65 | The Sandstone Alpinist Part I w/ James Barrow

When you hear "Zion National Park," what comes to mind? The Narrows, Moonlight Buttress, and some of the most stunning sandstone cliffs and peaks you’ll ever see, all packed into a canyon visited by over five million people each year. But what about the possibilities beyond the main canyon, beyond the classic hikes and climbs?

Today, we’re chatting with James Barrow. He's a father, climber, and electrician by trade. James quickly developed a knack for climbing, finding himself leading sport climbs in the 5.12+ range in under six months. But, after rushing his progression, he seriously injured his tendons, which pushed him to find a new kind of challenge. That's when he turned to adventure climbing.

James fell in love with exploring the uncharted, runout, loose, and complicated sandstone peaks and plateaus surrounding the main area of Zion National Park. His latest achievement? The Complete Towers of the Virgin Traverse—a feat that covers 20 distinct peaks, with 18,500 feet of elevation gain over 28 miles. The terrain involves runouts, canyoneering, bushwhacking, steep snow travel, soloing, and massive 70-meter rappels using a fiddlestick. The climb, rated 5.9+R/M2R, is one of the most challenging and technical routes done in Zion in the last 20 years.

I can't emphasize enough the magnitude of what James and his partner accomplished. After our conversation, he walked me through his route on Google Earth. The complexity of route-finding, the massive scale, and the varied conditions of rock, snow, and thick bushes left me amazed.

We’ve split this conversation into two parts. Today, we'll hear about the events that led James to set his sights on this massive sandstone alpine linkup, and essentially shape him as a climber. This will help us understand him better when he tells the full story of "The Complete Towers of the Virgin Traverse" in part two. We'll talk about his rapid progression to 5.12+, how he found adventure climbing, his view on risk, and what he did to prepare for this big linkup.

Resources

James' Instagram

Local News

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:03
Unknown
Hey, everyone. Kyle here. Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast, where Max and I sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides and recreational climbers alike to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber. If you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:25:00 - 00:00:34:19
Unknown
When you hear Zion National Park, what comes to mind? The Narrows, Moonlight Buttress, and some of the most stunning sandstone cliffs and peaks you'll ever see

00:00:34:19 - 00:00:39:05
Unknown
all packed into a canyon visited by over 5 million people each year.

00:00:39:05 - 00:00:44:15
Unknown
But what about the possibilities beyond the main canyon, beyond the classic hikes and classic climbs?

00:00:44:15 - 00:00:46:09
Unknown
Today, we're chatting with James Barrow.

00:00:46:12 - 00:00:55:20
Unknown
He's a father, a climber and an electrician by trade. James quickly developed a knack for climbing, finding himself leading sport climbs in the 512 plus range in under six months.

00:00:55:20 - 00:01:04:09
Unknown
But after rushing his progression, he seriously injured his tendons, which pushed him to find a new kind of challenge. That's when he turned to adventure climbing.

00:01:04:09 - 00:01:13:12
Unknown
James fell in love with exploring the uncharted run out, loose and complicated sandstone peaks and plateaus surrounding the main area of Zion National Park.

00:01:13:14 - 00:01:14:20
Unknown
His latest achievement,

00:01:14:20 - 00:01:34:22
Unknown
The Complete Towers of the Virgin Traverse, a feat that covers over 20 distinct peaks with 18,500 feet of elevation gain over 28 miles. The terrain involves run outs, canyon earing bushwhack, steep snow, travel soloing and massive 70 meter repels using a fiddle stick.

00:01:34:22 - 00:01:44:04
Unknown
The climb rated at five nine plus r m2. R is one of the most challenging technical routes done in Zion in the past 20 years.

00:01:44:06 - 00:01:49:05
Unknown
Guys, I cannot emphasize enough just the magnitude of what James and his partner have accomplished.

00:01:49:05 - 00:02:00:16
Unknown
After our conversation, he walked me through his route on Google Earth. The complexity of finding the massive scale and the varied conditions of rock, snow and thick bushes left me just simply amazed.

00:02:00:16 - 00:02:04:19
Unknown
This is a long story, so we've split it up into two parts.

00:02:04:20 - 00:02:20:00
Unknown
Today we'll hear about the events that led James to set his sights on the massive sandstone alpine linkup and essentially what shaped him to be the climber he is today. It will help us understand him better when he tells the full story of the complete towers of the Virgin Traverse in part two.

00:02:20:00 - 00:02:24:14
Unknown
Today, we'll talk about his rapid progression to 512, plus how he found adventure

00:02:24:14 - 00:02:30:20
Unknown
climbing, his view on risk and what he did to prepare for this giant linkup.

00:02:42:14 - 00:02:48:09
Unknown
Yeah. Well, here, here's. Here's the

00:02:48:09 - 00:03:21:10
Unknown
thing for me. Here's my take on this particularly is the fact being that like, it's like, do you like I can you know, I can drink one soda or like a full burger and, like, you know, do just like you can if you do enough cardio, you can plow some food, man. And it's just like it's going to like, it'll burn off and it's supposed.

00:03:21:12 - 00:03:53:08
Unknown
Like, dude, I'm impressed. I have to say, I have to admit, I'm impressed. So. Nonetheless, you can still you can still count that. You know. You can still count that stuff. Yeah. And if you could put it down, I mean, if anything, that's particularly once you get to the like, if you particularly want to get to the higher end of things or like higher end of your whatever your limitations might be, then the fact that you can put those, because a big challenge for many people is the ability to put down calories like enough calories.

00:03:53:10 - 00:04:04:23
Unknown
Yeah, yeah.

00:04:05:01 - 00:05:20:04
Unknown
This is it is. Yeah. How old are you now? It's just called turning 30. Well, 32. And it's like, yeah, I, I know you're like, I need, I need recovery days. What? What are you talking about? I just. Yeah, a dude. I ordered a whole pizza, and I really wanted either 00100. It's like. It's like it's the one that, you know, like.

00:05:20:06 - 00:05:51:14
Unknown
Yeah, the greasier, the. Yeah. Or did you just. Just sleep in all night? You know, you stay in that immobility. Do you guys do mobility exercises prior to going to bed then. Yeah I do it like, like sit down.

00:05:51:16 - 00:06:11:07
Unknown
All right, let's go to this, first before we start. Another thing to possibly think about. Talk to your doctor about it. It's kind of like a thought about it is like, Well, you would probably now going to actually, like, exercise. Science is like, would compression socks help at all when it comes to keeping blood flow going so that you guys don't stiffen up as much?

00:06:11:09 - 00:08:11:23
Unknown
Yeah. that's all right. You can eat as many calories as you possibly can in. No, I just like the the answer is yes, because. Hey, Max, if you have a better perspective on life. Yeah, well, maybe the the sucky thing is that arthritis doesn't it doesn't get better. You maintain it. So really focusing on those mobility exercises.

00:08:12:01 - 00:08:58:08
Unknown
I'm not here. Did I hear he's like, Yeah, I invited you to my house and you, you come and insult me. I was like, It's pretty close to bedtime to start getting on those while we're recording, man Like that. But also, why don't you do. Yeah, dude. Powders on labs. Got the lights in place? Yeah, yeah. And the we got the Canadian come down all the way to Vegas.

00:09:03:05 - 00:10:10:02
Unknown
did make me nice and calm. no, it's. thank you very much. But I. Yeah. Well, yeah, there's. There's got to be someone else out there. Thank you much, brother. Yeah, He wasn't there. It was Michelle, please. On. Yeah. This story. Yeah. The complete, traverse of the towers of the Virgin. Yeah, it's such a word.

00:10:10:04 - 00:11:01:23
Unknown
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. Such a mouth. It's a mouthful. And, yeah, about approximately that. That's true. for sure I am. I'm a 27 year old guy. I have one kid and a wife. I've been married for about almost four and a half years now. Yeah, Work a full time job. I'm just like the climbing majority, you know?

00:11:01:23 - 00:11:25:10
Unknown
And nonetheless, so, you know, in my off time, I get out and I climb various really jazzy peaks and it's just a weird passion of mine. The, and I guess the I guess the only other thing to note is the other thing it takes up my time mostly, is either training or being an electrician as a full time gig.

00:11:25:12 - 00:12:24:14
Unknown
So yeah, based out of St George, Utah. So Southern, Southwest, Utah, I'm just a stone's throw from Arizona slash Nevada. Yeah. I mean, you can hit those three states in a matter of 30 minutes from where we live. Yeah. So as climbing for the last, let's see, almost seven years with a like a, like about a year and a half hiatus in there, in the near the beginning, most of that has been spent in Zion National Park, probably I would say a good 95% of it has been spent in that park, really kind of like having some passion projects and, you know, getting deep and dirty and the grit and bush so.

00:12:24:16 - 00:12:41:20
Unknown
you know, it's just like when, when I originally started climbing, you know, I was kind of like, you know, I started outside. Someone invited me to go. Someone, you know, someone just invited me to go climbing. I turned them down like, five different times. I said, No, I'm scared of heights. And, you know, they took me out.

00:12:41:20 - 00:13:10:14
Unknown
And ultimately first three times I said, This sucks, but I like hanging around people. And then eventually, you know, fourth time around, I was like, Wait a second, I might actually be hooked on this stuff and got hooked on it and within six months I was climbing, you know, five, 12 plus to not transport 512 plus sport in six months and bouldering about the 667, the muscles kept up, my tendons didn't.

00:13:10:15 - 00:13:28:22
Unknown
And so that's where that hiatus came in is ultimately I was quick to become very obsessive about it and do it a lot and ultimately injured myself in the process because I rushed too quick. You know, I was young. I was probably like 20, 21 at the time. So I had the Young Gun Fitness to be able to like really push the buttons on.

00:13:29:00 - 00:13:54:18
Unknown
I get really getting into climbing aggressively and from there, you know, I just had a lot of you know, I just hurt my tendons tremendously, get myself really over, you know, really nasty overuse injuries. Took a long hiatus from it. And during the hiatus, I was going, well, I still kind of I still want to climb. And from there I was introduced to kind of a more mountaineering style of climbing.

00:13:54:23 - 00:14:29:08
Unknown
And so I started, there's an individual named Don Gilman. He's an older guy who's is, it's probably his I think he's coming up in his mid-fifties now, but, yeah, he kind of took me under his wing and started bringing me up these, like, random low fifth slash kind of moderate, fifth class peaks, you know, kind of just showing me the reins of like, look at what else there is to define here, you know, And like, look at the you know, look at these, you know, places like, you know, up in the Pacific Northwest, in Alaska, and, you know, like, look what you can do.

00:14:29:08 - 00:14:53:06
Unknown
That's not just, you know, climb in single pitch sport. And I was like, wow, this is you know, this is what adventure is. And I got hooked on the adventure because I could still go out and climb while also while also still not really stressing out the injuries that I had, I had done to myself. And so, you know, it's like I'm not climbing hard.

00:14:53:07 - 00:15:10:22
Unknown
I'm still getting the same, you know, excitement that I was particularly getting from, you know, going through the process of our bouldering and sport climbing. And so through the process of that, I just kind of started getting hooked on on peaks. And from there I started, you know, I started looking and going, okay, well, how many peaks are there in this park?

00:15:11:02 - 00:15:32:03
Unknown
You know, I had done like three or four around the surrounding area. You know, I just, you know, I did something, you know, just like easier ones like Red Butte, Terrell Natural Dome, Zion Butte, Smithsonian's Butte. Just kind of like the surrounding, just like, low fat stuff. And then from there, I started going, Well, what is there to do?

00:15:32:05 - 00:16:10:07
Unknown
You know? And I started kind of get an account on the page, and I started directing my attention towards specifically starting to kind of like kind of create a tick list for myself and, you know, kind of the rest is history is eventually, you know, someone said, well, if you're really into if you're really into peak bagging, you know, there's this there's this traverse that was originally done in the late nineties called The Towers, the Virgin Shivers, which was hitting, you know, it was hitting West Temple and Sundial and then just hitting that range all the way from, you know, which we'll explain later by going from the West Temple to the altar sacrifice and

00:16:10:07 - 00:16:26:08
Unknown
then coming off that. And it's just kind of like, you know, you should you should, you know, like no one really goes up there that much, you know, except a handful of us. And usually got if you really want to do some real peak value design, that's the place to go. And I said sick. And then I saw the, you know, I saw the extended line of it.

00:16:26:08 - 00:16:42:19
Unknown
And I started going, well, you know, I started talking to the people that did the extended line, which is Mike Dunn and Arthur, let's go. I was talking to Mike Dunn about it and getting all his information. And I talked to Dan STI, which was one of the first essentially as back in the late nineties that did a lot of these.

00:16:42:21 - 00:17:10:14
Unknown
And I you know, I was like, what if you know, what if I would if I could piece together everything from, you know, the farthest left portion and then, you know, in this wash itself, you know, include all the technical peaks, you know, all the technical hard climbing that, you know, it'd been done, they'd been fired individually. But what how could I how could I piece these all together?

00:17:10:15 - 00:17:30:05
Unknown
And once, you know, it's, it, it seems really ambitious and I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it, but like, what's like, you know, let's find a good partner and, you know, pitch this idea and, like, give it a good shot, you know, And on the on the second attempt, we were able to really make it and get it done.

00:17:30:07 - 00:18:01:15
Unknown
Of course. Yeah. Not, not a chance. Now I, I'm naturally light. Yeah. I'm only you know, he said I'm only £135. It's really, you know, if someone wants to try to outdo me in pullups, you know, it's like I don't, you know, that's, that's something that comes easy when it comes to climbing because, you know, I don't weigh that much.

00:18:01:17 - 00:18:36:19
Unknown
Gravity's not really fighting me the same way. It is like you tall guys. Yeah, I'm more I'm I'm truly more impressed when someone that is of taller stature or heavier stature climbs things that I also can climb. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so when it comes to climbing, it's just kind of like, okay, my muscles don't really have to.

00:18:36:21 - 00:18:51:04
Unknown
They don't have to train that hard to pull up that much weight. And so it's just like I just had, you know, it's the reason why I comp kids coming across your projects. You know, it's just like, dude, they, they weigh as much as a bag of feathers do. And that's the reason why they can climb these hard things.

00:18:51:06 - 00:19:27:20
Unknown
Exactly. And so it's just like I yeah, they're tremendously talented, but that plays a very strong role in why they're able to progress at such an amazing level is like, that's a huge factor. And I think that just played into my factor is just like using, you know using what I was genetically given allowed me to be able to progress quicker than maybe some have been able to do so, but at the detriment of my tendons in the case because, you know, my you know, my tendons really, you know, aside from people like Chris Sharma, which were climbing 514 like the first two years, you know, there's

00:19:27:20 - 00:19:43:12
Unknown
is like you said like your muscles were training fascinator tendons and to my to my understanding is that your tendons actually take longer to get stronger like maybe max like educate us a little bit on like the time frame for someone that might be like, hey, I'm like actually

00:19:43:12 - 00:20:05:20
Unknown
Yeah. I think there's, like, so many considerations, and there's no, like, hard set limit, but essentially, like, you're muscle, your muscles are highly vascularized, so you have tons of blood, you have tons of protein going into your muscles, whereas your tendons are not. So they're going to take way more time to like, you know, lay down and adapt and get thicker and become more resilient.

00:20:05:20 - 00:20:29:13
Unknown
So you get this situation where exactly, you know, it's what's happened to you. You get way stronger. You can crank super, super hard, but your tendons aren't ready for that boom. You tear your tendons, you get micro injuries, you have all these problems, you end up with injured people and then you end up with chronic injuries. Right. I think like if you listen to coaches like Eric Haas, for example, like you got to be really careful with like kids, like, hey, warning, you know, it's like so popular now, it'd be like training super hard.

00:20:29:13 - 00:20:59:17
Unknown
But it's like kids who are growing, they have their growth plates like you can damage your tendons, you can damage your growth plates. So there's so many caveats. But at least for myself as well, like something I've noticed is like we're so focused on trying to improve as fast as humanly possible. And sometimes, like if you almost view it like a stock exchange, for example, is like it's not better to have 1,000% growth and then to completely like, you know, you know, like bare market, just like tanked everything.

00:20:59:17 - 00:21:17:20
Unknown
You know, it's way better to have slow, linear, progressive growth continuous year over year over year. And sometimes that means like clawing back your ambition in your capacity so you can like have time to adapt to the stimulus. Right? And like, that's like the difference between like external load, which is like what you can

00:21:17:20 - 00:21:30:17
Unknown
well, at this point.

00:21:30:19 - 00:22:28:00
Unknown
But it's it transition me into trad climbing so I almost I sport climb a little bit now but you know that's like my 10% you know out of I major really I only pretty much trad climb when it comes to rocks. I pretty much only try climbing because it, it really puts a a much lower load on the ones that I have already that I still to this day have struggle with, you know just just like you guys have, you know, like those continuous ankle issues for the rest of my, my my life.

00:22:28:00 - 00:23:43:14
Unknown
Ultimately, I'll have some type of nagging elbow issues and that's just that is okay. And then, you know, I, I think is the difference or like yeah I think I could still the same answer that is like I can climb harder drag than I can sport and that's just simply because of the techniques that I'm comfortable with. so yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:23:43:16 - 00:24:03:18
Unknown
Yes, that would be, that would be really when, you know, I went from like, you know, because like when I took that hiatus, it really was going from, you know, like I still not getting out that much. You know, I was kind of really, you know, I kind of prioritized careers at that point in time. And I was like, you know, I'm so injured, like, it hurts all the time.

00:24:03:18 - 00:24:37:09
Unknown
And then I was like, wait, I kind of want to pick this. I want to kind of pick this back up and, you know, started getting into trad big walling and, you know, did a did a couple of did a couple of big walls or more. So just really tall multi pitches. You know, we were talking like seven, nine pitches or whatever, you know, just did a couple of those and I said, you know, I'm really into this, you know, so and then I was like, How can I mix this with the, like proud adventure side of this is like, you know, like I respect the process.

00:24:37:11 - 00:25:04:22
Unknown
I understand the process, especially from the, you know, the short time that I really spent sport climbing. You know, I respect it, but it's no longer what drives me for that. And what drives me is the adventure. And so getting on these more obscure big wall routes that commonly have certain hazards at plays like the Northeast, Buttress is technically an hour slash x rated route.

00:25:05:00 - 00:25:32:10
Unknown
You know, when I first started that, I got with a you know, I the partner that I actually did go on this traverse with, I was really young young guy Connor Batey which is is 21 now but being said he was like 19 at the time and you know, just had a, you know, he when he came in as a comp kid and such and so forth and you know from his single digits of age, you know, came in really strong, came and as I said, where do I go to climb?

00:25:32:10 - 00:25:47:16
Unknown
And I was like, Dude, come with me. Let's go have some fun rope gun, You know, just shoot a gouge. I just shut the rope gun up and I saw it being said is like I'm still kind of getting in there. So initially at that time, I wasn't on that route specifically. I wasn't climbing terribly hard like I could.

00:25:47:16 - 00:26:04:17
Unknown
I could fall. You know, it was 511 hour slash ax. So it's like I was like, okay, cool. I can follow 511. It doesn't matter how run it out it is. If I can shooting, you know, shoot the rope gun up and it. Exactly. And so, you know, we climbed up that it was you know, there's a coming heat wave.

00:26:04:17 - 00:26:35:08
Unknown
It was in the middle of the summer is in August you know and set. Yeah it was also like so that means we have to climb it fast. And so we ended up we ended up climbing it in just under 6 hours. It was, you know, it's what is it, a 1500 foot route and things that is attentively not putting bravado And I'm I'm pretty sure nowadays like we could climb it probably like in half the time, you know with with with the partnership and the training that's come with it.

00:26:35:10 - 00:27:03:13
Unknown
But the you know, that was like my entry in the big walling truly was that route was really like when you get on that route, there's no retreat off of it. The the the way that you know and there's when you start going up in the ropes, the rope lengths of the pitches are too long to undo and there or there to traversing which they do both they both traverse and then also are too long to ultimately even double rope propel.

00:27:03:15 - 00:27:33:08
Unknown
And so with that in play, you know it's just kind of like I know I'm being really long winded on this front as being said as that was kind of introduction of like, I really need to push my chad kids to really unlock, you know, like national parks tend to just have really stout grading. So it's just like I'm really locking myself away by not being physically stronger to take on these adventurous walls.

00:27:33:10 - 00:27:55:07
Unknown
So that one specifically, I did follow up that one specifically, but I've done since, you know, like, you know, weirdly enough, you know, I just like primarily since, you know, it's just like majority of the climbing that I have done. You know, when you when you seek adventure, it tends to come out. It comes with run outs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:27:55:09 - 00:28:35:23
Unknown
So I the if I was to take it off of what I've said so far in the mike, I'd say they're very correlated. the, I would say being said is with the proper training, you know, like being that is, there's, there's no, there's no way to completely prevent hazardous things from happening, you know, I mean I've had really deep conversations and on the regular I make sure that it's regular to have with, you know, with my wife that it's just like there's potential for things to happen.

00:28:36:01 - 00:28:56:23
Unknown
And obviously with us having a kid, you know, it's just like one of the steps if this you know, these things take place, you know, But to mitigate that to my best ability, you know, it's just like, you know, luck is fantastic. Luck is on your side when you you train for it. You so you're physically fit. You're mentally fit, you know, self rescue.

00:28:57:03 - 00:29:18:18
Unknown
You know, you use the National Park Service rescue. Sorry. You don't even consider it a possibility. You go, I need to go at all costs, you know, even if it requires staying overnight, like to really just like stay calm when it comes to situations and understand like, you know, as the classic kind of factors. Like in most cases, you're really not as screwed as you think you are.

00:29:18:20 - 00:29:45:19
Unknown
You know, if you really mental if you let yourself mentally spiral, then, you know, adventures can become a nightmare real fast. And so the I would say adventures are something that are particularly, you know, there's something to be able to tell stories about their be able to something to be rather memorable, rather unique. And those things tend to be rather unraveled.

00:29:45:23 - 00:30:09:05
Unknown
And things that are rather, traveled tend to carry a lot of risk. And so ultimately the reason they possibly come hand in hand together is the fact being of it's so drawing to go to these places kind of as you know this explorer in a sense to really kind of experience, you know, something that many people don't particularly have the opportunity to do.

00:30:09:05 - 00:30:41:08
Unknown
So And that comes with just really, you know, just unmanaged terrain. And and that kind of terrain is just it commonly is too much risk for most people to accept. And so, you know, through these times is, you know, it's just like, you know, it's like from what is this like three years ago, you know, like top rope in my way up an x rated route and kind of being like, wow, we sent that really X rated route.

00:30:41:08 - 00:31:00:15
Unknown
And he's like, like, no, I did. And I was like, Yes, you did. You know, to now being, you know, now being confident enough to where the majority of the climbs that I do are actually R-rated and run out simply because of the, the biome that I particularly partake my activity in. More so than anything. It's not it's not that it particularly you know, it's partially a lie.

00:31:00:15 - 00:31:22:16
Unknown
You know I think there's a sense being of like there is something attractive about run out routes and that's its own thing. But, you know, just the objectives that I put myself in just tend to have that misnomer, like misnomer that or I guess that, you know, that that subtext that it is it's normally going to be run out for what it is.

00:31:22:18 - 00:31:47:10
Unknown
And so it's just like, yeah, since then it's just like, okay, that's cool. That's the majority of what I lead. And with that, you know, with training and, you know, mainly a, a good mental head game to understand that there are these risks in being realistic and kind of going and it's something I still work on to this day, you know, I mean like I'm, I'm not like invaluable, you know, I still get asked to get on stuff and be like, this is fucking scary.

00:31:47:12 - 00:32:05:03
Unknown
Yeah. Like, I, you know, but it's that's not going to help me right now. You know, if you're because the thing is, like, once you get past 50 feet with lead out, you're like, okay, what's 80 feet? Because at that point you're bouncing. Yeah, you're bouncing down the hill and you're going to get fucked up or die. And so it's just like, What's 80 feet?

00:32:05:03 - 00:32:21:04
Unknown
Not that I'm trying to go an extra 30 feet, but at that point it's just kind of like, okay, I could freak out here at the 50 feet, let out and take a hundred foot whip or like, it's going to it's going to hurt me, but so is 160 footer. And so get this get this remaining 30 feet away.

00:32:21:06 - 00:33:11:13
Unknown
And I still have to tell myself that, you know, I'll get up there and be like, you, you. Yeah. It demands that you put chips on the table.

00:33:11:13 - 00:33:31:02
Unknown
that is like, you know, it's kind of like I think Jonathan Siegrist, like, alluded to this where it's like in life usually things that you put more effort into, there's more reward and risk essentially is not like directly physical effort, but like it's psychological effort to deal with that arduous situation and like the psychology of it and putting

00:33:31:02 - 00:33:52:04
Unknown
your life on the line. And so when you do have more risk, there's more effort and so there's more reward out of the situation. You feel more fulfilled, you feel more satisfied. But then the caveat to that is that risk is completely a subjective experience that, you know, like your your sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system is going to be like, you know, integrating to like have that experience.

00:33:52:04 - 00:33:57:02
Unknown
So, for example, like if I climb, if I solo a ten and Alex Honnold solo a

00:33:57:02 - 00:34:04:11
Unknown
but, you know, like, it's like,

00:34:04:11 - 00:34:13:22
Unknown
what's the point? I don't up

00:35:29:20 - 00:36:05:14
Unknown
And how, how aware of the real risk are you actually like aware of like I think like you kind of just alluded to is like before your accident and now it's like while you are staunchly aware of the, the consequences of failure and you're still performing with that information in your brain and so like, like it's just like you said, like, I think that's just a it's interesting thing that I've learned is like pre and post accident like different headspace like the reality of like what can go wrong is so much more real

00:37:20:08 - 00:37:55:02
Unknown
I can approach that in a second. One thing I do want to approach is to tie like put a bow on that. Last thing you're talking about is nuance. Kind of a funny irony in itself and I think it is, you know, mental training is an almost kind of a, you know almost kind of a way to introduce that hardening to, you know, like ignorance is the wrong word, desensitization to risk, because I'll jump on something that seems extremely or maybe is really risky to many people, but at the same time, I

00:37:55:02 - 00:38:16:16
Unknown
can jump on a really like safe sport climb that's overhanging, has some exposure, and I'm terrified. There's most people that are taken like, you know, they're like, Dude, you're like a foot above the bolt. And I'm like, I'm freaking out right now. And it's because I'm not particularly I'm not mentally trained and not as physically trained when it comes to harder sport climbing.

00:38:16:18 - 00:38:43:03
Unknown
So when I jump on a hard 11 or like a I, you know, a low 12, you know, when I go climbing on on sport, then I'm much more uncomfortable and out of my element. And so therefore I'm not I'm much more sensitive to that risk, even though I'm in a much safer environment and in almost extreme, you know, like just in a much safer environment where if I took the fall, it's perfectly fine, but I'm slightly on overdrive going.

00:38:43:03 - 00:39:04:13
Unknown
I'm about to take a four foot whip, I'm going to die, and nothing's going to happen. And I can tell myself that nothing's going to happen to me, you know, or, you know, very unlikely that it's going to happen to me. And because I haven't particularly trained a lot in that environment, I find myself in certain safe climbing environments, especially on overhangs, you know, where weakness of mine is exposure.

00:39:04:15 - 00:39:41:05
Unknown
Ironically, you know, like when I'm on the side, Cliff, like if I feel like I'm standing strong, like not not a problem. But when it comes to being on overhangs where I can feel gravity really pulling on me, I can feel myself being pretty concerned about my location, even though the risk is extremely lower. And so because I have trained in this environment, but not in this environment, ultimately, you know, it's like I'm not desensitized to the risk of sport climbing, but I am more so desensitized from training in the realm of run out slide climb.

00:39:41:07 - 00:40:04:19
Unknown
Yeah, very much so. And so, you know, I think I think many, you know, look at, you know, adventure climbers is like these really desensitized people that like, you know, they can logically look at risk and like, you know, they, you know, all forms of a lot of forms of climbing are, you know, you can rationalize all of that and not be scared, especially in the safe climbing.

00:40:04:21 - 00:40:48:05
Unknown
But I almost never do it. So it's pretty scary to me. I'll still go out and do it. And I know that I can actually put it together and like I will push myself to take falls nowadays. But it's not like it's not my my ammo to go out and, you know, I'm not going to inherently feel comfortable in that safe.

00:40:48:07 - 00:41:07:15
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, I've taken a I've taken a couple of dangerous landfalls, thankfully broken, no bones. And like I say, usually there's a lot of bushes in the way, so you just get scratched to shit on. But specifically one of the one of the closer calls and we'll talk about a closer call later as we're talking on the Traverse.

00:41:07:15 - 00:41:34:22
Unknown
That was probably one of my closest calls. But early in my, my climbing endeavors, when I was really obsessed with pushing grades, you know, I was really a grade pusher, you know, just in the early, you know, getting obsessed with that in the first six months of climbing on, you know, it's hot and sweaty in the desert. And it's, you know, as it was pushing about 100 and even, you know, even five elevens are really hard when it's slimy and we're climbing on basalt.

00:41:35:00 - 00:41:54:05
Unknown
I, I pulled out rope to clip just a little bit to the you know, I had slightly gone off route. I pulled out that, you know, that extra four or five feet that your arm gives you. And I blew the clip. My hand slipped right off the rock, you know, And I took you know, I took like near a 30 foot fall.

00:41:54:11 - 00:42:11:13
Unknown
And the problem with that was the fact being that the climb was only 35 feet tall. And so I took a whip. And thankfully, the dude, you know, thankfully my Blair was fantastic. It absolutely just ran off the ledge behind me. Otherwise, I probably would have hit the ground and I probably wouldn't be having the conversation with you guys right now.

00:42:11:13 - 00:42:34:13
Unknown
You know what? You know, because I probably wouldn't be climbing if I lived. I probably wouldn't be a climber on is the fact being that I got caught and then I stood up on the ground and I was like, everyone's like, Are you okay? I'm like, Yeah, I'm fine. But it hit me like a rock. Not that same day, but the next time I went out climbing and I went to pull rope out to clip, I'm like, like, I'm like, choking up.

00:42:34:18 - 00:42:56:13
Unknown
And that's something that's the reason my exposure bothers me, you know, exposure and overhangs for planning. You know, you look back on this weird little you know, there's weird little things that kind of like nagging in your head, telling you, like, you know, you're not quite safe, but, you know, but you'll have the people around you being like, Dude, overhanging climb is like the safest thing you've ever done.

00:42:56:18 - 00:43:39:20
Unknown
Free hanging, falling, like, no worries. Blow the clip. Like skip clips. Yeah. And I. Yeah, know, because like I said, I've take dingers down slabs and, like, eating in bushes and trees. Like said, there is two situations on this traverse we'll chat about that were like kind of messed up and the but I'm walking away like I'm perfectly fine from those situations.

00:43:39:20 - 00:44:26:03
Unknown
Weirdly enough you know, maybe they're subconsciously sitting somewhere around in there, but exactly Yeah. And yeah yeah, yeah. Just so the question doesn't get lost, particularly for me. Logistics planning for prepping in the morning. So I look at it, I make sure I know my route. I know what gear I have, I look over what I have and then, you know, I, you know, you do it enough.

00:44:26:03 - 00:45:14:22
Unknown
It becomes a quick process. You know? Yes. You control what you can and then truly enjoy the fact that you can go into an environment and be the thing that small be the thing that doesn't control everything. I mean, that's one of the most beautiful things about going out to these locations, and that's one of the drawing things about this traverse that we're going to talk about the fact that you can go out and maroon yourself out and these, you know, pieces like this environment and just feel small feel insignificant and adjust, You know, when you come on with these mountains, you know, people talk about conquering mountains.

00:45:15:02 - 00:45:36:03
Unknown
We don't conquer mountains. We go up there and we visit, you know, we visit mountains. We don't conquer them because, you know, like, I can't go up there and live up there. You know, it's like I can go up there for few minutes, maybe a few hours, maybe a day, you know, like, say, where, you know, and I'm not exactly.

00:45:36:06 - 00:45:42:19
Unknown
And to say that I conquered it, that's that's just that's just not you just lying

00:45:44:23 - 00:45:51:09
Unknown
If you've been enjoying the climbing majority, please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:45:52:01 - 00:45:56:08
Unknown
so I think we kind of talked about like, you know control and preparation.

00:45:56:08 - 00:46:19:22
Unknown
So, you know, like for yourself here, what was the catalyst for taking on this task And then also like maybe if you can like give like the 30,000 foot overview of like how did you prepare for this? What were the considerations for, you know, the gear you took, the weight of your gear, you know, all of these kind of fine details to set up what it's like to actually take on an

00:46:19:22 - 00:46:32:10
Unknown
So part of the first attempt was to simply think what we could, you know, like, let's piece together, like what do we normally need?

00:46:32:13 - 00:46:55:02
Unknown
What is one of the routes, normally what is, what is the route beta demand, What can we slim off a little bit Like what is our comfort level. Allow us to just kind of chip a little bit away, like, you know, throw a one. you know, maybe we only need one number to meet that. He takes it and so yeah.

00:46:55:02 - 00:47:17:11
Unknown
And, and so from there, you know, you look at what those demands are and you go, okay, how can we slim that down just a little bit? We've never been there. Let's, let's, let's give it a shot and like not go to lay on this. And then on our first attempt, like, let's see how it goes, you know, and then, you know, we'll probably fail and then we can really hone in from there.

00:47:17:13 - 00:47:42:13
Unknown
But when it comes down to is, you know you know foods along thing I'm no professional being said is as an outdoor person you commonly know what makes you feel good and what makes you feel like crap when you're eating it for four days in a row, you know? And so and you're always, you know, you're always packing an extra day or two on that.

00:47:42:15 - 00:48:10:09
Unknown
Yeah. So when we succeeded, we were burning around 3 to 4000 calories a day. We're a wild deficit. I was eating I was eating a bagel with like half a stick of veggie butter each morning. And then over the day, I would eat. I just lived off kind bars and gummies, and I had, like, these little these little pair cups because they're they're just packed full of sugar.

00:48:10:11 - 00:48:32:17
Unknown
And then was it Snickers bars And then just so I'm not like fully carb shotting myself with the junk food, you know, I was eating just like that Costco Kirkland jerky, you know, really took me a long way, just eating strips here and there because you can't you can't eat too many at one time because you just got bomb in the crap out of yourself if you do.

00:48:32:19 - 00:49:06:11
Unknown
And then really you and then really sending it home at dinner, you know, you're settled down. You're not physically pushing yourself, really sending it home at dinner to just like, just like posture, owning dishes like, like really quick boil pasta with, like spice packets, a crapload assault and throwing like a tuna salmon packet on top of that and yeah, whatever, like, whatever, like little bagged meat you can throw in there.

00:49:06:11 - 00:49:33:23
Unknown
Just a really add on to the protein load just so you can go in the food coma at night. Yeah. And like kind of regenerate from there. Yeah. Water. So that was, that was distinctively why we chose to go in March. So the high desert's a very like unique place in a sense, being that it snows there because you're at like seven, 8000 feet most of the time in elevation, you know, or like high sevens.

00:49:34:01 - 00:50:12:23
Unknown
But yeah, so anywhere from 6500 to about 8000 feet is where you're kind of floating around for elevation. So during the winter it's still getting a healthy amount of snow. And so being said is you go going in March, you know, you're looking at a gallon of water, weighs close to £8 or like two kilos. And so, you know, you're like, I want to purify I like I want to filter and boil as much water is physically possible and going and going, okay, how much can I you know, how much snow can I climb while keeping the inconvenience of climbing in snow at bay?

00:50:12:23 - 00:50:34:05
Unknown
You know, like post hauling takes a lot of effort. Climbing snow takes a lot more effort than climbing a rock. You know, it just physically it's just for you know, it's just so much more effort because of all the high stepping and just like keeping yourself warm. And from then through that, just all that kind of terrain, but having enough of it to where I can access a lot of water pretty freely and easily.

00:50:34:05 - 00:51:41:23
Unknown
So that's why we chose the beginning middle of March, you know, that's where that weather window is, to be able to save tremendous amounts of weight. That is very true. Being that is when we were on, you know, we were on the, you know, some in some points, it really was an inconvenience. But that comes with the balance of, you know, like when we were on the when we're on the sundial on, which is about like 900 feet worth of climbing, we were able to solo about 500 feet of it because a lot of the times you you can kick step, you know, kick stabbing you just like cool a staircase.

00:51:42:01 - 00:52:18:19
Unknown
This is great, you know? Yeah. Okay. A little bit of shin pump for a staircase. Hell, yeah. I'll take that. You know, so it's just like you get, you know, three or 400 feet of that climb is just like, really easy standard, deep snow climbing, you know? And then you're looking at the battery, also a sacrifice. It's, you know, same thing as just like you get it easy, easy kick stepping up there and then coming down off of coming off of, you know, Rotten tooth, which is one of the other peaks being said is with the snow, we don't have to worry about all these steep clifftop obstacles, you know, on this north side.

00:52:18:21 - 00:52:39:06
Unknown
It's just a nice good old slide down it so you can like listen, some of it being set so you save a bunch of effort by just simply glistening down, you know, you know between stepping down that or and then being said is with deeper snow you can get there's certain really steep grade cliffs that you can get really close to that.

00:52:39:06 - 00:53:02:01
Unknown
You know, obviously not avalanche terrain wise, but you can get into these steep you know, you can get on these steep slopes by kicking your legs down into this snow and it's going to hold you there like a frickin statue. Like, I'm not going to fall off this cliff because the snow is not letting me go anywhere. I have to try to throw myself off this cliff because the snow is deep enough I can make closer repels to the edge of certain cliffs.

00:53:02:03 - 00:53:30:11
Unknown
Whereas if I was, you know, if it was there was no snow up there, it would be slippery, really sketchy to get to some of the trees that we were trying to get a hold of, to be able to repel as close as we could to certain edges. Yeah, I was probably around yes, around two weeks about, you know, depending on the season.

00:53:30:11 - 00:54:06:20
Unknown
So like this year and last year, the windows have been much more open because it's been so darn wet. You know, y you know, 2023 was simply the amount of the amount of the season was so darn open with snow that we went way too early and we got ourselves too much snow. And this season is allowed for it to be probably around, you know, about a three week window and in the entire year the snow condition, because you either have too much snow or not enough snow and you can probably push it, but now you're banking on certain water sources.

00:54:06:22 - 00:54:27:11
Unknown
And so it's just you start yeah, you start you could do you could probably push it out by a month and still complete it. But you're really pushing certain margins, such as being you'll have to carry water, you know, or on the other end of it closer to the winter you're going to have to frickin post all like no other.

00:54:27:13 - 00:54:47:15
Unknown
And so both take a lot more physical effort to do so, to be able to, you know, to be able to do something that was, you know, really hard for us in the first place. You know, now you're just putting unnecessary obstacles. So the prime window is about two weeks, you know, which would be the which would be the second and third week of March.

00:54:47:17 - 00:55:19:09
Unknown
Because of that, the just those snow levels being primarily the driving factor. Yeah. So like if, if, if March turned over and had not started it, I would say we're doing it next year. Yeah. Yeah.

00:55:19:09 - 00:55:30:08
Unknown
light in, like, a very positive and very adventurous light. But there's also, like, this this sense of suffering and adventure and, like, risk and not a lot of people are going to sign up for this.

00:55:30:10 - 00:55:35:10
Unknown
So, like a talk to us about like, you know, how did you find a partner that was

00:55:35:10 - 00:55:49:04
Unknown
you know, kind of the world's weird and it gives you certain specific opportunities. I remember I, you know, I took a stint at college for, for a few semesters, and I saw a guy in my biology lab.

00:55:49:04 - 00:56:11:21
Unknown
I said, You have a track piece on your t shirt. We need to go climbing and so we went out and instant friends. And from there, you know, he had just happened to have a lot of heavy experience in the realm that I wanted to go into. And he, he tends to, you know, drive for the same, if not more.

00:56:11:21 - 00:56:36:01
Unknown
Honestly, the guy's a damn monster, you know, just yeah, you know, as as we speak. And last and last week, I mean he ran the Zion 100 and got second place. He's not an ultra runner. He's not a proclaimed ultra runner. And he still hit podium. I mean, he's just a he's one of those people that I don't know if it's just from the way that he's been raised that's led him up to being able to do substantial athletic feats.

00:56:36:01 - 00:56:57:08
Unknown
I mean, he sold his solo aided the majority of these big wall, you know, these big eight wall routes in Zion. I mean, he just has a resume that's amazing. And he's just, you know, one of those silent crushers out there that really doesn't like to brag about what he does. So I'll brag for him. Now, Connor Baity, you're badass.

00:56:57:10 - 00:56:58:15
Unknown
The

00:56:58:17 - 00:57:15:16
Unknown
and he's is, is a particular opposite of me. So I'm really logistics focused on and like, you know, like navigation and gear and, you know, I'm okay, you know, like the bush pitches come up and I'm just like, yeah, I'll dive into I'm like, cool.

00:57:15:16 - 00:57:43:23
Unknown
You know? And, you know, he's very athletically inclined and when it comes to it comes in, the more know the very endurance sport based like you know the guy knows how to hit the pain cave, you know and like you know another example is like the dude biked from Saint George to the north rim of the Grand Canyon and then did rim to rim and then biked back, you know, and being said it.

00:57:44:00 - 00:58:06:21
Unknown
So I guess for reference, it's like I think it's like two or 300 miles of biking to go from Saint George to the north rim and then doing the north rim like say the rim to rim rim or, you know, and such and then coming back for, for Yeah, for, for fun whatever it is and again Yeah. And he said, he said yeah he said it, it was awful.

00:58:06:21 - 00:58:22:20
Unknown
And I was like why did you do it. He's like, I don't because I felt compelled and I was like, that's exactly the you know, it's exactly the partners that you kind of need for, you know, it's just something that, you know, something, you know, particularly inspires him to take on these endeavors the same way it inspires me.

00:58:22:20 - 00:58:44:11
Unknown
You know, whatever his reality is when it comes to suffering, I just happened to luckily fall upon him to just, you know, we started, you know, you know, we started hitting big walls and, you know, just like I said, I told you about, like, how I didn't like exposure. So the best way to get on exposed walls is to go, you know what?

00:58:44:11 - 00:59:07:03
Unknown
If I was only exposed for 3 hours, I could just climb walls really fast. And so I only have to be scared for 3 hours. Cool. You know? So. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm tweaking out, but I'm only. It's not that long. If I could push myself through it, You know, granted, it's gotten better since. But, you know, he, he helped me push through that.

00:59:07:05 - 00:59:26:15
Unknown
And so being that is it made a really close partnership through that big walling prior to this trip and that that endurance sports background that you know he built for himself allowed for this to be you know, him to be like an easy first choice for me to take on this traverse.

00:59:28:02 - 00:59:44:11
Unknown
That's it for today's episode, everybody. I want to extend a huge thank you to James for driving down from St George to do this recording for us in person. And thank you listeners for tuning in. If you've enjoyed the episode, please don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast. Plus, if you're interested in watching this episode, please check us out on YouTube.

00:59:44:22 - 00:59:57:00
Unknown
Stay tuned for our next episode, where James dives into the detailed story of his incredible climb, The complete towers of the Virgin Traverse. You definitely don't want to miss it. Until then, keep exploring. Stay safe and as always, happy climbing.