The Climbing Majority
Most of today’s climbing media is focused on what happens at the edges of the sport involving the most experienced and talented climbers in the world. Your host Kyle Broxterman believes that most of these stories and experiences do not directly relate to the majority of climbers that now exist. Thanks to gyms, the Olympics, and mainstream media coverage a vast growing group of people are now discovering this magical sport. As a part of this group, he is here to give this new Climbing Majority a voice. Tune in as he explores the world of climbing, through the lens of a non-professional.
The Climbing Majority
10 | Words From a Fallen Soloist w/ Josh Ourada
In this episode, Max and Kyle speak with Josh Ourada. A climber who survived a harrowing 175ft fall while free soloing "The Nutcracker" in Yosemite Valley. His story has been covered in Climbing Magazine and talked about across the web, and for good reason. Beyond the miracle of his survival and the details of his accident, Max, Kyle, and Josh dive into the ethics behind free soloing, how media plays a role in our perception of risk, and what life is like on the other side of cheating death.
Links:
Outside Magazine:
https://www.climbing.com/news/climber-survives-150-foot-free-solo-fall
Sweet max, how you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm doing pretty good, man. How are things with you? How's
Speaker 1:It's good, man. How's winter in Canada right now.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, we have this like really good cold spell for quite a while. Um, and that was like super beautiful and great. And then we warmed up and tons and tons of rain is coming. So like all the snow is gone on the lower levels. And then that has, uh, create, did like a really big like, uh, freeze crust up in the Alpine. That's like pretty avalanche prone and stuff. So for skiers. So yeah, it's kinda interesting right now.
Speaker 1:Mm. And good for ice climbing down low though. Yeah,
Speaker 2:No, no. It's not here on the, on the west coast. You need like really, for us, like cold, cold temperatures consistently, otherwise things warm up so fast and you're gotcha. But, but we actually did have, um, for like the kind of CTO sky corridor was some of like the, the best I years, um, in, in recent memory, like I've seen lots of people posting like, like certain roots or like larger fatter than they've been in 10 years. Uh, roots came in like first as descent. So it's pretty interesting. So a bad year to miss I, he is climbing unfortunately, but that that's okay. You
Speaker 1:Know? Yeah. That's one thing I don't like about ice climbing is how fleeting it is and how like you could, you know, with us weekend warriors, we got lives and jobs and podcasts to record. We can't just like sit there and wait for the perfect conditions for ice and just be free that day. You know, it's pretty rough. Yeah. So I do, I do like that about climbing, you know, rocks don't change at least our, our perception of time. So
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. For the most part it's a lot, lot more stable, medium that's
Speaker 1:For sure. Yeah. Speaking of rocks, uh, we're gonna be interviewing Joshua rota today. How do you feel about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm incredibly excited to, you know, have a really good conversation with him and, uh, hear about his story and everything. And I'm also really, really excited for, you know, the, uh, listeners to, to be able to come along on this, uh, this journey with us,
Speaker 1:For sure. Um, yeah, just a little bit of background on kind of, uh, Josh, you know, we're gonna let him do most of the introduction for himself, but, um, you know, he was, um, he, he is a free, he was, was, is we'll see, we'll find out whether it's present or pat, um, a soloist. And, uh, he took a pretty nasty fall on the Nutcracker. It's a 500 foot, five eight on the manure pile. Buttres Yosemite, um, something that he had climbed on rope and free solo before. So, you know, we're gonna dive into his story about his fall, about who he was as a climber before his fall. Um, and his recovery process kind of similar to some of our accidents. Um, but you know, we don't want to dive too much and focus too much onto the accident itself, um, because there's a lot of information already out there on his accident, um, in the form of, uh, forums and, and magazine posts. So we wanna focus this episode mostly on, you know, deeper issues and deeper things in the climbing community that I think this story really highlights. And so, yeah, we're just kind of pretty excited to, to go over this and to dive pretty deep and, uh, to hear Josh's story and what he has to say about these pretty controversial topics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. Lot, lots of exciting things coming today.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Me too. Sweet Josh. How's your day? You're in your morning so far.
Speaker 4:The's just starting. Is
Speaker 1:That the first cup of Joe or the second?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's, it's the first
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 4:I don't have class till night, so I'm not usually up much before this.
Speaker 1:Nice, pretty,
Speaker 2:Pretty slow board.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thanks man. Yeah, I know like, God obviously, like I'm, I'm like progressing a lot and stuff through my injuries, but like, I will like talk to Ray, my girlfriend occasionally and like remark like two months ago and be like, just waking up out bed just the way my life was. So like structured completely different and how things would, you know, affect me. And just my timeframes were completely off. My sleep schedule was completely off just like night and day difference compared to like, you know, a couple months ago or like, well, seven, eight months ago. So
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 4:Um, my first like five or six months, I don't think I got, I don't think I got out of bed before noon unless I had a doctor's appointment. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Fair, fair enough, man. Yeah,
Speaker 1:I think, uh, my, my timeframe was a little bit more condensed, but I definitely went through a period of not leaving the couch with my foot elevated. Just watching game of Thrones.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I smashed out the off like the entire scenes and I've seen it like three times.
Speaker 4:It's like, yeah. Do
Speaker 2:You have any like shows or anything you like crushing Josh?
Speaker 4:Uh, I've seen, it's always sunny or 50 times
Speaker 1:Always a really show like that.
Speaker 4:I think since like I heard I've watched it probably another 10 or 12 times. Wow.
Speaker 2:Crazy. I mean, I think that's good. Like, I feel like it's always, Sunny's kind of in like that realm of the office where it's like, yeah, for at least for me, it's like super lighthearted, really funny kind of after you watch it. Like, I just, like, my Spirit's picked up a little bit, you know, like the, the weight of the world is a little bit left, but
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's always nice to have those shows where you can not even watch it, but you can still watch it in your head just by listening to it. It's really good. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, for our audience, you know, before we jump into your, your accident and kind of what happened, I wanna know a little bit more about you. Um, just kind of as a person and, uh, as climber. So I'll just kind of, um, ask you to kind of introduce yourself kind of, where were you born and raised and, and how did you get into climbing? You know, how old were you and, and that kind of background.
Speaker 4:Uh, alright. Yeah, let's see. I'm 32. I was born and raised in Omaha, Nebraska. Um, probably one of the worst places for climbing in the country. Um, I started climbing when I was in the military, which would've been like 11 years ago And kind once I started, I, and it's consumed my entire life,
Speaker 1:Seems like a pretty related
Speaker 4:Story.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So when you were in the military, where did you start climbing first?
Speaker 4:Uh, I was stationed at camp Pendleton, which is Hey outside of San Diego. So
Speaker 1:No way I lived San Diego for 26 years.
Speaker 4:Uh, mission Gorge was like the first place. Why?
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Kyle you'll know Joshua tree.
Speaker 1:Hell yeah. That's so crazy, dude. We were, we were living in the same city for probably multiple years. That's pretty crazy.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I was, I was there 2010 to 14, so,
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, for sure. I was there. That's crazy. I, we probably like walked past each other on the trail and had no idea.
Speaker 2:I'm sure
Speaker 4:It's a small world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah. Well, uh, I'm actually kind of curious, just like quickly, like, um, you know, what, what made you interested in joining the Marine course?
Speaker 4:Um, let's see, I went to college right outta high school for three semesters where I just drank too much, honestly, uh, drank, drank too much, never went to class. And it turns out that you can't be a good student if you do those two things. Excessively shock. Yeah. So after three semesters, I dropped out just for, I got like, I got caught drinking with least couple times and yeah, I just didn't know what I was doing with my life. So when I dropped out, I had no idea. I just signed up for the military. Um, the army wouldn't take me cause of my criminal record. And then I went into the Marines one day and they had me up in a couple.
Speaker 2:Wow. I love it.
Speaker 4:There wasn't really any thought that went behind. It, it, I just didn't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Hell man. I mean the one good thing about the military, you know, my, my dad was in the military. I almost joined the military, I think three or four times. Um, didn't go in by two times myself and then the third time, uh, I didn't get because of criminal activity. So I'm I'm with you there. Um, but yeah, I mean, one good thing about the military is, you know, it, that that's a big use for it. You know, if you don't really know where you're going, you don't know what you're doing, getting yourself into trouble. It's an awesome outlet to just like plug in and not, you know, get told what to do and like just have some sort of path and direction and cool thing is it's four years, you know, so you can just get in and get out and, and ideally kind of use those experiences for something else afterward.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's a good way to get out your delinquency and get paid for it.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Um, I, I know a lot of people and I have a lot of friends who like, uh, you know, like, um, obviously like the military in Canada is probably different than the military in the states, but I'm sure there's a lot of similarities where, um, people I know have like used the military to get, um, like they'll pay for like your college, your tuition, you know, all these different things. Did you like look down any avenues for that or, no,
Speaker 4:That was a little bit of the reason was just if I didn't like it, then I would get school paid for. But yeah, when I joined, when I joined, I didn't really think of anything other than I need to do something with my life before my dad kicks me outta my house.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Fair enough.
Speaker 1:How long did you end up, uh, staying in the Marine Corps?
Speaker 4:I just, I did four years only. Okay. That was for too many, so,
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you said that, uh, I think we talked before, you said you're working as a, or studying to be a mechanical engineer at this point.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I'm uh,
Speaker 1:You're getting your master's now. I
Speaker 4:Think. Yeah. Automotive engineering.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow. That's sick. Um, and were you, did you start school in the Marines or did you start afterward?
Speaker 4:Uh, I started after. Okay. Got out and went back to school and then got to enjoy getting paid to go to school for four years.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So they paid for your school even after you were out of the military?
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's everyone that does it. You get, they cover 36 months of tuition. Wow. Which ends up being like nine semesters worth.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:It's like just enough to graduate.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:Um, so were you always like mathematically inclined? Um, cause I know you were saying like you had some trouble, you know, throwing high school, a little bit of delinquency and stuff and you know, I, I, uh, I resonate with that, but I am not mathematically inclined. So mechanical engineering would forever be out of the question. So
Speaker 4:Just, yeah, it's, it's the only like school subject I've ever been good at sweet.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Like, so my re so in high school, like my last year when I was a, I was taking like AP calc and some other AP physics and that I never went to class and I was still able to get A's. Yeah. So yeah. That's so I tried, I tried doing that same study tactic of not studying in college. And that's when it, you find out that sometimes college is much harder than high school. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We'll go with the hard mathematically inclined cause yeah, definitely never did AP calc and could not have passed it, even if I went to class every single day. So
Speaker 1:Yeah. I was like, I was mathematically inclined throughout high school, but then once math started going into the theoretical kind of like aspect, I lost it. I was like, can't understand like this further move understanding of like, what's going on. I was like, let me just crunch numbers and formulas, you know,
Speaker 4:I mean, used to in the real world, that's all it is. So yeah. It's like you spend all those years in college learning in theory and then you never use it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, I guess something I'm, I'm pretty curious about actually though is like, so in climbing, there's obviously like a lot of mathematics and physics at play. And then, you know, when I think of the military, I think of like work ethic, worth ethics, structure size, like how do you, how do you feel that like those two things in your life have impacted like your climbing, your physical activity, um, and et cetera?
Speaker 4:Uh, I don't think being an engineer has really changed any of that. Um, being in the Marines definitely has helped me, like, you know, like if it's a big day, I know I have to keep pushing and not stop until I'm at the car. It's just, it's kinda helped me like push through if you're like kinda suffering.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Makes sense.
Speaker 4:And then yeah, I enjoy doing, I enjoy doing really big days and just trying to push yourself, especially alone.
Speaker 1:Well, uh, kind like closer and closer here to your accident, you know, before we jump into that, I'd like to know, just kind of like, if you could describe the climber you were as a whole, the day of the accident. So not like the day, but you know what I'm trying to say, like the, the climber you were in that moment. Um, yeah. Some of those things I wanna know are like, just difficulty. So like, what was your onsite, you know, red point transport, your highest solo level, your relationship with risk and um, yeah, it's just kind of on those topics.
Speaker 4:Uh, let's see. Gradewise I was like a six slash seven Boulder at the time. Um, on sighting up to 11 minus tra red point and plus, uh, I was starting to try, try twelves, but never really made it too far before I got hurt. Um, sport I onsite, I was on sighting, low 12 minus, and then I, I never read pointed anything higher than 12 B, but I also never tried anything harder than that. But I imagine I would've been like five, 12 plus five, 13 minus if I'd ever tried. Um, I had done lurking fear on LCAP and I was kind of getting the point where I was trying to transition into doing bigger stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That was such a few days before your accident, wasn't it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, like days.
Speaker 1:Wow. Yeah. First when I heard lurking fear, I was like, crap, did he free that? Then I saw, I was like, he ate it a little bit. I was like, okay, Jesus crap.
Speaker 2:I'm actually not familiar with the, with the roots. So is it fully, is it fully up L tap? Like how many pitches? What does the green go
Speaker 4:At? It's it's on the Southwest side. It's I think it's, it's only 19 pitch, I think. And they call it it's like five, seven C2 or
Speaker 1:Something.
Speaker 4:Like, I don't know the difference between C1 and C2 really. So it's, it's the easiest route, I think.
Speaker 5:Cool.
Speaker 1:Sweet. Is that a, a single day adventure there?
Speaker 4:Uh, yeah, I mean, we did it in like 20 hours or something. Wow.
Speaker 1:That's sick.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Just at least on that route. It's Hauling's kind of pain in the.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think Hauling's probably a pain in the regardless where you're at.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I've uh, I've never like really done any like roots with like aid climbing or any hauling. I think that's something I'm really interested in doing in the future. Um, I think there's a lot of cool stuff to do with that. And also just like the, the difference of slowly progressing up a wall, um, seems really interesting to me. So I'm, I'm definitely in the future.
Speaker 4:Interesting that, well, I spent like my first eight years climbing, it was pretty much bouldering only. And then I kind of got the trap book and from there just, yeah, I just kind of realized the goals I've wanted to do like years ago that I never thought were possible that now it's like, all right. Cap is I can do within
Speaker 1:Reach.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's cool. Yeah. I mean, I've, I've heard stories like that before of, of boulders who are just spending years and years working on technical proficiencies and climbing really hard and not focusing on the gear at all. And then all of a sudden they're like, all right, let me try tra and then they're just like, once they figure out the gear, they can climb like super for hard, because they've spent eight years working on the movement and then all they gotta do is figure out the safety aspect to it. So it's a pretty cool transition that I've seen some people do.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I kinda wish I would've transitioned when I was at my strongest bouldering, but
Speaker 2:I think a good example of that is, uh, isn't it Kevin JSON, who did the dog with Tommy Caldwell, right. Like Just like super hardcore highball boulderer. And then I think like the story Tommy Codwell tells, like when he reached out, he like set him up with like a hundred pound pack to like hike up to the top of El cap and was just trying to like kind of break him to be like, you know, we'll see like, if this guy's like actually like ready it into doing this stuff. So, yeah. It's pretty interesting story.
Speaker 1:Um, what was your relationship with risk? Um, like would you manage it super efficiently? Um, obviously this is, uh, outside of choosing to solo. Um, just like placing gear. Would you run it out? Did you enjoy being run out? Like what was your relationship with kind of like managing that risk?
Speaker 4:Um, I wouldn't really say I was even a risk taker. I definitely I'm really good at sewing it up when I'm track climbing. As I cl as I'm I rope climb more and I got more comfortable, like I would start, I wouldn't even call it running out. I wouldn't sew it up as much As I, yeah. I was just like, I got more comfortable with the gear more, slightly more comfortable falling, but yeah, for the most part, I'm definitely known to sew it up a lot.
Speaker 1:It's you onsite solo?
Speaker 4:Uh, yeah, a good amount.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Uh, what was your highest solo grade? Um, just in general, whether it's something you'd climb before or something you just approached.
Speaker 4:Uh, I mean, I've done like upper five, 10 sport, like single pitch sport climbs,
Speaker 1:Soloing sport climb. That's sick. Wow.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, I would do that in mission Gorge.
Speaker 1:Okay. That's even sketchy. Or the rock out there is so polished and.
Speaker 6:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like this river rock and it's just notoriously polished cuz all the people from San Diego climb there and you know, people dunno what they're doing. So their feet are blasting off the holds and stuff all the time. And so it's just like, so, so polished. So props to you, man, you need like a badge or something for that.
Speaker 4:I mean it's I just climb well below. What I'm you like your red point grade?
Speaker 2:Was that, was that a climb that you had project and climbed without a rope before? Or was that something that you just tried to like onsite?
Speaker 4:Oh no, that was something I wrote rope up before.
Speaker 2:Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 4:So I, when I sold in the PA, like I rarely went above like five nine. Yeah. And if I did, it was generally like a sport climb or a tra climb that I would call like a highball Boulder that I just didn't have any pads for. Gotcha. So I kind in Joshua tree, there's like some pseudo like highball, Boulder track climbs are like 30 or 40 feet.
Speaker 2:So, uh, I mean Kyle and I recently in, in some recordings, I don't think we've released it yet, but um, we've had these discussions regarding helmets. Um, and so it's a pretty interesting topic that we've had recently. And I know for myself, like I, I wear helmet whenever I climb, regardless of what I'm doing. Um, I think, you know, you've expressed that you're in a similar boat. Um, maybe
Speaker 1:No, actually
Speaker 2:Not than me.
Speaker 1:OK. I'm definitely way more lax with the helmet I helmet. My accident has changed that.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, I was wondering like, do you, do you always wear a helmet climbing? Do you prefer to not wear a helmet? Um, if you were soloing, would that change your approach? Um, just something we kinda interested in.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Usually for, I was on a rope at least track climbing for sure. I would try to always wear a helmet sometimes I just would forget. Uh, I'd say if it was anything over three pitches, I always had one just, it's easy to remember when it's a big day like that for some
Speaker 1:Reason. So, so funny, everybody has their own like little, little rule, you know, like, okay, when am I gonna wear a helmet? And I think we don't wanna dive too deep into this now cause we're gonna cover this later on. But I feel like most of the time people are thinking about when they're gonna take it off rather than when they should put it on, you know?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I, yeah. I, so I grew up skateboarding for like 12 years and my dad's worked in the ER, so he always like harped on me wearing a helmet when I was a kid and I always hated it and I never did. Yeah. And then now that I'm older, I'm like a, not wearing a helmet stupid. You can get hit by a little pebble and it can knock you out.
Speaker 1:Yeah,
Speaker 2:For sure. Yeah. It's uh, I, I've got a friend that I work with, uh, cam really great guy. He climbs a lot too, but he used to be a skateboarder. Maybe he'd consider himself still one, but yeah, he would say the same thing. Like yeah, never wore a helmet ever skateboarding, but climbing he's like I got a helmet on all the time and it's just like this interesting, like depending on the culture of the sport, like it's either taboo or not taboo. Like you don't see road cycles without a helmet. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Without helmets on. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's pretty interesting. Um, what did, what did your dad do in the, in the ER, if you don't mind?
Speaker 4:Uh, he started out as flight paramedic, then he was a nurse and now HES assistant.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Super, super cool. Really interesting.
Speaker 1:Um, before we jump, I wanna jump into your accent here real quick. Um, like very soon, but before we do one thing I want to talk about real quick, you know, I think a lot of people when the topic of soloing comes up, cuz you know, you were soloing this route that we're about to talk about. It's all negative. So I want to, I want to give you a chance, talk about soloing in the positive. You know, I want you to describe the experience you feel while you're soloing. Like why do you do it like inside? Like why do you solo and what benefits do you get out of it? Um, yeah, if you could just kind of talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So, I mean, it's gonna be subjective for everyone. So like what makes excited or like what I enjoy or get from it, it's gonna be different than other people. But I'd say like when I enjoyed it the most is if I did like a, a peak in the mountains, like somewhere in this Sierra, Nevada and somebody and having it all to myself, being the only person around like a four mile radius, it's just, um, I don't know. It's like the most sense of freedom I've ever had. That's pretty. And then even, even like say like I used to go to lover's leap lot, cause it's just a nice little place to get a lot of pitches in and yeah, even something like that where it's like, it might only be a three pitch route. It's still just at least for me, like as I'm climbing, I'm fully focused on what I'm doing and nothing around me or nothing that I'm dealing with in my personal life. It's just me, my music and the rock. And then like, yeah, you just, it's a good sense of relief when you get to top for me, like this kinda releases any tension I might have had from just daily stress.
Speaker 1:So you you're saying the isolation is, is the biggest aspect to soloing. So if, you know, if, if that was the case, what would drive you to solo if there were, uh, a ton of people around,
Speaker 4:Um, Hmm. Kinda if I already go in with the mindset that I wanna solo something that day,
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter.
Speaker 4:It definitely, I mean, I don't like slowing around people. I'll do it if it's route I'm really comfortable with.
Speaker 1:So like my, my I'm not really trying to focus on the people I'm trying to focus on. Like again, again, the positives, like, so if isolation is what you get out of it, when you're in the mountains, what do you get positively out of soloing when there are other people around it? Like, what is that driving force? What, what's the benefit?
Speaker 4:I'd say, it's just, uh, I guess it kind of proves yourself that you're, for me, it kinda like validates my confidence.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:Um, I don't know, actually that's a good question.
Speaker 1:Uh, cool. I mean, we can circle back on that cause uh, we'll be talking about it later. Um, I guess, uh, a couple questions, more kind of, what factors do you consider when choosing too solo or not?
Speaker 4:Uh, I'd say it's like 99% of the time is whether or not I feel comfortable. It's like I can be super stoked at the car and like feel a hundred percent prepared to do this. And then I get to the base, like I've had multiple times I've gone 10, 20 feet up and then it just, wasn't in the head space for it and just down climbed and called it a day. So it's kind of, definitely for me, it's like just being aware of where I'm at, like mentally. And I feel like I have the confidence to stay comfortable a couple hundred feet up, even if it's a route that I've done a couple times, a hundred times.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's interesting. You're, you're bringing up the word confidence a lot. I feel like it seems like, uh, you know, people use the word ego and sometimes that's like used as a bad thing, but it definitely seems like the ego and soloing seem to be tied together a lot. And it, you know, you had mentioned before, you know, if you think you're, you're gonna fall, then you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be soloing. And uh, yeah, it just seems like, uh, there seems to be a, a pretty big connection between like your confidence and yourself and like how you're feeling and like this, this ego that we have in terms of our own abilities and how we're feeling and, and soloing. So it's just a pretty, pretty interesting, uh, comparison to see.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I feel like that a level of confidence definitely like toes, the line of being like arrogantly cocky versus like confidently aware of what you're doing. I dunno if that's the right word, but
Speaker 1:I mean, I, I get what you're saying and I, I'm trying to say, I think that too solo, I think you have to have a little bit of that, that mentality to pull it off. Um, you know, you have to just, you have to assume and, and know in your heart and your mind that you can do it, even though you, you clearly might not, you know, cause if you thinking that you might not, then the chances of you falling are probably, uh, extremely higher than if, you know, if we were the other case.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I feel, yeah. I feel like that's gotta be the case. Yeah. So I've definitely had times where I've gotten scared on a route and it's because I don't have that like a hundred percent confidence, Like for whatever, like maybe it's just a loose rock that spooked me or something, but yeah, when you get a little distracted, you lose just enough confidence that sometimes you question why you're still there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What the hell you're doing up there? Yeah. I get that on lead sometimes. So I can't even imagine Robless. Yeah. Uh, cool man. Well, I think this is an awesome place. Max. You want kind of, um, lead us here into, to the accident.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally. Um, so, you know, I guess what we're just looking for here is like a brief overview of that day. Like, you know, uh, how are you feeling? Why were you there? Where were you for, you know, let's who, uh, don't know your story and, and you know, why did you choose that specific route? Um, and then maybe from there, we'll just kinda dive into that, you know, the accident and everything that happened to you.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So that day I up, it was a Saturday in the spring, which if you haven't been there really, you need to get, you kinda need to get up early and going or else you won't get parking anywhere. So I woke up later at like nine 30, went to go meet my friends at church bull parking, which is just a big picnic area that a lot of van line go to in the morning. Um, I went to go there, there wasn't parking available. So once there wasn't parking, I just decided to go solo something. And kind of at that point was like, well, I just, I picked Nutcracker cause I had sold it for the first time, like a week before that, and was just pretty psyched on the route.
Speaker 2:So for that day, do you feel like you chose soloing just like out of convenience or efficiency to get more roots in or was that like kind of like typical for you that like you, you know, you'd done the route enough, it wasn't really, um, something outta the ordinary and you felt confident doing it. So
Speaker 4:It's kinda like both, it was kind of, I couldn't get a parking spot. It wasn't, I was worried about getting in a lot of routes. It was kind just like, well, this seems like a good thing to do. If like, if I can't have my morning coffee, I'll have a morning solo and get the same kind of energy kick
Speaker 1:That seems like soloing became pretty nonchalant for you. If you were just kind of like on a whim deciding to do it, is that the first time you kind of just like on a whim decided to solo or, or have you done that before?
Speaker 4:I kind of got the habit. Like I spent like two months in Joshua tree last winter and we had a little crew that like, whether it was everybody would soul together or would kinda just do their own thing. It's like you kinda get up and there's so much easy routes close to your camping there. That it's pretty common to wake up and solo a couple pitches there. And then that habit, U 70 kinda has the same vibe as JRE. It's kinda just a bunch of dirt bags mixed in with tourists and you kinda get similar communities.
Speaker 1:That makes sense.
Speaker 4:But I don't, I mean, yeah, I guess I do it on a whi.
Speaker 1:Okay. So kinda like you, you got to the base kind of walk us through kind of, I don't wanna go dive into the details too much cuz there's a lot of information about your accident already online. So, uh, just kind of brief us over for the audience that hasn't heard or anything, you know, we are gonna put links to, to your story and everything in our description. So, um, you know, they'll be able to check out the details there. Uh, just give us a quick overview just for the sake of, of this story here kind on what happened. Um, you know, just a brief rundown.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So again, it was a Saturday, it's probably one of the busiest CRAs in UEM valley, I think for easy multi pitch. So I got there and I mean all the pretty much every route was taken, uh, there's a good route after six and after seven just to left to Nutcracker that were taken. So I kind of just walked back and forth between the routes, trying to see which one would clear up soon enough to do. And it just, no cracker happened to be the one that opened up for me to sneak in.
Speaker 7:Okay.
Speaker 1:And uh, yeah, I mean, you, you climbed up, I, I remember you, you passed a party, you know, you had asked them whether that was okay and they said it was fine. Um, and I think you fell at, uh, pitch four. Um, you know, you had said that, you know, either a hand or a foot blue, you don't really remember. Um, and that resulted in like 150 to 200 foot fall, is that correct?
Speaker 4:Yeah. It was like halfway up the fourth pitch on like the, I guess like crux section and yeah, I don't, it had to a hand, one of the two or both
Speaker 1:Was the, like was the section you were in overhanging Slaby whether you were in a crack, were you on a face kinda describe us the, the features you were on
Speaker 4:It's like this hand crack that kind of, it's like a little bulge that you have to pull over. I would call it steep or anything slabs out. Um, the hand jams are good. The feet aren't, which I guess it might have been a foot slip, but I mean, I've fallen on, I've fallen on a rope before and like had my fingers stuck in finger locks. Like I was kinda surprised that if my feet did slip that my hands didn't stay
Speaker 1:Perfect storm.
Speaker 2:Yeah. For sure Accidents happen. Right. And
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, and so, so the terrain itself is not vertical, right? Like when I'm thinking of it for like, anybody's like in BC or anything, like there's a place called the apron in Squamish, which is like, you know, lots of, tons of great moderates between like, you know, like I dunno, four to nine pitches and, uh, and so not vertical. Right. So if you're falling, like what happened to me in my accident is I had a hand foot slip, like I'm little iffy and gray on it. Um, but like I, I slipped and fell and then was like sliding down this kind of like non vertical Slaby portion until I went like into a granite nub and just like broke both my ankles. Right. Um, so that's kind of what I'm envisioning for like what, what you're falling down, except my fault was like 30 feet in yours seems to be 150 to 200 feet, which is quite a drastic difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Were, were you in contact at the rock all the way down or were he like bouncing
Speaker 4:I'm sure. Yeah. Uh, I think I was just sliding down. Like I had, I think like my entire buts were road rash on both sides.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 4:Um, I had like, my entire hands had road rash on them from I think trying to slow down and just grab It's. Like, I think if it had been any steeper, I probably would be dead for sure. Yeah. Cause I think like it being low angles, the only reason like my head stayed up. Cause I think if I had hit my head even a little bit, it probably wouldn't have made it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's heavy. Like just visioning it all right now. And it's just like making me making feel heavy.
Speaker 2:It's really crazy. The aspect of like just falling down a face and kind of like clawing for life and trying to slow yourself down. There's it's uh, it's very desperate. Um, but, um, so yeah,
Speaker 4:It's kinda nice to know that if a fighter flight response happens, that I was at least willing to take the fight. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It just likes like, but I mean either way though, like you, you never really know and that's, that's totally a, uh, that's a response that I feel like your subconscious is controlling. You know what I mean? Like, so I feel like, but
Speaker 4:Um, yeah, I was talking to one friend and cause you know, obviously everyone tells me, it's like, oh, you're so lucky to be alive. And it's like, yeah, it's true. But I had one friend who's like, well, I don't think you're lucky. I think you just really wanted to live and interesting. Your body found a way to make that happen.
Speaker 1:It's a very interesting perspective. And I think that which like, yeah,
Speaker 4:Maybe it's not entirely true, but it could be part of the reason,
Speaker 1:The power of words, man. I think that it's a heavy statement and I think that it has a lot of power to, to it. So I think that latching onto that and for me, that's what I would, I would believe in, you know, we have a choice to kind of believe what our reality is and that, uh, that situation is, is just so fleeting and, and hard to, to analyze. So that particular analyzation of that, that situation is, is a really good one I think. Um, so yeah, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, and so for the, so, so for listeners who don't know, right. So essentially like your top of pitch four, you've fallen down this face, um, you know, kind of like clawing and trying to stop yourself and there's a, a belay ledge. Um, the top of the third pitch is what it is or correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 4:It's the start of the third pitch.
Speaker 2:Okay. Start of the third pitch and uh, yeah. And so you essentially, uh, you essentially fell and decked that ledge and I believe there was a gentleman who was actually at that stance. Right?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, and then
Speaker 4:Yeah, I believe he had to jump out of the way.
Speaker 1:That's what I read at least.
Speaker 4:Do you,
Speaker 2:Do you remember like sliding in, in the impact point and everything? Or were you like locked out or if you, if you don't mind, like just taking a, so I was a little bit of that.
Speaker 4:I was conscious the whole time. Uh, my memory is not as good as I thought. Like I definitely remember at some point falling. I remember seeing the ledge, knowing that I was, well, hopefully I was gonna hit it. Cause I think that's the only thing that, that, that's another thing that kept me alive. Um, but yeah, I don't remember like, honestly as much as I thought, like I know I hit it at some point I gave I, cause I broke his phone apparently and my phone was somehow fine. So I gave him my phone. I'm assuming he, I don't know if he called search and rescue or whatnot, but I hadn't texted my friends and, you know, just let people know what was going on
Speaker 1:From what I read. Um, there were a lot of parties around the area that day and some of them heard, uh, like a scream, like a, just a, some sort of verbal, you know, something's not good. And then a loud thud, um, and immediately called search and rescue. Um, yeah. And so it's, to me, from what I read to, you know, through these articles that are out there on the internet, it was like someone in that didn't even know what happened or didn't even see what happened. It was all audio, which is really crazy that your accident just from the sounds knew, you know, that that's search and rescue regardless of what happened. Um, so that's pretty interesting. And uh, I read also that you landed in a seated position on the, on the ledge.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think I land sitting on a Boulder. Geez. Which that also might have be the reason I don't have the multiple broken legs. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Crazy. Um, were you, were you like cognizant, like aware of your, of your injuries, like when you were seating there, like, were you, were you like kind of assessing your body or did the injuries you had just stained like in the event? Was it like, so, um, I don't know. I guess like so traumatic that maybe you were just kind of in like shock, like if you could, if you don't mind talking about that a little bit.
Speaker 4:Um, so I had a punctured lung, which I think was distracting me. I don't even remember if I felt pain, I assume I did, but I think I was distracted enough by like not being able to breathe very well from a puncture lung and then Cole, the guy that was there. I'm pretty sure he was pretty, he was handling me pretty well in terms of like, not letting me get in the shock or anything, but I don't honestly know if I knew like the severity of how broken I was at that time, because like, I think I was, I think it took two to four hours to get me off and
Speaker 8:Wow.
Speaker 4:I remember maybe time, Two minutes of the whole thing.
Speaker 8:Wow, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Two to
Speaker 1:Four hours.
Speaker 4:That's how, and I don't even actually know if it was two to four, like it might have been shorter. I'm not sure, but I remember reading that I was up there for a couple hours.
Speaker 1:I mean, having search and rescue, get it called, having them understand where you are choosing whether or not to wrap you down or pull you off with a helicopter and then pull you off the wall with the helicopter, bring you to, uh, you know, um, LCAP, Meadows. I think that's what it's called, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah. And then to transfer to you another hospital, I'm sure. You know, just logistically that's, I would say at least two hours. So, you know, that's probably an accurate timeframe.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I, I know. Um, I know for, for my injury, uh, you know, I, I, I, I felt really like guilty and, and like upset and like feeling the need to call search and rescue and, and, you know, like not self extricating myself for you, obviously that was like, kind of given that you weren't gonna be capable of doing that. So definitely a different circumstance. Um, but I'm wondering if at the time you were aware of like any feelings of like guilt or how you process that. Um, and as well, like one other caveat to that, like Kyle and I have discussed this, you know, like in Canada, there's this socialized kind of healthcare system, whereas in the us, um, there's definitely difference in to the healthcare system. So I'm wondering, you know, did you have to float the bill for, for your rescue?
Speaker 4:So I wasn't, I think I was in too much pain or just, I was in too much trauma to think about like, feeling guilty about having to call search and rescue. And I, yeah, so I, I, that, that thought never came up until like, after I got outta surgery in the hospital, um, I was surpri I mean, in a sense I was really fortunate cause I I'd been outta work for like eight months cause I just living in a van on the road. So I actually got signed up for, I think it's Medicaid. So I have not seen a single bill from any of this.
Speaker 1:Wow. That's awesome, man.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And I don't know if I will or I'm sorry. That's, that's a lie. I've gotten like$20,000 in bills from like x-rays and stuff, but I haven't, I'm still trying to figure out if I actually have to pay for it. Otherwise I haven't seen a single bill and I think I read from another poster, like the helicopter bill alone is probably 50 plus thousand.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah,
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Wow. I think that's uh, so, so I, for, for me, like, uh, you know, the Canadian over here, I don't know what, uh, the, the Medicaid program. So how does that work? Was that something that you were legible for because you had been out of work or?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so, cause I was unemployed and quote homeless. I love it.
Speaker 1:I've never heard of
Speaker 4:Medicaid. So it's kinda like the us is like standardized if the us had standardized healthcare. Yeah. For everyone. It's what Medicaid would pretty much be. I believe
Speaker 1:I've never heard of Medicaid covering a helicopter flight though.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I don't know how I haven't seen a bill yet. That's all I know.
Speaker 1:That's all I man, don't, don't, don't ask for the bills and I haven't
Speaker 4:Gotten, I haven't been called by like predators or whatever they call'em okay. Loan collectors. Yeah. Yeah. So, so far I'm okay.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, man. Good to hear.
Speaker 4:And yeah, it's just like, why it makes you question why we don't have this for everyone in the country
Speaker 1:Totally
Speaker 4:Is a, another topic in general, but
Speaker 1:Yeah,
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. Definitely a, a different topic for the day, but yeah, super, super happy to hear that, you know, that's not another thing that you have to deal with in your life, you know? Cause kinda it's, that's just like this added layer.
Speaker 4:I mean, within the first couple weeks I already decided like I was already expecting to have to take out my retirement money and declared bankruptcy. Like I was period to do it if I had to, but I'm obviously pretty happy not to.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, I, I personally have gone through bankruptcy and I will say like, there's a lot of negative connotations that are attached to it, but it is sick. The fact that you can, like, if you get yourself into an accident like that and you have just this absorbant amount of debt, the fact that there is a path for you to take where you can just magically wipe, wipe it away. Um, you know, and if you're, you know, like yourself, you said you were living in a van and stuff, you don't have that many personal effects. Like it's you not really giving up that much and you get a clean start and you get a clean, fresh, you know, beginning. And I think that's just a, a really magical thing that you know, is out there. So I just wanted to, to kind of paint over that yeah. That negative connotation a little bit
Speaker 4:When it was the biggest worry, which would be like the first month or two, I honestly, I could, I could care less at that point if I had to. Cause I was, I was much concerned about just being able to walk or like move again that losing whatever money I saved up wasn't I didn't care.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 4:So it's like I still have four years of my life to make money if I need it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4:But again, really glad I don't have to.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, well, yeah, we're, we're kind of cruising along here on the timeframe. Um, I wanna kind of jump a little bit, um, you know, just quickly, if you could talk about just the, the immediate, like mental devastation of realizing kind of the situation that you were in, in reference to your injuries. Um, you know, I can imagine, you know, you were saying that even the rescue and everything was just a blur, what was that moment like when you just like you realize the situation you found yourself in,
Speaker 4:I'd say it probably took like four. So I was in the ICU for like four or five days and I don't think it really hit me until I was outta the ICU because I think, cause I think that's once I was outta the ICU, I no longer was getting like pain meds dripped into me. So I was not exactly high all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it, yeah, I, yeah, I don't know. It takes a while for, especially at the time, like I was being told I'm not gonna be able to walk again. Cause I thought like my injury was worse than it turned out to be. And I mean, they try to be pretty honest with you. Cause every spinal cord injury is different. So like they don't know if you'll be able to walk or anything. So it's like the first couple days of that was just like, the, is the worst decision in my entire life. Like yeah, just replay that in my head, wishing I could go back and not do it that day.
Speaker 1:Yeah. That, that is a, a heavy feeling for sure. There's nothing you can do about it either.
Speaker 4:And then I have like, I've been doing with this like quasi survivors guilt because I survive to fall that a don't and then not only did I survive, but I didn't even get as injured as I probably should have. So it's yeah, like some days I'll read stories with people that maybe not even a climber, just someone felt like five feet off a ladder and died. They were paralyzed from like the neck down and it's like, I felt farther than anyone should. And I mean, all things consider I'm doing pretty. I will.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I, I, there's a, uh, just got a general blanket statement that says, you know, every 10 feet is 10% chance that you're gonna die. You know, you far exceeded that the a hundred percent. So you definitely it's a miracle.
Speaker 2:Do you, uh, do you mind just real quick, just for any, uh, listeners who like haven't read the, write up in your story and stuff, just like listing your, your injuries, um, and kind of like your prognosis or diagnosis.
Speaker 4:Yeah, let's see. I had an open fracture of my OID navicular in the right foot, which is a heel on foot bones. Um, my left heel, I had like a, a big laceration that took like 20 something stitches. I had two small pills, fractures that were basically nothing. So I was pretty lucky. Um, the main thing was L one burst fracture, uh, lost like greater than 50% of the vertebrae height. Wow. Um, it caused a spinal cord injury. I fractured my sternum broke two ribs, broke my thumb and then had punctured lung. And I believe that was it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's quite a list.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's quite a list. I guess. That's just what I was clarifying when you're like, oh, like I'm like luckier, not as injured as I should have been. It's just for someone who maybe hasn't read your accident report. It's like, you're still quite injured. You're very, very lucky to be alive and off that ledge. Like
Speaker 4:I just got like within the first month too, like random people messed me on Instagram. They're like, oh, I feel like 40 feet. But theirs was like a more vertical fall. And like they broke both their legs or maybe they didn't get a spinal cord injury, but they broke like multiple vertebrae where, uh, I managed to only break one. Granted it was pretty good job, but Yeah, I just would've expected like multiple, like both legs broken, maybe a broken arm or two multiple. Yeah. I just, I would've expected a lot worse than what
Speaker 1:Happened. Just just means you're here for something bigger, you know?
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's what, There's a reason.
Speaker 1:Hey, that's up to you man. That's up to you.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I had a friend who asked me that if she was like, do you think there's a reason why you lived and maybe others weren't fortunate. And I just told her, it was like, I hope there was some higher calling for me that I don't know about.
Speaker 1:I think that that's, you know, time will tell. I think that it's not something you can just be like, oh yeah. That's why I'm I survived. You know, I think that, you know, ideally, you know, with, you know, the time will come where you, you look back and you're like, all right, like I get it. I understand like, this is why I survived. And you know, you'll have a little bit of closure on that note.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think the idea that you need to have some like prophet realization, like right away or something
Speaker 1:Right away.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like, you know, things take time, you gotta heal, you gotta deal with your life and things. So, um, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Especially when it really comes down to, life's just not fair. So like some people, yeah. Some people just get short end of the stick and I somehow got the long end of it and
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 4:I think I, I'm trying to, I'm trying to dwell on it less and less and just appreciate that I'm still here and like try to keep living my life the way I want to.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So
Speaker 4:Yeah,
Speaker 2:For sure. Will GA has a quote where he kinda I'll take it outta context or something, but it was just something about like the universe doesn't love you. And he said it kind of sarcastically and it's like, it's very true. You know, like sometimes people get the idea that like, you know, the, the world is like created for them or something and it's just, unfortunately, you know, things happen. Um, just, uh, I know, I know for myself, like when I was in the hospital, um, you know, just, uh, what I'll call like the, the like mental devastation of just, you know, your, your thoughts are running over in your head, like a washing machine. You're feeling really depressed thinking about the accident mistake, you know, just ruminating on that kind of, um, that experience, you know, like, uh, how was that for you and, and how did you overcome that if you felt like have, because, you know, I'm, I'm imagining that really, really
Speaker 4:Up until the past like month, I think pretty much every day, there was a point where I probably, I wish I died. I wish I was dead. Like, yeah. I wouldn't say I really handled it too. Well. I mean, I definitely like the last like eight months or however long it's been, been like the most depressive ever been. And then up until like, I kind of moved out on my own. It's like the first time I'm finally, it's like, I might go more than one day where I don't wish I was dead, which is like a big improvement from where it was like, at least once a day. It's just like, I hate this. Like, why am I still here?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Really, really, really happy, man. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Who, uh, you know, who's been your support group, um, throughout this process and, and kind of, you know, you have to think about moving forward instead of looking back and, and being regretful, like, what is your outlook for the future? And, and who's been there to support you.
Speaker 4:I mean, like close friends and family have been there the whole time. I would say I've been good about like, like I've been pretty, pretty good at self isolating through all like the depressed times or like the worst ones. So, but yeah, I mean, I've had like a core group of people that are always there if I need'em
Speaker 1:That's good. And then the, yeah, the future,
Speaker 4:Like, uh, it's becoming more optimistic. I mean, up until like the end of the year, like I definitely just had no Des I don't know. I just didn't care about anything, but now I'm getting like more mobile and kind of more accepting of where things are. Like, if things don't get any better for me that's right. But like I'm still, yeah. I mean, I I'm recycled on climbing game, which has helped a lot. Just something to get me my mind off other stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I saw you, I saw you in the gym top roping now was how I was like blown away when I saw that. I was like, oh, hell yeah, that's awesome, man. So it's really cool to see you get in back there. And you know, this is something that max and I were talking about a little bit, you know, it's, it's so important to you to have that, you know, you were talking about in the military, you know, your, your drive to, to keep pushing and to keep going through hard circumstances. And obviously, you know, this is a lot different than going up an Alpine objective and coming back in 20 hours, you know, this is the longest Alpine objective of your life at this point. You, um, and, uh, yeah, it's just, you know, it's, it's so important to, to keep, you know, to keep pushing and to keep that, that eye on the prize. And I think that you know, climbing, it did get you into this problem, but it's also probably going to be what gets you out of it as well. Um, so it's really cool to see you, to see you still pushing for that and, and, uh, keeping that fire alive.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It really just comes down to, I have no other hobbies.
Speaker 1:Fair enough.
Speaker 4:That's been very apparent through this whole injury process. Cause I've had, I mean, I haven't had to do anything. Like I just had so many hours the day to fill and like I don't play video games. I've never been artistic. I don't like having instruments like the whole time. I'm just sitting there bored outta my mind. Cause like I can't climb or do anything. Like I can't just go ride a bike or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's, that's just so much to deal with. And, and obviously just filling the time when you're injured. Right. And like after a certain amount of TV or whatever, you know, you're just ready to pound your head against the wall and feeling like trapped inside your own home and trapped inside your own body with, uh, you know, limitations. So that's just such a, a challenging thing to deal with and to overcome and, uh, yeah, man feeling free to deal with that and stuff. Um, but I, I think that definitely, you know, I think that that, uh, definitely drives into, I mean, unless if you're okay to like, kind of move on a little bit here, Kyle, and to
Speaker 1:Like, yeah, totally. I think we're, we're definitely good to move kind of out of the accident and of, you know, your, your personal story as it were and move on to the more of these kind of deeper topics about kind of what we can pull from this accident. Um, you know, I guess just, just a, a very general question to start this whole thing off is, you know, how has this accident kind of like made you view soloing, you know, has, has that changed at all?
Speaker 4:Uh, no,
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 4:I mean, yeah, I don't, I don't, yeah, I don't view it negatively or more positively. It's just, yeah, it's part, I mean, I took the risk and I just happened to have one of the worst things happened that could Like, I don't think it, yeah. I mean, I would probably, so again, if like I ever got to point that I could, so again, but I don't know if my body will physically be able to
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:SU super interesting. Yeah. Like I think, um, obviously soloing is such a, such a heated and controversial topic and debate, and it's such a personal decision, but people don't seem to view it that way. Right. Um, there's so many other things to a dive into and the way it's, uh, it's affected, um, you know, people and their lives. And so I think it's really interesting to hear you say that, that you still like make that choice for yourself and that, you know, this experience hasn't really changed that for you. I think there's something really, really interesting and really powerful about that. Um, and I'm wondering, how does your, how does your family feel about soloing and kind of this, like, you know, this process and stuff, have you talked to them about that?
Speaker 4:Uh, it's never really come up. Like, I don't think they, I don't think they really get it like one way or the other. It probably just like, I think for like my dad, for instance, it might be, you know, the same as when I was skate, I didn't wanna wear helmets. Like, well, why the hell would you do that stupid? Like, even though like maybe 99 outta a hundred times, you're not gonna need the helmet. There's that one time that you do need it, that it could drastically change your life, which is kinda the same with Souling. Yeah. But yeah, it's never really come up at all. I think there's at I'm alive and still trying to push hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, you, you, you know, you say that it's outta the question for now. Um, do you think, you know, I guess you kind of answered this question, but like, do you think that, are there moments when soloing is unnecessary to begin with and if not, like, when do you feel like solo is an acceptable risk? Like for, for our listeners, maybe someone who's thinking about soloing and is inspired by these positive benefits that you talked about. Like when is it unnecessary and, and when is it an acceptable risk? Like, what is that line?
Speaker 4:Uh, I mean, I can't answer that for anyone else. It's
Speaker 1:Personal journey. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Like I don't wanna influence someone one way or the other to do it or not do it. It's you gotta be comfortable with the, the risk you put yourself into and potentially put others into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally fair. Right. I respect
Speaker 4:It's like, it's like, if you choose, I don't wanna say so is a religion, but like, it's kind, it's kind like too using religion, you have to find something that hits you like spiritually, or like, there's a reason why you're attracted to that religion or this kinda spiritual guidance or something.
Speaker 1:So yeah. I guess the line would be like, ask yourself why you're doing it. You know, if you're doing it for the exposure or you're doing it for fame or you're doing it because
Speaker 4:Yeah, because it's attached. So your,
Speaker 1:Your ego is like really huge and you wanna do it because you wanna impress people. Like those are the wrong reasons.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Makes sense. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think in the, uh, in the era that we're in now where it's, there's so much like social media dominant things and constantly showing like, you know, adventure and the highlights of people's lives, that's like the majority of what, like, or at least I feel that like social media is filled with and Kyle and I have kind of talked about this and touched on this before. Um, but yeah, it is really interesting to see, you know, with these new films, like the alpinist and, um, you know, free solo and just the infant that you get from soloing, like, you know, is that, is that affecting people's perception of it is that inspiring people who may, he should not be soloing to solo, um, because back what you guys just touched on, right? Like you need to, at least I'm not a soloist, so I'm just, you know, speaking from a, you know, like third party commentary. But, um, I feel like you need to have a really strong why in why you are soloing and you need to be really, really set on that, your confidence, your competency, um, you know, your, you could call it spirit awareness of yourself. All those things need to be in line because it's, uh, it's only for the, the very, the very best people on their very best day. You know what I mean? Like performing, um, on those, on those routes or solos, whatever you wanna call it. So
Speaker 4:See, I feel like the alpinist was actually good because it didn't really like a hundred percent idolized. It wasn't entirely about soling. It was just about this guy. That's just an insane climber and he's pushing his boundaries. And I almost appreciate like the ness more because he did like a couple huge solos and he purposely ignored getting media attention from him. Yeah,
Speaker 9:Totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The media were like trying to find and, and chasing him around and all off is pretty funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I, I, uh, um, I, I definitely agree with you on that. And I know the, and, and I mean, I'm not like knocking Alex, hon. I think there's a lot of things you could talk about that or free solo. I think it's an amazing movie and I was very inspired and really enjoyed that. Um, but I, I agree with you. I resonated with the appis more and story and the tragedy of it. Um, it was very powerful and very moving. And I remember thinking afterwards, like, uh, just, you know, even though John mark is, is gone, um, he's, he's really impacted just so many people's lives and just inspired so many people to just kind of like, or at least inspired me, I feel to seek a life of like adventure and to also kind of like take a step back sometimes from, you know, like, I really love to present myself on social media platforms and sometimes I'm guilty. Like other people are as well too of presenting things, you know, more ideal than they are. Um, and I think, yeah, like seeing him not be interested in having people there and just trying to be in the moment present having those experiences, um, I think that was a really powerful thing and a really like, um, just, yeah, really powerful and, and, and bringing to light, like, uh, a fresh, like a breath of fresh air in like the modern world we live in, where just everything is just posted, go, go, go. And it's usually just really good successes.
Speaker 4:Well, it's like, what, what I like about the alpinist isn't even the soloing parts, like what drew me to it is just him climbing in like Aine conditions, even broked up. Cause like, I haven't I've, I haven't even seen free solo and I don't think I ever will. Cause I just don't care to watch that. Okay. Like it just says for me, at least just someone soling like that's, I don't know it doesn't in like, it's insane what he did, but doesn't inspire me to do my own stuff.
Speaker 9:That's so out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think this kind of brings us to kind of one of the topics I wanna cover, you know, with free solo, you know, and, and Instagram in general and media climbing media in general and honestly, outside of climbing media, I think that just media in general, in terms of action sports, it seems like risk is glorified a lot. Um, and a lot of the times unnecessary risk is, is glorified. But the consequences of those exact same risks are then shamed. Like, can you comment on this, like paradox we're finding in the media and in climbing specifically.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, I've definitely experienced it personally, but it seems like sometimes the professional or whatever it is, they take the high risk they're successful. Yeah. And then they're glorified with hiring contracts or media attention, and then Joe blow, who's an amateur at whatever he does, he or she does, they get it hurt or they get killed. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, they're taking too much risk. Whereas like if the professional died, it would probably be, oh, well he died doing what he loved. She died doing what she loved.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So
Speaker 4:Whereas it seems like the amateur is just like, oh, they're just stupid. And they don't know what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Interesting. So you're, you're saying that there's this line between, you know, people who don't get shamed because of some sort of title that they have versus the people, you know, the majority, the, the majority of people who aren't in the mainstream media are getting shamed for, for essentially the same actions. Just on a different level.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. It seems to happen. I don't know if it's entirely true if it's just generalization, but like I definitely got like on by the trolls on Instagram, whenever there's articles posted, which, you know, it's, it's understandable. But some of it's just, if I was Alex, hon, they probably like, oh wow. He died doing what he loved or like,
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Like, it's just this crazy, this crazy juxtaposition between, you know, the people are dealing with,
Speaker 2:Well, I think the metric there needs to be, uh, competency. Cause for example, you know, you were saying you're, soling like the Nutcracker, what's the great five, seven or something.
Speaker 4:5, 8, 5, 8.
Speaker 2:Okay. And you could climb like, you know, into the elevens and the twelves. So if you're looking at the, the disparity there in grades of what you're soloing compared to what your actual climbing point is, you know, that's probably, that's probably a greater margin of error than, than Alex Honnold, you know, free soloing free rider. Cuz I think his like, you know, top climbing grades are probably like 14, C, 14 D and like some stuff on free rider I think is like 13 a B. So there's like a lot larger disparity there. Not that like, we're really trying to like comment or something like that. But I think the metric needs to be like, you know, competency, like, you know, did the person, where was the person engaged and did they know what they were doing and were they doing it for the right reasons? And you know, did they assess risk appropriate in their life? Because for example, if you were like a five, nine climber and then you're like, oh, like I'm just going to soul of the Netcracker for the day. Like I would, it would probably affect my opinion of that. But like, from what I know you from reading the article and everything, it seems like you had a, like you have the right approach to people should, should be soloing in a sense, if that makes sense. That's the feeling that I'm, I'm getting it from it.
Speaker 4:I mean, obviously I'm biased, but I would like with that,
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Like looking back, I wasn't in the right head space the day I a solo. And I obviously didn't wanna, I wasn't aware of that myself or I didn't believe that, uh, that day I was like that day is when I crossed the line of confidence to like probably too big of an ego or cockiness maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, um, like a good example of what I'm trying to talk about is there was, I think it's called the flat irons in Boulder collar. There was like an individual who there's actually GoPro video of this crazy.
Speaker 1:I watched that video, dude. It was insane.
Speaker 4:Oh, are you talking about the guy that
Speaker 1:Kyle something
Speaker 4:Or whatever?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. As, as was like supposed to climb a five, nine and ended up on a five 13. And it was like, well, if you can't
Speaker 1:Tell he was in running shoes too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. If you can't tell the difference between five, 13 and five nine, you should not be so things. Cause you know, like there's, there's a really big visual difference. There's a difference, you know, like just it's it's it's quite, and so not, not to hate on him so much, like I'm sorry for that person in his accident. I heard he made a full recovery. I, I wish him all the best. Um, but, but that would be an example to me of like, okay, like that, that doesn't seem to be in the right mindset or head space. Like you don't even know the route you're on the grade is 10 times harder. Like there's just so many, there's so many like errors there that you can actually are really within your control. Whereas like popping off of a hold it's within your control to the extent of like climbing, but like those are accidents that happen, you know what I mean? Like so, um, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I just read that story the other day first for the first time is yeah, I think that's like, I feel like that's how the majority people that don't understand solely look at it is like, oh, this person had literally no idea what they're doing or like he was apparently comfortable enough to solo, but yeah, not being able to decipher five nine is like five 13 is I don't know how you could ever be that comfortable
Speaker 1:Even visually you should be able to see it and just be like, eh, probably not what I should be on. Um, but yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 4:I mean, I've, I've tried to sew like some five eight, like friction slab before that I think I made it up a bolt or two and like even at five, eight, I was know what, like, I know I can do this, but I'm just not comfortable with this. Like I'm just gonna go down cause I wanna
Speaker 2:Terrifying. Um, so I, I guess, uh, I, I guess, um, you know, a question here that I'm, I'm pretty interested in, um, is, uh, you know, do you feel lucky that you survived, um, your fall? Um, or do you feel like remorseful that you lived?
Speaker 4:Uh, it's definitely dependent. I don't know if I ever feel lucky that I lived, I might be like impartial, but I'd say easily for the past, like nine months, most days has been like re some days it's like remorseful that like I survived something I probably shouldn't have. And then there's other days where it's not necessarily remorseful. It's more just like, I hate all this. Like,
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Cause I know when we, you know, we, we previously, um, you know, you had mentioned that, you know, when you were soloing, you just envisioned that, not like envisioned yourself doing this, but like had you ever fallen, you had just accepted that you were gonna die, you know, and obviously that, that happened and you didn't die. Like you, you miraculously of, um, and are alive and, and in a, in a sense death would be so much easier, you know? I mean there's a whole religious and spiritual debate people can get into of whether there's life after death or whatever. Um, but for me, the reality is like someone dies, they're suffering ends. Like you, you don't exist anymore. You are, you are dead. Um, but you know, having to live through this and deal with the trauma of it and, uh, and kind of survive and find your footing again, like that's, that's really challenging. That's really hard. Um, and that's, that's, there's so many people living that existence, whether it's from a fall soloing or you get T-boned on the highway and you're para you know, like there's so many people just living with unbelievable trauma and they just have to, well,
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's what kind of makes it harder is like, there's so many people that it is 0% their fault and they're in a worse position than I'm in winning reality. Like, yes, this was an accident, but I could have prevented it a hundred percent. So like, yeah, it just comes back. I think the hardest thing I've been doing with is more just like survivors guilt versus anything else.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Um, I guess the last kind of topic I wanna, I wanna cover here before, um, before we close this off is, you know, we talked a little bit about shame and, and you know, you, you experienced that a little bit on Graham and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that a lot of the, the heat you got was for climbing above another party. Is that correct?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. That was definitely like the biggest point of contention.
Speaker 1:So I wanna kind of talk about, you know, personally, I feel that if you ask that party, if they're comfortable climb, I mean, above, you know, you climbing above them and they say, yes, I think that's a green light. And I think there's nothing ethically wrong with doing that. My bigger question that I want to ask is what are the ethics in your mind about climbing around other people soloing in general? You know, because if you do fall, you know, in your case, you survived, but more often than not, you're just gonna drag everybody else into of this show, mess. And most, you know, more often than not leaving, you know, you'll be dead and you won't have to deal with any of this mess and you're leaving this giant mess for people to clean up, you know, like literally emotionally, mentally. So like, what are your thoughts on, on soloing around other people and the situation that you are risking putting them in and, and not yourself?
Speaker 4:Yeah, like up until I fell, I never really thought about it much. Okay. It's like, uh, I don't know if like Kyle, if you've ever done cathedral P control
Speaker 1:On me, I've uh, I've not, no.
Speaker 4:Okay. Oh, I'm sure you at least know, like, it's one of the most popular multi pitches in California in general, probably, but like that thing will have 30 different parties on five pitch climb. Jesus. Maybe not like, not like the, I got
Speaker 1:Exaggeration that impossible.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And then in between that there'll be soul that's going through. That's crazy. And it's like just the amount of people on that. It's just as much of a cluster as like a soul is going by, uh, sorry. I don't even where I'm going with this. Yeah. Uh, I've never really thought about the impact, like would on others.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:Because like I never expected to fall.
Speaker 1:How about now? Since?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, yeah. Now it's definitely there. Cause it's been brought to my attention by a lot of people and I think it's like a legitimate conversation, but
Speaker 1:Like, I guess, I mean, I, I guess I'm trying to get you to, to make a little bit of a, a, a statement here, like ethically, do you think like soloing should be reserved for those moments, like you were talking about in the Alpine where you're by yourself and, and you know, if you're gonna be climbing around other people, it should just be roped just to kind of prevent this situation from ever happening. Or do you think that's too much restriction?
Speaker 4:I think that's weight too much restriction. I mean, it's, I don't know. Like if I ever were to soul in the future, I would not do it around any other one. OK. For that reason. Um, I mean more often than not, I tried to avoid people as it was, But whether other people, yeah. I don't know. It's just such a personal thing. I don't, don't like to be that person, like I've been on routes before where I'm roped up and a soul was pass to pass. Like I'll never say no, like I'd rather than keep moving on than
Speaker 1:Just hanging out,
Speaker 4:Stick around. Like yeah. It's like, it just makes me more comfortable knowing that they're outta my site. Yeah. And like, I don't wanna hold a soulless up cause maybe they start getting uncomfortable and it's like, all right, now they're in this position. I dunno. I think, I think like on,
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, like that's,
Speaker 4:It's a weird ethical question
Speaker 1:For sure. I mean, I think that you brought up an interesting point too, like soloing around other people. You're not only putting them in a situation where like, if you fall, it's a big mess, but you're also putting them in a situation where they have to like make this decision of whether or not they want you to pass. And like now you're like, it's this kind of awkward dance between like passing them and not passing them and stuff. And so it's just a lot that goes into it when you're starting to solo with, with other people around.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's, I don't know. I didn't do it enough to think about it. And then obviously like no one think, tell the situation where someone almost gets hurt. Like at the end of the day, like, I feel terrible that I put other people, even if they weren't in physical harm, just like having to deal with that trauma of like seeing someone almost dying and then being with that person for three hours or whatever it was until I get rescued.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I mean, I'm definitely
Speaker 4:Like, I just wanna, I go ahead. If I caused like mental trauma to someone I'd feel worse than like the fact that I'm broken right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I'm, I'm definitely not trying to, to blast you or to kind of shame you at all. I just wanted to kind of try to open that ethical question and, and see kind of what your perspective was before and after the accident. So, you know, thank you. Thank you for sharing that
Speaker 2:I know for myself, I was, uh, you know, reading through your threads and stuff like that. And I've personally had solo as past myself and they've always been really, really kind and courteous and I've kind of been in the same boat where I'm like, well, you're gonna be so much faster and efficient and I don't wanna affect your mindset of your day. So like if there's an appropriate place to pass, like of course. Um, but until actually reading your thread and your story, I had never actually given the consideration of, you know, a solo as being like an overhead hazard. If they fall, that's never something that has crossed my mind, but yet if another rope party passed, um, you know, if I'm letting the past, I am accepting an inherent risk by they can drop pieces of gear on me, which I almost had happen. I've almost been like smash Ash by an ATC piece climbing like, um, or, you know, they can drop rocks. So there is this level of risk that you have to take and assess when you let people pass. But I think it's kind of interesting that most people, or at least speaking for myself, I never really viewed that as a risk assessment. It was more like, oh, I'm in a line at the store and this person's gonna be faster than, so I'm just being like courteous as a human being. But like there actually is more of a discussion there to be had. Um, so I think that is interesting, you know, does that, does the risk that a soloist pose is that simply just because they're soloing is no longer acceptable and, and, and are you void of assessing that risk as a climber once again, just simply because it's a soloist, you know, if we just replace soloists with rope party, people would, would I feel like would just completely accept that inherent risk and be like, oh yeah, it's, it's totally fine. Or, oh, accidents happened, this guy dropped something or a rock dis lodge it's tragic, but an accident happened, you know, whereas the second you replace it with a soloist, there's kind of this like negative connotation of like, well, that guy. So, you know,
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's kind of frustrating. Cause it's, I mean, like I I'm, I think it's a legitimate debate. Like I like, like you, I'd never even thought about that before. It's like, when someone passes me, like the last thing I think about is me getting hurt. Cause they're falling, even if they're in a rope it's I think it's like the statistics of that happiness or so low, relatively amount of people climbing that it's just not something you're even, I think it's it's yeah. I just Don you think about, cause it's like the chances aren't that high and it's such a freak thing that I would never in a million years have even thought about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Um, but yeah, I mean, where does the climate community go with this? I have zero idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, I think it's an interesting debate to, to be had, you know, and I think let a, just even what we just talked about, which is actually assessing a soloist as an overhead risk, um, that in itself is actually a really, really interesting thing and a really good message I think, to get out, to like, for people to understand like, yeah, I actually do do assess that as a risk next time, you know, someone's being offered to pass you because you do have the right to say no, you know, if you're uncomfortable and a soloist is trying to pass you, like you can, can be like, you know, like I'm here, I'm struggling. I actually don't feel comfortable with you doing that. Like I think you as a climber of every right to say that. So I think it's a,
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, if, if you're on the route first, like you have, I mean, this person, solar can just blast by you if they want, but it pretty disrespectful.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Would,
Speaker 4:I mean, I've definitely seen people, they know sometimes even if it's a rope party, they're just like, yeah, I don't want you to pass me. Like Yeah. Just how it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I like, it's just a, it's just one of those interesting ethical questions slash dilemmas and there's not necessarily like the objective, this person's right. And this person's right. It's like, there's a lot of nuance in there and a broader, a broader discussion to be had. Um, something I am interesting. Uh, if, you know, I know like we're kind of running up on time here and stuff, but uh, if you don't mind, like something that I'm interested in knowing about is like, um, you know, uh, like PE people posting accident reports and like, uh, talking about mistakes and injuries and like getting shamed or, you know, being mocked for their experience. I think there's a really interesting, uh, aspect to, we need to be able to like, uh, critique and criticize and analyze like people and their actions and situations. And it's really important to do in sports that, uh, revolve around safety, right? Like you wanna learn from those situations. Um, but my take for lot of stuff in the media is there tends to be a lot of really unconstructive like shaming, um, where people, you know, just kind of keyboard worrying and, and, uh, and just not really being constructive at all and just, uh, affecting and, and shaming other people. And also just like not realizing that there's a, there's a person behind, you know, those remarks and those comments. And so as someone who's kind of experienced and gone through that, more wondering what your opinion is around that, and also like how you feel it, it affected yourself, like hear those remarks and, and have people, you know, comment like that about you
Speaker 4:Online. Yeah. I mean, I use social media, but I think it's like the ban of our existence at this point. And I think no matter how you bring up a topic online, it just automatically becomes toxic. It seems like for the most part. Yeah. Even if the intention isn't there, it's just, it's hard to interpret text through computer screen.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Talking about keyboard warriors. I think it's really easy to just
Speaker 4:It's like, yeah. So I don't remember what everyone said about me. Some of it was just like, you
Speaker 1:Know, I honestly went through it and it wasn't that bad. Yeah. I, I went through the forum. I, it was pretty, I would say it's pretty tame. Um, I posted my
Speaker 4:Accident report
Speaker 1:Mountain and got
Speaker 4:Like mountain project wasn't bad. It was like when climbing magazine posted a hardcore, it's like the people that comment on that, it was just like, holy. Like, yeah. I understand how you could feel that way. But like, I mean, there was a point I was mad enough that I had a cast on my left hand cast on my right leg. My left, my left foot was bandaged up. My right foot was bandaged up. This was like, when I could barely sit up on my own. And like, I was honestly enraged enough that I would've tried to fight someone in that position just cause it is so personal at that point. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And it's like, I don't, it's like, you can say that. Yeah, I was stupid, but like, I dunno. Yeah. It's just, if not providing a constructive argument around that, like you're entitled to your opinion, but at the end of the day, you could just keep that to yourself and it's,
Speaker 1:It's not helping anybody at all.
Speaker 4:Yeah. All it does is just polarize like the arguments. And it's kind of like, I don't want get too political, but it's like the divide like this social media. And so divisive that I think it's starting to do more harm than good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that you can use it both ways, but I definitely think there's a dark side and you know, we really want to, um, try to change that and, you know, encourage people to be more positive and be more constructive and to add something to the conversation rather than just throwing shade and hating on people, because that just gets us nowhere. And like you said, just polarizes the topic more and creates more separation. And that's just like the opposite direction we need to go in this community.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, cause like honestly there wasn't a lot of good points that people brought up.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, like, you can say the same thing, but like have an open conversation about it and like, you know, maybe you would learn, you know, it seems like you have done some self upon this accident and seems like you might, you know, have changed a couple things depending on, you know, what you're feeling, but someone just like hating on you and, and throwing this negative energy, isn't gonna do anything except just make you off, you know? And it's not gonna get anybody anywhere.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Like there's some people at that probably said something along the lines of like, oh, well I don't care what happened. Like he deserves it. It's like, yeah, it might be true. But like, it's it just, yeah. It just adds nothing. You can be like, yeah, I don't agree with what he did, but you know, blah, blah, blah. I just, yeah. I don't like social media and I use it more than I should. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, cool man. Uh, max, you got anything else before we kind of jump into these final words here?
Speaker 2:Um, no, I, I think I'm kind of pretty good to, I think we've covered a lot here and had a great conversation. So I think there's some, a couple final points here we can touch on and, and then go from there.
Speaker 1:Cool, man. Yeah. I just wanted to, you know, open up just a few questions, you know, as we close this conversation, you know, if there was any message that you wanted share with a, a budding climber or someone who's considering soloing, like what would it be like, do you have, that's just a general message for someone. It could be anything.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I don't know. Just cause I don't wanna be like the reason someone does or doesn't do something that's very personal decision.
Speaker 1:I mean okay. Maybe take soloing out of it and just, and just, uh, speak to a new climber.
Speaker 4:Just don't I mean, just have fun honestly. Like I feel like, I don't know, climbing just gotten very great Chasey the last couple of years and like it's always, everyone likes to improve and see their own improvements, but like some of the best days are just out there doing the easy stuff because there's, you're not stressed at all about like being scared or not, or if you can do the moves or not.
Speaker 1:That's an awesome, awesome message. And I think that drives so, so close to home for me, you know, I, I really started getting into that, that hype of chasing grades and attaching it to my ego of how hard I was climbing and getting at myself for not progressing. And, and I kind of like, I loved climbing, but I think that I, you know, like you said, some of best days were up on the mountains climbing 5, 7, 5, 8. Um, and those are the ones that I remember. I don't really remember, you know, climbing five 12, uh, you know, sport onsite or, or whatever. So yeah, it's just a really, really awesome message that, that you just shared.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, I spent like my first five years bouldering, I trained my at like, I took it as serious as you could. And then it, I kind of started to get burnt out for a couple years after that just cause I got weaker and it's like, you start getting frustrated. And then once I started rope climbing and started just doing like five eights five, nine's like, all right, this is well below my strength level, but like being 500 feet up, even if it's easy, a lot cooler than doing some hard moves, two feet off the around.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that was such a great point. You brought up and I know I've experienced that as well, too. Like wrapping up my value as a climber or my identity as a climber with like how hard I can climb. And I'm not a very good climber in the realm of like good climbers, you know? So, so it's like constantly feeling frustrated and like depressed and like insufficient and, and I totally agree with you, like all my best days out in the mountains, really just loving it and like having an amazing time and you know, like that experience isn't diminished because I'm climbing 5, 8, 5, 9, you know, it's like that tho those are just magical moments in the mountains and, and, uh, shouldn't be taken for granted.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, I think it's easier for me to say this cause now that I've gotten injured, it's kind of like, I'm never gonna be a, I don't know if I'll ever get to high level again, it's like, for me, it's kind of easier to just accept it and like, and like now I look back, it's like, right. Well, I don't remember the times I climbed this high grade or whatever, but it's like, oh, there was that time I did that peak. It might have been five, six, but I was the only person up there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think that, you know, this is something I drove in my episode. That's something that you just kind of said, you know, now that that has taken away from us, it's easy to accept and just focus on the easier climbing. I think that the message for, for someone who's not injured and who is kind of feeling like, you know, chasing grades, I really want to just like, say like, what's the point? Why are you chasing grades? Like, are you trying to become a professional climber? Like, what is the of reason? Is it because of your ego? Are you trying to impress yourself? Like, what is the reason? Because for me chasing grades, other than trying to become a professional climber, I don't see much of a point, um, anymore. And being a professional climber, isn't climbing twelves. It's, it's not even climbing thirteens anymore. Like you have to be this CR crazy sender climber. And that takes years of experience and the perfect body. And like, everything goes into it these days to be a professional climber. And even then like, you know, if you're scraping thirteens and you're, you're doing this, there's other things that go into it, there's marketability there's whether you could create content around your climbing. Like
Speaker 4:I was gonna say, I, I kind of dis I was about to disagree with you on the, uh, like strength aspect of professional climbing. It's like social media now. It's like, you can be a professional climber and climb five 11, because like you said, you can market yourself or you know, how to produce content
Speaker 1:Now, professional climber. What does that mean to you? Just that you have social media attention or that you're being paid by by brands to climb your projects.
Speaker 4:I mean, to me, it's someone that lives for a living and that's their main income source. Like, however that's derived within that context, like maybe they're just paid by their brand ambassadors or maybe they're climbing five, 15 high end stuff. I dunno.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah, but you bring up an interesting point, but yeah, I mean, I guess just my biggest takeaway here is just like ask yourself why, and if you don't really have a good reason for why you're too trying to chase the grades, maybe reassess kind of what your priorities are and, and just take into account what we're saying about, you know, the real essence of climbing and, and how it's adventure and, and having fun and, and being safe. Because if you are pushing grades and you injure yourself and you can't chase grades anymore, or you can't climb anymore, um, you're immediately gonna be regretful and you're immediately gonna, you know, be like us and be like, well, it's not really worth it.
Speaker 4:I mean, I wouldn't say, I mean, I still think pushing grades is worth it. Cause it's like the reason I push grades wasn't to just prove to some random people, I could climb that number. It was to show that like my pro, like I'm progressing and it's more like for me, it was always about pushing myself, like, all right, I did V 10, let's go for V 11. Like there's no end.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think if you're getting enjoyment outta that process, and that feels right for then that that's good. But like asking the question is like, like once again, if you you're like, you're interested in self improvement and just challenging yourself for the sake of challenging yourself, that seems to be like the right reason to be doing that. Right. Um, but yeah, I think like moving on here, um, you know, I'm just wondering maybe like, from, from this experience, like, it seems kind of like a, you know, like, like dumb question, I guess, but like, what is your, what is, uh, biggest takeaway from this? Like, if you could think of like one thing that's just, you know, really gawing at you.
Speaker 4:Uh, it sucks. I mean, I don't, yeah. I don't know. Like I don't, I don't think I came away with like some sort of, I don't know. Yeah, it happened, I hate it. Like I never would've thought it could happen and apparently it could. Yeah. The statistics weren't at 0% for me falling. And I realized that small bit of statistical probability, but somehow lived, I dunno, it just sucks.
Speaker 1:Do you think that in soloing, there ever is a 0% chance that you're never gonna of fall
Speaker 4:And climbing? There is never a 0% chance that you won't fall? Not even like
Speaker 1:Regardless. Yeah. It's always, it's always lingering there in the background.
Speaker 4:I think what's yeah. Soline is, there's just a higher percentage that you die in the fall.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Assuming full, full responsibility for,
Speaker 4:I mean, people,
Speaker 1:Performance
Speaker 4:People look so negatively on Souling because people die when they do, but like the people that climb the 8,000 meter peaks, there's more death than that than, yeah. Maybe any sport in the world other than like base jumping. Like every year people die on a mountain up there. Yep. And it's, they've accepted that risk and there's definitely times where are in like the 8,000 meter zone and they can't move on anymore. And then it puts other people in positions where they have to decide, do we try to help this person and risk our lives? Or do we just leave this person here and accept that? Or they have to accept the risk that they're probably just gonna die there. So it's just interesting that like, in that realm of the climbing world, that it's completely acceptable and like climbing, I don't know. Souling
Speaker 1:It's not. Yeah. And it's shamed it's
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. We really cause not that many people. I mean, people die Souling but like, compared to the amount of people that climb in general, it's not that high.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It is an interesting perspective that society has. Um, you know, you know, Alex, hon being, being glorified, people in the big mountains is glorified. I think that people, you know, society needs some sort of reason to attach the, the risk to, and yeah, I guess, um, you know, some people are missing for, for the everyday soloist, which seems unfair.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's yeah. I don't even know it can happen. It's all I can say.
Speaker 1:Well, cool. I think that's, uh, that's an awesome place to leave it. Uh, max.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Um, you know, I guess just last thing would be like, is there anything else you wanna share with the audience or are you good to leave it at that Josh?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I've got nothing.
Speaker 2:Totally, man. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 4:I, I have no inspirational words
Speaker 2:That that's fair enough, you know, fair. Yeah. Um, yeah. You know, I just wanna say thanks so much for, you know, coming on and taking the time to talk to us and everything. And, uh, I think this has been a really powerful, impactful conversation. And, you know, I, I, I told you previously that I read, uh, your story while I was actually in the hospital and I found it really impactful. And um, you know, I'm sure there's lots of other people who, who are gonna feel the same. So yeah. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us today, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, same. Yeah.
Speaker 4:It was good chat.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Awesome man. Cool. Awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Thanks. So
Speaker 2:Think go here, but um, yeah. Wanna say, man, uh, you know, I wish you all the best with your recovery and everything like that. And uh, thanks for sharing your story today.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Hope continues to go well,
Speaker 1:Too. Thanks, man.
Speaker 2:Sweet. Yeah. Take
Speaker 1:Care, man. Have an.
