The Climbing Majority

34 | Don't Fall, Don't Fall, Don't Hit The Ground w/ IFMGA Dale Remsberg

February 27, 2023 Kyle Broxterman & Max Carrier Episode 34
The Climbing Majority
34 | Don't Fall, Don't Fall, Don't Hit The Ground w/ IFMGA Dale Remsberg
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

As we are sure most of you know accidents happen to the best of us and when you spend enough time in places with severe hazards it's not a question of if, but when. Nevertheless, it is easy to get complacent, and comfortable and that's when things go wrong.  Today, we sit down with IFMGA certified mountain guide Dale Remsberg. We connected with Dale after hearing about an accident he had while leading ice that almost took his life.

With some luck and a badass mentality he was back top-roping ice only 10 days later, which is pretty ridiculous our my opinion. Dale doesn't ruminate on his mistakes; he learns from them and shares them with the community so others can learn too. He spends 100 days a year guiding and also enjoys training new mountain guides. In our conversation, we get to hear Dale’s story about his childhood, how he found climbing, and what events led up to his accident.  Dale also shares with us the importance of mentorship and what he's doing in the community to provide this critical piece of climbing to others. 

Finally, we talk about the myth of safety in climbing, because as controversial as it might sound….climbing simply isn't safe. Maybe that's why we like it so much?

Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.

Contact us:
IG:
@the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com


00:00:00:13 - 00:00:22:03
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast. For Talent, I sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides, recreational climbers like to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber. If you haven't already, please subscribe rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:26:02 - 00:00:45:08
Speaker 1
Hi everyone, Max here and welcome back to yet another episode of the Climbing Majority podcast. As I'm sure most of you know, accidents happen to the best of us. And when you spend enough time in places with severe hazards, it's not a question of if, but when. Nevertheless, it is easy to get complacent and comfortable, and that's when things go wrong.

00:00:46:08 - 00:01:07:01
Speaker 1
Today we sit down with FMG, a certified mountain guide. Dale Remsburg. I connected with Dale after hearing about an accident he had while leading ice that almost took his life with some luck and a badass mentality. He was back to top bogeying ice only ten days later, which is pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Dale doesn't ruminate on his mistakes.

00:01:07:11 - 00:01:31:09
Speaker 1
He learns from them and shares them with the community so others can learn too. He spends 100 days a year guiding and also enjoys training new mountain guides. In our conversation, we get to hear Dale story about his childhood, how he found climbing, and what events led up to his accident. Dale also shares with us the importance of mentorship and what he's doing in the community to provide this critical piece of climbing to others.

00:01:31:21 - 00:01:48:16
Speaker 1
Finally, we talk about the myth of safety and climbing, because as controversial as it might sound, climbing simply isn't safe. Maybe that's why we like it so much.

00:01:51:09 - 00:01:53:19
Speaker 1
Do we have it down? Did it happen already?

00:01:54:03 - 00:01:55:02
Speaker 2
Oh, it happened already.

00:01:55:07 - 00:02:07:21
Speaker 1
Okay, sweet. All right, well, we don't need a big introduction because we'll give you a nice introduction in the beginning. But, you know, we're sitting down here with Dale Remsburg. And. Dale, How's it going? Help us pronounce your last name correctly.

00:02:08:18 - 00:02:17:19
Speaker 3
You got it? Very German. These are doing great busy work week, but it's nice to be just chillin at home and sipping a glass of wine and talking to you, too.

00:02:18:16 - 00:02:24:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, honestly, really stoked that we connected. And we got you here today. And you were. You were just at your age, right?

00:02:26:04 - 00:02:46:23
Speaker 3
Yeah, I was down in your way for three weeks of guiding and representing my sponsors at ICE Based and just generally having a good time. And there are lots of hot springs and it was a super snowy race season. We got gosh, 3 to 4 feet of snow while I was there. So it was a very one and very, very sorry, very nice.

00:02:48:03 - 00:03:05:02
Speaker 1
I honestly just find it comical that that was work, you know, like not diminishing it anyway. It's just like I'm like, wow, You know, it sounds really great going to Europe with Dale for three weeks. And, you know, just to clarify, but it sounds pretty awesome to me, man. That's that's really cool. So it's probably.

00:03:05:02 - 00:03:17:18
Speaker 3
Something we should dig into in the interview later on is just like the perception that, you know, mountain guides and social climbers just have it all, you know, all good. But there's a lot of behind the scenes stress that goes with it so that we can fun and chat about.

00:03:18:13 - 00:03:28:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm hoping to get into it. You can you can abolish my fantasy of how how nice that trip was for you. Maybe a little happy.

00:03:28:15 - 00:03:32:22
Speaker 2
Did you did you stay at the beach? Pardon? As recommended by Chris Clews?

00:03:34:01 - 00:03:48:11
Speaker 3
I did not, but I have stayed there before. It's a little out of my price range, but it's not. It's a it's a nice spot to hit. Most of my hot spring nights were down at Orvis Hot Springs in Ridgeway. Okay, Clothing optional where, by the way.

00:03:49:23 - 00:03:50:09
Speaker 2
Nice.

00:03:50:20 - 00:03:52:01
Speaker 1
Sounds pretty nice. You know.

00:03:53:11 - 00:03:54:05
Speaker 4
I feel like I haven't.

00:03:54:05 - 00:04:16:00
Speaker 1
Really been to an actual good hot spring in my life. I recently was just at the Lilywhite Ice Festival. Obviously a different production than something like your A, but it was really, really phenomenal experience. I've never been to an ice fest before, really great community vibe. People put that on. It was really, really amazing. I just we just slept out of our car, you know, for like four days and just lived in the back there.

00:04:16:00 - 00:04:24:08
Speaker 1
That was pretty, pretty chill and a little it was nice. So that was pretty awesome. But I'm definitely planning on making it to your in the next couple of years, hopefully with Kyle too. That would be really fun actually.

00:04:24:18 - 00:04:25:08
Speaker 2
Oh yeah.

00:04:25:08 - 00:04:30:07
Speaker 3
Yeah. That's part of the process of speaking of little. Well, that's where I come in. Vice climbing back in the day.

00:04:30:18 - 00:04:35:06
Speaker 1
Really? So are you. Yeah. You're Canadian that Are you born in the U.S.? What's?

00:04:35:09 - 00:04:47:13
Speaker 3
Well, I was born in Washington State and I grew up in a little town called Libra. But when I lived in Seattle, I was the closest world class ice that we had. So I was up there every weekend for years.

00:04:48:05 - 00:05:07:06
Speaker 1
Wild man. Yeah. I mean this perfectly Segways into what we have here. So, you know, why don't you know, why don't you just rewind a little bit more than that? We like to kind of really get to know our guests and their history and kind of build into what led them into climbing. And so, you know, Yeah, where did you grow up?

00:05:07:06 - 00:05:10:23
Speaker 1
What was your early life like? Why don't we start there the beginning.

00:05:11:05 - 00:05:38:01
Speaker 3
And now It sounds good. Yeah. I grew up in Washington State, a little town called Winthrop, Washington, which is actually, in retrospect, looking back like it couldn't have been a more perfect place to grow up as somebody that became a skier and a climber. You know, it's right at the foothills on the east side of the mountains there in the Cascades, a place called Washington Pass, which is world class, Alpine, craggy and amazing backcountry skiing and just the whole deal.

00:05:38:02 - 00:06:07:21
Speaker 3
I grew up, you know, fairly privileged, but not from a monetary standpoint, just from a you know, where I grew up standpoint, I was able to come home from school and just go swimming and go fishing and just like, just kind of like roam free in the mountains, so to speak. And my dad worked in construction and, you know, I basically owe everything to him where he basically taught me how to do dangerous things safely.

00:06:08:18 - 00:06:35:04
Speaker 3
So he, you know, he encouraged me to to take chances, take risks, do the things, but just like carefully. And so that's a pretty unique way to grow up that I think made a lot kids out of you anymore. At least, you know you know certainly kids and but you know, grow up in urban environments or cities. But I was encouraged to, you know, grab the fishing pole and go catch fish for dinner and, you know, just make sure I'm home before dark and that sort of thing.

00:06:35:04 - 00:06:40:08
Speaker 3
Just go for it. And that kind of sense of adventure has just stuck with me my entire life.

00:06:41:08 - 00:07:11:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. I was recently talking with a friend about this where I think it's really easy to overlook that being simply just, Oh, you had an adventurous childhood. This I think a lot of those things, it doesn't necessarily have to be that involved, but are really fundamental to humans developing well and, you know, having a sense of like if you would go based on evolution, you know, it's been the, you know, the drop of water in a bucket or whatever, that we've actually been having these, you know, integrated lives of technology and everything.

00:07:11:13 - 00:07:32:05
Speaker 1
Like we evolved to be outside and to be, you know, wrestling and engaging and communicating and taking risks and climbing and all of these things. And I think it's actually fundamental to human development in some capacity. And it's something that's just so overlooked nowadays where, you know, I walk down the street and you just see people crossing the street staring at smartphones.

00:07:32:05 - 00:07:43:17
Speaker 1
You know, not looking either way when a car is coming. And it's it's a little bewildering, you know, the difference of even what, 15 years ago growing up would have been, you know, maybe 25. We'll give it 25.

00:07:44:07 - 00:07:58:15
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's fascinating for sure. But I feel very lucky to have that that, you know, early childhood, you know, we had horses and, you know, a bunch of cats and dogs and just the whole thing, you know, I just got to live a wild life. It was awesome.

00:07:59:18 - 00:08:09:15
Speaker 2
Did did this kind of adventurous spirit and risk taking behavior ever lead down a path of any sort of trouble?

00:08:11:01 - 00:08:16:04
Speaker 3
Well, yes, for sure.

00:08:16:04 - 00:08:19:17
Speaker 2
It got me in the same boat as you there. So I'm just curious, you know?

00:08:19:17 - 00:08:20:03
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:08:20:14 - 00:08:45:05
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, I. I was fairly lucky that I did okay in school without really having to do any homework. I think I did a combined maybe 10 hours of homework in my entire, you know, childhood, you know, since I got out of high school. And I was just able to kind of winging it and, you know, A-minus and B-plus and that kind of stuff.

00:08:45:05 - 00:08:45:19
Speaker 3
Somehow I'm.

00:08:45:19 - 00:08:46:04
Speaker 1
Pretty good.

00:08:46:04 - 00:08:47:17
Speaker 4
And, you know, want to.

00:08:47:17 - 00:08:48:17
Speaker 1
See my report cards.

00:08:49:21 - 00:09:17:05
Speaker 3
That that give you a lot of free time to sort of push boundaries. And I definitely got myself in trouble. I had I had one of my good friends was native actually, Native American, and his name was Beyers. And we got in so much trouble together. His older brother Arlo, was kind of dabbled in the marijuana industry back way back in the day.

00:09:17:18 - 00:09:40:21
Speaker 3
And, and we like to steal some of his some of his goods and and, and we tried to sell it at the homecoming when we were sophomores in high school. And my my friend as she's a little bit spacey and he actually left the goods on the bus and we got to you know, we got totally found out.

00:09:41:11 - 00:10:00:23
Speaker 3
And that was a really good lesson. And it's actually a really cool lesson because my dad traveled for work and he would come home on weekends and I came home. I thought for sure I was going to be grounded forever, whatever. And, you know, he was really it was just a good idea what he did. Movies like, Hey, hey, got a part to sell me, You know, you kind of made it, you know?

00:10:00:23 - 00:10:01:03
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:10:02:08 - 00:10:28:01
Speaker 3
He made it fun. Yeah. And then, you know, then, of course, gave me the, you know, the start talking to, like, the, you know, how this debate ruined my life and all that sort of thing. So that's probably the worst trouble I got in in terms of the law, so to speak. But we pushed the boundaries with like building little bombs of firecrackers and taking our 20 twos out and shooting windows out of cars into Java, those kind of things.

00:10:28:11 - 00:10:30:10
Speaker 3
And so I'm lucky.

00:10:31:14 - 00:10:52:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, I just think it's so interesting, you know, that it seems to be a bit of a common thread, you know, like you said, pushing the boundaries that ring so true to, I mean, who I am to my core. I'm always about finding like where the limits are, where the boundaries are. And I, you know, for a while there, I did it in every aspect of my life and it did get me into some trouble.

00:10:52:12 - 00:11:16:23
Speaker 2
And so climbing when I found climbing, you know, way later in my life, it became that outlet to push the boundaries and feel that intensity in a more controlled and safe environment. So did you like did you kind of have that transfer to where you kind of like, you know, didn't know, You know, you're pushing boundaries in every aspect and then you found climbing and it kind of like focused it or did you start climbing early on?

00:11:17:18 - 00:11:38:01
Speaker 3
Well, I mean, it's a it's a pretty astute question. I'm sure you know the answer. But yeah, I mean, that's that's you know, that's exactly what happened is, you know, we were my my, my other good high school friend, his name was Tolley, and we his dad was very adventurous. We went backpacking and, you know, spent overnights in the mountains and all that sort of thing.

00:11:38:11 - 00:12:01:16
Speaker 3
And we saw some climbers up at Washington pass and we saw them with ropes and the equipment and kind of asked them some questions. And that from that moment on, even though I hadn't even climbed yet, I was all in you know, I just knew that this was what I had to do, like because they were going to the tops of these peaks that we didn't know how to get to.

00:12:02:03 - 00:12:26:06
Speaker 3
And yeah, that completely redirected might energy. And I focused you know we went by the freedom of the hills, we bought ropes, we saved up money to buy our first rock at camp. We just, we just, we studied and we did it on. And fortunately, his dad went out with us. That helped us learn the systems of Murray Crevasse rescue and how to do raising.

00:12:26:11 - 00:12:43:09
Speaker 3
So we just I mean, from that point forward, literally from like ah, spring semester when I was a senior in high school, we saw that from that point forward. I've been all in and climbing ever since. It just like it did. It changed my life. Yeah.

00:12:44:02 - 00:13:14:23
Speaker 1
I found climbing a little later, but you know, I've a similar experience where kind of was into hiking, you know, always been rebellious in nature, don't like, you know, aversion to authority, all that kind of stuff. And yeah, I'm already in the outdoors. And then you see somebody or you have the opportunity to go out and climb something in your this is just the rad as possible version of what I was already doing, you know, And it like provides a sense of freedom and you make the rules and it's empowering when you accomplish the things.

00:13:14:23 - 00:13:36:15
Speaker 1
And if the incredibly dedicated well, you don't have to be. But generally, I mean, there's high level of competency and skills and fitness and, you know, risk analysis, all these things that go into it, that it's just so all encompassing. It's you can put your whole life and being into it, it's I don't know, it's kind of weird calling climbing a sport.

00:13:36:16 - 00:13:57:00
Speaker 1
Obviously there's so many subdivisions, but in some in some aspects, like I wouldn't say your life of climbing, not that I know enough about it yet, but we'll find out more. But like it doesn't characterize a sport. You know what what sport? You go out and risk death or, you know, dying on a continuous basis or have this kind of risk aversion or that, I don't know.

00:13:57:00 - 00:14:00:01
Speaker 1
It seems it seems different to me at least.

00:14:00:05 - 00:14:25:07
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think it's a and this this is something that it's probably worth sharing. But I one of the things that redirected my energy before I found climbing in high school was golf. I got on high school golf to and to me, golf and climbing are exactly the same. The only difference is that that the the only difference is the risk.

00:14:25:19 - 00:14:58:12
Speaker 3
But they're both games and they're both require a ton of athleticism, analytics, strategy tools, tinkering with your gear, all the things. The only difference is generally speaking, unless you're like playing golf in Florida where there's no way even out haters, there's there's not a lot of risk. And so for me, you know, I was all in and golf in high school and the team I went to state and played well and in when I found climbing golf was done.

00:14:58:18 - 00:15:22:04
Speaker 3
Interestingly enough, later on in life, I actually picked up golf again through some guiding buddies here in Boulder, Colorado, and actually got fully into it again to the point where I was a scratch golfer, had a concussion, was shooting below par, and all the CS competing. And I actually think it's been six or seven years ago I decided to just kind of quit cold turkey because it was starting to actually backtrack long enough where I didn't have enough time for both games.

00:15:22:11 - 00:15:23:06
Speaker 3
So I had to choose.

00:15:23:06 - 00:15:23:09
Speaker 4
And.

00:15:24:12 - 00:15:26:03
Speaker 3
I chose quality. Don't stop.

00:15:27:07 - 00:15:46:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I think. Yeah, but no, that's that's really interesting to hear you make those comparisons. It's definitely a first for me, but it made a sense in the way you're explaining that. Okay, so you know, you've grown up in this kind of what I would call amazing environment, you know, this freedom, this exploration. You're getting into climbing.

00:15:47:11 - 00:15:58:13
Speaker 1
You know, what type of climbing did you get into first where you were, you a skier and then ice climber or rock climber? How did that kind of trajectory and path go for you?

00:15:58:13 - 00:16:16:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, well, I mean, I grew up skiing. Fortunately, I grew up where there was a ski hall where the, you know, the annual price of lift tickets was 100 bucks. And I had access to a little ski school and, you know, good friends over Ranchos. I grew up skiing since I was in, I think, fourth or fifth grade.

00:16:16:06 - 00:16:39:22
Speaker 3
So that was kind of part of the, you know, the adventure. But when I got into climbing, my buddy Tony and I, we we were going after the Cascade Volcanoes, you know, Rainier or bigger. We wanted to climb put in all those things. And that was the main goal, was going after the big peaks. You know, we had aspirations to go to Denali early.

00:16:39:23 - 00:17:03:16
Speaker 3
I thought for sure I'd go to Everest someday and all those kind of things. But then we kind of started tinkering with more technical climbing up a Washington path. And actually our first climb was in Washington, passed. We got way in over our head, but I was more attracted to the the kind of more intricate problem solving in a rock climbing and alpine more climbing than I was the mountain stuff.

00:17:03:16 - 00:17:26:14
Speaker 3
So I, I basically pursued all the, you know, all the disciplines, you know, backcountry ski, rock climbing, mountaineering, Alpine is all of the things and kind of combined it all. But I would say my, my true passion, if somebody asked me like if, you know, if if you could only choose one style of climbing for the rest of your life, it would definitely be kind of higher in rock climbing.

00:17:26:14 - 00:17:48:02
Speaker 3
Was this we're climbing at this point because just so and so fine, it's relatively safe, you know, compared to, you know, high end Alpine is around here and that sort of thing. But I've gone through all the phases all these days, but I never did become like my high altitude specialist. I've never been to, you know, the greater ranges other than Alaska or South America.

00:17:48:03 - 00:18:04:00
Speaker 3
So I'm sure a of time in the ranges, you know, but I've never been to Nepal and never been with hear a calm and who knows why it is although those you know those places early in my career you know those were dream place but I definitely wanted to go but it just never it never went.

00:18:04:00 - 00:18:26:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think they seem stylistically incredibly different endeavors. Right. And then I think to actually do a technical more technical climb in any of those ranges requires like mega consistency in going out there and understanding them and getting your body at altitude and stuff a lot more. So yeah, I've talked to other guides who just have no interest in doing that.

00:18:26:01 - 00:18:44:20
Speaker 1
Like what? I want to go get sick for a month and slog of a mountain and crap in a bag. Yeah, I don't know. So it's kind of fun. I do have some interesting aspirations with. I mean, I would think that trying an 8000 meter peak would seem really interesting, but I don't want to do it with oxygen and I don't think I'm fit enough to do it without oxygen.

00:18:44:21 - 00:18:56:16
Speaker 1
I don't know if I ever would be if I would dedicate enough time or even even genetically, I could physiologically try something like that. So seems like a big pipe dream with not a lot of effort moving in the trajectory. But, you know.

00:18:56:16 - 00:19:09:06
Speaker 3
I'm sure you would be fine. You just got to put it, you know, set your mind to it. But I was just attracted to the big grand walls of Squamish and, you know, the big granite walls of Yosemite. And those kind of things were just more, more interesting to me. I could see the lines.

00:19:09:19 - 00:19:33:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, I'm I'm with you on that. I lean much more towards technical aspect of climbing. I love the the problem solving and the movement and the connection of my body to the rock and the puzzle and the trad gear like that. Part of climbing is what makes me super obsessed about it. So that's cool to hear that, you know, you have that same mentality.

00:19:34:10 - 00:20:03:03
Speaker 2
My question here is, so you spoke a little bit about a mentor, which I believe was either your friend's father or your own when it came to actually learning, you know, climbing. You know, one of the questions we ask here on this podcast is kind of like what that mentorship looked like because, you know, we've interviewed a lot of people and we've seen the full gamut of, you know, people who have had a mentor during the, you know, the beginning stages of their climbing versus people who've had no mentors at all.

00:20:03:11 - 00:20:17:14
Speaker 2
And, you know, we just like to understand where you're at. Like, you know, if you had a mentor, how long in what capacity, and at what point did you really start to kind of take things under your own, your own accord?

00:20:17:14 - 00:20:37:23
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, initially our kind of mentor was Tony's dad, Tom. And but we you know, we quickly surpassed what his interests were. I mean, within just a couple of trips, I was that was enough for him. And, you know, we we started climbing when we were senior in high school, and we both moved to Seattle to go to college.

00:20:38:10 - 00:21:16:03
Speaker 3
And the bug was there. I mean, we didn't want to go to college. We just wanted to climb. And we both joined the Mountaineers Club in Seattle and took the basic climbing course, which was was fun, but it seemed very low level. So what we were looking for. But it was a good introduction to friends and people. The cool thing that happened was there was this this guy who's still a good friend of mine to this day, and he was Scott Stimson, and he had started up a water ice climbing program at the Mount years, and he was just stoked on water, ice climbing and ice climbing in general.

00:21:16:14 - 00:21:45:04
Speaker 3
And he became my main mentor early on. And, you know, he worked us through the systems and all the more advanced things that we needed to understand how to take these sayings. We did our first trips to to Banff and Ken Moore back then early nineties with him, and, you know, we quickly surpassed him as well. And it was, you know, it's probably after a couple of years with was Scott that you know I was the rock on at that point.

00:21:45:04 - 00:22:09:01
Speaker 3
You know I was you know I was I was younger and maybe bolder I'm not sure or maybe just more put, you know, more willing to take the risk. Who knows? But, you know, I ended up being the rope gun and we climbed for a few years beyond that. But then I just I started getting asked to do some guy work because I was working at the local climbing gym in Seattle.

00:22:09:14 - 00:22:35:13
Speaker 3
And just kind of one thing led to another at that point, you know, after three or four years of his mentorship, I was fully in it on my own, like I was teaching other people how to climb. And I was like, it's all, you know, every every day consisted of climbing somehow in my life when I was learning systems, training at the gym, going to the UW wall, well, you know, packing for Squamish, packing for Smith Rock.

00:22:35:13 - 00:22:54:21
Speaker 3
It was just, you know, it was a long where I was just like pushing the grades, like, you know, doing my first Bible, the Smith and then trying to do my first by 12 Smith and my first by 13 and Smith. And I was just obsessed. And so but I would say early on, the credit goes to Scott Stimson.

00:22:55:13 - 00:22:56:19
Speaker 2
That's awesome to hear, you.

00:22:56:19 - 00:23:23:20
Speaker 3
Know, And now it's kind of cool to kind of come full circle to. I feel like I really am trying to give back through mentorship and actually just got some funding from our tax is where my longest term sponsors to help us some more mentoring because I think that's the the crux these days is back then I think mentors were looking for people to believe them essentially, so they were willing to teach you some skills so that they had somebody that would go out with them and blade up.

00:23:24:03 - 00:23:47:17
Speaker 3
And now there's just so many climbers that are kind of in their little pods or their little cliques, you know, whatever you want to call them. It's hard for new climbers to break into a group that want to get out and push it. And so, you know, I think that's kind of my next level of interest right now is trying to give back to so people that just don't have the means to say, hire, guide, you know, can work expensive.

00:23:47:18 - 00:23:54:18
Speaker 3
You know, there's just no way around it. We're expensive. And so it's kind of cool that it's finally coming full circle.

00:23:55:04 - 00:24:19:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's really interesting. I think, you know, it's it seems like very kind, charitable. I'm missing I'm sure there's a better word to say it, but obviously, as someone who you do this as a job all the time, then to kind of give back and do it of your own volition, you know, without like a charge. Do you think it's something that you would try and do more as one on one or have like a larger outreach?

00:24:19:18 - 00:24:27:07
Speaker 1
Where are you trying to get like groups of people to be able to do this, to mentor them and to kind of get them entry into the community?

00:24:27:07 - 00:24:43:05
Speaker 3
Well, I mean, that's what we've been trying to do with my social media, which has been pretty successful, is just trying to share little tidbits of information to the masses. So that's kind of like the mass thing. And I definitely have a few people that I just mentor just because they've reached out to me and are looking for that.

00:24:43:09 - 00:25:03:13
Speaker 3
But I think with this new kind of initiative that our church is going to help me out with, I think I want to do like a yearly thing where it's like a group of six or eight people that we kind of work for a year and freeze in private groups and spend two or three days out in the field going over core skills and trying to figure out what they need.

00:25:03:13 - 00:25:05:11
Speaker 3
And then hopefully it all just a ball over time.

00:25:05:16 - 00:25:06:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, so.

00:25:06:04 - 00:25:22:22
Speaker 2
What exact, if you don't mind, if you're allowed to share, what exactly is Arc'teryx kind of supporting when it comes to like not one on one guiding ventures for people getting into climbing like wear, what does that kind of look like?

00:25:22:22 - 00:25:44:15
Speaker 3
Well, I mean, one of their core values is just to try and share the knowledge that guides have with the public. And so they're just literally were like willing to put their dollars now with that by giving guides better contracts with financial rewards, helping up all winter people. And, you know, they want to see a plan and they want to see some action.

00:25:44:15 - 00:25:53:15
Speaker 3
But it's very loose. It's not there's not a lot of strings attached. And so that opportunities presented itself to me and I really want to make something awesome.

00:25:53:15 - 00:25:56:11
Speaker 2
To hear that parents are starting to pick that up. Yeah.

00:25:57:03 - 00:26:03:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's that's really awesome. Yeah, that's super, super cool.

00:26:03:04 - 00:26:30:23
Speaker 2
Do you real quick on this. On this. No, I think that this kind of starts to lead into the topic of stewardship. And I know that I wouldn't say guides are necessarily labeled as stewards of the rock. They're more stewards of the people. Do you have any stance on whether brands should support stewards of the rock? And if so, who should those people be?

00:26:31:07 - 00:26:36:03
Speaker 3
Well, maybe the made a little clarification, but when you say stewards of the rock, you mean just keeping it. Yes.

00:26:36:03 - 00:26:59:21
Speaker 2
Or, you know, route maintenance, route development, track development, crab crag maintenance, because, you know, there was this boom of route development, especially in California and, you know, the West Coast and some of these routes now are getting old and some of the routes are bolts are getting sketchy and, you know, like there's rules about, you know, not using drilled bolts or drill like drills.

00:26:59:21 - 00:27:26:21
Speaker 2
You know, you have to hand bolts. Hardware is expensive and there's not really this entity that's behind kind of retro bolting these areas or maintain of these areas. You know, So like, I guess my question here is like, whose job is that? And do you feel like brands should start to try to like, support the people who are already taking care of these areas or find people to do so?

00:27:26:21 - 00:27:48:13
Speaker 3
Well, I think I think they are to some extent. I know a lot of the route developers and people are meeting the routes, which are, you know, oftentimes guides are getting that support from the company. So I think just through through, you know, just kind of organic support, they are now could kind of could the companies be more targeted with that?

00:27:49:06 - 00:28:10:06
Speaker 3
Was that stewardship and that meanness? For sure. And I think they will over time, because I think you're right. I mean, we're at a point in American climbing in the West where, you know, there's literally hundreds of thousands of bolts, if not millions, that need replaced and people are doing the work, but it's just not happening quick enough and people are getting hurt.

00:28:10:06 - 00:28:40:14
Speaker 3
There are accidents from your failures. I think the interesting thing is I think we're in a generational shift now where, you know, the ethics of boldness and the ethics of rule preservation in terms of not adding too many balls to certain features, that sort of thing is kind of at a crossroads where I think there needs to be more discussion about how, you know, what kind of risk should there be in climbing?

00:28:40:14 - 00:29:02:04
Speaker 3
Should the first ascension's be able to decide the risk of a route or should it be community based? And that's I don't have the answers, but I think it's a complex question that we should start working on more vigorously because I think it's, you know, climbing is only growing and it's only getting busier and busier and people are climbing these routes.

00:29:02:13 - 00:29:22:08
Speaker 3
You know, I think we should have both. I think I think we should have super safe, awesome or climbing areas that are, you know, basically as low as rescue as you can get. And I think I think we should also preserve people that want to be bold in their climbing because that's an experience that, at least to me is one of my core values.

00:29:22:08 - 00:29:41:02
Speaker 3
And so one of the things that has allowed me to be a guide now because I am old and willing to take the hard leads and do some of the things that maybe other people won't, and that does help. And I'm not saying that's right. I'm just trying to use my experience for me, I stand for absolutely.

00:29:41:02 - 00:30:05:11
Speaker 2
I think that this this is a lot you know, Max, this is a lot of kind of the topic we talked about with Colby and yeah, like, I mean, the stark example, I like to use his Elbow Canyon in Colorado. It's just like notoriously dangerous and like you said, you know, we should preserve the areas that want to have that ethos.

00:30:05:11 - 00:30:26:18
Speaker 2
And, you know, we don't need to necessarily go through and just retro bolt ldo because it's dangerous. It's just like we like you said, it's a matter of like the first secessionist, the community, like what was this area developed to be and let's just keep it that way. But you know, yeah, so that's kind of like what we've, we've talked about a little bit on this, but.

00:30:27:11 - 00:30:29:21
Speaker 3
It's pretty interesting. You bring a belt. That's my home grade.

00:30:29:21 - 00:30:34:20
Speaker 2
I literally it sounds like you're off to heights, although.

00:30:34:20 - 00:31:15:02
Speaker 3
Yeah, but the thing that I think is getting a little bit lost is through the lack of mentorship and some of the kind of styles of climbing the the reputation, although of being dangerous. Sure, there are some detours, routes there for sure, but generally speaking, I would say there's a lack of skill being transferred and how to find the tricky gear and how to navigate the tricky terrain versus the routes actually being actually dangerous is just that people are not learning how to place tricky gear or, you know, go left, go right and look for the hard to place gear, that sort of thing.

00:31:15:07 - 00:31:36:02
Speaker 3
And so, I mean, there's a classic route they're called Here City which despite knowing its voice. But the you know I mean it's very serious but the very serious part where it's run out is literally five, five, five, six on big holes and you just have to go 20 feet on a on a big ladder type of climbing.

00:31:36:07 - 00:31:52:21
Speaker 3
And then you could gear again all the hard climb into all protected. And so it takes a little bit of craft. You've got to you know, you got to place small stoppers and you got to go up, you know, maybe swing some horns and that sort of thing. But it is it is a tricky endeavor without the mentorship that's not occurring anymore.

00:31:52:21 - 00:32:13:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point. Like there's definitely probably people who are going out there with the incorrect membership and also trying too much too soon. You know, back to the previous conversation where we were talking about, you know, kind of retro bolting and risk and danger. I'm born in 93, you know, haven't been involved in the climate community for all that long.

00:32:13:19 - 00:32:33:09
Speaker 1
So I, I really respect bold routes, dangerous climbers, solo and all those kind of things. Revered, respected. But I know for me, that's not me. That's not my style. You know, no matter how much I wish I wanted to be that or something, it just isn't me. And that's not to say I don't take on risk. I do.

00:32:33:14 - 00:32:55:14
Speaker 1
But there's levels to take a risk, obviously, as people know. So the one thing I never really got about the wanting the route to be really bold is, you know, if you put in an extra bullet and you really want to go climb the route and you're like, okay, I'm going to skip to every two bolts like no one's saying, you can't do that and increase your risk, right?

00:32:55:14 - 00:33:14:00
Speaker 1
So I think that's an interesting thing. I would never go and retro bolt somebody route or something, but to me, I've never really got it is, is it's a moot point. It's like you could go climb some crack and just place one cam and then run the thing out like 70 feet. You know, if you really want risk or if there's a bolt that sport climb, you could skip bolts if you wanted to.

00:33:14:00 - 00:33:42:01
Speaker 1
So I'm more of the I think the newer style dilemma where it is, I, I would like to see less accidents in climbing, not more out of a sense of, of boldness. But I think that also does placate into what you just said, which is, you know, you can't you can't prevent all accidents. And if you're going out and doing things that you don't have the mentorship or the skill to do or to navigate the risk, then you're kind of already in the wrong place at the wrong time.

00:33:42:10 - 00:34:03:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, and I I've heard your argument a lot, and I think it's kind of a straw man argument because the old style ethic of climbing was all on site. So you don't know what's a bunny you don't even look wouldn't want. When I started climbing, we wouldn't even watch our fellow climbers. Klein Because then couldn't get the on site because you have data.

00:34:03:09 - 00:34:06:10
Speaker 3
So you had to look down when you were flying. And if there's.

00:34:06:18 - 00:34:07:20
Speaker 4
Something else, I'm sorry.

00:34:07:20 - 00:34:09:17
Speaker 1
It's a different generation.

00:34:09:17 - 00:34:10:03
Speaker 4
Yeah.

00:34:11:04 - 00:34:22:18
Speaker 3
But there's a boat people, you know, people assume that there's a bull for a reason, so you should clip it. So that's it's kind of there's a you know, there's another side to that argument that's really complex.

00:34:23:11 - 00:34:25:12
Speaker 1
No, totally. I think that's a great point.

00:34:26:09 - 00:34:54:04
Speaker 2
All right. Well, I think we got a little sidetracked here, which is awesome. Yeah. But yeah, I think that, you know, we're circling back to your progression here. You know, we've we've gotten, you know, to where you started climbing your mentorship, you know? So when did you it kind of seems like at the climbing story, you're climbing, you know, every day, you're packing every day.

00:34:54:04 - 00:35:08:21
Speaker 2
You're starting to kind of like be pushed into this guiding role. When did you start to take that role seriously and consider it as a career and like, why? Why did it when did it all click for you?

00:35:09:16 - 00:35:37:15
Speaker 3
That's another great question. I mean, I started gaining in the Cascades when I lived in Seattle and I worked for Mountain Man Cascade Guides and just was doing the classic guiding in the Cascades. Baedeker Shocks and up and up in Washington, Paris, all the stuff. And then after 911, then my wife and I took a break and my ex-wife now and we went to Boulder to see a bunch of friends that had moved here.

00:35:38:08 - 00:36:00:21
Speaker 3
And literally when we got to Boulder, an experienced elder on the flatirons of Bullock Union and just all the mountains here, we literally called a real estate agent in Seattle to put our house on the market. And six months later we were in Colorado and I met who's now one of my really good friends at the spa climbing gym.

00:36:00:21 - 00:36:23:13
Speaker 3
We, we, we helped to build the spot climbing gym when it first started in 2002. And he said, Hey, I just took this rocket course at the American Mountain Guides Association and now I learned a ton. You should take this. It's pretty cool. Oh, And so I went and actually took one of the programs in Red Rock and Vegas and met one of my long term mentors, Art Moody.

00:36:23:13 - 00:36:47:12
Speaker 3
It was my iPhone guy at that point who kind of started, you know, kind of the generation before me. And it all clicked right there. Like I knew right away that the level of expertise he had, the professionalism and just his way of articulating how we can be stewards of the people and the rocks. Well, and I was like, I'm going to get my pen.

00:36:47:13 - 00:37:11:02
Speaker 3
I got it. I got to do that. And so I was I went all in and went from no guide shield, formal guide training that, you know, getting my my certification. And it just under four years I think it was our brightest and not all in and I you know fortunately I have all the silver gear I was an ice climbers rock climber but I didn't have to worry about any of the movement.

00:37:11:02 - 00:37:18:18
Speaker 3
I had all the prerequisites. I just needed to go to the programs I just I went short. So it was in that it was 12 do when I just.

00:37:18:18 - 00:37:37:01
Speaker 2
When did you fund your guiding career or the certifications for your guiding career by guiding and working at climbing stores? Or did you have like the quote unquote typical career that you kind of like transitioned out of now?

00:37:37:01 - 00:37:56:15
Speaker 3
I mean, I did work in the oil industry a little bit in the early nineties, but that was just kind of like that transition all phase when you're not, you know, you don't really know what can do with your life. But now I funded it all through guiding and working at climbing shops and, you know, doing all the odd jobs and just kind of scrapping through it.

00:37:56:21 - 00:38:10:10
Speaker 3
Now, to be fair, I do they ask, oh, my wife had a good job in the medical industry and so she was able to kind of help support that. So that was very fortuitous and she was very supportive of that to.

00:38:10:17 - 00:38:11:02
Speaker 2
To.

00:38:11:19 - 00:38:13:10
Speaker 3
Lose a lot less as opposed.

00:38:13:18 - 00:38:48:07
Speaker 2
To to a climber. Now that might be considering the path of a guide. Would you say that not having a traditional job, committing yourself to climbing, potentially living in a van, working at climbing shops, do you think that is a viable way to afford the guide path or do you think that it's a hybrid system now where you need to kind of like draw funds from other places in order to get the certification and then commit yourself?

00:38:48:07 - 00:39:18:23
Speaker 3
I think you can definitely support yourself where you go through the guide profession, but not at the normal standard of living there. A lot of people expect these days, you're like you said, you're going to have to live in your van and be very frugal and and fight for you for every inch of progress you make. That being said, if you do decide to become a full certified guide that you know, I think the income, you know, the return on investments there.

00:39:19:09 - 00:39:31:07
Speaker 3
Well, you know, you're never to get rich. You're never going to make, you know, half million dollars a year. But you know, the top guides these days, if they're working a lot and travel a lot, hustling, they're definitely making in the six figures.

00:39:31:14 - 00:39:33:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's awesome. It's good to know. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

00:39:34:05 - 00:39:53:08
Speaker 1
No, it definitely. Yeah, definitely. Good to know that, you know, you're being rewarded into the career path. You know, if you're making the right choices and like anything, you're working hard, you're applying yourself and you're going to what you do right? You know? So like as a guide, what stands out most to you? Like what? What do you think?

00:39:53:08 - 00:40:06:23
Speaker 1
I mean, it seems like kind of like a, you know, rant like not not very direct question, but like, what is it that stands out most to you about being a guide? And has that changed over the years?

00:40:06:23 - 00:40:31:19
Speaker 3
Now, what stands out to me about being a mountain guide is that I get to affect people's lives in a positive way. I get to, you know, get people that I don't want, you know, maybe have never spent that much time outside. And over the years I can convert them to people that truly want to protect our, you know, our wild places and have the resources to do so.

00:40:32:01 - 00:40:57:12
Speaker 3
So I feel just like having like a positive effect on social change for even certain things is what to me is the biggest takeaway. I've just, you know, I've been able to, you know, I've been able to touch a lot of people's lives and get them exercise to be healthier and and check out glaciers and and want to protect places that are natural, pristine.

00:40:58:15 - 00:41:02:01
Speaker 3
And so I think that's for you know, for me, that's the take away now.

00:41:02:07 - 00:41:06:15
Speaker 1
That's super cool, man. That's really awesome. It's like, I'm sorry, you go.

00:41:07:04 - 00:41:23:05
Speaker 2
It sounds like you prefer to have a client that is new to the outdoors and climbing and versus someone who is more experienced and looking to advance their craft. Is that correct?

00:41:23:05 - 00:41:44:18
Speaker 3
Well, I'm not sure if that's correct. I mean, at this point, I mostly work with kind of a select group of retiring folks that I've worked with for a long time. Every year you've kind of added one or two, depending on people's life changes, those sorts of things. But over time, I prefer actually not to be into the raw teaching of climbing anymore because I did that for so many years.

00:41:45:01 - 00:42:08:12
Speaker 3
Now it's about providing experiences that change people's lives. So they can they can take a break from, you know, their their corporate lives or the hardship they've been in with their family or the abuse they've had those sorts of things, and give them something that gives them, you know, inspiration and that that can come at all levels of climbing.

00:42:08:12 - 00:42:36:17
Speaker 3
Like I've got some I've got some clients that need water. I six and 512. Yeah. And I'm a you know, I'm, I'm, I help I help curate experiences for them in the mountains and help them do those pitches safer And with more mentorships there are you know they're essentially paid for like high end mentorship and then I have clients that, you know, are probably never going to lead five, ten or lead water is five.

00:42:37:02 - 00:42:44:00
Speaker 3
And they're just looking for experience in the mountains and have a good time and come out safe.

00:42:44:22 - 00:43:04:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's cool. I think that's awesome that you have that gambit of of people and I think the one thing you know, because I considered being a guide for quite some time and I think it's really cool to hear that a lot of the guides over time you start to build repeat customers and I mean like any business, that's the bread and butter.

00:43:04:22 - 00:43:30:15
Speaker 2
You got to have people come back and, you know, the the experience starts to get so much more fluid and you get to add to the experience and you start to bond with them more. You learn about kind of who they are. And so it's interesting and awesome to hear that that is also something you find in the guiding industry and that it's not people just like one and done hire a guy and move on and then you're just like burning through people over the years, which would get it super exhausting to me.

00:43:31:19 - 00:43:51:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, that would get that would get really exhausting because the whole, the whole, you know, expectation of every day starts to become kind of assumed what you want, you know, what your long term guests and if you're just doing repeat or, you know, new people every day, you know, you're you're 100% right. That would just be really exhausted.

00:43:51:22 - 00:44:11:04
Speaker 3
And there are people that do that. And that's because, you know, they just want to work 8 to 4 and that's fine. You know, my job's a little more all consuming where you're answered texts or emails late at night or you're going out to dinner with them and their family and which is great, but it's also not your time gear, it's part of your job now.

00:44:11:14 - 00:44:40:08
Speaker 3
It's very different, but it's it's really cool. Like I just saw one of my long term guests, Josh and Benjamin, in Europe I started working with down in Canada when they were like nine and ten years old with their father and now Benjamin is a brain surgeon and Joshua works in the corporate world and they're both reading Water, Ice, five and five, ten and five, 11 and it's just cool to see them progress and they still hire me.

00:44:40:09 - 00:44:49:05
Speaker 3
We still go out like they like, you know, they want to go off a big route. They give me a call and we go do it. And so that's it's cool to see the full spectrum of it happening.

00:44:49:05 - 00:44:56:16
Speaker 2
That's a really, really cool I think that's like this. The beautiful thing about guiding is right there, that experience you just described.

00:44:56:16 - 00:45:16:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's really awesome and seems incredibly rewarding. How long did it take for you as a guide to start building those more long term relationships? Like is that is that a a common thing that you think you can do pretty early on, or do you think there's usually this kind of static period where you've got, you know, you got to pay your dues, you got to pay your dues essentially?

00:45:17:19 - 00:45:36:03
Speaker 3
Well, I think you have to pay your dues. Your most almost all guys are you start working for some bigger guide company and kind of getting a mentor and figuring it out. And the reality is, it's like a lot of professions. Not everybody is going to be a successful guide in terms of developing the clientele and going out of their own.

00:45:36:03 - 00:46:00:12
Speaker 3
There's going to be some people that just stick at the firm and crank it out and and, you know, that's what they're good at. And then some people are going to branch out like a lot of professions and start their own gigs and do their own thing and develop the clientele. Since, you know, when I'm when I'm teaching young guides, I have like a little bit of cliché or like a little bit of a fine saying, I like to say, but I, I tell them you only have two jobs and guiding.

00:46:00:12 - 00:46:19:11
Speaker 3
It's really simple. Don't kill people and have a ton of fun. And it really, you know, that's really what it boils down to. But you got to like manage the risk as best you can, which is not you know, it's not it's not foolproof. There's going to be accidents. And then beyond that, you're an entertainer. You're like, you're a therapist.

00:46:19:12 - 00:46:41:21
Speaker 3
You're you're talking to people's lives and you're like learning about their families and their jobs and you're like, you're hanging out with them. And and for me, it becomes, you know, like, sincere, like I actually have all these people are my friends. Like we check in over the holidays and we send each other cards. And it's a it's a pretty cool gig where when it gets to that point.

00:46:41:21 - 00:46:49:16
Speaker 3
But I don't think I don't think everybody has what it takes to, you know, to go out of their own to do that. It's a it's a it's a special niche job for sure.

00:46:49:16 - 00:46:59:22
Speaker 1
I think that also requires a lot of skills that you aren't going to get taught as a guide. Or it's like if you can on site 14 A but you're like a miserable person and nobody wants to be around and.

00:46:59:22 - 00:47:01:11
Speaker 4
Secrets probably.

00:47:01:11 - 00:47:15:04
Speaker 1
Can have some troubles there. So I think there's there's a lot of other things like interpersonal skills and quality and experiences and all these other things that seem to go into that. Well, obviously it's working. It's working well for you, man. Yeah. So, you know.

00:47:15:14 - 00:47:19:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, even if you felt like your wines have got to learn your meat.

00:47:19:17 - 00:47:23:00
Speaker 4
You know, it's the thing.

00:47:23:00 - 00:47:39:02
Speaker 1
You know, Actually, just quickly before we before we jump on to this this next year, this next topic here, you know, earlier when we were talking about guiding and I kind of had this like infantilize view of, okay, you just get to go to your A and, you know, you're just like, oh, this guy's having a great time.

00:47:39:02 - 00:47:54:10
Speaker 1
He's just, you know, climb into your ready for three weeks. What what is the difference there? Like, how would you knock that down a peg and kind of explain to us a little bit more what that experience is like for you? It doesn't have to be a deep dive, but just for people out there thinking about that.

00:47:54:10 - 00:48:27:15
Speaker 3
Why do you think people understand the the daily routine that goes into being a successful guy, especially if you're in ski and ice disciplines, which essentially require a lot of early starts? Like when I was in your I was up every morning for, well, you know getting some emails done working on my other job which is the technical director danger and just kind of like staying up on the business side of things you know, and then it's, you know, packing and checking the weather and doing your guides notes for the day on the hazards and everything.

00:48:27:21 - 00:48:49:03
Speaker 3
And so it's like there's a lot of prep and then it's like meeting the clients and going out and, you know, navigating the crowds and the routes and all the things and trying to get them back at a reasonable time so you can repeat. And so it just it's it's really just a lot of manual. It's like nonchalantly getting up early and doing the work and have a process for how to do it.

00:48:49:15 - 00:49:09:00
Speaker 3
Now, I'd be totally lying to you if I said it's not fun and amazing. I mean, it's also be good to you. Get to basically read all the pictures of the routes and you get to kind of be in charge and run out and and pick the routes based on people's ability and time of fun. But it's just a joke.

00:49:09:01 - 00:49:23:23
Speaker 3
It's kind of a grind. And I think a lot and I like the grind and I think that's one of the reason I'm successful is I like in a brilliant note, getting out the door and go outside, eat, you know, do all things. I think a lot of people don't realize the physical labor is not a thing that it's going to.

00:49:24:10 - 00:49:46:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, okay. No, definitely makes a lot of sense when you're dealing with like a crowd or a group is is like risk mitigation and risk analysis, something that really maybe still stresses you out or is it something that you're just you're so used to? It's just business as usual?

00:49:46:11 - 00:50:25:22
Speaker 3
No, I mean it. Well, it really depends on the objective. But knowing you definitely there's a lot of anxiety with really, you know, rude job, you know, competing for routes, getting to the right routes, the rope in to go to is, you know, are you judging the snow quality properly that day and, you know, the avalanche conditions properly based on the reports of what, you know, the snow pack, I would say, you know, like kind of at the higher end, once you start taking your private clients into remote terrain and kind of harder objectives, there's a lot of anxiety with with the decision making process.

00:50:25:22 - 00:50:43:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's something I'm really interested in because I think back to having this kind of, you know, happy go lucky view of a guide or someone or a professional athlete in those areas. You think, Oh, they're just solid, they know what they're doing. They're not second guessing themselves, they're not having those anxieties, those fears. So it's interesting to hear.

00:50:43:22 - 00:50:51:03
Speaker 1
It sounds like you're saying that's kind of something that like that never leaves you quite that self doubt, if that makes sense right now.

00:50:51:03 - 00:51:10:01
Speaker 3
I mean, the self-doubts always there and I think to be a solid guide, somebody that's going to do it as a career, you have to you have to be you have to be a little bit nervous about what you're doing, making sure you're bouncing ideas off your colleagues and other professional avenues to make sure you're making you have a process for good decision making.

00:51:10:01 - 00:51:30:18
Speaker 3
And that's the crux of it. I think you're also entitled to that, you know, leading to hard pitch, leading that, you know, the grade five pillar or the 511 Renaldo that like the actually that's easy it's the it's the whole process that goes into it to make sure you're on the right route to make sure you're choosing the right objectives for you and your guests and all those sorts of things.

00:51:30:18 - 00:51:31:22
Speaker 3
That's that's the hard part.

00:51:32:09 - 00:51:34:01
Speaker 1
Totally makes sense.

00:51:34:13 - 00:51:52:10
Speaker 2
Did you have so you were at the you're you're at Ice Fest. I've been there before. You said there was a lot of snow. I know that area especially is known for avalanche hazard. Did you guide any trips outside of the clinics inside the ice park while you were there?

00:51:52:10 - 00:52:15:04
Speaker 3
Yeah. No. Yeah, I was going to bunch in surrounding zones and on normal year, you know, there would be there would have been a lot more ascents over in Eureka, which is where Stairway to Heaven is or out. So as it is. And even things like Bridal Veil had issues with the approach slopes because things were, you know, going fairly big up on Ajax Mountain there and that sort of thing.

00:52:15:04 - 00:52:36:20
Speaker 3
And so it was a it was a different year than normal because we had to we were constrained to routes that had less hazard from above and really paying attention to the snow. But yeah, and there were still a lot of guiding outside the park and things like shamans Tube, Dexter skylights on Bridal Veil, you know, all those things.

00:52:36:20 - 00:52:40:09
Speaker 3
But there wasn't I was there conditions were bad enough that we didn't spend any time you.

00:52:40:18 - 00:52:46:03
Speaker 2
Do you know did you know the status on Horsetail. I only ask that because that's the one that I've got any experience with.

00:52:47:08 - 00:53:06:19
Speaker 3
But I mean, Horsetail was okay to climb a bunch of the time I was there. There was just so much snow on it that it was basically a snow cone. So people were going there because it wasn't even really an ice queen. Okay. Horsetail is really cool when it's been dry and it's like all exposed ice because it's so low angle.

00:53:08:02 - 00:53:08:21
Speaker 3
Okay. Yeah, cool.

00:53:09:12 - 00:53:35:16
Speaker 1
I Think we're good here to move on? That would be great. And so essentially, actually, you know, you spoke of your Instagram earlier. I follow you on Instagram. I really enjoyed your Instagram. And then one day you posted of an accident you had where you fell ice climbing. And that's kind of why I reached out. And you know, thought it'd be a great opportunity to kind of hear your story and maybe have a conversation about sharing those stories.

00:53:35:16 - 00:53:44:13
Speaker 1
And in talking about safety and your takeaways from them. So, yeah, why do you, if you don't mind like taking us through that, Like what happened with that?

00:53:45:07 - 00:53:49:07
Speaker 3
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, the three rules of ice climbing, right?

00:53:49:07 - 00:53:50:08
Speaker 1
It don't fall down.

00:53:50:08 - 00:53:51:00
Speaker 4
Don't fall.

00:53:51:21 - 00:53:57:03
Speaker 3
You don't fall them fall. And if you do fall, don't hit the ground. So did you.

00:53:57:05 - 00:53:58:18
Speaker 2
Did you break all three rules, Dale?

00:53:59:16 - 00:54:18:01
Speaker 3
Well, on on the first one, I didn't. I just broke the first two. But then on the second accident, I broke all three. Oh, so essentially, you know, I had really hoped to finish my ice climbing career some day and have never fallen because that was that, you know, that's how I was mentor is that you must not fall in ice.

00:54:18:01 - 00:54:42:09
Speaker 3
And I, I had been very proud of my my own my record of not fine allies for a long, long time. And I was actually teaching a guide course in Europe. And we were up at the skylight zone and I was doing an instructor demo, which is where we kind of model the kind of expectation of guided on a route and we were on the route skylight, which is a really deep chimney climb on pitch to.

00:54:42:09 - 00:55:00:15
Speaker 3
I was up there and feeling very comfortable and I was fully in my wheelhouse. And, you know, not that big a deal, which is probably what got me, is being complacent on such what I thought was an easy route for me and, you know, I'm not sure if I got hit by a big chunk of snow or just slipped.

00:55:00:15 - 00:55:16:19
Speaker 3
I'm not really sure. I think I got hit by a big chunk of snow because we had a bunch of snowballs falling out of the trees that day. But regardless, I didn't have good enough tools and didn't have a good enough stance, that sort of thing, because you should be able to withstand those kind of things. And essentially that day I wasn't good enough.

00:55:16:19 - 00:55:37:14
Speaker 3
I fell in due to the nature of the pitch. There's just a lot of rope in service. Even though I had a screw pretty close to my speech, it still took about three footer now. And it's a real it's a real narrow chimney. So I bounced. How much of me and I knew right away that I was hurt.

00:55:37:21 - 00:56:12:08
Speaker 3
Oh, I mean, I could see it. There was something wrong and the juice didn't. Something not very fortunate that that day of guiding, I happened to be on a guide course because I had these students that were there was self rest in all things elite. We talked through a plan for them to do are they are they can ever pal with me down to the road we call it the radio and read some of the other guide instructors and all the rest knew there was good weather that the fortunately still they were able to drive an ambulance up giving and finding and helicopters from during by hour to manage us well and it was a

00:56:12:15 - 00:56:38:05
Speaker 3
was a pretty serious injury in that I had a Emanuel thorax so basically I broke a bunch of ribs and a punctured my lung and that now if not treated injury really quickly and that's why so many people die in car accidents. I mean, a block for trauma is they basically you don't have a pneumothorax. Those might happen really bleeding into my chest cavity.

00:56:38:05 - 00:56:57:08
Speaker 3
But fortunately, they were able to land in Montrose and there was a trauma surgeon on staff which isn't always the case there. And they were able to get a hole in my chest wall and get a tube out of it. Was it? It's a crazy wound. It's basically a flesh wound. And if treated properly, I hope the cow back at it as soon as that ensures the wound heals.

00:56:58:07 - 00:57:10:00
Speaker 3
So I was actually I did some top rubbing on ice, but I think it was 7 to 10 days after accident. You know, it's intense shit, you know, almost killed me and then had a really successful broken.

00:57:10:00 - 00:57:15:03
Speaker 2
We're way, way, way, way. You ice climbed on top rope seven days. You broke your ribs.

00:57:15:20 - 00:57:19:10
Speaker 3
I did? Yeah. I hate all those.

00:57:20:04 - 00:57:21:22
Speaker 2
I okay on brand.

00:57:22:15 - 00:57:23:01
Speaker 4
All that.

00:57:24:00 - 00:57:42:23
Speaker 2
I so, you know, I was a kid I was running around a pool deck and I fell and hit my chest on the pool deck. I was like, knock the wind out of myself. I woke up the next morning and sneezed and ripped an intercostal muscle between the ribs. I passed out and blacked out. I was out the whole summer.

00:57:42:23 - 00:57:47:12
Speaker 2
And you're ice climbing seven days after broken ribs. I'm just, like, blown away right now. Like.

00:57:48:05 - 00:58:08:06
Speaker 3
I think there's different, you know, I think it depends on what rib you break, where it's broken sort of thing. My were you know, what were considered like stable fractures. So essentially I you know, I just wore like a chest strap on and yeah, I didn't want to sneeze because I heard like a song gone for sure. And it just needs a couple of times.

00:58:08:06 - 00:58:33:23
Speaker 3
Not that put me down my knees, but the actual act of climbing was fine. Now, I didn't exactly pay attention to the doctors directions because we you don't want to do is have another impact. And we, you know, recut the lawn and, you know, have another incident. So I took the risk and for me, that was worth it.

00:58:34:06 - 00:58:59:02
Speaker 3
I'm not saying everybody should do that, but for me, getting back into the saddle and getting back, climbing, it was one of my strategies for getting back into it. I know from other experiences, a lot of the think the more I kind of avoid a situation, the harder it is for me to reengage. So I just need to I just need to go back and do it and just like get right back in the saddle.

00:58:59:02 - 00:59:00:21
Speaker 3
And that's just for me. That's what works.

00:59:02:08 - 00:59:21:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I don't think it would work for every single person, obviously, but in general it does make a lot of sense to to not have like an aversion to the situation when when you were climbing that day, what was it like for you? Was it just business as usual or.

00:59:22:07 - 00:59:24:15
Speaker 3
You mean the day I went back to climb the after the accident?

00:59:25:06 - 00:59:28:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, like seven, ten days later, your top rope a ice. What is that.

00:59:28:12 - 00:59:46:18
Speaker 3
Now? It was just. It was fine, actually. You know, a couple of my long term clients offered to go out and make sit up top ribs for me and we just hung out and just did some top rope laps on real kind of moderate, you know, easy grade five, hard grade for just top rope in your it in it was fine I every time exercise it.

00:59:47:04 - 00:59:53:13
Speaker 4
But all right all right all right. That's all right now I mean.

00:59:54:03 - 01:00:22:06
Speaker 3
Not that I think I think a more, you know, appropriate question you should ask and you would know to ask this is, you know, not long after this, I went back to Canmore for my my normal guiding season up there. And my first guest actually was a new guest. And I think on day two of my trip, they wanted to climb curtain call, which is a classic kind of hard, but I'll grade six oftentimes up on the parkway and that gave me a lot of anxiety.

01:00:22:06 - 01:00:45:03
Speaker 3
I had to I had to breeze through. I took a bunch more ice screws. I normally do, and I had to rest a bond shake out and really focus through a mental process from kind of hard section to heart section. And that was a that was intense and it could have turned out differently. I could have like bailed and maybe that, you know, that would have kind of messed with my head a bit.

01:00:45:03 - 01:01:04:09
Speaker 3
But I was able to get through it and I was very transparent with the guests. They knew about everything and they were like, Yeah, let's do it. You want to come down and come down to any point? And so I think that I to be able to work through it and not feel the pressure helped me keep moving up the pitch.

01:01:04:09 - 01:01:29:00
Speaker 3
And I got lucky and it worked out and I was able to kind of get through it. Now, do I think about falling on ice more than I used to in the past when I had to fall on? Yeah, when I'm up there, I'm looking down like, Oh man, this will hurt if I fall here. And I'm really trying to not be in a moment and pay attention to my skills right then, because I think that's what got me in trouble when I fell is, is I was just loyal to lazy.

01:01:29:22 - 01:01:31:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Interesting.

01:01:31:10 - 01:01:36:15
Speaker 2
Easy, easy to look in front and up and not look down.

01:01:37:11 - 01:01:37:19
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:01:38:18 - 01:01:59:21
Speaker 1
I think. Yeah, We had a conversation with, like, a future guest. He's coming on the show fill and we were talking about that. The kind of ice climbing rule. Don't fall, don't fall, don't fall. And he was expressing it from the point of view of there was experienced climber who had had this injury and essentially it's it's like maybe that's easy if you go out and climb, you know, like some light climbs a couple of times a year.

01:01:59:21 - 01:02:24:03
Speaker 1
But if you spend 60 days on ice every single year, year after year after year after year, you know, you just start running the probability on that. It's like the idea of just never fall. Well, it sounds great and hopefully it happens to everybody. You know, you just never fall. But how realistic is that? You know, do you do you have any other guides or other friends, you know, who have fallen on ice?

01:02:25:01 - 01:02:44:22
Speaker 3
Yeah, most of my most of my colleagues that I know of have had some sort of slip or fall. And usually it's worked out. But I'd also have some friends have gotten pretty hurt, you know, broken their ankles and that sort of thing. Always, you know, there's I don't know too many really experienced climbers that haven't thought I don't think.

01:02:44:22 - 01:02:52:02
Speaker 3
Will you had a spot on yet on lead on ice like, you know pure ice climbing that I could be wrong.

01:02:52:02 - 01:02:55:09
Speaker 1
We can leave that weird Martian out of the statistics you know that.

01:02:55:19 - 01:02:56:09
Speaker 3
Exactly.

01:02:56:12 - 01:02:57:18
Speaker 1
That that total freak.

01:02:58:13 - 01:02:59:19
Speaker 4
That just completed No one.

01:03:01:00 - 01:03:08:19
Speaker 3
On the on shoulder out there and we have a lot of friends that I know most likely having fallen. But it's like you're right. I mean, you're just running on such a stats.

01:03:09:13 - 01:03:22:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Super, super interesting. Yeah. You know, not to, you know, not to beat a dead horse here, but you did have another fall besides the fall in the chimney. That's correct.

01:03:23:19 - 01:03:41:15
Speaker 3
Yeah. I was actually guiding and just a couple of years after that up on Ice nine, which is another and a grade six polar in Jan and all it was and it was in grade five shape that you're like climbing very well like super fat really nice that already guided it three or four times that season I can't remember.

01:03:42:19 - 01:04:11:09
Speaker 3
And my final guest of the season was one of my dearest friends now seems bomb com the Bob stories up Vietnam veteran and know we climbed to Matterhorn when he was 73. You know he's just a real stride and we we had the day before we'd climb the four weeping pillar which is seven or eight pitchers of water I six and then we were on ice nine and conditions had changed.

01:04:11:09 - 01:04:32:20
Speaker 3
We were both tired. We had a drive in the dark and another party came up behind us and was kind of pushing me a little bit. And I don't think they were intentionally pushing me. That's just, you know, that was my perception, is that I needed to kind of keep moving so it wasn't holding them up. They were actually some guide friends of mine and started up this thing in the dark by headlamp and got to do some funky ice.

01:04:33:09 - 01:04:49:09
Speaker 3
And I cheered to all through some channel years and pitched off and went about somewhere, somewhere around 15, 20 feet down a big ice shelf and broke my back and my pelvis. Oh, my God. Yeah.

01:04:50:20 - 01:04:55:20
Speaker 1
So this happened two years after the initial fall with the pneumothorax. You're talking about right.

01:04:56:14 - 01:05:07:13
Speaker 3
Down to pretty accidents and pretty short, you know, very short span. So both of what a both are like a helicopter flights, which was great.

01:05:07:13 - 01:05:08:10
Speaker 1
This VIP.

01:05:09:01 - 01:05:12:04
Speaker 4
Yeah a lot of miles Yeah.

01:05:12:11 - 01:05:14:22
Speaker 2
Log it is the flight credit card for those miles.

01:05:15:01 - 01:05:18:18
Speaker 4
Yeah yeah exactly.

01:05:18:18 - 01:05:37:07
Speaker 1
Okay so what about I've got a couple of things, but we'll we'll start with one, obviously. So what about this situation was different than the first? Like it seems like you are physically more injured. What was the recovery process like and how did you approach getting back into climbing after this fall?

01:05:38:09 - 01:06:02:16
Speaker 3
Oh, yeah. This one actually took about six months before I was really feeling healthy again and a few months without climbing because, you know, I had a cracked pelvis in, I think three or four broken vertebrae in my lower back. They were all stable fractures, Like they didn't require any surgery. That sort of thing is basically just inactivity, petty interests to get things back on him.

01:06:02:16 - 01:06:33:02
Speaker 3
I later found out I had a chore labrum in my hip as well, and also some torn rotator cuff from my left shoulder and that was different because I just kind of it happened in the spring and there was all that rest period. I started kind of rock climbing again and are just kind of working through the middle aspects with my then girlfriend and just climb and just get down climbing easy routes.

01:06:33:02 - 01:06:49:15
Speaker 3
I spent a lot of time so being up in the slot, I was just on really easy terrain just to move my body, you know, after that kind of lower back injury for me, movement is what gives me pain free. Like I have to move. Yeah.

01:06:50:13 - 01:07:11:12
Speaker 1
You know, it's funny that you say that like from for me with my injuries, my ankle, the more I do, it makes me more sore. But I get progressively more and more functional. Like the more I move, the better my body is. Essentially. Yeah, you know, I know with I know with my injury, you know, we're obviously different generations, very different people.

01:07:11:12 - 01:07:35:18
Speaker 1
But I had a lot of really, really self-deprecating thoughts. I was really embarrassed. I was kind of under the feeling of like, why I'm a joke as a climber, you know, like, I'm not even that good of a climber. And I made this mistake and it was easy. I'm wondering, did you have any kind of mental barriers like that, like, you know, as a guide, being injured, how how did you kind of mentally process that?

01:07:37:01 - 01:07:59:17
Speaker 3
I don't think I've just been very fortunate not to get, you know, overly analytical with those sorts of accidents. You know, I made mistakes. I acknowledge them. I shared it with the community, got it out there and guide forums. You wrote it up in, you know, Accidents of North mountaineering and all the things to try and just share the lessons learned of how I kind of pushed it.

01:07:59:17 - 01:08:24:14
Speaker 3
And it's very easy to see how that accident could have occurred. But once I got back climbing, you know, I didn't I didn't have that problem worried about falling or or being, you know, worried about being judged about the accident or had and that of thing. I just shared it. I'm just I guess I'm a little bit older now, kind of got through that process.

01:08:25:04 - 01:08:34:17
Speaker 3
Well, maybe not carried as much as other people think and just trying to do the right thing all the time. And that's what I just tried to here the accident and and be transparent.

01:08:35:08 - 01:08:48:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. You know, I wish I had that whatever pathway that is to channel that that, that seems like it'd be pretty nice. But I, you know, maybe I care or think a little bit too much about what people think of me. Probably, you know. No.

01:08:49:01 - 01:08:50:11
Speaker 3
It'll change over time, Trust me.

01:08:51:04 - 01:09:15:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, I believe that for sure. Yeah. So, you know, I think when we spoke last, you mentioned that, you know, you've had I think the number was 30, 30 plus friends who you've seen who passed away in the mountains. I'm just like, I guess I'm wondering like, you know, I have it here is like, you know, you've been through injuries.

01:09:15:20 - 01:09:32:05
Speaker 1
The sport can be so high risk in certain ways. You know, is it all worth it, essentially, Like, how do we how do we as climbers guides or mountain athletes, how do we justify the risks that we undertake in the in this kind of lifestyle in sport?

01:09:33:14 - 01:09:51:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, well, I mean, I recently did a fireside chat talk down in your air with a bunch of folks that showed up, I think it was 20 or 30 people there. And, you know, that was sponsored by Arc'teryx and Petzel and I started the the chap with the piece of paper and said 50 plus and asked people, what do you think this means?

01:09:52:05 - 01:10:19:21
Speaker 3
Because actually after you and I talked, I did more accounting and the numbers well over 50. And so the whole talk was about risk and is it worth and essentially there, you know, this this exact question that you're asking and for me, it's absolutely worth it. You know, the beat, the the richness that we get going out there and learning these experiences and seeing the wild places is 100% worth it.

01:10:20:08 - 01:10:44:22
Speaker 3
To me, what's not worth it is when people get killed by stupid human errors that are very preventable. And so that's why I'm spending so much time trying to really push basic skills on my social media and training guides and that sort of thing. I think I think we can live with, you know, the people that get killed when the mountain falls apart and get something were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

01:10:44:23 - 01:11:08:09
Speaker 3
That's like it's sad and sucks and and it hurts, but it's okay. You know, they were doing what they wanted to be doing it and they just got hit by a random act as bang when I can't stand as what people, you know, wrap off the end of their ropes or they just do something because they're complacent. Or maybe their egos get in the way or whatever it is.

01:11:08:23 - 01:11:18:13
Speaker 3
To me, that's all worth it. And I think we knew a lot more to teach people to be bold like my dad did. But do it safely. Yeah.

01:11:19:02 - 01:11:43:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, super. Well said. I think that there is it's almost like you talk about it in this kind of black and white sense, and I resonate with that a lot. I think that, you know, if nature calls, it's easier to digest than if, you know, like you said, human error. Like if if something was completely avoidable, it's harder to digest.

01:11:43:23 - 01:11:49:02
Speaker 2
That information is harder to digest that loss hundred percent.

01:11:49:02 - 01:11:56:06
Speaker 3
And it's still okay. You know, I don't think we should judge by making mistakes. I think we just need to do more to prevent those selling mistakes.

01:11:56:21 - 01:12:08:03
Speaker 1
Yeah. So absolutely. So I guess on that topic, then, you know, what is the community getting wrong? What are some of these these silly mistakes, you know, and how can we prevent them?

01:12:09:02 - 01:12:38:12
Speaker 3
Well, I think, you know, I'm reading your show notes or it says what? What's the climate community getting wrong about safety? And I think literally just in that and reading that, that's one of the things the climate community is getting wrong is they think that climbing can be safe. And it's like that you can control this risk. And I think that's just not like, you know, in in the professional guiding community, actually using the word safe for safety is kind of the taboo.

01:12:38:20 - 01:13:07:18
Speaker 3
It's all you're trying to do is manage risk. And we can't fully ever manage it. The risk is always there. Humans are are in charge of the day. And so I think one of the big things we're getting wrong is we're not talking about the risk and the consequences of mistakes. And I think I think we should be having more community meetings about teaching young climbers like, it's okay, and you're doing this on your site that you're pushing it.

01:13:08:01 - 01:13:17:14
Speaker 3
But these are the downsides. Are you aware and just like trying to do that in a fun, cool way would be a huge breakthrough in climbing community? Yes, I think.

01:13:19:05 - 01:13:46:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's an interesting to put it. So I resonate with that very strongly because obviously my mistakes are my own, but the knowledge I had prior to the mistakes I made was not the knowledge that I have now coming through this process in this industry and being more connected with the community. I really never had anybody or any mentor who talked me and was saying, you know, this is rad, go get it.

01:13:46:15 - 01:14:03:19
Speaker 1
But also this can happen to you. And I know a lot of people that this has happened to that never crossed my mind. It was never a thought of mine, you know, and then obviously had some injuries. And and so, yeah, I think that's that is a really, really important thing that we should be doing with the community.

01:14:03:19 - 01:14:13:17
Speaker 1
I'm hoping we're doing it here on this platform. Yeah. Even though I bumble through some of my questions and, and then I've got smart people like you who can, you know, provide some good answers. So. Yeah.

01:14:14:06 - 01:14:24:18
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think, I think a lot of people are maybe getting a little bit upset with like the glorification of some of the stuff online and all the things that we've seen or some of that and big movies, right?

01:14:24:18 - 01:14:44:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that in general, when you start out climbing, your focus is not like, okay, how risky is this? How risky is this? It's more like you're convincing yourself that it's safe, like you said, you know? That's right. Remember when I started climbing, it was like, okay, know, someone taught me how to place a camera, like, okay, I'm safe.

01:14:44:22 - 01:15:06:17
Speaker 2
Like, trust the camp, Trust camp. I'm safe. Trust the camp or trust anchor. You know, like, you're convincing yourself that you're safe to do this ludicrous thing that you're attempting to do, whether that be, you know, your first multipage trad lead or your first trad lead in general. There's this level of having to kind convince yourself that you're okay doing this thing that you're doing.

01:15:07:00 - 01:15:31:14
Speaker 2
And it's it's a hard thing to grip because you do have to be comfortable and you do have to be calm and you have to be in control. And there's a level of fearlessness that comes with that. But there's a line that you can cross where you assume the fearlessness without really understanding the real risk that you're putting yourself in.

01:15:31:14 - 01:15:54:22
Speaker 2
And so there's like this this juxtaposition of fearlessness and understanding the risks that we all have to navigate as climbers. And yeah, I really think that what you said in terms of just like allowing the risk to be there blatantly is super important. But you still have to you have to understand it enough in a way where you can be confident still at the same time.

01:15:55:20 - 01:16:12:19
Speaker 3
Yeah, and I don't I don't think there's any really super elegant way to say it, but you have to hope for a little bit of luck along the way, too. I mean, that's that's just a reality. That's that's true with any thing in life, really. You know, all the stuff we do. You have a little bit of luck along the way.

01:16:13:05 - 01:16:18:00
Speaker 3
Well, you one of the things I like to do, though, is, though, is the better you get, the luckier you are.

01:16:19:13 - 01:16:25:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. I read a quote that said that luck is a culmination of 10,000 micro decisions.

01:16:26:05 - 01:16:26:12
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:16:27:07 - 01:16:40:03
Speaker 2
And so, you know, it's just like it's where your head's at, you know, it's a combination of what you're manifesting, what you expect in life and what you think about. It's what you bring about.

01:16:40:03 - 01:17:01:12
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, one of my mentor, Tom Hargis, he'd want you were my guy trainers. He had the same like never turn your back to danger and you know, you can stand away from the edge of the class in facing that so you can see the hazard and still have just as much fun as if you were like, kind of not paying attention and really reduce your risk.

01:17:01:17 - 01:17:14:04
Speaker 3
And so all those little things over time that if people just pointed out to you like, why are you standing there? So they want to stand over here. And I might, you know, that might save your life someday, though. Now that that one's always stuck with me.

01:17:14:21 - 01:17:36:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, I we, we interviewed Alan Burgess. He's like a mountaineer. I don't know if you know. Yeah, Yes, yes. Yeah. And but he says sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. And I would think, yes, that's on brand with what we're talking about. I think back to the just quickly touching on the what we said about the media.

01:17:37:06 - 01:17:58:05
Speaker 1
You know with these like, you know, you know, kind of polar extremes. These examples like Alex Honnold, Tommy Caldwell, the people kind of pushing the frontier of the sport. So many other names, obviously, but I don't really think the onus is on them to drive the conversation for safety because they're kind of like antithetical to that, you know what I mean?

01:17:58:05 - 01:18:20:16
Speaker 1
They're like doing the most extreme thing. So I think part of the problem is, okay, you're a new rock climber and you aren't in one of these groups that you're trying, you know, build or have mentorship. You don't have a mentor, you don't have anybody around you giving you proper warning about the risk. And then you just went out and binge watched like ten real rock movies and now you're like super stoked on going out there and climbing really hard.

01:18:20:21 - 01:18:44:09
Speaker 1
And I think it's like that, that and don't get me wrong, got a real rock subscription. Love it. You know. No, there's not hating on real rock. I love the videos. It's just saying that you don't we don't want that to be where the younger UN mentored part The climbing community who's looking to transition outside is getting their inspiration for, you know, for doing things, at least in my estimation.

01:18:44:09 - 01:19:00:06
Speaker 1
I don't think so, because for every one really bald lucky climber that that produces, there's going to be a lot who are just, you know, in this wake of destruction, you know, who have some really bad battle scars that probably could have been those preventable accidents we were talking about.

01:19:01:04 - 01:19:33:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, Well, I mean, I think I think the media is contributing to the kind of maybe unwarranted baldness that climbers have. But is it their job to control that or is it humans making better decisions to control that? I don't know the answer, but that I mean, I love all the climbing movies and stories that are out there now, but maybe that's a privileged thing to say based on me already knowing so much about how to manage the risk.

01:19:33:05 - 01:19:39:08
Speaker 3
And maybe it's not healthy for, you know, young climbers, I'm not sure. And so it's a it's a big question we should ask.

01:19:40:03 - 01:20:05:12
Speaker 2
I think that the one thing about climbing media that is kind of hard to is that risk is the one thing that people, whether you're a climber or not, can relate to. And so that's why I think that people like Alex Honnold and people taking on all this risk have become so mainstream is because people who aren't climbers can still relate to what he's doing.

01:20:05:12 - 01:20:30:14
Speaker 2
It's the risk. It's the risk that is what makes it so captivating. That is what makes it so relatable to people outside the climbing sphere and so it's super marketable. And that in itself is kind of a dark understanding, but also kind of shed some light on why it's, quote unquote so popular. It's just because it's more digestible to people.

01:20:30:14 - 01:21:09:09
Speaker 2
It's this raw emotion, It's this raw understanding of like, wow, this guy could die if he falls. It's like a very basic understanding of kind of what's happening. Whereas a video of Chris Sharma's, you know, sport climbing 540 D might be super interesting to all three of us, but to a person on the street who's not really familiar with climbing, is it really going to grasp the the drama and the the technical difficulty and the experience that it's taken for this person to get there and what respect it and understand it as much as walking into a theater and seeing someone climb 5000 feet off the ground without a rope.

01:21:09:20 - 01:21:16:13
Speaker 2
And so I think that's like where we're at right now and why people like Alex Honnold are getting so popular.

01:21:17:07 - 01:21:31:19
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's the that's that. I mean, that's human nature right there. I mean, this this glorification of risk has been happening since the dawn of humans. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's going away.

01:21:31:22 - 01:21:35:22
Speaker 4
Something is something. I don't think so either. I think maybe.

01:21:35:22 - 01:21:39:22
Speaker 1
The the the personal responsibility around it's probably the good fix.

01:21:41:05 - 01:21:41:12
Speaker 4
Yeah.

01:21:42:14 - 01:21:44:22
Speaker 1
Kyle, you got anything else?

01:21:44:22 - 01:21:50:07
Speaker 2
I think that's a great place to end it, man. Yeah. Anything else? Do you feel like we missed?

01:21:51:03 - 01:21:55:17
Speaker 3
No. Psyched for the time and hopefully the edit goes well, that was fun.

01:21:56:22 - 01:22:09:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, man. No, it's. It's been a it's been a blast chatting with you. And I really appreciate you taking the time and coming on the show and stuff and, you know, maybe it's a pipe dream, but who knows? One day in the future, I'll. I'd love to run into you in person or get to climb with you or something.

01:22:10:20 - 01:22:15:01
Speaker 3
You also do a mega down to earth. I will set up a little little climbing for Foray.

01:22:15:22 - 01:22:20:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, man, I mean it. I'd really love to. So I'll. I'll reach out. Who knows? You know, I've.

01:22:20:14 - 01:22:20:20
Speaker 4
Got to.

01:22:21:12 - 01:22:33:07
Speaker 1
Slowly the list through the podcast growing up just connecting and I'm like, all right, now I've got like, I need to get like a world map with pins of just like people. I need to go meet person and give a hug and climb with for a day.

01:22:33:07 - 01:22:38:00
Speaker 3
Oh, well, plus, if you go to your writing, you probably get a whole bunch of good up interviews lined up.

01:22:38:23 - 01:22:40:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, no, that as well too.

01:22:40:16 - 01:22:42:04
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah.

01:22:42:04 - 01:23:02:01
Speaker 2
Right on. We'll have to do. Our big goal is to do a live one. We want to do like a live interview at an event like that. And so, like that's if we, we've got some big hefty goals for this year, but if we can make that happen, this year would be a switch for us. So yeah, that's, that's something we're trying to make happen.

01:23:02:01 - 01:23:03:09
Speaker 3
Well, I mean, I if I can help in any way.

01:23:04:06 - 01:23:05:08
Speaker 2
That would be awesome.

01:23:05:15 - 01:23:32:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, man. I take you up on that offer.


Introduction
Dale's Background
Stewardship & Ethics
Path To Guiding
Accidents & Safety