57 | "Yer Gonna Die" - Elitism In Climbing w/ Landon McDowell

I would argue that our climbing community is mostly open, kind, and understanding. But I am sure we all have our own experiences with people who are not. The silent judgy squad that think they own the crag. The keyboard warrior that spreads hate, judgment, and negativity behind the protection of a screen. 

Today we sit down with Landon McDowell, a self proclaimed “Reformed Elitist”. Having started climbing at the age of 14 he quickly noticed a natural proclivity towards the sport.  Climbing soon became the source for Landon's identity, ego, and happiness. He noticed this and its effect on the people around him and quit rock climbing to work on himself and pursue his new passion of flight sports. Landon now has a calm, collected and positive outlook on life and is aiming to push the boundaries of alpine flight sports.

In our conversation, we chat about Landons rapid progression from a gym sport climber to projecting Desert Reality, an iconic and imposing roof crack in Red Rock Canyon. We get to hear what it might be like to be on the other side of the keyboard to the “yer gonna die” comment we all see online. And finally, we chat about Landons new passion of base jumping and speed flying and how he envisions mixing these disciplines with climbing and taking them into the mountains…

Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.

Contact us:
IG: @the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:24:17
Unknown
Hey, everyone. Kyle here. Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast, where Max and I sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides and recreational climbers alike to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber. If you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:26:08 - 00:00:33:16
Unknown
I would argue that our climbing community is mostly open, kind and understanding, but I'm sure we all have our own experiences with people

00:00:33:16 - 00:00:47:07
Unknown
who are not the silent drug squad that thinks they own the crack, the keyboard warrior that spreads hate judgment and negativity from behind the protection of a screen. Today we sit down with Landon McDowell, a self-proclaimed reformed elitist.

00:00:47:08 - 00:01:10:13
Unknown
Having started climbing at the age of 14, he quickly noticed a natural proclivity towards the sport. Climbing soon became the source for Landon's identity. Ego and his happiness. He noticed this and its effect on people around him and quit rock climbing to work on himself and pursue a new passion of flight sports. Landon now has a calm, collected and positive outlook on life and is aiming to push the boundaries of Alpine flight sports.

00:01:10:15 - 00:01:36:19
Unknown
In our conversation, we chat about Landon's rapid progression from a gym sport climber to projecting a desert reality, an iconic and imposing roof crack in Red Rock Canyon. We get to hear what it might be like to be on the other side of the keyboard to the you're going to die comment. We all see online. And finally, we chat about Landon's new passion of base jumping and speed flying and how he envisions mixing these disciplines with climbing and taking them into the mountains.

00:01:49:21 - 00:02:10:20
Unknown
All right, everybody, welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast. We're happy to have you here. We're sitting down with land in McDowell Island. And welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me, man. Absolutely, man. Yeah. Yeah. I ran into you once again, you know, via Instagram. Has things do you know, through the the P.O.V. channel. I remember following you.

00:02:10:20 - 00:02:26:09
Unknown
I think it was after you sent Desert Gold. I think it popped up on my feed and I was just like, Wow. Like, who the hell is this kid? I got to follow him. And, you know, I've been following you ever since, and it's been quite a progression to see you go through. So, you know, we're here to talk about that.

00:02:26:09 - 00:02:52:13
Unknown
And and so let's just kind of dive into it real quick. I'm interested, you know, we dive, we dive deep into people and how they found climbing you, particularly at least with my limited knowledge. How old are you, Landon? I'm 21, so I'm like, I'm just a baby, man. Okay, Yeah. So you're young, you know, I won't spoil it too much, but you've already climbed desert gold, which is?

00:02:52:13 - 00:03:23:02
Unknown
And full disclaimer. I have not centered. Okay, you're still on it. You're in the roof, you know, And so, you know, you're on A what's that? 13 B I think 13 A 13 A Okay, yes, a 13. A roof crack. You're you're projecting this. You're, you know, younger than you are now. So that's a huge accomplishment. I'd like to go back in the past a little bit and and talk to us a little bit about how you found climbing and, you know, when you started climbing and kind of bring us to that point where you got to desert gold.

00:03:23:04 - 00:03:50:02
Unknown
Yeah. So I started climbing out probably age 14 or 15 years old, and I actually started like an outdoor retreat. So, like, I was I was sent away for a week to St George's Canyon called Crowded Canyon. Did you do something bad? No, I didn't do something bad. But it was. It was similar vibes to, like wilderness therapy, but it was not I did not do anything bad.

00:03:50:03 - 00:04:10:02
Unknown
Okay. But I went to this and do part of this camp. There was like a rock climbing day and we got to climb real rock. And like the entire time our week, like leading up to it was like, Hey, are we going to rock climb? We're going to go rock on, Can we go up? When we were well, we went rock climbing and I was hooked.

00:04:10:04 - 00:04:44:22
Unknown
Like, I remember, like on the drive home, like my mother picked me up on the drive home. I had somehow convince her into ordering me shoes and a harness like on the driver. And we're like, I'm on her phone, buying them off the And then fast forward found the climbing gym and it it been on the climbing team at the camp I actually only did one comp I learned I hated competitions and I started climbing outside and this is in Logan, Utah at the time.

00:04:44:22 - 00:05:09:06
Unknown
So I started climbing up Logan Canyon. Wow. So a like a gym situation right into comp climbing. You're climbing super young, age 14. That puts you at seven years of climbing experience at this point, does it not? Yeah, I think so, yeah. How much of that was consecutive and how much of that was kind of broken? Like did you take breaks or have you been pretty hardcore about it?

00:05:09:08 - 00:05:36:19
Unknown
So from like age like 14, 15, I was pretty much balls to the wall until like this last year, with the exception of a collarbone break, probably like 15 or 16. Was that climbing related? No, I was on a dirt bike. Okay. Yeah. what. What about climbing motivated you? What did you like about it? For me, it was a really nice way to have adventures.

00:05:36:19 - 00:05:58:22
Unknown
So I grew up in a really adventurous family. I grew up doing things outside. I was really privileged and I really just wanted to go have an adventure. I wanted to go see how far I could push myself, what kind of what kind of kid were you like? If you like self-described yourself, are you like, really calm, collect, super rambunctious?

00:05:58:22 - 00:06:31:22
Unknown
Like what? What is the allure to climbing based on kind of your temperament that makes sense. I sort of give you an idea. As a kid, I was diagnosed with ADHD and Oppositional Defiance disorder, so I wasn't laughing. I just like I had No, no, no. You combine. So it's like, okay, there you go. Yeah. No, I was I was diagnosed with ADHD and Oppositional Defiance Disorder or o.D, and like, I grew up at, like the skate park, like skateboarding and like punk rock.

00:06:31:22 - 00:06:57:21
Unknown
I played music like, nice, really like, rebellious, like I wanted, you know, as I wanted to stick it to the man. Even though I grew up in little Logan, Utah, I didn't know that they had a clinical diagnosis for being a rebel. Yeah, Yeah, it's almost a flex. Okay, nice. You're like, I'm going to get the doctor to tell me that I'm this.

00:06:57:23 - 00:07:19:21
Unknown
Yeah. No, I just think it's so, you know, it's just like, so ubiquitous in the climbing community where, you know, there's just like, people, they just need this outlet. And if you have a super rambunctious, kind of defiant kid and you can go into this, this sport that gives you adventure channels, your focus, your emotions, you know, makes you work really hard.

00:07:19:21 - 00:07:48:16
Unknown
And it's just such a good outlet, you know? And of course, like from the show and anecdotes and just people I know so many people are kind of fit what you're talking about, you know, like, of course, like I'm not projecting myself onto you, but for me, you know, like, I didn't find climbing that young, but I know, like, I was that kind of kid, you know, super anti-authority, really like attention deficit issues, like super rambunctious and energy, like climbing would have been the perfect outlet, I think was like hockey and other sports at the time.

00:07:48:16 - 00:08:09:07
Unknown
But yeah, that's awesome, man. How quickly did you get into track climbing? Because I think that like it's gym sport, trad, you know, alpine objectives. Like what was that progression like for you? Yeah. So I was in the gym, but I was, the gym was always like the gym was never where I wanted to end up. Like in my brain.

00:08:09:07 - 00:08:29:22
Unknown
I always wanted to climb outside. I wanted to climb real routes. I remember very specifically seeing like the video of like Mason Earle climbing over crack and like, I was like, I want to do that data school. And I got to the gym and the first thing that I immediately started to do was try to find someone to teach me how to track by.

00:08:30:00 - 00:08:49:21
Unknown
Like I had taught myself how to sport, climb off YouTube. I somehow didn't have an accident. I was definitely like a flight risk for the first little while. But like my number one goal was to find somebody, teach me to try to climb and then about age 17, I was able to find someone who taught me. And what was that process like for you?

00:08:49:21 - 00:09:22:18
Unknown
Like, how did you find that person? How did you connect with them and what was the learning process like? Yeah, so that person was actually one of the coaches at the time at the gym and I was climbing and basically nonstop the entire time I at practice was like, probably practice is like 40% climbing and 60% of me like just like asking questions about outdoor time and just trying to chase and go just broke them down.

00:09:22:20 - 00:09:48:07
Unknown
Did you have a hard time finding partners for outdoor climbing when you were in the, you know, younger years early or the stages? Yes and no for sport climbing up the canyon. I was lucky enough there was actually a community of kids my age that would go out and climate change cave. Also, like I got into climbing and I immediately grabbed my best friend and I was like, Hey, you're learning how to play.

00:09:48:09 - 00:10:16:22
Unknown
And like I, I, we call him his, his nickname Linguini and poor Linguini. I dragged him everywhere and like, there's a photo of him, like on his first outdoor rock climb. It is like a zero 20 foot high ball without pads was like, I feel so bad for him, but I instantly had a climbing partner because I had a best friend and he liked it.

00:10:16:22 - 00:10:42:19
Unknown
Luckily, that's good. On linguine. Is he still your bowling partner? He is not. We stop climbing. Years ago, he kind of he he pursued music and he's actually very, very talented musician. Nice. Okay, Awesome. Good for him. That's sweet, man. yeah. So you've been climbing in these gyms. You know, you're kind of getting better. You're starting to pursue the outdoors and the interest in that.

00:10:42:19 - 00:11:13:01
Unknown
Like, what's that kind of progression like for you and, and how quickly, like, did you really get into knowing, like, Hey, I have a proclivity for this. I'm I'm good at this. And I want to excel at it. Yeah. So I think where I first started to learn that, like this is something that I can do and this is something that I can be good at is part of this time is I had a rope and I had Gregory and I had a harness, but I did not have drops.

00:11:13:03 - 00:11:41:16
Unknown
So that kind of left me to like there was one crag in Logan that had perma draws on it, and that's the China cave. I mean, the China caves really significant because at the time, you know, it was developed by Boone Speed and like people like Anthony Moody and like Bill Boyle. And so like at one point that had America's first this is debated but America's first 514 B which is super tweak but everything had perma draws.

00:11:41:18 - 00:12:01:12
Unknown
So I was kind of just starting to hangdog my way up these like routines and like there were some hard twelves and I would get nowhere close to even sending them. But the important part is I was able to go climb outside. Wow. See, you just went right into the gantlet. Yeah. And like, in my mind, I was like, well, it's overhanging.

00:12:01:12 - 00:12:25:12
Unknown
There's quick draws on the wall. I have a rope. Like, what could go wrong? Did anything ever go wrong? No. I'm definitely like, things should have gone long. Like, wrong. And I definitely took a ton out of the experience or out of the lucky jar and put it into the experience. Yeah, no, really interesting. And so kind of like throwing yourself into the gantlet for that.

00:12:25:14 - 00:12:46:19
Unknown
Did you ever have like an aversion to falling or fear, or did you find yourself kind of just back to that, like pulling out of the like jarred more of like this fearless individual just charging on and that worked in your favor. So I don't think I had like a large fear of falling in the beginning because ignorance is bliss, right?

00:12:46:21 - 00:13:20:01
Unknown
Like, I didn't know what could go wrong. And I just remember watching this clip of Mason Earl on Cobra crack, like taking these massive whimpers on to nuts. And I was like, that's just normal. Like, that is just rock climbing. And so, like, in the beginning, not so much. And then as I started to learn about, like, fall forces and like, what can actually go wrong and like hearing people have accidents, then I like, started to get scared and realize that this is a very real sport.

00:13:20:03 - 00:13:40:06
Unknown
Did you have any close calls yourself, like with gear or with like an accident where you're like, Wow, that could have really gone wrong. There is definitely some time. So I spent, you know, the last the last two years of my climbing career, I spent in Zion National Park and we were doing these. It's a little silly, but I love it.

00:13:40:06 - 00:14:09:14
Unknown
We were trying to recreate like big wall speed climbing in National Park. Me and my my main partner, Connor Baty, and it seemed like every single wall we did, like there was definitely like, that was like, but like, we definitely got away with something at some point on every wall that we did. Although early on in my tried climbing career, I did.

00:14:09:16 - 00:14:32:01
Unknown
No, I did not deck hard, but I ripped out the first piece. Wow. How high up were you? Wow. probably only ten. Okay, so do you guys are you guys familiar city rocks at all? I'm not. No, I've heard of it, but no. Okay, so there's this route. Chen River, the name of it. It's next to Short Circuit and it's on the right.

00:14:32:03 - 00:14:54:12
Unknown
But there's like, you climb up and there's this ledge, and then like, on one side of the ledge is the wall. And then there's another, like what we'll call, like almost like a fence, but it's also made out of rock. So what had happened is I had ripped out the first piece and then I fell into this chasm in between that like rock fence and the wall.

00:14:54:13 - 00:15:16:19
Unknown
And luckily, like, it could have gotten much worse if I would have fallen on the other side. And how did that how did that affect you psychologically? Like, was that a really a deterrent for you or were you still, you know, just like charge taking the bull by the horns? I think it first off, it scared me.

00:15:16:21 - 00:15:36:22
Unknown
But second off, like I was like, I need to get back on the horse. And I immediately, like, fired it. But I remember, like, I finally got to the top of the pitch from the top of the pitches a little bit, run out on easier chicken head climbing. And I was like, I'm really scared. Like, if I fall right now.

00:15:36:22 - 00:15:59:07
Unknown
And then that piece rips out just like I had a piece rip out at the beginning of this climb. Like it's going to go really poorly. And I think that was one of my first exposures to like a proper run out to. Yeah, I think it's interesting. We when we see a gear rip or we experience gear ripping firsthand, it kind of like opens this door of like, that can happen.

00:15:59:09 - 00:16:13:03
Unknown
And then all of a sudden you start to like your analyzation of risk changes because it's not like, if I fall, this piece is going to catch me and I'm going to take a whip. It's like, I'm going to fall. And like, what happens if this piece rips? What happens if both of them rip, you know?

00:16:13:03 - 00:16:30:13
Unknown
And it's like, you don't really know, you know, how well can you judge your own placement? Is that going to hold? You don't really know until you fall on it. You can be pretty certain, you know, depending on the raw quality and your placement and how well it is. But in the end, the one thing I've learned, it's like you don't really know until you fall on it.

00:16:30:15 - 00:16:54:23
Unknown
And it's just kind of like this haunting, haunting fact that we all live with as climbers. And it's a it's a little bit of a gamble. But I at least at this point, since I've already destroyed both my ankles, I don't have two more to spare. For me, it's like I'm going to climb. You know, I'm trapped, at least within a realm of capabilities where I'm pretty much in control.

00:16:54:23 - 00:17:25:14
Unknown
And then if I'm coming off the wall, it's because, like, something crazy happened. Yeah, but that's that's my own bias at this point. I think to elaborate on that, like if I were to analyze like my own climbing style, it's it's obviously like to someone who is a highly competent, capable, smooth rock climber moving well like this does, you're not describing me, you know, like I'm very much calculating based off of the kind of paradigm that you're talking about, which is like, if I fall on this piece and this piece rips, what's my next calculation era?

00:17:25:16 - 00:17:43:20
Unknown
You know what I mean? And how confident might in that piece because, you know, the severity factor can go up like so quick. And I'm like, I'm okay with that. I'm not, you know, big center, crazy climber. I'm going to take up an extra couple cams. I'm going to double up some pieces in a scarier area for myself personally.

00:17:43:20 - 00:18:05:11
Unknown
And and I'm going to climb through and I'm not going to calculate optimistically based on like, okay, well, if I fall, this is a clean fall. But if that piece rips, I'm going to like, you know, cheese grater myself on slab for 30 feet. It's like, I'm not going to take that like, calculation. I'm going to assume that piece would fail and like, what is the next piece that is going to be potentially helping me out, if that makes sense.

00:18:05:13 - 00:18:28:14
Unknown
And I think, you know, you already alluded to this landed, you know, back to our whole like Cobra crack analysis. Yeah. You know, it's like, well, of course, like if you if your climb is like this, like overhanging, you know, like bald, you're pulling you can go whip all day and just fly into free space. And it helps if you're, you know, professional climber like base and URL and placing great pieces as well, you know.

00:18:28:16 - 00:18:51:09
Unknown
But yeah, there's just so many factors into climbing that can affect so many things. Right? It's it's really, really interesting. Correct. And then early on, I was taught to aid climb and I think aid climbing that is the number one thing that gave me trust in my gear and taught me what holds and what doesn't hold.

00:18:51:11 - 00:19:06:12
Unknown
I think that was a sentiment. Who who who told us about that, Max? I forget, but it blew my mind when I heard that I was like, I think possibly it might have been right. Yeah, I was just like, because I was so against aid climbing, I was like, It's slow, it's boring, blah, blah, blah.

00:19:06:12 - 00:19:36:12
Unknown
You know, like I'm all about the movement and everything. And I never thought of it as a way to build a relationship with the gear. And to anybody listening, that's like trying to get into track climbing or went through a fall and is trying to rebuild trust. I know we've talked about this on the podcast before, but just like land and set a climb, get out there and stand on gear, get used to using the equipment and just like bounce on it, like sit on it, test on it, like understand what it's like under load without having to go take a whip on it.

00:19:36:12 - 00:19:59:02
Unknown
And, you know, if it fails, you break your ankles like it's not a very good game to play. Yeah. What Well, I like to tell aspiring climbers is first off, I asked them, do you know how to top rope? So if that answer is yes, what I then say is he okay, go, go top rope solo. But he'd climb your entire way up.

00:19:59:04 - 00:20:18:03
Unknown
Try to make your your fail. Try to place is awful. Is gear possible and see if it holds straight gear. See if it holds. Just play and see what holds you it as a whole. Also taking whispers with the back rope of the top rope is the backup is a top rope. Yes, it is. Yeah. I did that right after my accident.

00:20:18:03 - 00:20:49:13
Unknown
I was like, I need two players. I'm going to get one for the lead rope, one for the top rope, and I'm going to get this out some slack and I'm a take a whip. And it really helped me. I was like, wow, Like, this is amazing. It's it's a game changer. That's really, really good advice for someone to just build confidence, work on skills or even, hey, man, maybe you taking the entire winter off and you've been ice climbing and doing, you know, mountaineering or different things and you want to spend one day outside just beginning of your season and, you know, go do your suggestion plan and it just pop in.

00:20:49:13 - 00:21:16:03
Unknown
A million pieces work on them, pull on them rope solo, get a good physical dam. Like that's a really good way to probably start off the season and then also maybe take some some falls so land and you know you you came out of the gym you're projecting these really hard sport climbs pretty quickly. One thing that you said when we you know set up the meeting group for this podcast was that you were a reformed elitist.

00:21:16:05 - 00:21:34:16
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I'm personally super interested in this topic, so I hope you're willing to, to share a little bit about your mindset back in the day. At what point, I guess describe this mindset and describe how it kind of came to fruition. Like how did that manifest itself?

00:21:36:06 - 00:21:42:08
Unknown
If you've been enjoying the climbing majority, please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:21:42:08 - 00:21:49:01
Unknown
Yeah, so I think I'm going to start with the formation.

00:21:49:03 - 00:22:15:12
Unknown
And what that took me to reform is me taking a large break off of climbing and like spending more time around the average climber. I'm like, all three of my roommates are two nominal climbers and two of them are professional climbers. And like into speaking of them and how they handle climbing and how they talk to people, it was really like, like you're like a nice human.

00:22:15:17 - 00:22:38:05
Unknown
People respect you because of that. We're like me in my in my climbing time. Like, I was like a firm believer in like, well, like there's a chance that like, yeah, I like you got her on that route. You had no business being on it. Like you shouldn't have been there. Like, you know, I spent a lot of time in Xi'an, Xi'an, as my passion project.

00:22:38:05 - 00:23:07:22
Unknown
It still is, but in different ways. But like people ending up moonlight buttress and keep in mind, like, I'm another climber, like I've, I've climbed hard eight I really like climbing, but like people climbing, like aid climbing moonlight buttress was just not okay with why I'm okay. So my view is that Moonlight buttress is one of the most classic free claims in North America.

00:23:08:00 - 00:23:39:23
Unknown
It's see one it takes, you know, like Indian Creek style gear the entire way up. What aid climbers do to that wall is, first off, they slow everything down. Now you have to pass parties. And if you're trying to climb the then corner off rocker blocker and there's some dude trying to figure out if it's a .4.5 in the back of the foot, like he's taken like an hour and a half and you're like, I'm trying to get up the wall.

00:23:40:00 - 00:24:01:14
Unknown
And now I've kind of just been like, just let people do what they want to do. Like people are just out here to have fun. Not everybody's out here trying to send the Darbar. You know, I think that's a such like an interesting point that you've brought up here. And I think like most things in life, there's so much a nuance and complexity to them and you can kind of analyze them from both sides.

00:24:01:18 - 00:24:21:13
Unknown
And, you know, for me, I'm never going to be free climbing the moonlight border. So, you know, like I might be able to aid climate, but at the same time, I completely like, let's even just extrapolate to a different scenario. You're some guy the moon lights your goal. You've been climbing, you know, a year training for it. You fly out down to Zion.

00:24:21:18 - 00:24:45:06
Unknown
This is like one of the only days you can get on and you go there and there's like a party just like climbing, like holding up the entire route. I think that's a that's a really interesting point to discuss is like, I think ultimately everybody has a right to be on climbs. But I do think, yeah, some of the harder, more classic climbs, that is a really interesting, complex thing.

00:24:45:06 - 00:25:02:06
Unknown
Like you could say the same thing about like the nose on el cap, you know, you're like not experienced enough, you can't move correctly and you just yeah, you're stuck for two days like you're on the great roof or whatever. And like, there's like five parties behind you all just sitting there baking in the sun, watching their water going down.

00:25:02:06 - 00:25:23:15
Unknown
It's like there there are like, this is a sport that and this happens can be done in relation to other people like that is it's not just this like you know satellite yourself out in space doing this. It's like your your actions can affect other people. So I don't know. I do struggle with that. I think everybody has a right to climb.

00:25:23:18 - 00:25:42:17
Unknown
But then at the same time, there is nuance and complexity in that like and I can tell I can see it from either story, either side, you know what I mean? Correct. And, you know, and and what I would tell people is like, well, why are you climbing me? Like, buttress Why wouldn't you go across the river to Touchstone, like touchstones of the similar grade?

00:25:42:19 - 00:26:06:08
Unknown
There is a C to pitch an unpopular opinion. You can do it ac1 if you know the right gear. But and like that's a very similar climb that you could go aid climb and not, you know, break away from the predominant style that that route is done. And can you explain the C grade to our audience? Kate So there's okay, I'm going to go in a little more depth.

00:26:06:08 - 00:26:38:21
Unknown
So there's two types of aid climbing grades. There's A and there C, C means clean your placing Cam's nuts hooks and cam hooks on you don't use cam hooks on sandstone, and occasionally you're placing beaks and pitons, but you're not hammering them in and altering the route where A is you are hammering into the rock. But then in part of that, you know you have A or C zero, we'll just call it See for now, you know, we have C zero.

00:26:38:23 - 00:27:23:04
Unknown
And what that would look like is if you were to fall, you will not rip any gear and you will take a very small fall on C one. You are very unlikely to rip gear, although if you were to it would be, you know, anywhere from a 1 to 2 piece fall C two if you so you are going to start seeing body weight only placements, but you're only going to see 1 to 2 of them and if you do RIP one, you're starting to look into bigger falls anywhere and you know, and it's and it's very subjective, but you're looking anywhere from like 5 to 10 to even up to 15 feet falls, depending

00:27:23:04 - 00:27:47:05
Unknown
on how good your gear is. And that's the hard thing about calling your Route C to when I was early on in my career, I took a 40 foot whipper on ac2 because I was bad at placing gear. But then now C three, we start to get into like real fall zones and I've climbed cc3 and seen fall zones of anywhere from ten feet to 70 feet.

00:27:47:07 - 00:28:25:15
Unknown
You can start hitting ledges, you can start like hurting yourself, but maybe when you fall, you're not going to bail. We're like a four. Like if you take a large whipper on C or a four, like you're going to start getting severe bodily harm and then, you know, a five, you die if you fall. Now, we haven't had any confirmed a five cases, but, you know, I've heard that a five it's like not only are you like leading out on these like sky hooks for multiple placements, but your partner's anchor is also those hooks too, correct?

00:28:25:15 - 00:28:45:07
Unknown
Correct. And I've I've never climbed Sierra five, like I have never climbed a four or five. So like, I can't attest to that personally. But it's yeah, it sounds heinous, but it's not. So like, here's the thing. Like, I remember I was sitting at work one day with a colleague of mine and he was a very competent aid climber.

00:28:45:07 - 00:29:10:01
Unknown
He'd climbed a lot of fours and I said, Well, you know, I said the statement, aid climbing is kind of like gambling. It's a lot of fun. But sometimes you get burned and sometimes you have a high reward. And he said, No, it's not at all like gambling. It is highly calculated because in your bounce tests, you can generate enough force to determine if this piece is going to fail or not.

00:29:10:03 - 00:29:27:21
Unknown
Yeah, I could see that until you bounce, test it too much and then you ripped the next eight pieces below you. But if your bounce testing rate, if your bounce testing rate, then you're going to rip that piece, but you're not going to generate extra force on the piece you're standing on while you're bounce test. Okay. All right.

00:29:27:23 - 00:29:51:20
Unknown
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, there's a right way to do everything right. yeah. Now, that being said, I have bounced tested pieces and ripped. Bitch. Yeah. Yes. There's also a right way to die. There is the wrong way to die. Yeah. No aid climbing. It sucks to die. I'd be really embarrassing. Yeah, Nice. Okay. Yeah.

00:29:51:20 - 00:30:14:20
Unknown
Thanks for the explanation. I want to dive back into the. The kind of mindset we were talking about before. So, you know, the Moonlight Buttress example is a pretty specific example. I'm, you know, and maybe this isn't you particularly, but at least in my experience, you are the closest person that I've spoken with that has kind of said that he's had this mentality before.

00:30:14:22 - 00:30:37:21
Unknown
And so I'm just going to lay out some examples of what I've noticed in terms of like, you know, I'm a part of the majority. Max is part of the majority. We represent the climbing majority. And I think that a lot of us see a lot of negativity on whether it be Instagram or especially Mountain Project forums where, you know, like for instance, I posted my my accident report and people are like, you're going to die.

00:30:37:21 - 00:30:57:19
Unknown
You should never climb again. Like, you know, fucking idiot, blah, blah, blah, or Instagram. You know, I run a P.O.V. channel. Like there's some people that come on and be like everyone that climbs with the fucking GoPro. Is it up or whatever? I got to be completely honest with you, Kyle. I feel like at some point I left a mean comment on your I, I got to just be completely comfortable.

00:30:57:20 - 00:31:25:21
Unknown
There is probably like 18 year old me. Like, what the fuck is he doing? Okay, perfect. So that's totally fine. I appreciate the honesty. So, you know, we have a large group of people entering the sport. A lot of people are doing it recreationally, You know, once a weekend, maybe less. It's all about fun. It's all about just, you know, there's, you know, the psych level is the same whether you're climbing 13 or five eight for your first time, like it's climbing is such a special sport that way.

00:31:25:21 - 00:31:45:16
Unknown
Because for regardless of what level you're at, the experience is so overwhelming and engaging. And so it's like this magical thing for a lot of people, and so people like to share it. And so I agree there's a, there's a segment of people that are creating content and out there just being fucking idiots. Like they're not safe, they're putting people in bad positions.

00:31:45:16 - 00:32:11:08
Unknown
They're doing things that are, you know, not according to the culture. And those people I get the judgment. But there's also this realm of like, you know, if you're not a good climber, you're going to get shit on. Or if you're, you know, a GoPro, like you're going to get shit on this. So talk to us a little bit about kind of like that mentality that some of the climbers have and you know, what that perspective is like for.

00:32:11:10 - 00:32:42:01
Unknown
So and, you know, I think a large part in these elitist behaviors between, you know, GoPros and people doing their, quote, Gumby things is a lot of worry about getting areas and shut down and accidents happening and people wanting to protect what's theirs and having a hard time sharing crags with other people and having a hard time seeing other people in new areas, maybe having a hard time seeing people in areas that they hadn't seen people in before.

00:32:42:03 - 00:33:12:03
Unknown
But, you know, the GoPro comes out and suddenly like it's easier to find these areas because the videos or people get hurt. And now this area that was actually probably we shouldn't have been climbing in in the first place is shut down. And I think people are really, really scared of change and people are worried that this new scene will change things in which I'd argue that if we're doing things correctly, more than anything, if somebody is doing something sketchy, that is a teaching opportunity.

00:33:12:03 - 00:33:30:00
Unknown
This is an opportunity for you to be a dick. That's an opportunity for you to walk up and be like, Hey, man, like, I think what you're doing is a little bit dangerous. Can I give you some advice? Yeah, yeah, we've we've talked about that before. It's definitely an opportunity for teaching. And we talked to Cody, the late Cody Bradford about that.

00:33:30:02 - 00:33:46:12
Unknown
it's just like there's, yeah, there's, there's lessons there and there's ways to go about it. I think that unfortunately though in the digital space you can't really like. DM Somebody and be like, Hey man, you know, that was fucking stupid. Let me teach you something because I don't know how well that's going to be received. It depends.

00:33:46:14 - 00:34:18:09
Unknown
Well, so Kyle, I want to play devil's advocate for you real quick. In the aviation community, you know, in base jumping, speed flying, paragliding, there is a there's a progression that people see and there's sustainability. And if you progress too fast, you know, we have this competency level and we have this confidence level. And if your confidence starts gaining but your competence is low, you're going to start getting hurt.

00:34:18:09 - 00:34:40:06
Unknown
And we see this a lot and we see people that have been in the sport for three or four months and they're already doing things that our people started doing three or four years and people will reach out and say, Hey, like we've noticed you're progressing really fast, like we've seen this cycle before. We've seen people get hurt and that's a pretty regular thing that happens.

00:34:40:08 - 00:34:58:09
Unknown
And you know, some people, you know, it just is like, hey, I don't want to I don't want anything to do with you. Leave me alone. And other people are very, very take it well and it helps them. Yeah. I think that's such like I commonality like as far as like online, you know communication like I totally agree with you.

00:34:58:09 - 00:35:36:00
Unknown
I think there's room for either or. And I also think like the general blanket rule for online, at least in my mind, is just the nature of the modality for communication is so promoting to people who want to be hateful or negative or comment. And so I think that's never going to go away. And I think part of that also as people online is to just understand, to not not take things super personally, even if people are being mean to you calling you out, attacking you, it's like you can't control what that person is saying or doing, you know?

00:35:36:01 - 00:35:56:04
Unknown
And I know that's easier said than done, especially for so many different circumstance is out there. But realistically, like that is probably the best thing we have possible is to just try and, you know, rise above essentially like you can't control that person's doing. You're most likely not going to have a constructive conversation with the guy who's like, Yo, fuck you, you suck on mine.

00:35:56:04 - 00:36:22:20
Unknown
It's like, like this is not like in your like 40 character limit. Like, like fighting them in the comment section. It's like, this is not constructive at all, but there is an opportunity to leave criticism in constructive manners for people, I think, and to reach out to direct message people. You know, I completely agree with that. And, you know, like Kyle and I've talked about that as well before too, with like, you know, your your description of competency and confidence.

00:36:22:20 - 00:36:41:09
Unknown
Right. You know, good example. This would be like. Nathan, we just talked to him on the show. This guy is such a capable, unbelievable athlete. Amazing, like nothing negative to say about him, but he just got to do I think it's paragliding. And like Dumont said, he's like, broken his pelvis by like hitting his ass or something, you know?

00:36:41:09 - 00:37:05:14
Unknown
And I think that's something so common in like flying sport. But yeah, no, it's but yeah, so, you know, there is this kind of whole dynamic of like online, but I think to like address like, you know, the whole previous thing of what we were talking about is like and this is placating to the moon flower, but buttress and so many other things as does a climber have less intrinsic worth because they are worse at climbing.

00:37:05:15 - 00:37:30:14
Unknown
And I think that's a question that this community has to really ask itself. And, you know, if we go historically into climbing, it's this rebellious, hardcore, you know, culture of just people fuck you attitude, doing insane things, dying, risking their lives, doing these unbelievable feats, whether it's rock climbing, mountaineering, ice climbing, you name it, you know, like that is the culture.

00:37:30:19 - 00:37:58:17
Unknown
And now it's, of course, like going through this evolution of becoming mainstream. And as you become more mainstream and you have so much more adoption through the general population that, you know, our air quotes majority, you now have this kind of like shared space and interaction and dynamic. And I think that's the fundamental question that we are getting at here, is do you have less intrinsic worth in the climbing community if you don't climb as hard as somebody?

00:37:58:19 - 00:38:24:08
Unknown
Well, and yeah, it's interesting you bring that up because something that I used to say and I actually strongly disagree with this, but something that I used, I really thought this is true. There are climbers and there are people who climb. I totally get I like I don't want to project, but I, I get the distinction. You're saying, though, I think you can word that in a different way now, depending on how you're thinking about it.

00:38:24:10 - 00:38:55:02
Unknown
But like, yeah, like if I was going to like, play myself into shoes of that, that like style thinking, it's like to me a climbers, like somebody who like it's a lifestyle, they live like eat and breathe, climbing and they are like they are, they are good climbers, generally good, of course, objective depending on the level. But now the weird thing is you can get somebody totally under that paradigm in mindset, lives in a van, eats, sleeps and breathes climbing, and all they do is climb five, eight.

00:38:55:04 - 00:39:10:18
Unknown
You know, they might climb 200 days a year and just go around the world just like smashing all the sickest five aids. And it's like, Well, what are you going to say is a guy because he's not, you know, like on sighting 12 sport or something. He's not a climber. It's like, I would argue like that's that's insane.

00:39:10:18 - 00:39:46:20
Unknown
Like style of adventure. And you're also adhering to the adventure and the lifestyle, you know? So, yeah, it's really interesting. And honestly, that five eight climber is probably having a lot more fun. Yeah, yeah. Just saying I'm curious Lane, into how you think about this. So I think that the one sense of frustration I could totally understand from a climber versus a person who climbs is that a climber takes it seriously, is potentially trying to get recognized for their athletic accomplishments as a climber.

00:39:46:20 - 00:40:13:05
Unknown
Maybe that's sponsorship or recognition on social media or recognition through their peers. And there's these people that come out with their GoPros or, you know, they come out on Instagram filming the most, you know, Guppy shit ever and they're blowing up on Instagram. And I could see how there would be like a sense of frustration of like, well, I've dedicated my entire life to climbing and I'm climbing way harder than this person.

00:40:13:10 - 00:40:38:07
Unknown
Why is this person getting more attention than me? And I could see a bit of resentment or frustration with like where our attention is as a as a media source and what we find entertaining. And also just the fact that there are you know, there are so many hard climbers now that it's really hard to stand out without also bringing something else to the table.

00:40:38:09 - 00:41:08:08
Unknown
Yeah, it seems now that too. And to be a professional climber, you have to. Rhodes In my opinion, you can be an influencer or you can be in the top two percentile. You can go on social media and you can build a platform and it doesn't matter how hard you climb and and it doesn't really matter in the end how hard you climb anyway.

00:41:08:10 - 00:41:36:00
Unknown
But you can build a platform and you can become a professional climber or an influencer that way, or you can be a freak of nature and climb and climb out of the womb. Yes, Yes you are. You are doing ten points out of out of. Yeah, no, but I agree, man. I think that it's an interesting position we're in.

00:41:36:02 - 00:41:55:03
Unknown
You know, there was a small point in my life where I was like chasing some sort of career in climbing. And, you know, it was a very ignorant view just because I didn't really understand what I was even getting myself into one and two. I had no idea what climbing hard was. And so it was a fun pipe dream.

00:41:55:03 - 00:42:17:18
Unknown
But you know, it's just like you have to be, you know, born and raised and you have to be not only that, you have to be genetically gifted to be pushing the sport as it currently stands and that that realm of influence is just going to get harder and harder to push. And so, you know, people who just climb on the weekends or even people who live out of their van and go climbing across the country, it's like it's just not enough anymore.

00:42:17:18 - 00:42:42:09
Unknown
You can't you can't just live that lifestyle and expect to be some sort of recognized climber. And on top of that, even if you are a crusher, if you don't have a personality that sells products or sells brands, no brand is going to partner with you if you're a fucking asshole or if you're awkward and you can't talk to people or you know, you don't want to talk to people, you just want to hide in your van and you just want to climb like that's not marketable either.

00:42:42:09 - 00:43:12:10
Unknown
And so it's like, we're in this world. You have to have multiple skills. That's exactly what I was going to bring up next. Like, if I personally were a brand, I would not care how hard anybody climbed. I would only care how much product Nestle now in. Max and I have talked about this and I won't go into any specifics, but I think there is a dark side to that because there are certain influencers that are getting sponsorships that I personally don't feel like should.

00:43:12:11 - 00:43:41:17
Unknown
And you know, it is a little bit sad that there is like a group of people that I wouldn't even call climbers at all like and are still getting some representation. And so it's like obviously the spectrum swings and there's people, you know, you have to have the full spectrum of everything. But I also see frustration where it's like, it sucks that that certain things still sell and that's just a representation of our society.

00:43:41:19 - 00:44:08:22
Unknown
Yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. I think too, to add on to that, Kyle is climbing is such a unique sport in my estimation, which could be really biased in a lot of ways because I love it. But I feel there's so many climbing athletes out there who, if they had applied the same work ethic and genetic potential into like a team sport such as, you know, hockey or soccer, they'd be getting paid millions of dollars.

00:44:09:00 - 00:44:39:18
Unknown
And instead we have these people who are, you know, their entire soul just dedicated. They can beans and live out of vans and climb like five, 14, B and C on gear. And they get paid minimally and they're essentially just top tier genetics freak pro athletes on the globe who if you were that talented in a team sport, you get paid millions and millions of dollars and you'd have resources and training centers and health care.

00:44:39:20 - 00:45:04:01
Unknown
Where is like in climbing because it's this weird, rebellious kind of lifestyle and almost, I would argue, an art as opposed to just your physicality. There is this lack of funding and support which ideally in the future is going to change as climbing gets mainstream. More great to see athletes and these people in these kind of tiers receive more support, but that's something that is really unique to it.

00:45:04:01 - 00:45:24:03
Unknown
You and I could understand that, Hey, I'm this person, I'm a pro climber. I've dedicated my whole life to this. I'm I'm, you know, amazing. And I'm like literally just like, sacrificing everything in my life to chase this dream. And then some person, you know, like, you know, just comes along and doesn't have remotely the investment or anything.

00:45:24:03 - 00:45:45:14
Unknown
But they're better at making social media videos and using Instagram. And so they get like all the sponsorships you've been working your whole life for. It's like, of course I could sympathize with that. And on some level that feels I don't want to use the word wrong. I totally understand that. Like, that is a very understandable position. Absolutely, for sure.

00:45:45:15 - 00:46:12:16
Unknown
Yeah, that's complicated, man. You know what? And quite frankly, you know who I think is our real professional climbers guides? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And honestly, they don't get as much love as they should. dude, the client's always trying to kill you or themselves. Where that comes from, some sort of experience. Where have you. You have friends that are guides, like, talk to us about that.

00:46:12:18 - 00:46:35:05
Unknown
You know, I spent. So let's see. I moved to St George when I was 18, and then from 18 to 20 I was a rock guide and a can. And you're engaged in St George. And that's what I, that's what I did to try to fund my dirtbag dream. And I've seen it all and it's don't ever can guide you.

00:46:35:05 - 00:46:54:04
Unknown
It's actually a lot of fun. I can't it's not that bad. But Canning guiding is adult babysitting at its finest. But you get to do it in a pretty cool place. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like it's work and you're out in Red Rock. Like, not red rocks the place, but like in red rocks and natural terrain. It's it's really, really fun.

00:46:54:06 - 00:47:13:06
Unknown
And on the flip side, in my experience, I got to see a lot of and I don't want to talk too negatively about it because I actually had a really, really positive experience. But you get to see a lot of people come in and trash the doors and that gives you an opportunity for teaching or betterment and resentment.

00:47:13:08 - 00:47:47:04
Unknown
Yeah, that too. So land and you know, you, you have this elitist mentality, you kind of reformed yourself and now you don't really climb at all. Is that correct? Yeah. You know, I the last time I climbed, so I was I was really curious and I was looking at my mountain project and the last time that I climbed, anything significant was was at the beginning of December and it was Monkey finger was my good friend Zac.

00:47:47:06 - 00:48:05:15
Unknown
And that's if you're not familiar, it's I think it's I want to say it's ten pitches. Don't quote me on that. 12 A in Zion National Park. And I was trying to do a read point Burn didn't send didn't send the monkey finger pitch If anybody's wondering is this is this is this December of this year? No, no.

00:48:05:15 - 00:48:35:10
Unknown
Last year. Last year, December 22. Okay. And then I moved to Salt Lake and I actually moved to Salt Lake to further pursue a new hobby. And I did a solo of the Great White Icicle. And then other than that, I climbed ancient art and that was the base jump off of climbing Castleton twice, both times base jump off and a little bit of single pitch cracking here and there.

00:48:35:12 - 00:49:02:03
Unknown
I'm just patiently waiting for the ice to come in. What was the switch like? Y you know, you were projecting desert gold. You had this, like I would say, proclivity to the sport. What was there? You know, the reason why I reached out in the first place was an Instagram post. You had made where you were kind of having it seemed like a little bit of an identity crisis, trying to understand like what your purpose was in life, maybe how you were supposed to support some sort of career.

00:49:02:05 - 00:49:28:04
Unknown
And that really resonated with me is because like after this injury, every focused on career and like, you know, it's really easy to have climbing be everything our identity, our value that we see ourselves as people. And when you know, you start to question whether climbing is what you're supposed to be doing. Now, you not only not climbing anymore, but you've reached this void of like, well, who the fuck am I?

00:49:28:04 - 00:49:36:03
Unknown
Like, what am I supposed to do with my life? So was that something that you went through? You know, talk to us about what that was like for you.

00:49:38:09 - 00:49:41:12
Unknown
If you've been enjoying the climbing majority, please rate and review

00:49:41:12 - 00:49:43:22
Unknown
us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:49:43:22 - 00:50:03:02
Unknown
Yeah, 100%. So kind of like the if I go back to the original question, the decline of my climbing was a mental health crisis. I'm my happiness was completely determined on my climbing ability, what I was climbing and what I was doing.

00:50:03:02 - 00:50:35:16
Unknown
And after some deep thinking, I realized that I was suffering so much in my day to day life from a lack of taking care of myself highly emotionally abusive relationship. And then just like ultimately, like really severe depression that I had done nothing about, absolutely nothing about that. When I was climbing, I was able to suffer a little less I so I could go to heinous, heinous roots.

00:50:35:18 - 00:50:59:21
Unknown
And it was awful suffering roots a lot of times really wide. And it didn't matter because I was still suffering less in my day to day life. It is really, really easy to climb hard when your only purpose is to climb hard. It's your job. I'm sure that most people are semi-decent at their job because that's what they do every day.

00:50:59:23 - 00:51:25:02
Unknown
If you feel like your job is to climb, then I'm not going to see. It's easy to a professional climber because it's obviously not, but it's easier if that's the own. That's your only motive in life. But then the moment that you drop off, that you fall off that plateau, that suddenly you don't know who you are, you don't know what you're doing, what you're like, why did you choose to stop?

00:51:25:07 - 00:51:55:00
Unknown
Like if if it was what was pulling you out of, you know, your, your, your particular situation in your life? Why did you want to stop climbing instead of like diving into it deeper. Correct. So, so to to answers that question. Answer one is an easy answer. It's a copout answer. I found another hobby that I was highly passionate about, that I could focus my time and energy into.

00:51:55:02 - 00:52:18:07
Unknown
Answer number two is I deeply notice that my self esteem of myself and my happiness of the day was completely determined on how my climbing was. I feel like all of us have been at the Crag and we've watched somebody throw a fit at the crag because I couldn't climb a roof. That was me and I'm really embarrassed by that, quite frankly.

00:52:18:08 - 00:52:40:19
Unknown
But climbing wasn't always a healthy thing for me. It wasn't always. It went from a healthy outlet to express myself and get my energy out to like a form of self-hatred and the self-harm. Did you deal with depression and anxiety or anything of the sort before climbing, or did it start developing? Well, you know, well, you know, I think it was so yes and no.

00:52:40:19 - 00:53:12:15
Unknown
So like I did deal with it throughout my teenage in my childhood years, but not to the severity. And then, you know, mental health issue starts to come up in males from, you know, like age 18 to 24. And I think it just happened to be that time. And, you know, I refused to go to therapy. I refused to take medication or refused to do anything about it other than, you know, go set myself up on a rock climb, you know, on a 20 foot rock climb with a single rack of CAMHS and like a mentality of like, well, we're just going to simul climb the entire thing and we're not going to take any

00:53:12:15 - 00:53:40:01
Unknown
food or baby gear because we'll be up so fast. We'll be back by lunch. Yeah, yeah. There is this really interesting, I don't know phenomenon. Maybe it's the wrong word, but at least, you know, this is my experience that I've noticed in climbing is there is this large proclivity of people who just, like, adhere to climbing, who are in some capacity in their lives trouble or suffering or searching for something.

00:53:40:01 - 00:54:03:08
Unknown
And climbing tends to be this outlet that kind of fills the hole, you know, for a while, like void, that emptiness that just like, you know, is like kind of all consuming in your life. Like it fills that for a while. And in some ways, maybe you can find a healthy relationship with it. And in other ways, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it seems like you're alluding to climbing was a Band-Aid.

00:54:03:10 - 00:54:38:10
Unknown
You know, it wasn't fixing a problem. It was just, you know, covering the gaping wound, being like, well, when I go do this, the Band-Aids not, you know, and then you go stop doing it and you tear the Band-Aid off or like you have a bad day out and your Band-Aid actually ends up making things worse, essentially. And that seems to be a phenomenon that I think is, you know, pretty consistent in the climbing community, know a lot of people who really like climbing in the majority of people that I climb with in all forms of mountain sports, whether that's like trail running or anything, or aerobics sports or rock climbing, ice climbing, they all

00:54:38:10 - 00:55:01:11
Unknown
have a proclivity for like masochistic slash, like punishing behavior. And when you're punishing yourself so hard, you can't you're not thinking about, you know, the state you feel when you're at home, you know, like how depressed you are, how unhappy you are with yourself or any of these issues. You're just so absorbed in the moment and the beauty of the environment and all these things.

00:55:01:17 - 00:55:19:10
Unknown
And that's amazing. And I love it. And it's such a huge part of my life. But in a lot of capacities, that can also be a Band-Aid, right? Like if you're getting home and you're more and more depressed day after day and you know, you're still not dealing with your issues and you're only feeling good when you're climbing, then you're not actually making progress in your life.

00:55:19:12 - 00:55:40:15
Unknown
You're just using climbing to fill the void. And that's like a really important distinction, I think, for people, right, Max? You you hit the nail on the head. That is exactly how I felt. It's yeah, it's when you're suffering in the mountains, you can't think about anything except for your suffering. The mountains, you know, you're not worried about your problems at home.

00:55:40:15 - 00:56:10:09
Unknown
You're not worried about your problems at work, like in your mental state. You're just like, Wow, I'm really tired. I need to get to the top so I can repel so bland. And what was what was missing? And with this new sport that you've gotten into, is it another band aid or have you solved some of the underlying foundational problems that were kind of creeping into your life when you quit climbing?

00:56:10:11 - 00:56:35:06
Unknown
Yeah. So I think a big thing, a big, big thing was I was not taking care of myself at all. I was I would climb, I would eat as many calories as I could or sometimes none at all, depending on what my climbing next day looked like, which is really, really bad. And now I'm able to take care of myself.

00:56:35:08 - 00:57:04:04
Unknown
I'm able to stop and think about how I'm doing. I'm able to talk to other people about it and another big thing is, you know, in speed flying, paragliding, base jumping is highly weather dependent. You can't do it every day. And so is climbing. But I think you're forced to deal with your problems because if you're having mental problems and, you're on an exit point and you're about to base jump.

00:57:04:04 - 00:57:32:22
Unknown
Well, you're going to get really close to being a fatality. Like you have to deal with those problems or you're going to die. If you can't, you can't be suicidal and base jump sustainably for a long time. Would you say that a large portion of of base jumpers have suicidal tendencies? No, I would actually argue that. Okay. So I think there's two crowds.

00:57:32:23 - 00:58:00:21
Unknown
One crowd is I want to go get rowdy with my friends and the other crowd. It would be highly calculated humans and I would argue that a lot of the highly calculated humans are there because they want to do they want to fly. They have that primal instinct of wanting to fly and the people getting rowdy. Yeah, they have a little bit of mental problems for sure.

00:58:00:23 - 00:58:20:18
Unknown
If I look at my group of friends, I would argue that a lot of them do have mental problems. But I don't want to generalize base jumpers because you know, a lot a lot of like the common thing is like, like base jumpers must be suicidal, which is just not true. Like nobody wants to go in. Nobody wants to see their friends go in.

00:58:20:19 - 00:58:42:21
Unknown
Like that is horrific. Yeah, nobody wants to be scrolling through Facebook and see their homies name pop up on the BFL Facebook. How did your how did your family maybe accept this new sport? Like what's that dynamic like for them? Are they supportive? You know, a lot of banks tells that, okay, so this it's really interesting that you bring this up.

00:58:42:23 - 00:59:03:20
Unknown
At first they didn't know because I kind of like I like as a climber you know watching Valley Uprising we'd see Dean Potter, you know, flying a wingsuit through Yosemite. It's just fucking crap. And I would like show these clips to my parents, like, hey, what do you think about this? And it was like, This is awful. This is awful.

00:59:03:20 - 00:59:23:23
Unknown
You know, keep in mind, like, my dad is yeah, my dad is a severe adrenaline addict. Like, okay, I like growing up. Like, I remember when I was eight years old, I remember visiting him in the hospital because he stuck his bone out of his arm in three different places on a 125 foot double, writing it there. my God.

00:59:24:01 - 00:59:48:11
Unknown
He drives Sportscars really fast. Like I would I would almost argue that I was ready to do this sports, whatever that means. But I slowly started to give them this like idea and they're like, No. And eventually my mother told me these words land. And if you ever get into base jumping, I will cut you out of the family.

00:59:48:13 - 01:00:08:16
Unknown
yeah. So for a long time I didn't tell her. Yeah, for about my first hundred and 20 base jumps, she did not know until finally, somehow it kind of slipped through the cracks, you know, as all lies do. Yeah. And then, you know, as of last month, me and my mother had a conversation on the phone about base jumping.

01:00:08:18 - 01:00:33:22
Unknown
She told me she tried to research it as much as possible. And I just, like, explained to her like, this is something that I do really want to do. I'm really passionate about it. I've never been drawn to something so far in my life. I've never known that I wanted to do something so badly. And my parents have always been highly supportive of my dreams and they were surprisingly like, I don't think I don't think they're like, they're not glad I'm doing it.

01:00:33:22 - 01:00:55:16
Unknown
They're not happy I'm doing it, but they're not mad. You know, They're very like neutral. But I think they'd prefer that I don't. As with any good. Yeah. If my kid came to me saying I want to get into base, I would probably be like, Absolutely Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's I think the allure is there. At least in my eyes.

01:00:55:16 - 01:01:15:07
Unknown
I'm an adrenaline junkie as well. It's like obviously jumping off a cliff and and succeeding and not killing yourself is probably one of the coolest fucking things on the earth that a human can do. But you know, the risks there are real. And I think that it's interesting. And you said like it's, you know, they're the rowdy bunch.

01:01:15:07 - 01:01:38:08
Unknown
And then there's the highly calculated bunch. And at least for me, like I would tend, I feel like I'd lean more towards the the calculated bunch. But I think the Rowdy Bunch is so fine. I'm not sure if I would like I don't know. With climbing, I take on an inherent amount of risk, you know, like I don't really know if the track placements are going to hold, but I climb anyway.

01:01:38:10 - 01:01:56:13
Unknown
And but like that, margin for risk is a lot smaller with base jumping. It's like, I like, I don't know, like the amount of planning and stuff that would go into it. I'm not sure that I would like be willing to like, spend as much time meticulously making sure that I wouldn't kill myself. Well, and that's actually what I like.

01:01:56:15 - 01:02:23:21
Unknown
So I do primarily slider off base jumping, meaning that we're typically jumping smaller objects, taking 0 to 4 second delays. Typically no more than three 4 seconds really hurts your back. But like and then you know slider up you know there is something that slows the opening of the parachute so people are jumping at terminal velocity you know, jumping like large cliffs in Yosemite.

01:02:23:21 - 01:02:50:15
Unknown
Louder. Brennan And I actually don't have a ton of interest in doing that. What I really like is I like the the meticulous planning and the the analysis of the object and trying to figure like I'm trying to figure out a way to see this out incriminating myself. I really like urban base jumping because of the the what it takes to do it successfully.

01:02:50:17 - 01:03:13:14
Unknown
The process like the jump, it only lasts. You know, you fall for 3 seconds maybe if the objects tall enough and then you're flying the dumbest canopy on the planet, the canopies are really easy to fly and people are going to get mad at me for saying that, but they are on its you have action for like a minute and.

01:03:13:14 - 01:03:45:04
Unknown
That's fun. But I really, really like the process. Let's let's wrap this up. Talking about speed speed flying real quick because to me, honestly, I feel like speak flying must almost is more dangerous than base jumping is true. I don't think so. Okay. That being said, that being said, the amount of friends that have gotten hurt based jumping in the last six months that I know personally that are in my circle are zero.

01:03:45:06 - 01:04:08:16
Unknown
Now, I would like to argue that more base jumpers have fatalities in accidents. Now, speed flying. I'm going to name names. I just had a really good friend break both his ankles and his back in American Fork Canyon. A couple of months before that, I had a good friend break his leg a couple of months before that I had a few friends break their back to this.

01:04:08:16 - 01:04:25:13
Unknown
I think this is not wingsuit. This is like the the like the smaller canopy and you're like where you do a thing. So. Right here, let me let me explain. Speed flying because I think base jumping is like pretty like everybody knows it. That is like, you know, the explosion of YouTube and GoPro kind of showed that to everybody.

01:04:25:15 - 01:04:55:09
Unknown
But what speed flying is is so it breaks off from paragliding. So paragliding is is taking a Ram air airfoil, which is basically an inflatable glider wing and going and flying off mountaintops and trying to stay in the air for as long as possible or speed flying is is we took these paragliders and, you know, we'll say a standard paraglider is 20 to 24 square meters in surface area.

01:04:55:11 - 01:05:18:22
Unknown
Well, you know, a speed wing is anywhere from six meters in surface area to 15 meters in surface area. So you're going a lot faster. And instead of trying to stay up for long periods of time, you're just closer to downhill mountain biking. We are trying to get from point A to point B as fast as possible. And with as much contact, contact with the terrain as possible.

01:05:19:00 - 01:05:41:19
Unknown
So you're trying to do barrel rolls and dives to stay and fly the train because, you know, speed is only relative to the objects around you. You know, you could be traveling hundreds of miles per hour in an airplane, but it's going to feel like you're doing nothing. But the moment you know, you're flying 60 miles per hour an inch off the train, it's like, my gosh, I am going highly fast.

01:05:41:21 - 01:06:01:06
Unknown
But it is really dangerous. And I think it can be done sustainably. I have friends that have done it for years and never had an accident or, you know, only had one accident or you can rush your progression. I rest my progression. Quite frankly, I don't want to hide that. And you can break yourself. Yeah, I guess the closer seems like the margin for error is pretty small.

01:06:01:10 - 01:06:25:04
Unknown
The margin for error. Exactly. Yeah, correct. And you know, the drive towards speed flying for me is it is incredibly fun. It is probably the most fun I've ever had in my entire life. I was talking to an ex-professional climber who actually used to speed fly and he said, yeah, I think that's the most fun I've ever had.

01:06:25:06 - 01:06:50:07
Unknown
Where base jumping for me is more of a tool. It is easier to get off rock climbs, base jumping, speed flying, and that originally the thought process is I was going to get into air sports to have a better way to descend from mountains and that actually is my end goal. I'm not going to be in climbing retirement forever, but I'm just waiting for motivation to hit or when I feel the need to seek it out.

01:06:50:09 - 01:07:18:16
Unknown
man. Yeah, I think that's the the gold standard is to climb up and fly off. Right off. Yeah. I mean, that's the like. Yeah, that's. That's the gold standard. Well, and here, you know what? You know, it does get better than that, Max. So I'm to alpinist. I'm going to butcher their names. One guy's name is Will, and I can't remember the other man's name, but there is an article about this probably in Rock and Ice or actually magazine.

01:07:18:16 - 01:07:41:09
Unknown
And then they put out a short film. I highly encourage people to watch it. It's called A New Way Up. And what they did is in Pakistan, they took cross-country paragliders and they flew their paragliders into the karakorum into the deep mountains of Pakistan. What would usually be a three day trek, put up a first ascent, and then they flew their paragliders back.

01:07:41:11 - 01:08:02:16
Unknown
You know, typically this would be a7a ten day trip roundtrip. They did this in three days. Round trip? Now, what I want to do is I would love to go and fly across country, paragliders somewhere deep into the mountains, set up a base camp and then climb these mountains and then speed, fly down them, and then fly paragliders.

01:08:02:16 - 01:08:21:07
Unknown
That's my. And I don't like talking about things before I do them, but that's my end goal is if I can figure out how to make this work. Have you coined the term for that yet? It sounds like the infinity loop or fact. Like what's this one called? So it's already been termed and I guess not with speed flying.

01:08:21:07 - 01:08:40:10
Unknown
I think just speed flying. Something that I want to add to the mix because I think speed flying super rad, but I think it'd be considered para alpine ism. So like, you know, paragliding, albinism. So like right now the people pushing that sport would be like, what comes to my mind is like David Chen, Undercover Crusher. Nobody knows who he is.

01:08:40:10 - 01:09:02:19
Unknown
He's this Kiwi who is amazing Alpinist an amazing paraglider. I highly recommend you guys get him on if you can on. His partner is Cedar, right? okay. Yeah. Cedar. I know. I see him fly a whole bunch. Yeah. Yeah. And Cedar is a fantastic one. He's he's one of the better cross-country paragliding pilots and obviously a phenomenal rock climber.

01:09:02:21 - 01:09:22:22
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. But I thought it was funny. They did a trip to Pakistan together to. Go do some optimism. And I don't think the weather and I don't know this, but I think the weather didn't quite work out properly and they ended up flying and then getting to do some bouldering and then getting to climb like a three pitch rock climb and then fly back.

01:09:22:22 - 01:09:46:21
Unknown
But even still, like that is awesome. The multi-sport adventure. If all you did was just fly in, fly out, it would be awesome. So say goodbye to your hiking likes. Everyone's going to get lazy. I know I've more than I ever had in my entire life. well, awesome, man. I think, you know, that's a great place to leave it.

01:09:46:23 - 01:10:02:16
Unknown
Thanks for coming on the show, man. I feel like we had a really awesome conversation. Appreciate you taking the time out of your day. And yeah, I just appreciate you being here. No, thank you for having me. That's the first time I've ever done something like this. I was pretty nervous, but I'm happy I got the experience to do it.

01:10:02:16 - 01:10:20:04
Unknown
And thank you, guys. Yeah, man, No, is great having you on the show. And, dude, you seem like a total natural man. You spoke really well. It was great experience chatting with you. I honestly would not have guessed that you were. You know, you said you're 21, right? Yeah. That's crazy, man. You've got, you know, so many amazing years ahead of you.

01:10:20:04 - 01:10:41:19
Unknown
And now I'm barely older than you, but, you know, like, nine years is still still a long age, so. Yeah, man. Yeah. You know, stay safe out there, have fun flying and look forward to seeing you do some things in the future. Hey, thanks. Yes. Appreciate.