The Climbing Majority

38 | Sky Diving, Climbing, and a Fatal Stabbing w/ Mike Tagg

April 24, 2023 Kyle Broxterman & Max Carrier Episode 38
The Climbing Majority
38 | Sky Diving, Climbing, and a Fatal Stabbing w/ Mike Tagg
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In our last conversation we sat down with a gentleman by the name of Mike Tagg where talked about the ethics behind climbing on wet rocks and provided a way for us, The Majority, to make better, well informed decisions on when we can climb after a a rain. But, we did not have the chance to do what we normally do on this show, hear Mike’s story, because I don’t know about you but we are always interested in hearing all the vastly different ways people find this magical sport, and how it impacts each individual's life so differently. Mike’s story is a bit different than most, rather than having climbing be the source of a traumatic injury, like Max and I, Mike found climbing after a life changing injury he sustained while sky diving. This shocking injury and the ultimate path towards climbing  it put Mike on was all for a reason it seems. Because only a year or two after he found climbing, he woke up one night to find himself standing in a stairwell, with a gun in his face, while his good friend and roommate was being horrifically murdered only 20ft away. Mike says without the sport of climbing to give his life purpose, and a way to deal with the PTSD caused by the event.. he is not so sure he would be sitting in his chair telling this story today. 

I must warn you that later in this episode, around an hour in, Mike will be sharing his detailed account of that tragic night. It contains graphic details that may not be suitable for younger audiences, so we suggest listening to this episode later if you have children around.

 
Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.

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00:00:00:15 - 00:00:25:14
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone. Kyle here. Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast, where Max and I sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides and recreational climbers alike to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber. If you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:28:00 - 00:00:46:15
Speaker 1
In our last conversation, we sat down with a gentleman by the name of Michael Tag, where we talked about the ethics behind climbing on wet rocks and provided a way for us, the majority, to make better, well informed decisions like when we should be climbing after a rain. But we did not have a chance to do what we normally do on the show, and that is to hear Mike's story.

00:00:47:07 - 00:01:06:20
Speaker 1
Because I don't know about you, but we're always interested in hearing about the vastly different ways that people find the sport and how it impacts each individual's life so differently. Mike Story is a bit different than most. Rather than having climbing be the source of a traumatic injury like Max and I, Mike found climbing after a life changing injury that he sustained while skydiving.

00:01:07:16 - 00:01:25:18
Speaker 1
This shocking injury and the ultimate path towards climbing it put Mike on was all for a reason, it seems, because only a year or two after he found climbing, he woke up one night to find himself standing in a stairwell with a gun in his face, all while a good friend and roommate was being horrifically murdered only 20 feet away.

00:01:26:18 - 00:01:43:23
Speaker 1
Mike says that without the sport of climbing to give his life purpose and a way to deal with the PTSD caused by the event, it's not so sure he'd be sitting here in this chair telling the story today. I must warn you that later in this episode, about an hour in, Mike will be sharing his detailed account of what happened to that tragic night.

00:01:45:01 - 00:02:14:22
Speaker 1
It does contain very graphic details that may not be suitable for younger audiences. So we suggest listening to this episode later, if you have children around. That being said, please sit back, relax and enjoy this conversation because Michael. All right, everybody, we are back. We are sitting down once again with Michael Tag. Michael, welcome to the show.

00:02:15:03 - 00:02:17:06
Speaker 2
Hey, guys. Thanks so much for having me again. It's a great honor.

00:02:17:07 - 00:02:19:14
Speaker 1
Welcome back to the show. Yeah, absolutely, man.

00:02:20:01 - 00:02:20:10
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:02:21:03 - 00:02:36:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, man. We I guess we can recap a little bit about the last episode and what we kind of found. So on the Facebook group, it actually didn't get as much traffic as I expected. I was expecting kind of this like, big discussion, but I don't know if you saw it. Did you see the Post? Michael? I did.

00:02:36:22 - 00:02:37:05
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:02:38:01 - 00:02:52:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. And it seemed like there is a couple of people that had some kind of extreme views and other people were saying, You're crazy. So it wasn't really too much of a hit. But did you get any response from any of your social group or anything like that in terms of the debate itself?

00:02:52:22 - 00:03:08:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, I've had some people reach out to me and they said really good things just about like the podcast in general. Well, the one thing that was funny that that stuck out is there like, yeah, your voice sounded so good, like, and I was like, What does that mean? And they're like, Oh, normally your voice doesn't sound like that.

00:03:08:20 - 00:03:28:05
Speaker 2
It sounded so deep. It sounded so good. And I was like, Well, thank you, you know. So I was stoked on that. But yeah, just as far as like the climbing in the app, I've had some different people reach out. Luckily, like not too many bugs yet. I think that we're kind of transitioning down here in Southern California, in Vegas, into less rain.

00:03:28:05 - 00:03:31:04
Speaker 2
So it's, you know, not as salient, just.

00:03:31:09 - 00:03:33:11
Speaker 1
Just missed it. Yeah, yeah, just missed it.

00:03:33:12 - 00:03:38:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, but I'm sure, like, once the rain starts to get going again, wherever that is, we're going to be right back to square one. So.

00:03:38:22 - 00:03:56:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, we'll do a repost of the episode and then we'll do a follow up with where your app is in a year or so. Totally awesome. And yeah, that's just a quick recap. So, you know, when we first got this episode started, we, you know, really wanted to dive into the topic of what rock and the solution that Mike had for that issue.

00:03:57:05 - 00:04:18:13
Speaker 1
If you missed that episode, just go back one episode with Mike Tag and you can check it out. But today we are here to dive into, you know, what the climbing majority does best, and that is to tell stories from, you know, people just like us, climbers just like us, and their stories on how they found climbing, what motivates them to climb, and then just some of the gives and takes that life kind of puts us through.

00:04:18:13 - 00:04:24:13
Speaker 1
So without further ado, Mike, kind of walk us through how did you find climbing kind of tell us that whole story.

00:04:24:21 - 00:04:43:21
Speaker 2
Sure. So it's an interesting story. It's a story of trauma. Finding climbing was actually the result of a traumatic skydiving accidents. And specifically, I don't know if you want me to dive into the whole skydiving story. You know, right now, but.

00:04:43:21 - 00:04:45:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, go ahead. Tell us how.

00:04:45:05 - 00:04:46:17
Speaker 4
You found me. It sounds great.

00:04:47:01 - 00:04:47:16
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:04:48:07 - 00:05:10:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's. It's so long, so. Well, yeah, I'll give the. The spark notes of it. So at the time, this is about five years ago, so I've been climbing for about five years. Five years ago I had rediscovered skydiving. I got on my first skydive, which was a tandem jump with my sister's fiancee at the time. Totally fell in love with it.

00:05:10:18 - 00:05:12:10
Speaker 2
Like, I don't know if you guys have been for.

00:05:12:10 - 00:05:14:19
Speaker 4
Second, but is like, say, I fell in love with her.

00:05:15:17 - 00:05:20:17
Speaker 3
I was like, oh, like my brain is auto body. Later go to a jack.

00:05:20:17 - 00:05:21:12
Speaker 4
But I had.

00:05:21:20 - 00:05:22:12
Speaker 3
No idea.

00:05:24:10 - 00:05:43:15
Speaker 2
But yeah so like, it's like the for me, skydiving is like the most amount of just like life that you can pack in to a small amount of time and was like, yeah, 15 minutes. You're on the ground, then you're out of the plane, you're back down. And I was completely hooked, like from the first jump. So I went on.

00:05:43:15 - 00:06:07:04
Speaker 2
After that I got my license and I was just raging as hard as possible. Every weekend I was going just like trying to get as much jumps and I was like a dirt bag around the airfield. But unfortunately, I got into a situation where I was traveling around to different skydiving locations when I was probably too early in my career, which is something you generally don't want to do.

00:06:07:04 - 00:06:35:14
Speaker 2
And skydiving just because weather conditions can vary drastically. Landing conditions are obviously very important when you can come from different areas, it can pick up and stop, you know, in different areas and you might not know that. So I was coming in to land my parachute and basically as a short primer, like the way a parachute works is when it opens, the parachute is you can imagine it being pointed straight down, right like the parachute nose is down.

00:06:36:02 - 00:06:53:10
Speaker 2
And the reason for that is that's kind of what moves you forward. You know, you don't want a parachute that's like level because it's going to take you forever to get down. You want some like some you know, you want it to to to bring you down quick. So you have to break lines that go up to the top of the parachute on the back, left and back right end.

00:06:53:10 - 00:07:11:06
Speaker 2
And when you're coming into land, you pull those lines down and it slows you down. And you know, you can if you're good, you can run it out. If you're me, you each hit you most of the time. But basically I was coming in in a downwind, which means the wind was at my back. So I was going really fast.

00:07:11:20 - 00:07:34:10
Speaker 2
And what they teach you in skydiving is when you commit to flaring or pulling those brake lines, you don't want to let go of the brake lines because you can imagine if you do so, if you pull the brake lines and then you let go of the brake lines, well, now your parachutes pointed straight down and it's going to pile drive you into the ground and you don't have enough speed, you don't have enough left to pull out of it.

00:07:34:21 - 00:07:50:21
Speaker 2
So I was actually I actually did not do that. I stuck to my training. You're supposed to just keep your flare going and then do what's called a parachute landing fall. So you kind of fall on your feet and you're supposed to roll it out, which to me, like, made perfect sense, is like my young adult, like 20 year old mind.

00:07:50:21 - 00:08:14:04
Speaker 2
I'm like, Oh, yeah, I could hit the ground and roll a couple times and I'll be fine. I'll, you know, brush the dust right off. So when you're actually in the situation though, it's totally different. So I held my, my flare down and it kicked my parachute up. So I got I was coming in, I floated at about ten feet and then I flared really hard and it pushed my parachute up to about 20 or 25 feet.

00:08:14:22 - 00:08:36:19
Speaker 2
And I lost all of my forward speed. So if you're the parachute needs air moving through it to, like, keep inflated. So I flared so hard that basically the air went out of the cells. And I don't I think I'm not 100% sure what happened in the moments immediately after this. I might have been a little concussed. I'm not I'm not sure.

00:08:36:19 - 00:08:53:11
Speaker 2
But I remember basically like flaring, losing, you know, altitude really fast going, oh, my God, oh, my God. And then I was like, Oh, I'm just going to try to run it out randomly. Like, I just thought, Oh, maybe I could run this out. I put my right foot down and like a imagine like a sound of a two by four on your knee.

00:08:53:11 - 00:09:11:16
Speaker 2
Just snap. This snapped in two. So I didn't feel any of the pain when that happened. So I came to wondering. I was like I was in some pain, but I like what was on my mind was what was that snap? You know, like, that was clearly not good. You know.

00:09:11:17 - 00:09:14:15
Speaker 3
A couple that's not. Yeah.

00:09:15:11 - 00:09:37:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. So like, Yeah. So it came down, snapped and I think I was wearing a helmet, but I might have been knocked out because I think I had come to I just have no way of knowing I didn't have a camera and didn't have my phone or anything on me. So I kind of like was just grabbing the ground, you know, like I'd never been in like the pain kind of came in waves and went, Oh, man.

00:09:37:18 - 00:09:59:03
Speaker 2
So, you know, again, at the time I'm like a young 20 year old guy. I think I'm invincible. You know, nothing bad is going to happen to me. So I had two first thoughts when I hit the ground and I heard it snap. The first one was embarrassment. I was like, Oh, man. I was like, I'm still on a license and everybody's going to run up to me and it's going to be so embarrassing.

00:09:59:03 - 00:10:13:09
Speaker 2
You know, It would be like falling on a climb or something, you know, something that you shouldn't have fallen on. And it's just kind of like no one would have cared. But in my mind it's that it's just embarrassing thing. So my vanity was intact and then at the time I was also a runner, so I was running a lot.

00:10:13:19 - 00:10:35:14
Speaker 2
And in my brain at that time, I'm thinking, Man, this sucks. I'm not going to be able to run for at least two weeks. Like I had never been injured. I had no concept of like how bad, you know, like it was going to be and the trials and tribulations to come. So those two thoughts were in my head, and I'm kind of waiting, thinking, Oh, this is going to be so embarrassing.

00:10:35:14 - 00:10:55:13
Speaker 2
I'm waiting for people to come up to me and find out and I'm waiting. I'm waiting and waiting. And all of a sudden, probably like 20 minutes goes by. And then I look at the airfield and I see another load of jumpers going. So I see another plane take off. And that was my sign of like, Oh, they have no idea where I am.

00:10:55:19 - 00:11:20:06
Speaker 2
You know, no one knows that I'm out here and there's jumpers like coming down. But I had landed pretty far away from the airfield, so nobody knew where I was. They should have. There are checks against that. But this particular airfield is, you know, I'll withhold the name obviously, but like, yeah, they're not like the best of the best as far as Southern California facilities go, really nice people.

00:11:20:06 - 00:11:38:00
Speaker 2
But, you know, not the top of the top of the line. But yeah, I mean, they're human. They made a mistake. They didn't know where I was. And I realized, well, I got to get myself back, you know, or else no one's going to come. I don't have a phone. They don't know where I am. And yeah, I'm lost if I don't get myself back, No one's coming.

00:11:38:11 - 00:12:00:05
Speaker 2
So I undid my leg straps and I crawled over to my parachute, which was a rental. It was bright blue. So I still don't know how all the jumpers were landing and they, like, didn't see the parachute like it was. It's bizarre to me now, and it was weird to me then, but after I did that, I put my parachute out a little more to be like an S.O.S. kind of.

00:12:00:16 - 00:12:29:18
Speaker 2
And then I proceeded to start crab walking back, you know, like, like right leg raised up in the air, crab walking back to the airfield. And it was so weird because I got through it. It was a long crawl, very painful. And odd. There were three loads of jumpers that went before I made it back. So I had people like I would see people waving to me like I would be yelling, Help, help, like waving my arms.

00:12:29:18 - 00:12:57:06
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah, like kind of a hot day. You see that like, mirage and like the horizon. And I just see, like, people, like, walking and they, like, look over at me and this one guy just, like, looks. He's like, Oh, what's that? And I'm like, Help! Help! And then he just waves to me like someone like crab walking, you know, in full parachute garb is a normal thing, you know, like, I don't know how that how they miss it or what, but I had a few a few situations like that where people were just wild and right by me, you know?

00:12:57:06 - 00:13:17:09
Speaker 2
And I was like, I literally I had a thought of like in my like dead, you know, am I sure I was losing my mind Like it was racing all the adrenaline. I'm like, This is such a weird scenario. I almost can't believe it's happening to me, you know? And I made it all the way back. So I thought, I still feel so bad like I shouldn't, but I make it.

00:13:17:09 - 00:13:24:08
Speaker 2
I crab walk my way back to the airfield and they have an area outside where all the first time jumpers are. So all the tandems.

00:13:24:13 - 00:13:27:00
Speaker 3
They're going for there and there's me like, oh.

00:13:27:09 - 00:13:47:10
Speaker 2
You know, crusty old pirate guy going, Yeah, somebody get me an ambulance. Got here. But, you know, like, say like crab walked over past all the tandems and they're all horrified, audible gasps, you know, everybody's gasping. And it was it was a whole deal. So they, you know, and the people who are there called the load organizers are the people who should have known that I was out there and injured.

00:13:47:16 - 00:14:10:06
Speaker 2
They all of a sudden sprang into action and they they called an ambulance and this is this will be a funny part for for Max, as I remember listening to yours. Then you guys talked about the health care differences between Canada. Yeah. So like, you know, the ambulance came and I had never been injured like this, but I knew that the ambulance is probably not going to be covered.

00:14:10:16 - 00:14:21:21
Speaker 2
So generally about five grand if you're. Yeah. So like they came and they basically they're like, all right, well, we're going to take you. And I was like, well, is this covered by insurance? And they're like, Well, we don't know. And I was like, Well.

00:14:22:03 - 00:14:23:01
Speaker 1
Not they're not. They're just.

00:14:23:01 - 00:14:41:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. I'm like, okay, I'm not I'm not going then. And the guy like, put his hand on my shoulder and he was like, Son, he's like, he's like, You might not be in pain right now, but he's like, I guarantee you you're going to be in so much pain in 30 minutes that if I leave you here right now, that they're going to call me again and I'm going to have to turn around wherever I'm at.

00:14:41:15 - 00:14:57:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. And pick you up again. And so I was like, still not going, you know, like, so I turned around to the airfield and I yelled because like, all the tandems, everybody's watching this. At this point. I'm like, Can anybody give me a ride to the airfield? I just like yelled out. And one of the other jumper guys felt bad enough.

00:14:57:10 - 00:15:08:00
Speaker 2
He like, walked up and he's like, Yeah, bro. He's like, I got you. I'll give you a ride to the hospital. He's like, Just tell me where to go. I got you. And I was like, All right, one win today. Like.

00:15:08:10 - 00:15:15:23
Speaker 4
Did you do you break right or left foot? Yeah, right foot. Okay, so gas pedal. So you're definitely not driving yourself?

00:15:16:15 - 00:15:17:16
Speaker 3
No. Yeah.

00:15:17:17 - 00:15:36:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. So yeah. And then I lost a bit of that as I go. So they take me. I had a Kaiser. Luckily I was insured, so I had Kaiser and there was a Kaiser in Bakersfield close to the airfield. So I was lucky. And I go there and they, they set my bone, you know, like because it was like a full tib fib.

00:15:36:17 - 00:15:55:23
Speaker 2
So the tibia they like, pulled it back into place and reset it. Um, and I'll never forget it. I had this old doctor come in and mind you, I'm a 20 year old kid who has no, I've never been injured like this. I have. I've never had to go through insurance or a hospital or anything like this. I don't know the process.

00:15:55:23 - 00:16:13:03
Speaker 2
So the old this old surgeon comes in and the only thing he says to me, he goes, he goes, So you are you getting surgery tonight? Are you staying? And I was like, I don't think so. Like, I kind of just want to go home. I wasn't planning on staying in Bakersfield and I don't live here. And he just he just laughed, he cackle.

00:16:13:08 - 00:16:46:13
Speaker 2
He was like, He's like that. And he goes, he says to me, he goes, Swelling is going to be your worst enemy in the coming days, and walks out of the room. And I was like, What? What? What does that mean? So I'm like, I was weird. What a weirdo. So I called my folks at the time, so they came and got me and I went back and then the next day I went to the Kaiser where I live and I see the surgeon and the surgeon goes, I'm like asking them like, okay, well, can we set the when's the surgery?

00:16:46:20 - 00:16:59:14
Speaker 2
And he goes, Oh, he's like, We're not even going to set the date for two weeks. And I was like, Why? And he's like, Well, the swelling is so bad that if I opened up, if I open you up right now, I wouldn't be able to put you back together. You know, like your skin would just fall apart.

00:16:59:14 - 00:17:01:19
Speaker 2
So I was like, Oh, that's what the organ.

00:17:01:19 - 00:17:02:03
Speaker 3
That.

00:17:03:00 - 00:17:22:17
Speaker 2
Didn't tell me in the room, you know, like you've been for me. Maybe I would have decided to, like, have the surgery that night. But for whatever reason, he didn't do it. So basically from there, I spent two weeks with nothing. You know, they they basically were just like, there's really nothing we can do for you. They gave me a prescription for Tylenol.

00:17:23:09 - 00:17:42:17
Speaker 2
So they gave me like, yeah, they didn't give me. They're like, yeah, here's here's their prescription for Tylenol. And good luck to you. I'll see you in two weeks. You know, like he's like, luckily I have an appointment that you can book. I think it was like three weeks out. But yeah, so basically I just had like a full broken tip bed and they're like, You just got to sit with it for three weeks and then we'll figure it out from there.

00:17:43:09 - 00:17:58:15
Speaker 2
So I spent three weeks just laid up, you know, and basically just like that's when everything started to like, set in and that's when like, yeah, the real pain started to happen. Like physically the physical side of it, mental side too. But the physical side came in the aftermath of the accident. Boy, was it something.

00:17:59:21 - 00:18:06:04
Speaker 1
Dude, I'm so lucky. Lots of questions here. Why just Tylenol did you even ask?

00:18:06:09 - 00:18:09:17
Speaker 2
I had no, I had no concept at the time. I like I you know, you didn't know.

00:18:09:17 - 00:18:10:20
Speaker 1
You're like, Dude, I need oxygen.

00:18:10:20 - 00:18:11:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, no, I didn't.

00:18:11:15 - 00:18:14:00
Speaker 1
Pain. You're just like, okay, I guess this is good. Yeah.

00:18:14:00 - 00:18:34:06
Speaker 2
I mean, they prescribed me OxyContin after the first surgery, which, I mean, I guess, I mean, I maybe for the better that I didn't get prescribed that I may have heard really bad things like that. The addiction rate's so high with it, but like, I never they gave me, like, the highest strength. I had told them my story, like the nurse and she had talked to the doctor.

00:18:34:06 - 00:18:51:16
Speaker 2
And then after that, they're like, Oh, we're going to get you. Like, you know, we're going to make sure you have no pain after this. Like we're going to get you the best prescription, blah, blah, blah. So they gave me the highest strength of OxyContin and it didn't nothing for me like it basically like the pain would it would come in waves.

00:18:51:18 - 00:19:10:18
Speaker 2
And what was so weird was that it was like a nerve pain. It wasn't like like the ankle hurt and everything. Anytime I touched it. Yeah, massive pain, but the worse was like just sitting. Like I would be sitting on the couch with my roommates and just waves of, like, it felt like my leg was on fire. Like someone had, like a torch, like a blow torch all around my skin.

00:19:10:23 - 00:19:32:21
Speaker 2
It's like my skin was on fire. And that was like. Like all I could think of. I would tell my roommates at the time, I was like, All right, here comes another wave. Like, I'm checking out. Like, I can't do anything like that concept or like the phrase when like people say, You're entering a world of pain, you know, like, I love Suicide note, I love Big Lebowski, I love Walter.

00:19:32:21 - 00:19:48:19
Speaker 2
And he's like, he's like entering a world of pain like that. That was going through my mind and I was like, Oh, I get I get where that came from. Because, like, I learned then that there's pain so bad that you can't even like, I couldn't even do. I was useless. Like anything could have been happening around me.

00:19:48:19 - 00:20:07:00
Speaker 2
And it was just like every second was just spent getting to the next second and not passing out. And it was just like, all I can do is just grab the couch and just like I like tell myself that it's going to go away. And I would take the full strength OxyContin through like I think I was prescribed like three or four times a day or something like that.

00:20:07:00 - 00:20:17:05
Speaker 2
I would take it every three or 4 hours on the dot just because I was like, If this stuff is working and it's this painful, I don't even want to know what it would be like without this stuff.

00:20:17:16 - 00:20:19:04
Speaker 1
You know? And this is after the surgery.

00:20:19:04 - 00:20:37:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, this was after the surgery. So before the surgery, Yeah. It's was just as bad. And then after the surgery, when I had the OxyContin, it just didn't really do anything. Yeah, it was just like, maybe helped a little bit, but, like, I took it out of just fear. I was like, I can't even imagine. Know, this is the full strength of the stuff and like, it's not even doing anything for me.

00:20:37:12 - 00:20:44:04
Speaker 2
I like I'm going to take it religiously because like, I'm terrified of like, not taking it and seeing what that would that would be.

00:20:44:05 - 00:21:07:08
Speaker 4
Well, I think pain is such an interesting one. You know, everybody has their own tolerance and different levels and bodies process things differently as well. But, you know, I've shared similar experiences to you, Mike, where just or even for me actually prior, like I had a really, really painful experience with my injury and then post-op as well. But yeah, it's just truly unbelievable and unbearable.

00:21:07:08 - 00:21:27:15
Speaker 4
And when I hear stories like this, I kind of think of more iconic like mountain legends or stories where you hear like into the void, like certain people, you know, break way more and survive for like four days and extricate themselves on the sides of mountains. And and obviously, you don't know to what level they're in shock or anything.

00:21:27:15 - 00:21:55:19
Speaker 4
So you can't fully project that kind of pain. But obviously, the assumption is way worse situation. So it's like unfathomable in my mind to even project like how someone could experience, you know, what you're talking about or what I've experienced for days on end. It just doesn't even it doesn't beggars belief that people can experience that. I think it's really interesting that you're getting prescribed oxy, I guess it was five years ago and now all the lawsuits with Purdue and stuff.

00:21:55:19 - 00:22:32:03
Speaker 4
But I think even five years ago it would have been really well known that OxyContin is highly addictive, able to be sold as a street drug. It's killing huge amounts of people. They just have way better painkillers like they have slow release hydromorphone. That's really, really good. And that you can't, like, chop it up or snorted easily. It's just it's interesting to me to hear that that they would be prescribing oxy I know for myself in the hospital I actually I had a doctor who my surgeon had previously had a patient who she had prescribed opioids to.

00:22:32:03 - 00:22:51:18
Speaker 4
I think it was hydromorphone. And and the person ended up years like why they're from the surgery or something, became an addict. And then they eventually, you know, years later, I think, died or something. And so this was the story she gave me and she was refusing to to prescribe me opioids. And you know, I've broken quite a few things.

00:22:51:18 - 00:23:13:11
Speaker 4
I've been through surgeries and I was just like, this is not going to fly. I was like, there's no way you're not prescribing the opioids coming through this surgery. And, you know, and then eventually I remember, like after I got out of the surgery and I'm in a wheelchair, I like was rolling around the surgical area and was asking around for a nurse practitioner.

00:23:14:09 - 00:23:35:00
Speaker 4
And I had known from an emergency medical responder course. I'd done that nurse practitioner, because there was a lady there who was a nurse practitioner taking like a pair medicine course with me, and they can actually prescribe medications. They're like essentially close, very close to a doctor and so then I find this lady and she was she's a why do you want a nurse practitioner?

00:23:35:00 - 00:23:51:16
Speaker 4
I tell her, like, this doctor will prescribe me opioids and I'm like, bargaining with her. And she's like, Well, that's really weird, like looking at me all fucked up with my legs up in a wheelchair, you know? And I'm like, Yeah, like, can you please help me here? Like, I really need some painkillers like this is going to be literally awful for, like, a month.

00:23:52:08 - 00:23:55:13
Speaker 4
But yeah, it was really bizarre story. Sorry, I just had to rent that out, so.

00:23:56:01 - 00:23:58:01
Speaker 3
No, I love it. So funny.

00:23:58:01 - 00:24:04:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's crazy. I, I that wasn't an issue for me. They were kind of just like, take as much as you want.

00:24:05:01 - 00:24:07:00
Speaker 3
But I think it was because of the.

00:24:07:11 - 00:24:26:02
Speaker 1
I think it was because of the severity of my calcaneus fracture. Every person who saw that X-ray was just like, Oh. And so I think they were just like, Please take whatever you need. And yeah, I mean, just back to the pain. Similar thing, like even on the full prescription, I was taking it like every 3 hours or something like that.

00:24:26:02 - 00:24:45:01
Speaker 1
And I was still just on the ground hyperventilating. So like, leg up, like, just searing pain. And it was like that for a couple of days. And until I got to the point where I was, like, doped up enough to just be able to sit on the couch and watch TV without having to, like, not pass out, you know, there's just like this crazy, crazy pain.

00:24:45:01 - 00:25:03:16
Speaker 1
And like you said, I used to be a runner, too. And so like that, that resonates with me a lot. Like, that's one of the biggest things you lose. And I still have loss to this day. It's been almost a year and a half and I still like running is a struggle. I'm I used to be a fucking runner and now I'm not, you know, I'm like, barely.

00:25:03:16 - 00:25:05:09
Speaker 1
I could barely call myself a walker.

00:25:05:12 - 00:25:07:23
Speaker 3
Yeah. So. Yeah, So it's.

00:25:07:23 - 00:25:31:23
Speaker 1
It's, it's, it's a tough pill to swallow, man. And yeah, just like, you know, you realize that right away. And you probably, you know, you definitely don't realize the severity of it until you start going online and hearing podcasts like this. Yeah, reading the articles. I think the one the one thing that I remember the most is I read an article and this person was like, Yeah, like there's not a it's been six years and there's not a day that goes by that I don't, I'm not reminded that I broke my heart.

00:25:32:00 - 00:25:53:17
Speaker 1
It's like, no and like it's a heavy statement and I think like, yeah, at first you take that as like, oh my God, I'm fucked for six years. I'm never gonna be able to do anything. But it's impressive what you can get away with, even with like a severe deficit, like a broken ankle that's healed and is stiff and you have atrophy in your calf like you can get away with a lot.

00:25:53:17 - 00:26:11:21
Speaker 1
And I think the sport of climbing is really forgiving in that way because you most of the time do have four points of attachment to the wall. And so you can compensate heavily for that weakened limb. Whereas if like, you know, if you're an NFL player or you're a football player or a runner or a soccer player, like you're pretty much FOX.

00:26:11:21 - 00:26:27:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, with an injury like ours. And so that was one thing that was really, really beneficial in my eyes about climbing, was that, you know, you can come back from a pretty traumatic injury to your limbs and I'd say in general and, and still get back to the sport and some capacity because of how low impact it is.

00:26:27:17 - 00:26:40:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, So I thought that was really cool, like a realization after the fact. Totally. For anybody out there, that's it's fucked right now with some broken ankles, man. Like, you might not be the same, but you're still going to be able to come back. That's what matters.

00:26:41:00 - 00:26:59:11
Speaker 2
It might not seem like you're going to come back, but it might take a while. But you will, you know, and I don't know if I'm sure you guys remember, but like I still remember where I was when I could actually, like, walk again. Like I had that the first time I got the cadence where I was like, Oh, I can actually like, I remember this feeling like left or right, left, right foot.

00:26:59:11 - 00:27:12:16
Speaker 2
I just like what I was living in this apartment and I had like it was like a trauma place that was just down the road. And I just I got up one day and I'm like, Oh, the timing's right. I got the okay from the surgeon. I'm going to walk down, you know, to get some. Schwarzenegger Yeah, super good, right?

00:27:12:16 - 00:27:28:01
Speaker 2
And like, I just started walking and, like, I couldn't stop. I think I, like, walked down. I ate the former there. I walk back to the apartment, I walk back to the former place, walk back to the apartment. Like I was just so stoked because it was like a novel feeling. It was like, wow, I miss like having this cadence and having my mobility back.

00:27:28:01 - 00:27:48:16
Speaker 2
And I mean, that's definitely an aspect that, you know, you don't like realize until you've lost your mobility. It's really like a almost like a sense, like a sight. You know, I wouldn't go that far to say it's like, oh, it's like losing your sight or losing your, you know, your smell. But it's like having your mobility and being able to move is something that's just like, I mean, it's right up there.

00:27:48:16 - 00:28:21:22
Speaker 2
Like and if you can't if you don't have your mobility, you lose a portion of your independence. And especially if it happens like totally unexpected, It's it was really tough. And I mean, I like the thing I'll say, like I like trying to look on the bright side of things. Like one positive thing to come out of it is that back then, I mean, I was also like a skater at the time and I was just rocking vans like the thinnest soled shoes and like I had no concept of like protecting your joints and like, you know, run all the time.

00:28:21:22 - 00:28:41:00
Speaker 2
But it was like in vans or I would have like really cheap, like A6 from Amazon. And when I would hike, I was a huge I still am a huge hiker like, like to do distance and I didn't know anything about tracking polls and even if I was backpacking, I wouldn't use them because it's like, Oh, I don't want to be that guy who's out there, you know, you get made fun of, I've accepted it.

00:28:41:00 - 00:29:04:23
Speaker 2
I'm okay with that. Like, but you know, so but I tell people like, like, look at my tracking polls because I know how to use them. So from the the injuries. So it's like anytime anybody like my buddies will just screw with me, you know, make fun of me. But I'm like, look at these tracking polls and like, all the damage that you see, the bent ness of them, like all like that, they're just marked up, you know, chewed up.

00:29:04:23 - 00:29:23:05
Speaker 2
I'm like, all that is just trauma that I've taken off my good joint and my bad joint. You know, it's all like if I had not had this injury, you know, like maybe however many years down the line, maybe I would have started to get arthritis and the good foot and the right foot, you know, just from not realizing that I needed to take care of myself.

00:29:23:05 - 00:29:42:09
Speaker 2
So, yeah, of all the bad things that can be gleaned from a traumatic injury like that, I still like I look back and I'm thankful for like the awareness that I've gained in so many different areas from the incident, be it like the medical field or like different equipment to like taking care of your body. Like all that I learned from that.

00:29:42:09 - 00:29:46:05
Speaker 2
So it's it wasn't a total, total write off loss but yeah.

00:29:46:13 - 00:30:12:13
Speaker 4
For sure it's unfortunate that sometimes you have to lose something to understand and appreciate, you know, what it was. And I think now as a person, I'm so much more resilient from this experience and in a lot of ways it's hard to say thankful, but really it actually has produced some really unbelievable, amazing things in my life. Obviously, if I could wave a magic wand and take back the articular damage to my ankles, I would 100% wave that wand.

00:30:13:08 - 00:30:37:19
Speaker 4
But ultimately, you know, I think you can change expectations. You're more resilient than you think you are. And once you change those expectations, even though you might have some new limitations, you can still really have an amazing life and go do some really, really awesome things. Obviously, there's some caveats. There's people who are so irrevocably damaged and even those people, if you have the right mindset, you can make the best of what you have.

00:30:38:04 - 00:31:02:14
Speaker 4
So, you know, obviously, you know, for first goal should be stay injury free. But if you are suffering from injury or you're hurt, it's not the end of the line, you know, and psychology your mentality to to how you perceive the situation and the actions you take to change the outcomes in your life. Yeah, like you can you definitely have some agency there to make your life better, to make the best of your life.

00:31:03:07 - 00:31:21:09
Speaker 2
And I'll say this to you absolutely. Because at the time, you know, I again, young kids, stupid, think I'm invincible. I had no concept of like doing the physical therapy I had. I thought it was like a rip off at that time. As stupid as that sounds, I was just like, Oh, I have to pay deductibles for this.

00:31:21:09 - 00:31:48:08
Speaker 2
It's out of pocket. Do the physical therapy. Like if you're somebody who right now is injured and you're recovering as soon as you possibly can do the physical therapy. And what I wish somebody had told me as to the reason why you need to do the physical therapy, among others, is your range of motion, because they will help you to get your full range of motion back, which in if you have a broken ankle scenario, is like pretty much the most important thing for long term health of your ankle.

00:31:48:18 - 00:32:10:07
Speaker 2
Like if you think about it like, yeah, it's never going to it'll, it'll be a little different for the rest of your life. But if you can keep that range of motion, the articular damage, like what's, what's going to get worn down is spread over a wider area. Like if you, if you're like me and you don't do the physical therapy like you should, and then it gets locked up and it gets frozen and you don't have that range of motion, then you run into problems like that.

00:32:10:08 - 00:32:37:04
Speaker 2
The you get like spotting where your bone on bone basically like you don't have any articular cartilage. And then that gets tough and because like still with climbing like my butt, I'm lucky enough, I don't know how I managed it, but like, I don't I have some pain every day, but not I mean, I'm significantly happy with like where I've come and what I've progressed as far as pain goes, but still with slab because my ankles like, you know, it's stiff.

00:32:37:13 - 00:32:55:13
Speaker 2
So that's the one area of climbing where I'm like, Oh man, I don't know if I'll ever be as good as, you know, the slab crushers, you know, because like, I don't have that full range of motion. But then I'm also like, well, I hate Slab anyway, so and I have a good excuse. So like if anybody's like, oh, if I, if I can't do a slab right chicken out, I'm like, no, it's because my ankle did.

00:32:56:03 - 00:32:57:00
Speaker 2
It's not because I saw.

00:32:58:12 - 00:32:58:21
Speaker 3
The.

00:32:59:07 - 00:33:02:04
Speaker 1
It's you get pain like in your ankle or is it calf atrophy.

00:33:02:21 - 00:33:14:04
Speaker 2
A little bit of both. So I'm fortunate enough my girlfriend is probably, in my opinion, the best physical therapist in Ventura County, if not the state, she is no bias. The doctor house.

00:33:14:09 - 00:33:14:17
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:33:15:09 - 00:33:34:21
Speaker 2
She's like she's literally like I call her all the time. She's like the doctor house of physical therapy, basically. And it's just like, like so dedicated like, loves her patients. She's like total book nerd like, knows everything. I call I call her like, I always tell people she's like a huge reader and she'll read books like The Snap of a Finger, like, faster than I've ever seen.

00:33:34:21 - 00:33:49:18
Speaker 2
Like I always tell people, I'm like, Have you seen that movie Dune? Where that guy that that he he like, rolls his eyes in the back of his head and all of a sudden he's like, process, like all the information in the world that's like, that's my girlfriend the books, she just, like, rolls her eyes in the back of her head and all of a sudden the book's done.

00:33:49:19 - 00:34:07:01
Speaker 2
You know, it's like some physical therapy textbook, you know, from like the nineties or something and boom, it's done. So luckily I have her, thank God, and she's helped me to come back probably like I probably owe it to her, like where I'm at right now because, you know, we live together so she can just work on my foot and just break it.

00:34:07:01 - 00:34:08:05
Speaker 2
That scar tissue and stuff.

00:34:09:01 - 00:34:09:21
Speaker 1
That's awesome.

00:34:09:21 - 00:34:12:04
Speaker 2
So yeah, that's that's also a huge boon for me.

00:34:13:11 - 00:34:15:05
Speaker 4
To make it, man. Good for.

00:34:15:05 - 00:34:15:12
Speaker 3
You.

00:34:17:03 - 00:34:34:09
Speaker 4
So I feel like we've kind of we've kind of crossed into this, you know, this range here. We've gotten your, your traumatic skydiving accident and all the humor and terribleness of it. So, you know, how did how did that kind of evolve into climbing?

00:34:34:11 - 00:34:50:22
Speaker 2
Well, so when I was injured, I was so I was laid up and super depressed. And so my buddy was like, well, I've got some time off of work. Do you I know you've got some time off. You know, whatever you're doing, you're not doing anything but sitting, watching the TV, you know, like, do you want to come with me on a big road trip?

00:34:50:22 - 00:35:14:02
Speaker 2
So we started in where we live, like Thousand Oaks, Southern California. We went all the way up the coast to Seattle and then all the way back down through the that, you know, central Oregon, Washington and California. And on the way back down, we stopped by for my first time, Yosemite. So it was my first time. I had never even seen a picture or maybe like when I was a kid.

00:35:14:02 - 00:35:44:09
Speaker 2
But I didn't know what Yosemite was. So we drove through and, you know, stopped through the I can't remember maybe Glacier Point, but like, you drive through the tunnel and then you just get hit with the valley. And I saw El Cap and it just like I don't know the adventure me just looked at that and immediately was born a desire like I was like I got to know, like I had heard about climbers, I heard about rock climbing, but not much other than like, you know, hearing stuff in the background.

00:35:44:19 - 00:36:04:09
Speaker 2
And so I was just immediately incensed to like, I got to like, once I get home, I'm going to look this up and just try to research everything I can. And I'm a huge documentary guy. So I looked up online and I found Valley Uprising. So that had just come out. So I'm of that generation. So I had found Valley Uprising, I think it was on Netflix.

00:36:04:19 - 00:36:24:16
Speaker 2
And you know, as I was still recovering and I loved the history, I like watching that that documentary to such a good job of like painting the history, like there's such a rich history of the sport and that originally I like saw that documentary and I just jive with some part of my soul, like who I was and, you know, who I am.

00:36:24:16 - 00:36:40:03
Speaker 2
And like, I was like, Well, skydiving is great, but it's also really expensive, not unheard for me to go through 3 to $500 a weekend, you know, easy. Just gone. Yeah, three, 3 to 500. So I'm like, I can jump.

00:36:40:05 - 00:36:41:20
Speaker 1
Yes. Or like rentals or what.

00:36:41:21 - 00:36:59:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, they you it's generally now it's more expensive but it's when I was jumping it's 25 bucks a jump and then you rent gear and they do 25 bucks a jump for gear or you can spend 125 for the whole day. So you got to you got to do at least like four or five jumps to make that worth it.

00:36:59:11 - 00:37:19:05
Speaker 2
But then if you get there early to do four or five, you're going end up doing ten or however many. So like it adds up. Oh, wow. Yeah. So I was like, Well, I need a cheaper alternative and I don't want to jump into the skydiving again just right yet. So I looked up after Valley Uprising and I found that there's a local gym in Boulder.

00:37:19:05 - 00:37:42:18
Speaker 2
Dash and I headed over there as a total Gumby. I had no no concept of anything. Basically, I was just like wandering around the gym, like asking different groups of people top roping if I could join them because I thought that that would show. I mean, if you're new like it is, it is still like people will accept you, but it's not something that's like, normally done, you know, like, you know, you don't like walk around like a hobo like me, you know, like asking people, Oh, can I get it?

00:37:42:19 - 00:38:04:20
Speaker 2
Can I get a blade, you know, like at the gym? But so I did that. And that day the owner of the gym, his name's Christian, you know, super cool guy. Also like, was climbing in the seventies with some of the greats. Like, he's like a classic climber himself. He was there and there was a guy who showed up at the gym named CONAN.

00:38:05:03 - 00:38:19:15
Speaker 2
And he was my exact position. He was he had come in that day and was looking for people, the top rope, and he was talking with Christian. And Christian grabbed him and he grabbed me and he's like, he's like, you guys are perfect, you know, get to it. And he's been my main partner five years. So we.

00:38:19:15 - 00:38:20:13
Speaker 1
Started ties.

00:38:21:03 - 00:38:42:18
Speaker 2
You know, from absolutely like, I mean, like we had no mentors, you know, like, yeah, we started from basically like, getting stomped every time. CONAN And I do a big alpine climb, and we're on our way out. I always tell him there was this this five eight at the gym, which is like, so soft, you know, like five, eight at the gym is like a baby climb, you know?

00:38:43:07 - 00:39:01:19
Speaker 2
And we were just getting smoked, just stomped on it. It couldn't do it. It was like our project, you know, at that time and every time, well, now we're doing a long alpine thing. I'm like, when we walk out, I'm like, Man, I call that old orange because it's orange climb. I always look at him and I go, Man, we've come a long way from Old Orange, you know, the five, eight.

00:39:02:09 - 00:39:12:07
Speaker 2
And yeah, like we, we, we took an aria course with anchors and, you know, we did trad together like all that. Pretty much self-taught. So it's been quite a ride.

00:39:13:10 - 00:39:36:18
Speaker 1
That's crazy, man. I, I vibe with your story a lot. I didn't have, like, just one person that I started with, but almost. His name is Josh. And yeah, we just, like, I kind of had a little bit more and I kind of like was his mentor in the beginning. But we definitely shared of most of our climbing experiences together over a course of like five years or so.

00:39:36:18 - 00:39:55:14
Speaker 1
And there's really something special to that. If you can find someone to climb with on a consistent basis, there's like that trust and dealing with something stressful and the communication and the reliability of belay or just how they work and operate. And there's definitely something to be said about that. So it's cool that you had that for sure.

00:39:56:05 - 00:40:16:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We definitely I've had some of my buddies now reach out because, you know, I post stuff on my Instagram and I've had some friends who I've met the gym who want to get into Trad and they always ask like, Oh, how did you get into it and what would you recommend? And I'm like, Well, I would not recommend my way of doing it for sure.

00:40:16:09 - 00:40:40:19
Speaker 2
Like, I don't do it like how I did it. But yeah, I mean, we like basically like YouTube University was, was like our way and like, I just try to get my hands on any books I could like. Climbing Acres by John Long Great resource, any YouTube, any self-rescue like any books I could read I would read and then you know YouTube and then we would go and start small as we could, you know.

00:40:42:00 - 00:40:43:23
Speaker 1
But did you have any close calls?

00:40:44:15 - 00:41:04:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. So I my first trad experience. So one thing they don't they don't you won't find in the YouTube videos is that there is a large discrepancy between gym grades and outdoor grades, especially trad grades. So that's like anybody who climbs outdoors get gets that. But like to me at the time I didn't, I had no concept of that.

00:41:04:04 - 00:41:32:10
Speaker 2
So there's a classic area that's got some some really good not a lot of routes, but really good routes. Like if you guys are ever in like the Ohio TUR area and you happen to be driving down the three freeway Chesapeake Gorge. This there's a57 called ending crack. That's like the first pitches like just so fun, so mellow each gear like better than some four star stuff I've done in Josh like Primo and it's such an esthetic wall.

00:41:32:10 - 00:41:48:10
Speaker 2
And we just decided I had some money. I'd saved up and so I just bought a new double rack and I was like, I'm just going to fucking go for it, you know? Like, let's just go out there. I'm like, So ready, so stoked. So I'm like, It's five, seven, like, how hard could it be? You know, I'm climbing five nine in the gym, Like, it's totally fine.

00:41:48:10 - 00:42:08:09
Speaker 2
Like, that's like two grades below. You know what I can do in the gym? So we should be totally fine. And we get there. Yeah. And so I also had no concept. I didn't run into anything about extending placements either, so I had a nice shiny rack. And my other stupid thing at that time.

00:42:08:09 - 00:42:11:07
Speaker 3
Was that's a lot of stupid things I was doing.

00:42:11:07 - 00:42:14:10
Speaker 4
But like, yeah, we've all, we've all done it. And that's why it's funny.

00:42:14:10 - 00:42:15:16
Speaker 3
That everybody.

00:42:15:16 - 00:42:16:03
Speaker 4
Done it.

00:42:16:11 - 00:42:17:14
Speaker 3
It's weird. Yeah.

00:42:18:10 - 00:42:38:18
Speaker 2
So yeah, this, this pitch is also really long, so it's bolted and I figured, well, it's bolted and it's wrap rings, so it's got to be like, you know, a rope length. If it's got wrap rings, I can wrap from it. Right. You know, like but not thinking that it's long, it's, you know, you need to rope. So luckily, like we had another rope in the car so we were able to, like, fix that.

00:42:38:18 - 00:42:56:02
Speaker 2
But see, I started leading up, but it's a long climb and it eats gear. So the thing was it's like, okay, you know, you go your first 15, 20 feet and then there's a little roof that you got to kind of pull over. And what is the first thing I do? There's a perfect number two placement right underneath the roof.

00:42:56:08 - 00:43:14:03
Speaker 2
So I take that number two out. I stick it as far back as I can under that roof. I just like calm my foot in. So I have both hands and I just clip directly to that number two under the roof. And then that's like the first 20 feet. I got another like I don't know how long. I think it's like 140 foot, 150 foot pitch.

00:43:14:03 - 00:43:28:14
Speaker 2
So, yeah, I pull over the roof, the roof and I automatically to drag just horrific, you know, just like struggling immediately. I'm like yelling down to take it on. I'm like I'm like, what are you doing down there? Like, give me some slack. And he's like, I'm trying just like, by pooling slack on the ground.

00:43:30:03 - 00:43:30:06
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:43:30:15 - 00:43:52:01
Speaker 2
So it's just a, just a disaster. But Yeah. So we I pulled over the roof and then I kept climbing up and it was just such an epic experience. I mean, so fun. It's such a fun time. In fact, that I placed all of my gear, my shiny new double rack, and, like, half my nuts. I'd place within the first 110 feet or 120 feet of the climb.

00:43:52:13 - 00:44:07:21
Speaker 2
So all of a sudden I'm like looking up and I see the anchor, which is like off to the side, but it's like 30 feet up. And I'm like looking down and I'm like, Oh, crap. Like, I don't have any gear left. Like, Oh shit. And so I realized in that moment I'm like, Oh man. And I hear like, Cannon sees it.

00:44:07:21 - 00:44:23:19
Speaker 2
I'm like, struggling. And he's like, he's like, you know, if you're freaked out, come down, dude. And like, you can't hear anything because, you know, we're so high up inside, like, look up at the anchor. And I looked down at him and look back up at the anchor, and I'm like, I'm just going to gut it, dude. I'm going to do it like it's I'm having an experience.

00:44:23:19 - 00:44:39:04
Speaker 2
You know, it looks easy enough. It's going to be okay. I'm going to do it. And so like, like an idiot, like, I'm like fighting the crack because I just drag it just so bad because I've, like, clipped directly to every piece of gear. And I have that, like, number two that's 20 feet off the ground that's just stuck underneath the roof.

00:44:39:17 - 00:44:49:16
Speaker 2
So I'm just like, it's funny, there's these like older guys who are over a root and they must have just thought that like someone was like being murdered or dying or something because I'm just like.

00:44:50:00 - 00:44:50:18
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:44:51:03 - 00:45:13:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, you know, like throwing my sister on this easy. Five, seven. And these old guys must've been, like, looking left, right. Like, who is this guy? Like, what's happening over here? But meanwhile, I'm just having the most epic experience, you know, just this jam and going up, and I made it without incident. I had, like, a there was a tree that I was able to get, like 15, 20 feet, like in between the run out.

00:45:13:18 - 00:45:31:05
Speaker 2
So I was able to tame it a bit. I just threw a sling like one of the Alpine draws. I still had three sling on it, but I hit the anchors and I was hooked. Immediately. I was like, All right, transit. So again, like, I just I loved it. And yeah, it was just it was a whole day, man.

00:45:31:05 - 00:45:50:02
Speaker 2
And but yeah, if I had fallen basically at any point in that climb, I probably would have hit the ground like, I mean, between, like in, on, like pooling slack, you know, because we had no concept of like drag, you know. So if I had fallen on any of the run outs because it's, I mean what makes that climb great in a beginner route is that it's, it's relatively low angle.

00:45:50:02 - 00:46:05:16
Speaker 2
So you don't have to use the crack like you have this great, you know crack for fist jamming. But every five, ten feet or so they're good dishes on the left and right that you can chill out. So it's low angles. So like, yeah, but taking a 20 foot whip on that, probably not good. Yeah, I would have gotten shredded.

00:46:06:12 - 00:46:27:01
Speaker 1
So I mean lessons there is probably too it's like, you know, you could come to it more educated but I mean yeah, who's going to do that. You know there's always going to be someone who's not right. I think the bigger lesson is to do your best to climb well within your grade, like because what is the thing that keeps you the safest, not falling.

00:46:27:20 - 00:46:43:10
Speaker 1
If you don't fall, you're not going to get injured unless you get hit by a rock. So do your best to stay on the wall. And then, you know, if you are a sketchy climber in the beginning, which most of us are, you are going to survive because you're not going to be testing all your stupid placements or bad decisions.

00:46:43:10 - 00:46:54:11
Speaker 1
Totally. Yeah. So that's that's the biggest lesson that I've got from my experiences in the past, too. It's just like the reason why I'm here is because luck and I was climbing where I wasn't falling all the time.

00:46:54:11 - 00:47:21:23
Speaker 4
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, I think we've talked about this before where difficulty is subjective to ability and the arbitrariness of the grading system, like numerically, especially when people go from a gym to the outside, it's, it's, you know, as we we've covered here, the number really doesn't say at all. And you can climb yourself a you can get sandbagged and grading systems and then B, you can climb yourself into some dangerous situations really fast.

00:47:21:23 - 00:47:41:07
Speaker 4
And like, you know, it doesn't matter. I've I've been on, you know, multi pitches where the party behind me super luvvie like we were on this five nine and this this woman behind us she's like a 512 climber, absolute crusher. And you know, she was like kind of like, you know feeling good but doesn't push Trad that much.

00:47:41:07 - 00:48:00:12
Speaker 4
It's like on a59 climb, right? So it's all relative. And if you're not used to being in quite literally a situation where you could be looking at like, you know, maybe yourself or death, you're not going to climb to the best of your ability when that stress is under you unless you're like, you know, some freak like Alex Honnold and your amygdala doesn't work, you know that.

00:48:00:12 - 00:48:23:09
Speaker 4
It's like, I'm sure. But, you know, the chances are that you're that person is pretty, you know, zero to none. Yeah, it definitely remind me. I actually I was climbing this past summer with my girlfriend REI, and we climbed this thin yak peak, and there's this beautiful five nine pitch where you climb this series of wandering flakes and then you pull this crack.

00:48:23:09 - 00:48:43:06
Speaker 4
It's kind of like a roof. You traverse it under clinging, and then you get into this roof. And I did the same thing. I like put this number one in, didn't extend it. It was just like, you know, dumb lapse in judgment. I should have known better. And so like a climb into the roof, like, pinch the hole, get up, like, pull through the roof.

00:48:43:06 - 00:49:13:01
Speaker 4
And then by the time I pull through the roof and step up it, like just gets pulled under the crack from, like, the roof, the like traversing crack, the rope pulls under and snags. And so I'm like, just pulled through the roof, like precariously, like on this edge, you know, And, and I just had this moment of like, I knew exactly what had happened and it was just like, fuck and had to, like, slowly down, climb the cracks, go back down, then pull out the cam, then do the cracks without a cam and then get a camera.

00:49:13:01 - 00:49:30:11
Speaker 4
But it was just this whole ordeal. It was is pretty beautiful is a really good day. But yeah, you just never know. You know, climbing five nine in the gym is one thing, but climbing five nine outside and having to redo the cracks or having to pull rope, drag or having to perform when you're risking injury or death, it's just not the same thing.

00:49:30:11 - 00:49:34:09
Speaker 4
So yeah, and it's all just relative to your ability, right?

00:49:34:09 - 00:49:57:12
Speaker 2
So yeah, like the yeah. And like you guys said, like mentorship too, because, you know, the nice part about that is if you do find a mentor or reach out to somebody who's doing trad, you know, they'll probably have a rack or you'll go with people that have a rack. So you don't, you know, so financially it makes sense like and yeah, that way you're a lot safer too.

00:49:57:12 - 00:50:20:06
Speaker 2
And little things like that, Like what you were saying Max Like there's stuff that we tried climbing is very complex, but tried is like even more so you're adding another layer of complexity on something. It's already really complex and certain things like you just won't encounter certain things unless you actually experience them. Or you are talking to somebody who's had that happen and most of the time they're happy to share it with you.

00:50:20:06 - 00:50:34:21
Speaker 2
You know, I'm sure like after that happened to you, that's like stuck in your mind now where you're like, Man, if I see anybody, you know, on this route or doing something like that, I'm going to be like, Look, this what happened to me? And, you know, I don't know. There's an aspect of like sharing the suffering a bit so that other people don't have to.

00:50:34:21 - 00:50:37:08
Speaker 2
That's, that's nice. And yeah, yeah.

00:50:37:08 - 00:50:59:08
Speaker 4
It's also like, no, your limit play within it, you know, that's a gambling terminology but it is, it is exactly what Kyle was saying, right. It's yeah. Like if, if, if you're taking a big committing route and it's five, nine or 510 a and 510 is like your heart is on site ever and the routes chalky and run out and dangerous and you haven't climbed a lot of routes like that.

00:50:59:14 - 00:51:21:19
Speaker 4
You know it might not be the best idea you know like that's just because you have climbed a ten A does not mean you can climb ten a run out like, you know, PG 13 and it's like your 15th pitch in and you're terrified. Like, that's not the same experience. Even though the arbitrary grading system is the same, it really won't equate to the same thing.

00:51:22:04 - 00:51:29:14
Speaker 4
So and not to deter people from going and having their fun adventures and stuff, obviously. But just yeah, just just think it through before you do it.

00:51:30:17 - 00:51:44:21
Speaker 1
Totally. It changes dramatically depending on what area your area totally in as well. Like, you know, you could be solid on like five turns in a certain area and you can go to another area and get stuck and whipped by five eight. Totally. And like because it's all like it's not technically hard, but you're.

00:51:44:21 - 00:51:46:10
Speaker 2
Like, this is so weird.

00:51:46:10 - 00:52:21:18
Speaker 1
Like, Yeah, what does it want me to do? You're like, the pros bad. Usually it's always the case with easier climbs. It's like the pros bad for every fucking reason. I got the same thing with the safety with Dark Shadows just recently, man. Like there are. There are plenty of pitches with great gear, and there's plenty of great gear, but there are sections of gear where it's just like, and then maybe this is just me not being as experiences I need to be, but I've got nine years of trad climbing experience and there are just sections where the gear is just like, Oh, like you would have to really sit there and think about it,

00:52:22:02 - 00:52:30:19
Speaker 1
or you got to try these like really weird shit, or you just keep climbing and then all of a sudden you're looking down and you're like, Oh, it's 30 feet, you know? And you're just like, Well, here I am again.

00:52:31:08 - 00:52:34:14
Speaker 3
30 feet run out. You know, there are just.

00:52:34:14 - 00:52:37:02
Speaker 1
So many times on that climb where I'm just like, God.

00:52:37:02 - 00:52:41:02
Speaker 3
Damn it, why are you here? You know, it's that song where you see a lot.

00:52:41:02 - 00:52:43:11
Speaker 4
Of times it's like, Hello, Darkness, my.

00:52:43:11 - 00:52:45:21
Speaker 3
Old friend. You know, time slows.

00:52:45:21 - 00:52:50:06
Speaker 4
Down. You're just like, looking down there.

00:52:50:06 - 00:53:11:00
Speaker 2
I'm so glad you brought it to you, because I. It it does depend on the area. And, like, certain areas are, like, so sandbagged, like out here, like when so. CONAN, I did Chesapeake Gorge and then I was on Mountain Project, and I love looking through maps and just dig in for areas like, what are the best climbs in an area I love looking for, for places that I haven't seen before.

00:53:11:10 - 00:53:17:09
Speaker 2
And so for some reason, the first thing that caught my attention was, I'll talk eats out here. I don't know if you guys find it at Talk.

00:53:17:09 - 00:53:22:13
Speaker 1
Eats, but I spent almost all my early years climbing all around talking.

00:53:22:13 - 00:53:44:02
Speaker 2
It's so good, but also like, it's so good. It's such an ominous. It's got a place with such character there. And like, it is steeped in history too. Like if you haven't heard of Torquay, it's like the actually the Yosemite decimal system, like our whole 510, you know, fighting grading system started in Torquay and it got appropriated to be the Yosemite Decimal System, which should really be the talking decimal system.

00:53:44:10 - 00:53:47:12
Speaker 2
So like the grades started there and it's.

00:53:47:12 - 00:53:50:01
Speaker 1
The first five nine ever. Yeah. Is the book.

00:53:50:01 - 00:54:09:16
Speaker 2
I have like I've had it where I have so many funny stories but like I'll, I'll tell this one like we were doing this classic five seven and it was of course sandbag, still one of the best climbs I've ever done. But I get up to this spot called Lunch Ledge, which is this classic area where a bunch of roots kind of, you know, conform to this big lodge area.

00:54:10:03 - 00:54:23:15
Speaker 2
And I get up to lunch ledge and I can't find an anchor. I'm like, Oh, fuck. I'm like, There's this bush here. But I'm like, I pulled off a sling. I'm like Aussies, Bush going to work. Like, I don't know, is it thicker than what was it again? Is it thicker than my leg? I'm like, It's still kind of small.

00:54:23:22 - 00:54:40:18
Speaker 2
I can't find a crack. And like, as I'm like processing all this decision making, I feel this glass like thing on my shoulder and I'm like, What the hell? And I look over and it's a soloist, so it's a guy. And he comes up, he comes up to me in that glass thing that's on my shoulder is a is a fucking handle, a whiskey.

00:54:41:08 - 00:54:59:06
Speaker 2
And he goes, he goes here, he hands it to me and he, he, he looks at me and he says, he says careful like that. And I'm like, Oh crap. Like, is he talking about my anchor? Is he talking about me? I'm trying to process process it all. And then the next thing he he goes, careful, It's Apple flavor like the whiskey.

00:54:59:16 - 00:55:16:00
Speaker 2
And I'm like, Oh, Mike, what the fuck? So I like grabbed it and I took a big swig and I'm like, Thanks, man. And he just he starts soloing off to the left of me and approaches, you know, the room next door. And he didn't have a backpack, nothing. So I still don't know even how he got. I mean, we're talking like a big fifth of, like, apple flavored jack.

00:55:16:00 - 00:55:29:23
Speaker 2
I tell people, I'm like, I'm pretty sure like, he must have had it in his mouth, like, like a pirate, Like, just hand jam in, like, I don't know where he had it. No pack, nothing. And just sold right off some scruffy guy. I actually have a video on my insta like because I was GoPro thing at the time.

00:55:29:23 - 00:55:47:13
Speaker 2
I have like an inside of it. I was like him coming up and being like, Oh, it's apple flavor. I was like, Couldn't believe it. I told CONAN when he got up and then when we were at the we go to this this Mexican restaurant after every climb called La Casita, which is like, Oh, it's so good. If you go to Torquay, it's definitely recommend.

00:55:47:13 - 00:56:07:16
Speaker 2
But yeah, I told him after and I shut he said he didn't believe me. So I showed him the GoPro and he's like, Dude, that's so funny. So it was like just the classic trad experience, like one of the first few times we've been out there and it was just so funny. But that area too, we have a lot of the locals will go there to to LA Casita or to like some of the bars.

00:56:07:16 - 00:56:29:11
Speaker 2
So we'll like talk to people and like it is so common, we're like, we'll climb something moderate, like there's a climb called white bins walkway, which is like a I think it's like seven pitches is one of my first climbs there and a mountain project. It's rated as five four. But Torquay's is a very like it can get really wandering, especially if you're on the big multi pitches.

00:56:29:11 - 00:56:53:14
Speaker 2
It's kind of hard to root find. And the second pitch is this like splitter, like the obvious way to go is this perfect splitter five seven crack. That's super fun but it's five seven and kind of sandbag like kind of scary. And I was talking to some of the guys about that that we were talking to some of the older guys that like a cedar and they were like, well, I was like, well, why is it rated five for?

00:56:53:15 - 00:57:08:04
Speaker 2
Like, what's up with that? If the second pitch is clearly five seven and they're like, Well, well, yeah, dude, it's mostly five four. It's like, yeah, there's a, there's a57 move in there and there's there's a run out, you know, five, six and maybe you have to bus a couple more, five sevens, but like it's 95%, five, four.

00:57:08:04 - 00:57:34:02
Speaker 2
So like it's a54 out and like what, Like, so it's just like the ethic of like some places are just like really classic historic and they kind of have their own ethos about grades and, you know, at that time five nine was the max when those classes were getting put out. So five, seven today might be something a bit harder, you know, and they've just never changed it or, you know, maybe five four is closer to five, seven.

00:57:34:14 - 00:57:51:06
Speaker 2
So stuff like that. Like they don't really talk about stuff like that in the guidebooks. Like if you're just learning trad, just like get a feel for the area if you can, like if there's a Facebook page or a group for trad, Yeah, maybe so Cow climbing, try to ask around and just see what the ethos is like.

00:57:51:06 - 00:58:14:20
Speaker 2
What's is there things sandbag like, you know, kind of what's the deal? Because I've done most of my trad out there and the fortunate part about the kind of learning try to talk is I feel like I'm kind of primed, like for a lot of other areas, everything seems a little soft, like, I don't know, things that talk to me are always a bit fucked up, you know, They're always a little sandbagged, there's always some sketchy this to it.

00:58:15:05 - 00:58:34:11
Speaker 2
And like, like I'll go somewhere. Like not to say that Red Rock soft at all, but like, Red Rocks fare a lot of the time. It's not. There's nothing like at least that I've encountered in my somewhat limited experience at Red Rock. Like I haven't encountered a whole lot of like this is absurdly not like I'm climbing a five, you know, it's generally I could see the argument why it's a58 and I agree.

00:58:34:19 - 00:58:44:22
Speaker 2
But like at Torquay it's you might get on a route and it's like who cares? You know points don't matter. Like it, you know, mostly it's five four but maybe you have some five, seven, five, eight in there too, you know. So yeah.

00:58:45:14 - 00:58:50:11
Speaker 1
Especially like there's so much slab out there too. Like five, nine slab on talk eats areas. Serious business.

00:58:50:21 - 00:58:51:05
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:58:52:09 - 00:58:53:06
Speaker 2
No. Most even with.

00:58:53:06 - 00:59:01:12
Speaker 4
Long term climbing goals and aspirations. Something like specifically what interests you about the sport that you want to do.

00:59:01:12 - 00:59:28:22
Speaker 2
I mean this past year, you know, honestly, like I've completely fallen in love with the Sierra. Like I, we did. I basically I don't really like to push myself grade wise like we I still do, but it's not my main interests. Like my main interest is just like being able to like I love going out like, especially like remote destinations, backpacking, like mixing long strenuous hikes with doing a multi pitch and then hiking out over one or two days or longer.

00:59:30:02 - 00:59:52:23
Speaker 2
That's like my main goal, like long moderate trad is just that's, that's like what I love in the sport. But basically I have this as far as like goals go. I have the there's a Sierra Guide, I think it's a super topo guide of the High Sierra. But I think Chris Mack and I've just been like, there's a little section in the back where you can tick off, you know, by, by grade, like all the different classics and stuff.

00:59:52:23 - 01:00:09:03
Speaker 2
So like if I could live a life where at a certain point I just had everything in that book, like all the classic Sierra Adventurers ticked off, that would be like the Prime. So I'll have to get up to like 12 AA to do that. But it's it'll be a slow, a slow crawl, but I'm heading toward it.

01:00:09:04 - 01:00:10:09
Speaker 3
Nice man.

01:00:10:09 - 01:00:29:06
Speaker 4
That's awesome. Yeah. Know, I'm just always interested in what's motivating someone, and it doesn't. It doesn't have to be something insane or anything. I think, obviously. And with the the age of social media and, you know, climbing media, people always feel you've got to have some, you know, like, I want to go die climbing 13 or something. It's like not not necessary.

01:00:29:06 - 01:00:34:18
Speaker 4
Like that. That's really cool. I'd love to climb in the Sierras for sure. It's it's definitely somewhere. I'd like to go spend some time.

01:00:36:08 - 01:01:12:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, I, I just want to be able to, like, climb any five nine in the Sierra and just, like, could have solid it basically like be good enough to wear any surprise on a route is I'm just able to like fully be present and just enjoy it and not worry you know are we going to have to you know aid a section of it or, you know, repel off or retreat like just good, get good enough physically and have enough travel experience to just like, you know, fully be present, enjoy, enjoy stuff Like there's a big one called the Evolution Traverse the Sierra that's rated as five nine, but you basically have to solo it.

01:01:12:10 - 01:01:32:11
Speaker 2
It's only one section of five nine. But I've heard it's it's a59 down climb. So people say like be pretty proficient, you know, in like the tens because it's so long like you you can't simulate you basically have to solo the whole thing. So yeah I just want to a good enough climber to be able to call myself a Sierra Sierra hard man.

01:01:32:11 - 01:01:32:18
Speaker 2
Yeah.

01:01:33:06 - 01:01:33:15
Speaker 4
No, that's.

01:01:33:15 - 01:01:36:04
Speaker 2
Awesome. Paradise Eagle. But yeah.

01:01:36:09 - 01:01:41:03
Speaker 1
The Sierras are they're beast and they've got some great climbs up there. It's really an awesome place. Yeah.

01:01:41:23 - 01:01:42:16
Speaker 2
That's beautiful.

01:01:43:00 - 01:02:03:06
Speaker 1
Well, cool, man. Um, there's a second part to the story here. You know, we've gotten into kind of how you found climbing. We've gotten into kind of where you're going with climbing. There was an incident that kind of happened pretty, pretty recently after you found climbing. If I'm not correct. What is it? Tell us a little bit about that and and kind of how climbing helped you get through it.

01:02:03:07 - 01:02:28:15
Speaker 2
Sure. Yeah, I know. I'm so I've been climbing for about a year at this point in my career. I was comfortable, like top roping. I had just started to get into trad, um, and I was really starting to fall in love with the sport. I had moved in to a new apartment. It was an apartment I shared with two other gentleman I had met on Craigslist for this particular location.

01:02:29:23 - 01:02:51:17
Speaker 2
One was from Brazil. So he, you know, was visiting from Brazil and he was working at a CI shop that was down the street and the other guy was an accountant. And the second gentleman, the the fourth roommate we had was a German shepherd named Athena, who was very sweet most of the time, but also was a purebred.

01:02:51:17 - 01:03:12:03
Speaker 2
So she was intimidating, you know, and could snap at any moment. And you kind of like the way I describe Athena. I would always have like a bag of treats in my car because I would have to bribe her to go home, like as if I didn't, like, feed her the treats. You she was intimidating and would bark and might even give you a little bit like, you know, he did his best with her.

01:03:12:03 - 01:03:53:23
Speaker 2
But, you know, she's got an inner she's like a bred from police dogs. Um, but I say that because later on in the story it's relevant. But yeah, in that apartment I had a very traumatic scenario happened and, you know, I warn you, the story is it's dark and it doesn't have a happy ending yet. But for the most part, you know, I'm you know, I've learned a lot from the experience and I'm, you know, in a good place now, but I share it because in the hopes of like anybody else who's dealing with trauma, you know, and needs an outlet, you know, be it a climber, whoever climbing like was the only thing in

01:03:53:23 - 01:04:15:18
Speaker 2
this scenario that really helped me get through it. And I'll kind of, you know, explain how that, you know, really helped me. But what happened was, well, I'll tell it like this. So in our apartment there it was a two story apartment. And as a as a short bit of set up on the bottom level, you know, you walk into the apartment and there's a hardwood floor and then there's a kitchen across the way.

01:04:16:05 - 01:04:38:22
Speaker 2
If you look directly left, there's a staircase going up to the second level and then there's four bedrooms at the top. So this story starts where I had I had woken up. So I had heard some yelling, some like sounded to be violent, yelling. But we had had some neighbors who, you know, we're kind of abusive to each other.

01:04:38:22 - 01:04:58:05
Speaker 2
It wasn't super uncommon and it sounded like it was outside the apartment. So woke up and a bit and I heard some things. But, you know, I'm one of these people. I'm a heavy sleeper. And once I am asleep, it's hard to get me out of bed and so I was listening, listening and it kind of trailed off and then it was silent.

01:04:58:05 - 01:05:22:03
Speaker 2
And I go, okay, I'm going to go back to sleep. So then I wake up and I wake up to my other roommate yelling, you know, And the other the one of the thing is that my my roommate that I was talking about earlier had had met a girl that he was dating for three months, beautiful woman. She was an audiologist.

01:05:22:03 - 01:05:43:15
Speaker 2
So had her career together. Very smart, very nice. She'd come over a few times, you know, thought the world of her. She was really chill. But back to my story. I hear yelling. And so at first I am struggling to get up. I hear nothing, I get up, I open the door and at the end of the hallway.

01:05:43:16 - 01:06:09:09
Speaker 2
I see the the German shepherd. Athena, you know, the the violent German shepherd is sitting at the top of the stairs, you know, with her tail between her legs and her ears down and scared. And I had never seen her like that before. So that's my my first thought was, whoa, you know, like, what's going on? So I walked down the hallway and when you get to the top of the hallway and you're looking at the stairs, I can see the front door and the hardwood floor.

01:06:09:20 - 01:06:33:23
Speaker 2
And on the hardwood floor, it looked like somebody had taken a mop with blood on it. And so the entire bottom level of the hardwood floor of our apartment was covered in what I can only describe as like a sea, an ocean of blood in a pattern that looked like it was mopped. And so I'm thinking at that moment, in my mind, the door, the also the front door is open.

01:06:34:10 - 01:06:57:05
Speaker 2
And I'm thinking at that moment in my mind, oh, somebody got cut really bad, you know, like someone must be hurt. So as I'm starting to go down the stairs, like I take literally one step down the stairs and I see police come in, police comes in, fires a Taser at something. So basically like Tasers fired, his partner is looking over her shoulder pistol in my face at the top of the stairs.

01:06:57:05 - 01:07:15:21
Speaker 2
So I'm sitting at the top of the stairs. I'm looking down. I have a gun in my face, and the guy goes, stay the fuck up there, get a room. And so luckily at that point I was like, Oh fuck. I had the presence of mind to grab Athena. So I just grabbed her and I took her back down the hallway to my room and I put her in my bathroom because I was in the master bedroom.

01:07:15:21 - 01:07:30:21
Speaker 2
So I had a bathroom that was in a separate door. So I put Athena away and then I closed my door and I sat on the bed and I hear they're going upstairs, they're clearing the rooms. And then they come to my room and they're like, You know, anybody in there, identify yourself. You know, what they do in their clearing?

01:07:30:21 - 01:07:48:20
Speaker 2
And I'm like, hey, you know, the dog is in the the bathroom and I'm on the bed with my hands up. You know, you guys are totally safe to come in. So they came in, you know, they, they they cleared around. They didn't go in the bathroom and then they left. And so I'm sitting there like, What in the fuck happened?

01:07:48:20 - 01:08:09:19
Speaker 2
Like, what is going on right now? Like, in my mind at that point, I'm thinking, you know, Chad, maybe Chad, you know, my the roommate, I was like, maybe he had like a grow op. It was like there was some secret room. You know, I'm thinking, like, underneath the apartment, even though he lived on, like, a second floor, I'm like, maybe he had some room in the or rating us or something.

01:08:09:19 - 01:08:26:11
Speaker 2
But then I was like, well, what about the blood? Like, what's going on with that? So I was just sitting and then they had a police officer come up the stairs and this guy was like, Why does it ghost? You know, I'm like, terrified. And I'm like, this is like a big old police officer. And he, like, walks over.

01:08:26:11 - 01:08:41:06
Speaker 2
He's like looking in all the rooms, like, all scared he was looking scared and he's like, looks at me and like, doesn't say anything. And I'm like, I'm like, What's up, man? And he's just like, Are you okay? You know, like, And I'm like, Yeah he's like, well, he's like, Do you have anything that I can sit on?

01:08:41:06 - 01:08:55:18
Speaker 2
So I had a rolling chair I gave him, I roll a chair and he's sitting in the hallway and I'm like, I asked him, like, what happened? You know? And he's like, I can't see anything. You know, like, I'm like, Whoa. I just keep asking my mike because I'm trying in my mind to, like, figure out, like, what is going on.

01:08:56:10 - 01:09:18:15
Speaker 2
And he's like, I can't see anything like the brass, like you basically you just have to, like, sit on the bed, like, don't do anything. Don't say anything. So this happened at around midnight that night and I had to sit there and I kept asking, but I wasn't free to go. And I didn't know what had happened, but I'd seen blood and I'm trying to piece everything together.

01:09:18:15 - 01:09:57:15
Speaker 2
And that's where the trauma really started, because ultimately there's some other stuff I'll get to that that happened. But I wasn't released and cleared until around noon the next day. So for 12 hours I was sitting in that room wondering like what had happened and the way I can, the best way that I can think to describe that like feeling that way was like, if you can imagine being in a a metal box with a flame underneath it and it's just white hot and you're just running around the edge of this box for 12 hours, you know, constantly running like my mind just running all over the place, like trying to figure out what's going

01:09:57:15 - 01:10:23:14
Speaker 2
on, knowing that something's wrong, trying to figure out like, I mean, essentially losing my freedom for a period of time, like not being able to go not being able to call anybody, being stuck and not having any freedom. And so his his girlfriend that I was talking about earlier had a dog and we could hear his room was at the very end of the hallway and we could hear the dog whimpering.

01:10:24:00 - 01:10:40:10
Speaker 2
So I asked the police officer, you know, hey, is it cool? Can we give her some food, you know, or something, some water, make sure she's okay because she's whimpering. And he's like, Yeah, that should be cool. So I walked by him open the door, and this is about 3 hours. So happened at midnight. It's about three in the morning now.

01:10:40:21 - 01:10:59:23
Speaker 2
So I go into his room and his room is covered with blood. So spatter all over the walls, sheets soaked through blood all over the floor, and the dog is covered in blood and the dog is like barely breathing. And so I like the first thing. I look at the police officer and I'm like, there's evidence in here.

01:11:00:05 - 01:11:14:04
Speaker 2
And he looks in and he goes, Oh, fuck. And he closes the door. And so I realize at that moment that the guys Who had come up and supposedly cleared the apartment didn't go in that room because the door was closed. So I'm I go back, sit in my room and I'm thinking, well shit, the fucking like, whatever.

01:11:14:04 - 01:11:32:04
Speaker 2
Now I'm like, even don't know what the fuck is going on. And somebody could have been in there, you know, like someone could have rushed me and died in that place. So like, yeah, it was, it was horribly traumatic. I kept asking him, you know, I'm like, look, like, this is pretty heavy for me and I want to know what's going on.

01:11:32:04 - 01:11:40:14
Speaker 2
And his response was he was like, he's like the people who who deal with this stuff, they usually don't get up until like six or seven. And I'm like, We'll fucking get them up.

01:11:40:14 - 01:11:41:03
Speaker 4
Did you?

01:11:41:03 - 01:11:42:08
Speaker 2
I was like, Why were.

01:11:42:08 - 01:11:50:06
Speaker 4
You at any point being told you were detained? Did you feel like you were being potentially accused of something? Did you like the thought of calling a lawyer or something crossed your mind?

01:11:51:03 - 01:12:07:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, I'd ask them because, like, at that point I know, like, like after I saw the bloody room, I'm thinking, oh, did like my roommate snap and beat up his girlfriends. I know his girlfriend was over. So I'm like, did he beat her up? I mean, I'm not thinking that I'm accused of anything, but I like seeing the blood on the floor.

01:12:07:11 - 01:12:26:17
Speaker 2
I'm like, Well, I understand the situation's kind of fucked because they've got to get somebody to, like, clear the crime scene, you know, before they can actually, like, get me through it. So I'm assuming I mean, I asked them, I was like, well, you know, they didn't want me to call or call anybody, talk to anybody. I mean, I had never been in a situation like this before, so they never told me I was being detained or anything.

01:12:26:17 - 01:12:32:01
Speaker 2
But I'm just trying to be as like, you know, play as much ball as I can with them. And you.

01:12:32:01 - 01:12:34:12
Speaker 1
Probably would have been detained if you had tried.

01:12:34:13 - 01:12:35:00
Speaker 2
Right?

01:12:35:03 - 01:12:36:13
Speaker 4
Yeah. It's like, yeah, totally.

01:12:36:19 - 01:12:54:12
Speaker 2
Totally. So. So yeah, it took about the, you know, I at work that day I was a server and so I told them my shift started at noon. So around 1130 shit still wasn't happening. And I'm like, look like, I don't mean to be like this, guys, but I have rights know and I've been here for 12 hours.

01:12:54:12 - 01:13:12:09
Speaker 2
This is like really fucking with me and I have work, you know? So like, I've got to be able to at least call them and let them know. Like, if I'm not free to go, I need to get the ball moving. And she's like, okay. So he went and got the detective came up and, you know, is asking me, you know, interviewing me.

01:13:12:09 - 01:13:26:23
Speaker 2
And, you know, I just he's, he's basically like, you know, you know, do you know anything that happened? And I was like, no. And, you know, he was he was like he kind of looked at me and he was just like, he's like, well, yeah, He's like, I have to inform you that there's been a death. And I'm like, a death.

01:13:26:23 - 01:13:46:00
Speaker 2
Like, what do you mean? You know? And he's like, Well, do you have any questions for me? And I was like, Yeah, like what the fuck happened? You know, I've been asking this for the past 12 hours, like, what happened? And he's like, Yeah, your your roommate was killed and I wasn't really told like, what had fully happened until, like, after.

01:13:46:00 - 01:14:06:12
Speaker 2
But what it ended up happening was so basic. Well, I'll, I'll end part by saying they're like, we don't really know what happened, but you know, you're free to go. We're going to get you out of here. But you have to put on like like booties basically like these, like chill out, contaminate the crime scene, like plastic footing stuff.

01:14:07:15 - 01:14:26:16
Speaker 2
They're like, you should put these on and just get prepared, you know, for like, what you're about to see because it's like it's not pretty. Like, okay, So I'm like, Oh, fuck. So at that point I kind of just like broke down because the stress of like 12 hours, just like all accumulated. This hit me super hard. So I just did like a quick like, you know, kind of broke down for a couple seconds to myself.

01:14:26:16 - 01:14:45:11
Speaker 2
I'm like, okay, you know, he's got to, you know, put the cooler head back on and, keep going. And yeah, So we walked down the hallway, walked down the stairs, and the living room was like, I mean, I don't even know how to describe it, but basically just like the worst crime scene, I mean, literally the worst crime scene you've ever you've probably ever seen.

01:14:45:17 - 01:15:02:16
Speaker 2
And I say that because I'm a fan of like, you know, first 48 and like some of these crime shows and stuff. And like, the only way I could explain that, that what it looked like there was like if you seen the O.J. Simpson documentary, like the crime scene photos of like after the O.J. Simpson spree similar to that.

01:15:02:16 - 01:15:21:23
Speaker 2
But like all the the spots where there there isn't blood, blood everywhere. Blood on the walls, on the couch, all over the place. So, I mean, and just like like you couldn't step on a piece of floor that wasn't soaked full. So, like, you know, I was like, more my thoughts at that time were like, What the fuck?

01:15:22:00 - 01:15:45:05
Speaker 2
Like, what happened? I mean, I asked them to I was like, Did we get robbed? Because I was thinking maybe that would explain this like someone he had something that was bought weed or something. I don't know. People came in, Rob shot somebody, I don't know, but they're like, No, that's not what happened. So I find out later when it up happening was he had had his girlfriend over and they had smoke together.

01:15:45:16 - 01:16:08:07
Speaker 2
So and I you know, I'm not against weed. I mean, I think weed's totally fine. So I don't I don't preface this by saying like, oh, the devil's drug, you know, but like what ended up happening in this particular scenario is that he had gotten her to smoke for her first time and she just lost it. She went into the kitchen, she grabbed the knife and she stabbed him 108 times.

01:16:08:20 - 01:16:27:19
Speaker 2
And and then what ended up happening? I find out later she also stabbed her dog. So she had stabbed her dog and brought her her dog up into his room, put the dog up there, closed the door and went back down. And then I say this, too, because this is all public, like it's all we have a local paper.

01:16:27:19 - 01:16:49:21
Speaker 2
So like all the details I found out about this have been from the paper. And so like when I saw the police officer shoot the Taser, he hit her with the Taser and it wasn't working. So basically she was over him, still stabbing him. And they shot at her with the taser and she didn't respond. So they came in with the baton and broke her arm, like hit her.

01:16:50:01 - 01:17:21:16
Speaker 2
Their arm broke. And I guess at some before that, yeah, she had also stabbed her dog and put it upstairs. So finally getting that information, this whole thing was a tiered system of trauma where it's like I got hit back to back to back to back to back with, like, all new trauma. Each time I would find out something different about this situation and it impact I mean, I'm somebody who's not new to trauma, you know, like I saw my friend get hit by a car when we were longboarding.

01:17:21:16 - 01:17:47:04
Speaker 2
Like, I've seen bones, I've seen a lot of stuff. But like, that was a a whole nother level of trauma. And it impacted me in ways that were subtle, insidious, that would like it's not like breaking a foot where it's something physical and yeah, you have mental trauma, but it's like it's something that's that's happened you and there's something like you have a set date of recovery, you know, like you have a goal.

01:17:47:04 - 01:18:19:12
Speaker 2
You're like, All right, I may have broke my foot, but, you know, my goal is to get better and once I do get better, I'll know it. This is like pure mental trauma. And I didn't really have the tools to work through that. I thought I did. But at the time, I the way I responded to it, I got really, really depressed and I had this fear of like, like the way I say it is like my veneer of safety, my perception of safety was completely ripped away from me.

01:18:20:02 - 01:18:50:05
Speaker 2
So like most people are like, you know, it wouldn't happen to me. Or, you know, they have this like pseudo air of invincibility. And that experience to me was a fresh course and like, no, life is random and bad shit happens like that, you know, for no reason. I mean, there was nothing there's nothing in that situation that I could point to to say, Oh, you know, like, oh yeah, like for instance, like I'm hanging out with the wrong crowd and somebody get shot or something.

01:18:50:05 - 01:19:29:22
Speaker 2
Okay, there's A and B, you know, there's nothing about this situation that had any there was nothing that could have been done and it shouldn't have happened. And so I just like like had to learn how to cope with that trauma and to bring it back to climbing. Climbing was my solace like it was how I was able to recontextualize my experience in my life and like, I'll I'll say it like this, like the first thing to anybody who's really suffering with depression, like, I feel you and I've been there and I just want to let you know it's okay.

01:19:29:23 - 01:19:56:12
Speaker 2
And like it is the worst disease like it is. Depression is so insidious and it's a silent killer. And like, I just I want to say, like, the way I handled that situation was. And if you're struggling with that, you have to, like, bring things down. You have to, like, have goals, you know, and with climbing, to me, it was like I had like a it was for me, it was like the grades or like a climb.

01:19:56:12 - 01:20:14:14
Speaker 2
I would choose somewhere like it talki it's, it's like, oh, the next logical step. Like, I know that this next weekend, like this weekend was finger trip. Next weekend is going to be coffin nail you know it was like it got me back into like getting stoked for life and like rooting myself back in reality, if that makes sense.

01:20:14:14 - 01:20:37:08
Speaker 2
Like not getting lost in the, the, the thoughts, you know, and like, the trauma, the thinking about things like gave me something to like, to like, focus on because it's like in that situation, the trauma and the depression is like always fighting for space in your mind, you know? And you've got to like focus on something, you know, and like give yourself meaning back in your life.

01:20:38:03 - 01:20:58:14
Speaker 2
And so in one in one aspect. Climbing helped me in the first phase to like, you know, focus on a goal again and get stoked for something. And that allowed me like when I was out, you know, I was at talki it's, I had done white bins walkway in like that particular day, like the way that the light hit the valley.

01:20:58:14 - 01:21:34:13
Speaker 2
Like I've never seen something so beautiful and like, it's just one of those days, you have those moments out there, be it in the Sierra or wherever your crag is, where it's like you have like you see something that's just like wows you and like it. It just gave me gratitude to still be alive and, you know, allowed me like, I mean, also with climbing, like being able to like, come back to the moment and like, not get lost in your mind was a huge thing, you know, And ultimately, like, what it also did for me, it evolved into like showing other people, you know, who either want to get into the sport or like

01:21:34:13 - 01:21:54:04
Speaker 2
friends who had never experienced the sport, who might originally not have wanted to get into it. And then talking to me, you know, like I was able to take them and now they're off crushing, you know, And like, it gave me like a way to like, like a meaning and like a way to feel good again. Because I felt part of the trauma of that whole scenario.

01:21:54:04 - 01:22:14:15
Speaker 2
I, you know, and I still struggle bit with it is like, fuck, man, if I had gotten up earlier, would I have been able to help? You know, like when I have been able to save his life or been and it fucks with me. Yeah. Yeah. And it will fuck with you because it's like with me, I'm like, you know, All right, well, you can, you can think Maybe, maybe.

01:22:14:15 - 01:22:47:01
Speaker 2
But like, at the same time, like, maybe not, you know? And you know what would have happened? Like, you know, when I have gotten killed, you know, like he got killed. So it's like what? I have gotten killed. Like what? How does that impact my family? How would they have felt if I had to be the hero? You know, it like it It just I guess what I'm saying is it makes you realize that, like situations like that of pure trauma and PTSD, the horror comes on so quick, so fast, and you don't know, you know, the expression, the fog of war.

01:22:47:01 - 01:23:17:16
Speaker 2
You just don't know what's going on until it's almost done. And like, I really enjoy I mean, bring it back to what I was saying before, like I see people who I bring out climbing in like they are having a good time and they're experiencing like I'm like blowing their minds or like we're out in some beautiful area like there's some connection to me of, like, seeing them, like, so happy and stoked and feeling safe and having a great time and just being alive that like, gives me meaning and like helps with that a bit.

01:23:18:02 - 01:23:43:00
Speaker 2
I don't know, like I talk it out, it, you know, almost part of it. I want to it doesn't make sense, but like it does to me, like, and I guess like what I'm trying to say with it all is that climbing was the perfect vehicle that I needed at that time to process that scenario. And I don't know what I would have done had I not had climbing and I not had the community that climbing afforded me.

01:23:43:00 - 01:24:18:08
Speaker 2
I like don't know what I would have done or how I would have process that. And it's just something that like I'm so thankful for. And yeah, I mean, yeah, I just I know, I know. It's like just a super fucking heavy story and like, yeah, when I say that it doesn't have a happy ending yet. The, the woman is, has been out on bail for five years so she is out on a $500,000 bail and that was another thing that stuck with me because you know, at the time I was working for RTI and I was thinking, but dude, what do I do?

01:24:18:08 - 01:24:35:23
Speaker 2
You know, if she comes in, you know, like, I don't know what to do, you know, like, I'm not, you know, so like, I had to that to process or if I'm out on a trail or like, and you know, Oh she, she had, she was posting. Yeah. I mean I'll say, I'll say it like this to like her.

01:24:35:23 - 01:25:01:08
Speaker 2
Her scenario is so terrifying to me because I mean, she basically like from the articles read, she they took her to the hospital and then she you know, the police were questioning her and she admitted to the whole thing, you know, and just said, here's what I remember later on, went back on it. Or basically, like what's happening now is that the prosecution or the defense is trying to get that testimony thrown out because they talked to her after.

01:25:01:08 - 01:25:22:16
Speaker 2
She had had surgery. So there's some weird thing about how, oh, they're trying to argue, oh, yeah, she was under anesthesia still or whatever, but so she's on some whole defense thing. But she's still out. She's been out on $500,000 bail. And it's it's honestly from from like what I've read and heard and what I've gathered, it sounds like, you know, some money is changing hands.

01:25:22:16 - 01:25:41:15
Speaker 2
You know, like there are people who have done far less who are in jail, you know, So like and you know, the first week she was out, she posted, you know, I'll never forget it. She posted her Instagram. You know, she was like with the dog. She got the dog back and she's like, oh, she's like, oh, what's your next adventure?

01:25:41:18 - 01:25:59:18
Speaker 2
You know, like posting a hot dog in like, I don't know, some some area. And I'm just like, man, like, I can forgive like, such a scary scenario where if you really don't remember a situation like that, like how terrifying to like smoke some weed or whatever and wake up and like, not know what happened, but then like to know what happened and to like post like that.

01:25:59:18 - 01:26:13:11
Speaker 2
Like, what do you think that his parents are? You know, like it's just awful and like, so yeah, it doesn't have a happy ending yet, but I'm hoping for a happy ending but I know it's a super heavy story, but I just want to share.

01:26:13:11 - 01:26:38:15
Speaker 4
I've definitely got a few things here. I mean, first off, obviously, you know, really sorry that happened to. Yeah, obviously such a terrible situation and story and just so much to to process there I was I am a little curious about this because my interpretation of it like for example people have genetic proclivities to having psychotic or drug induced psychosis from marijuana.

01:26:38:15 - 01:27:03:17
Speaker 4
Like that's actually a pretty well understood thing. So from the way you described it and obviously, like I wasn't there experiencing the trauma, but it seems like this is not like a premeditated or second degree murder. This is essentially someone had a mental health psych episode that ended in them, you know, brutally in some kind of episode, killing the person, at least to the best of my understanding.

01:27:03:17 - 01:27:34:03
Speaker 4
That's that's what that sounds like. So, I mean, in a sense, it's almost like everybody's a victim, You know, like, I would agree that it is a little questionable to like, you would think somebody would at least be in a mental health facility or something rather than out on bail. But on some level, like she is a victim, that if on the simplistic version of what I have heard is is like what it is, then on some level she's a victim, you know, which is really bizarre to think about.

01:27:34:03 - 01:27:52:06
Speaker 4
So I'm really not arguing that point. Obviously, the condolences to the other individual was killed, you know. So do you do you view it like that at all? Do you view her as a victim in a sense from like having a psychotic break, or is it hard to perceive something like that? Because obviously it's you've lived through the experience?

01:27:53:06 - 01:28:16:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, I definitely do. Like I was saying before, like I can I can absolutely. Like every time I think about her scenario, like, especially when after at first, like all the news came out when it happened, like, I can't imagine how terrifying that is to, like, have you to be an audiologist, you know, for UCLA and have your whole life ahead of you like doing good things and all of a sudden bored yanks your license like horrifying.

01:28:16:18 - 01:28:36:17
Speaker 2
I mean absolutely terrifying. And on that side of it like people make and like yeah I could definitely see that being like so scary and so awful. The things that I struggle with are that, that the way that she's treated the situation after the fact. Those are the things I struggle with. I don't I've heard I mean, I've read one article, you know, they got a picture of her.

01:28:36:17 - 01:28:50:07
Speaker 2
I mean, you know, if anybody wants to read them, it's all public. But, you know, kind of like smirking at the family, you know, in the courtroom or like stuff like that. I hear that's like that. That bugs me, you know.

01:28:50:13 - 01:28:52:07
Speaker 1
All right. So I'm going to chime in here. I'm gonna chime in.

01:28:52:07 - 01:28:52:13
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:28:54:05 - 01:29:24:08
Speaker 1
First off, your story gave me shivers, dude. Then I'll tell you why. And this is going to get this is going to head in a direction. The whole story to me reeks of some evil fucking shit, and I can't help but lean towards the direction of some satanic like fucked up shit. And so I'm going to go in that direction with a little more literacy.

01:29:24:08 - 01:29:55:05
Speaker 1
But I mean, did you ever feel any sort of evil presence when she was around? Did you see any sort of flicker of personality in her eyes? Did the house feel weird at any time? Like were there areas of energy where you're just like getting a weird feeling? Basically, I'm alluding to, like, were there any precursors to maybe some sort of connection to an evil energy source either with her or at that house?

01:29:55:05 - 01:30:14:09
Speaker 2
You Know, I and like, I get what you're saying too, like I have some buddies, close friends of mine and like they had come come over. One of them had some like Ryan had come over and was hanging out with all of us. He was in town. They were living up in the bay at the time. He had come down just to to like scope the roommates, check out the place.

01:30:14:09 - 01:30:32:13
Speaker 2
You know Prior to that, I lived in some like really like, you know, dingy scenarios, trying to save money, you know, like converted garages that shouldn't have been converted not to dirty as fuck, you know, like just trying to scrape by. So this was actually a really nice place compared to, like where I was and like, had a had a good vibe.

01:30:32:13 - 01:30:55:12
Speaker 2
All the roommates were chill. Like I was happy at the time. And, you know, my roommate who was there who had hung out with us that day after like he called me to like, make sure everything was okay. He was like, Yeah, dude, Like, I didn't feel anything like that. Like, I mean, with her, I had only hung out with her a couple of times, so it was I'd only live there for two months.

01:30:55:20 - 01:31:32:02
Speaker 2
So I only knew everybody in the place for two months. And she, he started dating her a month in. So I had only met her twice the the second time. So, um, well, when, when she would come over, you know, he and her would get intimate. So I would, I would sleep with, with headphones in, but I would kind of avoid when they were together because Yeah, they would, I mean I wouldn't say that they brought out the worst in each other, but there was definitely like a vibe of, I don't know, like I loved hanging out with him and when I was talking to her alone, she seemed fine.

01:31:32:02 - 01:31:50:05
Speaker 2
But the two of them together kind of had a like a sort of a bully kind of feeling to them. And I just chalk that to like, look, you know, whatever. Like he I don't mind that. Like, he's just trying to impress this girl, you know, they're just meeting each other. You know, if he wants to be I want to say Dick, but if he wants to to be a little like, you know, act like he's the boss.

01:31:50:05 - 01:31:59:20
Speaker 2
Whatever. Like, that's cool. I'm fine. But I wouldn't really, like, like to hang out, you know, in that in that scenario. But again, it was only she'd only come over like a couple of times and only actually like an even.

01:32:00:01 - 01:32:06:13
Speaker 1
And even in that situation, it was more his behavior that was unsettling in a way that rather than hers.

01:32:06:13 - 01:32:08:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. Him No, I mean.

01:32:08:15 - 01:32:13:06
Speaker 1
He no, because you were saying that he was like he was the one being bossy. And she.

01:32:13:06 - 01:32:14:07
Speaker 3
Yeah, but her.

01:32:14:11 - 01:32:15:11
Speaker 1
Behavior was coming.

01:32:15:21 - 01:32:17:05
Speaker 2
Back to her to a little. Yeah.

01:32:17:13 - 01:32:43:03
Speaker 1
For sure. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, I guess just like, that's where my mind goes. Like, this kind of stuff just seems like to. To dark. The blood, the walls, all the rooms that dog like. I think that, you know, they talk about how, you know, certain people are more tempted to spiritual realm than others. And sometimes, you know, we use psychedelics or drugs to better access those channels.

01:32:44:15 - 01:33:06:17
Speaker 1
To me, it just seems like and this is just my total biased analysis of the situation that the Yeah, I mean, she was probably predestined, predestined to some sort of psychosis, but she must have also had some sort of either already connected to some sort of dark energy stream or it connected to her in that moment, that night.

01:33:07:04 - 01:33:25:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's so dark and so sadistic that it makes me want to believe that she had already had some sort of relationship, that kind of energy, whether she was aware of it or not. But it definitely seemed like it had a hold on her and kind of took over her that night with the use of marijuana as kind of a pathway.

01:33:26:08 - 01:33:50:21
Speaker 1
So that's my that's like after hearing your entire story, like, that's how I would process that entire situation. And I totally would just be shooken and terrified. And just like you said, the lack of security, that was something that hit pretty hard with me is not feeling safe anymore and just realizing that, you know, someone could come out of the shadows and stab you for a fucking reason, you know, for real.

01:33:51:05 - 01:33:51:13
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:33:52:19 - 01:34:04:16
Speaker 1
My question guess for climbing real quick is you had mentioned how it gave you purpose. Again, with this sense of safety. Did climbing give you a way to control your own safety again? In a.

01:34:04:16 - 01:34:34:22
Speaker 2
Way, yeah. Beautifully said. And like I had a buddy who had done like some psychology work and he had he had made that he had said some some term like edge work or something where, you know, you, you purposely expose yourself to like risk and scenarios to kind of like reprocess danger and trauma. And so yeah, through like tried and through sport, like having that fear, like having that risk of some falls, you know, even in a safe scenario where, yeah, okay, even if I fall in some sport route, I'm not going to die.

01:34:34:22 - 01:34:51:21
Speaker 2
But like being able to it for me at least to give gave me back some form of like control, like being able to sort of like, predispose myself to anxiety, you know, at a drip level that I wanted kind of and yeah, I beautifully said. I think that like that's definitely a part of it.

01:34:51:21 - 01:34:57:10
Speaker 1
That's to hear. Yeah, that's exactly what I kind of thought when I was hearing that. But wow, dude, I mean.

01:34:57:10 - 01:35:15:08
Speaker 4
Well, I think something I think about with the climate community touching on this subject is, is back to that purpose in meeting. So I think a lot of times people want to think about, you know, I want to achieve happiness in life, but happy happiness is this really like transitory, you know, fading emotion that you experience moments of.

01:35:15:08 - 01:35:38:00
Speaker 4
And then it kind of and then it leaves, right? So you're not going to actually achieve like happiness all the time in your life. But if your life has purpose and meaning, then you can kind of bear the suffering and the trauma of reality. And something that I think is so interesting with climbing is it's kind of this ending pursuit to simply just challenge myself and to better myself.

01:35:38:00 - 01:35:53:21
Speaker 4
And then you can create all these kind of metta and, you know, smaller goals within that pursuit that cater to you. You want to go in the Sierras and you want to do that. You know, we all have our own goals, but it but it is that never ending pursuit which also comes with all these caveats up. I love doing it.

01:35:53:21 - 01:36:22:12
Speaker 4
I love the outdoors. It brings you endorphins, exercise, health, wellness, there's all these other great things. But back to that purpose and meaning of chasing this, this pursuit of betterment, that purpose in your life. It gives you something to structure yourself to hold on to, to look forward to and to continuously strive towards. And I think that purpose in life is really what can help people bear suffering and and everybody experiences suffering in their lives.

01:36:22:12 - 01:36:41:19
Speaker 4
Right. And so I think that's something for me that I think about with climbing is at least what's ironic about the ankle situation is climbing gave me my suffering and then with the solution to my suffering, which is like the you know, the cure to the disease was the disease I don't even know. But but in general, I just think about that purpose in meaning as something that's so special.

01:36:41:19 - 01:37:04:06
Speaker 4
And I feel, I guess, unique. It's not unique to climbing. It's unique for me because that's where I found that purpose and meaning through climbing. So but just to touch back on something real quick here where we were kind of talking about maybe, you know, explanations for her behavior and stuff, I just I just would say that, you know, my thought process on it honestly is like Occam's Razor.

01:37:04:06 - 01:37:33:07
Speaker 4
So, you know, it's like if you have multiple explanations for something usually the simplest one is probably the more logical. And for me, the way I think about it is, you know, why would she, why would she tank and? I don't know. I don't know what I don't know. I can't make anything. But from a simplistic like point of view, why would she destroy her entire life, her education and her doctor, stab her own dog, potentially lose her freedom for life?

01:37:33:22 - 01:37:52:05
Speaker 4
You know, like it realistically, the simplest solution to that is like people having severe psychotic episodes are full on drug induced psychosis. They just do totally crazy things, you know, And you can explain that in different ways and however you want by like that's that's just what I think of when I hear that. And, you know, for all I know, you never know.

01:37:52:05 - 01:37:54:01
Speaker 4
It could be something premeditated or anything.

01:37:54:07 - 01:37:58:15
Speaker 1
But I yeah, I mean, I don't think that it was premeditated at all.

01:37:58:15 - 01:38:04:16
Speaker 4
Okay. I thought you were trying to say like, premeditated or something. And I was like, Oh, no, that sounds like that's another accusation. I was like, Whoa.

01:38:05:10 - 01:38:33:13
Speaker 1
No, no, I don't I don't think that she personally had any awareness of one it happening or or anything. My I'm kind of putting the blame or the explanation, a separate entity that took over that Got you. And you know, I agree with the psychosis side of it, where it was a mental break. But to me that doesn't explain the level of darkness and sadistic situation that totally caused.

01:38:33:14 - 01:38:56:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like if it was like, you know, if it was like, oh, you know, she had a psychotic break and she, like, ran outside naked with a knife and like, was screaming and was fearful or something like that. But the level of violence and, the level of blood that he's describing, like it's too dark for me to accept that as just some sort of misfire in the brain.

01:38:56:08 - 01:39:04:19
Speaker 1
The way have to to explain that is that there was another presence there that night that that caused that kind of level of nastiness.

01:39:05:00 - 01:39:06:14
Speaker 4
Yeah, I was just I.

01:39:06:14 - 01:39:07:18
Speaker 1
Wasn't yeah, I wasn't sure what it.

01:39:07:18 - 01:39:23:21
Speaker 4
Means. Just different in the way I would explain that. But I think ultimately we're like we're kind of saying the same thing in like a different rationale and language of that makes sense. So yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, you know, and I don't even know what to say about this. You know, I'm going to be thinking about this in like five days.

01:39:23:21 - 01:39:39:23
Speaker 4
Oh, I did have one here and I'm sorry. Sometimes I like you ever get that where something is just so terrible and dark, Like, there's almost funny things about it. Like, you just have to process something with humor or something. So I don't mean to If I ever laugh at something or anything, it's really not trying to make light of the situation.

01:39:40:07 - 01:39:42:17
Speaker 4
But I am curious, did you smoke.

01:39:42:17 - 01:39:43:17
Speaker 2
Weed before.

01:39:43:19 - 01:39:46:13
Speaker 4
And do you smoke weed now?

01:39:46:13 - 01:39:47:08
Speaker 3
No, no.

01:39:47:17 - 01:39:54:23
Speaker 2
At the time, actually, no, no, I was I was sober and like, thank God, because I would not have been a scenario that I would want to have been hurt, not.

01:39:54:23 - 01:39:58:14
Speaker 3
Even the scenario. Like did you previously occasionally.

01:39:58:14 - 01:40:03:20
Speaker 4
Smoke weed and now are you just, like, mortified of weed or do you view it really as just like.

01:40:03:20 - 01:40:16:07
Speaker 2
No, I'm not mortified at all. Not not only I like. It's no, I mean, you know, I won't confirm or deny on the podcast, you know, if I, if I have taken but you know.

01:40:17:00 - 01:40:18:16
Speaker 3
My way or the other side.

01:40:19:00 - 01:40:22:04
Speaker 2
I know, you know, I might know my way around some real. Okay, guys, because.

01:40:22:12 - 01:40:24:11
Speaker 1
I still say that so I know the consequences.

01:40:24:14 - 01:40:25:04
Speaker 4
His pantry.

01:40:25:14 - 01:40:26:00
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:40:26:03 - 01:40:47:19
Speaker 2
Some you know in the meals every once in a while perhaps. But no, but yeah, like for what you were saying, Max too, is like, I've learned to process that also like, yeah, she's a of everybody's a victim and I just think about like, I mean, honestly dude, like where my thoughts go a lot of the time when I do think back on it, I mean, it happened probably now like three or four years ago.

01:40:48:10 - 01:41:10:05
Speaker 2
But when I do think back on it, I, I used to get really mad, you know, and like, I used to, like, not want to talk about it at all, not even just because of the trauma being brought up, but just like the the fury of like her still being out because it's such an injustice and it's like not only for me, but like when I do think back on it, I think about his parents.

01:41:10:23 - 01:41:32:23
Speaker 2
I think about that a lot because those people I mean, they're like the Goldmans, like like in a in an O.J. Simpson, you know, scenario, like they're not getting justice. And like, I cannot like, it's been actually it's probably been close to like four or four or five years now, four or five years of having your son brutally murdered and like, no justice and like, oh, it's yeah, it's it's awful.

01:41:32:23 - 01:41:54:03
Speaker 2
And like, I look at it like this, too. It's like in terms of like everybody's a victim. Yeah, I agree. But, you know, in a certain extent, there's consequences for your actions. You know, there's people every day who decide that they're going to get super drunk and go drive and take people out. You know, they get a hard time, you know, And the reason for that is because they've done something that has impacted a lot of people and created a lot of victims.

01:41:54:03 - 01:42:12:03
Speaker 2
And like those people who drank, who drink and drive and took out a family of four, you know, in a minivan. It's like they didn't mean to do that. But at the same time, their actions caused a lot of pain to society and to a bunch of individuals. And so, like, you know, I feel I just like I don't get angry anymore.

01:42:12:03 - 01:42:33:11
Speaker 2
Like, I the stuff again, like the after stuff bothers me a bit. But like, I'm to a point now about the whole thing where I don't get mad. I just I get like it bums me out too. I just every time I think back on it, I mean, luckily, like, I've had enough time to, like, process everything and I feel like, you know, I'm in a good scenario with just like, where I'm at in my life.

01:42:33:11 - 01:43:09:08
Speaker 2
I mean, my life is not perfect by any means, but like, definitely, like, could be a lot worse. And I feel like I've definitely mined a lot out of the scenario, like a lot of life lessons, a lot of different perspectives. Like, you know, I definitely haven't let the the situation own me take over me or not let me learn, you know, And like, I've taken a lot of that, you know, and built on it and helped, you know, help to like me further in my life as far as who I am, just as a man and as an individual, so that I'm very grateful for because, dude, scenarios like this, like, I mean, I've,

01:43:09:08 - 01:43:29:21
Speaker 2
I've grown up with friends who've passed away and died for much less and like, or, you know, taken their life or I mean, it's a fucking heavy stuff. Like this is fucking heavy and like, you know, I wouldn't I mean, it's definitely given me a first class look at post-traumatic stress disorder and, like, you know, sometimes I'll. I mean, I definitely I'm not a veteran.

01:43:29:21 - 01:44:02:05
Speaker 2
I've never been to war like, but sometimes I'll see, like, I do enjoy, like, war documentaries and stuff, and, like, I'll see them being interviewed and, like, they'll talk about post-traumatic stress disorder. And I'm like, okay, yeah, I get that. I know what it's like to be, you know, a great like summary of PTSD or one of the symptoms is somebody said, you know, imagine like a car idling at like, you know, a certain like 200 RPMs, like I'm not a car guy, but low like PTSD, idle at like 2000, like my engine is already complete wired.

01:44:02:17 - 01:44:31:00
Speaker 2
The minute I wake up to the minute I go to sleep, I'm just wired all the time. It's like I don't lie. Nervous system is just so you know, ready and like, you know fry it out kind of. And, um, I think that, I mean, after that scenario, I also went back to skydiving I'm not currently jumping but like skydiving also like getting back finishing my license from the, from the surgery was also a big milestone to me and was like a heavy thing.

01:44:31:00 - 01:44:45:06
Speaker 2
And it helped me to deal with the anxiety because like when you're jumping out of planes, especially after you've like, fucked yourself up and broke your foot, like if you can get your ass up and go jump out of a plane, everything else in life is like so mellow, like there's nothing that can get to you after that.

01:44:45:06 - 01:45:17:16
Speaker 2
It's like, you know, Oh, yeah, Somebody cut me off on the road. It's like you're just like, the most Zen, you know, for me, at least, that's that's the impact it had on me. Um, but yeah, I mean, I Yeah, did. It's all, it's all heavy, and it's just, it comes down to, like, maybe I mean, I definitely agree with Kyle, like, I thought for a while, dude, it's so fucking dark, like some weird shit, you know, like, and it'd be like the way I process the whole scenario now is in the end, like, it's kind of like looking back on history where it's like, could this have happened?

01:45:17:16 - 01:45:35:04
Speaker 2
Could that have happened? It's like the area I'm kind of with it is like it doesn't really matter. And I don't say that like, I don't care, but I guess I do care a lot. It's like it doesn't matter in the sense of like, what's the reality? Like, what are the consequences right now? Like, that's kind of what I get back to.

01:45:35:05 - 01:45:54:15
Speaker 2
Like, regardless of who's a victim who isn't, you know, or was was there satanic shit going on with her or not? It's like all very well. Yes. Agree. Maybe, maybe not. But like, you know, at the end of the day, like, we just have to see where where it ends up and where it goes in reality, because, like, you know, I still I pity her a lot.

01:45:54:15 - 01:46:13:15
Speaker 2
I used to be very angry at her. Now I look at her as she is a victim and I feel terrible for her, but I feel much worse for his family. And I just like, don't you know, she needs to have a she needs to see her time. Don't know if it's going to happen, because I hear, like the longer these things get extended out, the worse it is for the prosecution.

01:46:13:21 - 01:46:53:17
Speaker 2
I hope not. I've come to accept either either scenario. You know, I'm not going to let it impact my life. And, you know, I just I feel really fortunate to have had like climbing in the avenues, especially like like I said before, like the community of people, like I've met some of the kindest people and like, you know, just having that support system has been immensely helpful and like, you know, I guess to bring it to like in a positive direction, like with the, like, you know, her with the satanic shit, I feel like there's also just things that come into your life that are just good like that.

01:46:53:17 - 01:47:28:11
Speaker 2
You just need, you know, and, you know, without saying turning to like hokey pokey about it. Like, I feel like climbing just came into my life because it was meant to like, it's just like I, don't know what I would have done without it. And like, if there was something demonic in her that made her do that, that like, there was, there was something else, you know, from a good place that like, brought claiming to me, you know, and like, yeah, there's stuff like that all over and you know, we can just I just have to be thankful for, you know, like what I do have.

01:47:28:11 - 01:48:03:13
Speaker 2
And not to say that, you know, I don't have my moments of depression or thinking back on things and, you know, but like, by and large, I feel like I've done a very good job or as good as I can of like, you know, processing the situation and learning from it. And, um, yeah, I mean, like, I just hope, like if anybody listening like, has depression or is struggling or you were in a scenario that's like so horrific and you've been traumatized or had PTSD, like, you know, there there are ways to handle it.

01:48:03:13 - 01:48:26:06
Speaker 2
And, you know, always to to talk to somebody, you know, like a friend, a family member. But like, try to like besides that, I would say like for me at least, I don't want to make it sound like I'm oversimplifying, but like, do what you can to get stoked again. Like, you've got like if you're sitting, you have PTSD, you hate your life, you're depressed as fuck, you can't get out of bed like I've been there and it's fucked.

01:48:26:06 - 01:48:40:11
Speaker 2
It's so hard and you just you've got to do what you can do to get stoked again. Like find something, be it climbing or like, get something that you want to go and do on the weekend. You know, for me, again, it was torquay's. It's it's like the I'm going to do the next classic at this grade, you know?

01:48:40:14 - 01:48:59:06
Speaker 2
So whatever bullshit I got to deal with in the week, I know that I've got something I'm going to go on Saturday, I'm going to start climbing and not even think about the shit. You know, I can't because you can't when you're climbing, you know, you're just in the moment. Yeah. And just like, try to do what you can to get stoked about life and, you know, like reach out to people.

01:48:59:06 - 01:49:19:03
Speaker 2
And I guess I don't want to make it sound simple because depression and, PTSD is so fucked up. It's such a hard thing to deal with. But you know, yeah, if you listen to the podcast, you, you need somebody to talk to you like reach out to me or I'm sure Kyle or Max, you know, want to climb with somebody, do just anything you got to do, you know, stay around and keep fighting.

01:49:19:11 - 01:49:58:01
Speaker 2
You'll get there.


Introduction
A Skydiving Accident
El Cap's Inspiration
The Death of a Friend