I don’t know about you, but this winter has been insane for us on the west coast. Record snowfall, rainfall, and constant cold weather. While it does seem like we are finally coming to a close of this long winter as temps are warming up, one thing in my mind that has stuck out the most, and that is the debate of climbing on wet rocks.
Wet rocks are a part of nature…but certain kinds of rock become brittle and fragile after considerable saturation. With a season as wet as 2023, this topic sits at the forefront of many climbers minds. I have personally become very interested in the topic and feel that we all, at the very least, need to be aware that it is a real issue. People are getting injured, classic climbing routes are being changed forever, and public land owners are potentially getting more ground to ban us climbers from the areas we love the most.
Todays conversation is with a fellow recreational climber named Mike Tagg. I met Mike via Facebook after finding his post about an app he had developed, that consolidates the information we need to better make a decision on whether or not to climb on wet rocks.
We talk about the ethics behind climbing on wet rocks, dive deep into both sides of the coin, and ultimately realize that we, the Majority, are in control of when we climb….and hope this conversation makes us more aware of the impact that we have on the world around us….and provide a tool for us to use to better make critical decisions… like when to climb……when it might be better to either stay home….or simply climb somewhere else.
Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.
Contact us:
IG: @the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com
Resources:
Mike's Weather App
The Wet Rock Police
I don’t know about you, but this winter has been insane for us on the west coast. Record snowfall, rainfall, and constant cold weather. While it does seem like we are finally coming to a close of this long winter as temps are warming up, one thing in my mind that has stuck out the most, and that is the debate of climbing on wet rocks.
Wet rocks are a part of nature…but certain kinds of rock become brittle and fragile after considerable saturation. With a season as wet as 2023, this topic sits at the forefront of many climbers minds. I have personally become very interested in the topic and feel that we all, at the very least, need to be aware that it is a real issue. People are getting injured, classic climbing routes are being changed forever, and public land owners are potentially getting more ground to ban us climbers from the areas we love the most.
Todays conversation is with a fellow recreational climber named Mike Tagg. I met Mike via Facebook after finding his post about an app he had developed, that consolidates the information we need to better make a decision on whether or not to climb on wet rocks.
We talk about the ethics behind climbing on wet rocks, dive deep into both sides of the coin, and ultimately realize that we, the Majority, are in control of when we climb….and hope this conversation makes us more aware of the impact that we have on the world around us….and provide a tool for us to use to better make critical decisions… like when to climb……when it might be better to either stay home….or simply climb somewhere else.
Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.
Contact us:
IG: @the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com
Resources:
Mike's Weather App
The Wet Rock Police
00:00:00:15 - 00:00:23:22
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone. Kyle here. Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast, where Max and I sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides and recreational climbers alike to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber. If you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:27:20 - 00:00:50:01
Speaker 1
I don't know about you, but this winter has been insane for us on the West Coast. Record snowfall, rainfall and constant cold weather. While it does seem like we are finally coming to a close of this long winter as temps are warming up. One thing in my mind has stuck out the most and that has been the debate of climbing on wet rocks where rocks are part of nature.
00:00:50:10 - 00:01:12:04
Speaker 1
But certain kinds of rocks become brittle and fragile after considerable saturation with a season as wet as 2023. This topic sits at the forefront of many climbers minds. I have personally become very interested in this topic and feel that we all at the very least need to be aware that this is actually a real issue. People are getting injured.
00:01:12:16 - 00:01:39:19
Speaker 1
Classic climbing routes are being changed forever and public land owners are potentially getting more ground to ban US climbers from the areas that we love the most. Today's conversation is with a fellow recreational climber named Mike Tagg. I met Mike via Facebook after finding his post about an app he had developed that consolidates the information we need to better make decisions on whether or not to climb on wet rocks in the first place.
00:01:41:03 - 00:02:25:19
Speaker 1
We talk about the ethics behind climbing on wet rocks. We dive deep into both sides of the coin and ultimately we realize that us, the majority, are in control of when we climb and hope that this conversation makes us more aware of the impact that we have on the world around us and provide a tool for us to use to make better critical decisions like when to climb and when it might be better to stay home or simply just climb somewhere else.
00:02:26:13 - 00:02:35:07
Speaker 1
All right. Are you recording? Good to go. Oh, Matt. Max, we lost you again. Video. It's all good. We'll rocket without your beautiful face today.
00:02:37:08 - 00:02:52:15
Speaker 1
Ask guys. Well, what was that? I said hopefully I'll be missed. I think you'll be missed by us. At least. Well, awesome. Guys, welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast. We're sitting down here with a gentleman named Michael Tag. Michael, welcome to the show.
00:02:53:13 - 00:02:55:10
Speaker 2
Thank you for having me, guys. Super honored to be here.
00:02:55:21 - 00:03:19:18
Speaker 1
Hailey, man. Well, just as a quick topic or sorry, not a quick topic, just as a quick overview of kind of how Michael and I met, you know, out here. I live in Vegas and lately it's been a super, super wet, rainy season. And, you know, climbing on wet sandstone is a super hot topic and kind of a big ethical dilemma for a lot of climbers out here in Red Rock Canyon.
00:03:21:12 - 00:03:39:12
Speaker 1
You know, the rule is that you can't climb on wet rock. Generally. It's 24 hours to 72 hours, depending on whether it's a sunny or shady crag. And, you know, a general rule of thumb is, you know, you look at the ground of the ground sweat, you don't climb the rocks. So that's like the general framework of the structure out here.
00:03:39:18 - 00:04:06:14
Speaker 1
However, this has been probably one of the most record wet and rainy seasons that the West Coast and Vegas included have seen in a long time. And so these rules aren't really applying anymore. And we're starting to see a lot of people getting restless and starting to climb when they probably shouldn't. So, you know, this topic today is all about the ethics of climbing on wet rock, wet sandstone in particular, and I was out climbing with a group of friends about a week ago.
00:04:06:14 - 00:04:32:20
Speaker 1
Well, actually, we went out to climb and ended up not climbing, but because of wet rocks, it was a sunny day. It was kind of sunny the day before. The ground was clearly wet, puddles everywhere. And we as a group decided not to climb. However, we saw lots and lots of other people climbing. I posted a picture, two pictures of people climbing on very popular crags in the Red Rock Canyon, Scenic by Loop or the Scenic Bypass.
00:04:32:20 - 00:05:13:04
Speaker 1
And I posted it in the Vegas Climbers group and it turned into a big ethical debate between the left and the right, which is exactly what I was hoping for. And we really got to see kind of a big spectrum of of conversations on both sides. And so, you know, I posted that and then almost about a week later, maybe even a few days later, I saw a Facebook post from Michael Tagg in the Vegas climbing group promoting an app that he claimed to help us forecast and read the quality of rock depending on certain geo locations and allow us to make these very ethical and hard decisions a little bit easier.
00:05:13:04 - 00:05:29:01
Speaker 1
So that's how I met Michael. I reached out to him because I thought it was an awesome idea. And, you know, that's how that's how we're sitting here today. Yeah. I mean, to get things started here, Michael, I, you know, I will jump into your app towards the end of the show once we've kind of talked about the ethics and everything.
00:05:29:01 - 00:05:38:05
Speaker 1
But why don't you just kind of want round yourself out a little bit, very briefly as a climber, kind of where you found climbing, where you live in now and just kind of who you are?
00:05:39:06 - 00:06:01:01
Speaker 2
Sure. Well, I just want to say again, you know, thank you guys for having me on. I think your description of the issue that you just gave is, you know, very concise, makes my job a lot easier. But there's also a lot more to talk about with the issue. It's not just sandstone and just sedimentary rock. You can have other kinds of rock that are also weakened by water.
00:06:01:12 - 00:06:25:00
Speaker 2
So as you said, the issue's actually really complicated, even though it might seem simple. But just to give it back story on me, I've been climbing for about five years now based out of Southern California. I live in a little area called Thousand Oaks, which is about halfway between Santa Barbara and Los Angeles. My area is I'm blessed to be here because there is so much fantastic climbing.
00:06:25:00 - 00:06:51:00
Speaker 2
But the issue is, particularly in my area in Southern California, a lot of the rock out here is fragile and it is subject to break. It does get weakened by water, particularly. You know, we have a I have a crag near me called Stony Point, which is steeped in climbing history. And if you guys have never heard of Stony Point, I you know, anybody listening, I definitely implore you, look up the history.
00:06:51:10 - 00:07:17:06
Speaker 2
It is a fantastic area, but it is made of sandstone and it's an area that sees a lot of action and climbs have been irreversibly damaged over the years. Certain climbs that used to be classics are now almost completely different. And so, as you said, when whenever there's a rain, if you go on any of the Southern California climbing groups, there's always a discussion going on about when is it safe to climb.
00:07:17:06 - 00:07:36:19
Speaker 2
And, you know, do we have the information as a climbing community to really make those decisions? It's kind of hard. You know, for instance, like, okay, so you look outside and it's rain. Well, how do you define what heavy rain is? You know, like, is it, you know, should I wait two days? Should I wait three days? You know?
00:07:36:19 - 00:07:55:03
Speaker 2
And I feel like we as a community just didn't really have access to that information. So because of that and for other reasons, you know, this was making this app was one of my ways to kind of give back to the community. I started developing a weather app and it kind of just evolved into what it is now.
00:07:56:07 - 00:07:59:03
Speaker 2
And it's been a it's been a fantastic ride and a lot of fun.
00:07:59:13 - 00:08:22:03
Speaker 1
That's awesome. And and so, you know, I will get well, like I said, well dive into the nitty gritty of the app itself here towards the end of the conversation to give people something they're wait for. But I want to know a little bit more about your background, especially in terms of maybe design or coding. Like what what skills have you practiced and what kind of background has given you the ability to create something like this?
00:08:23:02 - 00:08:48:08
Speaker 2
Sure. So I'm actually an aspiring frontend developer. I do a little bit of frontend work on the side. I'm I have a brother in law who codes my background. I mean, it's it's kind of a long story, so I'll give you the short version, but I have a bachelor's in psychology and a master's in business administration. And due to different, you know, unforeseen life events, I took some time off from where I was working.
00:08:48:08 - 00:09:17:02
Speaker 2
I actually left my job and started to work for Ari full time. I was taking care of my my dad, who was ailing at the time and, you know, from that I just picked up coding partly from my MBA. I was doing some linear algebra coding, basically like optimizing shipping routes. And I hated it, absolutely hated it. But what was interesting to me is it's like the one thing that I could just sit for 8 to 10 hours and just do it straight.
00:09:17:02 - 00:09:46:10
Speaker 2
So like, even though I thought I hated the process of programing A again, it's one of the only things that I could actually just sit down and do, and this time would fly by. So from there I started to this is about a year ago. So I've only been on this programing journey for about a year now, but I've been focusing on UI design, the user interface, you know, for the nerds out there, HTML, CSS and JavaScript are the three big languages.
00:09:46:10 - 00:10:11:20
Speaker 2
This program that I made is made in React and Tailwind, which is like a styling language. But basically what the app does is it reaches out to two different databases, one that provides weather based on coordinate, so latitude and longitude, and then another that is a database for different rock types, what they're made out of and a bunch of other information.
00:10:11:20 - 00:10:17:09
Speaker 2
And then I'm integrating that information into the app for users to consume, you know, for the climbing community.
00:10:17:19 - 00:10:41:12
Speaker 1
It's nice. Yeah, I think super cool. Yeah, it's definitely going to be a huge resource and I'd like to to dive into more of kind of the reasons why, you know, something like this and a tool like this is so important. You know, and something you alluded to is, you know, it's not just sandstone, it's all here's a large slew of rock types.
00:10:41:20 - 00:11:04:19
Speaker 1
And so I'd like to kind of, I guess, you know, start there and, you know, I'm not a geologist. And so I think that, you know, I'm not coming from any sort of expertise or anything. But, you know, one thing I found when I was looking through your climbing weather or sorry, rock climbing the weather app, as it's called, is that a lot of the stuff in Red Rock Canyon was labeled as sedimentary rock.
00:11:05:04 - 00:11:31:19
Speaker 1
And I think I could see as an outsider coming to an area and seeing that sedimentary rock label and seen sandstone is kind of this like secondary thing and kind of seeming, you know, a little bit of of questioning. And I'm like, well, isn't it all sandstone? And so, you know, I'm kind of opening up the group discussion here and kind of like using our group consensus and knowledge of kind of describing the different rock types and what our understanding of all this is.
00:11:33:02 - 00:11:53:14
Speaker 2
Sure. So the way I have the app set up in basic geology, there are three main types of rocks that you're going to find out there. One of them is sedimentary, one of them is igneous, and one of them is metamorphic. So igneous rocks, you know, for us in the climbing community, the most popular igneous rock that a lot of us are going to see is going to be granite.
00:11:54:08 - 00:12:17:20
Speaker 2
And what that means is granite. You know, it's basically like rocks formed from cooling magma. So like that lava and that magma that you see that that cools down? Well, you know, depending on conditions, you know, it can turn into granite. Granite is like bulletproof. I mean, that's, you know, the moniker we you know, we in California love the granite of Yosemite and its far superior to all others.
00:12:17:20 - 00:12:48:08
Speaker 2
But no, so but it's it's bulletproof. It's really strong. And the reason that it is called bulletproof is because it's not porous. It's a very dense rock. So it can take a lot of water and it doesn't absorb any water that it takes in which in contrast to sedimentary rock, sedimentary rock is porous. And again, it depends by and large, but many of the sedimentary rocks that we climb on are going to be porous, which means that they have like air pockets in it.
00:12:48:16 - 00:13:08:12
Speaker 2
And what happens is when the water hits those rocks and it absorbs, it changes the structure, it's like a crystalline structure in the sedimentary rock. And it's the way you can think about it as it sort of expands. And when the sedimentary rock expands and we climb on it and we put weight on those rocks, it makes them that water and that rock expanding makes it weaker.
00:13:08:19 - 00:13:29:11
Speaker 2
So that's why when we climb on it after a rain and the rock is soaked, you know, imagine pulling down yarding as hard as we do on these climbs. All of a sudden they just rip right off. So metamorphic rock is kind of in between the two. It's honestly, it's kind of rare to like find it, you know I mean, definitely out in, you know, Red Rock or here in Southern California.
00:13:30:19 - 00:13:56:22
Speaker 2
But again, it's it is a complicated issue. And the thing I want to say to is that just because a rock is igneous or the primary, you know, rock type of an area is igneous doesn't mean that it's not weak or doesn't mean that it can't be weakened by water. So that was an initial challenge when building the app out here in Southern California, we have a crack called Echo Cliffs, which is one of the top sport climbing destinations that's in proximity to Los Angeles.
00:13:57:20 - 00:14:20:20
Speaker 2
And it's made of a rock type called Breccia, which is igneous. But it's like a it's an igneous rock that is also like held together by a like a kind of a cement. It's hard to explain, but like, it's kind of held together by a sort of sediment which can be weakened by water. And so, you know, again, I'm just sort of an amateur geologist.
00:14:20:20 - 00:14:40:12
Speaker 2
I'm not the foremost expert. This is kind of like my armchair expert explanation for a complex topic. But so if you're a geologist out there, I'm sorry if I'm butchering the topic, but but no, I mean, by and large, like the simple version and concise version is that it's not all as simple as just sedimentary or just sandstone or just igneous.
00:14:40:23 - 00:15:02:01
Speaker 2
It's a little more nuanced. So some of the design that I wanted to incorporate in the app kind of reflects that. And I wanted the users to open up the app and use it. I guess I should say I explicitly didn't want to hold the user's hand. I wanted to give the user a fun way to kind of play around and explore on the app.
00:15:02:17 - 00:15:19:12
Speaker 2
And I figure, you know, if I can just capture them for however many seconds at least the way that the app is structured, being one page, it gets it. It gets the issue in their mind. You know, it's like because I think a big issue in this topic is just ignorance of the fact that it's even a problem.
00:15:20:00 - 00:15:27:12
Speaker 2
And so if there's something fun that people can use, if if nothing else, if they just walk away, like being exposed to the issue, that's a win for me.
00:15:27:13 - 00:15:41:17
Speaker 3
Well, I was just thinking like, you know, as someone who's grown up here on the West Coast, all of the climate here is predominately granite for the most part. And so this isn't really something that I've ever had to think of before. And so, you know, I was perusing around your app here and I thought it was really cool feature.
00:15:41:22 - 00:16:01:14
Speaker 3
If I click on The Rock, it's taking me to external links to kind of educate the user on the rock type and stuff. So I thought that was a really cool feature of that, of how it's kind of interactive with the person who's in it. So in my ignorance here, when we say that, you know, obviously so the rock is porous, it's taking up this water, it's expanding and it's weaker.
00:16:02:03 - 00:16:24:23
Speaker 3
How like, obviously there's not going to be a concrete number, pun intended, but how much weaker is weaker? And is this more so a climb where there's a whole bunch of crimes, you're at risk of breaking off these smaller, more delicate features? Or is it like, you know, like you should just stay away from any climb if it was like just bomber massive jugs the whole way?
00:16:25:17 - 00:16:30:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, maybe just, you know, for someone who has no experience with this, those kind of questions totally.
00:16:30:11 - 00:16:55:01
Speaker 2
No. And it's again, it's very nuanced and it has a lot to do with the rock type of a certain area. My my take on it if we'll all address first what you were saying, you know, when is long enough, you know, and that that was actually an issue when I was doing the app that I thought was going to be easy to solve, which ended up being a lot more abstract and kind of difficult to solve.
00:16:55:10 - 00:17:14:04
Speaker 2
And the only reason that I was able to kind of come up with a solution is based off my experience climbing for the past five years in this area, throughout the years have, you know, when it does rain and, you know, because that's the thing about southern California, you know, when we do get rain, all of us are climbing out here, you know, so much that when it rains, we want to get back out.
00:17:14:06 - 00:17:28:17
Speaker 2
You know, it's I mean, we're chomping at the bit to go. I was just at the gym, you know, a couple of days ago listening and, you know, two partners got together and met. And one of them said, like, how you holding up in this in this weather that we got going on? And the other one was like, oh, you know, not great.
00:17:28:17 - 00:17:55:04
Speaker 2
You know, I got the shakes kind of I'm trying to get back out, you know, So it's just kind of a funny, funny thing over here. But I mean, we're we're raring to get back out. I mean, we all love climbing. And I think that's a rule of thumb is well, and Kyle alluded to it earlier, if you are not sure and you've done all your research that you can and you go to a climbing area first, just scope the ground.
00:17:55:04 - 00:18:11:08
Speaker 2
Is it wet? You know, that's a dead giveaway. Is it wet at the base of your climb? If so, wait another couple of days. You know, odds are if it's just a little bit wet, maybe one or two days, you have to wait and it's all good, but also scrape the ground about two inches and just see if that's wet.
00:18:12:08 - 00:18:31:14
Speaker 2
And if that's wet, you know, maybe wait like one same thing, one, two days. It's better to air on the side of being cautious because, you know, you might, you know, it's let's suppose the ground's dry on top. You kick the two inches of soil and it's just a little bit wet. You know, maybe you climb it, you know, three times with your buddies and nothing breaks off.
00:18:31:14 - 00:18:54:10
Speaker 2
It doesn't mean that the rock is any inherently weaker. It just might be that, you know, you're you're either not heavy enough or you don't have quite enough force on that hold to break it. So I would say just, you know, be on the side of caution, you know, and honestly, like after a rain and it doesn't rain for, you know, five, six days and you go and it's dry, you know, perfect gone climate.
00:18:54:10 - 00:18:59:15
Speaker 2
But if you do break a hold that's permanent, it's hard to undo.
00:18:59:22 - 00:19:22:02
Speaker 1
This this rule of you know, I think there's two things here. So one is awareness right. Like you alluded to, it's we need to make sure that people at the very minimum are aware that wet rock climbing is an issue. So I'm just want to state that in general, I think that if anybody gets anything out of this podcast, it's that at a very basic level, do your research, think about it.
00:19:22:02 - 00:19:43:23
Speaker 1
Wet rocks are dangerous. You can break the hold, you can change the roots. You know, that is an issue that people need to be aware of. Second, and the hardest thing to really solve here and it's funny, I think that, you know, the issue that we're having in the community is how long do we wait? And a funny like the thing that you were trying to implement into the app is how long do we wait?
00:19:43:23 - 00:20:04:22
Speaker 1
And it's like the same problem is the hardest question to solve is we don't really know. And that is the issue that this community is, is kind of, you know, trying to solve and struggling with right now. And the general rule to follow on a very, very basic level is what you just talked about. Look at the ground is it wet scrape it, Is it wet?
00:20:05:05 - 00:20:28:04
Speaker 1
And I think that for the most basic level of understanding, that rule does work. I'd say it airs on the side of extreme caution. And, you know, in you know, I'm going to allude to this Facebook group here, but as we start to come up with these ethical problems and use some of these comments as an example to defend certain points from other people's perspective.
00:20:28:12 - 00:20:56:14
Speaker 1
And so this particular comment is actually going to try to argue against the wet ground ethics here. So I'm going to you know, some person one person just said here, I personally feel that 48 hours drive time for shady crags and 24 hours drive time for sunny crags is a good rule of thumb scratching at the ground just feels to me like I'm looking for a reason not to climb.
00:20:57:02 - 00:21:16:19
Speaker 1
So that's like one of the things that people argued is like, you know, some people feel like scratching the ground is literally just trying not to not to climb in general. All right, here we go. So this is a long winded comment, but I think it's important for this topic. So this is public information. So this gentleman's name is Jason Clardy.
00:21:17:14 - 00:21:41:00
Speaker 1
He said. So I was born and raised here in Las Vegas, been hiking and climbing in Red rocks since I was five years old, climbing up Iraq or whatever. While I partially agree with not climbing wet rock, the rule was always don't climb on saturated stone. I'm sorry, but the rule of today of if the ground is wet you can't climb is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
00:21:41:00 - 00:22:00:22
Speaker 1
Who gives a shit If the ground has a little moisture, take a gallon five gallon bucket and throw it on your garage or your front door. How many of the five gallons is on the wall versus on the ground? 99% of the precipitation ends up on the ground because the ground has gravity. Just because there is moisture on the ground doesn't mean the rock is saturated.
00:22:01:21 - 00:22:16:05
Speaker 1
If you walk up to the base of a crack and there's literally water weeping out of the cracks, it's clearly running water running down the face of the rock then, yes, they offered. But if you have the wind blowing, it was raining for a couple of hours and you see a puddle on the approach to sunny and steep, that's completely overhanging.
00:22:17:12 - 00:22:38:03
Speaker 1
Probably fine. Uh, if there's a puddle 100 feet away from the base, that means you can't climb. Ridiculous. Absurd. To think that equates to the rock is saturated. So basically, this guy is getting up to the fact that this rule is a bit too blanketed. And I think that I agree. And I think that, as you know, us climbers, we're we're a bit cerebral.
00:22:38:03 - 00:23:00:02
Speaker 1
I'd say we're intelligent as a community for the most part. And I think that having a blanket rule like that is is really hard for us to digest. And I think we're also as a group, a bit rebellious. And so to have these rules imposed on us and to have these very kind of I don't know what's the word I'm looking for is just this very blanket term of like if the ground is wet, don't climb.
00:23:00:02 - 00:23:15:07
Speaker 1
There's not enough thought that goes into that kind of assessment of choosing whether I want to climb or not. And so that, you know, that's the antithesis to kind of what we were talking about. What do you guys think about his comment and what do you guys think about, you know, the life, the left and the right of this this particular issue?
00:23:15:23 - 00:23:35:20
Speaker 3
I do think it's really interesting and I'm probably not the guy to answer it. So, you know, I'll let you go with this, Mike. But, you know, I was wondering the nuance of the situation makes sense, right? You could have a wall in the sun getting baked in the sun, but the ground could be in the shade. And from recent precipitation, the ground could be wet.
00:23:36:01 - 00:23:49:20
Speaker 3
So obviously, it kind of is like this arbitrary distinction where you could contradict like you could make an assessment hypothetically. So I'm wondering, is there a way to actually look at the wall and assess that? Yeah, that's that's my question for you.
00:23:50:08 - 00:24:10:00
Speaker 2
Sure. Yeah. I mean, in my experience, a big thing, too, when you're climbing in these areas, you do kind of get a tactile sensation of the wall when you get there. So it is not just like how wet. I mean, just looking at the ground and seeing how what it is is just your first dead giveaway as to generally an indicator that the wall has been hit pretty hard.
00:24:10:22 - 00:24:30:07
Speaker 2
But, you know, for instance, at Stony Point, when you're climbing there, you can kind of tell it. So it's almost hard to explain, like when you do touch the stone and it is it is wet, you know, to the experienced person there, you can get an idea for if it's wet, if you should be climbing or if you shouldn't, to address some of the comments that Kyle brought up earlier.
00:24:30:07 - 00:24:50:06
Speaker 2
I've had myself some interesting comments for feedback from people commenting on the app. You know, lucky for me, you know, very positive. I've had some very nice things, said one interesting comment that I want to bring up to add to that. It's a very short comment and the guy said, if you want to climb, go, climb. And that was his attitude.
00:24:50:10 - 00:25:10:05
Speaker 2
And it really struck me because it was like what he was really saying was, I don't care about this issue. And it doesn't doesn't bother me either way. And if I'm going to damage the climb, so be it. You know, it's just it's like y it's almost like they were saying, why impact my freedom? You know, why are you telling me what to do?
00:25:11:10 - 00:25:36:16
Speaker 2
And I tried to comment and, you know, be as nice as I could to just let them know, like, look, the science is pretty sound. I mean, well, while researching this and building this app, I did read the abstract of a few research studies and kind of dived into them a little bit. And there are there is hard research out there that discusses, you know, exactly how weak certain rock types get underwater, you know, when they're exposed to a certain amount of water.
00:25:37:14 - 00:25:56:08
Speaker 2
So it's not just this ethereal, abstract topic. I mean, it is based in science and the science is out there. So one of the things I want to do moving forward with the app, too, is try to implement a way to kind of link like a more information so that, you know, if you did want to nerd out and, you know, dive into these research this boring stuff like you have the option to.
00:25:57:20 - 00:26:22:01
Speaker 2
But yeah, I mean, it definitely underscores a problem in the community apart from the ignorance of the issue, like what you said, Kyle, there there is a contingency of people who just don't care. It's, I mean, and they're very flagrant about, you know, about that. And it sucks because ultimately, like, they will all they will they could go and damage a climb forever and the whole community suffers.
00:26:22:01 - 00:26:48:01
Speaker 2
So my thought on that is, look, we all love the sport and the sport is soulful for us, like it does a lot for us. And these walls are a scarce resource and there's something for everybody to be enjoyed. So I'll say it like this in my experience and the way I wrote the algorithm for determining determining the days of wet rock left rarely after a rain.
00:26:48:01 - 00:27:08:19
Speaker 2
If it has been dry for seven days, you are pretty well in the clear as far as like damaging a rock. I mean, as far as my research is concerned, that's seven days, guys, You know, I mean, on the one hand you have I can wait seven days to not climb and potentially damage this, you know, resource for the community.
00:27:09:04 - 00:27:28:00
Speaker 2
Or I can just say screw it and go climbing and not care. It's like, you know, this issue. Okay. So the other way I look at it is there are different ways that you can give back to this community. Let's say one of them is, you know, giving money to the access fund. Right? That's something that you actually have to get up and do.
00:27:28:01 - 00:27:53:22
Speaker 2
You have to take your resources and put them into something good? This is different to where this is something that you don't do. Like, you don't have to do this. So ultimately, what my argument for the community is just show respects to the rock, you know, to the community, to the people who, you know, your friends and the other people who share the love of the sport like you do.
00:27:53:22 - 00:28:10:01
Speaker 2
And, you know, ultimately the worst, worst case scenario, just wait it seven days and, you know, if it's raining off and on, you know, that could be your way to contribute. Just don't make a decision that is going to impact, you know, the the walls that we all climb on forever.
00:28:11:02 - 00:28:36:02
Speaker 1
I think there's a couple of caveats here. I think, one, I'd like to, you know, paint a picture of maybe the person who, you know, I'm going to use Red Rocks, an example, because that's where I live. And I think it's a big touristic destination for people across the country. So, you know, you've got groups of people that have traveled and taken time off of work and have booked out, you know, the vacation for their spring to come out to Red Rock Canyon.
00:28:36:11 - 00:29:04:06
Speaker 1
And they're in a dilemma. They're in their you know, the society and the climbing community is saying don't climb. They're looking around and they're seeing other people climb and it's sunny out. It rained kind of yesterday. They didn't really know what their weather was for the last two weeks, even though it was pouring rain for two weeks. And I could see, you know, in their shoes, I could see the judgment call being really hard because you are going to, you know, what are you going to do?
00:29:04:06 - 00:29:23:21
Speaker 1
You drove down here for 8 hours, 12 hours to get here. And now you can't climb like I could see a huge part of myself being like, Well, fuck that, I'm going to climb anyway. Like, what the fuck? And so I get it just to kind of see that out in the open. I understand, you know, the controversy and why people are climbing in general.
00:29:24:05 - 00:29:51:21
Speaker 1
I think people who live here and might be climbing, it's a bit of a harder pill to swallow. It's like you live here, just go home and climb tomorrow. People on larger vacations is a it's a bit more understanding to me. But on the other side of the coin here, I'd like to talk about the the you know, other than just holds breaking off like what are the actual repercussions for holds breaking off you know what is that actually happening other than you actually destroying the root?
00:29:52:04 - 00:30:13:08
Speaker 1
You know for me it's if you're climbing a classic route, you know, a59 and you break off a critical hold, maybe that roots no longer five, nine, and now this classic climb that people are learning to climb on is now a five, ten or, you know, five, nine plus. And so you have literally change the route forever because you couldn't wait.
00:30:13:23 - 00:30:36:09
Speaker 1
And, you know, there is there's a lesson there. You know, you change the route to a hold could break off and you could fucking deck. That actually happened out here on Johnny Vegas. A guide broke a hold and fell to the ground. I don't know the whole story. If anybody listening is hold heard the story and would like to share the information, please reach out to us on Instagram.
00:30:36:09 - 00:30:55:04
Speaker 1
I'd love to hear the story, but yeah, a guide broke a hold and fell and decked because they were climbing on wet rock. And I've also heard stories and this is all just this year, a couple classic, I think V7 or V8 boulder problems people were climbing on broke a critical crux hold. And now I think it's like an fire.
00:30:55:04 - 00:31:09:19
Speaker 1
It's like someone has to climb it now without that crux hold. And so like there's two sides of the coin. Someone could take the stance and be like, Well, that's the progression. Everything's changing now. It's, you know, a new thing. And then you've got the other side of the coin. It's just like, was it necessary in the first place?
00:31:10:01 - 00:31:30:15
Speaker 1
Did we have to climb on wet rock and did we have to change the route just because we couldn't not climb so there's two sides there. And then the third thing I'd like to say about Red Rock Canyon in general, and this is something that's brought up on the Facebook group as well, is that there is not just Red Rock Canyon in this area to climb.
00:31:30:21 - 00:31:50:19
Speaker 1
If you drove 8 hours to come out here, you can drive another hour and a half to go to some of the best vertical limestone climbing in the country and climb without having to worry about it at all. And so there are other options. It's not like, you know, you came here and there is literally nothing else to climb.
00:31:50:19 - 00:32:01:06
Speaker 1
There are other options. You could redirect your focus and you could respect this issue a little bit more. So that's like my blanket term in terms of everything. I'm thinking about that totally.
00:32:01:06 - 00:32:31:20
Speaker 2
No, And and I'll add to that too, as far as like consequences of climbing on wet rock that you might not anticipate. And, you know, I share this because, you know, I think that the story, you know, will kind of illuminate the issue a bit more. But early in my climbing career, I took a friend who I had just started a job waiting or, you know, serving, and I was just starting to meet people.
00:32:32:03 - 00:32:57:01
Speaker 2
And it had rained for a bit, but it was perfect conditions. This is over at Stony Point, so perfect conditions. I brought my friend, who I had just met, you know, from work, and I noticed that the ground was kind of wet and like what you were saying, you know, as far as like, there are situations, it's not easy sometimes like people, you know, they come here to try or they're traveling and all of a sudden they spend all this money and, oh, do I climb?
00:32:57:01 - 00:33:16:22
Speaker 2
Do I not Will? Now I'm I've invited somebody who's never climbed before for their first climbing experience. And I don't want to be that guy to say, Oh, well, yeah, let's just go back. Whatever, you know. You know what I mean? And so that makes it a bit more complicated. But I, you know, took him to a really popular area and had him, you know, set the anchor from above.
00:33:16:22 - 00:33:43:11
Speaker 2
I was top roping with him and blowing in. And there was this hold on this wall that was this little under clinging, bizarre, under cling feature. It's maybe like, you know, half pads under cling with like a hollow pocket behind it. So, you know, him being new, he did a absurdly high left step. And as he was rocking over onto his left foot, he was kicking the wall, you know, for balance.
00:33:43:11 - 00:34:11:12
Speaker 2
And I'm sitting here looking at that underlying feature like, oh, there's no way he's going to kick that under clean, you know, like, what are the odds? And all of a sudden kick one, kick two, and then kick three. He disconnected perfectly with that under clean top right off and went straight to the ground. And I just immediately I feel horrible, you know, it was something where I wasn't even thinking about it at the time, but it just all clicked to me in that moment where I was like, I saw the ground was wet.
00:34:11:13 - 00:34:29:05
Speaker 2
You know, I did know better at that time. Not as much as I know now, but I had like heard in the ether. I like kind of heard on different Facebook groups, you know, something. And so, yeah, and that whole popped off, went to the ground. And I immediately I was like, Yeah, yeah, why don't we come down?
00:34:29:05 - 00:34:51:18
Speaker 2
And we just left. I was like, Yeah, I don't think it's good conditions out here today. It's not safe, you know? But the reason I share that is because it it's not just the, you know, the breaking of the, the holes in the wall. It kind of sticks in your mind, you know, like, I can't go to that wall now at Stony Point and not think about my decisions that day.
00:34:51:18 - 00:35:14:22
Speaker 2
You know, when I look at that that route or when I climb it, it's like that's what's on my mind when I'm there. And I feel like if you have any sort of baseline consciousness and you love the sport, that will happen to you too. So it's something that you don't think about, you know, in the in the moment when you're planning the climb, it's so easy to get wrapped up in planning and doing and executing.
00:35:15:06 - 00:35:44:20
Speaker 2
But when it does happen, it's something that I don't hear people talk about. I think there is an aspect of like shame, like you don't want to be the guy who's like, Oh, there's no reason for you to go, Yeah, I'm the idiot that broke the hold on such and such, you know? So I just want to share that because, you know, for other people too who might have that, that feeling about certain climbs, like, you know, it's we're humans and we make mistakes, but, you know, it's something that definitely doesn't feel good and something that you want to avoid and something to consider.
00:35:44:20 - 00:36:13:13
Speaker 2
You know, when you are planning and trying to make those decisions about when to climb after a rain. And yeah, we just need to to be educated and just do our best and mistakes will be made. But as far as like, you know, if you know, if that's the progression, if breaking a hold means, oh, a new route, you know, if it has to happen, why don't we just kick that can down the road as far as possible there's no reason to go, Oh, well, it's going to happen anyway, so why doesn't it happen today?
00:36:13:22 - 00:36:31:19
Speaker 2
You know, I don't I don't agree with that. So just I would say to anybody listening, just keep that in mind, too, like it does stick with you if you do, you know, break a hold, especially at a climb or a crag with so much history. And if climbing is a sport you love, you know, it'll it'll stick with you.
00:36:32:04 - 00:36:49:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. Man, I appreciate you sharing that and just being open with that. And, you know, as for myself, I think that, you know, if if this if this kind of situation was presented to me, you know, several years ago, I would have been the person that would have climbed on the wet rock. No doubt in my mind I would have been that guy.
00:36:49:20 - 00:37:09:01
Speaker 1
And it just it just was who I was, you know? And now, you know, I've got a much broader understanding of the community I've been climbing for nine years. You know, we started this podcast. We're starting to become a voice for the climbing majority. And it's just there's a lot more at stake. There's a lot more that I understand and it just means more to me.
00:37:09:01 - 00:37:28:20
Speaker 1
And so, you know, these decisions start to weigh a little bit more on the conscious and stuff. And you know, something we had talked to a little bit about is like, you know, besides the ground being wet like Max had asked, are there signs that the rock is, quote unquote saturated like the guy had mentioned? And at least here in Red Rock, that's definitely the case.
00:37:28:20 - 00:37:50:08
Speaker 1
You can see like wet streaks where the water is like run down the rock. And it's I guess like if I'm being super nit picky, it is a bit nuanced. Like you could look at it and just tell yourself it's dry. But if you actually take the time to look at the rock and like look for reasons not to climb, you know, look for reasons to be more critical, you can find them.
00:37:50:15 - 00:38:04:01
Speaker 1
You can go up to the base of a root and you can kind of like pull on some of the rock features. And, you know, we were at the base of this climb and we were pulling on little features and shit was just popping off left and right, just boom, boom, exploding. And obviously this was not on the route.
00:38:04:01 - 00:38:19:05
Speaker 1
We were at the base on random stuff, didn't have anything to do with the rock, but I mean, as clear as day, it's just like, you know, the rock is exploding, there's wet streaks everywhere. There's puddles on the ground, you know, like to tell yourself it's a it's okay to climb is just I think is ludicrous at that point.
00:38:19:18 - 00:38:46:13
Speaker 1
Um, another, another topic that I think you know, you almost alluded to was just kind of like the climbing community in general has a large impact on public lands, you know, and the AC and the access fund are all there to protect these areas, not for the people who own the land, but for us, for the people who enjoy the land.
00:38:46:23 - 00:39:08:12
Speaker 1
We don't even own it. We don't pay to be there. We don't. All we do is go to enjoy it. And it's not our land, you know, like technically, you know, everything's owned by somebody at this point, whether it's the Bureau of Land Management or National Parks, it's been regulated so that we can enjoy it. And it's our job to have the lowest impact on these areas as possible.
00:39:09:15 - 00:39:31:18
Speaker 1
And that, you know, I think the biggest issue that came into the to the scene with the climbing community first was waste, human waste, swag, bags, shit, people pain and shitting on the crags Like, I mean, the fact that that was even an issue to begin with is mind blowing to me. And so, like, this kind of destruction of rock is starting to kind of become along those same lines.
00:39:32:01 - 00:39:53:04
Speaker 1
And there's a, there's a guy by the name of Brian Friesen, and he posted another comment on this, this post that I made that I'd like to read. He is he was on the SNC board, which is the Southern Nevada climbing coalition, I believe. I've seen that. Right. And so he does have a bit of expertise here and he kind of starts to talk about this topic a little bit.
00:39:53:04 - 00:40:14:09
Speaker 1
So bear with me as I as I read through this. He said, For me, the issue is considerably nuanced. There are many factors I look to, such as how much precipitation fell in conjunction with the temperature, sun and wind in the following days. Also, some sandstone is thickly varnished and has a few face holds that could break, while others are extremely soft and judgy.
00:40:15:12 - 00:40:35:10
Speaker 1
It is a bad idea to currently climb at the black corridor. Yes, but sunny Crags will most likely dry out in the wind, in the sun cliffs that are overhanging don't see significant rain, so it shouldn't affect it too much. I was on the SNCC board for years and work to educate people about climbing after the rain. We provided general guidelines, but none are hard and fast rules.
00:40:35:19 - 00:40:49:06
Speaker 1
I have seen this issue become toxically hyperbolic due to people ignoring these guidelines completely or taking them way too far. So there's a bit of left and right there. You know, there's darkness on both sides, which is interesting. Yeah.
00:40:49:06 - 00:40:49:20
Speaker 3
I appreciate the new.
00:40:49:20 - 00:41:16:14
Speaker 1
He continues here right so there's continuing here He says my philosophy as a local is not that I won't climb after the rain, but that I will think carefully about the factors that I've mentioned above. I will certainly at least wait 24 to 42 hours. In most cases, I'll avoid highly trafficked areas and classics if the conditions are even questionable, I'll search for areas that I'm less likely to break holds or visit cliffs that need some cleaning up.
00:41:16:14 - 00:41:37:07
Speaker 1
Anyway, that's an interesting point. I wish climbers had applied a similar level of consideration not only to wet rocks but to the myriad of other access and conservation issues. I understand and accept that many will not due to a variety of reasons, I do my best to do what I think is right and provide my perspective when appropriate.
00:41:37:07 - 00:42:07:08
Speaker 1
In the end, if we do not regulate ourselves as a community, there is precedent for land managers. There's there's precedent that land managers will, without the level of nuance, we can as individuals, a little bit of a misstep there. But it sounds like the issue I was trying to allude to is that if we do not regularly regulate ourselves as a community, there's precedents for the land managers, BLM, national parks, private landowners to take this into consideration as a reason to shut the place down from climbing.
00:42:07:15 - 00:42:32:05
Speaker 1
I mean, we already as climbers are so heavily trafficked in these areas, putting bolts up bolts are questionable where human waste is an issue. And now, like if this becomes more of an issue to and the land managers are starting to realize that, hey, these climbers are actually destroying these rocks because they're climbing on them when they're wet, there's more precedent for these places to be shut down in general because of our lack of thoughtfulness as he as he talked about.
00:42:32:05 - 00:42:36:09
Speaker 1
So I just thought that was a super well-written comment and added a lot to the conversation.
00:42:36:09 - 00:42:56:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. I'm wondering here, Mike, just a quick question is something we were talking about earlier with your personal story of like breaking a hold and stuff. Have you considered putting an area in your app where you can actually report like broken holds or let's say maybe you've climbed a classic 20 times and you show up and you notice one of the holds are broken.
00:42:56:05 - 00:43:13:21
Speaker 3
It's not even like, you know, an admission of guilt or anything, just an avenue for someone to actually report like, hey, this climb was five nine and this pivotal bull like, Crimp is broken. And I know it was there because I've climbed it X amount of times and now this climbs like much more like a ten B or ten C or, you know, whatever.
00:43:13:21 - 00:43:29:21
Speaker 3
So maybe A to prevent injuries or people who are maybe newer to climbing, climbing or an easier classic from getting into a bad place in the future. And then also just giving an avenue for people who do know this to to be out report that something's happened to a climb totally.
00:43:29:21 - 00:43:53:01
Speaker 2
No, I think that's a super good idea. I'd love to see it. Something. Yeah, definitely I'd love to have and you know in the app currently, like a lot of that I do find on you know, bigger apps like Mountain Project of course, any time I'm going to a certain area I'll go into, the techs are going to the comments and just read, you know, like with Stony Point, for instance, there's a vibrant community out there that's always commenting.
00:43:53:01 - 00:44:21:09
Speaker 2
You know, if a if a climb is different or if the grade has been inflated, you know, from a whole breaking off, they're usually pretty good about reporting that there. But definitely something I would I would love to get into my app currently like my expertise is in like user interface design and also like querying data. And let me know if this gets in the weeds as far as like jargon goes because programing just gets boring so fast and I'm totally aware of that.
00:44:21:09 - 00:44:51:07
Speaker 2
But The, you know, easy simplified version of it is just like reaching out to a data source, grabbing that data source and then cutting it up and putting it display ably so that people can access that data from those data sources. So eventually, yeah, I mean, like having an area where maybe like, you know, a user can submit a comment and then have a date assigned to it if, if they believe that a hold is broken and whatnot.
00:44:51:07 - 00:44:52:14
Speaker 2
I think that's a really good idea.
00:44:53:01 - 00:45:01:10
Speaker 1
Do you do you see this particular technology being something that you could integrate into Mountain Project?
00:45:01:10 - 00:45:21:05
Speaker 2
No, I would love it. Yeah. If anybody for Mountain Project is listening, I if you want to contact me, I would love that. I'd love to get in there and start tinkering with things if I could. Just as a side note. But yeah, no, I would love it. Currently I know for Stony Point and also for Red Rock, there are a few sources of information mine.
00:45:21:05 - 00:45:43:03
Speaker 2
So one of them is White Rock. Police shout out to Grant Mercer, a brilliant programmer. He has. Yeah, what Rivals.com has Stony Point and Rock, which is a great resource. Climbing Weather.com, also great also all free. So I look at mine as just something. It's another tool in the kit. I figure the more information out there the better.
00:45:44:04 - 00:46:08:05
Speaker 2
And you know, my goal from the beginning was, you know, one, just to have a fun experience that can kind of illuminate the issue, but also give the user some control, you know, if they if they want to access a remote area that's not just sort of like a list of climbing areas, then they can do that. So, you know, in the app I program like a map, a feature to it.
00:46:08:05 - 00:46:18:02
Speaker 2
So that you can basically click on the map and everywhere you click has coordinates that then automatically feed in, you know, to the, the areas.
00:46:18:21 - 00:46:20:06
Speaker 1
So that way for you.
00:46:20:22 - 00:46:21:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. Oh cool.
00:46:21:22 - 00:46:25:12
Speaker 1
Right on via Wall Street I added Wall Street Yeah Yeah.
00:46:25:13 - 00:46:34:01
Speaker 2
Currently it's all local. It's called local storage. So basically like I can't see anything that anybody that anybody adds. It's all like stored you know for you so it's.
00:46:34:01 - 00:46:34:17
Speaker 1
Kind of for.
00:46:34:17 - 00:46:39:10
Speaker 2
You. Interesting. So yeah, so I'm not finding anybody.
00:46:39:10 - 00:46:45:09
Speaker 1
Just at what point do you see it open source so that if someone adds an area, it uploads for everybody that comes to the page?
00:46:46:13 - 00:47:07:11
Speaker 2
I would love to do that. And one of the things I'm working on now is cleaning up parts of the code base. So what I want to do is change the license on it so that people can collaborate. So if you happen to be a climber who's also a software engineer and you like how the codes are written, you know you like what it's doing, pretty soon I want to make it able so that you're able to come in and, you know, tinker with it.
00:47:08:14 - 00:47:34:19
Speaker 2
I currently there's there's two ends to like two big ends to programing. There's the front end. So the design end and then there's the back end, which is dealing with like storage of information and retrieval. It's something that I'm learning currently, but currently, like most of my focus is in front end and just user interface design, querying data, bringing it back, but probably within, I hope within like you know, six months ish, I'm looking at back end right now building some projects.
00:47:34:19 - 00:47:58:04
Speaker 2
So this is like my big app I'm doing to like tinker with and experiment and kind of like over time I'll add more features like as I learn new things. This is kind of my, my, my, my canvas to paint, you know, I guess my, my program. So but I plan on keeping it free always. So it's always going to be a free resource anytime anybody wants to play around.
00:47:58:04 - 00:48:05:16
Speaker 2
Tinker, if you've ever wondered about what your crag and what your local area is made out of and you want to find out more information, I got it for you.
00:48:06:05 - 00:48:31:17
Speaker 1
I think the cool thing about your app is that, you know, I think the one thing that's really hard for people to swallow here in the community is that, you know, small most of the resources out there that are a source of that's what I'm looking for, any sort of source of authority. It's that they're saying when you can and cannot climb, it's it's a it's a hard you can you can't.
00:48:32:02 - 00:48:54:23
Speaker 1
And I think what's cool about your app is that you're not taking a stance at all. You're not telling people, hey, you can't climb because X, Y, Z, or you can't climb because X, Y, Z, You're just creating a database and a way for people to digest the general information with some easy to understand warnings of, certain things.
00:48:55:06 - 00:49:21:08
Speaker 1
But in the end, you're leaving it up to the consumer to decide whether or not it's safe to climb. And I think that that, you know, upholds the spirit of the climbing community in general. You know, climbing is a personal thing. It's what we choose to do. It's not really an organized thing if you're climbing outside. And so in the end, it is on us to make our own decisions on when or when to do or not to climb or what climbs to do, what routes to do.
00:49:21:16 - 00:49:35:20
Speaker 1
But it's important for us all know, like we talked about in the beginning of this podcast, to know for one, that this is an issue and to have the resources to make an educated decision. And hopefully we can set our egos aside and do the right thing with the proper tools.
00:49:37:00 - 00:50:03:00
Speaker 2
Totally, You know, beautifully said. And that's the highest of praise for me. So, I mean, thank you. That's exactly like what I set out to do from this in the beginning, because, I mean, you know, looking at the the Facebook groups in the comments, things get really heated really fast with this. And so, yeah, I think that it's it's counterintuitive to like, tell somebody like, no, don't do this or you can't do this.
00:50:03:00 - 00:50:25:02
Speaker 2
I think it just creates like a visceral reaction in people to, like, struggle against it. Exactly what you said. We're as a climbing community, we're adventurers. You know, we to make our own decisions, you know, like we enjoy doing this. And especially if somebody is in any way implying that our decision making is flawed or we're doing the wrong thing, there can be a visceral reaction to go the exact opposite way.
00:50:25:11 - 00:50:50:19
Speaker 2
And so in the spirit of the app, you know that I made, I just I didn't want to, like, tell people not to. I just wanted to get the information out there. Number one, that it's an issue. But number two, like an estimate, like a rough I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, the suggestion of when to climb and when when not to climb is it's an algorithm written by a human being.
00:50:50:19 - 00:51:13:03
Speaker 2
You know, it's it's at the end of the day, it's based on my experience and the research that I found. So I just wanted to have a resource to give people the information, to make the decisions themselves, and if nothing else, just to be educated that there is an issue in general. So if either one of those two is met, then I'm just I'm very pleased.
00:51:15:01 - 00:51:35:18
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I personally agree and share with that college perspective where have an aversion to authority. And I think people feel they kind of have an entitlement or a right to experience the outdoors. You know, when someone says, oh, you can't climb here, you can't go outside or you can't go in the forest, it's like the initial response is both, you know, fuck you.
00:51:36:14 - 00:52:00:03
Speaker 3
But, you know, in this, in this kind of thought process with climbing, obviously it's like this is a community and what you are essentially doing is jeopardizing other people's potential experiences on these, you know, these magnificent like pieces of rock that, you know, you probably already gotten to experience yourself. So yeah, it is a really interesting conversation and definitely opened my eyes to it.
00:52:00:05 - 00:52:38:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that another thing here that one of these people brought up and I won't read the comment but it it's a it's an interesting perspective is that I think this alludes specifically to sport roots. But if someone put the time in to make that route their own money, their own time, their own dollars to make that route the way they wanted to make it with the stances and the holds and the bolts, you know, And if you go and fuck that up and break a hold and make, you know, that stance of clipping harder, I think that's pretty fucked up.
00:52:38:23 - 00:52:58:12
Speaker 1
Like if I, you know, I try to put myself in the person's shoes of someone who set that route. I come back to it and I look at it and there's a hold busted. And now the clip stance isn't really good. And so, you know, you as the person who set that route now to everybody else who comes to this climb that didn't really realize that a hold broke is always going to say, well, that clip sucks.
00:52:58:12 - 00:53:19:03
Speaker 1
You know, like, why is that clip so bad? And now the person who set that route is going to have this just unnecessary energy that's always, you know, been put at him because the route that he made is no longer the same. And so the comment that he wrote is just like, if you're an accountant, what, you want someone coming into your office and fucking up all your numbers.
00:53:19:11 - 00:53:45:10
Speaker 1
If you're a mechanic, would you want someone coming into your office and just throwing all your tools around? It's like, obviously no. The answer is no, you know, and I think that it's really easy for us to to forget that. Especially, you know, I see this in sport climbing start climbing is a bit different. But when it comes to sport climbing, we are directly benefiting off of the work and the money of other people that did not get paid to do it.
00:53:45:10 - 00:54:11:07
Speaker 1
You do not get paid as a route developer. It's not a thing yet and to my understanding, it's not a thing. You are not getting paid to develop routes. And so, you know, at the very minimum the cost of your bolts is covered. I'd say that's like the most you're going to get. And so to come to a place that's not your route, not your area, you're not even having a second thought for respect for the person who's set up these routes.
00:54:11:14 - 00:54:33:16
Speaker 1
And you're just looking at the wall. Your ego's like, I want to fucking climb, fuck everybody else, I'm going to do it anyway. It's just you're missing a lot. That's you're just missing a lot that's going on. And and part of that is the fact that someone built that route that you're enjoying and choosing to disrespect. And so it's just another thing to think about when when you're really thinking about this issue.
00:54:34:10 - 00:54:50:22
Speaker 3
Yeah. I think the only caveat here is the only caveat that I can think of here is of course, is like if it's super dry and nice and sunny out and like you break a hold by cranking on a hold like no fault of your own. It's just something that happens, like naturally, like, of course that happens. I think in climbing that's a totally different thing.
00:54:51:02 - 00:55:22:07
Speaker 3
It's like we're trying to avoid unnecessary, you know, defacing of a route or something, which is just like this totally preventable problem where you're now affecting like everybody else's potential, you know, experience with that piece of rock for future generations. And so, like, ultimately it's just, you know, other people should, you know, have ideally the right to have the same experiences that you've been afforded that weren't kind of intentionally sabotaged because you didn't have more patience.
00:55:22:07 - 00:55:30:16
Speaker 3
Right? Like that's just a preventable mistake that. We as a community, if we just raise some awareness and think about it a little more, we just don't have to have that happening.
00:55:30:18 - 00:55:58:05
Speaker 2
Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. And the there is always the issue, too, of, you know, if you if it has rained and you see people climbing during a rain or, you know, shortly after, you know, what do you do like what's the best way to, you know, educate those people or do you approach those people? Do you tell them in the moment, you know, you know, a public shaming, you know, sort of the best way to handle that?
00:55:58:05 - 00:56:18:16
Speaker 1
It's unfortunate. Debatable to that would be it's a great question exactly where I wanted this conversation to go. And I think that approaching people like that is bad. I think that if you walk up to somebody that's climbing on wet sandstone and you say, Hey, you probably shouldn't do that, it is not going to be well-received. I don't care who you are, I think it's going to be received poorly.
00:56:19:12 - 00:56:19:17
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:56:19:23 - 00:56:41:20
Speaker 1
So I personally think that's a bad approach. I think it's not going to be received well. You're going to make the issue worse. Maybe they'll think about it like a week later and feel bad. But for the next 72 hours, you're going to be the dick that fucking is just being the rock police. Now, I think this brings up an amazing topic is whose job is it?
00:56:42:05 - 00:57:05:08
Speaker 1
And in the end, I think the answer is it's all of our job to self-regulate and make the right decision. However, if we all make the wrong fucking decision all the time, someone's going to have to step in and be the wet rock police and you know who that's going to be? The fucking cops or the park rangers or the BLM officers or, you know.
00:57:05:08 - 00:57:36:01
Speaker 1
And so now we're getting into the state of this very weird dystopian communistic climbing era where we have people, authority figures established People's National Park, BLM come around and cite people, people for climbing on wet rocks. And I don't know about you guys, but I definitely do not want that kind of ecosystem to exist, ever. I think that's super wrong and I think that it just is not where we want this to go.
00:57:36:09 - 00:57:47:05
Speaker 1
But I think we're where I'm going here is that if we don't self-regulate and we don't have these conversations, that is a potential possibility.
00:57:48:21 - 00:58:09:09
Speaker 2
Totally. No. Yeah. And I am kind of a hybrid. I like the way I approach it. I've only done it a couple of times where I'll see people at a crag, be it, you know, for instance, like my girlfriend and I were at Pinnacles yesterday the first time I checked out that place, totally blown away. As a side note, conditions are perfect.
00:58:09:09 - 00:58:31:05
Speaker 2
Anybody listening who's never been at Pinnacles go immediately like it is fantastic out there. Like amazing. Lots of climbing very like known to be across the area right. I say that with a bit of reservation because like I grew up on real cross and like pinnacles is not like anywhere near the charts that I that came up climbing on.
00:58:31:05 - 00:58:57:02
Speaker 2
So it's like, yeah, it's cheesy, but it's not like, you know, around here cheesy. But they've apart from just fragile rock, they also have Raptor closures, which means basically like the certain climbing areas are closed at different times of the year. You know, for nesting condors too, because they're an endangered species. So it's a similar issue to the wet rock where there are closures in effect.
00:58:57:02 - 00:59:16:23
Speaker 2
And if we don't respect that, they'll shut down the areas or you know, there'll be rangers to police it. And I think there are ways where like I had an experience at Pinnacles where there are people going to climb and like I see that and I'll go up to them just to talk, just to be like, Hey, what's up?
00:59:16:23 - 00:59:32:20
Speaker 2
You know, like, I just love seeing other climbers, you know, and just like talking about routes I've never climb there. So, you know, in this particular instance, I was just, you know, mid-conversation very positive. It's just like, hey, you know, I was like, are you like, I've heard there's a there's a raptor closure here. You know, like, do you know anything more about that?
00:59:33:06 - 00:59:50:14
Speaker 2
And in that particular instance, it was like, Oh yeah, no, the Raptor closure is in a different area. It's not even in this area. And I'm like, Oh, perfect. You know, my mistake. I didn't know. But I think there's a way, you know, I've done it at Stoney to where it's like you go up, you talk to people, you're friendly, you don't come at them with an attitude of like, don't do this.
00:59:50:14 - 01:00:04:08
Speaker 2
You can't climb. You know, it might be what you want to say. Just like, hey, just to let you know, you know, like, I get it. You're with your buddies, like you're whoever it may, maybe it's your first time out from the gym. Like most of the time, that's what it is. And it's just ignorance. Like, people just don't know it's an issue.
01:00:04:13 - 01:00:20:20
Speaker 2
It's like, hey, just to let you know, like, there is a sort of a controversy with, like, wet rock climbing on it. I just want to let you guys know just to, like, bring it up. But, you know, enjoy your day Like it's not I'm not going to call the police, you know what I mean? Like, I just it's I just want to let you know, like, that's it.
01:00:20:20 - 01:00:45:16
Speaker 2
And that's the time. People are like, totally chill. You know? It's like they don't even it's not even an issue. It's really like in my experience, like the energy that you come that people with and like, you know, I definitely don't recommend everybody to do that. And people are not nice all the time. And like I'll say it like this with Stony Point, you know, like, you know, pardon my French, but like there's a lot of old heads out there because Stony Point is so historic that are not as kind as I am.
01:00:45:16 - 01:00:56:07
Speaker 2
And if you are caught climbing after a rain, they might beat your ass, you know, just like straight up like that, too. They'll go around and they will beat your ass or call someone who will, you know. So like a different somewhere.
01:00:56:14 - 01:00:59:21
Speaker 1
Someone waiting for you at your car when you get back with a bat. Oh, yeah, dude.
01:01:01:04 - 01:01:19:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. Or just straight up corner. Are you corner. Are you on a boulder and be like you want to try to fucking send that one more time? You know, like I've heard stories of crazy shit out there, man. I'm like, Wow, yeah, dude, it happens. So that's a little a little extra sight. Not that it would happen to anybody, but, like, keep it in the back of your mind, especially at these historical places where there's a lot of history.
01:01:19:10 - 01:01:37:20
Speaker 2
Like, Yeah, there's some old heads you who get in your face, like, but, but yeah, like, I don't know, like I feel like as opposed to not saying anything or like there's a different, you know, approach of take a picture, post it, you know, and say, oh, these, these Japanese over here climb in. And I'm not saying that's a bad approach.
01:01:37:20 - 01:01:57:07
Speaker 2
I think that that's actually kind of a necessary approach. But the challenge I have is that a lot of the time people just won't see it. And then it kind of like it kind of inflames times. Others on the on the chat rooms and stuff and on on Facebook. And I don't I think it's a good tool, but not like the best tool.
01:01:57:07 - 01:02:18:01
Speaker 2
Like the other thing I'll say I see a lot out there, like of situations where I'll go and talk to certain climbers or people who have no education or experience on anchors. Like I've seen the wildest anchor setups you could possibly imagine out there, like Wild, like I'm expecting these people to fall and die like one one thing fails in their system.
01:02:18:01 - 01:02:35:12
Speaker 2
They're on the ground, they're dead, you know? And so it's like you don't go up and scream at those people, like, What are you doing, you idiot? Although you could. It's sort of like, hey, you know, talk to them, be like, hey, about other stuff. And then like, you know, can you talk about your anchor and like, do you feel good about this?
01:02:35:12 - 01:02:51:00
Speaker 2
And the time? It's like, Oh, I just didn't know any better or I figured this would work. And it's like, just want to let you know there's a better way, you know, maybe an aria. Cause like, maybe like there's different avenues just, just so you know, it's available and then it comes off as not like I'm telling you to do this.
01:02:51:00 - 01:03:17:10
Speaker 2
It's almost like they discover it themselves and they're like, Oh, I'll keep that in the back of my mind. And then it's they take ownership of the issue. And I think that is the key, you know, to to wet rock to a lot of the issues we face in the climbing community is like finding a way to get the climber knowledgeable and to take ownership Like it's my issue, you know, like take on that that mantle of like it's my responsibility to like, Yeah, and it's hard.
01:03:17:10 - 01:03:18:11
Speaker 2
It's not easy. Yeah.
01:03:18:11 - 01:03:42:15
Speaker 1
I think that you, you, you bring up an approach that we've talked about before and I think that at first I didn't kind of correlate the two together because I think that like safety and risk of your own life is like a really big topic. And for me, without a doubt, if someone is blatantly like hanging on the thread of, of safety with, like you said, with a dangerous anchor, it's my duty to go say something.
01:03:42:15 - 01:03:59:08
Speaker 1
And obviously there's a way to approach somebody and be like, Hey, man, like this isn't safe. Let's let's help you out a little bit. You know, like, maybe you should take a course. Just like you said, it's your duty to keep someone safe, because what's the worst that's going to happen is they're going to die right next to you, and then you're going to live with that forever because you didn't fucking say something.
01:03:59:16 - 01:04:15:04
Speaker 1
Now, with Wet Rock, it's a little bit more nuanced because like, the chance of someone dying, the risk isn't that much. It's more of this ethical question of whether it's right or wrong. There's no real clean distinction between like, you know, if you look at the bad anchor, it's not like, Oh yeah, it's good, but I think it's wrong.
01:04:15:04 - 01:04:40:11
Speaker 1
It's like, No, that's going to fucking break and you're going to die. It's like black and white. You know, there's like a very clear distinction between the two. And so that's why I think this topic is so, so hard. But yeah, I think that, you know, it's very circumstantial. I think if it's a if it's a private crag and you show up and these people are climbing and you kind of get the vibe that they're not from the area, like a polite conversation, if you choose to leave and be like, Hey man, like, I don't think this is a smart, cool.
01:04:40:18 - 01:04:59:16
Speaker 1
Totally. I think that's a great way to go. And I think that the funny thing was, is, you know, we're climbing and we were going to go out and climb in Red Rock and the place is busy, you know, it's like the one sunny day you get in the week and everybody's there. And so you've got people like sitting in the in the parking lot just like waiting around, you know, like asking everybody that goes by, Hey, you're climbing.
01:04:59:16 - 01:05:19:22
Speaker 1
Like, where are you climbing? You know, you get further in the canyon, you've got people walking back and be like, Dude, Wall Street's wet or, you know, dude, fucking this wall is wet. They're leavin. So you're watching all these people leaving and you're watching people climbing. It's like this social experiment of, like everybody's opinions as you walk by, everyone's kind of bouncing ideas off each other.
01:05:20:06 - 01:05:36:10
Speaker 1
And it's, it's true because some people choose to climb and some people chose to walk away that day. And it's just it's, you know, everyone's going to end up doing what they want to do in the end. But it was cool to see that everyone was kind of like, there is this air of like, I don't know what I should do, you know?
01:05:36:10 - 01:05:54:09
Speaker 1
And some people choose to go left and some people chose to go right? Yeah. I mean, um, for this particular topic, I think I personally can't think of anything on the, on the ethics side of it that we've missed. Um, how about you guys?
01:05:55:16 - 01:06:19:12
Speaker 2
No, I just like on my mind, I was thinking not related to climbing, but my, my dad always used to tell me. I mean, I was such an energetic kid, and I, you know, I always kind of struggle with school. I was okay, but I got by. But anyway, he would. He would always his thing he would say is it's going to be there, you know, in this scenario would be the rocks aren't going anywhere or, you know, whatever it may be like.
01:06:19:12 - 01:06:38:03
Speaker 2
That was just saying it's not going anywhere. It'll be there next weekend. And my thing with this, this issue is like, I want to be able to tell my kids the same thing. I don't want to have to worry about, you know, if they're crushers and their climbers, you know, and being able I want to be able to tell them, look, it's going to be there.
01:06:38:03 - 01:06:59:03
Speaker 2
And unfortunately, with this issue with with Wet Rock that's growing, I mean, the sport is growing. And there there isn't an easy way to educate people from day one. It's not a topic that gets brought up in top roping courses or how to tie in, you know, which maybe it should be, but I want to be able to tell them it's not going anywhere.
01:06:59:09 - 01:07:24:23
Speaker 2
And I think all of us do, you know. So like I mean, at the very least, like, you know, just do try to try to do the research, you know, and just educate yourself and whatever decision you make, you know, it's it has it may or may not have consequences, but it's okay. And we're human. And the most we can do is just to make the best decisions we can with the information available to us.
01:07:25:11 - 01:07:25:22
Speaker 2
So.
01:07:26:14 - 01:07:55:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Well said, man. And I think that it's awesome that you've given the community a resource to better make, you know, make a better decision to be more informed and, you know, to our audience, we will, we'll put a link in the description to let you explore the map and add the areas that you love to get information on the area, check the forecast, and hopefully, you know, we all use it as a tool on top of mountain project to, you know, if we're thinking about the rain.
01:07:55:12 - 01:08:13:03
Speaker 1
Hopefully after this conversation, we all start thinking about, you know, whether the rocks are wet and use this as just another tool in the harness to to try to be better climbers and better for the community. So definitely check it out. Check the link out, help support and hopefully, you know, if anybody is listening, that's got some pull in the community.
01:08:13:08 - 01:08:27:15
Speaker 1
Let's get this let's get this feature on Mountain project. I Think it's super important to get technology like this put into where everybody's already going so let's let's all just get it all into one place and give Michael some recognition for his work.
01:08:28:18 - 01:08:29:23
Speaker 2
Thank you very much, guys.
01:08:30:08 - 01:08:45:02
Speaker 3
Yeah, thanks a lot for coming on, man. Appreciate it. And, you know, like I said, thanks for providing a resource for the community and, you know, obviously still looking forward to have another conversation with you, which we'll have to set up here in the future.
01:08:45:02 - 01:08:46:14
Speaker 2
Great. Looking forward to it. My pleasure.
01:08:46:20 - 01:09:05:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. It's just a little teaser for everybody listening. We're going to be sitting down with Mike again. We're going to get back into, you know, like we usually do in conversations is get into the history of how he fell in climbing. He's got some pretty remarkable and jaw dropping stories about his his life in climbing. And so, you know, tuned for that.
01:09:05:03 - 01:09:21:01
Speaker 1
And we're going to get those episodes booked. But we felt like it needed to be a separate conversation. So more down the pipeline. So things to be excited about. And honestly, Mike, I'm not sure if this is something that might be on the table, but we're thinking about getting a website design. Do you do website design?
01:09:21:23 - 01:09:26:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, currently I'm I would, I would love to take a swing at it 100%. I mean.
01:09:27:08 - 01:09:36:18
Speaker 1
All right, man. Yeah, we'll have to chat. I think that a part of our 2023 plan is to, to start getting a fresh site up so might have to bounce some ideas off the.
01:09:37:10 - 01:10:03:17
Speaker 2
Site and and.