Warning: this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence that might not be suitable for all audiences, especially children. If you're not in a space to listen to this content, please consider saving this episode for another time.
On May 28th of 2018, Chad O’Melia was brutally stabbed to death in his own home by his girlfriend Bryn Spejcher after they had smoked marijuana together. The state-appointed forensic psychologist on the case, Kris Mohandie, wrote in a 37-page report that Spejcher appeared “possessed” and proceeded to repeatedly stab herself and her own dog despite being tasered multiple times. It wasn’t until the ninth blow from a police officer’s steel baton that the police were able to stop her.. She was arrested on scene and released on bail shortly afterward.
Now I am sure you all have seen the social media posts, and news articles that have recently come out…but if you haven’t… last Tuesday after almost 6 years …. the court finally sentenced Spejcher… to two years of probation and 100 hours of community service ... .for stabbing a man to 108 times... The court's argument here was that after smoking marijuana, Spejcher entered a state of acute marijuana induced psychosis, and therefore had no control over her actions that night.
Today we revisit this tragic incident through the eyes of our previous guest Mike Tagg, rock climber and O’Melia’s roommate.. Mike was in the house that night, and we are resharing his personal account of what happened.
As you listen to this episode, we invite you to reflect…Do you feel that a person in a state of psychosis should be held accountable for their actions?
Do you feel…as stated by Chad’s father that “the court just gave everyone in the state of California who smokes marijuana a license to kill”.
Lastly, Mike shares how his relationship with the sport of climbing allowed him to process the trauma and rebuild a sense of control over his own safety.
Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.
Contact us:
IG: @the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com
Warning: this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence that might not be suitable for all audiences, especially children. If you're not in a space to listen to this content, please consider saving this episode for another time.
On May 28th of 2018, Chad O’Melia was brutally stabbed to death in his own home by his girlfriend Bryn Spejcher after they had smoked marijuana together. The state-appointed forensic psychologist on the case, Kris Mohandie, wrote in a 37-page report that Spejcher appeared “possessed” and proceeded to repeatedly stab herself and her own dog despite being tasered multiple times. It wasn’t until the ninth blow from a police officer’s steel baton that the police were able to stop her.. She was arrested on scene and released on bail shortly afterward.
Now I am sure you all have seen the social media posts, and news articles that have recently come out…but if you haven’t… last Tuesday after almost 6 years …. the court finally sentenced Spejcher… to two years of probation and 100 hours of community service ... .for stabbing a man to 108 times... The court's argument here was that after smoking marijuana, Spejcher entered a state of acute marijuana induced psychosis, and therefore had no control over her actions that night.
Today we revisit this tragic incident through the eyes of our previous guest Mike Tagg, rock climber and O’Melia’s roommate.. Mike was in the house that night, and we are resharing his personal account of what happened.
As you listen to this episode, we invite you to reflect…Do you feel that a person in a state of psychosis should be held accountable for their actions?
Do you feel…as stated by Chad’s father that “the court just gave everyone in the state of California who smokes marijuana a license to kill”.
Lastly, Mike shares how his relationship with the sport of climbing allowed him to process the trauma and rebuild a sense of control over his own safety.
Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.
Contact us:
IG: @the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:27:06
Unknown
Hey, everyone. Kyle here. Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast or maximized sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides and recreational climbers alike to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber. If you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:27:07 - 00:00:56:01
Unknown
Welcome back, everybody. Today we're going to do something a little different. I need to start with a clear warning. This episode contains graphic descriptions of violence that might not be suitable for all audiences, especially children. If you're not in the space to listen to this content, please consider saving this episode for another time. On May 28th of 2018, Chad Amelia was brutally stabbed to death in his own home by his girlfriend, Brynn Spitzer, after they had smoked marijuana together.
00:00:56:03 - 00:01:27:14
Unknown
The state appointed forensic psychologist on the case, Chris Mohandie, wrote in a 37 page report that Spicher appeared, quote unquote, possessed and proceeded to repeatedly stab herself and her own dog despite being tasered multiple times. It wasn't until the ninth blow from a police officer's steel baton that the police were able to finally stop her. She was arrested on scene and released on bail shortly afterward.
00:01:27:16 - 00:02:01:23
Unknown
Now, I'm sure that you've all seen the social media posts and news articles that have recently come out. But if you haven't. Last Tuesday, after almost six years, the court finally sentenced Spitzer to two years of probation and 100 hours of community service for stabbing a man 108 times. The court's argument here was that after smoking marijuana, Spitzer entered a state of acute marijuana induced psychosis and therefore had no control over her actions that night.
00:02:02:01 - 00:02:26:19
Unknown
Today, we revisit this tragic accident through the eyes of our previous guest, Mike Tagg, Rock climber and Amelia's roommate. Mike was in the house that night and we are Resharing his personal account of what happened. As you listen to this episode, we invite you to reflect. Do you feel that a person in a state of psychosis should be held accountable for their actions?
00:02:26:21 - 00:02:52:08
Unknown
Do you feel, as stated by Chad's father that quote the court just gave everybody in the state of California who smokes marijuana a license to kill? Lastly, Mike shares how his relationship with the sport of climbing allowed him to process the trauma and rebuild a sense of control over his own safety. A final reminder, the content ahead is graphic and might be disturbing.
00:02:52:10 - 00:03:27:20
Unknown
Please enjoy the show and our comment. There's a second part to the story here. You know, we've gotten into kind of how you found climbing. We've gotten into kind of where you're going with climbing. There was an incident that kind of happened pretty, pretty recently after you found climbing, if I'm not correct. Tell us a little bit about that and kind of how climbing helped you get through it.
00:03:27:21 - 00:03:54:12
Unknown
Sure. Yeah, I know I am. So I've been climbing for about a year at this point in my career. I was comfortable, like top roping. I had just started to get into Trad and I was really starting to fall in love with the sport. I had moved in to a new apartment. It was an apartment I shared with two other gentlemen I had met on Craigslist for this particular location.
00:03:54:14 - 00:04:20:18
Unknown
One was from Brazil. So he, you know, was visiting from Brazil and he was working at a Assai shop that was down the street. And the other guy was an accountant. And the second gentleman, the fourth roommate we had was a German shepherd named Athena, who was very sweet most of the time, but also was a purebred. So she was intimidating, you know, and could snap at any moment.
00:04:20:20 - 00:04:36:18
Unknown
And you kind of like the way I describe Athena. I would always have like a bag of treats in my car because I would have to bribe her to go home, like because if I didn't, like, feed her the treats, you know, she was intimidating and would bark and might even give you a little bit like, you know, he did his best with her.
00:04:36:18 - 00:05:18:18
Unknown
But, you know, she's got an inner she's like a bred from police dogs. But I say that because later on in the story it's relevant. But yeah, in that apartment I had a very traumatic scenario happened and you know when you the story is it's dark and it doesn't have a happy ending yet but for the most part, you know, I'm you know, I have learned a lot from the experience and I'm, you know, in a good place now, but I share it because in the hopes of like anybody else who's dealing with trauma, you know, and needs an outlet, you know, be it a climber, whoever climbing like was the only thing in this
00:05:18:18 - 00:05:40:19
Unknown
scenario that really helped me get through it. And I'll kind of, you know, explain how that, you know, really helped me. But what happened was, well, I'll tell it like this. So in our apartment there it was a two story apartment and as a as a short. But it set up on the bottom level. You know, you walk into the apartment and there's a hardwood floor and then there's a kitchen across the way.
00:05:40:21 - 00:06:03:13
Unknown
If you look directly left, there's a staircase going up to the second level, and then there's four bedrooms at the top. So this story starts where I had I had woken up. So I had heard some yelling, some like sounded to be violent, yelling. But we had had some neighbors who, you know, we're kind of abusive to each other.
00:06:03:13 - 00:06:22:20
Unknown
It wasn't super uncommon and it sounded like it was outside the apartment. So I woke up and a bit and I heard some things. But, you know, I'm one of these people. I'm a heavy sleeper. And once I am asleep, it's hard to get me out of bed. And so I was listening, listening and it kind of trailed off and then it was silent.
00:06:22:20 - 00:06:46:18
Unknown
And I go, okay, I'm going to go back to sleep. So then I wake up and I wake up to my other roommate yelling, you know, And the other the one of the thing is that my my roommate that I was talking about earlier had had met a girl that he was dating for three months, beautiful woman. She was an audiologist.
00:06:46:18 - 00:07:09:22
Unknown
So had her career together. Very smart, very nice. She'd come over a few times, you know, thought the world of her. She was really chill. But back to my story. I hear yelling. And so at first I am struggling to get up. I hear nothing, I get up, I open the door and at the end of the hallway I see the German shepherd.
00:07:09:22 - 00:07:34:09
Unknown
Athena, you know, the the violent German shepherd is sitting at the top of the stairs, you know, with her tail between her legs and her ears down and scared. And I had never seen her like that before. So that's my first thought was, whoa, you know, like, what's going on? So I walked down the hallway, and when you get to the top of the hallway and you're looking at the stairs, I can see the front door and the hardwood floor.
00:07:34:11 - 00:07:58:23
Unknown
And on the hardwood floor, it looked like somebody had taken a mop with blood on it. And so the entire bottom level of the hardwood floor of our apartment was covered in what I can only describe as like a sea, an ocean of blood in a pattern that looked like it was mopped. And so I'm thinking at that moment, in my mind, the door, the also the front door is open.
00:07:59:00 - 00:08:21:21
Unknown
And I'm thinking at that moment in my mind, somebody got cut really bad, you know, like someone must be hurt. So as I'm starting to go down the stairs, like I take literally one step down the stairs and I see police come in, police comes in, fires a taser at something. So basically, like Tasers fired, his partner is looking over her shoulder pistol in my face at the top of the stairs.
00:08:21:21 - 00:08:40:12
Unknown
So I'm sitting at the top of the stairs. I'm looking down. I have a gun in my face, and the guy goes, stay the fuck up there, get in a room. And so luckily at that point I was like, fuck. I had the presence of mind to grab Athena. So I just grabbed her and I took her back down the hallway to my room and I put her in my bathroom because I was in the master bedroom.
00:08:40:12 - 00:08:55:12
Unknown
So I had a bathroom that was in a separate door. So I put it away and then I closed my door and I sat on the bed and I hear they're going upstairs, they're clearing the rooms. And then they come to my room and they're like, You know, anybody in there, identify yourself. You know what they do? And they're clearing.
00:08:55:12 - 00:09:13:11
Unknown
And I'm like, Hey, you know, the dog is in the the bathroom and I'm on the bed with my hands up. You know, you guys are totally safe to come in. So they came in, you know, they they they cleared around. They didn't go in the bathroom and then they left. And so I'm sitting there like, What in the fuck happened?
00:09:13:11 - 00:09:34:09
Unknown
Like, what is going on right now? Like, in my mind at that point, I'm thinking, you know, Chad, maybe Chad. You know, my other roommate, I was like, maybe he had like a grow op that was like there was some secret room. You know, I'm thinking, like, underneath the apartment, even though he lived on, like, a second floor, I'm like, maybe he had some room and the police are raiding us or something.
00:09:34:09 - 00:09:51:02
Unknown
But then I was like, Well, what about the blood? Like, what's going on with that? So I was just sitting and then they had a police officer come up the stairs and this guy was like, White does a ghost, you know? I'm like, terrified. And I'm like, This is like a big old police officer. And he, like, walks over.
00:09:51:02 - 00:10:05:21
Unknown
He's like looking in all the rooms, like, all scared. He was looking scared. And he's like, looks at me and like, doesn't say anything. And I'm like, I'm like, What's up, man? And he's just like, Are you okay? You know, like, And I'm like, Yeah. He's like, Well, he's like, Do you have anything that I can sit on?
00:10:05:21 - 00:10:20:23
Unknown
So I had a rolling chair I gave him. I roll a chair and he's sitting in the hallway and I'm like, I asked him, like, what happened? You know? And he's like, I can't see anything. You know, like, I'm like, well, I just keep asking him. I'm like, because I'm trying in my mind to, like, figure out, like, what is going on.
00:10:21:01 - 00:10:43:04
Unknown
And he's like, I can't see anything like the brass, like you basically you just have to, like, sit on the bed, like, don't do anything. Don't say anything. So this happened at around midnight that night and I had to sit there and I kept asking, but I wasn't free to go. And I didn't know what had happened, but I'd seen blood and I'm trying to piece everything together.
00:10:43:06 - 00:11:22:06
Unknown
And that's where the trauma really started, because ultimately there's some other stuff I'll get to that that happened. But I wasn't released and cleared until around noon the next day. So for 12 hours I was sitting in that room wondering like what had happened and the way I can, the best way that I can think to describe that like feeling that way was like, if you can imagine being in a a metal box with a flame underneath it and it's just white hot and you're just running around the edge of this box for 12 hours, you know, constantly running like my mind is running all over the place, like trying to figure out what's going
00:11:22:06 - 00:11:48:13
Unknown
on, knowing that something's wrong, trying to figure out like, I mean, essentially losing my freedom for a period of time, like not being able to go, not being able to call anybody, being stuck and not having any freedom. And so his his girlfriend that I was talking about earlier had a dog and we could hear his room was at the very end of the hallway and we could hear the dog whimpering.
00:11:48:15 - 00:12:05:10
Unknown
So I asked the police officer, you know, hey, is it cool? Can we give her some food, you know, or something, some water, make sure she's okay because he's whimpering and he's like, Yeah, that should be cool. So I walked by him, Open the door, and this is about 3 hours. So happened at midnight. It's about three in the morning now.
00:12:05:12 - 00:12:24:14
Unknown
So I go into his room and his room is covered with blood. So spatter all over the walls, sheets soaked through blood all over the floor, and the dog is covered in blood and the dog is like barely breathing. And so I like the first thing. I look at the police officer and I'm like, there's evidence in here.
00:12:24:20 - 00:12:38:19
Unknown
And he looks in and he goes, fuck. And he closes the door. And so I realize at that moment that the guys who had come up and supposedly cleared the apartment didn't go in that room because the door was closed. So I'm I go back, sit in my room and I'm thinking, well, shit, the fucking like, whatever.
00:12:38:19 - 00:12:56:19
Unknown
Now I'm like, even more don't know what the fuck is going on. And somebody could have been in there, you know, like someone could have rushed me and hide in that place. So like, yeah, it was, it was horribly traumatic. I kept asking him, you know, I'm like, look, like, this is pretty heavy for me and I want to know what's going on.
00:12:56:19 - 00:13:11:21
Unknown
And his response was he was like, Yeah, he's like the people who who deal with this stuff, they usually don't get up until like six or seven. And I'm like, Well, fucking get them up. Did you? I was like, Why were you at any point being told you were detained? Did you feel like you were being potentially accused of something?
00:13:11:21 - 00:13:28:10
Unknown
Did you like the thought of calling a lawyer or something crossed your mind? Yeah, I mean, I'd ask them because like, at that point I didn't know. Like like after I saw the bloody room, I'm thinking, did like my roommate snap and beat up his girlfriends. I know his girlfriend was over. So I'm like, did he beat her up?
00:13:28:10 - 00:13:46:03
Unknown
I mean, I'm not thinking that I'm accused of anything, but I like seeing the blood on the floor. I'm like, Well, I understand the situation's kind of fucked because they've got to get somebody to, like, clear the crime scene, you know, before they can actually, like, get me through it. So I'm assuming. I mean, I asked him, I was like, well, you know, they didn't want me to call or call anybody, talk to anybody.
00:13:46:03 - 00:14:09:06
Unknown
I mean, I had never been in a situation like this before, so they never told me I was being detained or anything. But I'm just trying to be as like, you know, play as much ball as I can with them. And you probably would have been detained if you had tried, right? Yes. Like, yeah, totally. Totally. So. So yeah, it took about the you know, I had at work that day I was a server.
00:14:09:06 - 00:14:25:23
Unknown
And so I told them I my shift started at noon. So around 1130 shit still wasn't happening. And I'm like, look, like, I don't mean to be like this, guys, but I have rights, you know? And I've been here for 12 hours. This is like really fucking with me and I have work, you know? So like, I've got to be able to at least call them and let them know.
00:14:25:23 - 00:14:42:17
Unknown
Like, if I'm not free to go, I need to get the ball moving. And she's like, okay. So he went and got the detective came up and, you know, is asking me, you know, interviewing me and, you know, I just talk. He's he basically like, you know, you know, do you know anything that happened? And I was like, no.
00:14:42:17 - 00:14:57:14
Unknown
And, you know, he was he was like he kind of looked at me and he was just like, he's like, well, yeah, He's like, I have to inform you that there's been a death. And I'm like, a death. Like, what do you mean? You know? And he's like, Well, do you have any questions for me? And I was like, Yeah, like, what the fuck happened?
00:14:57:14 - 00:15:21:13
Unknown
You know, I've been asking this for the past 12 hours, like, what happened? And he's like, Yeah, your your roommate was killed and I wasn't really told like, what had fully happened until, like, after. But what it ended up happening was so, you know, basic. Well, all end this part by saying they're like, well, we don't fully know what happened, but, you know, you're free to go.
00:15:21:14 - 00:15:40:01
Unknown
We're going to get you out of here. But you have to put on like like booties, basically like these, like til out contaminate the crime scene, like plastic footing stuff. They're like, you should put these on and just get prepared, you know, for like what you're about to see because it's like it's not pretty. Like, okay, So I'm like, fuck.
00:15:40:01 - 00:15:56:22
Unknown
So at that point I kind of just like broke down because the, the stress of like 12 hours just like all accumulated. This hit me super hard. So I just did like a quick like, you know, kind of broke down for a couple seconds to myself. I'm like, okay, you know, he's got to, you know, put the cooler head back on and keep going.
00:15:57:00 - 00:16:15:20
Unknown
And yeah. So we walked down the hallway, walked down the stairs, and the living room was like, I mean, I don't even know how to describe it, but basically, just like the worst crime scene, I mean, literally the worst crime scene you've ever seen, you've probably ever seen. And I say that because I'm a fan of like, you know, first 48 and like some of these crime shows and stuff.
00:16:15:22 - 00:16:35:02
Unknown
And like, the only way I could explain that, that what it looked like there was like if you seen the O.J. Simpson documentary, like the crime scene photos of like after the O.J. Simpson spree similar to that. But like all the the spots where there there isn't blood, blood everywhere. Blood on the walls, on the couch, all over the place.
00:16:35:04 - 00:16:58:13
Unknown
And hey, everyone, just a quick break here. We put a lot of time and effort into the show and have a lot of amazing projects coming in 2024. We want to continue producing amazing content for you and need your support. Please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. This helps validate the show and helps put it in front of more people.
00:16:58:15 - 00:17:18:08
Unknown
Thanks for listening. And now back to the show. So I mean, and just like like you couldn't step on a piece of floor that wasn't soaked full. So like, you know, I was like more my thoughts at that time were like, What the fuck? Like, what happened? I mean, I asked them to I was like, Did we get robbed?
00:17:18:11 - 00:17:37:10
Unknown
Because I was thinking maybe that would explain this. Like someone knew he had something that was bought a weed or something. I don't know. People came in, Rob shot somebody, I don't know. But they're like, No, that's not what happened. So I find out later when it up happening was he had his girlfriend over and they had smoke together.
00:17:37:12 - 00:18:00:14
Unknown
So and I you know, I'm not against weed. I mean I think weed's totally fine. So I don't I don't preface this by saying like, the devil's drug, you know, But like what ended up happening in this particular scenario is that he had gotten her to smoke for her first time and she just lost it. She went into the kitchen, she grabbed the knife and she stabbed him 108 times.
00:18:00:16 - 00:18:19:15
Unknown
And she and then what ended up happening, I find out later, she also stabbed her dog. So she had stabbed her dog and brought her her dog up into his room, put the dog up there, closed the door and went back down. And then I say this, too, because this is all public, like it's all we have a local paper.
00:18:19:15 - 00:18:41:17
Unknown
So like all the details I found out about this have been from the paper. And so like when I saw the police officer shoot the Taser, he hit her with the Taser and it wasn't working. So basically she was over him, still stabbing him and they shot at her with the taser and she didn't respond. So they came in with the baton and broke her arm, like hit her.
00:18:41:20 - 00:19:10:05
Unknown
Their arm broke and I guess at some point before that, yeah, she had also stabbed her dog and put it upstairs. So finally getting that information. This whole thing was a tiered system of trauma where it's like I got hit back to back to back to back to back with, like, all new trauma. Each time I would find out something different about this situation and it it impact I mean, I'm somebody who's not new to trauma.
00:19:10:05 - 00:19:35:00
Unknown
You know, like I saw my friend get hit by a car when we were longboarding. Like, I've seen bones, I've seen a lot of stuff. But like, that was a a whole nother level of trauma. And it impacted me in ways that were subtle and insidious that would like it's not like breaking a foot where it's something physical and yeah, you have mental trauma, but it's like it's something that's that's happened to you.
00:19:35:02 - 00:19:53:18
Unknown
And there's something like you have a set date of recovery, you know, like you have a goal. You're like, All right, I may have broke my foot, but you know, my goal is to get better. And once I do get better, I'll know it. This is like pure mental trauma. And I didn't really have the tools to work through that.
00:19:53:18 - 00:20:16:12
Unknown
I thought I did. But at the time, I the way I responded to it, I got really, really depressed. And I had this fear of like, like the way I say it is like my veneer of safety, my perception of safety was completely ripped away from me. So like, most people are like, you know, it wouldn't happen to me.
00:20:16:12 - 00:20:42:09
Unknown
Or, you know, they have this like pseudo air of invincibility. And that experience to me was a fresh course and like, no, life is random and bad shit happens like that, you know, for no reason. I mean, there was nothing there's nothing in that situation that I could point to to say, you know, like, yeah, like for instance, like I'm hanging out with the wrong crowd and somebody get shot or something, okay?
00:20:42:09 - 00:21:11:13
Unknown
There's going to be, you know, there's nothing about this situation that had any there was nothing that could have been done and it shouldn't have happened. And so I just like like had to learn how to cope with that trauma and to bring it back to climbing. Climbing was my solace, like it was how I was able to recontextualize my experience in my life.
00:21:11:15 - 00:21:39:09
Unknown
And like, I'll I'll say it like this, like the first thing to anybody who's really suffering with depression, like, I feel you and I've been there and I just want to let you know it's okay. And like it is the worst disease like it is. Depression is so insidious and it's a silent killer. And like, I just I want to say, like, the way I handled that situation was and if you're struggling with that, you have to, like, bring things down.
00:21:39:09 - 00:21:55:09
Unknown
You have to, like, have goals, you know, And with with climbing, to me, it was like I had like a it was for me, it was like the grades or like a climb. I would choose somewhere like at Torquay. It's, it's like, the next logical step. Like, I know that this next weekend, like this weekend was finger trip.
00:21:55:09 - 00:22:22:00
Unknown
Next weekend's going to be Coffin nail. You know, it was like it got me back into like getting stoked for life again and like, rooting myself back in reality, if that makes sense. Like not getting lost in the the thoughts, you know, and like, the trauma and the thinking about things. It like, gave me something to like, to like, focus on because it's like in that situation, the trauma and the depression is like always fighting for space in your mind, you know?
00:22:22:06 - 00:22:59:08
Unknown
And you've got to like focus on something, you know, and like, give yourself meaning back in your life. And so in one in one aspect, climbing helped me in the first phase to like, you know, focus on a goal again and get stoked for something. And that allowed me like when I was out, like, you know, as at Torquay as I had done white bins walkway and like that particular day, like the way that the light hit the valley, like I've never seen something so beautiful and like, it's just one of those days you have those moments out there, be it in the Sierra or wherever your crag is, where it's like you have like
00:22:59:08 - 00:23:31:14
Unknown
you see something that's just like, Wow, you and like it. It just gave me gratitude to still be alive and, you know, allowed me like, I mean, also with climbing, like being able to like, come back to the moment and like not get lost in your mind was a huge thing, you know? And ultimately, like, what it also did for me, it evolved into like showing other people, you know, who either want to get into the sport or like friends who had never experienced the sport, who might originally not have wanted to get into it.
00:23:31:14 - 00:23:53:04
Unknown
And then talking to me, you know, like I was able to take them and now they're off crushing, you know, And like, it gave me like a way to like, like a meaning and like a way to feel good again. Because I felt part of the trauma of that whole scenario. I, you know, and I still struggle a bit with it is like, fuck, man, if I had gotten up earlier, would I have been able to help?
00:23:53:06 - 00:24:13:01
Unknown
You know, like when I have been able to save his life or and it fucks with me. Yeah, yeah. And it fuck with you because it's like with me, I'm like, you know, All right, well, you can, you can think maybe, maybe. But like, at the same time, like, maybe not, you know? And you know what would have happened?
00:24:13:01 - 00:24:41:13
Unknown
Like, you know, when I have gotten killed, you know, like he got killed. So it's like what? I have gotten killed. Like what? How does that impact my family? How would they have felt if I had to be the hero? You know, it like it it just I guess what I'm saying is it makes you realize that, like situations like that of pure trauma and PTSD, the horror comes on so quick, so fast, and you don't know, you know, that the expression, the fog of war, you just don't know what's going on until it's almost done.
00:24:41:15 - 00:25:04:15
Unknown
And like, I really enjoy I mean, bring it back to what I was saying before. Like when I see people who I bring out climbing in like they are having a good time and they're experiencing like I'm like blowing their minds or like we're out in some beautiful area. Like there's some connection to me of like, seeing them, like, so happy and stoked and feeling safe and having a great time and just being alive.
00:25:04:15 - 00:25:29:11
Unknown
That like gives me meaning and like helps with that a bit. I don't know, like I talk it out, it, you know, almost part of it. I want to say it doesn't make sense, but like it does to me, like, and I guess like what I'm trying to say with it all is that climbing was the perfect vehicle that I needed at that time to process that scenario.
00:25:29:13 - 00:25:50:17
Unknown
And I don't know what I would have done had I not had climbing and I not had the community that climbing afforded me. I don't know what I would have done or how I would have process that. And it's just something that like I'm so thankful for. And yeah, I mean, yeah, I just I know, I know. It's like just a super fucking heavy story and like a lot, man.
00:25:50:21 - 00:26:10:04
Unknown
Yeah. When I say that it doesn't have a happy ending yet, the, the woman is, has been out on bail for five years, so she is out on a $500,000 bail. And that was another thing that stuck with me because, you know, at the time I was working for RTI and I was thinking, what dude what do I do?
00:26:10:05 - 00:26:27:19
Unknown
You know, if she comes in, you know, like, I don't know what to do, you know, like I'm, you know, so like, I had to that to process or if I'm out on a trail or like, and you know, she, she had, she was posting. Yeah. I mean I'll say, I'll say it like this to like her.
00:26:27:19 - 00:26:54:21
Unknown
Her scenario is so terrifying to me because I mean, she basically like from the articles I've read, she they took her to the hospital and then she you know, the police were questioning her and she admitted to the whole thing, you know, and just said, here's what I remember later on, went back on it. Or basically, like what's happening now is that the prosecution or the defense is trying to get that testimony thrown out because they talked to her after she had had surgery.
00:26:54:23 - 00:27:14:12
Unknown
So there's some weird thing about how, they're trying to argue, yeah, she was under anesthesia still or whatever, but so she's on some whole defense thing. But she's still out. She's been out on $500,000 bail. And it's it's honestly from from like what I've read and heard and what I've gathered, it sounds like, you know, some money is changing hands.
00:27:14:12 - 00:27:33:10
Unknown
You know, like there are people who have done far less who are in jail, you know, so like and, you know, the first week she was out, she posted, you know, I'll never forget it. She posted her Instagram. You know, she was like with the dog. She got the dog back and she's like, she's like, what's your next adventure?
00:27:33:14 - 00:27:51:13
Unknown
You know, like posting a hot dog in like, I don't know, some some area. And I'm just like, man, like, I can forgive like, such a scary scenario where if you really don't remember a situation like that, like how terrifying to like smoke some weed or whatever and wake up and like, not know what happened, but then like to know what happened and to like post like that.
00:27:51:13 - 00:28:12:12
Unknown
Like, what do you think that his parents are? You know, like it's just awful and like, so yeah, it doesn't have a happy ending yet, but I'm hoping for a happy ending. But I know it's a super heavy story, but I just want to share. I've definitely got a few things here. I mean, first off, obviously, you know, really sorry that happened to.
00:28:12:12 - 00:28:44:00
Unknown
Yeah, obviously such a terrible situation and story and just so much to to process there I was I am a little curious about this because my interpretation of it like, for example, people have genetic proclivities to having psychotic or drug induced psychosis from marijuana. Like that's actually a pretty well understood thing. So from the way you described it and obviously, like I wasn't there experiencing the trauma, but it seems like this is not like a premeditated or second degree murder.
00:28:44:00 - 00:29:12:09
Unknown
This is essentially someone had a mental health psychotic episode that ended in them, you know, brutally in some kind of episode, killing the person, at least to the best of my understanding. That's that's what that sounds like. So, I mean, in a sense, it's almost like everybody's a victim. You know, like, I would agree that it is a little questionable to have like, you would think somebody would at least be in a mental health facility or something rather than out on bail.
00:29:12:11 - 00:29:35:18
Unknown
But on some level, like she is a victim, if that if on the simplistic version of what I have heard is is like what it is, then on some level she's a victim, you know, which is really bizarre to think about. So I'm really not arguing that point. Obviously, we condolences to the other individual was killed you know so do you do you view it like that at all?
00:29:35:18 - 00:30:08:14
Unknown
Do you view her as a victim in a sense from like having a psychotic break, or is it hard to perceive something like that? Because obviously you've lived through the experience? Yeah, I mean, I, I definitely do. Like I was saying before, like, I can I can absolutely like every time I think about her scenario, like, especially when after at first, like all the news came out when it happened, like, I can't imagine how terrifying that is to like, have you to be an audiologist, you know, for UCLA and have your whole life ahead of you like doing good things and all of a sudden bored yanks your license like horrifying.
00:30:08:14 - 00:30:28:12
Unknown
I mean, absolutely terrifying. And on that side of it, like people make mistakes and like yeah, I could definitely see that being like so scary and so awful. The things that I struggle with are that that the way that she's treated the situation after the fact. Those are the things I struggle with. I don't I've heard I mean, I've read one article, you know, they got a picture of her.
00:30:28:13 - 00:30:50:17
Unknown
I mean, you know, if anybody wants to read them, it's all public. But, you know, kind of like smirking at the family, you know, in the courtroom or like stuff like that. I hear that's like that. That bugs me, you know. All right. So I'm going to chime in here. I'm gonna chime in. Yeah. First off, your story gave me shivers, but then I'll tell you why.
00:30:50:17 - 00:31:23:21
Unknown
And this is going to get this is going to head in a direction. The whole story to me reeks of some evil fucking shit, and I can't help but lean towards the direction of some satanic like fucked up shit. And so I'm going to go in that direction with a little more literacy, but I mean, did you ever feel any sort of evil presence when she was around?
00:31:23:21 - 00:31:47:01
Unknown
Did you see any sort of flicker of personality in her eyes? Did the house feel weird at any time? Like were there areas of energy where you're just like getting a weird feeling? Basically, I'm alluding to, like, were there any precursors to maybe some sort of connection to an evil energy source either with her or at that house?
00:31:47:01 - 00:32:06:05
Unknown
You know, I and I, I get what you're saying, too. Like, I have some buddies, close friends of mine, and like, they had come come over. One of them had some twins, like Ryan had come over and was hanging out with all of us. He was in town. They were living up in the bay at the time. He had come down just to to like scope the roommates, check out the place.
00:32:06:05 - 00:32:24:08
Unknown
You know, prior to that, I lived in some like really like, you know, dingy scenario was trying to save money, you know, like converted garages that shouldn't have been converted, not to code dirty as fuck, you know, like just trying to scrape by. So this was actually a really nice place compared to like where I was and like, had a had a good vibe.
00:32:24:08 - 00:32:50:07
Unknown
All the roommates were chill. Like I was happy at the time. And, you know, my roommate who was there who had hung out with us that day after like he called me like, make sure everything was okay. He was like, Yeah, dude. Like, I didn't feel anything like that. Like, I mean, with her, I had only hung out with her a couple of times, so, like, it was I'd only live there for two months, so I only knew everybody in the place for two months.
00:32:50:07 - 00:33:23:21
Unknown
And she, he started dating her a month in. So she, I had only met her twice the the second time. So, well, when, when she would come over, you know, he and her would get intimate. So I would, I would sleep with, with headphones in but I would kind of avoid when they were together because. Yeah, they would, I mean I wouldn't say that they brought out the worst in each other, but there was definitely like a vibe of, I don't know, like I loved hanging out with him and when I was talking to her alone, she seemed fine.
00:33:23:21 - 00:33:42:11
Unknown
But the two of them together kind of had a like a sort of a bully kind of feeling to them. And I just chalk that up to like, look, you know, whatever. Like he I don't mind that. Like, he's just trying to impress this girl, you know, they're just meeting each other. You know, if he wants to be I want to say Dick, but if he wants to to be a little like, you know, act like he's the boss, whatever.
00:33:42:11 - 00:33:58:07
Unknown
Like, that's cool. I'm fine. But I wouldn't really, like, like to hang out, you know, in that in that scenario. But again, it was only she'd only come over like a couple of times and only actually like an even. And even in that situation, it was more his behavior that was unsettling in a way that rather than hers.
00:33:58:09 - 00:34:17:23
Unknown
Yeah. Him No, I mean, he no, because you were saying that he was like he was the one being bossy. And she Yeah, I mean, but her behavior was coming her to a little. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, I guess it's like that's where my mind goes. Like, this kind of stuff just seems like to too dark.
00:34:18:01 - 00:34:58:23
Unknown
The blood, the walls, all the rooms, the dog. Like, I think that, you know, they talk about how, you know, certain people are more tapped into the spiritual realm than others. And sometimes, you know, we use psychedelics or drugs to better access those channels. To me. It just seems like and this is just my total biased analysis of the situation that the Yeah, I mean, she was probably pretty predisposed to some sort of psychosis, but she must have also had some sort of either already connected to some sort of dark energy stream or it connected to her in that moment, that night.
00:34:59:01 - 00:35:18:02
Unknown
Yeah. It's so dark and so sadistic that it makes me want to believe that she had already had some sort of relationship, that kind of energy, whether she was aware of it or not. But it definitely seemed like it had a hold on her and kind of took over her that night with the use of marijuana as kind of a pathway.
00:35:18:04 - 00:35:42:23
Unknown
So that's my that's like after hearing your entire story, like, that's how I would process that entire situation. And I totally would just be shook in and terrified. And just like you said, the lack of security, that was something that hit pretty hard with me is not feeling safe anymore. And just realizing that, you know, someone could come out of the shadows and stab you for a fucking reason, you know, for real harm.
00:35:43:01 - 00:36:16:01
Unknown
Yeah. My question, I guess for for climbing real quick is you had mentioned how it gave you purpose, again, with this sense of safety. Did climbing give you a way to control your own safety again? In a way, yeah. Beautifully said. And like I had a buddy who had done like some psychology work and he had he admitted that he had said some some term like edge work or something where, you know, you, you purposely expose yourself to like risk and scenarios to kind of like reprocessed danger and trauma.
00:36:16:02 - 00:36:41:15
Unknown
And so yeah, through like trad and all through sport, like having that fear, like having that risk of some falls, you know, even in a safe scenario where, yeah, okay, even if I fall in some sport route, I'm not going to die. But like being able to it for me at least to give gave me back some form of like control, like being able to sort of like, predispose myself to anxiety, you know, at a drip level that I wanted kind of and yeah, I beautifully said.
00:36:41:15 - 00:37:07:04
Unknown
I think that like that's definitely a part of it. That's awesome to hear. Yeah, that's exactly what I kind of thought when I was here in that. But while dude, I mean, well, I think something I think about with the climbing community touching on this subject is is back to that purpose in meeting. So I think a lot of times people want to think about, you know, I want to achieve happiness in life, but happy happiness is this really like transitory, you know, fading emotion that you experience moments of.
00:37:07:04 - 00:37:29:19
Unknown
And then it kind of and then it leaves, right? So you're not going to actually achieve like happiness all the time in your life. But if your life has purpose and meaning, then you can kind of bear the suffering and the trauma of reality. And something that I think is so interesting with climbing is it's kind of this never ending pursuit to simply just challenge myself and to better myself.
00:37:29:19 - 00:37:45:17
Unknown
And then you can create all these kind of meta and you know, smaller goals within that pursuit that cater to you. You want to go in the Sierras and you want to do that. You know, we all have our own goals, but it but it is that never ending pursuit which also comes with all these caveats up. I love doing it.
00:37:45:17 - 00:38:14:08
Unknown
I love the outdoors. It brings you endorphins, exercise, health, wellness, there's all these other great things. But back to that purpose and meaning of chasing this, this pursuit of betterment, that purpose in your life, it gives you something to structure yourself, to hold on to, to look forward to and to continuously strive towards. And I think that purpose in life is really what can help people bear suffering and and everybody experiences suffering in their lives.
00:38:14:08 - 00:38:33:15
Unknown
Right? And so I think that's something for me that I think about with climbing is at least what's ironic about the ankle situation is climbing gave me my suffering and then was the solution to my suffering, which is like the you know, the the cure to the disease was the disease. I don't even know. But but in general, I just think about that purpose and meaning as something that's so special.
00:38:33:15 - 00:38:56:02
Unknown
And I feel, I guess unique. It's not unique to climbing. It's unique for me because that's where I found that purpose and meaning through climbing. So but just to touch back on something real quick here where we were kind of talking about maybe, you know, explanations for her behavior and stuff, I just I just would say that, you know, my thought process on it honestly is like Occam's Razor.
00:38:56:02 - 00:39:25:15
Unknown
So, you know, it's like if you have multiple explanations for something, usually the simplest one is probably the more logical. And for me, the way I think about it is, you know, why would she, why would she tank and I don't know. I don't know what I don't know. I can't make anything. But from a simplistic like point of view, why would she destroy her entire life, her education and her doctor stab her own dog, potentially lose her freedom for life?
00:39:25:17 - 00:39:44:01
Unknown
You know, like it realistically, the simplest solution to that is like people having severe psychotic episodes are full on drug induced psychosis. They just do totally crazy things, you know, And you can explain that in different ways and however you want. But like, that's that's just what I think of when I hear that. And, you know, for all I know, you never know.
00:39:44:01 - 00:40:05:06
Unknown
It could be something premeditated or anything. But I yeah, I mean, I don't think that it was premeditated at all. I thought you were trying to say like premeditated or something. And I was like, no, that sounds like that's another accusation. I was like, Whoa, no, no, I don't I don't think that she personally had any awareness of one it happening or or anything.
00:40:05:06 - 00:40:36:09
Unknown
My I'm kind of putting the blame or the explanation on a separate entity that took over that you and you know, I agree with the psychosis side of it where it was a mental break. But to me, that doesn't explain the level of darkness and sadistic situation that totally caused. Yeah. Like if it was like, you know, if it was like, you know, she had a psychotic break and she, like, ran outside naked with a knife and like, was screaming and was fearful or something like that.
00:40:36:09 - 00:41:02:07
Unknown
But the level of violence and the level of blood that he's describing, like it's too dark for me to accept that as just some sort of misfire in the brain the way I have to to explain that is that there was another presence there that night that that caused that kind of level of nastiness. Yeah, I was just I wasn't yeah, I just thought it was just different in the way I would explain that.
00:41:02:07 - 00:41:18:03
Unknown
But I think ultimately we're like we're kind of saying the same thing in like a different rationale and language of that makes sense. So yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I don't, you know, and I don't even know what to say about this. You know, I'm going to be thinking about this like five days. I did have one here and I'm sorry.
00:41:18:03 - 00:41:38:09
Unknown
Sometimes I like you ever get that where something is just so terrible and dark, Like, there's almost funny things about it. Like, you just have to process something with humor or something. So I don't mean to If I ever laugh at something or anything, it's really not trying to make light of the situation. But I am curious, did you smoke weed before and do you smoke weed now?
00:41:38:11 - 00:41:57:10
Unknown
No, no. At the time, actually, no, no, I was I was sober and like, thank God, because I would not have been a scenario that I would want to have been hurt not even the scenario. Like, did you previously occasionally smoke weed and now are you just, like, mortified of weed or do you view it really as just like, No, I'm not mortified at all.
00:41:57:15 - 00:42:17:07
Unknown
Not, not all I like? It's no, I mean, you know, I won't confirm or deny on the podcast, you know, if, if I have partaken. But you know, I, you know, I just I know, you know, I might know my way around some real. Okay, guys, because I still say that. So I know the spices in his pantry.
00:42:17:09 - 00:42:40:04
Unknown
Yeah, some, you know, in the meals every once in a while perhaps. But no but yeah, dude, like for what you were saying, Max, too, is like, I've learned to process that also, like, yeah, she's a of everybody's a victim and I just think about like, I mean, honestly, dude, like where my thoughts go a lot of the time when I do think back on it, I mean, it happened probably now like three or four years ago.
00:42:40:06 - 00:43:02:17
Unknown
But when I do think back on it, I, I used to get really mad, you know, and like, I used to, like, not want to talk about it at all, not even just because of the trauma being brought up, but just like the the fury of like her still being out because it's such an injustice. And it's like not only for me, but like when I do think back on it, I think about his parents.
00:43:02:19 - 00:43:24:19
Unknown
I think about that a lot because those people I mean, they're like the Goldmans, like like in a in an O.J. Simpson, you know, scenario, like they're not getting justice. And like, I cannot like, it's been actually it's probably been close to like four or four or five years now, four or five years of having your son brutally murdered and like, no justice and like, it's yeah, it's it's awful.
00:43:24:19 - 00:43:45:23
Unknown
And like, I look at it like this, too. It's like in terms of like everybody's a victim. Yeah, I agree. But, you know, in a certain extent, there's consequences for your actions. You know, there's people every day who decide that they're going to get super drunk and go drive and take people out. You know, they get a hard time, you know, And the reason for that is because they've done something that has impacted a lot of people and created a lot of victims.
00:43:45:23 - 00:44:03:22
Unknown
And like those people who drank, drink and drive and took out a family of four, you know, in a minivan, It's like they didn't mean to do that. But at the same time, their actions caused a lot of pain to society and to a bunch of individuals. And so, like, you know, I feel I just like I don't get angry anymore.
00:44:03:22 - 00:44:25:07
Unknown
Like, I do stuff again. Like the after stuff bothers me a bit, but like, I'm to a point now about the whole thing where I don't get mad. I just I get like it bums me out too. I just every time I think back on it, I mean, luckily, like, I've had enough time to, like, process everything and I feel like, you know, I'm in a good scenario with just like, where I'm at in my life.
00:44:25:07 - 00:45:00:19
Unknown
I mean, my life is not perfect by any means, but like, definitely, like, could be a lot worse. And I feel like I've definitely mined a lot out of the scenario, like a lot of life lessons, a lot of different perspectives. Like, you know, I definitely haven't let the the situation own me take over me or not let me learn, you know, And like, I've taken a lot of that, you know, and built on it and helped, you know, help to like go me further in my life as far as who I am, just as a man and as an individual, so that I'm very grateful for because, dude, scenarios like this, like, I mean,
00:45:00:19 - 00:45:19:22
Unknown
I've, I've grown up with friends who've passed away and died for much less in like, or, you know, taken their life or I mean, it's a fucking heavy stuff. Like this is fucking heavy and like, you know, I wouldn't I mean, it's definitely given me a first class look at post-traumatic stress disorder and, like, you know, sometimes I'll.
00:45:19:22 - 00:45:54:11
Unknown
I mean, I definitely I'm not a veteran. I've never been to war like, but sometimes I'll see, like, I do enjoy, like, war documentaries and stuff, and, like, I'll see them being interviewed and, like, they'll talk about post-traumatic stress disorder. And I'm like, okay, yeah, I get that. I know what it's like to be, you know, a great like summary of PTSD or one of the symptoms is somebody said, you know, imagine like a car idling at like, you know, a certain like 200 RPMs, like I'm not a car guy, but low like PTSD, idle at like 2000, like my engine is already completely wired.
00:45:54:13 - 00:46:22:20
Unknown
The minute I wake up to the minute I go to sleep, I'm just wired all the time. It's like I don't buy nervous system is just so you know ready and like you know fried out kind of and I think that I mean after that scenario I also went back to skydiving. I'm not currently jumping but like skydiving also like getting back finishing my license from the from the surgery was also a big milestone to me and was like a heavy thing.
00:46:22:20 - 00:46:37:01
Unknown
And it helped me to deal with the anxiety because like when you're jumping out of planes, especially after you've like, fucked yourself up and broke your foot, like if you can get your ass up and go jump out of a plane, everything else in life is like so mellow, like there's nothing that can get to you after that.
00:46:37:01 - 00:47:09:12
Unknown
It's like, you know, yeah, Somebody cut me off on the road. It's like you're just like, the most Zen, you know? For me, at least, that's. That's the impact it had on me. But yeah, I mean, I Yeah, dude, it's all, it's all heavy, and it's just, it comes down to, like, maybe. I mean, I definitely agree with Kyle, like, I thought for a while, Dude, it's so fucking dark, like, some weird shit, you know, like, and can be, like, the way I process the whole scenario now is in the end, like, it's kind of like looking back on history where it's like, could this have happened?
00:47:09:12 - 00:47:27:00
Unknown
Could that have happened? It's like the area kind of with it is like it doesn't really matter. And I don't say that like, I don't care because I do care a lot. It's like it doesn't matter the sense of like, what's the reality? Like, what are the consequences right now? Like, that's kind of what I get back to.
00:47:27:00 - 00:47:46:10
Unknown
Like, regardless of who's a victim who isn't, you know, or was it was there satanic shit going on with her or not? It's like all very well. Yes. Agree. Maybe, maybe not. But like, you know, at the end of the day, like, we just have to see where where it ends up and where it goes in reality, because, like, you know, I still I pity her a lot.
00:47:46:10 - 00:48:05:15
Unknown
I used to be very angry at her. Now I look at her as she is a victim and I feel terrible for her, but I feel much worse for his family. And I just like, don't you know, she needs to have a she needs to see her time. I don't know if it's going to happen because I hear, like the longer these things get extended out, the worse it is for the prosecution.
00:48:05:17 - 00:48:45:13
Unknown
I hope not. I've come to accept either either scenario. You know, I'm not going to let it impact my life. And, you know, I just I feel really fortunate to have had like climbing in the avenues, especially like like I said before, like the community of people, like I've met some of the kindest people and like, you know, just having that support system has been immensely helpful and like, you know, I guess to bring it to like in a positive direction, like with the, like, you know, with the satanic shit, I feel like there's also just things that come into your life that are just good like that.
00:48:45:13 - 00:49:13:21
Unknown
You just need, you know, and, you know, without saying sounding too like okey dokey about it. Like I feel like climbing just came into my life because it was meant to like, it's just like I don't know what I would have done without it. And like, if there was something demonic in her that made her do that, that like, there was, there was something else from a good place that, like brought climbing to me, you know, and like, yeah, there's stuff like that all over.
00:49:13:21 - 00:49:37:22
Unknown
And, you know, we can just I just have to be thankful, you know, like what I do have. And not to say that, you know, I don't have my moments of depression or thinking back on things, and you but like, by and large, I feel like I've done a very good job or as good as I can of like, you know, processing the situation and learning from it.
00:49:37:22 - 00:50:10:11
Unknown
And, yeah, I mean, like, I just hope, like if anybody listening like, has depression or is struggling or you were in a scenario that's like so horrific and you've been traumatized or had PTSD, like, you know, there there are ways to handle it. And, you know, always try to to talk to somebody, you know, like a friend, a family member, but like try to like besides that, I would say like for me at least, I don't want to make it sound like I'm oversimplifying, but like, do what you can to get stoked again.
00:50:10:11 - 00:50:27:14
Unknown
Like, you've got like if you're sitting, you have PTSD, you hate your life, you're depressed as fuck, you can't get out of bed like I've been there and it's fucked. It's so hard. And you just you've got to do what you can do to get stoked again. Like find something, be it climbing or like, get something that you want to go and do on the weekend.
00:50:27:14 - 00:50:43:00
Unknown
You know, for me, again, it was torquay's. It's like the I'm going to do the next classic at this grade, you know? So whatever bullshit I got to deal with in the week, I know that I've got something where I'm going to go on Saturday, I'm going to start climbing and not even think about the shit. You know, I can't because you can't when you're climbing, you know, you're just in the moment.
00:50:43:00 - 00:51:11:04
Unknown
Yeah. And just like, try to do what you can to get stoked about life and, you know, like, reach out to people. And I guess I don't want to make it sound simple because depression in PTSD is so fucked up. It's such a hard thing to deal with. But you know, yeah, if you're listening to the podcast dude, and you need somebody to talk to you like reach out to me or I'm sure Kyle or Max or, you know, want to climb with somebody, do just anything you got to do, you know, stay around and keep fighting.
00:51:11:06 - 00:51:37:05
Unknown
You know, you'll get there. Thanks for listening to today's episode. We put a lot of time and work into this project, so if you're a fan of the show, please share this story with your friends. What are your thoughts? Do you think Spencer's sentencing was? Just let us know. Email us at the Climbing Majority podcast at gmail.com. Com or engage with us on social media.
00:51:37:07 - 00:51:48:00
Unknown
Until next time.