45 | Developing Wild & Untouched Boulder Fields w/ Brendan Baars

The cool thing about climbing is that it means something different to everyone. From the weekend warrior trad dad to the dedicated dirtbag, each of us has our own reasons for interacting with the vertical plane. For Brenden, he has always wanted climbing to mean something to him, and for his efforts in the climbing community to mean something to others. With a natural proclivity to bouldering, Brenden, on his first outdoor bouldering trip during his first year of climbing, sent a v9. At first, it seemed like his direction was going to be focused towards becoming a professional climber. That was, until he found the art of route development and a brand new area that houses hundreds of undeveloped classic bouldering routes... This conversation with Brenden Baars, is about how he found what will be the next big destination for climbers to get a taste of what being ‘disconnected’ and climbing in nature feels like Plus, he says the climbing is GOOD—really good.

Welcome to the Nooks….

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Resources

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The Nooks

Mountain Project

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:43 Who is Brendan?
• 16:35 Route Setting
• 21:50 The Nooks

Transcript

00:00:00:16 - 00:00:27:00
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone. Tile here. Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast, where Max and I sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides and recreational climbers alike to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber. If you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:27:02 - 00:00:50:05
Speaker 1
The cool thing about climbing is that it means something different to everyone. From the Weekend Warrior trad dad to the dedicated dirtbag. Each of us have our own reasons for interacting with the vertical plane. For Brendan, he has always wanted climbing to mean something to him and for his efforts in the climbing community to mean something to others with a natural proclivity to bouldering.

00:00:50:07 - 00:01:24:03
Speaker 1
Brendan, on his first outdoor bouldering trip during his first year of climbing, sent a V9. At first it seemed like his direction was going to be focused towards becoming a professional climber. That was until he found the art of route development and a brand new area that houses hundreds of undeveloped classic bouldering routes. This conversation with Brendan Bars is about how he found what will be the next big destination for climbers to get a taste of what being disconnected and climbing in nature feels like.

00:01:24:05 - 00:01:45:05
Speaker 1
Plus, he says the climbing is good. Really good. Welcome to the next.

00:01:45:07 - 00:01:46:06
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:01:46:08 - 00:01:58:02
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, you'll get a good introduction and everything before you come on. But hey, everyone, we're back here with the Climbing Majority podcast, and today we are speaking to Brendan Barres. Hopefully I got the. Is how you pronounce the last name.

00:01:58:04 - 00:02:00:00
Speaker 4
Yes, it is. Boris.

00:02:00:02 - 00:02:06:03
Speaker 3
Well, I'm notorious for mispronouncing last name, so, you know, we're good to go, but yeah. How's it going?

00:02:06:05 - 00:02:11:01
Speaker 4
I was going great. Thank you for having me on the podcast. Love climbing, Love talking about it.

00:02:11:03 - 00:02:13:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, us too. So, you know, it's a great fit.

00:02:13:12 - 00:02:15:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.

00:02:15:06 - 00:02:20:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, we usually just get started here by, you know, giving yourself a little introduction. So fire away. Tell us about yourself.

00:02:20:19 - 00:02:54:00
Speaker 4
All right. I am a rock climber from Grand Rapids, Michigan, born and raised here. I got into climbing 11 years ago. You know, your typical story of friend takes me to the local climbing gym and, yeah, I immediately. Well, I mean, gosh dang it, we just started the podcast. Am already messed up, so. So I was in college freshman year and I was a collegiate runner.

00:02:54:02 - 00:02:58:19
Speaker 4
I was all right. I was getting really burnt out by the sport, though, and I.

00:02:58:19 - 00:02:59:18
Speaker 1
Feel you there.

00:02:59:20 - 00:03:25:18
Speaker 4
The summer rolled around, a buddy took me to the climbing gym and I loved it. Like immediately it was like, I know a lot of people say that and it's probably the same for those people. But like I found something that day in climbing that that I like. I still hold to this day like it just a pure love for something that I happen to be really good at from day one.

00:03:25:20 - 00:03:42:06
Speaker 4
Strength wise. And I loved it so much that I actually ended up going back to the gym the following day with eight flappers on my fingers and with no friends. So that was just like a match made in heaven.

00:03:42:08 - 00:03:48:23
Speaker 1
So did you start rope climbing? Was it a bouldering gym like how large was your scope right away?

00:03:49:01 - 00:04:10:20
Speaker 4
So both rope and boulder, it's a small gym actually happens to be, I think, top ten oldest climbing gyms in America. Wow. It's called Inside Moves. And so I started climbing there and didn't do much rope climbing at pretty much Boulder my whole climbing career. So. So, yeah.

00:04:10:22 - 00:04:28:12
Speaker 1
Nice. And then you so you said you were a collegiate runner. Did you were you runner since you were like a young kid? Like, did your family bring you outdoors? Like, did you have kind of, like an affinity for the outside? I know you're in Michigan. Winters are pretty rough up there. Like, I guess round yourself out a little bit in the past in terms of your relationship to the outdoors.

00:04:28:14 - 00:05:05:00
Speaker 4
Yeah, right on. Yeah. Running was a big part since middle school. But, you know, I ran through middle school, through high school and into college also. I swam and did track. So when I talk about running at long distance running, running, I was a cross-country guy. And then outdoors. Yeah. Like I had a great family. They, they my whole childhood, camping, hiking, backpacking out west when I was in high school, the Wind River range.

00:05:05:00 - 00:05:23:02
Speaker 4
And my dad is a huge hunter and fisherman. So, you know, I grew up doing that since like, since I could remember. We have old video footage of me in a tree stand with, you know, camel all on camel face mask. That's like half over my face. And my dad's like, did you see the deer?

00:05:23:02 - 00:05:23:20
Speaker 2
And so.

00:05:23:21 - 00:05:42:22
Speaker 4
Just, you know, I grew up in the outdoors as much as possible while living in the city. So. So that kind of just was a one big stepping stone into climbing, which is, you know, which is taking me from indoor climbing to a huge love for outdoor climbing. Well, cool question here.

00:05:42:22 - 00:06:01:01
Speaker 3
So you were saying that Michigan has one of the oldest climbing gyms in the country. And I'm just wondering, I know of Michigan Ice Fest. I know you guys have some pretty rad ice lines all over. I forget which one of the Great Lakes it is. But like, if you can just round me off a little bit on the topography of Michigan, like, is there bouldering outside?

00:06:01:01 - 00:06:05:14
Speaker 3
Is there root climbing outside? Yeah. What's it like?

00:06:05:16 - 00:06:35:19
Speaker 4
Yeah. So I would say out of all the 50 states we are probably number one or two in the worst states to live in to be a rock climber. It's us in Florida. If you live, you know, anywhere further down south in Florida, you're screwed. We're screwed in Michigan, there's no there's no rocks. We have one. We have one outcropping of rock about 45 minutes to the east of Grand Rapids, right in the in the center of the Michigan hand, you could say.

00:06:35:20 - 00:07:00:05
Speaker 4
And it's called Grand Ledge. It's crappy sandstone. You can't even put bolts in it so bad. But for us, it's all we got. You know, it's not big. There's there's not even a boulder there. It's just like this small cliff line that's maybe 40 feet tall at the tip. So and it's climbed out like it's there's everything's been done over and over and over again.

00:07:00:05 - 00:07:00:18
Speaker 4
So.

00:07:00:20 - 00:07:01:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, no.

00:07:01:20 - 00:07:07:20
Speaker 3
Cool. Thanks. Thanks for filling in on that. I just I think it's it's nice to kind of know and how well you're standing.

00:07:07:22 - 00:07:29:14
Speaker 4
So that is lower Michigan as as you guys you know as I described the the hand but the upper peninsula like like you said on Lake Superior there's a there's a ton of ice climbing and then there's there is rock as you go into the upper Peninsula to the west. But it just so happens that that is also like 8 hours away.

00:07:29:16 - 00:07:37:10
Speaker 4
So is the Red River Gorge. So where are you going to choose or you just choose, you know, the Upper Peninsula or you're going to choose world class climate.

00:07:37:10 - 00:07:42:09
Speaker 3
So yeah. Yeah. And go into the Red River Gorge sounds like.

00:07:42:11 - 00:07:43:09
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:07:43:10 - 00:08:03:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, for sure. So I guess, you know, you kind of said you're this runner. I'm assuming you were really fat guy. You probably have a good physique as a long distance runner. You get into climbing and you're climbing really, really strong. Like what kind of grades? Like were you getting in climbing into? How natural did climbing feel once you started to get into it?

00:08:03:08 - 00:08:40:13
Speaker 4
I, I can't particularly put grades on it. I guess maybe the five, the six day one. I would guess maybe I would really go back and test myself. But there was no technique and it was like me versus the rock or the plastic, and it was just all muscles, you know? So I don't know, I was I was pretty fortunate and naturally really gifted genetically for climbing for some reason, which doesn't sound like it translates to long distance running.

00:08:40:13 - 00:08:46:05
Speaker 4
And I still don't know how that works with type one and type to twitch muscles, but I don't know.

00:08:46:07 - 00:09:09:00
Speaker 3
Yeah. So you need to get like a muscle biopsy or in general. I mean, obviously there's just so many factors going in there. But if if you have the right muscle type, the right body size and you're super fit, you know, person with a good aerobic base like hypothetically, you're primed to do pretty well as a sport and, you know, throw a whole bunch of passion in there and your gear on on a good start right So yeah where did your where did your climbing progressed?

00:09:09:00 - 00:09:11:04
Speaker 3
You like how did it progressed from there?

00:09:11:06 - 00:09:31:16
Speaker 4
Well, you know, I started to like go to the gym like five or six days a week, just obsessed with it. And then and then inside moves the gym. The owner would actually take groups of people down to the Red River Gorge. Do this big camping trip, and, you know, teach you how to climb. And it was really cool.

00:09:31:16 - 00:09:56:08
Speaker 4
And so I did that for a year, maybe maybe a year and a handful of trips. And and so that's where that went until but I didn't really of course, I loved it. You know, I love any form of climbing, but I really love bouldering in the gym. So. So then I met, you know, a different group of climbers from town who loved bouldering and would take bouldering trips.

00:09:56:08 - 00:10:19:11
Speaker 4
And they took me on my first bouldering trip, which was down to Arkansas. And yeah. And so that just like sparked this like thing for climbing outside and bouldering outside particularly, and that, you know, the dangers that come with it and just fell in love with that and had had an epic time on that first, first trip down to Arkansas was.

00:10:19:11 - 00:10:21:08
Speaker 1
That Horseshoe Canyon Ranch.

00:10:21:10 - 00:10:26:02
Speaker 4
Yeah, it was Well, and Cowal, like right down the road I think as well.

00:10:26:02 - 00:10:29:06
Speaker 1
Place is awesome. I was there gosh was Horseshoe.

00:10:29:06 - 00:10:33:10
Speaker 3
Canyon Ranch is an awesome name. Side note.

00:10:33:12 - 00:10:34:02
Speaker 4
It's just.

00:10:34:03 - 00:10:37:00
Speaker 3
Cool and I want to go there. I don't know anything about it. I just like the name.

00:10:37:01 - 00:10:54:09
Speaker 1
It's it's crazy. Like it's nice little valley and these cliffs all around it and the horses on the ranch are free to roam wherever they want. And so, like, you wake up and there's fuckin five horses outside your camp and you walk up to them. You know, I was given a big hugs, you know, It was just like the energy was really, really good.

00:10:54:11 - 00:10:54:15
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:10:54:16 - 00:11:01:23
Speaker 4
So literally a ranch like that then. And then you're allowed to climb there for, you know, ten bucks or five, five bucks a day or whatever it is.

00:11:02:01 - 00:11:15:17
Speaker 3
That's. I love it. I love. Yeah. The ranchers, just whoever they are, is just down, you know? They're like, Yeah, you can do this. We're going to monetize this. And climbers are like, that is sick. That's awesome. I really I really love seeing that kind of stuff.

00:11:15:19 - 00:11:16:15
Speaker 1
Absolutely.

00:11:16:15 - 00:11:29:22
Speaker 3
For sure. So we're like, from here, you know, what happened with with your climbing? You know, you started taking these trips. You started focusing more on climbing. You know? Yeah. Why don't you just keep taking us down that path?

00:11:30:00 - 00:11:58:01
Speaker 4
Yeah, right on. So, you know, the years progressed, I got more and more into climbing where, you know, suddenly I'm. I'm working at the climbing gym. I started to kind of set my first problems of the climbing gym and take more and more climbing trips down to Chattanooga, Tennessee, Georgia, just anywhere down south, continuing to go to the Red River Gorge occasionally and kind of just like chasing grades.

00:11:58:01 - 00:12:22:20
Speaker 4
At that point in my young career, I guess you could say my first climbing trip, the Arkansas trip, actually, probably had one of the best outdoor trips for a year, one climber, probably, that somebody could have like their first opportunity to climb outside besides, like a couple trips down to the red and then our crappy cliff in Michigan, which was So I was brought there.

00:12:22:22 - 00:12:44:06
Speaker 4
I climbed my my first outdoor boulder, which was before, and then I climbed my second outdoor boulder, which was V seven. And then I climbed my third outdoor boulder, which was V ten at the time called AB Lounge. And, and that was like I was like blown away by what I just did and was like, ecstatic. And then that ended up getting downgraded.

00:12:44:06 - 00:13:06:16
Speaker 4
I think to be nine, but it doesn't matter is still really cool. And so that kind of like started my pursuit of like I love hard climbing. I want to go do more of that. How hard can I climb? And I don't think I climbed my second B ten for another year or year and a half like that.

00:13:06:16 - 00:13:25:17
Speaker 4
But yeah, that progressed to just traveling down long weekends, a couple of week long trips down to Chattanooga, you know, Stone four and Rock Town and pursuing as hard as I could climb I guess that's incredible.

00:13:25:17 - 00:13:39:11
Speaker 1
That's honestly I don't know about you, Max, but that's like the fastest I've heard of in terms of somebody achieving some sort of, like grade basis, like in a single year, zero to V ten. That's like, that's awesome. That's incredible.

00:13:39:13 - 00:13:41:20
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's actually outdoor V ten. It's like.

00:13:41:20 - 00:13:43:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly.

00:13:43:03 - 00:14:07:11
Speaker 4
I will say, you know, I'll put a like a thing on that where I, I don't know what podcast or talk I was listening to, but somebody was talking about how they sent, they didn't deserve the send that they had. Like they, they got lucky almost to do it before they had put in all the work. And that's, I think that's exactly what happened.

00:14:07:11 - 00:14:12:01
Speaker 4
Like I got lucky to still I think like I didn't deserve it.

00:14:12:03 - 00:14:24:09
Speaker 1
Still, I think that it speaks to the level of fitness and proclivity you had to the sport in general. I'm curious, do you like so I can't see it because you sit in a chair. Are you tall? Short what? What's your height?

00:14:24:10 - 00:14:29:07
Speaker 4
Five. And with a negative half inch shape index.

00:14:29:08 - 00:14:30:10
Speaker 1
So. Okay. All right.

00:14:30:12 - 00:14:38:21
Speaker 4
Normal. Yeah. And they if you want to go through it all, I'm four go from 145 to £150 here or there.

00:14:38:23 - 00:14:40:19
Speaker 1
Okay. It's funny.

00:14:40:19 - 00:14:48:22
Speaker 3
What you were just talking about your appendix. For some reason I was envisioning like, I don't know why, but just like, some total genetic freak, like a basketball.

00:14:48:22 - 00:14:49:15
Speaker 1
Player who has.

00:14:49:15 - 00:15:07:12
Speaker 3
Like, you know, a plus like five ape and is like, seven feet tall, who actually was good at climbing. Like, you just be, like, on the first move and then like, reach your hand to like the top and mantle over me. Pretty wild, you know? Who knows? Maybe we'll start seeing that as there's more financial incentives in climbing.

00:15:07:14 - 00:15:08:20
Speaker 4
They got to be out there.

00:15:08:22 - 00:15:25:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that there's like a limit, though. I think bouldering especially like, is it if you're super I mean, I could be completely speaking out of turn here. But my understanding is that if you're like really tall and like really long arms, you know, bouldering as a sport can be kind of harder for you because there's a lot of like these really tight tension move.

00:15:25:22 - 00:15:31:02
Speaker 1
You got to compress and like maybe your size might be a disadvantage. What do you what do you think about that?

00:15:31:02 - 00:15:55:17
Speaker 4
BRENNAN Yeah, for sure. Height matters. I'm sure people can do really well. Tall people can do a really well, but the average person can do the best in my books, I would say. So I don't know what I think. Most pro climbers are like five, six, two, five, eight. And with a plus two or plus three into shape and X and yeah, so I'm okay with being 510 ish and yeah.

00:15:55:19 - 00:15:57:17
Speaker 1
You're okay. You've been part of the majority.

00:15:57:19 - 00:16:01:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.

00:16:01:22 - 00:16:22:08
Speaker 1
Uh, yeah. So I mean, circling back here, you started route setting. I know you kind of it seems like you got really into it. Maybe talk to us a little bit about kind of the, I don't know, the politics or the the ecosystem of route setting and kind of like how if someone was interested in kind of pursuing that path, what that would look like and what your experience was.

00:16:22:10 - 00:16:43:17
Speaker 4
Sure. Route setting for me is always just a way to express yourself with climbing holds. You know, you there's a blank canvas in front of you and you got this pile of holds and you're going to make something out of nothing and for other people to enjoy. And I really enjoyed that process from the first time I did it.

00:16:43:17 - 00:17:02:21
Speaker 4
And learning how to do it was also really fun. And so I started at that climbing gym and I had this brilliant idea for this amazing boulder problem that I wanted to set in this particular corner. And I went to my boss and was like, Hey, can I please, you know, can I can I set something there? And sure enough.

00:17:02:21 - 00:17:34:18
Speaker 4
And so that led into just this love for setting and I would set for, you know, free climbing. Oh, I guess I work there. So it wasn't really that. And that turned into, you know, I went, I, I didn't work at that gym for super long. I actually don't even remember how long, but it ended up, you know, taking my career path outside of climbing to being a term carpenter like an apprentice from Carpenter.

00:17:34:20 - 00:18:04:03
Speaker 4
And I, I got an offer from a good friend to be the head setter of a climbing gym that was going to open up in our town. And I believed in what he was doing. So I you know, I took the took the job. And that's a you know, that's a huge long story in itself of. Mm. I actually was a big, big part in building the gym and producing the climbing walls.

00:18:04:03 - 00:18:29:10
Speaker 4
And then once the gym opened I became head setter of the gym and we treated it very much like a commercial gym. So, you know, as head setter, you know, my job was to put the holes on the wall week in and week out. And, you know, we had a four week turnover and it was an awesome job.

00:18:29:12 - 00:18:42:20
Speaker 4
You know, I really loved doing it. So that didn't last, obviously. Well, not obviously, no one knows me on this podcast, but that didn't last. And now I'm back to owning my own business and being a Trump carpenter.

00:18:42:20 - 00:18:57:21
Speaker 1
So nice. Like in terms of the like progress for people, like isn't there like different levels of, of accreditation you can get and what is the accrediting body and like, what kind of, what does that ecosystem look like?

00:18:57:23 - 00:19:27:23
Speaker 4
Yeah, so I I'm a level one USDA certified setter that's through USA climbing. And that came around because my boss at the time wanted to have me and the other setter go get this certificate for level one setting. And so, so we traveled down to Florida, actually for the clinic and took the clinic. And, you know, I don't want to speak badly about USA climbing.

00:19:27:23 - 00:19:53:04
Speaker 4
You know, they do a lot for our sport and stuff like that. But I can say that if you have been a setter for a while, regardless, you're probably not going to learn much. At least in the clinic that I went to. Now I really enjoyed the people that were teaching the class and it wasn't necessarily bad, but it didn't come away with anything that I didn't already know.

00:19:53:05 - 00:20:14:06
Speaker 4
It seemed like. And again, I'm kind of bashing, but it seemed like the it there was some people there that shouldn't have been there. Right. And so where you really get into the more experience setting is the higher level two and upwards. And I never made it that far. So yeah.

00:20:14:08 - 00:20:29:04
Speaker 1
I think that's pretty standard with like a lot of accreditation processes. Like I was a CrossFit coach for a while and it's like the same thing, you know, if you know how to do the movements, for the most part, you show up to CrossFit level one and it's like you're kind of looking around. You're just like, What am I doing here?

00:20:29:06 - 00:20:42:23
Speaker 1
You know, I already know all this stuff. It's just like a box you have to check to be legally certified, you know, through the accreditation process. It's a money grab. And so I get it. It's kind of like it's everywhere in the world of fitness and I'm sure other places as well.

00:20:43:01 - 00:20:54:03
Speaker 3
I think just in general, just going through a certification process is now like the more red tape and bureaucracy is there. There's obviously some pros and cons, but definitely one of the causes you put your your.

00:20:54:03 - 00:20:56:14
Speaker 1
Cash funnel out there to try to catch people's money.

00:20:56:17 - 00:20:58:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think.

00:20:58:08 - 00:21:21:17
Speaker 4
I think the setting industry in general, it's it's really good but it's really hard to get into like in your local gym you all start setting it's it's extremely difficult to do so nowadays. You know before it was like, hey, can I set for a free membership? Now it's like you kind of got to know people. It seems like where I feel like people could branch out a little bit more.

00:21:21:17 - 00:21:45:12
Speaker 4
I happen to. I still love setting even though I don't do it anymore and I happen to be a maybe, maybe, maybe not well known Sutter on the Kelsey board as well. So like there is other avenues that you could take, I guess, in terms of like trying to get experience without being allowed to set like commercial gyms.

00:21:45:14 - 00:21:55:10
Speaker 1
Or you can go find a new area in another country and develop an entire entire platform for people to to enjoy.

00:21:55:12 - 00:22:00:03
Speaker 4
That's that's very true.

00:22:00:05 - 00:22:01:14
Speaker 2
So.

00:22:01:16 - 00:22:06:14
Speaker 4
Yeah. Is are we there already the my favorite topic in the world.

00:22:06:17 - 00:22:07:14
Speaker 1
Yeah that's a.

00:22:07:16 - 00:22:08:12
Speaker 3
Pretty good segway.

00:22:08:12 - 00:22:11:17
Speaker 2
Right? Yeah.

00:22:11:19 - 00:22:17:00
Speaker 3
It's like bureaucracy beat him down. He's found another solution here.

00:22:17:01 - 00:22:17:15
Speaker 2
That is.

00:22:17:15 - 00:22:20:13
Speaker 1
That is there are yeah there are other options.

00:22:20:15 - 00:22:34:20
Speaker 4
That is very true that I you know I probably am not the most, uh social person you'll ever meet. And so I think my places in the woods alone.

00:22:34:21 - 00:22:37:12
Speaker 2
He's pursuing.

00:22:37:14 - 00:22:39:05
Speaker 4
Pursuing development. So.

00:22:39:07 - 00:22:40:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's awesome.

00:22:40:11 - 00:22:57:10
Speaker 3
And yeah, so that's obviously kind of like the meat and potato of, you know, what the conversation we want to have today is, you know, this, this area that you've been putting your your heart and soul into. And why don't you, you know, take it away. Explain like what? What is this project? And yeah, let's hear about it.

00:22:57:12 - 00:23:18:18
Speaker 4
So it really is a project, as you said, I look at it that way. At least it's it's a place that's some of the closest rock to me in Michigan. It's about six and a half hours away. Six If you drive a little fast, that might seem like a huge distance to most people. But for us in Michigan, that's about as good as it gets.

00:23:18:22 - 00:23:47:15
Speaker 4
And you know, it it started off what I'm trying to talk about is I'm a developer and I developed the Nooks, which is in Ontario, Canada, and I'm from Michigan. So I travel across international borders to develop boulders in the middle of nowhere. And I love it. And it's a ride on how we got to this point. It all started back in 2018.

00:23:47:17 - 00:24:24:23
Speaker 4
I had two buddies go north of the Mackinaw Bridge into Canada to do some easy transport lines just north of Saint Marie, Michigan, called Batu on a bay. They came back. They told me about all the rock that was present in Ontario at the same time, one of those two guys sent me a video called Project Crown Land, and it's about this guy and a vast amount of climbers that have been developing this crag in northern Ontario called the Eyeball and in Project Crown Land.

00:24:24:23 - 00:24:52:18
Speaker 4
It features the kind of the head developer of the whole cliff line, Gus Alexander Poulos, and he speaks in the film about how much rock is up there. And like, it's it's kind of an adventure to get there and it's this huge, like 300 foot multi pitch, three mile long cliff. I mean, it's ginormous. And so the drone shots of it showed all these boulders at the bottom.

00:24:52:20 - 00:25:15:20
Speaker 4
And I watched that and I immediately messaged him and I said, Hey, when are you going up? I don't care about your walls. I care about the boulders at the bottom. I'm not a developer, but I love climbing. And that's close and that looks incredible. Like I want to come, come see. And he said, I'll be there next week.

00:25:15:21 - 00:25:43:00
Speaker 4
And I said, I'll, I'll see you there. So I took two days off of work. I traveled up to meet this random guy in the middle of the woods. No cell service, you know, a hand-written directions, just in case that my G.P.S., like, didn't work. Like, ten miles down this crappy dirt road to meet this guy. And I got there and I hiked the cliff, and I found Boulder after Bolt, like, just like, so many boulders along this cliff.

00:25:43:00 - 00:26:07:06
Speaker 4
And I was just astonished because the rock looked good. I knew it. Rock good rock looked like. Like I've been climbing for I'd been climbing for like seven or eight years at that point and to quite a few places around the country. And the Rock, what amazing. The boulders were really tall and I was just astounded. And I left with the thought that, like, I'm coming back to climb some of these.

00:26:07:06 - 00:26:36:15
Speaker 4
Well, actually, actually, I did. I actually think I did like six or seven first ascents that that two day trip. And I left. I went home and I immediately got on my computer, satellite maps, topographical maps, like and well, the reason I did that, the reason I, you know, started to really search for them, you know, through satellite maps is because I didn't like the access to to the place that they were climbing at four one.

00:26:36:15 - 00:26:58:07
Speaker 4
It's a ten mile stretch of like dirt road and it's like really crappy. And like the last hill to get down the cliff was like, terrible. And then at the beginning in that ten miles is a farmer's field with a gate and he is a Seventh Day Adventist and he calls his gate Friday night and doesn't open it up till Saturday night or Sunday morning, I believe.

00:26:58:09 - 00:27:36:20
Speaker 4
So if you want to go climbing there, you have to get in before he closes the gate. And I didn't like that access. So, you know, I went home, started perusing on the computer, like if this three mile long, huge cliff is here, then there must be more. And sure enough, you know, I started a search and search and search and and just seeing rocks and that's where the other two bodies kind of come back into the fold, where we all picked out a few destinations where we saw, okay, well, where we can see rock, it's kind of gray.

00:27:36:20 - 00:27:59:11
Speaker 4
The satellite maps are crappy, but we can see the topographical maps is really steep right here. Like we should go search. And so we did. We took, I believe, our first time back up. There was snowshoeing in the middle of winter. So we went up there. You know, it's Canada. You guys are used to snow sync, right?

00:27:59:13 - 00:28:01:12
Speaker 2
Right. Yeah. Yeah, pretty used to.

00:28:01:12 - 00:28:06:02
Speaker 3
It depends where you are, though. Yeah. There's some places where not much.

00:28:06:04 - 00:28:36:07
Speaker 4
Yeah. So? So, yeah, we went up there with snowshoes. We hiked around, you know, pretty heinous type to fun and ended up finding a roadside boulder field like right off the road after, like, striking out at a few places that we had in mind. And then we we stumbled upon what is currently or one of the zones at the Nlc's called Gold Mine, the only part of gold mine.

00:28:36:07 - 00:28:56:23
Speaker 4
We didn't we didn't actually find like the whole thing and we were stoked and so we couldn't wait to get back there. And so springtime comes. We like go up. We still like, like no one's having grand plans of like, let's create a climbing area and like, get people to come up and do this. We were just like, Let's go have some fun on these rocks.

00:28:56:23 - 00:29:28:10
Speaker 4
And that's like a different type of trip than going to Chattanooga and going bouldering. And we did that. And so we were just having fun climbing on these rocks and we ended up walking a little ways further into the woods and we just stumbled upon the gold mine of Boulder fields like we couldn't believe it. If anybody is listening has been down south and you've been to Little Rock City or Stone four, as it's called.

00:29:28:12 - 00:29:41:05
Speaker 4
You know exactly what I'm talking about. Boulders that are close together, but they're not Talus feel right, Like you're walking through a city of rocks. And that's the start of this whole project.

00:29:41:07 - 00:29:43:11
Speaker 2
Wow. Wow.

00:29:43:13 - 00:30:13:09
Speaker 1
I mean, the six I think the biggest thing to drive home here is the six hour drive to get to this place, to a place that you don't know. You don't even know if there's roots there. You know, you're you're just inspired by satellite images and you're checking this place out and you stumble upon this Mecca. It's just like such a crazy story and such a dedicated kind of person to want to have to search that out when you could go, you know, another direction and head towards a world class climbing like it's it's an interesting story for sure.

00:30:13:11 - 00:30:15:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, I how it's crazy.

00:30:15:22 - 00:30:22:13
Speaker 3
I'm just wondering, so what year did you kind of start your discovery in going up there?

00:30:22:15 - 00:30:26:06
Speaker 4
That was 2008. We started to.

00:30:26:08 - 00:30:26:11
Speaker 3
Shift.

00:30:26:14 - 00:30:27:20
Speaker 1
We started in eight or so.

00:30:27:20 - 00:31:02:00
Speaker 4
2018. Okay, Developing in 2019. Yeah. So it's been this is year five of development. We are 201 and 230 problems. And with just an endless amount like that, the gold mine part that I'm talking about, like that's not tapped out yet And then additionally to that 30 seconds down the road is another whole zone. 2 minutes further is another whole zone.

00:31:02:02 - 00:31:07:06
Speaker 4
Wow. That's like completely unexplored. We're talking thousands, thousands of boulder problems.

00:31:07:06 - 00:31:23:15
Speaker 3
So just just for people who are listening, what's the density when you're saying 2 minutes down the road? So like, let's say we're taking like, you know, a five kilometer, maybe three mile grid or something, You're saying there's like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of problems in that little block area, right?

00:31:23:17 - 00:31:48:20
Speaker 4
Yeah, right. So gold mine is a two minute walk into the woods and you're standing in a field or a forest full of boulders that you can like. If you had a rock, a handful of rocks, you could be hitting ten, 15 boulders, you know, any way you turn right. So it's super dense. You know, 30 seconds down the road is just the parking lot to the next area you walk.

00:31:48:20 - 00:32:09:04
Speaker 4
That area happens to be further into the woods. It happens to be about a 15 minute hike. Right. But there you are also in a city of rocks, right? So the density up there is crazy. And then the other spot down the road, like I think I have, I've five zones going right now. Okay. Or at least like in my head, like I want to climb there.

00:32:09:06 - 00:32:34:15
Speaker 4
Yeah. And they are like all super dense. So you're not, you're not walking far. Like, for example, the, the three, the big three, as I call them, of the first sense that I've done there's two V twelves and a B 13. If you stand on a boulder, you can turn around and you can see each one, it's like boom, there's one, there's one, there's, there's the other.

00:32:34:17 - 00:32:36:17
Speaker 4
Like they're all super close. Wow.

00:32:36:19 - 00:32:39:20
Speaker 3
Wow. And so it's like pretty good quality.

00:32:39:22 - 00:32:50:07
Speaker 1
Yes. Yes. Is there a cliff band near that? The rocks came from like, does it like geographically or geologically? How do you see that the rocks got there?

00:32:50:09 - 00:33:10:00
Speaker 4
Yeah. So there is glacial, glacial boulders present in the woods, too. So. So random boulders that you're going to find. There is actually a section of forest up there that also that has just like there is no cliff cliffs present and there's just the woods is just full of boulders. They just happen to be a little bit smaller.

00:33:10:00 - 00:33:31:07
Speaker 4
So so you get the glacial I'm forgetting the name of what glacial boulders are called erratic You have there erratic boulders. But at the same time, the vast majority do come from cliffs. So we are climbing under cliffs. They just like they're not always present and they're are not always impressive. But the boulders are are extremely impressive. So.

00:33:31:09 - 00:33:33:10
Speaker 1
And what kind of rock? Okay.

00:33:33:12 - 00:34:09:01
Speaker 4
It's, it's quartz. I it's a white so it's a form of quartz. I but it has like this really fine grained texture to it. Kind of like, like granite would have some spikes and knobs and you know, that, that granite and then, but it's, it's also conglomerate so it's also got pebbles in it which sounds really bad. But if you look on my Instagram or anything like that, you're going to see these crazy, crazy streaks in the rock that come like horizontal or whatever way the boulder fell.

00:34:09:03 - 00:34:33:10
Speaker 4
And it's all pebbles in those streaks and on both sides of the streaks. Pure core site rock and the the streaks, they're not like, you can't put your hand on the streak and like grab a pebble. They're flush with the rock. So it's basically just like a beauty mark. So it's crazy good rock with this weird streak. And then again, crazy good rock beyond that.

00:34:33:12 - 00:34:45:23
Speaker 3
Yeah, really, really cool. I've definitely saw that video of developing the nukes with you in it and stuff, and the rock quality looks amazing. The area looks really beautiful. Do you know if it's on Crown land?

00:34:46:01 - 00:35:09:20
Speaker 4
Yes. Yes, it is on Crown land. So technically, the main area, gold mine. You are walking a trail that is through the Little White River Provincial park. But not the actual park, I guess technically, yes, it is the actual park, but there's a little White River provincial park and then the little white river that flows out of it.

00:35:09:20 - 00:35:33:07
Speaker 4
And on each side of the river, there's a certain boundary limit of like 300 feet or something. That is park property, you would say. But right beyond that is where the boulders start. So it's actually we should be free and clear from, you know, any shutdowns I hope can it is on ground.

00:35:33:07 - 00:35:42:15
Speaker 3
Then and you can also just go camp in the area and. Right. It's like just yes, go there. You can camp, have your weekends there. Yeah. That's really awesome.

00:35:42:16 - 00:35:59:04
Speaker 4
Yeah. Crown Land is is just like a great resource. Now if you're from the if you're from the States, you have to get a general general use permit to camp there. It's like five bucks or something. Not a big deal but so that's just a warning to any Americans that would ever go.

00:35:59:06 - 00:36:00:08
Speaker 3
Yeah, sweet.

00:36:00:10 - 00:36:01:17
Speaker 1
I've been forewarned.

00:36:01:19 - 00:36:31:05
Speaker 3
So, you know, like when I'm thinking of someone who is going up there developing this area, they're looking in it. So, you know, developing. Obviously, you've got ladders and wire brushes, you're cleaning things, You're you're climbing problems. You know, considerations that I'm thinking of is like like even just skin. You know, if you're trying to climb as many problems as you can in a weekend and you're driving along way, you know, you have a limited amount of skin to do that or even like creating as well.

00:36:31:07 - 00:36:45:03
Speaker 3
Do you have some do you try and get multiple people to try and climb a problem? Or do you feel from your experience as a border or and as a route setter that you do have generally a good idea of what a grade is?

00:36:45:05 - 00:37:18:17
Speaker 4
Oh man, there is a lot in that question that I would that I could talk about. But in terms of the grading, it is extremely difficult to do that. After all the cleaning, you know, after getting all the stuff off the rocks sometimes, sometimes the rock is pretty clean straight off the bat, but sometimes it's pretty dirty. And so after all the hard work of the actual development, climbing a boulder, you get done and you're like, Man, I don't know how tired I was when I started that because I was so stoked to actually climate after all of that work.

00:37:18:19 - 00:37:29:06
Speaker 4
I don't know, I'm going to throw v6 at this thing and hopefully it sticks, you know? So it is a shot in the dark for sure.

00:37:29:08 - 00:37:56:14
Speaker 1
In terms of like. So these areas are undeveloped. So how overgrown are these areas? Like are this there a bunch of like forest floor bushes and poison ivy and thorns? You know, like how how inhabitable is this area or did you walk into it and it's just like beautiful and there's like soft dirt and no rocks in the landing area, Like how I paint the picture for kind of like what it looked like when you showed up.

00:37:56:16 - 00:38:40:05
Speaker 4
Well, it's the Canadian wilderness. It's dense, it's tough. But around the boulders, there's so much rock even underneath the boulders. I'm not saying it's a talus field or anything like that, but there's there's only so much dirt above where all of this rock just fell off the cliff that like, it's not terrible, but it's definitely like we had to be, you know, pretty conscious of like what we're doing and how we were developing this, you know, crown land property that's not ours and how we can both create a good experience for other people, as well as preserving the land in a way that still kind of looks wild.

00:38:40:05 - 00:39:02:16
Speaker 4
But, you know, you can tell that it's used in actually a random tangent to that. The local town, Elliot Lake, they have kind of picked up on this whole climbing thing and there's no climbers in the lake, but people use the trail nowadays for hiking. So now it's like an actual trail like so yeah.

00:39:02:18 - 00:39:12:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. So you guys were making the trail, right? Did you guys was it all just like, trample? Did you guys use shears like where you cut and cut in your trail? And what did that look like?

00:39:12:03 - 00:39:19:06
Speaker 4
There was no like, cutting down of major trees, but there's certainly like, trimming of branches and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah.

00:39:19:08 - 00:39:25:08
Speaker 1
And it's nice because you said it was pretty close to the road, so it's not like this five mile approach that you had to trail out or anything like that.

00:39:25:09 - 00:39:27:19
Speaker 4
No, no, certainly not.

00:39:27:20 - 00:39:44:13
Speaker 1
And then for the routes themselves, you said some of them required cleaning, like I'm thinking like a dense forest and like moss covered rocks, like, you know, you the climbing season for this area is how long like, do you have like a three month window, a four month window. What's your window for the season? There?

00:39:44:15 - 00:39:55:02
Speaker 4
So the fall season's the best season and we're coming up upon it. It's going to be August through October typically. So yeah, about four months. Yeah.

00:39:55:04 - 00:39:57:13
Speaker 1
Okay. And then in the spring time again or no.

00:39:57:15 - 00:40:09:17
Speaker 4
Yes, straight into spring up until and uh, yeah, June So really it's like only the winter and then June and July that I avoid maybe the start of August I'm not too keen on.

00:40:09:17 - 00:40:20:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to lead to is like are you battling the forest? Like as the forest reclaiming the boulders as, like while you're gone or do they stay pretty much untouched?

00:40:20:17 - 00:40:59:09
Speaker 4
They do the boulders themselves remain like all the, the, you know, the moss and lichen that could have been on a boulder remains untouched and preserved for climbing, which is, I guess, a good thing in a way that we're not like re destroying things. But excuse me, The, uh, the nooks has gotten like quite a bit more traffic, uh, in the recent two years since I put out the guidebook and that has, like, really helped, like, more people climbing equals cleaner rock.

00:40:59:11 - 00:41:08:01
Speaker 1
Right? Yeah. I saw on Mountain Project, it's got 50,000 hits, but yeah, the nooks, the nooks has 50,000 hits. Oh.

00:41:08:02 - 00:41:11:06
Speaker 4
That's crazy. What's going on in my famous.

00:41:11:08 - 00:41:15:21
Speaker 2
You must be. That is so like, cause you don't know that.

00:41:15:23 - 00:41:22:07
Speaker 4
No, I had no idea. I don't. I haven't updated on the project since my the, the, the guidebook came out, so.

00:41:22:09 - 00:41:28:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. Uh, let's see here. Let's. I'm just double checking. Yeah. Page views. 50,715.

00:41:29:01 - 00:41:32:14
Speaker 4
That's got to be bots.

00:41:32:16 - 00:41:32:20
Speaker 2
Is.

00:41:32:20 - 00:41:54:13
Speaker 3
Like a Russian troll farm just targeting you. Okay but so something I'm really curious here. So you said you put out a guidebook. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that process of, you know, in an area with such high density, you know, putting out a guidebook when there's so many unfinished projects around and stuff, maybe you can just take me through that.

00:41:54:13 - 00:42:05:01
Speaker 3
Like, how did you know when to climb enough projects, how to grade things accurately? Like what was that process of like putting that together and getting that to market? Like.

00:42:05:02 - 00:42:31:06
Speaker 4
Right, Well, first I kind of like skipped over part of the grade. Anything where I said it was like kind of you're just too tired and you just throw something at it. That's not exactly true. Like I have been climbing for a long time. I know what avv7 or eight should feel like, right? So like I can accurately hopefully get within a grade of something, but putting out a guidebook that's extremely difficult.

00:42:31:08 - 00:42:52:00
Speaker 4
I was kind of like coerced into doing it. Yes. Gold mine isn't done and the other areas aren't done. But the the guy that Gus Alexandroupolis, the guy that's been developing that huge cliff down the road, he was like, Dude, you should do a guidebook. You should do a guidebook. And he's kind of a legend in the Ontario climbing community.

00:42:52:00 - 00:43:16:00
Speaker 4
So I came into this and like, I got to have one of the coolest mentors ever. And this guy that's been developing for like, I don't I don't even know how long developed all the cliffs around Toronto. Not all like there's plenty of developers and but he was like, You should put out a guidebook. And so like I started to at the end of, uh, two seasons ago, I started like really documenting what we were doing.

00:43:16:00 - 00:43:45:18
Speaker 4
Not that I wasn't anyways, so I was throwing it up on Mountain Project at the same time, but you know, really documenting like start holds and like things are and star ratings and going around the field in my spare time and like drawing maps and you know in a book and trying to figure out that and then taking pictures of all of the boulders for the guidebook and and then comes putting all of that information into a book and never done that before.

00:43:45:20 - 00:44:19:00
Speaker 4
I used an Adobe program and it was extremely difficult. I think I, I spent three or four months all of winter doing it. And it was pretty much every night I would sit down and like attempt to continue it. And I think I did like three versions of the book before this one like panned out. I just like there's a there's actually like a weird difference between route route guidebooks, like so sport climbing and such and bouldering guidebooks.

00:44:19:00 - 00:44:41:09
Speaker 4
I notice that. And maybe this is not true at all, but what I noticed was that the sport guidebooks would have two columns in in the book, and I was trying to follow Gus's format, which his was two columns as well. And I would pick up the Red River Gorge Books and sure enough, two columns. I'm pretty sure hopefully I'm getting this right.

00:44:41:09 - 00:44:59:00
Speaker 4
If not, that's bad. But it just wasn't working with the amount of pictures I had because, you know, there's a lot more. You can't just step back and take a picture of the whole list. You know, like sport climbing. You can take picture the whole cliff. And so I actually had to go to three columns and and that worked a lot better.

00:44:59:02 - 00:45:14:03
Speaker 1
So nice. That's a monumental task. It's good for you. Is it like, how did you market it? How did you get people to be aware of it? Like, what was that side of it like to have you? Do you have a bunch has copies sold? Is it sitting or is it.

00:45:14:05 - 00:45:33:23
Speaker 4
So yeah, I printed a thousand copies and was very scared to do so, not knowing if I was going to sell 100. My goal the first year was to sell a hundred. With Gus's help, it's been put into most maybe 50% of the climbing gyms in Toronto. And so that's like the market that I really want to hit.

00:45:33:23 - 00:46:08:18
Speaker 4
They're also 6 hours away, but they also have their local zones and then they also have to travel. So so, you know, emailing, climbing gyms and the local gyms around here. And then just like kind of what we were talking about pre podcast, kind of about the Instagram thing, I wasn't a big instagrammer like before this, not really caring about what I put out and the cool content, but nowadays I do want to do that and not necessarily for myself but for the Nook's because I want to draw people to the Nook.

00:46:08:18 - 00:46:24:11
Speaker 4
Hey, look at this. Look at what we're doing. Look at these amazing boulders we're climbing. You should come try this. And through that, you know, like gained a lot of followers and like, gained a lot of traction for the guidebook and probably Mountain project at the same time, apparently.

00:46:24:13 - 00:46:41:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. So let's talk about that video you made. It was almost shot like a small documentary style with like interview and it was well orchestrated and put together. Like, did you do you have a friend that was like a filmmaker? Like what was how it was kind of the concept of that. And how long did that project take?

00:46:41:20 - 00:47:17:14
Speaker 4
Yes, that was that was awesome. So you're talking about my one of my best friends in D.J. Viana is Fiona Deejay Baroness is a professional film biographer, videographer and he happens to be a lifelong climber too. And he has been climbing so long that he has started to take his professional job into his passion. And that kind of like coincided with his first trip up the nlc's like, oh man, I could, I really want to like, help expose this area.

00:47:17:16 - 00:47:46:23
Speaker 4
And so with his help, we we kind of have made we've made, I think, three films so far. And the main one I think that you're talking about is the one where there's like actual interviews and talking and such. And that was an idea that was brought to us by a lady from Sudbury, Ontario, actually, they have an outdoor film festival, and it's for both local films and international films.

00:47:46:23 - 00:48:11:08
Speaker 4
And we she actually must have followed me on Instagram because it's, you know, it's a local thing. And she was like, Hey, you guys should do like you should submit a film. So we shot that in, Jeez, I don't know, One day we shoot it all in one trip. I think it was a week long trip that we shot.

00:48:11:10 - 00:48:19:11
Speaker 4
Wait, no, no, no, no. I'm getting the films confused, but I don't. I don't. I don't know how long it took.

00:48:19:13 - 00:48:34:14
Speaker 1
It's all good. Yeah. I mean, it was an impressive thing. I'm actually a film producer as well. I've got a documentary coming up. They're going to be shooting of this young kid doing a project. So I just it was inspiring and really cool to see. And, you know, just curious to see how that all panned out. So I appreciate you sharing that.

00:48:34:16 - 00:48:35:14
Speaker 4
Too. Yeah.

00:48:35:14 - 00:48:49:08
Speaker 3
For anybody listening, the films are really great. I think it's called Developing the Nooks, and then you have a volume too, in it as well. Quick side note, in volume two, you're climbing with Georgia and Alejandro. Do you know them personally?

00:48:49:10 - 00:48:51:15
Speaker 4
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're awesome.

00:48:51:15 - 00:49:07:10
Speaker 3
I don't know them very well. They worked at NBC or one of them did briefly here. And the other, I think Alejandro was a climbing instructor. So I kind of just, you know, in passing, just I've seen him a couple of times and stuff, and he did his apprentice rock guide here. So. But yeah, how, how, how do you know them?

00:49:07:12 - 00:49:36:21
Speaker 4
Oh, my gosh. I mean, I don't know them. Well, now we communicate, you know, just on Instagram, but they just happened to actually Alejandro. That was hilarious. Showed up and was super stoked, you know, pulled up to the know it's Friday night or something. Just get in there. Just like sunset is just happening. I see a van in the parking spot for Gold mine and I get all excited because I'm like, That's a climbers fan.

00:49:37:00 - 00:49:43:02
Speaker 4
Like used, you can tell, you know. And I was like, We got to walk down the trail and see who's here.

00:49:43:04 - 00:49:44:17
Speaker 2
So we walked down the trail.

00:49:44:19 - 00:49:56:22
Speaker 4
It's like dark, and we just run into this guy in the middle of nowhere. And that happened to be Alejandro. And he was like, Yeah, I just I don't know. My friends are coming up tomorrow. I don't even have the guidebook. I know nothing about this place. I just showed up.

00:49:57:00 - 00:50:00:00
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's. That's amazing, man. That's really awesome.

00:50:00:00 - 00:50:01:08
Speaker 2
It's just, it's.

00:50:01:10 - 00:50:18:03
Speaker 3
One of those things where it's such a small world, you know, the climate, TV and everything. It's like I barely know this dude from North Vancouver from a place I worked, and then, you know, he's somehow connected to you, going to this, like, really cool bouldering area in Ontario you've developed just feels like a small world. And it was pretty cool.

00:50:18:03 - 00:50:20:22
Speaker 3
And when I saw them on your video, I was like, Oh, sick. That's really awesome.

00:50:20:22 - 00:50:25:16
Speaker 4
So yeah, that's that's amazing. What? Like, what's what a random thing?

00:50:25:16 - 00:50:47:00
Speaker 3
Yeah, totally. Right. So that's really awesome. So I'm guessing like here, like, like obviously a long term you have a vision for the next year and you know, you've kind of alluded to it a little bit I believe, you know, what what is your vision for it essentially? Like, do we have more? You're going to look at updating more guidebooks as you continue doing essays.

00:50:47:00 - 00:50:56:12
Speaker 3
You're going to continue developing the area, Like, why don't you take us through a little bit of like, what your vision is for the nooks and where you think it's going to go?

00:50:56:14 - 00:51:20:01
Speaker 4
Yeah. So this is what I'm going to pursue probably for the rest of my climbing life. Not completely. I still enjoy going to classic areas, but for the most part I want to. Yeah, I just have such a fun time doing it. Like I love developing. I love the Type two fun. I love the fact that it's like a it's like gambling.

00:51:20:02 - 00:51:39:10
Speaker 4
You go into the woods and you don't know if you're going to find just like a mega line or you're going to find absolutely nothing. And most of the time it's nothing, right? I have all these hopes and dreams of these places like, Oh, there could be boulders here. You know, it doesn't really show a ton of rock, but maybe there is and show up and there's just nothing.

00:51:39:12 - 00:51:57:13
Speaker 4
So, yeah, the future holds a lot more problems. Eventually, the nuts is going to have thousands of all the problems. I can't do them all. That's why I'm like trying to spread the word, like, Please come up, please do. First the sense, Oh, you want to go to a new zone? Like, here you go. But just so you know, it's not like all these rocks are clean.

00:51:57:13 - 00:52:21:05
Speaker 4
It's not like there's a path there. Like, you got to do a bunch of hard work to do this stuff. And. Yeah, so guidebooks and stuff like that, But it actually goes a little bit deeper than that for me. I don't want to say that I do not want this to come across wrong, but I did want to be a professional climber and I never took the chance to go do that.

00:52:21:05 - 00:52:46:09
Speaker 4
I don't know if I could have or what, but I just never took the chance to try and I always wanted to leave. I wanted climbing to mean something to me and or to mean something. Of course, it means a lot to me, but mean something more than just this activity. And I saw professional as kind of the way to that.

00:52:46:14 - 00:53:07:13
Speaker 4
But when I found development, it kind of hit exactly what I was talking about, where I found a way leave a legacy type of thing. So like, this is not only do I love development, but I also found the way that it could mean something to me. And yeah.

00:53:07:15 - 00:53:26:21
Speaker 3
That's really awesome and like super cool. You know, even just recently I've been climbing and trying to pay more attention to guidebooks of like, who has the FAA, who's both this, who put their their time and energy to discover this for the community. It put their money, you know, because it's a lot of work and and of course, it's a two way street.

00:53:26:21 - 00:53:47:08
Speaker 3
It's not just like like the people are doing it as like it's passion, you know, it's a love. It's they're going to do it on some level for themselves. But it's like you're saying, it's also leaving this legacy and giving back to other people. It's like when you die, you know, there's going to be this thing that you've done.

00:53:47:08 - 00:54:24:21
Speaker 3
And even when you're living too, like there's other people going and enjoying this thing that you discovered and that you put time and energy to put together. And there's something. So I don't know, I haven't done it. So I'm speaking out of turn. But that seems like it would just be self-evident that it's very fulfilling, you know, on as an individual to be giving something to people and to the community and to have them share the joy that you experience on that that problem or climbing that there's just something about that that seems so meaningful and at it's at its core just like what I think is like the most special thing about climbing.

00:54:24:23 - 00:54:52:06
Speaker 4
That huge is seeing other people enjoy the hard work through something like this. It's it is so huge, like Instagram posts or mostly personal messages to to me or some of the other developers. I'm not the only developer of this area. I might be the guy that's driving all of this stuff, but there is so many more people than me that are putting in the work that, you know, maybe I, of course, up there.

00:54:52:08 - 00:55:14:21
Speaker 4
But they have also fallen in love with the area and and seeing both those other developers doing it or in TJ's case, like he's taking his time and his profession to come up there and document all of the stuff, like seeing the hard work from everybody and then seeing individuals go up and enjoy it is just like incredible.

00:55:14:22 - 00:55:20:22
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's awesome, man. Good for you. I genuinely mean it. It's really awesome.

00:55:20:22 - 00:55:41:05
Speaker 4
Yeah, it's it. It's crazy. I didn't see my life go in this direction at all. Like I. You know, I always dreamed of like, you know, you're walking through the woods to this, climbing that's, you know, well known, like Rock Town or Chattanooga or, you know, anywhere famous. And you're like, Wow, man, it'd be really cool to, like, put up for sense, like, what would it be like to find something like this?

00:55:41:08 - 00:55:44:18
Speaker 4
And then it actually happened, You know? That's crazy.

00:55:44:20 - 00:56:17:09
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's really awesome. I have this, this vision in my head that I really want to find something just really cool, like five, eight, five, nine Alpine route and just, like, you know, get an F on it and maybe bolts and blade stations and stuff, like, it's a long term project. I've never developed anything. I'm not really putting any time and energy into right now, but it's like this thing just lingering in the back of my mind where I'm like just finding a really cool, you know, not the hardest thing, something that lots of people can enjoy.

00:56:17:11 - 00:56:24:14
Speaker 3
I'm like, I'm thinking about it, you know. I'm like, That would be really cool thing to do. So who knows, Maybe it'd take me a couple of years, but it'd be really it's.

00:56:24:15 - 00:56:29:11
Speaker 4
It's fulfilling. You'll, you'll enjoy it. If you love climbing that much. You'll enjoy the process.

00:56:29:11 - 00:56:51:23
Speaker 3
Yeah. I already bought the like, the handrail. Oh, yeah. I don't have, like, the scale. I mean, I could place expansion boards and stuff. I really do. So but yeah, it's, it's there. It's lingering in the back of my mind, right? It's just something that I kind of want to do. It seems like this interesting progression to just go and try and do something that potentially nobody else has done, you know, and not from a difficulty standpoint.

00:56:51:23 - 00:57:01:07
Speaker 3
Just like, yeah, that's just like this, like essence of like pure discovery, you know, it's there's something really cool about it.

00:57:01:09 - 00:57:04:09
Speaker 4
There's, there's a rush to it for sure.

00:57:04:11 - 00:57:22:15
Speaker 1
The only experience I've had was out in Albania. We were teaming up with the climbing gym out there, and they were bolting like all the routes near the city. And I was able to hop on a rope and like, set up like this five bolt. I think it was like a59 plus maybe. Yeah, that's just like, you know, super simple.

00:57:22:15 - 00:57:41:18
Speaker 1
But just the, like you said, the essence of it and putting your name on there and just like every time someone climbs that route, it was your effort and it's just like, that's something you created. It's a form of art. So it's, it's really cool, really awesome that you found such a mecca of opportunity for not only yourself, but for everybody else to have that experience as well.

00:57:41:20 - 00:57:45:06
Speaker 1
You're like the the god of the of the nooks.

00:57:45:08 - 00:57:47:07
Speaker 2
Of I.

00:57:47:07 - 00:57:51:04
Speaker 4
Guess I'm just the guy that's just the most addicted to it.

00:57:51:06 - 00:57:51:19
Speaker 2
Because I.

00:57:51:19 - 00:58:04:06
Speaker 4
Did that. Yeah, I, I, I would always kind of feel bad about talking about myself, but like, there is so many good people that are developing the nooks right now. Like, just it's amazing.

00:58:04:06 - 00:58:31:01
Speaker 1
So how do you how do you see like, I mean, 50,000 hits on Mountain Project, You know, like there's a chance this thing could go viral or, you know, like, do you see any sort of issues with large amounts of traffic, maybe city slickers, vandalism, as you know, like the town itself? Like what kind of issues do you see with large amounts of traffic to this area?

00:58:31:03 - 00:59:12:17
Speaker 4
Well, that actually brings up a couple good points off of that. So the the Nexus located 30 minutes north, a a city called Eliot Lake. And it has a hospital and it has all your normal amenities. But it is quite a small city. It's it's really the town and the economic benefits that climbing could potentially bring to an area like that is is one of it's something that I've grown into like kind of like the secondary passion of like not only do I care about developing this climbing area, I really care about this town that we're starting to spend money in.

00:59:12:19 - 00:59:45:20
Speaker 4
People are starting to stay there in the hotels and eat out and like just all the stuff. And and then the town kind of hears about it and I think it would be really good to have it blow up. I don't see a huge problem with it. So there's a lot to break down in that question because the OIC, which is the Ontario Alliance of Climbers, they are a volunteer organization that, you know, deals with climbing access in Ontario and they are doing some pretty rad shutdowns.

00:59:45:21 - 01:00:10:00
Speaker 4
Maybe you've seen it, maybe you, maybe you haven't. But it's been all over social media. And the stuff that they really care about is there's a I guess there's a huge standard. But is climbing in Ontario parks and the Parks Department has like pretty much completely shut down climbing and a lot of the climbing areas that they have.

01:00:10:02 - 01:00:32:16
Speaker 4
And so they're trying to fight back against this because it's just wrong to shut down a user group like that. And could that happen to the Nicks if it blew up in like you're saying? I don't know, because it's on Crown land, you know, can you do whatever you want on Crown land? I think so. I don't know.

01:00:32:16 - 01:00:34:10
Speaker 1
Pretty close.

01:00:34:12 - 01:00:40:19
Speaker 2
So it's like Crown Land is, it's like.

01:00:40:21 - 01:00:44:10
Speaker 1
It's crown land like the equivalent to BLM and America.

01:00:44:12 - 01:00:45:22
Speaker 2
I think so, yeah.

01:00:46:00 - 01:00:48:14
Speaker 3
Barrel land management will just clarify that.

01:00:48:14 - 01:00:50:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly.

01:00:50:11 - 01:00:53:06
Speaker 2
They.

01:00:53:08 - 01:01:10:14
Speaker 3
Yeah, Yeah, I believe so. I think I could be wrong here, but I think it's essentially like, like land owned by the federal government that isn't being developed or anything that like gotcha people have a right to be on it to do and you can hunt down crown land, you can do lots of stuff.

01:01:10:16 - 01:01:11:18
Speaker 1
Okay.

01:01:11:20 - 01:01:13:13
Speaker 4
So I don't think. Yeah, go ahead.

01:01:13:13 - 01:01:33:07
Speaker 1
I guess to, to progress this a little bit to your audience and people that would be coming to this area. What kind of things would you promote to do if you started to see larger traffic? Like are there specific or obviously, you know, leave no trace as a huge ethic to promote. That's kind of a given in the climbing community.

01:01:33:07 - 01:01:44:08
Speaker 1
But specifically to this area, like are there certain rules or kind of like ethics that kind of have started to develop in this area that you'd like to see continue on as this place grows?

01:01:44:09 - 01:02:15:23
Speaker 4
Yeah, Yeah, for sure. Keeping the climbing areas as natural as possible would would be one. No fires at at the boulders. No camping at the boulders either. There is you're 30 minutes from nowhere and you can find a camping spot somewhere else. And along with that, like always follow like fire bands. And then, like you said, leave no trace.

01:02:16:01 - 01:02:42:12
Speaker 4
It's a natural spot. It's beautiful. You know, It's it's you know, the Canadian Forces got this magic to it up there. And to keep that fresh, to keep that like it is, you know, try experiencing nature without music, without headphones, you know, keep it down. Just enjoy the the sound of nothing, you know, There is nothing up there.

01:02:42:12 - 01:03:07:00
Speaker 4
You might hear depending on the day, you might hear ten cars, you might hear none. You know, like for real, none. And all you hear is the wind. And it's incredible experience. And I just encourage people to do that more because that's one of the things I love most about it. No cell service. You can get it 5 minutes down the road, but at the boulders, there's nothing.

01:03:07:02 - 01:03:18:01
Speaker 1
Sounds magical. I feel like we're, uh. I don't know. I don't have much more to. To cover. Do you feel like we're missing anything, Brendan? Um.

01:03:18:03 - 01:03:21:14
Speaker 4
You know, if this. Is this my closing statement?

01:03:21:16 - 01:03:26:18
Speaker 1
No, it doesn't have to be. I'm just making sure we're clear before we start headed that direction.

01:03:26:20 - 01:03:54:11
Speaker 4
You know, maybe I'll just say, like, about the whole climbing access in Ontario. So, like, if you feel the need the I don't have the website off the top of my brain, but the OAC has set up a website where you can write letters to the government to try to get climbing access back in these parks. And that's like a huge thing to allow climbing in Ontario parts because it is just being bombarded right now and it's a it's a huge issue.

01:03:54:12 - 01:03:58:20
Speaker 4
So I just say that while I got the clap platform.

01:03:58:22 - 01:03:59:12
Speaker 3
Yes, the.

01:03:59:13 - 01:04:00:11
Speaker 1
OAC.

01:04:00:12 - 01:04:19:11
Speaker 3
We can we can put we can put some links for people as well and stuff in the in the video description and everything. Yeah. I mean in general I just don't get that. I don't get that stuff. I think just as a society we should be doing absolutely everything to promote people, exercising, being healthy, getting out into the outdoors.

01:04:19:11 - 01:04:36:17
Speaker 3
I just think whatever we can do to support that, of course, if there's issues with erosion or land management, you know, let's work to figure that out. By shutting climbers out of areas that just does. That seems like a really poor solution to me. And, you know, as someone who likes climbing things, I think that's a dumb idea.

01:04:36:17 - 01:04:37:20
Speaker 3
So.

01:04:37:22 - 01:04:40:06
Speaker 4
Yeah, climbers aren't the problem, you know?

01:04:40:11 - 01:04:43:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think so. That's for sure.

01:04:43:15 - 01:05:07:14
Speaker 1
And it's honestly yeah, it's when places I mean, I'll just use Joshua Tree as an example down here like, you know, it's the city folk that come out there and vandalize the rock, the spray paint, the loud music, the no etiquette. It's just like, you know, clearly have no respect for nature. And it's like that's the issue. If anything, climbers are setting the tone for what everybody else should be doing.

01:05:07:16 - 01:05:37:01
Speaker 4
So, yeah, it's it's incredible. Like, there's a lot of great people up there for sure. But then you see some of the campers or whatever, you know, the the locals that have used this area, you know, for their whole life. It's like their backyard and they treat it kind of poorly. And it's unfortunate. And they of the reason that the whole shutdown is happening, part of the reason, as I understand it, is about like the microorganisms that actually like the microorganisms that grow on the rock.

01:05:37:06 - 01:06:01:23
Speaker 4
And they're concerned about, you know, the moss and lichen and or whatever is living on the rocks. And then if you just knew, like me, who searches these satellites for countless hours on end, you know how much rock is in Ontario? Like we ain't climbing at all. You know, it's impossible. So, like, it it's it's, it's it's ridiculous.

01:06:02:01 - 01:06:21:10
Speaker 3
Yeah, I was that was the first thing I was thinking of. As you're saying this like, just go look at satellite imagery of Canada and the sheer size of the wilderness. And, you know, it's like, of course we want people respecting the environment. But the idea that, you know, climbing is somehow just like, I just I don't buy it.

01:06:21:10 - 01:06:32:01
Speaker 3
There's so much land like the Canadian, like 99% of Canada is just pure open on adulthood, wilderness. You know, it's literally like all what Canada is.

01:06:32:01 - 01:06:35:22
Speaker 1
So, Max, are there are there rednecks in Canada?

01:06:36:00 - 01:06:43:00
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, of course, man. You know, everywhere, like anywhere has that. You can have a Bible belt in places like that.

01:06:43:02 - 01:06:44:07
Speaker 1
But that's okay.

01:06:44:12 - 01:07:02:20
Speaker 3
You know, I don't like, I don't like, discriminate. Like, I think there's, you know, like more like rowdy, rough, you know, like Albertan people and stuff. Like, I don't I don't have any issues, obviously. I've issues just in general. What if you're a dick, you know, whether you're a city person or you're a redneck or anything, Does it matter if you're just a dick?

01:07:02:20 - 01:07:04:03
Speaker 3
You don't do that.

01:07:04:03 - 01:07:12:14
Speaker 1
That's lame. Obviously, I'm not trying to, like talk down to a group of people. I'm more just interested in like, yeah, you know, like are there are forced people and rednecks in.

01:07:12:17 - 01:07:21:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan think like like Texas Nevada, you know Idaho you know that's like that's what you're thinking.

01:07:21:05 - 01:07:22:01
Speaker 1
That's what I got to go.

01:07:22:01 - 01:07:36:11
Speaker 3
Got you know what I mean? It's like the Midwest kind of way, more ranching, super flat, big rigs off road and, you know, cattle, all that kind of awesome stuff. Yeah. STAM Nice. The Calgary Stampede. Yeah.

01:07:36:13 - 01:07:38:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

01:07:38:07 - 01:07:56:01
Speaker 3
Well, I think I think that's a pretty good place to wrap it up. We're talking about protecting the environment, getting climbing, going the nooks, the, you know, the beauty of the Canadian wilderness, you know. So I think I think for me, like, unless you have any other parting statements. Brennan, I just want to say thanks so much for coming on the show.

01:07:56:03 - 01:08:06:15
Speaker 3
And maybe if you could quickly just explain, like, where's the best place to get your guidebook if people are interested in climbing up the nooks and want to check out the guidebook?

01:08:06:17 - 01:08:23:01
Speaker 4
Yeah, right on. Yeah. I think that's a good place to to end. If you want to purchase the guidebook, you Know it's not a gigantic book, but it's it's pretty cheap because of that. I think it's like was it in the US? Nine bucks I think.

01:08:23:03 - 01:08:24:03
Speaker 1
Was on the cheap.

01:08:24:05 - 01:08:53:02
Speaker 4
Yes it's a huge it's it's the size for you guys to see but it's it's you can find it on Ontario climbing dot com and just like scroll to the the buy or the the guidebook section there's a there's a bunch of Ontario guidebooks just like this one kind of small format type of thing or just messaged me on Instagram and either or will get to talk to me and then I will mail them out or pick them up.

01:08:53:02 - 01:08:57:13
Speaker 4
If you live in Toronto at your local gym.

01:08:57:15 - 01:09:04:16
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah. Thanks, Karen. I'm on the show, man. It was great talking to you. It's such an inspiring location and I hope I will be able to make it out there one day.

01:09:04:18 - 01:09:13:11
Speaker 4
I hope it blows up to a point where people from the West Coast are coming out. I mean, it'd be cool. We have had a guy from Australia.

01:09:13:13 - 01:09:17:01
Speaker 3
Oh, I'm just saying.

01:09:17:03 - 01:09:18:02
Speaker 2
All right, Awesome. Then.