51 | From Battlefields to Mountain Peaks: A Veteran's Journey w/ Austin McCall

As climbers we are aware of the finality of our actions. The possibility of death is always looming. Paradoxically, knowing this, is what can make us feel so alive. We know our actions have consequences, and only through the mastery of body and emotions can those consequences be mitigated to avoid the finality of death. Our guest today is no stranger to death. Austin McCall completed 13 tours of duty in the military. Operating in both Iraq and Afghanistan with the army's 75th Ranger Regiment. In this conversation we discuss how Austin began to work with the Veteran Adventure Group where he plans and leads climbing expeditions around the world. We discuss his military service, a rescue on Denali, a whipper at 17,000 feet, the bonds formed through climbing and much more. 

A word of caution, This episode discusses combat, death, and an incident where Austin took grenade shrapnel to his face, it is graphic and heavy by nature. 

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Veteran's Adventure Group

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:49 Who Is Austin?
• 34:47 Denali
• 1:03:19 The Grenade Story

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:13
Unknown
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast, where Collin I sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides and recreational climbers like discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber. If you haven't already, please subscribe rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:24:11 - 00:00:31:16
Unknown
Hey everyone, please like subscribe and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is the best way to support the show.

00:00:32:23 - 00:00:36:23
Unknown
As climbers, we're aware of the venality of our actions.

00:00:36:23 - 00:00:39:13
Unknown
The possibility of death is always looming.

00:00:39:13 - 00:00:55:17
Unknown
Paradoxically, knowing this is what can make us feel so alive. We know our actions have consequences and only through the mastery of our body and our emotions can those consequences be mitigated to avoid the finality of death. Our guest today is no stranger to death.

00:00:55:19 - 00:01:18:16
Unknown
Austin McCall completed 13 tours of duty in the military, operating in both Iraq and Afghanistan with the Army's 75th Ranger Regiment. In this conversation, we discuss how Austin began to work with the veteran adventure group, where he plans and leads climbing expeditions around the world. We discuss his military service, a rescue on Denali, a whipple that took place at 17,000 feet.

00:01:18:21 - 00:01:34:07
Unknown
The bonds that formed through climbing and much more in this conversation. I'd like to offer a word of caution for this episode. We discuss combat death and an incident where Austin took grenade shrapnel to his face. That conversation is graphic and heavy by nature.

00:01:47:07 - 00:02:04:18
Unknown
Everybody. We're sitting down here with Austin. We're not going to give you an introduction here because we're going to give you a great, amazing introduction worthy of the caliber of an individual that you are. But Yemen, thanks so much for coming on the show and really happy you're here. How's it going? Yeah, I'm super stoked to be here.

00:02:04:20 - 00:02:34:14
Unknown
It's an awesome opportunity. And what it means to you guys. And good to see you again, Max. Yeah, that's just, you know, it's like I've actually met you in person for about, like, 2 hours on Denali, which is, you know, a really, really cool experience. And, you know, we were going from 4200 meters up to Camp three and the fix lines and, you know, ended up just trailing and having a good conversation with you and stuff and, you know, pretty, pretty excited that that has manifested into us being able to sit down and have this great conversation.

00:02:34:14 - 00:03:00:10
Unknown
So, yeah, that's really awesome. And, and, you know, songs are just technical difficulties. Everybody's here and, you know, nobody's raging and we're good to go. So that's really awesome. I speak for yourself, man. I'm ready. I was always raging. Yeah, that spot on the that had walls. Bruce But, man, that's a, that's a really beautiful spot. Mike Yeah, When you get tucked in behind that, when right there, I just it's like the best spot to, like, break away.

00:03:00:10 - 00:03:14:08
Unknown
Get off that rope team. Everybody chill out. I just had to break out my camera and just get a picture of everybody coming up, and I saw you two coming up. I just. It was just a perfect opportunity to meet you. Just say I get some pictures. And I was like, Hey, man, you know, great to meet you.

00:03:14:08 - 00:03:33:17
Unknown
What's your name? And I want to get some contact information and couldn't wait to send out those photos the media and had no idea, you guys. But chances are great you know podcast and the climbers that you guys interview it's it's really cool Yeah thank you thanks man that photo is actually I mean I'm not going to screen share like while we're recording right now, but that is actually my background photo of my desktop right now.

00:03:33:17 - 00:04:05:18
Unknown
It's like there's like. PHAWKER in the background, it's the most is static part on the entire mountain and it like the most perfect photo and you know, Ray, my girlfriend, she's just in the background so yeah, it was it was really, really awesome. So that was that was a great way to meet you. And everything meant, you know, for us, you know, we like to sometimes, like, dive a little bit back and, you know, for you, you have this, you know, something that really stood out for me when I was talking to you was obviously your, you know, your military service and kind of some of the things you discussed with me.

00:04:05:18 - 00:04:34:14
Unknown
And and that's such a fascinating and interesting story. And obviously, this is a climbing podcast, but I do think it's it's really relevant to obviously a the individual you are and the things you're doing right now. And so I'm wondering if you could, you know, jump back a little bit in time and maybe give us a little bit of an overview of how you ended up finding climbing through the military, if that makes sense, and maybe start at the beginning and we can just chat from there a little bit.

00:04:34:16 - 00:05:04:08
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. It's a interesting road. And, you know, I actually growing up in Flatland, Texas, on the west side of the U.S., I mean, it was kind of like a high school football kid, you know, a £250 guy in tight end and right tackle and, you know, class of 1200 kids. And it was suburbia. And Houston, like that was my my thing, played college football for half the semester before I realized, like, there's more to life than this.

00:05:04:08 - 00:05:27:01
Unknown
And, you know, I did enjoy that brotherhood in that time between like the hike of the ball and the ball, the whistle and like just rage an out and like, you know, just just that that moment right there, it was just it was everything to me, man. And and there was a war going on and there was a so that I really believed in fighting for my country, you know, defending freedom.

00:05:27:02 - 00:05:48:01
Unknown
911 I was sitting there, a sophomore in high school watching planes at the towers. You know, it was a was an interesting moment in time. And I believe, you know, my purpose was, you know, doing something relevant for my country. And with you know, the the Brotherhood. And I couldn't imagine a better bigger of brotherhood than the Ranger regiment.

00:05:48:03 - 00:06:19:05
Unknown
And so I joined that and I went in knowing I wanted to join that. And I signed up for six years and didn't even look back at 19 years old and 25 and gosh, found myself 2005 in Afghanistan, first deployment of 13 consecutive from 2005 to down 16 three Wild ride. Yeah, pretty hard talking about to be honest man I really miss really miss that brotherhood and that camaraderie and those times.

00:06:19:07 - 00:06:40:09
Unknown
But it's kind of interesting when you when you pick a career and that that that time you in between those deployments in that training you get it kind of evolve where you want your career and your specialized focus to be. So I was stationed over the Pacific Northwest and that was the first time I ever was really in the mountains.

00:06:40:09 - 00:06:58:01
Unknown
I mean, every summer I visit my grandparents in Colorado, I was just blown away, you know, hanging out at 10,000 feet and going for hikes. And that always felt like something I wanted to do. But in the Pacific Northwest, when you can wake up and see Mt. Rainier every day when you drive to work, I mean, that just just took your breath away.

00:06:58:03 - 00:07:18:02
Unknown
So, you know, when you know, after you're done with the you know, the drivers training, you got to do it as a private. And, you know, in the breach training you do as a team leader and in indoors. And after you learn to be, you know, the best gunfighter in the world as a you know, a Ranger, you know, a ranger stuck for and time where in squalor, then you kind of get to say, hey, you know what?

00:07:18:02 - 00:07:40:15
Unknown
I really want to focus in training areas and in mountaineering. So I went to the Alaska Mountaineering School. I was instructed at the Vermont Mountaineering School, and then I was kind of charged with you would call like a battalion master climber, if you will, But on rough terrain, evacuation courses, upwards of 80 to 120 other fellow Ranger and CEOs, team leaders and privates.

00:07:40:17 - 00:08:03:23
Unknown
And this is kind of being my thing. And in 2011, myself, the other guys and a retired first sergeant from Vermont Mountain School, we went up Denali. And that was actually my first challenge. Everyone was and all in 2011 was an incredible summit. Yeah, amazing, amazing First experience in my life. Yeah. Yeah. And that set the tone for it, man.

00:08:03:23 - 00:08:20:14
Unknown
Just. Just go hard, you know, when once there and you got the crew and you got the. The leadership and the talent and the will and the camaraderie and the guys behind you to do it, you push it and you go and you make it happen and you kind of complete the mission and the detectives. And that's what we did.

00:08:20:14 - 00:08:42:20
Unknown
And we got back and and that just carried me through for the the rest of the time. I see in the mountains and the rest the time I did in the military and the leadership that I kind of completed within it. And so moving out throughout my career, whether I was a squad leader or Ranger platoon sergeant or operate in a small island, GFC in eastern Afghanistan, in the mountains, I always kind of carried that through.

00:08:42:20 - 00:09:05:18
Unknown
Everything I really did was kind of planning, resourcing, objectives and targets when mountainous terrain, putting together small teams, looking at routes, how to get in and around positions of advantage, hydro rain, moving elements. Just this is just what I love. It was what I was good at, what I was trying to do. I couldn't think of anything else.

00:09:05:18 - 00:09:40:13
Unknown
I was good at and then myself out of the military in 2016, when not under ideal circumstances, but had to find a new path, tried my hand at college with three years into a dual major in chemistry mechanical engineering. But every summer go with a guy just a matter of check and his nonprofit veterans adventure group. And from there what we put on Mt. Rainier climbs every year for fellow veterans upwards of actually 36 veterans was the highest number that we ever put on top of our near one year with a climb that we did.

00:09:40:13 - 00:10:00:06
Unknown
And so I've come back every year since 2016 and throughout crazy accident that I had in 2020 with a firearm and then seizures that followed that through some TBI injuries and some injuries that I got in the military and juggling those kind of issues. Just mountaineering has became my passion for the last two years. That's all I do.

00:10:00:08 - 00:10:27:06
Unknown
I moved out to Colorado and focusing on ski mow every chance I can get. I get out. So I've been kind of bounced around between climbing solo in South America, Ecuador, solo in Argentina. The 36 year old last year went into another team in Argentina. This year, seven fall guys or six. I did a seven man expedition on Denali this year where I met you, Max.

00:10:27:08 - 00:10:47:15
Unknown
That went really well. That another two man ultralight expedition, Denali in 2019. And so, yeah, this is what I do now. This is where I was and, and it's all seizures. Felling Kick my ass and take me away one night. I mean, this is what I'm going to do until it gets me. So. Wow, man. Wild. There's just there's so much in there to unpack.

00:10:47:15 - 00:11:12:21
Unknown
It's really like a crazy amount of things. So, so, so when you initially climbed Denali, you said you climb that as your first down. Never. And that was through facilitated through the military. You were working with the military while doing that, is that correct? Right. That yeah, that's correct. So when you're when you're in the Ranger regiment, you you find yourself specializing in different things in between your deployments.

00:11:12:21 - 00:11:40:03
Unknown
When they come back, they want to progress your both ability and leadership. And you're obviously skills that you need on the ground, whether it's reaching gun fighting leadership of small teams, but also your specialized skills. And mine has always been, whether it's, you know, jump master or go in airplanes or whatever you have to do. Mine was always my enjoyment in the mountains, moving men, weapons, equipment over difficult rough terrain, evacuating casualties.

00:11:40:03 - 00:12:26:10
Unknown
I've done multiple mass calls. I've done jungle penetrator evacuations with helicopters of wounded individuals at 11,000 feet in Afghanistan. Just what I enjoyed doing, what I'm good at, what I'm rehearsed at practice that I've even done in reach. Rescues of guys with seizures at the top of the Ranger on the crater. But yeah, so in between those things, you kind of identify those things that you love doing and there is this opportunity, a good battalion, great battalion commander at the time, Ronnie, he wanted to just showcase some of our talent, was in a Ranger regiment and he had an opportunity to, to put together a small team and say, Hey, like these guys, look at

00:12:26:10 - 00:12:48:00
Unknown
what they're doing in Afghanistan. We may not be able to talk about everything they do, but look at what they can do physically and mentally. If we, you know, give them this task. An objective of climbing North America's greatest summit in greatest peak, Denali and not even knowing what we were getting into, we five of us said, Hey, we'll do it.

00:12:48:00 - 00:13:10:14
Unknown
We love to do that. We love that opportunity. And I'll choose the first time I was ever on skis, to be honest. But on some crazy ran an abundance of substances and and just getting up there but yeah that was a it was a really well first experience. But we all had the training, the intestinal fortitude, the physical ability, the mental toughness to be able to take on a challenge like that.

00:13:10:14 - 00:13:36:03
Unknown
And that's just something that I've seen across the board with special operations, with Rangers. The general is just that ability, and that's something that I've been able to kind of use currently right now with this Mountain Area program is go through and identify those are visuals during kind of our early climbs and find through leadership and team building to build those expedition teams that we can kind of push even further with those higher level climbs.

00:13:36:03 - 00:14:15:22
Unknown
But yeah, that's that's essentially where Denali took me. Then and where I'm kind of taking it now. Yeah. I'm wondering, like we don't have to dive too far into it, but I'm just curious like, do you, do you have PTSD from your time in the military? I think PTSD comes in a lot of different forms. Is this it's difficult to say and definitely a changed person by some of my experiences that I've had in combat and training with was just how I deal with stressful situations, with individuals and stressful situations.

00:14:16:00 - 00:14:36:09
Unknown
I would say I'm pretty good under stress, but these things can kind of manifest themselves in like tenseness, physical stress, inability to sleep. That's honestly one of the things that I find is one of the hardest things to deal with with seizures is to have some issues that I have with sleep that kind of tie in to that.

00:14:36:09 - 00:15:15:19
Unknown
I've only had, you know, I'm averaging kind of one every 9 to 12 months at this point, to be honest. But if I can't get that lack of sleep or I get something that kind of agitates some of those memories so much, they they do kind of like see me up at night in certain ways. I wouldn't say that's directly tied to PTSD, but those residual effects of combat, stressful situations, an intense lifestyle, if you will, do have effects on the mind of the body on the way that you look at life objective focus both in the positive and the negative.

00:15:15:19 - 00:15:36:07
Unknown
I wouldn't I'd say some of the my experiences that most people would call post-traumatic stress, arson, the things that lead me to be extremely successful in the mountains, both solo and as a member of a team or as a leader of an expedition. So yeah, it's a very difficult question to ask, but it is a very real thing and a real thing.

00:15:36:07 - 00:16:06:06
Unknown
I do support and I like to work with veterans on, I think being communicated with them and working with them in those teams in those environments is one of the best ways for them to both understand how they deal with those post-traumatic stress situations and also how I felt myself dealing with them. I couldn't imagine honestly living any other way with what I've dealt with or I have faced or I have done in my experience was in combat other than sharing.

00:16:06:06 - 00:16:35:21
Unknown
That was the mountains that I climbed both want and and with others. So I guess for me that something kind of I was I guess leading to is you know I think in the mountain community which we are all part of, there is kind of this proclivity for, you know, toughness, mental fortitude. And there is something interesting and meditative about suffering, you know, physical suffering in the mountains.

00:16:35:23 - 00:16:58:09
Unknown
There's something about it where and, you know, I'm not trying to compare myself to you or your service at all, but I know for myself, like I've struggled with depression and various issues in my life. And when I'm when I'm just working hard in the mountains, I've never experienced so much just peace and purpose in my life. You know, it's there's like a classic kind of funny climbing.

00:16:58:09 - 00:17:17:02
Unknown
I mean, that's like me climb rock mine head voice, go away. And it's like, but it's it's really accurate, you know, if you're you're hurting as a person or you're suffering and and the mountains call and you go out there it there really is just this this healing capacity year component to to being out there and engaging with the environment for that.

00:17:17:02 - 00:17:39:09
Unknown
So yeah I was just wondering like, you know, how that maybe does affect you and it does sound like I'm not putting words in your mouth, but it does sound like there is this of like, of, like the mountains giving you purpose in your life and healing you. Right? And so, yeah, I'm kind of like wondering like, you know what, like what about the mountains specifically for you?

00:17:39:12 - 00:18:21:21
Unknown
You know, like, have you, have you tried ice climbing? Mix, climbing or is mountaineering just that is the modality for you that is your calling. So I think there's there's there's a couple of different answers and you had a couple of your questions there. So on a solo perspective, there's often obviously that I that's the time where I push things to the absolute limit, where I find what exactly is my, my absolute final point of no return or my woman is with risk where my body can no longer go or my mind and my physical state has has found its ultimate limit.

00:18:21:23 - 00:18:48:20
Unknown
Chimborazo is a great example of that, or disorientation at night, not finding the right shadows on a crevasse where I absolutely needed another person just simply pulled me on the cross when I fell in because I know it was about to happen and there's just no other way. I just had to turn around. When you talk about the physical strife and and and the pain and suffering, I think those kind of moments have passed.

00:18:49:02 - 00:19:11:04
Unknown
And I always say that in a sense that I've probably experienced that, too. So many degrees where I no longer can identify or really truly find, I don't know, pleasure or that is an attainable goal at any point. I think right now my true enjoyment of that is as a leader, like in sharing those things with other people.

00:19:11:06 - 00:19:51:05
Unknown
And that's where I really get the most out of the mountains now is going up there with others, finding their limits, finding where they find that suck and that suffering and then pushing them just a little bit more, just to give them that that edge where they know what their limits are and then letting them know that they can go just past that and they can go even further past that as a group with the correct leadership, with the correct bonds and the communication and the right risk assessment, the right outlook, and right understanding of the mountainous terrain and and the big mountain environment and and the experiences provided within the entire group.

00:19:51:08 - 00:20:13:15
Unknown
Whether that group has been on the mountain before or not, I may I always try to lead on a mountain that I've obviously climb before but providing a little bit that insight like, hey, maybe just hold on a wait, let's see if the wind direction changes from the south to the southwest and maybe how that train will now funnel that wind or different direction and how that will change the different conditions and when slope areas and how they'll change when loading on the slopes.

00:20:13:15 - 00:20:33:08
Unknown
And we'll go over all that. And as we bond together as a group, we can change the way that we look at the objective and the risk assessment. And that's where I get the most pleasure and enjoyment out of the mountains at this time, as is the leadership aspect of that and sharing that with others by default. I mean, that's that's the that's my primary focus and enjoyment really now.

00:20:33:12 - 00:20:56:20
Unknown
But in terms of other points of climbing and everything that has to do with Big Mountains, you'll find me after that. And that's why I moved to Colorado, basically more skiing, more backcountry skiing. That's going to get me better and faster on Denali, hopefully get me on the West River in 2025 and take the next expedition up there live next year so I can squeeze in there under like, you know, I'm the snob now.

00:20:56:22 - 00:21:14:19
Unknown
So it's like it's got to be the perfect amount of snow and I got to just make sure I can get over that mountain in 45 minutes, get to the ski resort for everybody else, gets there, and it's got to be on a weekday. So I get right down to the lift and your rate is going to be there before it gets too packed and scouting out little sites where I know there's not too many tourists around.

00:21:14:19 - 00:21:43:03
Unknown
So but yeah, if I'm if I'm not actively working on the computer trying to build better processes and templates to share these mountains with other veterans actively out there, either recording them solo to find more climbs globally honestly for the program, or improving my own personal skills, whether it's mixed trad sport, ice, whatever I can get into, whatever is available with me and whoever wants to join me.

00:21:43:05 - 00:22:05:11
Unknown
I just know a lot of that stuff. To get better at it. You really have to have someone there to help you out and you know you don't want to do push myself solo at those limits where I can go any further. Like I just cannot wait to get back there and reattach with someone who's capable and able to be there with me or work on those and hone those little skills to be able to do it solo and just push it that much further.

00:22:05:13 - 00:22:33:14
Unknown
So yeah, hopefully that answers question. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Austin I have a quick question. So do veterans come to you or are you guys doing outreach with the VA? G Like, are you actively promoting this kind of lifestyle and these adventures to veterans that might be struggling with PTSD or struggling with their life, you know, depression? Like, are you out outreaching to these people or most of the people, you know, you require them to come come to you with the initiative?

00:22:33:16 - 00:22:52:20
Unknown
Honestly, it's really initiative based on these veterans who feel the way that we do. When you get to the point where it just builds up inside and you have you just want to be out there, you're going to work for us, you're going to find us. And those are the people that we want. I mean, we're we're a simple Google shirt.

00:22:52:21 - 00:23:24:17
Unknown
Search away and you'll see Veterans events group. You see multiple groups like us that that do extreme sports and environments and whether it's mountain biking, parachuting, bass jumping I mean the veterans adventure your group holds multiple events we have multiple programs with underneath us. So it's basically a group collective of different programs, whether it's a rock climbing mentorship in the East Coast, whether it's a scuba diving in and down the Florida Keys base shopping.

00:23:24:19 - 00:23:49:22
Unknown
I'm adaptive sports adapted skiing, just multiple programs that can always come and go that we partner with. And then we can add and support through the Veterans Adventure group. It just it seems to be that the mountaineering program has been the most robust that just in I have really focused on and worked with and just recently kind of with my kind of dedicated freedom, if you will, just has been my primary focus.

00:23:50:00 - 00:24:09:23
Unknown
And we've also built this awesome team of both expedition climbers that we've built over the last couple of years, as well as people who are willing to put in the time that the program with the website was kind of the overall documentation of like a corporate format, but also a a leaders intent and a structure and a drive.

00:24:10:03 - 00:24:47:13
Unknown
I almost kind of treat the program as if we were we were targeting mountains like we target high value targets, if you will, across the globe with almost a I hate to throw like a military mindset objective focused mentality on mountaineering, but it does work. It allows the skills that we've learned within the military to combine and come together and do these things and so when when those operators, if you will, in the military or people with those mindsets can kind of kick us out, it's a really great fit and we're able to immediately kind of communicate with them.

00:24:47:15 - 00:25:09:06
Unknown
And then there's like this all these incredible unspoken bonds and trust and language that there's no barriers between them. We can use acronyms and, and looks and and simple gestures and just it's pretty incredible what you can do whenever based on the same page with like mindset and it just it happens so quick we can cover that ground so quickly.

00:25:09:08 - 00:25:30:10
Unknown
Like on Rainier, we'll have 12 guys just from all over the nation who have never met each other, and some of them have honestly never been above 10,000 feet, have never put on crampons, never held an ice ax. And we'll get them up to your we'll vote crampons on their feet. We'll have them walk around the Callis glacier.

00:25:30:12 - 00:25:45:15
Unknown
And we built in a more training. Now we're going to go to your flats. So we'll do a little bit more crevasse rescue and get them right by. Sure. It is an advanced training, but from there, the conditions are right. You know, we have upwards of a 90% summit rate of getting them up to the top or near.

00:25:45:17 - 00:26:24:13
Unknown
So far, we've had 227 veterans in our mountaineering program and I think around 166. We've taken up Ranger over the last seven years. So it's been a it's been a pretty incredible journey. Yeah, that's fucking awesome, man. So I have a question actually about that. So what what what do you specifically attribute to that dramatic disparity? Because I think I read this article and it said that, you know, you just mentioned that 85 or 95% success rate for Rainier for your, you know, your group and compared that to the independent rate of 45%, it's like a dramatic difference.

00:26:24:15 - 00:26:52:14
Unknown
And, you know, it's not a matter of, you know, oh, well, we have more mountain experience when we go up on these mountains. Like you just said, you're strapping crampons on these people for the first time. So like, what do you attribute that giant disparity in success rate to? I say one one of them immediately is one of the reasons why Justin was so such an advocate, or him and I were such an advocate of building our own program was his first time out.

00:26:52:14 - 00:27:23:18
Unknown
Our runner. You went with a guy to group, and when one or two people within that group had to turn around for whatever issue it was, it was best for the entire group to turn around with them. When you bring more leaders within a group together with more capabilities, you can kind of work plans and work together to be able to just plan to work to split groups and people down continue up.

00:27:23:20 - 00:27:42:06
Unknown
So that was a one big, huge mitigation that we were able to kind of work. And as we built in processes to say, hey, we might we might have one or two guys in need to turn around at certain points so we can always slice off one guy with a shorter rope and we build in that contingency with the plan and be able to kind of continue forward.

00:27:42:08 - 00:28:09:17
Unknown
The other one is, is when we work with these dudes, they're such a there's such a passion to work with one another and be successful. And we set these objectives. We talk about objective focus. We our objective isn't a summit, it's what we make it out to be when we get up there. And that can be, hey, we're just going to get to the top of the DC, we're just going to complete this training and we're just going to get this far.

00:28:09:17 - 00:28:35:10
Unknown
We're just going to get that far and we communicate a little bit each step of the way. We communicate our concerns with the train, with the rest, with the distance, with the timing, with the snow conditions, with the ones that we're facing. And we're open about that. We have a different level of risk assessment too, because we do our own military risk assessment with the mountain and the conditions that were were faced at that time.

00:28:35:10 - 00:29:04:00
Unknown
We don't have a template in front of us that says, you know, by X, Y and Z, you must, you know, turn around. The great example is group one. We took on our near this year. We set in our tents at 94 winds and camp here. Everybody had turned around. We were the only people up there and we took off in early morning to get a sunrise kind of look at New York Flats over was at home.

00:29:04:02 - 00:29:22:18
Unknown
We had a great time and I was wondering, I was like, Hey, you know what? Still overcast. The winds are kind of coming from the north. You know, there's a cloud deck that's kind of shading the crowd. I was like, Hey, you know, go and grab a couple extra liters of water and snacks. We'll see how it goes if we push up a little bit further and, you know, hey, why not?

00:29:22:18 - 00:29:38:23
Unknown
You know, the snow was pretty firm. Let's go see what it looked like above the DC. Hey, you know, a special bit further and see how it goes. And next thing you know, we're sitting on the summit with a great, you know, five hour time, and we ripped that back down and we're the only people on the upper mountain the entire day.

00:29:38:23 - 00:30:09:02
Unknown
No one would ever push up, you know, late July, you know, with a 9 a.m. Steve from Ingram Flats. But with that knowledge and experience that we have both as leaders and talking to the individuals that we're working with, they understand the risk. They understand what we're doing. They understand that this is not a usual thing, but we can kind of communicate that, be on the same page, build that, trust this inherent with military veterans and continue to push on.

00:30:09:07 - 00:30:46:01
Unknown
And that just kind of been the theme the entire time. And it's it's about trust, It's about communication. And it's just everybody's on the same page. Everybody has the same mindset. And yeah, it's it all kind of contributes to that. And we've had great times too, when just the when is just absolutely like negative, not negative, but like 20 degree wind chills and pissing rain and everything at camp and we all just jump into this, this shitty climber hut or hey, maybe you going to guide services, kick all their clients in this shitty hot and we're go out there and build ice, block walls like we're in Denali.

00:30:46:02 - 00:31:16:05
Unknown
We are hot down in the camp, in the tents. We have a blast and we don't even go for the summit. But how? We just. Yeah, like those. Those are the best stories, man. Those guys had the best time, right? The coolest blogs and and have just the in the does stick together we're the those guys the ones that still communicate with everybody and yeah just I don't know how to describe it man yeah that's what it's all about that's the success the suffer fest that's what everybody shows up for to, to experience that.

00:31:16:06 - 00:31:37:14
Unknown
Yeah, that's each other. I don't know about you, Max, but the, just like you said, 90 mile an hour winds. I was reading the article about the Ranier where you guys are going up in a whiteout and everybody's wet and you guys are kicked out of the guide hut and you guys are crammed in the shitter and like, I don't know about you, but if I would have been already back at the car, you know, hours before that.

00:31:37:16 - 00:31:57:15
Unknown
So it just it's a testament to like what you just said, You know, you guys, it's it's a different breed. You guys are there for a purpose. And, you know, there's there's results that that drive that that kind of mentality. So it's pretty awesome that and then it's funny we all laughed like, oh shit, we forgot to bring in trash bags and all our stuff in our trash bags, in our in our packs.

00:31:57:15 - 00:32:21:02
Unknown
And so everybody's sleeping bags, Everybody's gear is soaking wet. We're freezing and like shaking in that hut. And then about 30 minutes later, bam, we all just start cracking up, laughing, telling jokes, and like we only get a couple of hours of sleep. But that's those laughs and those jokes. Those are the times where we had the best connections with everybody there.

00:32:21:04 - 00:32:51:16
Unknown
Like you can put like five years of therapy in those 30 minutes, man. It's pretty important. The pretty cool. Yeah. I think like two things that really are fundamentally standing out to me is like you're, you're essentially talking about being like process oriented, right? It's not outcome oriented. It's not like the it's great, like, of course, but like it's the process of like suffering, of being there, of engaging with the environment and then also like, morale and like having like a brotherhood, you know, like I obviously I'm not a like a past, you know, service in the military, anything.

00:32:51:16 - 00:33:12:09
Unknown
So it's like you have to build these kind of relationships with climbing partners. But obviously there's a very interesting dynamic with you all being like ex-service members, you know. So I think that that's really interesting. I've actually I mean, the first time I climbed Rainier, I went up with my buddy Nathan, and this was probably the second kind of big mountain I'd ever climbed.

00:33:12:09 - 00:33:32:21
Unknown
And we actually had kind of a pretty fucked up situation. Like, I still have my hubba hubba. And like, the tent poles are, like, bent into use because, like, it was like, you know, 70 to 80 mile an hour winds. You're sleeping there like the tent, just like just smashing you in the face. And it it is like it's it's a serious place, you know?

00:33:32:21 - 00:33:52:00
Unknown
Like it is. And except, you know, like I was I was so stressed out and didn't like Nathan. I have good friends, actually, but we were really stressed out. Like this was our first kind of like big mountain adventure like that together. And we didn't really have this. I don't want to use the word like, like this kind of, like brotherhood, Like there wasn't as much humor.

00:33:52:00 - 00:34:12:20
Unknown
It was like, much more serious. And that it's still like such an impactful and influential experience. And my own experience, I had a great time with him. But, you know, I think having that lightheartedness in dark times in that situation can really be like a huge differential for being successful or feeling good, you know, in in those situations.

00:34:12:20 - 00:34:30:06
Unknown
And and it's not easy to have, you know what I mean? Like, like it's not I get way too serious in certain situations and I reflect after the fact. I'm like like, man, you need to lighten up a little bit, you know, like, that's not going to be fun to be around if you're like leading people like that, you know, in some context, it's like, it's like, chill the fuck out, dude.

00:34:30:06 - 00:34:51:22
Unknown
Like, So, yeah, I don't know. It's it's just the reality of it, you know? But yeah, that's crazy, man. Well, that's really amazing, really awesome accomplishment. And it's it's great to see you guys doing that. Yeah. I've got to say, man, the best memories or sometimes the craziest, we had, we were coming in, we had we had a standing ovation coming down at 14 camp outs and all.

00:34:52:02 - 00:35:20:10
Unknown
We had to do a bit nervously, busy, busy on the the West. But coming down off our summer day, it was, it was pretty fucking nuts, man. So we actually had a guy get frostbite on our summer day. So this was 2023 man. And actually, yeah, yeah. So we, we, we had two guys turn back at the Denali Pass and it, man, it was a really rough I had we had to eat out with a five man road team.

00:35:20:11 - 00:35:51:11
Unknown
They got every freakin anchor on that autobahn get up to Denali Pass second team, met up with us to how to turn back around. One of the guys on my farm and summit team, you know, getting frostbite. Got him down, woke up the next day to the guys, turn around and immediately gone back down to 14 camp. As we push down to 14, we barely left these gorgeous walls and this this guy to group and they immediately took our spot and we pushed off We just got away from 17 camp.

00:35:51:11 - 00:36:10:17
Unknown
We realize these went through this insane we everyone on the team had this crazy prickly feeling on our back. Never experienced it. We all were in Gore-Tex. We all had two or three layers underneath our Gore-Tex and we had these spiky feeling on our entire backs, every one of us. It was the first time like there was an it.

00:36:10:19 - 00:36:28:23
Unknown
We didn't even like debate it. It was like a full on consensus stop here. It was barely. So we kind of moved back up outside. We buried and yeah, four dudes crammed in a three person tent, making it happen, get some water, wake up the next morning, like we literally tell everybody, Hey, man, just go and drink all the water.

00:36:28:23 - 00:36:51:03
Unknown
It's not worth the wait. Mr. Fueled this beer and we just got as loud as we possibly could to get down the West. But but I mean, it was like 50 mile per hour sustained winds, gusts up to 70, trying to get down to off Washburn stump. We man I've never been I never been pushed so much to the max in the limit.

00:36:51:03 - 00:37:12:01
Unknown
I had my cell phone. I started trying to hook up as many anchors as I could. Now, we had a guy took a huge whipper on blue eyes. He transition with this ax and his right hand of his rear. He tumbled over the front and went down, pulled out the second to last guy off his feet. Luckily, there is one little Caribbean or hooked on a piece of thread.

00:37:12:01 - 00:37:30:14
Unknown
Also an anchor for the entire team on their ass. It was nuts. Finally got to the head wall, you know, even getting down on the head wall, we're screaming at each other and yelling at each other. But, you know, that's what it's all about. We had a guy popping across the bottom that had wall drop, a ten down, almost a 14 cam.

00:37:30:16 - 00:37:54:00
Unknown
You know, we track that and find that and we get down to 40 and we realize there is not a single person moving on the upper mountains that of us, and get the standing ovation when we get down to 14. And and the only way to kind of deal with that is we're looking at each other and we're just like we almost faced certain death that like multiple points was like just to, just to grin like give each other hugs and be like, Dude, we fucking made it.

00:37:54:01 - 00:38:11:15
Unknown
We do what we had to do. We got back down. Let's go check on our buddy with frostbite. And so, yeah, went into the park entrance and they try to and try to, you know, let me have it. And you know, obviously as a, as expedition later, I got a lot to account for for one of my guys getting frostbite.

00:38:11:15 - 00:38:27:02
Unknown
And I had a lot to face personally on my own for for that. I take you kind of personally when one of my guys gets hurt like that, but there's a lot behind that, too, as well. But, you know, there's nothing to feel but stoke, you know what I mean? Like, we made it. We push it as hard as we could.

00:38:27:02 - 00:38:52:13
Unknown
We we hit the max. We know what that maxes. We and we survived and we got down and we loved every second of it. We tagged the top where no one else did. We let out from 17 when everybody else turned around. And we're pretty proud of ourselves. And and now those are the memories that, you know, we we sit there and we we laugh about we call each other up on the phone and we just can't wait to just do, hey, do remember that story, dude, That was insane.

00:38:52:15 - 00:39:15:23
Unknown
Team Blackwater, Fuck water. We don't need that shit. You know, like extra weight up that, you know. So, like, yeah, yeah, all those little moments of adversity. Then they kind of bring it closer together, even as crazy as it can get sometimes. But yeah, it's good shit. Yeah. I mean, wow, I'd like to unpack that. Flew icefall a little bit.

00:39:16:01 - 00:39:39:15
Unknown
So real quick, just for, you know, congruency here, this event that you just talked about was that while you met Max on the mountain, this is the same trip that had been like a week after almost or less just last couple of days after, right? A week after. Yeah. Yeah. After what? You left, Max, or I probably would have still been on the mountain, but I think I was lower down at that point.

00:39:39:17 - 00:40:06:11
Unknown
Okay. Gotcha. And so yet just I'm just curious, in terms of this fall, can you, like, break that down a little bit in more detail in terms of the circumstances and what exactly happened and how you guys got out of that, that specific situation? Well, I mean, honestly, the whole situation starts quite a bit back as Max knows, the the conditions in all of this year and from the three trips up that it had there was horrible.

00:40:06:14 - 00:40:23:13
Unknown
The summit windows, there weren't like these nice three, four day beautiful weather windows where you kind of get yourself in position, make some solid plans out there were these really shitty 36 hour windows of luck and you never knew when they were going to pop up. You just had to put yourself in position to take advantage of them.

00:40:23:14 - 00:40:49:19
Unknown
So we were did our Caché beautiful, gorgeous Caché day. I think that was probably when Katie was was accomplished there. A bunch of teams made a great summit window where I met Max there on our are beautiful day just great weather and we get down to 14 and the following day I bring everybody in the town. So I'm like, Hey guys, You know, according to our windows, we're going to miss or flight off the glacier.

00:40:49:20 - 00:41:11:16
Unknown
I even I even knew at that point I was going to miss my brother's wedding. If we if we went for the top, I was going to miss my brother's wedding, which I wasn't too happy about. Although I'm not a fan of dressing up and going to weddings, but we're going to miss a brother's wedding. And we had to put the objective in front of a lot of a lot of horrible possibilities and conditions.

00:41:11:16 - 00:41:35:04
Unknown
And and I was actually kind of the voice of reason. Like, you know, this is this is probably not a great year to make this decision. And this would be the point to make the call. We can I can forecast the future enough to say like we probably want to not go up. And the team decided to decide the objectives and make the summit opportunity the best call.

00:41:35:04 - 00:41:53:03
Unknown
So we pushed up the 17 and made that a sat there for three days, monitored the weather. I really trust the weather, by the way. I think that's actually the the best form of of weather forecasting I've ever experienced in mountaineering in the last couple of years has been super successful for me. But I saw the winds are going to change.

00:41:53:03 - 00:42:14:16
Unknown
We had a great summit push. Tell you what though, it was fucking one of the most difficult days in my life. 16 hours up there digging out those anchors. So we were absolutely exhausted for a 16 hour summit day and pushing down guys are exhausted, dehydrated. And so we were coming down off that following day. We were just done.

00:42:14:22 - 00:42:45:16
Unknown
We were absolutely done. Had we were is a funny quote and we have it on video. Guy says We didn't know that the summit day was preparation for the descent of £17. And so yeah, and no shit. I mean, that's exactly what it was. And so we are more bubbled up with more gear, a more mentally prepared to execute this task of getting off the West buttress, which I think is the most beautiful part of.

00:42:45:16 - 00:43:11:20
Unknown
Denali on any portion of that mountain coming down that thing and and we decided to execute the descent and in less than ideal conditions but we also knew we had to get down there to our buddy who at frostbite. And we knew that getting down there to the Rangers to making the possible flights, everything getting out there. And when you weather wasn't going to improve either, we just we needed to get down.

00:43:11:20 - 00:43:39:11
Unknown
That was what we had to do. And and so we we mitigated as much risk as we could. We forward loaded, you know, myself, we with all the Caribbean ers and we talked about hitting all those anchors. But, you know, the winds are going so bad, guys, goggles are getting fogged up. We're trying to mitigate as much as we can, like yelling back for everybody to give me percentages of how much they could see and interpret In the zero 30%, I can only see 10% of my goggles.

00:43:39:11 - 00:43:57:12
Unknown
Oh, shit. You know, like, you know, how are we going to do this? And and we're getting down and, you know, a certain point on the blue ice, like you're holding yourself up, which just you know, a 10th of your crampons and your your legs are going to absolute muscle failure while you're you're waiting for guys above you on probably more solid ground to do that.

00:43:57:12 - 00:44:20:02
Unknown
Last bit of adjustment. And you're going through your head like, do I really can I hold on? My legs are shaking. How much longer before I go into muscle and then do your really want to exhaust myself? I, I'm so tired of doing the screaming burpees bar fees so my fingers won't freeze. Do I really want to unhook this last carabiner and hooking this last piece pro?

00:44:20:04 - 00:44:43:10
Unknown
And those moments right there were I think was the hardest for me because I, I, I, I had to mentally think to myself, how many carabiners do I have? When are they picking up that last one? And am I too exhausted to throw on the next one, or should I just wait to the following next be pro Are we on a piece of ground and all two exhausted all look back Why?

00:44:43:10 - 00:45:03:17
Unknown
They are screaming that they go and see other you know 10% out of their fucking goggles and we were on the worst place to stop. And and you know, I'm constantly hearing falling behind me falling, falling and you know, guys are getting to self arrest. I'm prepared to jump down. Guys are holding themselves up and you just you got to keep on pushing.

00:45:03:17 - 00:45:21:10
Unknown
You got to keep on pushing. And that's what the team wanted to do. We were all decisive on our objective, which was getting down to 14 camp, and we just kept on trudging along, kept on charging along and Max, I don't know if you know this, I remember the same these anchors, I'll never forget them. I know I won't.

00:45:21:10 - 00:45:54:13
Unknown
But there's there's two to ice pick down there with a you know, a 13 mil static rope with a couple loops in between it hanging between two pickets. It's about a meter across. And after a Caribbean right there and and a rope and a transition between the second man and it was about to be unhooked by the third and that's when that that fourth guy tumbled and he tumbled right over head over to you, got old man and went down on his back, completely flipped over, slid down that blue eyes, ripped off that third guy off his feet, and he just yanked that.

00:45:54:13 - 00:46:16:20
Unknown
I mean, just straight out of a movie, just pop up, slide and rip that second guy off his feet, yanked him back like weight on my harness, yanked me back. And luckily, that was enough for them to slide vertical underneath that anchor and get in a decent sulfurous position and get that fourth guy down, tumbled back over and walked in and got everybody situated oriented.

00:46:16:20 - 00:46:40:09
Unknown
I mean, there's nothing to do. But we actually, you know, in true Ranger fashion, we look back and Marine Army pilot, another Tucson fire Ranger about buddy of mine and myself, we look back, we just kind of give him shit like a Ross man could fall on you fucking asshole or something like that, you know? I mean, just kind of slap it, you know, talking it back up like, Hey, do you got it?

00:46:40:09 - 00:47:03:16
Unknown
It's all good. You set? You ready to go? Like, shake it off? But it's all good. And we hollered back on and keep on getting and we get back down to the head wall. And because of that fall too, I mean, like, you know, now his crampons are falling off. We're digging out, you know, Gerber pliers out of my pack and, you know, getting this crampons even tighter and straighter and getting all this figured out.

00:47:03:16 - 00:47:28:22
Unknown
Why everybody has, you know, their giant summit mitts on. And I'm trying to keep my rubberized ice climbing mitts with, you know, fleece glove liners and shaking them out and getting everything figured. And then we start making our way down the head wall. But these are these are all interesting cascading decisions that, again, started at 14 camp with the situation in weather that we talked about it, 14 that we talked about every single day.

00:47:28:22 - 00:47:56:08
Unknown
It's at 17 camp that we knew that we're coming on the summit day that we've been talked about on Cash Day. When we met you, Max, we when we dropped off for cash and we walked down and we enjoyed these gorgeous views over 14 that like 2000 I mentioned to him, I was like, hey, guys, we need to be able to move more efficient and faster on the West buttress, you know, come the day when we had these giant heavy loads or trying to descend down.

00:47:56:08 - 00:48:26:13
Unknown
Probably the most dangerous part of Denali is the descent from 17 back down to 14. You know, all these things from kind of a leadership in understanding the mountain perspective were identified and were addressed, and it just kind of came to fruition in those moments. But I hope as a team, as a leader, during those moments of communication, that's what made us both accomplished that objective, but also survive some of those events.

00:48:26:15 - 00:48:48:23
Unknown
But yeah, it was it was fucking awesome experience. Yeah, it really sounds like you were you, you, you were all looking for the challenge, you know, because I think like in some, like classical, like more classical style of like modern alpine ism is like people would probably just advise, like, don't take on the risk, Don't, don't do that if that makes sense.

00:48:49:00 - 00:49:15:13
Unknown
You know what I mean? Like, that's more like, like a more classical mentality of like, what's going on now. And it really sounds like, you know, you, you all made the decision that you actually wanted to take on more risk. You were willing to to to go for the opportunity. Right. And like, as long as that's a conscious decision and, you know, you know, you guys are making that decision and willing to go and your risk tolerance is higher and you're going for the sense of adventure, I think.

00:49:15:15 - 00:49:46:08
Unknown
Yeah, I think it makes sense. You definitely have. And like I can hear it in your passion and stuff like that. Like you guys, you guys, it sounds like you got what you were looking for in some kind of a context. So that makes sense, you know, like, yeah, got the adventure, got something hard. We do pride ourselves in the fact that we were, I want to say pride because I have the utmost respect for for guides, what they do, the training that they're receiving, their expertise in the mountains and the skills they have.

00:49:46:10 - 00:50:13:21
Unknown
But we provide ourselves in that we, we lead through experience the mountains and the leadership and the the skills that we learned within the military, in our own personal experiences within the mountains ourselves. And we trust in that. In our risk assessments, we learned within the military. I mean, thought guys, I mean, shit, we were 28 years old with operations with 900 Afghans in Afghanistan, in eastern Afghanistan.

00:50:13:23 - 00:50:40:16
Unknown
You know what I mean? Like, I'm making life and death decisions with half a billion dollars, with the assets above my head, my control, you know, with the hundreds of lives, you know, I can I can work with a team of five incredible climbers and individuals and brothers and sisters around me and make some good, smart judgment calls and decisions as a team of climbers on a mountain.

00:50:40:18 - 00:50:59:23
Unknown
That's what we're good at. That's what we do. That's what we're about. And that's what we do. That's what we try to do on every expedition. We don't. We let those that group of people, that team, those expedition climbers make those decisions with the mountain, of course. And that mountain always has the last say. The conditions always have the last say.

00:51:00:01 - 00:51:20:11
Unknown
But that's how we we assess the mountain. We climb, as you know, a couple bodies on the mountain, making our own decisions, making the most of the experience and the conditions and the climb. That's in front of us for sure. So, yeah, no, I think I think that's that's, that's really interesting. Yeah, it's a cool honestly, it is.

00:51:20:11 - 00:51:50:03
Unknown
And I mean makes sense, you know. So something else I'm wondering here, like I was reading in your article is like you in a separate occasion were awarded a soldier's medal for rescuing people from Mt. McKinley. Is that correct? This is a separate situation, right? Correct. That was 2011. Yeah. Yeah. In 2011, we pushed up to 17 count.

00:51:50:05 - 00:52:20:18
Unknown
The night we got there was around 2300. And it was a little rough conditions for that day. And I believe that group, it was one of the last few days that they had up on the mountain and they had pushed up to the summit. And during their descent, the winds changed up there above not pass. There's a really tricky situation when you come up the autobahn, there's a certain notch that you have to aim for to get off of Denali Pass and begin your ascent up towards a football field.

00:52:20:20 - 00:52:53:15
Unknown
And if you missed that notch on the descent, you come out way for far on the climbers, less on the autobahn. And if you do that and you transition onto the autobahn, you're better protected from the winds that you experience on the Denali pass. But you must now traverse on a really not ideal when slope sheer face on the autobahn to the actual autobahn route and the anchors and I remember kind of working up around 2300 and seen a team of climbers a little bit less to the root of the autobahn.

00:52:53:15 - 00:53:21:03
Unknown
And I kind of go back in my tent and then everybody else out there, they, you know, we hear kind of yells and and gas. And I guess that team or what did happen was that team, as they were traversing from the the incorrect kind of notch on the Autobahn or the Denali Pass, traversing back over to the Autobahn, one of the team members had slept and they were unable to self arrest as a team and they were tumbled all the way down the mountain.

00:53:21:05 - 00:53:47:07
Unknown
I can't speak there for every single detail on the exact rescue because it was a giant 20 to 30 minute effort with a group of PJs park rangers that were up there at the time and a team of five Rangers and the former Vermont first sergeant who was out there with us. But we assisted in the to individuals died.

00:53:47:07 - 00:54:19:23
Unknown
But we assist in the rescue of two that were alive, one with attention, you know, with an ice ax to the chest and severe frostbite face and everything else, and were able to get them down and and get them rescued. But a very unfortunate accident. But, you know, we learned so much that day. And I would like to think that experience also saved myself, my life and Justin's life in 2019, when we did have a more of an ultrawide a sense of Denali on a I had to go from something that's almost kind of silly and funny to at the same time.

00:54:19:23 - 00:54:39:22
Unknown
But in 2019, on day six of our ascent, we we went to go do our cache. We're feeling a little good and we actually did our cache at 17 and we pushed all the way up. I don't know what we were thinking, but we thought maybe we can go ahead and summit on after a cache a day and push all the way up.

00:54:40:00 - 00:54:59:00
Unknown
And I think the even wrote about it in the program reports this. I think I've made it every year. I've climbed in all I've made the park ranger report but so we we we fish on the fish up above you know I pass and we kind of keep on going and we're like, man, we're exhausted. But I think we can just put one foot in front of the other and like, you know, we'll keep on going.

00:54:59:00 - 00:55:16:23
Unknown
If this group turns around in front of us, I guess we'll turn around to the conditions are really getting shitty, but we'll see how it goes. And so, man, that group turned around and they all the ass down and we really didn't have it in us to kind of keep up with them. And sure enough, we found us in that same position that, that, that group that fell on 2011 did.

00:55:17:01 - 00:55:51:23
Unknown
And, and we were we were shooting for a gap that would put us out of the wind as fast as possible and our goggles were fogging up. We're in the same condition that we were on on the West Buttress and 2023 and again, this the same experience is what helped, you know, the guys in this shared leadership that was able to I hope, to help them and help us safely get off the West buttress because I knew not to touch my fucking goggles under these conditions, but we're fogged up or our hands are getting colder, our gloves are coming off and all we wanted to do was get off Denali Pass and pop over that

00:55:51:23 - 00:56:14:04
Unknown
edge onto the Autobahn. And I was about to do so, and I realized I am nowhere near the route. If I do this, I'll be able to win, but I will have to traverse all the way back over to the Autobahn. And I knew in my head like this is exactly where this team killed. They died. They did they did this exact thing under these exact circumstances.

00:56:14:04 - 00:56:32:04
Unknown
And when they did so, they took one fall and a slip and that's what killed them. And so we did we we just suck it up, push back to that notch, found the route to get back on the Taliban and made it safely down. And that was honestly one of the craziest, probably one of top five business days in the mountains.

00:56:32:05 - 00:56:52:20
Unknown
My life. We get back down to 17 camp wall some water, realize how crazy that was and probably how stupid that decision was. But again, and great lessons learned. And we don't think we make it down to 14 camp till about four or five in the morning. And yeah, beautiful sunset or slight sunset as you see that that sun for a moment.

00:56:52:20 - 00:57:15:03
Unknown
But yeah. Yeah. Then is an incredible mountain shot. Awesome. Some amazing stuff. Yeah, I'm just curious, how many times have you stood on top of Denali? Three. I've been up there three times. So on top. Four times. Wow. And plans for a future. Obviously. Yeah. 20, 25. I can't believe I'm going back up. I think I will. Yeah.

00:57:15:05 - 00:57:46:04
Unknown
Wow. I like to do that this time, though. I just. I can't even believe that the two two people of that group survive falling down the Autobahn. It's just like I think that actually has the highest fatalities of any point on the mountain. Statistically like that's I think was at the ranger station. But yeah, just the idea of like it's just like hundreds of meters of wind scoured brutally steep, like to just fall down That whole thing, especially as a group getting pulled is just I don't even understand how you survive that.

00:57:46:04 - 00:58:08:03
Unknown
But yeah, clearly that's. Did you know if the two people who got rescued, did they actually survive in hospital and everything, or did anybody pass away afterwards? You know, they did survive the two that did not make it. They were they were dead by the time we got to them. And I mean, to be honest, it was it was a massive group effort.

00:58:08:05 - 00:58:45:18
Unknown
I didn't get hands on the actual the the wounded individuals or the bodies just, you know, simply call on ropes and help and drag and doing things like that, insisting with the rescue. But this was a huge effort by everybody that was out there for sure. I I'm curious. I'm curious. Your you have basically come to the edge of life and death many times in the mountains in the military, more than most, I would say.

00:58:45:20 - 00:59:05:13
Unknown
What is your relationship with death? What is your. Yeah, what is your relationship with death like? How do you view the value of of life and its relationship to, I don't know, ending in the situations like obviously you thought about it. I would I would imagine kind of break that down a little bit. I know it's a heavy question.

00:59:05:13 - 00:59:06:15
Unknown
I'm just really curious.

00:59:08:22 - 00:59:17:07
Unknown
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00:59:17:07 - 00:59:39:12
Unknown
I, I also I don't want to die. I, I, it's hard to describe. I, I, I don't want to die at all. I want to live forever if I could. I live forever in the mountains and push things. The woman as far as I could every single day of my life just to experience living as much as I could.

00:59:39:14 - 01:00:15:04
Unknown
I don't I don't like to fall under the cliche that the closest you come to death, the more you feel alive, but that those experiences have given me so much appreciation for the life that I have and with the seizures that I currently have now, and as close as those have brought me to death every single time that I have, I'm it just reiterates the fact of how much joy I have to be alive and experienced those things that I have in the mountains that make me feel alive.

01:00:15:06 - 01:00:47:18
Unknown
And if those things are pushing me to the absolute edge of death, then so be it. But my love of life and desire to stay alive makes me, I think, a good set to share the mountains with others. As a leader because I'm going to keep them alive from way before I ever want to keep myself alive. Because those men and those women that follow me on a mountain or on my rope team are my absolute priority, just as they would be if I was in combat.

01:00:47:20 - 01:01:08:22
Unknown
I always put, you know, them in front of me, I found. Yeah, Thanks for sharing. I was just curious. I think that you you have a lot of perspective there and just an interesting relationship with the amount of risks that you take on and the experiences that you had. So yeah, Max Yeah. I'm just wondering, do you think your experience in Afghanistan has like, like changed your risk tolerance towards others?

01:01:08:22 - 01:01:46:10
Unknown
And do you notice the same thing maybe with the veterans you work with? Does that make sense then? Gosh, yeah. I mean, it sure does, man. I've 13 deployments. Everything I've done three to Iraq from fast roping on the rooftops to bombing down the Euphrates and swift boats and to freakin gosh, man, 100 missions in 90 days in Iraq to one every three days in Afghanistan, point out targets with 10-K and fills and five x fills and and and it is kind of funny in the mountains it's it's still to me a motive.

01:01:46:10 - 01:02:14:18
Unknown
And so it's just all part of the training to get to the objectives it's it's just a walk that's how we were trying to do it as we land on one side of the mountain ridge to get to the other side of the mountain ridge or the target site or walk one trail to get to another trail. And you still have to save all the energy and all the focus and everything for what you're about to experience on the objective, but simultaneously being ready for anything on the way there.

01:02:14:20 - 01:02:44:18
Unknown
And I don't know where that kind of ties into to the risk tolerance of of kind of all that. But yeah, I don't know where I kind of got off on that, but that that's, that's how that's how Afghanistan and Iraq and the things I experienced there, I guess how to translate into the mountains is, yes, it's completely changed my outlook and and even how I approach the mountains, I guess too, as well.

01:02:44:19 - 01:03:06:06
Unknown
Yeah, No, totally, totally understandable. Man. Thank thanks for sharing. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to I don't want to press the point in in. And if you're not interested in answering, we can totally cut it out. But I'm kind of curious. Like, I noticed, like, you haven't really mentioned the, the events that led to you getting a Purple Heart.

01:03:06:06 - 01:03:30:09
Unknown
And I think it's the Bronze Stars. I correct. Is that like, is that something you. Yeah. Bronc worthy. Yeah. With valor. Yeah. Is that something that you feel comfortable talking about or is it something you're not interested in at all? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure it's out there. Yeah. There was a target 2010 in Afghanistan when there was a suicide bomber in his draft.

01:03:30:10 - 01:04:08:20
Unknown
An assassin? A certain target. I was a squad leader at the time. A young one, albeit I would have done things quite a bit different now. We knew he was in a certain section of the compound. My particular job on that moment of that deployment was, the bridge and squad. So we'd go up there, we'd play a bridge and on the bridge for the bridge and, and take the initial foothold in the compound as we were kind of prepping or positioning ourselves on that compound, receive contact from the individuals inside where we kind of knew were those the suicide bomber and his maybe fighters were at the time.

01:04:08:22 - 01:04:29:00
Unknown
And the decision was made by the leadership of the platoon to go ahead and breach and and make contact with then and being gung ho kind of young squad leader. You know, my immediate action is like, All right, let's go explore this, Brisco, and let's smoke this dude and figure it. You know, that's what we're trying to do.

01:04:29:00 - 01:04:55:05
Unknown
So, you know, we lay a bridge on, we blow it. You know, I lead in probably a little bit faster than I should have. I should have kind of made sure I had a full stack behind me and work my way in there. But I push and cut right into the guesthouse where I knew he was. And there was a bomber kind of standing inside of the doorway of the guest compound, yet kind of two things in his hands that were he was holding, one of which he kind of threw my direction at that point.

01:04:55:05 - 01:05:16:17
Unknown
I pumped about six rounds into on and I felt something hit my neck. And I mean, it was like the classic pineapple grenade, which is the Russian f one kind of I can see in Vietnam that kind of hit my neck. And seldom I see know, I kind of turn my head to yell grenade to my guys. And then, you know, I hear an explosion and then all of a sudden something rips through my face.

01:05:16:18 - 01:05:40:18
Unknown
Felt like someone just took a baseball bat to me, kind of goes slightly unconscious for a little bit, roll across the ground, kind of come to me, really kind of wake up, fire back at the compound. And then this kind of weird feeling comes over me of like, what the fuck? This is dumb as fuck. And then I stand up, I grab my guys, I pulling back out of the compound, I get him back out.

01:05:40:18 - 01:06:06:15
Unknown
And this it was the weirdest feeling. I, I kind of started pounding, if that makes any sense. I kind of knew the fight was over for me. Like, you know, my feel crunching of. Of jaw and bone and teeth in my face. I can't feel my chin, you know, I feel like it's all knocked off. I feel blood just pouring down my my neck and into my body armor into my clothes.

01:06:06:17 - 01:06:27:22
Unknown
And so I unbuckle my my helmet. I take off my my helmet and I actually throw it on the ground and I kind of walk out of the compound, even though it is essentially a firefight. I know I smoke the day the dude's dead and so the threat is pretty much over. And I sit down and now I'm just focused on maintaining my airway because, you know, my my fucking tongue is blown apart.

01:06:27:22 - 01:06:47:07
Unknown
I'm missing half my fucking face at that point. And, and but long story short, the cool kind of thing is, is the the grenade that was actually thrown at me and hit me in the chest or hit me in the neck and sold on my seat. The ten stayed in the grenade and the ring actually ripped through the pan.

01:06:47:07 - 01:07:06:22
Unknown
And I'm sure it remained on the guy's finger. And that thing never went off and stayed actually by my side. Runner's knee, you took a knee there and kept on playing rounds in the building going on. And the other grenade that he had in his hand when I shot him and he fell back, that actually went off on its chest.

01:07:07:00 - 01:07:38:19
Unknown
And I believe that one was like a Pakistani kind of grenade. It's like a plastic little steel ball bearings on the inside. I think that one was the one that actually went off and one of those ball bearings went through my face. But but yeah, that thing worked out pretty well. But that was such an awesome lesson learned on how to be tactically patient and how to better lead in those type of situations that are high stress scenarios in combat against an enemy that's trying to take your life like I do things completely different from now.

01:07:38:20 - 01:08:03:02
Unknown
Or that was 2010 and I was a Ranger leader, senior NCO for six years following that and oh gosh, probably seven more deployments. So, you know, there's so many different ways those situations in which I've done in the future from a sound you talk about it on here but yeah you like facing those scenarios is a so many better ways to kill a bad dude instead of combat.

01:08:03:02 - 01:08:20:04
Unknown
And just looking to ambush you when you're trying to get in there and shoot him in the face. And I'm not going to get myself shot in the face again. Yeah. Yeah. I hope. Man. Yeah. Did you? So I read that you, uh. Yeah, I read that you returned to deployment or you turned to combat a month after that accident.

01:08:20:09 - 01:08:42:22
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. So was that by choice or by, like, did they assign you That was 100% by choice. So. Wow. Yeah, I, yeah, I'm sitting there with my helmet off and they were. Yeah, the medic. I remember when he looks at me and he is the nasal pharyngeal, it's a little plastic thing. Try to shove up your nose to get behind your, your throat to get better, get your airway.

01:08:43:00 - 01:09:03:04
Unknown
And so I'm trying to shove that in my nose. He's trying to shove that in my nose and we can't get it. And then he holds out a cricket like he's going to put a hole in my neck and crack me to give me a your way. I just shake my head and I assure them that I can breathe through my nose as long as I've been forward and let all the blood and teeth and bone and shit just look out my face and I'll be fine.

01:09:03:07 - 01:09:21:21
Unknown
And so I maintain my own airway and I. And I'm gather up all my shit and the helicopter lands and I actually walk out to the evac bird hop on, and they take me to the base and I walk out and hop on a stretcher and they knock me out in the little forward operating base that we were staged at.

01:09:21:22 - 01:09:49:07
Unknown
And I wake up in Bagram and do the medical the medical support staff and everything out of Afghanistan during those times is just absolutely incredible. The work that they did on me in Bagram, Afghanistan, is the last time they touched my face, Last time they touched my my teeth, everything. I still have the crazy tongue still half apart and missing half of teeth.

01:09:49:07 - 01:10:17:07
Unknown
But I figure it out. I yeah, since some other crazy gunshot wound that I had and and some other stuff. I'm the man and it's funny and all some other crazy things, but I make it work. But yeah. Anyway so after while so after Yeah. After that. Yeah. I get, you know a week later I'm in Germany. They can't figure out how to get, you know, feeding tubes means starting soup.

01:10:17:07 - 01:10:33:12
Unknown
And then I figure out how to eat peanut butter and oatmeal. And then I get back to the United States, and then I'm sitting there, I'm like, Hey, man, I can eat all the peanut butter and oatmeal in the world and sustain calories. And why would you have me sit around for two months while my guys are still over there and there's a rotator going back?

01:10:33:12 - 01:10:53:01
Unknown
And what's give me a logical reason why I can't go back? And they really couldn't. And I think from a mental perspective, I just needed to get back out there. And so less than 30 days later from getting getting hurt, I was back back there kicking doors and shooting suckers in the face and just doing what I needed to do.

01:10:53:05 - 01:11:20:02
Unknown
So. Wow, that is wow, man. That's that's just. Yeah, really, really heavy. Like, really, really crazy. And I just don't I, I think like the mentality of just like, getting back in the fight, whether that's like on the mountain or just facing something or a challenge. Like, do you like, for example, like, you know, me civilian never served in the military, anything like that.

01:11:20:02 - 01:11:53:09
Unknown
Like the idea of going to combat or or something like that, like is really scary. And I've even had traumatic incidents in the mountains and thinking about those, like I'm kind of struggling with them on some level like, you know, psychologically dealing with them and going back into them. Is that something that you feel you kind of you have that as well to like, do you have this self-doubt out and you're second guessing yourself and you're going whether that's back to the mountains after a really hard experience or that's back in the military, are you like second guessing yourself and having all this, you know, these issues, or are you able to just kind of

01:11:53:09 - 01:12:13:05
Unknown
like dissociate? You're like, there's a fucking job to get done. We need it. We're going to do it. Like, how how are you in that situation? It's is amazing you brought that up because it was a combination of the two. So when I got back to Afghanistan, of course, that first mission, like you're jittery, fuck you can't, you can't really sleep, you don't know.

01:12:13:05 - 01:12:31:19
Unknown
But once you're back in it, it all comes natural. It's your train, it's your falling back to it's your team, it's your squad, it's your, your pursuing that's behind you. It's. It's the man. It's the mission. It's the Ranger regiment, the Ranger Creed. It's. It's everything that you've. You built. You're trained. It's your love. It's what you do.

01:12:31:19 - 01:12:51:16
Unknown
It's who you are. And you fall back into that immediately. And you're either born to do it or you're not. And that's what, that's. That's the answer, to have that. And then as a leader, you know, I had a really interesting challenge after Denali when, you know, essentially one of my guys got frostbite I mean, it was it was almost worse than the deployment after 21 days.

01:12:51:16 - 01:13:12:23
Unknown
They're missing our exfil my brother's wedding. And guy had a really difficult time with the relationship. Sorry to laugh. Funny. Yes. You and your brother on good terms or what's going on there? We don't. You know, it's I understand he's got to he's got a cool photo of me in like a picture with, you know, I'm all like, you know, long haired out and shirt in there.

01:13:12:23 - 01:13:40:05
Unknown
But, you know, but it was like a miniature deployment. Everybody had these, you know, insane experiences on Denali, and we all had to kind of deal with them. And as a leader, I had to, you know, think really hard about how I would look at mountaineering and and leadership and and how to go back, you know, like how how did I go back in Afghanistan and do those things after I got hurt?

01:13:40:07 - 01:13:59:00
Unknown
How it is that individual who who lost his, you know, almost lost his toes. I mean, he probably should have got his pinkie toe cut off because that's given him a hell of a time. How does he go back? And he's going back with me on Aconcagua. You know, he he absolutely wants to go. And I've seen more frostbite and I can guagua than I ever have on Denali.

01:13:59:02 - 01:14:22:14
Unknown
But he he absolutely and it's his right foot to song. He's going to do his own traverse but he he's all about it and that's kind of that's it goes another question that's how veterans are that's how we do this is we we we face our challenges and we push through and we we face them head on. And we know that we have the trust and backing of the guys around us to get through those things.

01:14:22:16 - 01:14:44:00
Unknown
But yeah, that's a huge component is is how you deal with that. But you rely so much on your training and experiences and those around you build you up and, and yeah, it's a huge part of it now. Like it's a brotherhood in that community like, like you guys are building, you know, the, the climbing majority and it's a huge community out there.

01:14:44:00 - 01:14:59:09
Unknown
I mean, shit, I've been on Instagram. First time I've been on Instagram was a month and a half ago, and I put a little picture up that I submitted to you and not solo. And I had a crazy experience. I fell down. I got lucky on Popcorn, Snow and almost killed myself in this little Class five section, and I just got super lucky.

01:14:59:09 - 01:15:13:16
Unknown
And this guy hit me up and he was like, Hey, man, you know, I'm you're out. And I was like, Oh, cool, dude. And I, you know, screenshot in my real and a couple heads and what's up? It's just the community is out there to support you and what you want to do and and there's just all you got to do is ask.

01:15:13:16 - 01:15:32:00
Unknown
And if you fall off a horse you know, people are there to help you get back up. It's going nice, man. I mean, Max, I don't know about you, but I feel like we're coming close to to the end here time wise. And, you know, you cool with that? I think that was a really great place to end.

01:15:32:02 - 01:15:52:12
Unknown
I do have I honestly am curious and, you know, like, I've one last question. We don't have to end on this. If if you're not interested. But I'm just wondering, you know, do you do you feel remorse for, you know, like having been a soldier and taking someone's life like in the military or like how how do you contend with that?

01:15:52:12 - 01:16:17:02
Unknown
Or do you just view it as like, you know, like you were in a situation and you have to do what you do? Like, how do you like do you struggle with that? Is that something you struggle with? Yeah, she said that, you know, it's this is a very weird way to look at it. And I don't know how other people would feel the same way.

01:16:17:04 - 01:16:41:17
Unknown
I look at it more as like a cause and effect tool. You know, if you're called to a task and you're a tool of your generation in peacetime, I guess maybe I was a mountain climber in a past life. Maybe if I didn't have seizures and I didn't have a hole in my face and I wasn't have another hole in my chest from another gunshot wound and issues with my gut.

01:16:41:18 - 01:17:06:21
Unknown
You know, I probably be able to be a better mountain climber. And but, you know, in a time of war, maybe I'm a ranger leader in the mountains and and that's who that's who I am professionally during that time. And the era of this generation and this period of time in the world. And so that's who I am, who I was, who I still am, I guess.

01:17:06:23 - 01:17:35:14
Unknown
And there's there's no regretting who I am. And that's just the way it is, you know, a tool in the toolbox tool for my nation. I served it and I'll I'll move forward with my head up. That's all I got to say. Yeah. Thanks, man. I really appreciate you coming on the show. You know, I'm Canadian, but I have immense respect for anybody in military, police, law enforcement, all that kind of stuff.

01:17:35:14 - 01:17:57:21
Unknown
And thanks so much for your service and what you've done. And thanks for coming on the show. And I think it's amazing what you're doing with you know, I personally love the acronym badge. I think it's great. You know, I really like it. I think you guys I think what you guys are doing is awesome and and look forward to hearing more of your success and watching you guys down in South America coming up.

01:17:57:21 - 01:18:08:03
Unknown
So thanks so much again. Yeah, thanks for this opportunity. It's been an absolute joy. Thank you.