back to something that you failed at a million times and have a completely fresh attitude. It's so hard to do that. Yeah, and this is the way actually that I find climbing to be the most similar to other sports, like something that I've never played.

00:51:41:04 - 00:52:09:06
Unknown
But I just imagine like golf, right? Like, or tennis or any of these like point based things where I mean, football's the same or whatever, but it'd be so easy if you, if you had like a completely like if you are totally off the rails as far as like your reactions and your emotions, then you'd let like one bad player, one bad like golf event or whatever.

00:52:09:06 - 00:52:47:04
Unknown
Whole. Yeah, yeah. Like totally bone you and it would literally change way that your swing is for the rest of the day. But the best golf players and the best tennis players, they can have a really bad game or a really bad hole or whatever it is and start practically fresh on the next attempt. And that's actually an area where I think climbing still has a long way to go because, man, if you could come back to a project that intimidates you that you have a history with, and you could have that fresh attitude like, Yeah, holy shit, I mean, that could be a game changer.

00:52:47:04 - 00:53:13:22
Unknown
I feel like I think that sounds kind of almost in some weird essence, just the secret to life, telling whatever doing, you know, it's like how you, you get that stimulus of failure and then how you react to that stimulus. If you can somehow just override that, you know, recoil anxiety, depression and you just power through to just keep going and going, like just success through failure, essentially.

00:53:13:22 - 00:53:45:09
Unknown
It's I think the craziest part, though, is like, okay, one failure comes your way and it's like, okay, let me learn and let me go past it. But it's like hundred days of failing the same exact route over and over again, like talk about, you know, performance anxiety or, you know, you your failures, tainting the future, tainting something you haven't even done yet, your next performance, it's already hard because you have that next barrier and it just keeps getting bigger until you finally pull it off.

00:53:45:11 - 00:54:14:15
Unknown
Totally. Yeah. And I think that like for me, I'm really grateful and really lucky to have a big wealth of experience. Like there's routes that I've tried a lot, including that one that I haven't done. There's roots that I've tried almost that much and then succeeded. And so like what's benefiting me at this point in my climbing, I might not be able to train as many days during the week or whatever it is that I could in my mid-twenties.

00:54:14:17 - 00:54:39:18
Unknown
But I do have a wealth of experience to know that like, okay, I can come out and I can suck for one day and it's not going to mean, you know, if I was 24 and I and I was like making linear progress on a route and then I had two days of like backpedaling, I would probably like want to kill myself, you know, not, not actually, but, you know, I had the feeling and now it's like, my God, that happened this time to happen.

00:54:39:18 - 00:55:03:02
Unknown
This time, this time, this time, this time. And another drop in the bucket. Yeah, exactly. It's just like another thing that happened. And I and I actually went back and it was fine. I did it, you know, or I went back and I didn't do it. But then I did the next hard thing that I tried or whatever, You know, I think ultimately it's about finding a way to move forward and a source of positivity.

00:55:03:02 - 00:55:22:07
Unknown
No matter what you've run into, you can either have a really shitty day on the project or in life or whatever it is, and you can end that day by saying, I suck, I hate myself, and I'm like the worst. And you let you beat that attitude, You beat yourself up with that attitude, and then like, what's going to come?

00:55:22:07 - 00:55:51:20
Unknown
What positivity, what hot forward progress is going to come from that? Or you can be like, okay, I sucked today, but that, you know, God I'm like that under clean was impossible for me today. I'm going to frickin do bicep curls every other day for the next two months, you know? And then two months from now, that move is piss or, you know, that can apply to whatever other thing in life or whatever it is, you know, But just finding a way to, like, move forward in a way that's positive.

00:55:51:20 - 00:56:10:08
Unknown
And yeah, I think that kind of boils down the statement of like happiness as a choice. Yeah, you know, we, we choose our reality and choose how we process everything. You totally miserable from your circumstances. Or you can try to find a way to look at it and either turn things around and take action or be do things in a different light.

00:56:10:10 - 00:56:34:21
Unknown
You're in the end, it's your reality. Yeah, Yeah. When you do succeed after so many failed attempts, how long does that euphoria or do you instantly you're just like, All right, next. man, There's another thing. Like in my twenties, it would last like fucking 10 hours. I'm like well, I can, like, get drunk tonight. And then tomorrow when I wake up and I hate myself again.

00:56:34:22 - 00:57:09:20
Unknown
Yeah, You know, I mean, more or less. But now I know it's lasting longer and it just, I think also, like in the last couple of years, I've had a little bit different perspective just again, I have such a wealth of experience now that I'm just so grateful for, and I draw on it all the time that I actually think it's kind of helped me stay in that like blissful moment longer because like I kind of think of myself as like a read point collector, like traveling the world different.

00:57:09:20 - 00:57:48:03
Unknown
I love different types of climbing, different learning styles, you know, whatever it is. I mean, I mostly sport climb, but I also love try climbing and climbing walls and all that stuff too. And so I am I think about it as like collecting these memories and these experiences. And so I think now with that type of perspective, when certain when I, when I reach certain accomplishments, it's almost like I can feel that it's one it's something that's going to be in my collection forever and something that like I'll draw inspiration from for like a really, really long time.

00:57:48:08 - 00:58:14:12
Unknown
Like, for instance, this last spring I went to Santa Lena and I try to record Stoking the Fire, which on paper is a grade that I've climbed several times before. But for me it was clearly the hardest year I've done. Like, that's my that's the way that's the sense that I had like while I was doing it. And I did eventually climate on the last day I was there and it took a lot of mental and physical and emotional energy from me to succeed on the route.

00:58:14:14 - 00:58:47:20
Unknown
And like, like I, I honestly think I'll think about it, like, until I die. Just like, think about, like, how much I feel, like I, how much energy I feel like I put in to this project, like my relationship to the route and the story, you know, of feeling just so much uncertainty and so much doubt in myself and, and then yeah, like it's so cliche, right?

00:58:47:20 - 00:59:05:17
Unknown
But digging deep in a way that I felt like I like to be honest, I kind of almost feel like it was like too much. Like I think that in retrospect, I probably should have tried, you know, about half the amount of time I did and then like, changed my objective and train and come back or whatever, just for like, mental emotional health.

00:59:05:17 - 00:59:26:10
Unknown
Yeah, but I am really proud of like, how much I pushed to, like, make it happen, you know, and, and yeah, like I said, I mean, I think I'll, I'll remember that forever. So so yeah some, some of the memories definitely last for like a really long time but some of them still and that's the beautiful thing too right.

00:59:26:10 - 01:00:05:01
Unknown
Is there's always a relationship between how much energy you put into something and how much actually value it has to you. And so that's one thing again, that helps me push through like, you know, day 50, 60, whatever it is on X, Y, Z project is like knowing like this is going to mean so much to me if I can actually do it, you know, if I can ever do this thing, one day, it's actually going to have a lot of meaning where like I've done like some really okay, Like I've done some really hard routes that, you know, I did quickly or whatever.

01:00:05:02 - 01:00:22:00
Unknown
And like, those are mostly forgotten, if I'm honest, like what I remember the most and what has the most value to me is the times, even like the easier routes. But the times when I was like when it felt like it was everything I had, you know, like that's, that's what's those are like the best, I think. Yeah.

01:00:22:02 - 01:01:00:10
Unknown
And so, you know, you have an extreme amount of dedication and discipline and focus into this art of climbing. We edge as humans. Yeah. You know, where do you see you applying that level of dedication and focus to after. Maybe it's not as effective being applied to climbing. Yeah totally. I think that's something I do think about a lot and especially, you know, my livelihood coming from in part, not entirely, but a part of my livelihood is dependent on my performance.

01:01:00:10 - 01:01:39:07
Unknown
You know, And I think that I'd like to be involved in the industry in some way. And thankfully, I've built a relationship with several brands and most notably with Arc'teryx over now six years. And it feels like a family and it feels like a place that I could have some type of employment beyond my peak performance years, which would be great because I love all the people there and I love working for the company and just everything that they've given me and the opportunities that they've created for me has been amazing.

01:01:39:07 - 01:02:18:22
Unknown
So it'd be cool to continue to work with them or, you know, I can imagine working as well. Like I've always kind of wanted to influence climbing media, whether that's print and writing or, you know, producing films or producing content somehow for climbing. I think that nowadays that's like so much of where people experience culture and where the trends are set and where you can really like change people's minds about climbing and their experience of climbing and stuff like that.

01:02:18:22 - 01:02:45:03
Unknown
So I think that that could be cool. But I do have a lot of ambition in performance climbing for many seasons to come, and I do feel I'm 38 now and I'm, if I'm honest, I feel like the last couple of years I've been the strongest I've ever been. It's just that I need to. My approach has changed now.

01:02:45:03 - 01:03:06:22
Unknown
I need more. The main thing is I need more rest. But I'm I'm especially when I look at some people around me that are really influential to me, like B.J. Tilden is a great example. He's 42, and just last year he did like Clumsy 14 and I'm 515, so he's a really good friend of mine and he's somebody that I've climbed with for a really long time.

01:03:06:22 - 01:03:36:22
Unknown
And and there are other characters like that in I mean, Dave Graham is another one still climbing a super high level. Chris Sharma Obviously, where I see like some of people maybe slightly ahead of me, like as far as like age goes and still really pushing. And I know that every person, everyone, everyone's body is different. But I'm definitely ambitious to, to keep pushing for the foreseeable future.

01:03:37:00 - 01:04:05:20
Unknown
And then I do imagine if my brands and the the community of climbing is willing to give this to me, I do imagine there being a handful of years to where my focus would be way more on like long routes and more tried climbing and, you know, potentially taking the level down a bit, but maybe adding like some more elements of adventure or risk or whatever it is.

01:04:05:20 - 01:04:24:06
Unknown
I think I think that really interests me too. So yeah, hopefully I've got another if I want it very, really optimistic. I hope I got another ten years of being a pro climber, but we'll see. Yeah, it's awesome, man. Well, nice man. I mean, unless you got anything else, Max thing has a great place to leave it. It's a perfect place to leave it, man.

01:04:24:07 - 01:04:44:08
Unknown
Yeah, we'll leave it on a good optimistic note. Yes, I do have as. Yeah, always. Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on the show, man. Really appreciate it. It's it's been awesome having conversation with you. So thank you. Yeah. Thanks you guys for hosting and yeah, good to do look over the lights of Vegas and enjoy this weird penthouse for.

01:04:44:09 - 01:05:00:20
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome, man. We're good, right? We're good. Thanks, guys. Awesome. Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, Thank you, man. It's just been a blast chatting with you. Yeah, likewise. Yeah, Thanks. That's.