Have you ever walked up to a route saying “I can’t do this' ' or “I am going to fall, I just know it”. What happens? Chances are your prediction of the future comes true. Our own internal dialogue, whether negative or positive, shapes our reality. But how do we change our perception of ourselves, become aware of our internal dialogue, and learn to climb psychologically unencumbered?
Our guest today is Kevin Roet; climber, coach, founder of Rise & Summit outdoor education, and the author of “Climbing Psychology”. Kevin has been climbing since he was 18 and over the years noticed how many other climbers, including himself, have dealt or currently deal with an array of detrimental psychological habits that keep them from climbing their best. It is his goal to help educate the community on how we can address, accept, and move past these habits holding us back.
Using his book as a foundation we talk about fear and its role in our lives and in climbing. How the “just push through it” or “override fear” mentality is not the most healthy approach for a long injury free climbing career. And cover the steps Kevin suggests to effectively and safely get our minds out of our own way.
Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.
Contact us:
IG: @the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com
Resources:
Rise & Summit
Kevin's IG
Kevin's Book | Climbing Psychology
Have you ever walked up to a route saying “I can’t do this' ' or “I am going to fall, I just know it”. What happens? Chances are your prediction of the future comes true. Our own internal dialogue, whether negative or positive, shapes our reality. But how do we change our perception of ourselves, become aware of our internal dialogue, and learn to climb psychologically unencumbered?
Our guest today is Kevin Roet; climber, coach, founder of Rise & Summit outdoor education, and the author of “Climbing Psychology”. Kevin has been climbing since he was 18 and over the years noticed how many other climbers, including himself, have dealt or currently deal with an array of detrimental psychological habits that keep them from climbing their best. It is his goal to help educate the community on how we can address, accept, and move past these habits holding us back.
Using his book as a foundation we talk about fear and its role in our lives and in climbing. How the “just push through it” or “override fear” mentality is not the most healthy approach for a long injury free climbing career. And cover the steps Kevin suggests to effectively and safely get our minds out of our own way.
Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.
Contact us:
IG: @the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com
Resources:
Rise & Summit
Kevin's IG
Kevin's Book | Climbing Psychology
00:00:00:15 - 00:00:01:04
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone.
00:00:01:04 - 00:00:06:15
Speaker 2
Kyle here. Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast, where Max and I sit down with living.
00:00:06:15 - 00:00:08:19
Speaker 1
Legends, professional athletes.
00:00:08:21 - 00:00:33:18
Speaker 2
Certified guides and recreational climbers alike to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber you haven't already. Please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever walked up to a route saying, I can't do this, I can't do this, or I'm going to fall, I just know it?
00:00:33:20 - 00:01:01:04
Speaker 2
What ends up happening? Chances are your prediction of the future comes true. Our own internal dialog, whether negative or positive, ends up shaping our reality. But how do we change our perception of ourselves? Become aware of our internal dialog and learn to climb psychologically unencumbered. Our guest today is Kevin Root, climber, Coach, founder of Rise and Summit Outdoor Education and author of the book Climbing Psychology.
00:01:01:06 - 00:01:23:05
Speaker 2
Kevin has been climbing since he was 18 and over the years has noticed how many other climbers, including himself, have dealt or currently are dealing with an array of detrimental psychological habits that keep them from climbing at their best. It is his goal to help educate the community on how we can address, accept and move past these habits that are holding us back.
00:01:23:07 - 00:01:58:06
Speaker 2
Using his book as a foundation, we talk about fear and its role in our lives and in climbing how the just push through it or override fear mentality is not the most healthy approach for an injury free climbing career. We also cover the steps Kevin suggests to effectively and safely get our minds out of our own way.
00:01:58:08 - 00:01:58:23
Speaker 1
All right.
00:01:59:00 - 00:02:12:04
Speaker 3
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Climbing Majority podcast. Today we are going to be sitting down with Kevin. Rohit or I could have said Root. I have just learned as it's a Dutch surname, but you know, we went with the easier pronunciation, so hopefully.
00:02:12:04 - 00:02:14:00
Speaker 2
You got that. Okay.
00:02:14:02 - 00:02:24:19
Speaker 3
Kevin will give you like a nice introduction and your credentials and who you are and everything you know, in the beginning of the podcast. But you know, thanks so much for coming on the show and really happy you're here. How are you doing today, man?
00:02:24:21 - 00:02:36:02
Speaker 1
I'm good, man. I've had a busy day, a stressful day. But I'm. I'm. I'm. Yeah, good. I'm actually finally sitting down and talk to you guys.
00:02:36:04 - 00:02:37:17
Speaker 2
What's stressing you out?
00:02:37:19 - 00:02:56:12
Speaker 1
Well, it's stressing me out. Oh, man. I don't see what's going on. That's going on. I'm quite a sensitive sleeper. The. The light shone through the windows this morning. Woke up at five this morning and then just got straight to work and. Yeah.
00:02:56:14 - 00:02:57:07
Speaker 2
Productive day.
00:02:57:13 - 00:03:00:13
Speaker 1
Productive? Yeah, just. Just a busy day.
00:03:00:15 - 00:03:09:06
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like you being in the UK, like, for Kyle and I, this is the first time we've ever recorded at 7 a.m., you know? So it's, it's a little bit of a different feel.
00:03:09:06 - 00:03:09:14
Speaker 2
It's kind of.
00:03:09:14 - 00:03:13:16
Speaker 3
Interesting. It's nice. So but. But yeah, man.
00:03:13:18 - 00:03:14:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. How do we.
00:03:14:10 - 00:03:20:16
Speaker 3
Meet? You reached out on, on social media, I think, and we were communicating through there, right? Yeah.
00:03:20:17 - 00:03:21:01
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:03:21:03 - 00:03:25:13
Speaker 2
Is that means you're a listener of the show or how did you find out what Instagrammer are?
00:03:25:14 - 00:03:53:20
Speaker 1
I listen, I've listened to a few. I've listened to a few. I think the latest one that I listened to was a mountain guide's. Um. I can't remember his name. Um, yeah, and just. Just. I'm not a major. I don't have too much interest in podcasts just because I'm just so busy all the time, married to kids, running a business and then trying to run another business, trying to set one up at the moment.
00:03:53:22 - 00:03:57:21
Speaker 1
Uh, climbing because that's important.
00:03:57:23 - 00:03:59:08
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:03:59:10 - 00:04:01:15
Speaker 2
It's funny how easy that could take the backseat.
00:04:01:17 - 00:04:16:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then I get to the end of the day and I'm exhausted from trying to be productive. So I, I generally don't have a lot of time to listen to podcasts. I tend to relax by watching TV and switching my brain off.
00:04:16:18 - 00:04:20:12
Speaker 3
Yeah, Yeah, Sometimes that's very, very needed.
00:04:20:14 - 00:04:21:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. Okay.
00:04:21:03 - 00:04:42:11
Speaker 3
Well, for people who are listening, hear something? We kind of like to do is we like to get, you know, like an all encompassing view of the person we're interviewing. So it if you don't mind, maybe kind of, you know, just brief introduction, who you are, where you grew up and kind of what your early life was like and how you ended up finding climbing.
00:04:42:13 - 00:05:13:20
Speaker 1
Okay. Not necessarily. That's a big question. Yeah, I guess I both parents are Dutch. I was born and bred in Belgium. Uh, lived I guess are pretty parents were good parents lived, uh, I guess a fairly privileged lifestyle in that sense. Um, I guess me and my brother, my brother's a year and a half younger than me. We were always up to mischief, always doing stuff, always trying to fill our time creatively.
00:05:13:22 - 00:05:57:20
Speaker 1
Um, I mean, yeah, some people say we were naughty kids, but I think in those days, like, we didn't have mobile phones or computers to entertain us, so we were looking for our rented out entertainment. Um, and I came across climbing through my parents, sending me off to an activities week. Uh, and I was about 12 years old and, um, I climbed this mobile tower, and I remember to, I got so scared climbing it, and, and the instructor encouraged me to climb the bit higher.
00:05:57:20 - 00:06:25:13
Speaker 1
And that sense of achievement from surpassing my own expectations. But, but also kind of working through that fear factor kind of became quite addictive, I guess. So I guess since then, I've always be. I've always been really scared kids, but I've always wanted to push myself to get over that fear.
00:06:25:15 - 00:06:47:23
Speaker 1
So I guess I ended up being a bit of an adrenaline junkie. I mean, I used to be scared of jumping off the diving board at the swimming pool and convinced myself to do it. Um, I mean, there's so many things to fly, even roller coasters. I remember my brother as a kid. He. He seemed fearless to me.
00:06:48:01 - 00:07:18:07
Speaker 1
And he'd go on roller coasters and. And I'd want to go on to it. And I. I'd force myself on them. But I closed my eyes and I thought that would help. And I remember just one moment when I saw I kept going on these things. And I remember just sitting there and then I force my eyes open and we went on a little loop thing, and I realized that it wasn't actually that scary.
00:07:18:08 - 00:08:03:13
Speaker 1
Um, and I guess that those experiences made me think about all those things that we perceive to be scary to are really that scary? Yeah. And then I guess I guess the climbing that that, that the darkest climbing, that mobile tower, that feeling stayed with me and and I guess climbing there's very much that there is always an element of fear if you are operating a certain limit and and to be able to deal with that fear is quite I guess quite an incredible feeling of achievement that you get afterwards.
00:08:03:15 - 00:08:41:11
Speaker 1
And I guess I still have that in my climbing nowadays, whether that's ice climbing or big walling or even sport climbing or travel. I mean, there's there's always a point where there's for me anyway, and I'm guessing so many other people as well that there's, there's always element of fear somewhere along the line, whatever that fear is. And although in the moment it doesn't always feel nice, but it's that feeling afterwards the um, the keeps pulling me back in.
00:08:41:12 - 00:09:18:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. That sense of achievement that um, and I want to stay away from adrenaline rush, but I guess a down climb for the adrenaline rush I climb for that moment of, of focus and concentration in a moment is just so incredible. And because you get so many other sports where you do get that focus and that flow. But I think because climbing is such a slow sport when you're doing it, that that moment seems to last so much longer.
00:09:18:04 - 00:09:27:08
Speaker 2
That's well said. I haven't heard someone put it that way and talk about how the sport of climbing is slower. So it's almost like this more intense flow state that you are able to achieve.
00:09:27:10 - 00:09:48:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, it is. I guess that's what attracts me to climbing as well as the physical aspect of it and the movement and the friendship and, and being out in nature and so many other things for me, the climbing is my therapy.
00:09:48:03 - 00:09:58:13
Speaker 2
What kind of climber are you now in terms of like what you like to do, specific disciplines and kind of a A-grade aspect, like round yourself out as a climber currently sitting in the chair and mine?
00:09:58:15 - 00:10:32:10
Speaker 1
That's, that's a I love, I guess I love all aspects of climbing. I think the one that I struggle with too holds my attention for a long period of time is bouldering. Um, I know it's good for me and I know it's, it's good for working on strengths, but I, I struggle to hold it. It struggles to hold my attention or I struggle to hold my attention with bouldering because it's it's such a repetitive thing that you do on a very short climb.
00:10:32:10 - 00:11:21:04
Speaker 1
What I guess what I like is, is I like triads and I like sport and I like big walling and I like winter climbing and ice climbing because it's that one day climbing wall ropes and and to the journey so much longer. Um, I love sport climbing because you can very quickly go from being comfortable to being physically really pushed and you have that added element of, of the potential of falling and working through these problems and with trans strut climbing, you add the element of placing your own gear and you then able to go to places where, um, sport climbing can't take you.
00:11:21:06 - 00:11:26:14
Speaker 1
Um, big warming is just like a surfer fest really. It's.
00:11:26:16 - 00:11:29:00
Speaker 4
It's.
00:11:29:02 - 00:11:58:09
Speaker 1
It's trout climbing times 100. Really. Where you're, you're relying I guess. Although I like the planning side of things, I like the relying on myself and nobody else. Um, and I like to problem solving in a technical aspect of it and it's just you just suffering and it starts suffering the makes, I guess it makes me appreciate what I have in life.
00:11:58:11 - 00:12:25:13
Speaker 1
Um, and, and again, winter climbing, it's just another element. You add some cold to it, you add more uncomfortableness to, to, to your climbing suit, cold hands and cold feet. And then like Spindrift coming down and you're fighting through it and it's a bit more of a battle. And yeah, you're having to really fight for something as well as it is.
00:12:25:16 - 00:12:39:15
Speaker 1
Plan your days really well. Um, yeah. So I guess I quite like all of it bouldering kind of like, but I struggle with more. Um.
00:12:39:17 - 00:12:45:11
Speaker 3
Where do you big wall climb? Because it's not in the UK. No, no, no, no.
00:12:45:14 - 00:13:01:10
Speaker 1
There's no really big walls. But my only experience in big wall climbing is Yosemite. And I've been there three times now and due to go back there next year, in September, I've got some unfinished business. Um.
00:13:01:12 - 00:13:04:13
Speaker 3
Yeah. What routes did you climb of?
00:13:04:13 - 00:13:24:09
Speaker 1
Climb the nose. I've climbed regularly and half time climbs. Oh, man. What's the. I forget the name. It's the route is just left. It's mew or and I try it now. I figure I'm really bad with names.
00:13:24:10 - 00:13:26:14
Speaker 2
Heart wall or die Hydro all.
00:13:26:16 - 00:13:32:05
Speaker 1
No, it's the first ten pitches of I think Muir And then it goes off left.
00:13:32:07 - 00:13:40:00
Speaker 2
Um, Golden Gate now. Okay. No, there's a bunch up there I got to try here. I'm like, looking at.
00:13:40:01 - 00:14:03:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. So, yeah, I've got some unfinished business there. I thought it was a good idea to go rogue of climbing, and I tried to rope sort of climb, triple direct, having read Andy Kirkpatrick's book Psycho Vertical, he I quite like up to. I thought, yeah, come on this let's go rogue. Sorry, that sounds like a cool idea.
00:14:03:06 - 00:14:44:15
Speaker 1
And ended up get up to the top of page 15. Uh, I had uh, shoulder impingement early in the year and, well, I didn't realize how hard to work like solo climbing, actually is. Ended up on the top of page 15. Shoulders have been hurt in for the last kind of ten pitches. Um, yeah, and kind of got to that point where I had to make a decision do I keep going on or do I up, scale down and conserve my shoulders and preserve them for, for work and my health and came down and yeah, that was disappointing.
00:14:44:17 - 00:14:54:14
Speaker 1
Disappointing. It was a lot of learning. I did, um, the preserves my shoulders and took me five years to get my shoulders into good state.
00:14:54:15 - 00:14:58:17
Speaker 3
Yeah. Wow. Crazy. So you really, you really hurt your shoulder then?
00:14:58:19 - 00:15:27:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, it was shoulder impingement. So most climbers, they've got strong chest muscles and weak like a light shoulder. Shoulder go to muscles to go hold the shoulders in a good position. And obviously all the years of climbing and no stretching and no antagonist work, just force me like the typical climber with shoulders forwards and a bit of a hunchback.
00:15:27:13 - 00:15:35:08
Speaker 1
Crazy. So I've been working on that to get that better and such would hopefully should be all right next year.
00:15:35:10 - 00:15:38:20
Speaker 3
Awesome man. Yeah, well, I think we should.
00:15:38:22 - 00:15:39:16
Speaker 1
Move on a little.
00:15:39:16 - 00:16:07:21
Speaker 3
Bit here too. I'm wondering a couple of things. So essentially we're going to end up talking about your book here, which is climbing psychology mine training for the optimal climbing performance. What was kind of the like Inception about this? My understanding is that you were teaching a course kind of through your companies and stuff. And maybe if you could tell us a little bit about that and how you ended up writing this book and then hopefully we can kind of dive into some topics here around that.
00:16:07:23 - 00:16:43:06
Speaker 1
Sure. Okay. So I had a player many years ago, a guy who spent a lot of time on his own, and we went climbing a local climbing center. He would spend his time talking to people as opposed to focusing his attention on me whilst he was blowing me. And there was one occasion when I got to the top of the hard route when to make the last clip I saw and.
00:16:43:06 - 00:17:00:19
Speaker 1
And it was 16 meters. Yeah, about 14 or nearly 16 meters high. I fell and I ended up two meters above the floor. And I put that down to a one off incident. A couple of months later it happened again. Similar scenario on a different climb.
00:17:00:21 - 00:17:01:04
Speaker 3
And.
00:17:01:06 - 00:17:31:16
Speaker 1
Failure up. Same player. Yeah, it was the same guy. So all these scenarios happened with the same guy as second time it happens. It kind of stopped me from I guess I became aware of his. He wasn't paying enough attention and every time it climbed thereafter, I'd be looking down to see what he was doing and see if he was talking or paying attention to me.
00:17:31:18 - 00:17:54:03
Speaker 1
So I built my confidence up again. And then it happened a third time. And you know what? The third time I went to his house and I said, Look, mate, I can't do this anymore. I'm yeah. So I dumped him as a player and it's Yeah, yeah, that was it. That was a relationship. Gone. Yeah, yeah.
00:17:54:05 - 00:17:57:01
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:17:57:03 - 00:18:26:21
Speaker 1
And then I tried to climb after that and fear of falling was such a big thing from there on end, I struggle to climb at my limit. I always check whether people were paying attention. I would never make moves. I would always sit on the road. I kind of is. I stopped enjoying climbing, but I knew I really liked it, so I had to figure out a way to to deal with that fear.
00:18:26:23 - 00:19:13:23
Speaker 1
And I read a few books and did some research and and kind of some time went by and learned to come up with some strategies that helped and did a lot of self reflecting on my climbing sessions. And this went on for a while and until I realized I was able to deal with it. And so when I was able to kind of deal with with all this stuff with myself, and then once I became an instructor, I looked around me and saw so many of the climbers who suffer from something psychological that prevents them from climbing at their at their max.
00:19:14:01 - 00:19:47:07
Speaker 1
And you can see it whether it's the fear of falling, whether you can see when you really, really pay attention to climbers. You can see when people are psychologically struggling on a climb. And I think that realization and it wasn't just me, made me think, you know, or maybe I could run a workshop that could help other people and try come up with a way of helping others, how I've managed to help myself.
00:19:47:09 - 00:20:14:23
Speaker 1
So I came up with a workshop and trial run it with some local instructors who had an element of fear of falling in there, climbing. And I ran the workshop with them and got some feedback from them. They really enjoyed it and I thought, well, maybe I could run as a workshop and maybe people are willing to pay for it.
00:20:15:01 - 00:20:43:16
Speaker 1
So I started running this workshop and it became fairly popular, managed to help lots of other people and I've always used to keep notes of my workshops and always used to keep notes of ideas. I'd been running this workshop for maybe five, five years, maybe six years, and then lockdown happened and then that was the perfect opportunity for me to actually sit down and write stuff.
00:20:43:18 - 00:21:19:18
Speaker 1
Otherwise I would never have had that opportunity. So yeah, I guess I sat down. So I'm guessing you've got a copy with you. So I sat down and and come on and I, I wrote down the topics I thought were really important for somebody to know what does a climber need to know and what's structured that I need to know and thought, okay, it's got to be simple and it's got to be easy to understand and just try to write.
00:21:19:20 - 00:21:48:14
Speaker 1
Not very good writer, but I tried my best, so and I'm not a psychologist. I'm just writing, collating information from the stuff that I've read and my own experiences and and try and try and present information to people to is that has scientific research behind it. That is hopefully easy to understand because most climbers don't have a degree in psychology.
00:21:48:16 - 00:21:55:08
Speaker 1
So I had to make sure that it was easy to understand, really, because you. No.
00:21:55:10 - 00:22:22:16
Speaker 3
I think I think mission accomplished. You know, when I was reading through the book, I found it, the anecdotes in it and the way your writing style was, it was really, really useful. Good to understand and very practical, if that makes sense. You know, I actually study quite I really I'm in kinesiology and I really like anatomy and stuff, so I'm very familiar with some of the more scientific and psychological processes that you've talked about.
00:22:22:17 - 00:22:50:16
Speaker 3
But for a lot of the time you don't actually have to dive like insanely deep into it to, to, to really get the gist of actually what's happening in your body. Right. And you actually do do some quite deep dives onto it. But in general, I just found the way the information was catered really was there was a lot of utility and it was just very like very to the point of like this is like a great thing that you can use right away or explaining something.
00:22:50:16 - 00:23:08:11
Speaker 3
I'm trying to understand how like what's actually happening, why you're scared. And so I think with that, like, do you, do you mind if we like, kind of go through this a little bit here and maybe talk about like, like what's actually happening in your body? Why why is somebody getting scared?
00:23:08:13 - 00:23:13:09
Speaker 1
They're sure. Yeah. Far away. Ask as many questions as you want.
00:23:13:10 - 00:23:20:20
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think that that's just a good place to start, is like, what is fear? Like, why? Why are we experiencing fear? You know?
00:23:20:22 - 00:24:00:16
Speaker 1
I guess fear is like a chemical reaction that kind of happens in your brain. And I guess there there are several types of fear. There's instinctual fear that they say that's built in within us. And then there's that perception of fear, something that we perceive to be scary. There was a psychologist that did some research and said, apparently we are only born with two instinctual fears and one is the fear of loud noises, and the other one's the fear of heights.
00:24:00:18 - 00:24:34:22
Speaker 1
Now, if you think of climbing, that's a high, right? So instinctually we're going to be scared of being at height. Now, a lot of the other fears are perceived says So when it comes to something as simple as the fear of falling, you're then fighting something that's kind of almost instinctual. So we then need to learn how to expose ourselves to that.
00:24:35:00 - 00:24:58:15
Speaker 1
And and I think, yeah, I think sometimes when it comes to climbing, we, we, we, we go on a course or we learn from friends and, and we learn the skills that we need, but then we get to a height and then there's that potential to fall. So there's almost an assumption that we should be okay with that.
00:24:58:20 - 00:25:08:07
Speaker 1
And if you're not, you need to man or woman up Right. That that's that's you know, narrow minded.
00:25:08:09 - 00:25:29:20
Speaker 2
I'd like to real quick I'd like to clarify something. So you you said fear of heights and fear of falling to me, those almost are different. I've heard, like the instinctual fear is is loud noises and fear of falling. Do you see fear of heights and fear of falling as two separate things, or do you think they're the same?
00:25:29:22 - 00:25:58:07
Speaker 1
I guess fear of falling. So there's going to be an element of you don't want to die. So the fear of heights, is it the same? I don't know. I think being at heights with that element of fear of death, I think there's going to be some interrelation in there. But I'm not a psychologist, so I don't know.
00:25:58:12 - 00:25:59:22
Speaker 1
So, yes.
00:26:00:00 - 00:26:24:12
Speaker 2
For me, it's it's the difference between the two is you can, you know, like if if you're in a completely controlled environment, whatever that might be, you can be in a position of height and not have fear because, you know, you're not going to fall like if you're standing on the edge of a cliff and there's a fence there and you're grabbing on to the fence, you might be looking to thousand feet down.
00:26:24:17 - 00:26:53:12
Speaker 2
But there's no fear because there's this realm of safety and controlled environment. But fear of falling is like once that threshold is crossed and once you are no longer in control of your environment or you have no longer in control of whether or not you're going to stay in that controlled environment, that's where that fear kind of comes in and at least that's how it is for for me, it's like and I think some people experience vertigo when looking at like big, big, big heights or something like that.
00:26:53:12 - 00:27:02:09
Speaker 2
And so I was just curious if you if you had any thought process on, on like those those differences in the fine nuances between those two experiences.
00:27:02:10 - 00:27:28:08
Speaker 1
No, I honestly I don't Kyle and I'm not going to I'm not going to kind of try and pretend that I know. But I think for me, I guess the relationship between I'm not saying they're the same, but but the fear of heights and the fear of falling, they are two different things. But I would imagine somehow there's that there's a relationship in there somewhere.
00:27:28:10 - 00:27:32:18
Speaker 2
Okay, cool. Yeah, I was just trying to dive a little deeper into there, but yeah, I appreciate that.
00:27:32:20 - 00:27:51:16
Speaker 3
I think I think for me, the big takeaway on one of the things you said essentially is, is you have you essentially have two types of fear. One of them is real. You know, like if you're free soloing and you don't want to, you know, fall because you're going to die, that's that's very real. You will die if you fall.
00:27:51:18 - 00:28:12:04
Speaker 3
Same thing if you're run out above a massive ledge, you don't you don't want to just tell yourself that fear is fake and doesn't exist and just fall and then deck a ledge and die. So there's this very real fear, which is an evolutionary component for humans, which we need. Like that is absolutely a necessity to have that fear.
00:28:12:04 - 00:28:47:12
Speaker 3
We want to have that fear. But then there's like this illusory fear which is essentially not real, if the circumstances correct and that's the fear that's hindering climber's performance. It's when you're you're very anxious, you're over gripping, you're not climbing well, you're constantly focused on falling or death, and maybe you're above a bolt on an overhang sport climb and there's zero chance of actually, well, not zero, but there's virtually no chance of dying then That's the kind of fear we're talking about in targeting.
00:28:47:15 - 00:28:58:17
Speaker 3
And that's what's like diminishing people's performance and their capacity to get out and kind of find the edge of their ability essentially is what it is, is is that does that sound to you?
00:28:58:17 - 00:29:37:15
Speaker 1
Kevin It does, yeah, it does sound right. And I think people don't know how to, I guess, work with that fear or how to how to reduce that fear over time. I think we're expected a lot, like I mentioned earlier, we expected to to to learn some of the skills we need within climbing and and a fair thing is just not really talked about is talked about more so nowadays but how do you deal with it Do you just go ahead head on and just kind of push push your way through?
00:29:37:15 - 00:30:06:09
Speaker 1
But but in my head, that's going to have a very adverse effect. And and it's it's learning to deal with it. It's learning how to gradually, over time, kind of expose yourself to it at a level that is suitable to yourself. And that means that you feel that there is some progress happening. But in living in today's society, we can't help but compare ourselves to our mates, right?
00:30:06:11 - 00:30:20:17
Speaker 1
So you go climbing with a mate and your mate doesn't isn't as scared as you are and you're going to feel worse about your own performance and and so on. Yeah.
00:30:20:19 - 00:30:44:17
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. I was just telling this to Kyle earlier, so, you know, I had a, I had a really bad severe accident climbing. I broke both my ankles. You know, we kind of documented through the podcast and everything, I really focused on getting myself back to, to tried climbing after that. So I was working on, you know, positive self affirmations, meditation, working on my mind game.
00:30:44:17 - 00:31:11:00
Speaker 3
I was doing yoga, I was getting back and climbing. I used rope soloing like top rope soloing as a way to continuously push my exposure level and get myself back into climbing. And I really gradually got myself where I actually within, I think it was about a year and a half, had gone myself back to around my on site level of trad and and was actually kind of climbing better than I ever had through a lot of time and energy.
00:31:11:00 - 00:31:41:17
Speaker 3
And that was kind of 2022. And now 2023 comes around and my girlfriend and I pretty much since around end of August, October, we, we decided we're going to climb Denali this year. So for the last seven, seven months, all we have done is climb ice trail, run and hike, preparing for Denali. Right. And and I, I really felt a little burnt out mentally at the end of this season.
00:31:41:17 - 00:31:59:03
Speaker 3
I had a really good ice season for myself. And and so just the other day I went out climbing with a friend of mine and this was kind of what you were just alluding to a friend, Quinn, who actually we've interviewed on the show here. And, you know, I haven't been rock climbing at all. I haven't been putting myself in the exposure of rock.
00:31:59:03 - 00:32:17:12
Speaker 3
And for me, that's the most traumatic because that's where I hurt myself. So I haven't been mentally working on my game. I haven't been exposing myself. I rarely climb sport and we went out and climbed sport. And I was I was terrified. Like I just had like I was like mentally not there. I was super scared, wasn't feeling good.
00:32:17:12 - 00:32:42:18
Speaker 3
It was obviously quite demoralizing. I can be quite self-deprecating as a person, and I just had to tell Quinn. I had to be. Look, man, I want to see, like, I'll probe stuff, but like, I'm not going to lead. Like, I really don't feel good here. You know, I can't do it. And I think it just goes to show that as a skill, the mentally, if you don't work on it, you know, you can't assume, Oh, well, last year I was climbing really well and feeling good.
00:32:42:18 - 00:33:04:09
Speaker 3
Now I take this huge hiatus from a specific type of climbing and I just kind of had this expectation that I was going to feel good or be able to climb. And it really wasn't the case. And it really, for me, manifested and showed quite clearly that, you know, I actually have a lot of issues here and I need to work on those consistently if I want to make headway and I want to be able to climb well.
00:33:04:11 - 00:33:27:12
Speaker 3
So I thought I thought that was a really, really big takeaway for me for sure, about how quickly you can kind of lose those those those mental gains you've made in a sense. And, you know, I think you say it here in the introduction of your book, you say, as climbers, we train physically using finger boards, core exercises, antagonist training, pull ups, campus power, endurance, etc. We train our technique.
00:33:27:12 - 00:33:47:00
Speaker 3
But why, when a large part of climbing is psychological, do we tend to forget about this part? And it is. It is interesting because like I probably had a 100 to 1 ratio spend time physically training things and don't work on my mind, you know, And it is like one of the largest components of climbing. So yeah, I think it's I think it's fascinating.
00:33:47:02 - 00:33:48:05
Speaker 3
Sorry this is you don't.
00:33:48:06 - 00:34:15:04
Speaker 1
A lot but this so No, no, no that's really good but but I think what requires so when you work on your your mind's game, your mental game in climbing it takes a lot of self-awareness. And I think that self-awareness is, is a skill that is either untrained in people or just makes people feel uncomfortable. And or maybe people just don't know how to do it.
00:34:15:06 - 00:34:51:01
Speaker 1
That self-awareness to look at your performance without emotional judgment. So you look at your performance like your psychological performance or even your physical performance, and you judge it based on a kind of, you base your judgment. Is it subjectively is it something so objectively, objectively without feeling and you try and look for ways to what went well, what didn't go well, How could you improve?
00:34:51:01 - 00:35:36:13
Speaker 1
And then and I guess what happened to you is when you had your accident in track climbing and you broke both your ankles, that that is logged in your brain is some form of trauma. And for you to then go out and to try and work on it is going to take a lot of mental work to to work with it and potentially slow progress over a long period of time because you've had that negative experience and you need lots of experience, lots of experiences that confirm positively that that was just a one off and that will take a lot of work.
00:35:36:13 - 00:36:07:17
Speaker 1
And for you, like you said, for you to then take a big period of time off, to go in hiking and walking and kind of winter walking and then ice climbing, which is again, which is a very different kind of head game, very different. You're very quickly going to lose some of that. And although you've got the skills and a knowledge, there because you've worked on it before, it's just going to take a bit more work to get back to it.
00:36:07:19 - 00:36:36:01
Speaker 1
So it won't take as much work as you've done in the past, but you will have to spend work on it over time. It'll become easier and for me as well. So the trauma I've got logged in my brain from so many years ago just creeps in my head every so often. And even on sport routes where there is that there shouldn't be any like logical reason why I should be fearful.
00:36:36:03 - 00:36:40:22
Speaker 2
Your your fear is strictly based around like mistrust in your belair is.
00:36:40:23 - 00:36:41:19
Speaker 1
Oh massively yeah.
00:36:41:19 - 00:36:42:06
Speaker 2
Issue.
00:36:42:10 - 00:37:11:02
Speaker 1
Yeah big time. So I will not climb with anyone who's playing I don't trust. And if I've never climbed with that person before, I will. I guess. As an instructor we always watch. People are always watch their equipment. I'll see what kind of device they got. I'll have a look at their their harness. I'll have a look and see how they behave around a rope or a slick and smooth today.
00:37:11:02 - 00:37:30:11
Speaker 1
Note Does it look like they know what they're doing? And there's a lot of telltale signs that tell me that someone what they're doing or that they haven't got a clue. And if I just don't know, I'll I'll say I won't get them to like me, but I'll watch to be like somebody else. And if I'm not comfortable with it, I just won't climb.
00:37:30:12 - 00:37:36:16
Speaker 1
Even There are some friends that I have whose be lying. And if they listen to the podcast, Sorry.
00:37:36:16 - 00:37:38:03
Speaker 4
Guys.
00:37:38:05 - 00:37:44:03
Speaker 1
Whose play I don't 100% trust.
00:37:44:05 - 00:37:45:23
Speaker 2
Kevin's currently taking applications.
00:37:46:05 - 00:37:50:19
Speaker 4
Yes. Yeah.
00:37:50:21 - 00:37:53:16
Speaker 1
But it's a massive thing, isn't it? It's like.
00:37:53:16 - 00:37:54:14
Speaker 2
It's a massive thing.
00:37:54:14 - 00:38:04:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. You're holding someone's life in your hands and. And he should be treated like it. And I so often see people being too relaxed about it.
00:38:04:09 - 00:38:33:03
Speaker 3
My rationale to it is I think it's kind of the modern air of, of gym would be like, I would like to put two sets on that. Nothing against gym climbing, but I think you get a lot of people are just taught you just stand there pull break hand under slide and that's bullying and and it's not you know like bullying is this very, very like active component and I think you talk about this in the book as well, you know, beyond just the safety of your partner, which is obviously paramount, you should be doing that.
00:38:33:05 - 00:38:53:00
Speaker 3
There's so many things that you could be doing in a very active capacity, and especially if you're multipage climbing, you can the rope, you could deal with gear, you can look at the climb the top so you can, you know, get your climber prepared in every possible sense so that they can focus on being safe and climbing well and that you can focus on protecting their life.
00:38:53:00 - 00:39:15:01
Speaker 3
And that's that's a total partnership. It's a very active role. It's not just standing there. It's sitting down with the glasses, you know, which if you're top roping and maybe you have a. Gregory, it's like, I don't have a problem with that personally. But but it is it is a very, very active role. And there is a lot to it that you can kind of infinitely get better at essentially.
00:39:15:03 - 00:39:25:05
Speaker 3
I'm curious, are Kevin do you on single pitch like Craig and stuff, do you always use like an assisted braking device? Do you like want your partner to always have one?
00:39:25:07 - 00:39:55:17
Speaker 1
So single, single page sport climbing? Yes, I will. Will my partner to have an assisted braking device, Although if I know really well and I know they can beat a well with an ATV, for example, I'll let them play with Anita ATC. But if it's somebody who are unfamiliar with, I'd feel really uncomfortable if they beat me with an like just a normal beat I device.
00:39:55:19 - 00:40:12:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I'm curious a little bit back to the accident or the three experiences you had here. Yeah, you don't have to dive into it too deep, but what would you chalk up? The reason why you came so close to the ground? Was it the belay device? Like, did was there a lot of rope slippage, or did he just have way too much slack out?
00:40:12:04 - 00:40:12:16
Speaker 2
Oh, I.
00:40:12:17 - 00:40:35:21
Speaker 1
Have no idea. I was climbing. I was paying attention to the climbing. I was so involved in what I was doing. I was really watching what he was doing and nor was he able to give me an explanation because I think his ego was way too big to even kind of put his hands up and say, Yeah, this happens.
00:40:35:21 - 00:40:57:07
Speaker 1
I wasn't paying attention. I was talking to somebody else and there was just too much slack out. So I can't tell you what it was. And yeah, so I can only assume it was a combination of too much slack, how not paying attention. And then as I fell and the rope went tight, he maybe got pulled up a little bit and, and so on.
00:40:57:13 - 00:40:59:19
Speaker 1
I just yeah, I just don't know.
00:40:59:21 - 00:41:00:14
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:41:00:16 - 00:41:39:23
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. So another, another thing that, you know, I saw you talked about in your book is that I think it's Tom Sengar's theory of a learning zone model. And so it had had the comfort zone, the learning zone and the panic zone and I really, I really like looking into this. And I think the biggest thing that I took away from this is in in at least in North America, but I would guess obviously in the UK as well, too, like there's kind of been this like prevalent culture in a lot of sports, you know, like no pain, no gain, you know, suck it up, be tough, like challenge it, like all that kind
00:41:39:23 - 00:42:10:22
Speaker 3
of, you know, like heady toughness and stuff. And especially that's obviously prominent in climbing culture as well. And sometimes to but I've definitely climbed a lot through that where I've tried to just essentially I've just been in the panic zone ends for anybody listing the panic zone essentially your experiencing fear anxiety and you're really stressed. And I've been climbing in the zone pushing myself and just kind of trying, you know, apologies, but for lack of a better word, just like, you know, don't be a little bitch, you know, like climb through this.
00:42:11:00 - 00:42:26:01
Speaker 3
You know, that's kind of been my mentality. And in reality, I feel like that's actually been compounding my fear and my issues, you know? And I thought there was a really interesting motto. Do you mind maybe talking about that a little bit?
00:42:26:01 - 00:42:49:10
Speaker 1
Kevin No, just fine. So I guess the learnings are more a lot like you already mentioned, Max, it's about the comfort zones, the learning zone in a panic zone. And so generally as climbers, we tend to operate in our comfort zone. So it's something that we feel comfortable with where there's very little stress. You know, there's there's there's no stress involved.
00:42:49:12 - 00:43:25:10
Speaker 1
The learning zone is where there's an element of stress involved, but it's kind of a manageable stress for that person. And then the panic zone is where you're just too stressed and your brain, you can't think clearly. Your brain's in panic mode and it's just not conducive to progressing in what you're doing. It's just if you're going to operate in a panic zone, it's just going to reaffirm a lot of bad negative behavior about yourself combined not with a negative mindset.
00:43:25:12 - 00:43:59:17
Speaker 1
So the idea behind it is that you if if you take anything within climbing, you operate within your comfort zone and you very gently push yourself, which takes self-awareness to really feel where you're up and you try and push yourself into your learning zone. And if we take flight, the fear of falling, for example, it's it's a case of bringing it down to something where it feels very easy and slowly take bigger falls.
00:43:59:19 - 00:44:28:07
Speaker 1
But it's moving into the learning zone. And you got to realize some people that learning zone might be really small, so it might be so for example, if your waist was at a bowl, someone might feel comfortable there. If your waist was an inch above the bowl, that might be the learning zone. If the waist was two inches above the bowl, that might be panic zone.
00:44:28:09 - 00:45:03:01
Speaker 1
So it's really finding out where where that level of learning zone is before you start to grow as a person. And and then when you move into the learning zone, is operating there for a period of time. So for example, someone might take a hundred falls and then that might feel more comfortable and that might move into their comfort zone, which then allows them to progress.
00:45:03:03 - 00:45:54:08
Speaker 1
If somebody moves into the panic zone and excuse me and operates in the panic zone, then that might cause some form of trauma, which means you're one reaffirming negative behavior, but you're also not progressing because you're associating high stress with that one situation and you're less likely to then want to move into that situation again. So and again, if you move into if you played around in the comfort zone too much and don't push yourself, then your comfort zone is going to stay the same size or or it may grow very, very, very slowly over a long period of time.
00:45:54:10 - 00:46:20:09
Speaker 1
So again, it's it's really thinking about that self-awareness and and what we're feeling at that time and how we're operating and climbing, being so great focused climbing, being so focused on getting to the top of something, that's what we focus on. We don't really focus on what are we learning and how are we progressing as climbers.
00:46:20:11 - 00:46:30:09
Speaker 2
There's a a couple of things to unpack here. So I recently stumbled upon watch like the first two episodes of the Climb on HBO with Aquaman Alive.
00:46:30:11 - 00:46:31:01
Speaker 1
No, The.
00:46:31:01 - 00:46:55:22
Speaker 2
Climb. You guys heard of the this Really show you're talking about? I think. Yeah. Yeah. I personally don't think it's meant for climbers. I think it's meant for a more general audience. So much more about the the drama that it is everything else. Okay But in it there's a lot of, you know, they dramatize it and so there's a lot of people with like bad negative, you know, mental talk and a lot of people having a lot of anxiety at the base of the climb.
00:46:55:22 - 00:47:30:10
Speaker 2
And it's affecting how they're performing. But the way it's interesting, the way Chris Sharma kind of like says it, he's like, oh, they just need to override. That was the word they used. And that was something that makes it almost like that's what you were trying to like, say, it's like, you know, you're in this panic state and it's almost like, you know, people are encouraging other people to just override it and like, fight through it and, you know, basically not really giving, you know, basically saying it's something you need to get rid of instead of something that you need to, like, accept and like digest and understand.
00:47:30:10 - 00:47:56:20
Speaker 2
Like why is this happening? It's more of like, turn it off, override it, push through. And I think that while in certain situations, that kind of mentality can work, I think that it gets some people into a dangerous mindset. Because if you're constantly choosing to override the fear without actually digesting why the fear is there in the first place, you could get to a point where, you know, you are not recognizing fear for where it needs to be.
00:47:56:20 - 00:48:17:12
Speaker 2
Like if you're in a dangerous situation and you actually could get injured if you fall and you're just constantly choosing to override that fear and you do pop off, you can get yourself into some pretty nasty situations. So I just find it interesting that that's kind of like what they were promoting. And obviously these people, the show were in a safe environment where if they felt they'd be fine.
00:48:17:14 - 00:48:24:00
Speaker 2
But I think that it's a it's an interesting path to just choose to override it and not recognize it for what it is.
00:48:24:02 - 00:48:58:15
Speaker 1
I mean, maybe that works for Chris Sharma. I just don't think it's it works for the general population. I mean, if I look at the amount of force that I've taken in my career, I mean, just averaging maybe since I started climbing at the age of 18, now being 43, I've probably taken 25,000 false. Wow. And still the element of fear of falling occasionally kind of creeps in at times.
00:48:58:17 - 00:49:41:08
Speaker 1
Again, depending where I am, what environment I'm in, what type of climbing I'm doing, it still kind of arises there. And I mean, you hear so many people and like Max was saying, you just kind of push on through. But like you was saying, Kyle, if you push on through, for example, you're on a climb and you are really scared and you know the gear is good, but you push on through, you might excuse me, you might get to a point where you're so scared that you're unable to analyze the gear that you've placed is good, and you might push yourself in a situation where, yeah, you're going to take a fall and you're going
00:49:41:08 - 00:49:43:09
Speaker 1
to potentially really hurt yourself.
00:49:43:10 - 00:50:04:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. Or you're like, you're choosing to override and you just keep climbing and you don't take the time to make sure the gear is good and you're just like, Oh, I'm just going to keep climbing and get up there. And now you're, you know, 25 feet up and you've got three bad pieces because you didn't take the time to place them and now you're in a really bad situation and so things can just escalate so quickly with that kind of overriding mindset.
00:50:04:12 - 00:50:14:10
Speaker 2
And I think this mostly applies to trad just because sport climbing is generally pretty safe. But yeah, tried climbing is definitely where I see. I see that kind of mentality being an issue.
00:50:14:11 - 00:50:44:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, well it's a climbing I mean winter climbing is Scotland's. Yeah. I don't, I don't incident where, where I was in winter climbing with a mate called Pete and we went winter climbing. He did the first pitch and I went to do the second pitch and went a place to not and went up in a place to come and went up and like it was at my physical limit and there was a bit of tart sticking out and I didn't check, I just clipped it because I was too pumped and too scared.
00:50:44:04 - 00:51:07:12
Speaker 1
Went up again. There was a pitons eye winking at me. So I thought clip it without checking it, and then went higher and then fell and both pieces ripped and I ended up landing on the blade. And luckily I landed on the black is, I mean, I broke his shoulder, but I mean, it could have been a lot worse.
00:51:07:13 - 00:51:13:02
Speaker 2
And you were fine.
00:51:13:04 - 00:51:16:11
Speaker 4
I was fine. Does does Pete.
00:51:16:11 - 00:51:18:23
Speaker 3
Still climb with you?
00:51:19:01 - 00:51:24:16
Speaker 1
We are good times since then. Do we still we still.
00:51:24:18 - 00:51:25:00
Speaker 4
We.
00:51:25:00 - 00:51:29:17
Speaker 1
Still send messages to each other on social media every now and then.
00:51:29:22 - 00:51:32:22
Speaker 2
So it sounds like you have a couple of bottles of whiskey or something.
00:51:33:02 - 00:51:33:14
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:51:33:16 - 00:51:56:12
Speaker 1
So I ended up whacking myself in the face with an ice ax on the way down. What a crazy story. Yeah. And I ended up landing on Pete Shoulder. This, I think, broke his AC joint, so I ended up carrying all this kit out. Yeah. Blood pouring out my nose. And him not being able to kind of do anything with his left arm.
00:51:56:14 - 00:51:57:14
Speaker 2
Or Pete.
00:51:57:16 - 00:52:00:17
Speaker 1
For that whole. Yeah, I know. For Pete. Please forgive.
00:52:00:17 - 00:52:02:12
Speaker 4
Me. Okay.
00:52:02:14 - 00:52:05:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. Thanks for steaks, for saving Kevin's life, Pete. We appreciate you.
00:52:05:18 - 00:52:07:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, Thanks, Pete. Yeah.
00:52:07:18 - 00:52:31:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, I thought. I thought what you said, Carl was really interesting about that show. And, you know, I think. I think being an amazing, elite athlete like Shama doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be the best coach or the most empathetic person to understand. Maybe like a more like average climber goes through. And so obviously not dissing Shaman or anything, you know, the guy's a total legend.
00:52:31:06 - 00:52:49:02
Speaker 3
Amazing. But But yeah, if you've been able to maybe climb like 513 since you've been 16 and every single thing you touch is like a massive overhanging and you've been whipping your whole life, then you maybe don't know what it's like to be like crossed out on a five, eight or a57 and have really high fall consequences and stuff.
00:52:49:02 - 00:53:18:22
Speaker 3
So I just think it's a different thing. And, and ultimately having self-awareness and understanding the mechanisms, producing fear in your body like having that self-awareness, understanding that and learning how to work through it, that is a very different process than just pretending fear doesn't exist. You know, I think one is one is you're kind of you're kind of like learning a skill and developing yourself.
00:53:18:23 - 00:53:46:19
Speaker 3
The other one, you're just you're almost avoiding the problem in a way. And same thing if you're a really, really talented athlete and you can get into deep grades really quick where there's a lot better falls, then maybe that works because then like we talked about, okay, you work through the panic zone, but then when you start falling and stuff, there's so many positive experiences that happen from that because all your falls are clean, all your falls are good, there's no problem.
00:53:46:19 - 00:54:07:06
Speaker 3
I'm climbing overhanging roofs all day. It's like, okay, well now you've just paused heavily associated this stimulus of falling in your body. Whereas you know someone like us, it's like, okay, I fell run out on an easy tried climb and I broke both of my ankles. There's not a positive stimulus associated with falling. It's very it's not the same thing, right?
00:54:07:06 - 00:54:20:01
Speaker 3
So, yeah, I just think being the best climber in the world and being able to help people work through fear are probably two very different things. So I think that's a really great point you brought up. Kyle Yeah.
00:54:20:07 - 00:54:44:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think that I don't want to like I said, I don't want to paint Chris Sharma in a bad light like he, I don't think he was being insensitive. I just think the, the word he chose to use, which was override really speaks to what he was trying to say. And I think that while it applied to the situation that he was talking about in that show, it does not apply to that to the topic of fear as a broad scope.
00:54:44:11 - 00:54:59:02
Speaker 2
And the one other thing on that show is that a lot of like I said, a lot of people were bringing this like kind of negative self-talk to the base of the root. You know, there is this one girl that it's like, Oh, I just I'm so nervous, like, I'm going to fail, I'm going to fall, I'm going to do this.
00:54:59:02 - 00:55:15:19
Speaker 2
Like I'm not going to make it to the top like, like audibly saying these things. And people are trying to be like, Oh, you got it, you got it. And sure enough, you know, 20 feet off the wall, she falls and it's just like I was kind of getting frustrated with her because, like, I don't understand how some people can't understand that they're doing it to themselves.
00:55:15:19 - 00:55:31:21
Speaker 2
Like all this negative talk, all this thing, you're telling yourself you're going to fall, you're telling yourself that you're scared. You're like almost accepting it and not dealing with it at all. And then they get upset at the base that they fell and it's like, Well, come on. Like, you didn't even come to the wall with the proper mindset in the first place.
00:55:31:21 - 00:55:51:09
Speaker 2
So how can you expect to perform? So put them down and talk to us a little bit about like the how we approach climbs and the the negative self-talk or the positive affirmations we might have approaching situations where we will have fear, like there's this precursor, there's this moment before that we kind of have to to deal with that.
00:55:51:09 - 00:55:56:09
Speaker 2
So what have you spoken about to your to your class and your clients about this process?
00:55:56:11 - 00:56:32:03
Speaker 1
I mean, I guess like an element of fear. And I mean, when when I approach like my projects, I do feel, um, anxiety and some some element of nervousness in my stomach. And, and that is very normal. And what again, we go back to what I was saying earlier and what you were saying as well, Max, that that self-awareness is really going into something with with a mind is thinking, what is it that you think?
00:56:32:07 - 00:57:00:15
Speaker 1
What is it that you feeling and approaching a climb with that awareness and that negative mindset, that negative affirmation is almost like a habit that some people have instilled themselves into. And, and maybe you find it frustrating, Kyle, because you you can see it so clearly because because I know, I'm not sure how else to say you've been enlightened.
00:57:00:17 - 00:57:28:11
Speaker 1
So you can see that in other people. And, and I see it in so many other people as well, not in just climbing, but in everyday life. And it takes that self-awareness. So when when you when every when anyone approaches a climb, that feeling of anxiety or that feeling of fear is very, very normal. And it's accepting that that's the feeling you're going to have.
00:57:28:13 - 00:58:06:07
Speaker 1
And so and I have to say, on a big day before I go winter climbing, for example, I love winter climbing, but I do get really worked up about some of the routes I'm looking to do because I know that I'm going to push myself, myself through my mental limit. But as soon as I start climbing and it's that acceptance phase where you start climbing and all of that anxiety disappears because I know what I'm doing with climbing, I just move into a climbing phase and all of that disappears.
00:58:06:09 - 00:58:26:04
Speaker 1
As long as the challenge I've put in front of myself is at the right level for me, both physically and mentally. Because as soon as I push myself mentally too far, I'm going to move into my panic zone and then it's not going to be helpful.
00:58:26:06 - 00:58:48:09
Speaker 2
And in your book, I think it talks a lot about breathing and also visualization. Yeah, maybe talk to us a little bit about, you know, the difference between, you know, I'm going to use this lady in the show as an example is she's already visualizing herself falling. She's already visualizing herself failing and disappointing herself before it's even happened.
00:58:48:11 - 00:59:00:21
Speaker 2
So maybe talk to us a little bit about some of the processes that we can use leading up to a climb or performance to help us have a better outcome.
00:59:00:23 - 00:59:26:02
Speaker 1
So we look at, say, for example, visualization. When it comes to climbing, we can do the reading, right? So we stand in front of a Klein and we we read the routes as in we, we figure out where we put hands and feet. But as well as that, we figure out our clipping positions and we figure out how we may feel the route.
00:59:26:03 - 00:59:49:23
Speaker 1
And we we have a chart to ourselves and, and kind of say, well, that feeling is a route I'm familiar with is a route unfamiliar with that feeling of fear that may creep in at some point. Is that justifiable? Is that a real risk? Do I need to be really aware of what I'm doing because there's a potential to get her?
00:59:50:01 - 01:00:23:02
Speaker 1
Or is it an irrational fear? And by by no means am I saying that it's not a real feeling by I'm say, irrational fear. As in you're not going to get hurt, do we? So we visualize and we try and have a chart to ourselves where we have some positive self-talk and say, Well, we may feel this on that climb, but it's all okay because there is no real risk.
01:00:23:04 - 01:00:48:20
Speaker 1
So that's part of visualization process. Now the breathing aspects like when I coach people, one of the first things, apart from some of the basic movements that I teach, is breathing, because so many people don't breathe properly when they climb and breathing. I mean, so you breathe in through your nose by breathing in through your nose, into your lungs.
01:00:48:20 - 01:01:23:17
Speaker 1
Your body takes up 18% more oxygen when you breathe into your your chest so that the upper part of your lungs that's associated with the nervous system that causes the Firefly syndrome to kick in. Now, if you breathe into your belly that's linked in with the nervous system and causes you to relax more. But it's also linked in with the vagus nerve, which is which runs through your spinal cord.
01:01:23:17 - 01:02:00:11
Speaker 1
It's your brain and the vagus nerve. It's function is 75% of its function is to do with the nervous system that causes rest. So just by breathing and breathing at a steady rate were inducing more of a feeling of rest. We are slowing down on heart rate and calmer when we're Kabir So we produce more. We put more oxygen into our lungs, more oxygen goes into our bloodstream.
01:02:00:12 - 01:02:31:20
Speaker 1
So when we're more relaxed, we're not going to squeeze as hard on the on the holds. We hold on to wood and providing more blood to those muscles. We need oxygen to those muscles to produce more energy. So we're going feel like we have more energy, and that's why breathing is so important. Now, also, before you start to climb, it's I have a ritual that gets me into zone every time.
01:02:31:22 - 01:02:43:03
Speaker 1
And for me, that's one thing. And that took me a while to, to, to try and I guess come up with that. And it's not very complicated, but it's What.
01:02:43:03 - 01:02:43:22
Speaker 2
Do you do?
01:02:44:00 - 01:03:15:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I do rereading now once I've done the I put my shoes on, I'll make sure that I've tried improperly, I make sure the blade checks by not, uh, I've been climbing for 25 years. I still get the blade to check my not a part of my process, but also it reaffirms to me that I've done a good job, and that's something I then don't need to think about when I'm climbing.
01:03:15:23 - 01:04:01:13
Speaker 1
And because sometimes you get really nervous and you. You're halfway up a climb. You think, have I haven't. I? And I don't really want to think that when I'm climbing. So I've done my reading of checked my knee brace, checked my no I've put my shoes on. I, I don't need to look up again where I'm going because I've already done the reading a chalk up my hands, shake my hands out and I take a couple of deep breaths, look at the floor, and then when I feel ready, I just get into kind of go both and just get the climb climbing and just do what I'd usually do and hopefully either fall or.
01:04:01:15 - 01:04:09:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, or, or get to wherever I get to hopefully stop.
01:04:09:14 - 01:04:33:20
Speaker 3
Yeah. No I think, I think that's those are very simple things that are easy to overlook essentially. Right. Like the, the importance of breathing, the importance of self affirmation, communicating to yourself, reducing anxiety, not over gripping. I think like when you say these, it's really easy to kind of think like, Oh yeah, of course, like all that makes sense.
01:04:33:20 - 01:04:39:00
Speaker 3
But you really a lot of people don't actually practice them, right? Does that, does that make sense?
01:04:39:00 - 01:04:51:03
Speaker 1
Does that? I know that and I see so many climbers stressed out, not breathing properly over gripping disco leg or Elvis leg. I mean, yeah.
01:04:51:05 - 01:04:51:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.
01:04:51:21 - 01:05:03:03
Speaker 1
People think people think that climbing smoothly and then they just like something happens and you're like, Yeah, well, you're not breathing, right? Yeah.
01:05:03:05 - 01:05:31:12
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. No, it is. It is, it is unbelievable. Like, just a few things, basic things that you can tweak and, and the difference that's going to make. You know, there's, I'm not sure if you're familiar with like Scott Johnston like training for the new Alpinist slash evoke endurance. Okay well he's he's like a really well known like endurance slash like mountain athlete coach.
01:05:31:14 - 01:06:03:07
Speaker 3
But he kind of talks about that that like what what really separates like the pros from, you know, not the professionals beyond probably some genetic predispositions that make them amazing or what they do. Besides that is they do the basics really, really well and they do them consistently all the time. And that's kind of like a huge determining factor, is like we all want to think there's like some flashy thing, or if I just work through my fear or if I just try harder and man up or woman up more, you know, I'm going to be able to do it.
01:06:03:09 - 01:06:23:03
Speaker 3
And the reality is like, you actually need to be like, consistency is the currency of success. It's like you have to really consistently practice these simple basic things and do them really, really well over and over and over again over a long period of time. And that's where you'll start to see, like I think, big gains and success.
01:06:23:05 - 01:06:29:05
Speaker 3
And for me, this is anecdotal because I'm not a very successful climber. So whoever is listening, take that with a grain of salt.
01:06:29:05 - 01:06:31:06
Speaker 4
But, you know.
01:06:31:08 - 01:06:51:03
Speaker 3
I do think that those are those are really, really important things to test to to make a difference. And even just something as basic as being self-aware, like how are you communicating to yourself when you go up to a climb? I'm really I can be really negative and super self-deprecating, you know, and I even know I shouldn't do that.
01:06:51:03 - 01:07:15:18
Speaker 3
And I can still do it because I have these these neural pathways, essentially neural highways, where for so long I've had this negative internal dialog that it's compounded that, you know, I think you have an interesting it's it's kind of one of your anecdotes in or something, but it's when we let a bad habit grow and take root, they become harder and harder to stop.
01:07:15:20 - 01:07:29:05
Speaker 3
That's a very small portion of it in your book, but it's essentially that it's like the more you you let these habits go, the harder it is for you to stop them in the future. And it's yeah, it's, it's a bummer, but it's reality.
01:07:29:07 - 01:08:01:02
Speaker 1
But it's comfortable, right? It's comfortable to feel uncomfortable because it's what we used to and to to change a habit means we need to be uncomfortable or we need to we need to accept something negative and we need to try and change that. And and then sometimes either people don't know how to change it or people don't want to change it potentially because they like the knowledge of where they're at as opposed to the knowledge where they may not be.
01:08:01:04 - 01:08:19:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think the hardest part there is just accepting, like you said, accepting that there might be something negative about the way you are thinking or the way that you are interacting with, you know, whether it's a sport or an activity The first step is realizing that there's a problem. And from there, you know, you can start to make changes.
01:08:19:11 - 01:08:25:20
Speaker 2
But I think a lot of people struggle with that. First part is just accepting that there's something to fix in the first place.
01:08:25:22 - 01:08:30:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. Completely agree. Yeah. Yeah. I think yeah.
01:08:30:13 - 01:08:52:04
Speaker 3
I think I mean that kind of ties into there's in your book you talk about a growth mindset and a fixed mindset. Right. And so yeah, like the fixed mindset is like you, you don't have this internal locus of control, you think things are outside of your, you're, you know, your power to influence things. You don't feel like you have agency in your life.
01:08:52:06 - 01:09:24:05
Speaker 3
And then there's this growth mindset and the growth mindset like paraphrasing here, but the knowledge, knowledge and ability and intelligence can be developed over time. And just having that, that self-awareness and understanding that those two different mindsets actually lead to drastically different outcomes. And so I think you referenced in your book, right? It's like there's there's several, you know, like psychological studies that have been done where you can give like two groups the same test.
01:09:24:09 - 01:09:45:11
Speaker 3
And if one group is willing to take on the challenge with like a growth mindset, like essentially this study was you offer them, you offer them a test and you say there's an easier test or a harder test. And the group that actually is willing to take on the harder test essentially does better consistently, right? So so it's like literally just your mindset.
01:09:45:14 - 01:10:14:09
Speaker 1
So sorry to interrupt you. So so the story behind that is there's a lady called Carol Dweck, and she did some some she did an experiment with a group of people, and she she she had a group of people and she she gave them each she gave them all a test. And she divided a group into two and, and, and one group was encouraged for results and the other group was encouraged for efforts.
01:10:14:11 - 01:10:37:17
Speaker 1
Now, she then gave both groups the option of doing an easier or harder test. Not a group that was encouraged for results opted for an easier test. They were focused on results and they wanted to make sure that they got good results. So they were anxious that they weren't going to perform because they needed to get good results.
01:10:37:19 - 01:11:02:19
Speaker 1
So they they chose the easier option. Now, the group that was encouraged for efforts, they chose the harder option because they thought okay, well, we be praised for the effort we put in. So let's let's put more effort into it. And and they were both given the same difficulty of tests. Now, the group was encouraged for the four four results.
01:11:03:01 - 01:11:37:02
Speaker 1
They performed worst and the group two was encouraged for effort. So and the fixed mindset goes back to being goal orientated as in being like classifying yourself as a climber based on grades and the opposite sizes. So the growth mindset process related. So you, you think about climbing as a process and you don't think about getting to the top order and getting to the top is a byproduct.
01:11:37:04 - 01:12:02:12
Speaker 1
So you climb a route and you fall off somewhere or you struggle psychologically, whatever it is that's, that's giving you information as to where you need to be working, whether that's you need to work harder on the move or or you need to work on your mind game. It's your mind that's holding you back. And that's the process relates to that's the growth mindset.
01:12:02:12 - 01:12:09:18
Speaker 1
So we focus on the process. We can understand how we can become better as climbers.
01:12:09:20 - 01:12:34:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it makes total sense. Like you, you reference in your book, essentially, like it's it's like we all grow up through this education system that just values the result. Right. And I know for me that that was a huge component of my life. Like I was looking for these results. But it is it is the process that's going to define you.
01:12:34:06 - 01:13:01:05
Speaker 3
That's going to make you, you know, a better, stronger climber. You're going to feel more engaged, you're going to be more fulfilled. Like that's actually what we're looking for is the process and progressing through that. And I know for myself, like I've been wanting to break through these larger grades and tried I've been just focusing larger subjective, by the way, but I've just been focused.
01:13:01:06 - 01:13:01:17
Speaker 4
I've just been.
01:13:01:17 - 01:13:23:07
Speaker 3
Focusing on these, on the actual result, like the grade. I'm not like, Oh, this climb is really beautiful and I'm really happy that I tried this and I feel like I'm better from trying this or like I haven't been focusing on that. I've been like this arbitrary number I need to get for some level of fulfillment or attainment and it hasn't been working.
01:13:23:09 - 01:13:24:07
Speaker 3
So yeah.
01:13:24:10 - 01:13:26:17
Speaker 1
Well I to you Kyle.
01:13:26:19 - 01:13:45:15
Speaker 2
So I kind of similar situation. I broke both my ankles. I had just gotten into a mindset where I was like, I didn't really have a lot of direction in my life. I was kind of in between careers. It was just after COVID, didn't know what I wanted to do, and I knew that I was good at climbing and that I you know, that was the one thing I wanted to do.
01:13:45:15 - 01:14:09:06
Speaker 2
And so I'm like, all right, well, if I'm going to be a better climber, I need to, like, start pushing myself more. And so instead of like being process oriented and education oriented and learning more about the craft, I just went straight to, I need to start climbing grades. And so I got myself in a situation where I was on a grade at my limit.
01:14:09:08 - 01:14:35:22
Speaker 2
The gear was bad, it was a new area and I just chose to override any sense of fear and made myself feel super calm and comfortable. And I got above a small barnat or not a ball, not a small micro offset nut and just let go of the wall because I knew I was I was like, I'm safe, whatever, I'll just let go because I knew there was a crux move coming and I didn't want to just like biff it and fall uncontrollably.
01:14:35:22 - 01:14:48:04
Speaker 2
So I just let go of the wall and the eyelet, the wire eyelet of the nut broke and then the two pieces below it ripped out. And so I ducked after 30 feet landed, standing straight up and just obliterated both my ankles.
01:14:48:04 - 01:14:50:14
Speaker 1
Oh my bloody Oh yeah.
01:14:50:14 - 01:15:13:21
Speaker 2
So to Max's point like yeah, that mindset of chasing grades now for me is just completely taken away. I have no interest in it anymore and just all about, you know, diversifying my focus in life. I've got a business I'm running now. We have this podcast we're doing, you know, I've got a motorcycle I drive now, and so I'm diversifying my skill sets.
01:15:13:21 - 01:15:25:06
Speaker 2
Diversifying my focus and climbing has become more of a hobby, and I'm honestly way happier as a person than I was back then when I was just obsessed with performance and outcomes.
01:15:25:10 - 01:15:52:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, the thing is, client is all about outcome, isn't it? It's all about the grades we climb. And it gives us it gives us an idea of how we compare ourselves. Others, um, yeah, Like you meet somebody new and then, and again, that's the ego that comes into play and like, it still happens to me.
01:15:52:22 - 01:16:13:01
Speaker 1
So me people, you tell me to, great. They climb. And if they climb harder grades, it makes you somehow feel a little bit inferior then. And you meet people who climb lower grades and you it makes you I know for me and I'm being super honest, it makes me feel a little bit more comfortable and I know it's weird.
01:16:13:02 - 01:16:17:00
Speaker 1
It's like, why? Why does that happen? Like, well.
01:16:17:01 - 01:16:43:22
Speaker 2
I think that it does say a lot about you. I think that while it is this subjective thing, I think that to be a 512 climber versus a 511 climber, it does say something about you. You do have more skills, you do have more experience in a way, you are more physically proficient. And so I think that, you know, there's like this pendulum, you know, like everyone's focused on the grades and then, you know, there's this swing back to like, oh, the grades don't matter, but I think there is a middle ground.
01:16:43:22 - 01:16:59:01
Speaker 2
I think that for me, I'm still interested in hearing about what grades people climb. I want to, you know, round them out as a climber because while it doesn't mean everything. I still think that there is something there. And I think that's why people can get so obsessed about it is because it does say a lot about you.
01:16:59:03 - 01:17:26:15
Speaker 1
It doesn't matter what level anyone climbs up. Like if if, if either of you are climbing it, your physical or your mental limit as well as me, we're all going to experience the same feelings. So, yes, we've all got that in common. And it doesn't matter what grade A1 clients. That's what's so cool about climbing, I think.
01:17:26:17 - 01:17:49:08
Speaker 2
For sure. And I think you just encapsulated part of the main emphasis of this entire podcast is that you don't have to climb hard grades to have these prolific experiences as a climber. And so we, you know, as representing the majority here. We are here to talk about all those experiences. And just like you said, it doesn't matter what grade you have.
01:17:49:10 - 01:17:50:23
Speaker 1
As of course, right?
01:17:51:01 - 01:18:06:02
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's an amazing sport. It's I think that's what something that's so special about climbing, for sure. Yeah, I think that's a pretty awesome place to to end the conversation here. Does anybody else have anything else? Kevin, Do you have anything else you wanted to put in?
01:18:06:04 - 01:18:31:10
Speaker 1
Just enjoy climbing. Just, just, just work on self awareness and, and allow that kind of reflection on yourself and your climbing performance to guide you as to where where you may need to do some more work as a climber. And I think we can all use that no matter whether we're Christian or non.
01:18:31:12 - 01:18:55:00
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. I think also the the mental takeaways from improving your performance in climbing will also transcend climbing into other areas of your life and that we all are overlooking these these these these mental areas that are an opportunity for improvement. Right. I think it's really rare now that we're not, you know, so.
01:18:55:00 - 01:19:10:18
Speaker 2
You hit the nail on the head there, man. That was like the the last piece I felt like we wanted to circle back is that all these lessons we're talking about and all these things we just spoke about have such a direct application to our own lives and our own goals in other areas. It's like this. That's why I love climbing.
01:19:10:18 - 01:19:32:22
Speaker 2
It's like these skills we develop to be a better climber, make us better humans, make us better people, make us better friends. It's like this this evolving personality in the way we look at life and the way we handle stress. Like it's just it's so healthy to talk about these kind of things. And like you said, Max, it just carries over into so many other areas in our lives.
01:19:32:23 - 01:20:01:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think people should just learn to open up. People should learn to open up and talk about these experiences because it's it's not always the done thing. We we may struggle to move physically or we may struggle to move mentally, but when we come down, we tell our friends who's beating us will go, I wasn't strong enough or I couldn't do to move when people were really mentally struggling.
01:20:01:16 - 01:20:06:12
Speaker 1
And I mean, it should be talked about really openly.
01:20:06:17 - 01:20:26:19
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, once again, I just want to say thanks so much for coming on. For anybody listening, climbing psychology, mind training for optimal Climbing Performance by Kevin Root. That is the book, man. And I really enjoyed reading and everything, and I think it's got a lot of really, really great advice for people and they're looking to work on their mental game in climbing.
01:20:26:21 - 01:20:36:05
Speaker 3
So yeah, Kevin, thanks so much for coming on the show and chatting with us and stuff and how can people get a hold of you? They need to, to, they want to email you, they have a question like that.
01:20:36:07 - 01:21:04:04
Speaker 1
So they can, they can get hold of me on my company email which is info at rise and summit echo dot UK or just just search rising summit on Google. I'm open to people chat to me, ask me questions always interested and I'll always try and help as long as I've got the time to do so. Send me an email or send me message via WhatsApp or whatever.
01:21:04:06 - 01:21:17:02
Speaker 1
I'll always try and help people or send people in the right direction of what they're looking for. And if I can help, I'll try and help. If if not all, I'll be honest with them.
01:21:17:04 - 01:21:22:08
Speaker 3
Awesome. And we'll put info in the description everything as well too. So yeah. Thanks so much, man.
01:21:22:10 - 01:21:24:15
Speaker 1
They're cool, man. Thanks, Max. Thanks, Carl. Jess.