Everyone in their lives experiences suffering, trauma, depressed states and difficult times. Some people experience these events early in life and some later on. But ultimately, suffering and loss are both tragic and a natural part of the human experience. Our guest today reached out to Kyle and I. He is Ben Levoie. Ben had a traumatic car accident which left him badly injured and severely concussed. This incident resulted in Ben losing 10 years of memory and living with PTSD. Ben wants to share his story in the hopes that it will help others deal with their own trauma and difficult experiences. In today's episode Ben opens up about his life, his accident and how he used climbing to help him with his PTSD. Finally, we talk about the flow state, metal health, and how climbing has helped Ben to create new memories with his son.
Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.
Contact us:
IG: @the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com
Everyone in their lives experiences suffering, trauma, depressed states and difficult times. Some people experience these events early in life and some later on. But ultimately, suffering and loss are both tragic and a natural part of the human experience. Our guest today reached out to Kyle and I. He is Ben Levoie. Ben had a traumatic car accident which left him badly injured and severely concussed. This incident resulted in Ben losing 10 years of memory and living with PTSD. Ben wants to share his story in the hopes that it will help others deal with their own trauma and difficult experiences. In today's episode Ben opens up about his life, his accident and how he used climbing to help him with his PTSD. Finally, we talk about the flow state, metal health, and how climbing has helped Ben to create new memories with his son.
Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.
Contact us:
IG: @the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com
00:00:00:15 - 00:00:24:03
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Climate podcast, where Colin, I sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides, recreational climbers like to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a client. If you haven't already, please subscribe rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.
00:00:26:08 - 00:00:53:02
Speaker 1
Howdy everyone. Max here. Everyone in their lives will experience suffering trauma depressed states in difficult times. Some people experience these events early in life and some later on. But ultimately, suffering and loss, both tragic and natural, are a part of the human experience. Our guest today reached out to both Kyle and I. He is Ben Lavoie. Ben had a traumatic car accident which left him badly injured and severely concussed.
00:00:53:13 - 00:01:19:02
Speaker 1
This incident resulted in Ben losing ten years of memory and living with PTSD. He wants to share his story in hopes that it will help others deal with their own trauma and difficult experiences. In today's episode, Ben opens up about his life, his accident, and how he use climbing to help him with his PTSD. Finally, we talk about the flow, state mental health and how climbing has helped Ben create new memories with his son.
00:01:19:20 - 00:01:23:14
Speaker 1
So without further delay, it is my pleasure to bring to you our conversation.
00:01:23:18 - 00:01:40:11
Speaker 2
Ben Lavoie That was a good way to start the episode.
00:01:40:21 - 00:01:46:20
Speaker 3
I thought it was a little a little preplan, but it worked out pretty.
00:01:47:12 - 00:01:53:01
Speaker 2
All right, everybody, welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast. We are sitting down with Ben Lavoy. Ben, welcome to the show.
00:01:53:07 - 00:01:54:10
Speaker 4
Hi. Thanks for.
00:01:54:17 - 00:01:58:14
Speaker 3
Having me. That's awesome. Lavoy. Lavoy Lavoie.
00:01:58:15 - 00:02:04:03
Speaker 2
Lavoie Do I want to start debate? What should we keep that or should I start over again?
00:02:04:04 - 00:02:06:06
Speaker 1
No, I think it's well, I think it's funny. I think.
00:02:07:03 - 00:02:08:12
Speaker 3
So. Okay.
00:02:09:19 - 00:02:11:13
Speaker 4
Lavoy is with Ally.
00:02:11:20 - 00:02:31:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, for me, my last name is. It's Kelly. So my father is from Quebec, you know, So a little bit of French heritage there. Unfortunately, I was fluent in French until about grade four, and then I switched from a French immersion to an English. And that just totally screwed me up for like spelling and grammar and all these things.
00:02:31:18 - 00:02:47:14
Speaker 1
And I didn't have a very pleasant time in school. And now I don't really speak much French anymore, but I could I think I could pick it up fast enough if I really wanted to. You should. I really want to. Even my. My girlfriend. She's fluent in French, too. It's such a it's such a waste of, like, a resource.
00:02:47:14 - 00:02:48:13
Speaker 1
I don't even get why I'm.
00:02:48:13 - 00:02:49:21
Speaker 3
Not doing it. You know, as I'm.
00:02:49:21 - 00:02:52:08
Speaker 1
Saying this, I've had this realization before, so.
00:02:52:21 - 00:02:53:06
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:02:53:16 - 00:03:01:20
Speaker 2
So your last name again? The way it's supposed to be pronounced. I've never heard this Level two max. Two max. I've never heard Talia Katz.
00:03:01:20 - 00:03:04:10
Speaker 1
French says Carrier. Carrier. Right. That's French.
00:03:04:15 - 00:03:08:18
Speaker 2
I'm out here in America like carrier.
00:03:08:18 - 00:03:13:23
Speaker 1
Now you're in Freedomland. They don't they don't know how to do the arts.
00:03:13:23 - 00:03:16:06
Speaker 4
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:03:16:14 - 00:03:36:02
Speaker 2
Well, yeah. Just welcome to the show, Ben. We're psyched to have you. You know, you are actually a guest that reached out to us after we had kind of, you know, circled back in the year and talked about exactly where this podcast is going and what we're standing for. And we invited people to reach out to come on the show.
00:03:36:02 - 00:03:51:23
Speaker 2
And you did so almost immediately. And so I just want to thank you right away for doing that. I think it's so special to have people reach out to us and want to be on the show and to be represented by the climbing majority. And so thank you for that and I'm super psyched to have you here.
00:03:52:10 - 00:04:15:11
Speaker 4
Well, you're welcome. I hope it will help others. That's my main that's why I contacted you to help others in there and maybe in the same situation. Or they can relate, you know, a bit about what happened to me and what what's actually what's more going on in their head when when climbing. Because I think that kind of stuff happened to a lot of pairs of people.
00:04:16:08 - 00:04:36:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know I definitely second what I what Kyle says. I think it means a lot to us when people, you know, reach out from the community, they talk to us and they feel that this is a place to do that and communicate. So it's really awesome. And, you know, happy to have you here today and to be having this conversation and hopefully providing a resource and some good for some people out there.
00:04:37:08 - 00:04:57:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, because there's no shortage of people out there, as we know, who are going through their own issues and their own struggles, whatever that is. You know, that's just a very, very common thing that we're noticing through this project is just how many people out there are going through, you know, things. And so I think we're here to talk about that, particularly today.
00:04:57:07 - 00:05:02:18
Speaker 1
So, Kyle, how do you want to start this? We're going to we're going to go to the past and get a little bit of backstory here.
00:05:03:06 - 00:05:24:14
Speaker 2
And we are actually we are going to go to the past here. And I think something that you said was interesting. It's how people come to us with just, I don't know, just you know, we've talked to Harvey Merritt, we've talked to a lot of people with some heavy stories. And I think that the most interesting part about it is how climbing has tied into these experiences so much.
00:05:25:14 - 00:05:56:19
Speaker 2
And I think that's like one of the most special things about this, like just this topic today is just how climbing can can save you, can give you perspective, give you purpose and give you a light at the end of the tunnel when when things get pretty dark. So just super psyched. Yeah. To have this conversation. But yeah, like you said to the past, we'd like to start this podcast with getting a well-rounded idea of who we're talking to, how they grew up, how they found climbing, and that's what we're about to do.
00:05:56:19 - 00:05:58:19
Speaker 2
So Ben, take it away.
00:06:00:10 - 00:06:31:06
Speaker 4
Well, I've been I wasn't really into sport when I was really, really young. Like before 12. I wasn't doing much. My father tried to bring me to hockey, play to play hockey, but I really hated it. That team sport and everybody yelling at you. I really didn't like it at all. So I. So funny though. The first real sport, well, when I was more involved was football playing.
00:06:32:10 - 00:07:00:23
Speaker 4
But because in my area, football at that time wasn't popular at all. So nobody was yelling at us. And I really like actually playing in a team, but you're in a team, but what you're doing is really specific, you know, between each position and in the football playing. Uh, so was a football player for like a bit more than five years.
00:07:01:11 - 00:07:41:21
Speaker 4
And I stopped because, well, I'm too short. I'm five, six and playing with, you know, football players that are now six foot two when you're a linebacker, well, that's kind of too much of a difference. Yeah. So I stopped playing football and I went to a day camp and climbing was there. Actually, it was. We just top rope something from electrical post on top of the hill from my latrine was going up there and the post was, you know, and just on the side of a railway and it was a big cliff and we climbed for that.
00:07:41:22 - 00:08:09:19
Speaker 4
So that's my real first experience as climbing. I really liked it, but I'm living in a flat land, so wasn't really available near my place. So I liked it but was on pause for for a couple of years. And then a bit later I found out that there was a climbing gym around my place. So I climb a bit there.
00:08:10:13 - 00:08:41:05
Speaker 4
But my kids were really young at that time. Yeah, the oldest one was was really young, so I was working a bit climbing right after work and came back to came back home. Um, but life is what it is, so I didn't have time to, to do all that. And yeah, anyway, a skin working schedule and having a young children was I couldn't do it.
00:08:41:18 - 00:09:16:01
Speaker 4
So later on I was looking for something to do with my youngest children, my son and a climbing gym was, was opening near my place. So I went there with him and he really liked it. So it's something we did together at first. So he was he really like bouldering. So it was easy. No rope management. The difference in weight from me and him wasn't an issue.
00:09:16:17 - 00:09:28:03
Speaker 4
If we were top roping would have been impossible. But with bouldering was just really cool and something we could do actually together so that that's how it's done.
00:09:28:04 - 00:09:38:21
Speaker 2
I like to circle back on when you when you first started climbing at that camp, how old were you when you were off the side of the cliff? There?
00:09:38:21 - 00:09:40:08
Speaker 4
I was 14 years.
00:09:40:08 - 00:09:58:19
Speaker 2
Old and back in football. I've something that you said that interested me. You said that you didn't like hockey, but then you liked football. And then I was at first confused because it could be in soccer or football. You know, the American and me, I'm not sure. But you said linebacker. Yeah, American cricket. You know that that circled back for me.
00:09:59:18 - 00:10:18:18
Speaker 2
But I'm interested. What about hockey? Did you not like to football? Because to me either they're relatively similar. I think the only thing that I caught and the difference was the yelling. Um, and is that sport specific or is that coaching management style?
00:10:18:18 - 00:10:48:23
Speaker 4
Was it about coaching first? Hockey When you're young, it's like at 6:00 in the morning, in the weekend. So being a kid is not the funniest thing, you know, to wake up super early on the Saturday and miss all the cartoons on the TV to go play hockey. And yeah, it's all the parents that that were yelling at the kids, you know, just I know that they did it for the best.
00:10:48:23 - 00:11:07:06
Speaker 4
You know, it's encouraging and but it was just too much to, you know, go they're not there, you know, pass it to someone to someone or, you know, shoot or whatever. It's like, leave me alone. I'm just I just want to play. You know.
00:11:07:19 - 00:11:08:05
Speaker 3
I do.
00:11:08:05 - 00:11:09:04
Speaker 2
Canadians take.
00:11:09:04 - 00:11:09:17
Speaker 4
I just want to.
00:11:09:22 - 00:11:12:18
Speaker 2
Play hockey pretty seriously. Is it like a serious thing out there.
00:11:14:00 - 00:11:33:14
Speaker 4
Around my place? Yeah. My father's played hockey until he was like 65 or something, so, yeah, he played for a really long time and yeah, as a kid he wanted me to do something. Yeah, he knew about.
00:11:33:14 - 00:11:37:16
Speaker 2
I think, like any father would. I think that's a pretty safe expectation.
00:11:38:08 - 00:12:00:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, I. Yeah, I myself grew up playing hockey. I had a contrary experience. You actually loved hockey, and my dad was a big, big fan of hockey as well. And I remember getting up at like four in the morning to be, you know, at the rink five, 530 for practice and stuff. So definitely, definitely, definitely interesting from both a kids perspective doing that and a parents perspective of like bringing the kid and doing that.
00:12:00:11 - 00:12:19:19
Speaker 1
So I think there's a lot of can be a lot of character building in in that for sure. And I think definitely in Canada hockey can be pretty darn serious, you know, akin to like, you know, American football. It's like obviously it's it's I mean, I think lacrosse is our national sport. So it's not but it's it's as close, you know, as you can get.
00:12:19:19 - 00:12:25:02
Speaker 1
Pretty much so. Yeah. Yeah. Do you did you ever play on rinks outside then.
00:12:25:19 - 00:12:32:05
Speaker 4
You. No, it was all everything was inside and I'm not, I'm still not a good.
00:12:32:23 - 00:12:34:06
Speaker 3
Indicator for sure at all.
00:12:35:20 - 00:12:45:20
Speaker 4
My feet hurts. I'm not, I don't have a good balance on these little metal things and it, it wasn't pretty.
00:12:45:20 - 00:12:48:19
Speaker 3
I'm pretty sure about that. I'm curious.
00:12:48:19 - 00:12:52:10
Speaker 1
Just something we've talked to a lot of people growing up. You know.
00:12:52:15 - 00:12:54:00
Speaker 3
Where you were, you.
00:12:54:00 - 00:13:00:07
Speaker 1
Kind of like a troublemaker growing up. Did you have an aversion to authority? How would you have described yourself growing up? I'm curious.
00:13:00:23 - 00:13:27:15
Speaker 4
Uh, I wasn't a troublemaker, but I'm always doing I'm stubborn. And if I want to do something my way, I will just do it. It's never against anybody. But if I let's say, if I. If I want to build something, I will just do it, no matter. You know, right now, if my girlfriend doesn't like what I'm doing, I don't care.
00:13:27:15 - 00:13:28:04
Speaker 4
I'm trying to.
00:13:28:04 - 00:13:28:15
Speaker 3
Paint.
00:13:29:13 - 00:13:44:15
Speaker 4
I'm not a good painter. I just like to paint. She hates what I'm doing. But it's fine for both of us. Yeah, I just like it. So I will keep doing it just because I like it. As simple as that.
00:13:44:15 - 00:13:45:05
Speaker 2
Yes. Good.
00:13:45:18 - 00:13:47:06
Speaker 1
No, that's awesome. Keep painting, man.
00:13:47:22 - 00:13:52:22
Speaker 3
I'd love to see one of your paintings. Yeah, exactly. I'd like to see it again.
00:13:52:22 - 00:13:53:19
Speaker 4
So on to you.
00:13:53:19 - 00:13:59:08
Speaker 3
Afterward was really? Yeah. Afterwards. If you're comfortable, I'd love. I'd love to see it. You know, it's interesting. We were we recently.
00:13:59:08 - 00:14:08:23
Speaker 1
Talked to this to River Barry. I don't know if you listened to the episode or not, but she ended up trading one of her paintings to someone for, like, mentorship and ice skating.
00:14:09:11 - 00:14:12:07
Speaker 3
And I was like, Yeah, that's really cool. You know, like trading art.
00:14:12:08 - 00:14:27:10
Speaker 1
And climbing is kind of an art. And there was like this exchange of art you know, and like facilitating things. So it was a really interesting display of, I'd say like trading, you know, goods and, and cooperating together to both get something, you know, out of, out of a trade.
00:14:27:17 - 00:14:30:06
Speaker 4
Yet it was a very.
00:14:30:06 - 00:14:34:17
Speaker 3
Good I totally although if you like show up to.
00:14:34:17 - 00:14:39:12
Speaker 1
Like a guided day with a guide or like some climbing trader and then you just have like painting.
00:14:39:12 - 00:14:47:06
Speaker 3
Stuff on them, no discussion or anything, you're like, Oh, I thought I was silently just like a piece of art today. Yeah. So it's like.
00:14:47:06 - 00:14:47:08
Speaker 4
A.
00:14:47:21 - 00:14:59:08
Speaker 3
Six foot by six foot canvas, of course. Yeah. All right. So a little off topic here, but yeah. So you're stubborn. You're I think you might be one of the only non.
00:14:59:08 - 00:15:01:13
Speaker 1
Troublemakers who have been on the podcast, you know.
00:15:01:13 - 00:15:06:06
Speaker 3
So we've got to have first. So that's good.
00:15:06:06 - 00:15:26:08
Speaker 2
The chronology here I'm interested in because I felt like we jumped a little bit. So you're 14 and that's when you found climbing. And then I hear I'd like to show, you know, find a way to bond with my child. Unless you are a father at the age of 15, it seems like.
00:15:27:13 - 00:15:28:17
Speaker 3
It seems like there's a bit.
00:15:28:17 - 00:15:41:03
Speaker 2
Of a gap there. So maybe try to help us kind of cover that gap a little bit, how you'd like to and kind of get us to the point of our main topic here.
00:15:41:03 - 00:16:13:11
Speaker 4
Yeah. So yes, my my first experience was at 14 at that camp. I went back there at 15. Then I got kids actually pretty early in. Yeah, right in my early twenties. So I went back to that climbing gym after work. Like, like I said, um, around that time. So there's, there's a gap between between the two. I remember that I liked the sport.
00:16:14:12 - 00:16:40:04
Speaker 4
I was a football for like two years. I was biking a bit, but uh, yeah, remembered about, about climbing and I knew something was open, close to where I was working. So that's and I was doing the triangle from work to climbing to come back home before my, my then girlfriend was.
00:16:40:04 - 00:16:54:13
Speaker 2
Got a quick, another question I have to kind of circle this in round you out as a person, but before I ask that question I think I don't know which track it's coming from it, but it sounds like a washing machine or water.
00:16:54:13 - 00:17:00:08
Speaker 4
I hear warm water. Okay, okay. Let me just some buddies taking a shower.
00:17:00:08 - 00:17:03:21
Speaker 3
On the second floor. Gotcha. Yeah, I think.
00:17:04:10 - 00:17:06:08
Speaker 2
It's definitely not right back. Sorry.
00:17:07:07 - 00:17:10:00
Speaker 3
Okay. I think I think.
00:17:10:00 - 00:17:23:01
Speaker 1
Ben, you were talking about kind of this triangle, right, where you were saying, okay, like I'm. I go to work and then I go to the gym, and then I think the top of the triangle is going home. Right? And family time and stuff. If I'm not mistaken.
00:17:23:01 - 00:17:23:21
Speaker 4
Yeah, exactly.
00:17:24:03 - 00:17:29:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I just wanted to know if you're okay with sharing at what work was my work?
00:17:29:13 - 00:17:34:13
Speaker 4
Oh, it's manual work. I was a machinist. Oh.
00:17:35:00 - 00:17:37:04
Speaker 2
Have you seen that? That movie, The Machinist.
00:17:37:21 - 00:17:40:16
Speaker 4
Uh, with Christian Bale? No, I.
00:17:40:16 - 00:17:42:14
Speaker 2
Must. You must watch it.
00:17:42:14 - 00:17:43:22
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's. Don't tell him anything.
00:17:44:10 - 00:17:45:00
Speaker 2
Don't tell him.
00:17:45:00 - 00:17:46:16
Speaker 3
Anything. Yeah, I won't say anything.
00:17:46:16 - 00:17:48:14
Speaker 1
You should definitely watch it. Are you. Are you.
00:17:48:14 - 00:17:49:17
Speaker 3
Still okay? You should.
00:17:49:17 - 00:17:50:03
Speaker 2
Watch it.
00:17:50:18 - 00:17:53:04
Speaker 4
Uh, no, no, no. Okay.
00:17:53:18 - 00:17:54:21
Speaker 3
How long did you do that for?
00:17:55:20 - 00:18:07:13
Speaker 4
Uh, not that long. I did it for six years ish. Okay. Yeah, but that's long enough.
00:18:07:13 - 00:18:12:07
Speaker 1
Did you find the work fulfilling something interesting about it, or was it just another job for you?
00:18:12:07 - 00:18:45:00
Speaker 4
No, no, no. I really liked it because it was. I was doing a lot of research and development and development, and I love that that troubleshooting, the troubleshooting of stuff. Basically, I, I, I really like it. And one of the acts but aspect that I like about climbing is actually actually troubleshooting. You know, you're just you're going up there you have what's left on you and you have to pull up something, you know.
00:18:45:13 - 00:19:06:16
Speaker 4
So yes, you're trained, you know, you have phases, but you know, nothing is never perfect. So you have to pull it's something you know, I only have like a point three cam on me. So what can I do with it? Oh, I have a, you know, some things to Why, it's a what can I do with, with that thing.
00:19:06:16 - 00:19:30:03
Speaker 4
I want to keep this and that because I want to do the relay with them. So what I do, I run out, I plug it to low, to high to whatever. So it's troubleshooting all the time. Just how you place yourself on a wall that's troubleshooting, you know, where's my balance? Where am I going to A to be?
00:19:30:03 - 00:19:44:00
Speaker 4
And, you know, and then you see the see. So how do you pull them together? So that's something I really like about climbing. It's a bit yeah. It brings everything together like that.
00:19:44:20 - 00:20:02:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's interesting that you say that. Like right now I'm studying like a very basic physics course. And I, you know, I've mentioned this before, but I dropped out of high school, so up until about the age of 26, I really did not have much of a formal type of education. I saw a lot of knowledge, but not in the traditional sense of education.
00:20:03:04 - 00:20:24:01
Speaker 1
And so I was kind of going into this course with virtually not really the mathematic credential or any like zero physics background, but I think all the climbing and constant calculating and looking at angles and thinking force over time and the rope out in the system and, you know, analyzing pieces and looking at force like all that has really helped me to conceptualize it.
00:20:24:01 - 00:20:41:14
Speaker 1
And then physics itself is obviously just like applied math. So it's so fascinating to be able to learn something and instantly have it be applicable. I really, really like that. So it's been it's been a really cool, cool course. But just what you were saying really made me think about that of how it is this problem solving and analyzing and risk analysis.
00:20:41:14 - 00:20:53:11
Speaker 1
And it's constantly assessing, reassessing, assessing, reassessing and using your body and your skill and your mind to kind of solve the puzzle. Right. And there's something that's so that's it's just saying that I'm getting pumped. I'm like, oh.
00:20:53:18 - 00:20:59:03
Speaker 3
I know exactly. I mean, I'm like, oh, so good. Yeah. So yeah, there's just something so.
00:20:59:03 - 00:21:05:23
Speaker 1
Magical about it and so interesting and cool. So, and also very scary at the same time. Yeah, well, you're.
00:21:06:04 - 00:21:33:14
Speaker 2
And I think that's what makes it so special though is because there is this, this, this danger, this risk where if you don't do it right, you can get pretty fucked. And so yeah that's like it adds that intensity and yeah like I mean I think you said it so well it's to me I really relate with the the calculating the gear like, like you can have a perfect number two in front of you and you're like, oh I want to put that in so bad.
00:21:33:22 - 00:21:57:12
Speaker 2
But if you lack foresight and you know that you need that number two for the anchor or, you know, the crux needs the number to like, you could burn all your great pieces and then get to the crux and just be fucked with no good gear. And it's like, you know, having the foresight, the planning, the, you know, being creative with the placements, like, I love that so much.
00:21:57:12 - 00:22:10:07
Speaker 2
It's just it makes climbing so magical and that's why I love Trad so much. You know, as sport climbing, there's a bit of raw physicality to it, which I like. But Trad is just there's so much more depth. There's so much more depth.
00:22:10:21 - 00:22:51:03
Speaker 4
Yeah, Tread is for me, it's almost like meditation. I don't push as hard on trad. I don't mind not pushing as hard on trad, but I just like, like the meditation aspect of it or just zone. I think it's kind of relate together, just being there, being at that place at that time, now thinking only about that, that that's just a zone I want, I want to be in, in, in trad as opposed to sport climbing or elite climbing.
00:22:51:03 - 00:23:08:20
Speaker 4
I don't know which one is which inside and outside, but yeah, with sport you can push harder because you just, you know, you're aiming that bolt. You want to clip that bolt and that's it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:10:05 - 00:23:33:22
Speaker 2
So we, um, there's this, you know, we're, we're flirting around this kind of like the, the timeline in the story, kind of like, loop us in to, to kind of where you were when you were working as a machinist. You now have kids and you're, you know, you've, you've played with climbing, but you haven't really experienced it that much.
00:23:33:22 - 00:23:39:22
Speaker 2
And now, like, kind of bridge the gap here for us and and let us dive into the to the topic.
00:23:41:02 - 00:24:25:21
Speaker 4
Uh, well, what happened is, uh, like probably the title of the that thought this podcast will be I had a pretty bad accident and a car accident and what happened? The main factor why I came back to climbing is I lost like around a decade of memory. So because I got a concussion and in that accident and when I woke up the morning after that accident, I remember that my boy, my my boy was there.
00:24:26:13 - 00:25:02:22
Speaker 4
I knew he was my boy. I knew his name, but I didn't remember anything about him prior to that date. I remember my daughter. That's how actually I knew the how long the time lapse. My memory was gone. I remembered her when she was really young. But my boy, I didn't remember anything. So I was looking for something to do with him.
00:25:03:23 - 00:25:36:05
Speaker 4
Uh, to make new memory. And that's how climbing came. Because I don't know, maybe. Maybe something, you know, and something on Facebook, you know, a publicity or marketing of some sort. And I just saw climbing and hey, let's just, you know, try it and do something on a Saturday with with him. And that's how it started with him.
00:25:36:05 - 00:26:06:15
Speaker 4
So we that was something we could do together. Um, once a week we were just bouldering because it was so young. He couldn't believe I couldn't be bullied by him. So bouldering was there. Bouldering is it's easy. You only need a pair of shoe, some chalk, and there you go. That's a beauty of, of bouldering. It's so accessible so that that's how it started.
00:26:06:15 - 00:26:31:01
Speaker 4
And actually two points zero for climbing. It's kind of that time actually, because before that I knew it was there. I made a bit, you know, I climbed a little bit, but not that much. Nothing to to a point to, you know, to be to want to be better or to improve or something, which is something I did randomly.
00:26:31:15 - 00:26:56:22
Speaker 2
You lost ten years of your memory. Yeah. I think that I mean, just that statement in itself is, is something that's really heavy and hard to sit with. My my question here is, did you forget that you had climbed like was climbing? Now you had you remembered your climbing experience that you had had?
00:26:57:10 - 00:27:33:11
Speaker 4
Yeah, some aspect. I remembered them. Uh, everything prior to that ten years is like rock solid in my mind still to this day. So, um. So yeah, when I woke up, uh, you know, that, that ten, those ten years were gone, but it was actually, it was, was, it was like almost if I was just out of high school because of that, you know.
00:27:33:16 - 00:27:48:12
Speaker 4
So my point zero was ten years before. So I remember some stuff within that ten years. It wasn't all wiped out, but most of it was out.
00:27:48:12 - 00:27:54:10
Speaker 2
Are you are you saying that you felt that you woke up if you felt like you woke up younger than you actually were?
00:27:55:13 - 00:28:11:20
Speaker 4
Not instantly, but when I look at it, yeah, it's like if I'm ten years younger than I am now. Wow. And actually I get along much better with young Anger person than my age. Because.
00:28:12:03 - 00:28:14:07
Speaker 3
Because of that. That's insane. Wow.
00:28:14:15 - 00:28:18:11
Speaker 2
That's fucking insane. I am like, mind blown right now.
00:28:18:11 - 00:28:31:06
Speaker 4
And my girlfriend is one of the only person I really get really well along. She's my age, but. Yeah, but she's special.
00:28:32:12 - 00:28:34:09
Speaker 3
Yes. Yeah.
00:28:34:21 - 00:28:48:16
Speaker 4
She she's not her age as well. Not that we are like kind of wannabe youngster, which is the state of mind where I don't feel that we are old people or people of our age.
00:28:50:04 - 00:28:50:19
Speaker 3
So.
00:28:51:01 - 00:29:16:10
Speaker 1
So not to linger the point too much, but you're you're kind of waking up. You've got this ten years of memory missing. I think for me, I kind of unfortunately just there's so much media that we're accustomed to. You think of some like dramatic scene in a hospital bed or something. How did you process that emotion? You know, not having this kind of idea that this is your son, but missing ten years of your life?
00:29:16:10 - 00:29:32:23
Speaker 1
Was this something that it took you a long time to process? Was it very emotional? How how were you kind of coming out of that situation? Because I don't really have an idea of even what that would look like for somebody to emotionally process right.
00:29:32:23 - 00:30:13:05
Speaker 4
Well, it was a pretty bad car accident. So the ten years when one of many things to to handle. So in that accident, actually somebody died died there and how can I phrase that? Yeah, somebody died in that that car accident and I think the first big part to handle was actually why he died and why I did not.
00:30:13:13 - 00:30:56:08
Speaker 4
That was much more hard to process than the ten years. The ten years is like, well, that's how that's how it is. And, you know, and that just build new memories. And I mean, life goes on. I can, you know, the the being alive and almost walking out of that accident while somebody died it the discrepancies is so, so high it's like it's it's why that that why the well you h why stays there for four months.
00:30:56:19 - 00:31:35:06
Speaker 4
Why am I here. What am I why, why am I walking? Why, why so little? Why? And I mean by why so little. I had like a dozen bones broken, but I could still walk, you know? So I don't know if the word steak was so different. I don't. I don't think it's the right expression, but the outcome was so different, you know, for me and that person, that that was the hardest part to process the ten years was like was kindergarden and compared to that.
00:31:36:03 - 00:31:44:17
Speaker 4
So it's there. But that wasn't the biggest thing to to process there.
00:31:45:01 - 00:32:07:10
Speaker 2
I don't know about you, Max, but it reminds me of Adam Campbell's story a little bit. I don't know about, you know, a Ben if you've heard the story, but Adam lost his wife in an avalanche that he was there for and that he triggered it. Not necessarily was his fault, but he definitely was the one who triggered the avalanche.
00:32:07:10 - 00:32:33:01
Speaker 2
And so, you know, he had, you know, his his situation of feeling like, why me? Why, you know, why am I alive versus this other person. I think that, you know, is there some pretty big parallels there? And yeah, it's a heavy thing to deal with. And I think the hardest thing about it is that there is no answer there.
00:32:33:01 - 00:32:44:04
Speaker 2
There's no no answer, there's no justification, there's no nothing to really grasp on to. And that's something that you have to deal with in itself is that there really is no closure.
00:32:45:01 - 00:33:22:12
Speaker 4
Yeah. And nobody understand what you're going through as well. They they did they tried to help as much as they can, but they're not in your head. They're not in the they're not in. It's like all your senses. It's everything. It's it's when you're sleeping, it's when you're awake, it's it hurt. But because you have, you know, broken bones and everything, but you're like, who cares if it hurts?
00:33:22:12 - 00:33:50:21
Speaker 4
Somebody died. It's always it's always bringing back to that. You know, somebody died and you know, actually the worst part about not remembering ten years prior to the accident is not remembering the accident itself. So you don't know what happened. And I think the the big point with the whole PTSD thing is you don't know what happened. You don't know where you fucked up.
00:33:51:23 - 00:34:15:19
Speaker 4
So you just know it happened. But you don't know how. You don't know when. You don't know. You know, the IED, an accident is always a result of of bad decision. Whatever you do, you know, in climbing, you forgot something. You're climbing when it's wet, when it's too hot, and you don't bring enough water. And then you're confused, you know, after a couple of hours.
00:34:16:20 - 00:34:49:13
Speaker 4
But, you know, the point zero of that sequence where it all start up, you know, but in this case, in in my case and what happened, I don't know when it started. So the the biggest thing with the PTSD situation, it's always that I don't remember. So I don't know what was the point zero. I don't know how to change that first bad step.
00:34:50:10 - 00:35:24:08
Speaker 4
So with every at every situation, every step you make, every movement you make until you know, it takes sometimes, but you're always Is it the first bad decision I'm doing today that will lead to to something bad to fatality zero always bring that up. But yeah, you don't know if it's the first bad step of the day or the first bad step of of a situation.
00:35:24:16 - 00:35:33:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. The first two things that come to mind are that I feel like I would experience is a lack and trust in myself.
00:35:33:17 - 00:35:34:01
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:35:35:02 - 00:35:59:10
Speaker 2
And also a like oh yeah. A lack of trust or God, I wish I knew where I was going with this. I had it in my head. Yeah. It's just a lack of trust. Like not knowing, okay. Lack of trust versus a lack of control over your decisions. Did you feel like you could all of a sudden make a decision?
00:35:59:10 - 00:36:09:19
Speaker 2
Like, because I would assume bear with me here. I'm formulating this thought I would assume that you feel in control of your life and your day to day decisions. Is that correct?
00:36:10:05 - 00:36:10:13
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:36:11:02 - 00:36:37:13
Speaker 2
Okay. So do you feel like because of this accident and your lack of memory of what happened, you feel like you could randomly make a decision that could be poor and potentially fatal for someone and you exactly that that self-control or do you lack? I guess it's the same thing. I guess it's the same thing I'm getting out here is the trust in yourself and the control to make the decisions that you need to do.
00:36:38:00 - 00:36:40:14
Speaker 2
And so, yeah, I guess it's like this.
00:36:41:09 - 00:36:42:01
Speaker 4
Yeah, stressful.
00:36:42:01 - 00:36:47:15
Speaker 2
Situation because you don't know what you're capable of. Exactly.
00:36:47:22 - 00:37:24:08
Speaker 4
Yeah that is, that is correct. And yes, you lose all the trust in you because you know that you failed once. So will I fail again? And in my case, I don't remember why I fail where I failed. So at some point it's even it's kind of over now that that part. But it's like you're almost waiting to fail again because it happened and you're like, okay, well, it happened once.
00:37:24:08 - 00:37:30:21
Speaker 4
It will happen again. So you're almost kind of waiting for that.
00:37:31:08 - 00:37:32:14
Speaker 2
Expected to happen.
00:37:32:20 - 00:37:33:20
Speaker 4
Yeah, exactly.
00:37:34:12 - 00:37:58:10
Speaker 1
So you can correct me if you think I'm wrong here. I'm kind of posing a question and also making assumptions for my own life. And I'll I'll pretty face it by saying not trying to compare my struggles to your struggles. I'm simply just saying I know from my own issues that I've dealt with and from, you know, hearing anecdotes and other people, when you go through really, really hard times, it's generally when you need the support.
00:37:58:10 - 00:38:19:20
Speaker 1
But psychologically you are the most hurt and the most isolated. You don't feel like you can relate to anybody. You isolate yourself, you're incredibly depressed in certain instances. You're even questioning your own existence or people can think of suicide. Would you say that those kind of like that kind of characterized your experience coming out of that?
00:38:19:20 - 00:39:01:04
Speaker 4
Um, suicides for sure. Um, but looking back at it, um, I don't know why, actually, maybe just to stop the pain or just not to be a burden for anybody else. But I stopped, I stopped thinking about suicide when I decided to make an example of what happened to my children, That's. That's when I stop thinking about suicide.
00:39:01:04 - 00:39:40:09
Speaker 4
Just. Okay, let's stop. You know, in my head, I was like, Let's stop about that. Stop thinking about this all the time. Now you need to show them that the worst situation that you can think of, you can overcome it. It won't be perfect, it won't be pretty. But you need to do something. You cannot just, you know, like let yourself die and, you know, I was smoking a lot cigarets I never drank and never really like drugs, which is in this case a good thing.
00:39:40:09 - 00:40:08:12
Speaker 4
So yeah, actually in my case, I didn't take drugs because I wanted to hurt as much as it can. It's stupid, but that's how it was processed in my head. So I was not into drinking and into heavy drugs or whatever because in my head it was like, it needs to hurt so much because somebody die and nothing can can be more than that.
00:40:08:12 - 00:40:41:10
Speaker 4
So you need to suffer and menu whatever. At some point you need to, you know, after years you're like, okay, it needs to stop. I need what I'm going to do with that. I need to go somewhere. So I decided to, yeah, try to be an example as as the best way I could to my children to show them that, yeah, you can overcome something as bad as it can be.
00:40:41:10 - 00:40:43:00
Speaker 4
None of it makes sense.
00:40:43:00 - 00:41:08:20
Speaker 1
Or it makes it makes perfect sense. Yeah, I it absolutely makes sense. I think that's just so powerful how there's kind of this, like, I don't know, maybe this is out of turn, but this symbiosis where it's like, you know, your kids are driving you to want to to live and and you're driven to like, show them that it's possible to like, get through this of this kind of situation.
00:41:08:20 - 00:41:28:07
Speaker 1
Right. And I don't know. It's just such a heavy, unbelievably challenging, you know, situation. Yeah. So I'm almost just at a loss for words, just, you know, how much that is for someone to to go through and to experience and stuff. It's it's just it's it's such a lot, you know.
00:41:28:19 - 00:41:55:04
Speaker 4
Yeah. Something I want to add what you said, Max. You know, like my struggle are not as bad as yours are Something like I'm paraphrasing here, but we all have struggles and our struggles are the only one we know. So they are the worst that we know because they are. It's the only one we are We can deal with.
00:41:55:04 - 00:42:18:19
Speaker 4
So, you know, my struggle or your struggles, it's for me, it's the same thing because they're there and that's what you know. So you cannot relate to mine. I can't relate to yours as well. It's just they're yours. Know how I don't know where I'm going with that. But, you know.
00:42:19:01 - 00:42:55:04
Speaker 2
I think that it's an honorable position to take. But I think I'm going to take the counterargument here and say that there are certain situations that are subjectively more traumatic, and that is just a reflection on the human existence. I think that we all can empathetically understand it, at least on a very basic level, the difference between certain levels of suffering and yeah, it's just like your story is, is is a unique one.
00:42:55:22 - 00:43:23:11
Speaker 2
And I think I like to turn it towards at this point. I'd like to turn it towards how you have, you know, you've turned the corner, you've dealt with the suffering, you've dealt with the guilt and you know you're you I'm sure that currently still deal with PTSD. I think it's something that, you know, people that go through very traumatic experiences deal with on a on a day to day basis in some kind of respect.
00:43:24:15 - 00:43:40:19
Speaker 2
So maybe, you know, to tie this back to climbing a little bit, when did you find the relationship between climbing down and it helping with your healing process and your handling of the post-traumatic stress?
00:43:41:19 - 00:44:16:10
Speaker 4
Uh, it's really being in the moment, So it's been in the moment and turning that part of your brain off. So not thinking about what happened then, but thinking about what is happening now and in, in my case, because I didn't know what would happen for the accident, I kind of overcome that, that by learning as much as I could about climbing.
00:44:16:15 - 00:44:52:02
Speaker 4
So I'll, you know, all the gear placements, what type of gear does what what are the forces involved, how much of forces, you know, different pieces of gear can take And when in doubt, I don't know if I can, you know, plug another a YouTube show but how not to that that YouTube channel. Well, when you're when you're in doubt about something let's say a because you're you always think you're going to fail again.
00:44:52:06 - 00:45:21:08
Speaker 4
So you place a gear and you're like, oh, that that's not going to hold or know my somebody is going to climb on that gear and I don't want to I don't want it to fail, you know, So you're never sure. But watching in this example, that TV channel, that YouTube channel, well, you know that seven killing killer Newt and you will almost never achieve that on a fall.
00:45:21:13 - 00:45:34:14
Speaker 4
So if the cam is worth can can hold like ten or 14 killer Newtons you know that it will never break. So it's just the placement at that point that.
00:45:35:13 - 00:45:39:20
Speaker 2
That yeah we actually we actually had Ryan Jenks on the show I'm not sure if you saw the episode.
00:45:40:11 - 00:45:46:02
Speaker 4
I, I think I think that's when I started listening.
00:45:46:02 - 00:45:48:11
Speaker 2
To you guys. Okay cool.
00:45:48:11 - 00:45:50:00
Speaker 1
It was Yeah. He's super good enough.
00:45:50:11 - 00:45:52:14
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, he's super good at it. Yeah.
00:45:53:00 - 00:45:54:21
Speaker 1
No, Ryan's a great guy. Was really awesome.
00:45:56:05 - 00:45:56:08
Speaker 4
Yeah.
00:45:56:18 - 00:45:58:14
Speaker 2
I hope he's doing well in Washington right now.
00:45:58:22 - 00:46:04:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I have a couple of questions for you here. Hopefully I'm not going to throw too much away. So first one.
00:46:04:20 - 00:46:05:02
Speaker 3
Is.
00:46:06:22 - 00:46:26:09
Speaker 1
You know, did climbing because you talked about how, okay, you're missing memory from this experience. This is kind of like a loss of control or a loss of understanding of what can happen in a situation. So to me, that kind of means like there's this underlying tone of like a loss of control in your life in some aspect, if that makes sense.
00:46:26:09 - 00:46:53:08
Speaker 1
And I'm wondering, did climbing help you regain that control? Because you're you're fully when you're leading, especially trad or you know, you're so in control of the situation and the outcome is 100% your responsibility. And what happens is is on you make sense. And I'm wondering if that kind of gave you like a greater sense of control in your life.
00:46:53:08 - 00:47:10:21
Speaker 4
Yes, it does. It's having control. It's having also like being in in the present. So I don't know how to.
00:47:11:10 - 00:47:17:09
Speaker 2
Is I'm going to take a leap. Here is the word you're looking for Pride.
00:47:17:09 - 00:47:20:11
Speaker 4
No, no. Friday, zero. Friday, no Friday at all.
00:47:21:03 - 00:47:43:05
Speaker 2
Well, no pride in in decision making in in. You know, like choosing the right decision and making the right choices and gear. Like, is there a pride in in knowing that you are making the right decisions and you you are kind of like going at least on a climbing route. You're able to make the right judgment call. Is that like a part of it?
00:47:44:20 - 00:48:30:17
Speaker 4
I Yeah, it's a part of it. It's a part of yeah, it's a part of being in control of your movement, your placement, your breathing, and actually all this just calms me down, just stops the voices in my head. So it just calms me down. It gets me in the present that the only thing that matters is the rock, the rope, the gear, the bilayer, and that's all going together, like delaying somebody and just being with that person as he or she is climbing.
00:48:31:16 - 00:48:58:17
Speaker 4
That's something I think we don't we don't have much in other sports, you know, because that person, you have a life in your hands on that end of the rope. That's that's that person life. So you need to be fully attentive to what's what's going on and how she breathe he or she breathe how she's moving. And that's when she's climbing.
00:48:58:17 - 00:49:33:02
Speaker 4
When you are leading is just okay. That anchor That's a really good anchor. That person can, you know, can fall and climb on that. I'm 100% confident on that. And yes, it brings back confidence. It brings back also it's like baby steps. Oh, that that's a good a good path there. That's baby steps because, you know, when I said earlier that you don't know I don't know where the first bad step of that day was, the day of the accident.
00:49:33:14 - 00:50:03:00
Speaker 4
Well, when you're climbing and you achieve one pitch, well, it's nothing happen. All the decisions were good. You know, the conditions were good, the placement were good, the rope was good, believing everything was fine. So, yes, that that 15, 30 minutes or 60 minutes time, that was that was fine. So, yes, that brought me actually thinking about it.
00:50:03:00 - 00:50:13:06
Speaker 4
That brought me confidence that, you know, that part of the day, that 30 minutes. Well, that was fine. So if that's fine, I can make another one.
00:50:13:06 - 00:50:41:10
Speaker 2
And then there's like, there's concrete proof that you did make the right decisions because you're both alive and you got through the pitch and it was a successful accomplish. Schmitt And able to quantify that in a very physical sense, yeah. So I get that. And I think that, you know, you talk about being in the present, and I think for me, and this is something we've talked about on the show before, is to me that just means the flow state.
00:50:42:05 - 00:51:17:07
Speaker 2
You know, like I've heard that talked about with Dean Potter and a lot of other kind of, you know, mental states is just the flow state. It's when time no longer exists. It's when you're so absorbed in the present action that nothing else exists except what you're doing and what's right in front of you. And I think that climbing is so magical is because you can get into such a deep flow state because there is that level of risk and intensity and there's so much cerebral activity that it requires your utmost attention to detail during every moment.
00:51:18:05 - 00:51:42:04
Speaker 2
And so it forces us into the present, even though, you know, certain people like, you know, yourself and whoever might have gone through something extremely traumatic where you're always been pulled away from the present, you're thinking about the past, you're reliving past events, you're wondering why certain things happened when you're climbing, you literally do not have the capacity to focus on anything else except what's in front of you.
00:51:42:04 - 00:52:05:23
Speaker 2
And so it's like this visceral thing that forces you into the present and forces you into a flow state and triggers these flight or flight fight or flight sensors in our in our human anatomy that, yeah, it's just such a magical thing. And so I think that, you know and to me that's how I relate to your your description of of being in the present.
00:52:05:23 - 00:52:39:06
Speaker 4
And you know, when you are in that flow state, at some point you want to go back there and before you're climbing well, you learn how to get more quickly to that flow state and that part to learn that that helps also for PTSD because yes, PTSD is always thinking back or getting anxious and thinking forward too much, but not being in the present.
00:52:39:14 - 00:53:05:22
Speaker 4
And when you learn to go in the flow state, you just you don't learn in the textbook, but you just learn it because you're doing it again and again and again. You can get there quicker and that's really nice because it gets you in the present and then you use that that ability, you know, in other places also at your in your life.
00:53:06:04 - 00:53:10:05
Speaker 4
So that that's something that really helpful. Yeah, I don't know.
00:53:10:08 - 00:53:32:18
Speaker 2
So it's interesting that you're talking about getting into flow state in a quicker sense. I think that in my experience I've noticed a very big discrepancy between people who can access the flow state quickly versus people who it takes a while to get into that flow state. For me, that's it's just a skill set that I've been blessed with.
00:53:33:08 - 00:53:55:02
Speaker 2
I, you know, the second I touch the rock and I am on lead and I commit myself to the climb, I'm in the flow state like immediately it's like a black and white experience for me. Max I want to kind of just chime you in here a little bit and get your experience on like how how quickly flow state is achieved.
00:53:55:02 - 00:54:09:23
Speaker 2
And are there any triggers in terms of, you know, Ben is talking here about like the more you spend in it, the faster you can get back to it. I guess that is that kind of experience by practicing over and over again is something that you relate to.
00:54:10:06 - 00:54:31:04
Speaker 1
I would agree with the sediment. The more you do it, the quicker you can get into it. For me, at least I process in climbing. I don't have this instantaneous thing where I can just get into it really, really quickly. I find generally the first pitch or two for me is it's very I'm very off somethings, you know, I'm trying to get very present.
00:54:31:04 - 00:54:55:10
Speaker 1
I'm very present on. My my nerves are too high, my anxiety is too high. There's kind of this clunkiness to it, if that makes sense. And then eventually I get into it and I lock in and I start, I kind of relax things decompress those nerves. Sure. Obviously, in scary moments you still have them. But there is this more just focus other this focus meditation.
00:54:55:10 - 00:55:23:14
Speaker 1
Like when I hear the flow state, that's what I think of it. Essentially, you get the same thing in certain internal sports when there is so much risk for your pain or physical, you know, physical use of your body. When any of those parameters are met to such an extreme, you're not worried about the Burger King meal you ate last night that you regret or, you know, whatever, insert, whatever the thing you're so present.
00:55:23:14 - 00:55:45:11
Speaker 1
There's literally nothing else in that moment that you could possibly be doing except exactly what you were doing with 100% intent. And you can kind of replicate that. And it's the same thing with endurance sports when you're kilometer 50 of an ultra race and literally every single step your body just wants to shut down and you have to just go, Keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going.
00:55:45:16 - 00:56:06:22
Speaker 1
You can't think of anything else except being so unbelievably present. And so my thought process behind it is it's essentially force meditation. It's you can go listen to Sam Harris's guided meditation in your kitchen and practice for, you know, six weeks in a row calmly trying to do that. If you can make that work, which I've tried, meditation is amazing.
00:56:06:22 - 00:56:33:04
Speaker 1
It works when I do it. The problem is I don't do it, but if I just go out and I suffer or I run or I ski or I climb, I get into this state, this, this, this just meditation, that is just the most amazing thing I've ever experienced. And that's just that's just one component. Then there's like the accomplishment of the climb, the fun of climbing, you know, there's all these other things that get compiled on to this force meditation.
00:56:33:04 - 00:56:44:10
Speaker 1
So that's my experience. It is not instantaneous, but I do get there and it is the most rewarding thing that I that I love, you know, it's one of the things I love most of my life. So yeah.
00:56:46:01 - 00:56:48:18
Speaker 4
Now you forgot the boredom also, when running.
00:56:49:06 - 00:56:54:19
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah, that's the first 30 kilometers. All right. But you forget about that really quickly. So.
00:56:55:02 - 00:57:00:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's one thing. And climbing. I don't. I would never correlate those two words together as boredom and climbing.
00:57:01:01 - 00:57:02:05
Speaker 4
I don't know. Maybe they.
00:57:02:05 - 00:57:05:05
Speaker 2
Maybe the approach, but not. Not during climbing.
00:57:05:18 - 00:57:06:00
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00:57:06:21 - 00:57:22:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, No climbing. Just has that extra level of calculation on it. Right. You can't just be in them and not like I mean, I'm sure you can if you're good enough or something, but you know, if you're pitch one and you're just in the monotony of it, it's like, well, it might be easy, but you still have to calculate like your piece is in your gear.
00:57:22:05 - 00:57:56:07
Speaker 1
There's this level of like, I'm going to die in the first ten feet. It hits you right away, right? Whereas like running really Well, you know, depending unless you're like running on the side of a cliff or scrambling or something, it it can have a lot of variables and a lot of change to it. I hope this isn't going off too far, but I'm wondering, like, even just for myself, for people who are listening, you know, when I hear the words PTSD, there's a lot of things you can think of, but I feel like not actually having a full comprehension of it.
00:57:56:07 - 00:58:25:12
Speaker 1
Obviously. And then and then I'm sure different people experience that in different ways. So I'm wondering if maybe you'd be okay if you're comfortable maybe explaining a little bit of like what was that like for you was is like for you to have PTSD and maybe what are some of those symptoms or some things you experience on a daily basis to just kind of round things off so people can understand like what you're dealing with and why climbing is helping with that.
00:58:25:12 - 00:58:57:04
Speaker 4
Well, it's getting better in the past year, but mostly it was nightmares, like the same nightmares over and over and over again. So, you know, the nightmare was that kid is screaming. Well, it's just that it wakes you up. You go back to sleep. And 30 minutes and hour later, the kids scream again and you wake up. So there was that.
00:58:57:04 - 00:59:30:13
Speaker 4
There was another one I think is getting in the bus. I felt like sick going in the bus. I don't know why a bus, but just going in a bus alone. I don't know if it's been like like having difficulties with separation with my loved one. But going in a bus, it was was hell. I can go hiking or climbing not far from my place, but I.
00:59:30:20 - 00:59:59:01
Speaker 4
I take a bus ride for a 45 minutes to an hour and it was like, yeah, I was getting sick in the bus for for no reason. I was like, okay, I need to get out. I need to get out that just to that. And at some point I never got out because I thought, you know, what are you going to do on the side of the road, you know, is going to leave you there where are you going to do that?
00:59:59:02 - 00:59:59:12
Speaker 3
You're going to.
01:00:00:05 - 01:00:02:03
Speaker 4
You're going to wait for word for the next.
01:00:02:03 - 01:00:05:16
Speaker 3
Bus the next day. That's really.
01:00:05:16 - 01:00:45:08
Speaker 4
Stupid. You know, you're going to wait 2 hours for the next bus to go back to the same place. So, you know, just shut up and go to where you want to go. Yeah. At every every night before climbing for like two or three years. I couldn't sleep because I was anxious of what could happen. Would my be there, see me just fall into the ground and need to handle my, you know, my body or something?
01:00:45:08 - 01:01:23:09
Speaker 4
I didn't want that person to to handle that. I was afraid to, to, to, to drop my, my partner as well. So all that anxiety the night before going climbing was much more present when climbing outside the pitch. Our longer I mean, it's a full day. It's not just like 2 hours at the gym. At the gym it it's still do it with new person.
01:01:23:09 - 01:01:53:22
Speaker 4
So I'm really with new person I'm climbing with. So if it's a new person, I don't know how that person reacts in this situation that I'm used to, my usual partner. So I know how she I exactly know how she moves. She breathe. She she hold on to, you know, to to I know how she I know how she claims.
01:01:53:22 - 01:02:43:16
Speaker 4
So I can just read how she's doing without even talking. But with a new person. A new partner. Uh, yeah, I still have that anxiety. Will that person drop me? Will I drop that person? What's the communication going to be be like? So it's all question always going through my mind. The biggest ones is our dad. Yeah. The the night before the anxiety of a Yeah that that's something go go bad it's like that the nightmares were there and now they're gone and yeah been got you loved one.
01:02:44:08 - 01:03:19:21
Speaker 2
Do you have more anxiety around people's control over you or your control over other people. And this is more of a climbing centric question because you've you've you've talked about your relationship between the climber and the bully or whether it's you climbing or you. Blaine And I've started to feel a little bit of a weighted emotional charge towards one side or the other.
01:03:21:11 - 01:03:31:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. Like, do you do you feel more anxiety when you're the blame for somebody leading or do you feel more anxiety when you are the leader and someone's in charge of your life?
01:03:34:04 - 01:04:03:15
Speaker 4
Neither one or the other. It's if it's a new person, if it's a new person, I don't know how that person will be and I don't know how that person is is climbing because I, I can read that person as well as somebody I'm used to climb with. So what I mean by that is, let's say you climbing outside a support route, the bolts are more spread out them outside.
01:04:04:01 - 01:04:34:04
Speaker 4
So even if you clip the first bolt, you know that between the first and the second one, if the person fail, she will probably hit the hit the ground. Of course, you don't want that to happen, but when you you're not used to to climb with that person, you don't treat that person that well. So you don't know when she's going to fall or he's going to fall if he's going to fall.
01:04:34:13 - 01:04:52:16
Speaker 4
And what's a bold move for one person is not the same one as the other. You don't know what's their capacity. So for building that, that's that. And when I'm leading, it's about the same thing as well.
01:04:52:20 - 01:05:01:04
Speaker 2
It's your relationship to the layer rather than a control aspect of I natural versus their in control. Okay, that makes sense.
01:05:01:14 - 01:05:27:07
Speaker 4
Yeah it's it's an individual sport but when you're climbing with someone it's like it becomes a team. It's it's, it's symbiotic together. It needs to work together that that's how I see it. For a foot climbing. It's not just me climbing something. It's is a relation. Also with with two person.
01:05:28:17 - 01:05:31:18
Speaker 3
Well I was just thinking you know the the majority.
01:05:31:18 - 01:05:52:06
Speaker 1
Of the climbing I do is actually with my girlfriend REI like I do climb with other people but she's the majority have climbed with and so I lead most of the pitches like she's she's starting to do more leads and stuff and getting into that. But for me to actually take a position of blame, that's actually been the skill that I haven't worked on that much.
01:05:52:06 - 01:06:21:08
Speaker 1
And so when you kind of in a sense relinquish that sense of like control and you put your trust in the person who is then going ahead of you, that's that's actually a very different skill. It's a very it's a very different part of climbing. And you really do have to relinquish this control and this trust and then put your hands in that person and say, like all right, I trust you like and and you know, and then then kind of give them the freedom to go and do that.
01:06:21:13 - 01:06:39:22
Speaker 1
And just for me, in my own life, I've been experiencing how that's a very different skill and how that, you know, it comes with a whole different set of anxiety and worry or anything. And then especially if you climb with, you know, not that you should care more if it's like your girlfriend or a loved one, but there is like this added sense, you.
01:06:39:22 - 01:06:44:23
Speaker 3
Know, like, I wouldn't want to say like there's a vested interest, but there is. Yeah, there is.
01:06:44:23 - 01:07:05:05
Speaker 1
This interesting added sense. So that's another thing too. But, but I do just think that's a really interesting thing. They're almost like two different skills. And being an active partner when you in the lead role, you know, there's so many things that you can do that, you know, whether that's getting rope ready, getting gear ready, getting, you know, spotting the room, giving guidance, helping, you know, being ready, making sure you're rock risk.
01:07:05:07 - 01:07:09:11
Speaker 1
And then there's A to Z. You can make sure you're a very active partner.
01:07:10:21 - 01:07:40:01
Speaker 4
Yeah. And if you're proactive also, it really helps the other one. And you know, like I'm I'm not that tall, so if I'm climbing with somebody really taller than me, you know, when, when clipping as an example. Well, giving enough slack can be a challenge if you want to do it quick, you're short. If you're climbing with someone is six foot six like a foot more than you are?
01:07:40:08 - 01:07:52:16
Speaker 4
Well, you need to take a step forward and giving rope with your with your arms and you need to give enough for that person to clip easily to climb even larger.
01:07:53:01 - 01:07:53:18
Speaker 2
Oh, my gosh.
01:07:53:18 - 01:08:02:01
Speaker 3
It is John James. Yeah, I really hope that one makes it in the other side.
01:08:02:01 - 01:08:03:09
Speaker 2
I'm happy. I'm the one editing the.
01:08:03:09 - 01:08:07:23
Speaker 3
Episode thought that it.
01:08:07:23 - 01:08:13:05
Speaker 2
Are you climbing with LeBron James? That's what I was about to say. It was a joke and I totally botched it.
01:08:13:05 - 01:08:16:04
Speaker 3
But the 66 climbers, though. Yeah. No but in general.
01:08:16:12 - 01:08:37:23
Speaker 1
I really do get what you're saying. I think there is this kind of idea. We've talked about this, you know, with with with Cody Bradford. We did an entire episode on on bullying. And bullying in itself is just such an interesting art. And being a team player, it's a very, very active role that I think nowadays can be viewed very passively and it isn't passive at all.
01:08:38:06 - 01:09:01:21
Speaker 1
And there is a lot of, for sure, psychology that goes into that. I'm wondering once again, I hope you don't mind me asking, but it's a pretty personal conversation. So when you were coming out of the accident and you're dealing with PTSD and stuff, did you seek like, like mental health, professional health? Is there anything like that that you sought out?
01:09:01:22 - 01:09:05:08
Speaker 1
Is this something that you dealt with on your own? I'm just wondering if you would speak to that a little bit.
01:09:06:07 - 01:09:35:00
Speaker 4
Uh, Alpha, now I seek, uh, I went for a professional like a psychologist and to help me out. But what I didn't like is most of them, they were like, they felt pain for me or they. Too much compassion. I don't know how to, to, to phrase it properly, but, you know, I was looking for a professional to help me.
01:09:35:10 - 01:09:41:09
Speaker 4
I wasn't looking for someone to to tell me how.
01:09:41:12 - 01:09:45:13
Speaker 2
You were looking for professional advice, not someone to feel bad for, you.
01:09:45:23 - 01:10:24:01
Speaker 4
Know? Exactly. And so, yeah, I see. I seek help on that way, but maybe not as much as I should have, you know, taken. But doing sports really helped me be it climbing or I'm also a, you know, running and backpacking so that really helped me because it just freed my mind for whatever was happening in there. So that that really helped me.
01:10:24:01 - 01:10:35:05
Speaker 4
Just having an hour going, running every morning, it's like a reset every morning. And then when I go climbing, it's another reset in the in the afternoon when I go there.
01:10:36:18 - 01:10:57:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think what you were saying there with having someone giving you too much compassion, you know, I don't want to put any words in your mouth, but for myself, I really struggle with dealing with a sometimes compassion or be like recognition, like I don't even like my own birthday, you know, like being the center of attention or recognized or something.
01:10:57:19 - 01:11:19:00
Speaker 1
It's something that makes me uncomfortable. I don't I don't enjoy it. And then I could think of the same thing. If there's a situation where, you know, in your example and I'm projecting what I think of it, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but what I think of is where, you know, from your own description, you almost had this sense of, you know, I deserved to feel pain and I deserve to feel horrible.
01:11:19:00 - 01:11:41:20
Speaker 1
And, you know, I need to tone, you know, for this and like, why? Why am I alive? And you're contemplating all this? Yeah. Having someone empathizing and feeling sympathetic to you is kind of like validate, knowing your pain and your feeling that you deserve the pain that you're feeling. So it's almost like not helping in a sense, if that makes sense, or at least can feel like it's not helping, you know?
01:11:41:20 - 01:12:00:19
Speaker 1
And I think that that's something that's interesting for certain people where, yeah, it's just sometimes sometimes being validated or having somebody be sympathetic towards you really isn't what people actually want. Maybe it's the right cause for some people, but sometimes it's really not. It's really not helpful. Which is very interesting.
01:12:01:13 - 01:12:31:09
Speaker 4
Or maybe I was just looking for solutions and like that. That person, you know, tells me, Look, this is what's happening right now. You need to do this and that. And you know, in three weeks you're going to be fine, but it's not. So maybe that that's also why I it didn't clicked but you know not be not not going to to a professional life like that.
01:12:33:08 - 01:13:05:16
Speaker 4
I have to say that my everybody around me was really present and there. So maybe that counterbalance So, you know I have a girlfriend my my kids are are around. I have friends and family and and that I can talk to and they know what I've been going through and they are and I can be transparent about about it and talk to them about about anything.
01:13:05:16 - 01:13:21:23
Speaker 4
So there's that though maybe they didn't seek professionals as much as much as I should, but there's a lot of in my entourage to to help me out so that yeah.
01:13:22:07 - 01:13:27:00
Speaker 2
That I think that's super important. I think that a lot of people might not have that same situation.
01:13:27:08 - 01:13:31:05
Speaker 4
Yeah I was lucky for that. Really. I'm still I'm lucky for that.
01:13:31:15 - 01:13:54:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I think Kyle and I have touched on something similar to that when we were talking about from a traumatic injury coming out of surgery. It's really important to know who your support group is and to have that support group. And what I was saying earlier about the compassion was not an aversion to mental health. You know, I have clinical psychologist before I implore anybody you're struggling with something, go get clinical help.
01:13:54:04 - 01:14:19:07
Speaker 1
Go seek a professional. Absolutely. It's very important that we deal with professionals and deal with mental health. But that just doesn't always 100% work for everybody. Right. And there are other ways of finding people and support who can help you. So obviously, I'm not a professional. I'm not trying to, you know, give like advice in that sense, but really just explain what has worked for me in my life or my thoughts on on certain subjects.
01:14:19:07 - 01:14:37:17
Speaker 1
And and I think just knowing that support group and having a support group is so important. Right. And that can that can look like many different things, you know, and many different ways. Like I know for me there's this physio that I see regularly. Mitch Golden Eagles Physio shout out to Mitch. He's a great guy.
01:14:37:17 - 01:14:37:23
Speaker 3
But.
01:14:38:08 - 01:14:54:16
Speaker 1
You know, and like, I'll just get my arms with him for like an hour. But I also like confide in him and talk with him and it's is very like therapeutic experience. And I talk about my life and my body and other things. So it's, it, it for me transcends beyond just being like, Oh, I'm just going to a physiotherapist.
01:14:54:16 - 01:15:17:08
Speaker 1
It's like, no, actually, like I mentally and psychologically get a lot out of him and he's helped me through some serious injuries. So he's kind of this figure of like comfort and support in my life. So I think you can just get you can. It requires a whole lot of different people and different types of support to obviously deal with very, very hard situations that so many people deal with.
01:15:17:08 - 01:15:17:15
Speaker 1
Right.
01:15:18:03 - 01:16:15:01
Speaker 4
Yeah. And when you know, when something really bad happened like, like in an accident with with causalities is maybe go to a professional at first because that person is out of the of the situation. So they're new, they're neutral. If you're going to your your friends or family, your girlfriend boyfriend at first, they're so involved in what's happening right now that I mean, talk to them, but maybe they are not the best one to seek advice because they are so, so close to you that, yeah, I think going forward to to going to to see someone neutral in in the first in the first place might be a good idea actually.
01:16:15:19 - 01:16:22:22
Speaker 1
Absolutely. I think additionally something to do to be aware of you know I talked about this with river in in a different way but.
01:16:24:15 - 01:16:25:19
Speaker 3
The it.
01:16:25:19 - 01:16:49:03
Speaker 1
Affects so much more than just you or just the person who passed away. You know like obviously we're speaking from point of view. It's like if you're going through that and you're trying to work through that with your lover or your partner, it's not like they're unaffected. There's like some magical forcefield that that person isn't like. That person is also going through this extreme and traumatic situation, and they don't know how to navigate that.
01:16:49:03 - 01:17:07:11
Speaker 1
And the more you're trying to to deal with them, the more they're also just kind of innately like taking on through like osmosis, you know, of like stress and trauma and situation. So I think definitely people need to to seek professional help in in pretty extraordinary situations, right?
01:17:07:11 - 01:17:36:19
Speaker 4
Yeah, because that that could be bad actually, for, you know, your loved one. If, like you said, they want to help so much that they take on their back. Also, a part of of your of the situation of your issues of your pain and that person needs to unload it as well somewhere. So it's you need to to keep a balance there.
01:17:37:10 - 01:17:49:18
Speaker 4
Yeah I don't know how to to to phrase it properly but yeah I mean it cannot rely only on one person.
01:17:49:18 - 01:17:50:06
Speaker 3
Just you're.
01:17:50:17 - 01:17:51:17
Speaker 4
On their back, you know.
01:17:52:21 - 01:17:54:08
Speaker 3
So what is.
01:17:54:11 - 01:18:04:03
Speaker 1
What is climbing nowadays. Like, you know, I it's particularly you said you connected climbing with your son. Do you climb do you have a daughter as well? Is that true?
01:18:04:16 - 01:18:05:10
Speaker 4
Yeah, exactly.
01:18:05:12 - 01:18:10:03
Speaker 1
And so does she. Does she climb with you at all or is this something particularly that you just share with your son?
01:18:11:07 - 01:18:13:10
Speaker 4
That's something I share with with my son.
01:18:13:15 - 01:18:14:22
Speaker 3
Okay. And so.
01:18:15:05 - 01:18:34:10
Speaker 1
So how is that How is how is climbing today going for you? You know, how are you connecting with your son through that? And also, you know, we've kind of explained how you being and going through this situation. You know, how are you doing in the present and and how how are you still dealing with these issues, if that makes sense.
01:18:34:10 - 01:18:37:02
Speaker 1
Sorry, it's a large question, but hopefully that makes sense now.
01:18:37:02 - 01:19:06:04
Speaker 4
That's why. Well, now my son doesn't climb as much as he used to. He's older now. I think he likes, you know, other activities as well. So we climb, I don't know, maybe once a week or once every other week. Uh, he got some climbing class, though, in, in high school. So that's. That's nice too. Is climbing as well.
01:19:06:12 - 01:19:37:12
Speaker 4
That's on the, on, on his side. Uh, but the best part is that relationship, that bond with my son in particular, because we were talking about climbing when. He was a teenager. That's the best thing. And I highly if your kids like to climb, keep climbing at if you can do it through their teenage years, you know the worst years, but you get something to bond with them, just do it.
01:19:37:16 - 01:20:09:00
Speaker 4
I mean, it's so much it's it kept a good relationship between us. Even when he was going to a rough times when he was a teenager. And now that he's older, well, we still have a good a good relationship. And I think in part it's because, you know, on Saturday morning we were climbing and all things aside, we just had fun on on Saturday morning.
01:20:09:20 - 01:20:21:05
Speaker 4
So it was quality time with with him so that that's for him on or you asking also like personally yeah.
01:20:21:11 - 01:20:39:06
Speaker 1
For you kind of more in the present like how you know like what what is climbing mean to you. How are you climbing, How are you dealing with PTSD? Because we've kind of gone through like how it's affected you and built up and so now I'm kind of wondering, how are you doing now in the present? What does climbing look like for you?
01:20:40:05 - 01:21:13:13
Speaker 4
Uh, now more than a decade after the the accident, PTSD is almost all gone right now. I went in a cross-country ski trip last weekend and going away from home, what used to be anxiety to to to to is its highest was just fine. Even if it was if it was winter winter camping. And I didn't do any of that before.
01:21:13:13 - 01:21:38:02
Speaker 4
And it went super well and I was in the parade and there really liked it. So that part is really yeah, most of the PTSD is gone now. So and actually that's why I also I wanted to share it with you too, to show people that you can overcome it. Yeah, it can take, take time, but it can, it can be overcome.
01:21:38:16 - 01:22:06:23
Speaker 4
And yes, for climbing, I climb a lot still. I climb like it's in the winter. So I climb to most of the time three times a week. Uh, I do also as well some training at home. I work from home, so my breaks are training, climbing. I take like 20 minutes and do some exercise there in the summer.
01:22:07:06 - 01:22:07:15
Speaker 4
Sorry.
01:22:08:02 - 01:22:13:09
Speaker 3
I said nice. That's awesome. It sounds great. Yeah.
01:22:13:09 - 01:22:39:09
Speaker 4
And. And in the summer, I. I tried to keep a balance between family work and climbing. So climbing outside takes a whole day, usually. So I'm climbing, like, outside every other week in the summer when I. When I can. Um, so I climb, I climb a lot. I it takes a lot of time.
01:22:40:20 - 01:22:41:21
Speaker 3
I think in.
01:22:41:22 - 01:22:46:22
Speaker 1
Our correspondence you said you were projecting like a 12 A in the gym. How did that go for you?
01:22:46:22 - 01:22:47:15
Speaker 3
What?
01:22:48:06 - 01:22:50:11
Speaker 4
Uh, I choked, actually.
01:22:50:14 - 01:22:55:13
Speaker 3
It said I planned it on last Friday.
01:22:56:01 - 01:23:30:11
Speaker 4
Uh, no, not last Friday. Last Thursday. And I looked at it and was like, uh, I'm going skiing this weekend. I won't, I won't push my luck on that one. Uh, so I didn't try it last last week, but I try it again today then I didn't. Slash did and you know, for. Yeah, climb to call a climb completed, I need to flash it and in one stretch that's a right where right.
01:23:30:11 - 01:23:46:15
Speaker 2
I'm pretty sure you only have one option to flash something. There's only one opportunity to flash a project when you know the moves, you know the beta, but you've never climbed it before and you do it the first try.
01:23:46:20 - 01:23:51:21
Speaker 4
Okay, So how do you say to climb it can climb it in one one take.
01:23:52:07 - 01:23:53:08
Speaker 2
That's a red point.
01:23:53:09 - 01:23:53:16
Speaker 1
Yeah.
01:23:53:21 - 01:23:55:13
Speaker 4
Okay. Okay.
01:23:56:18 - 01:24:00:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, why not? Red point 12. So you got me be there. Well, that's good. That's all. Yeah.
01:24:01:04 - 01:24:08:14
Speaker 2
If it's in the gym, it's probably a pink point, which means that the quick draws are already attached to the wall.
01:24:08:18 - 01:24:10:11
Speaker 4
You're right. Yeah. We're getting.
01:24:10:11 - 01:24:10:18
Speaker 3
Super.
01:24:10:18 - 01:24:11:12
Speaker 1
Technical here.
01:24:11:15 - 01:24:12:14
Speaker 3
That would be a pink.
01:24:13:03 - 01:24:14:09
Speaker 2
I would be a pink point.
01:24:14:18 - 01:24:53:14
Speaker 4
Okay. Yeah. So as I'm trying to so to say it and to say a claim is complete, I need to pink point or red pointed. Yeah. I rarely flash never flash. It's will be a flash some 11 B.C but nothing in the 12. Yes. And what I really like about your podcast is it's it's for everyone and not just like professional and that's something I really like to hear people that are just regular people are like me.
01:24:53:14 - 01:25:00:00
Speaker 4
That train are really too much for. The level they're climbing.
01:25:00:00 - 01:25:04:12
Speaker 3
I feel the exact same way. Yeah, we're on the same boat. They're like watching.
01:25:04:12 - 01:25:07:08
Speaker 1
Pros. I'm like, I feel like I put as much effort in, but you're.
01:25:07:08 - 01:25:13:21
Speaker 3
Like, I'm 30 letter grades ahead of me. You know, it's. Yeah, exactly. So but I think that's that's kind of part.
01:25:13:21 - 01:25:39:19
Speaker 1
Of the point. Like, I really appreciate you saying that. I think that is part of the point. It almost ties into what you were saying earlier about the suffering. It's like we're we're each on our own journey. You can't necessarily compare things to everybody on some level. Like Kyle said, you can These distinctions, of course, and not everything is equal, but but ultimately, it is one of those things that, you know, you know, me trying to on-site ten.
01:25:39:19 - 01:26:01:05
Speaker 1
C ten D Trad Yeah, I'm probably trying hypothetically just as hard as some pro who goes in on sites of 14. A The difference is just our physical and ability is just very different, but the actual level of fear or try hard might be something comparable, right? And so it's not really to diminish those things. I don't think it's less exciting.
01:26:01:05 - 01:26:24:05
Speaker 1
And and in general, you know, being a part of this majority, as Kyle and I have just discovered, there is just an infinite amount of people out there like you, like the guests that we communicate with who just have really powerful, really cool, really amazing stories. And I walk away learning something new every single time and feeling great about these conversations.
01:26:24:05 - 01:26:29:05
Speaker 1
And and I think other people are getting getting that out of it as well, too. So I think it's something really special.
01:26:29:21 - 01:26:50:01
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah. It's just you can't be the best one and everything or, you know, you know, you just do your best and you train, you try, you fail and you do it again. And that's the fun of it. And it's just not it's not about the a letter or a number.
01:26:50:08 - 01:27:21:14
Speaker 2
And I think that we as climbers have a unique ecosystem because, I mean, I could be completely biased here, but you can be a58 climber and have started six months ago and almost die and be like on the edge and learning trad and, you know, have this existential multi pitch day where as other sports it's just you can't get to that level across the playing field.
01:27:21:22 - 01:27:23:02
Speaker 4
Yeah yeah.
01:27:23:19 - 01:27:43:23
Speaker 1
I think the comparison to sports is great because what I was just thinking on that is two things. One, it's, you know what Adam Campbell said, which is like it's like suffering in beautiful places. And then that made me thought of is is climbing actually a sport, you know, like we call it a sport. Of course, there's certain subdisciplines, like if you're climbing in a gym.
01:27:43:23 - 01:27:53:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, I would say when you're doing that gym climbing, it's a sport. But when you're climbing like trout outside or multi pitching outside, it's more like having fun while surviving.
01:27:53:10 - 01:27:58:03
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah. You know, it it is a you know, and your is.
01:27:58:03 - 01:28:02:12
Speaker 1
Tennis and I think it's a great example like you don't show up to the tennis court wondering, am I going to die.
01:28:02:15 - 01:28:03:19
Speaker 2
Or whether you're going to die.
01:28:03:19 - 01:28:06:02
Speaker 3
You know, it's not that what crosses your mind.
01:28:06:02 - 01:28:28:12
Speaker 1
And that's not to glorify climbing because it's like, Oh, it's hardcore or something. But it that in the combination of being in harmony with nature in the outdoors, it does provide unbelievably profound experiences that I don't I don't even think you should call it a sport. I don't think it's a sport, you know, like you don't just like walk out on the hockey rink and explode or like the roof falls in and you die.
01:28:28:12 - 01:28:29:05
Speaker 1
You know, it's like.
01:28:29:08 - 01:28:30:23
Speaker 3
Like people would probably.
01:28:30:23 - 01:28:43:17
Speaker 1
Not call hockey a sport either if that happened, like, regularly. And yet it does in climate, you know, people die all the time. So it is something interesting. I think we're we're getting pretty close to wrapping up here. I don't know how you guys are feeling.
01:28:44:16 - 01:28:47:00
Speaker 4
Yeah. Looks looks like it.
01:28:47:00 - 01:28:59:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think I think it's been it's been it's been a really good place where the conversation is going. So I guess I hope it's not too corny or anything, but I guess what I would say, Ben, is like, do you like.
01:28:59:17 - 01:29:03:09
Speaker 3
It seems it seems like a loaded question, but do you have any what would you.
01:29:03:09 - 01:29:12:18
Speaker 1
Say to somebody who is, you know, maybe in a dark place or who does have PTSD and they're struggling, You know, what is kind of like a lingering message? You'd want to leave them.
01:29:14:20 - 01:29:42:11
Speaker 4
If you're really in a dark place, like really, really low, go seek help, really put your ego aside. You don't need an ego for for your ego. One do no good. Just go and seek some help to first. Yeah, just a little bit of a fix so you can get to the next day if you're really low. That's that.
01:29:42:11 - 01:30:08:13
Speaker 4
That would be my first advice. Seek help, whatever to help is. And that's going to be really corny. But don't do drugs. It won't help you. It will just that's the problem. And when the the drug effect goes away, your problem is still there. So address the address. The issue address is a problem. Instead of putting something over it, then, you know, hope for the best.
01:30:08:13 - 01:30:37:08
Speaker 4
It won't. So yeah, go seek help even if it's even if you have like, no money, no resources, Just go take a book. Just do something to do some meditation, you know, or learn to relax. And I think that that will help. Yeah, that that would be my first advice that some someone that is having a really hard time.
01:30:38:07 - 01:31:21:18
Speaker 4
You're not alone. You we always think it's the the worst thing that could happen but you're not alone. It might be super bad, but there's, there's other other people around you that, that that can help you and you know, there's a lot of people also that don't talk about their dark dark that the dark side but what they went through but everybody a sorry you know everybody went through something that that could help you know, with social media everything seems like lullabies and great and everything.
01:31:22:07 - 01:32:03:15
Speaker 4
But on the other side people how I'll have struggles and they need help now maybe it's your turn. So go seek some help and, you know, talk to someone. Find someone to to talk. Yeah.