The Climbing Majority

31 | Route Development, Stewardship, and a Dark Side w/ Colby Wangler

January 16, 2023 Kyle Broxterman & Max Carrier Episode 31
The Climbing Majority
31 | Route Development, Stewardship, and a Dark Side w/ Colby Wangler
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

I don't know about you but when I first started climbing..creating a first ascent and developing a route was something my regular climbing partner and I would fantasize about—looking out the car window on long road trips for any rock formation that might have been untouched, a prize yet to be claimed. However, like most of you, I am sure, I was too enthralled in actually climbing to take the time, money, and focus to become a route developer. 

With climbing being so accessible, and there being over fifty thousand published routes on Mountain Project between California and Canada alone, it is easy to just enjoy climbs and forget all the work it took to establish them. Today, our topic is route development and we get to sit down with a local climber and route developer here in Reno, his name is Colby Wangler. In our conversation, we talk about how Colby found climbing and what lead him to become a route developer, the ins and out of the route developing process, and how Colby both developed and climbed his first own 5.13. We cover how we, the majority, the people who get enjoy the work of others, can support, maintain, and give back to the areas we love so much. And finally, we talk about a potential dark side to this amazing sport we call climbing. 

Please rate, review the show, and share this podcast with your friends. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools to help us out.

Contact us:
IG:
@the.climbing.majority
Email: theclimbingmajoritypodcast@gmail.com

Resources: Please help support the development and maintenance of your local climbing area. Here are some places that will be a good start and could use our support.

Alpine Club of Canada

American Alpine Club

Squamish Access Society

Sea to Sky Climbing Hardware Fund

British Mountaineering Crag Care Fund

Access Fund USA (Register and Adopt a Crag)




00:00:00:14 - 00:00:01:20
Speaker 1
Hey, everyone. Kyle here.

00:00:02:05 - 00:00:23:22
Speaker 2
Welcome back to the Climbing Majority podcast, where Max and I sit down with living legends, professional athletes, certified guides and recreational climbers alike to discuss the topics, lessons, stories and experiences found in the life of a climber. If you haven't already, please subscribe, rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts.

00:00:28:01 - 00:00:44:06
Speaker 2
All right, guys, let's dive into it. I don't know about you, but when I first started climbing, creating a first ascent and developing a route was something that me and my regular climbing partner would fantasize about. We look out the car window on long road trips for any rock formation that might have been untouched, a prize yet to be claimed.

00:00:44:20 - 00:01:05:11
Speaker 2
However, like most of you, I'm sure I was way too enthralled in actually climbing to take the time, money and focus to actually become a route developer. With climbing, being so accessible and there being over 50,000 published routes on Mountain project between California and Canada alone, it's easy just to enjoy climbs and forget all the work it took to establish them.

00:01:06:09 - 00:01:28:08
Speaker 2
Today, our topic is route development and we get to sit down with a local climber and route developer here in Reno. His name is Colby Winkler. In our conversation, we talk about how Colby found climbing and what events led him to become a route developer. The ins and outs of the route development process. How Colby both developed and climbed his own first 513.

00:01:29:16 - 00:01:49:20
Speaker 2
We cover how we the majority can help support, maintain and give back to the areas we love so much. And finally, we talk about a potential dark side to this amazing sport we call climbing.

00:01:53:10 - 00:01:54:14
Speaker 3
Yeah. How are you guys doing?

00:01:55:18 - 00:01:57:07
Speaker 1
Good. Good to meet you, Max.

00:01:58:02 - 00:01:59:00
Speaker 4
Yeah, man.

00:01:59:09 - 00:02:01:09
Speaker 2
COLBY Yeah. Welcome to the show.

00:02:02:02 - 00:02:10:05
Speaker 1
Wakeman finally made it happen. We've been kind of, like, dicking around with it for a while. As far as locking something down. So.

00:02:10:16 - 00:02:13:21
Speaker 4
Yeah, I've heard your name in passing for a while, so, you know, it's nice.

00:02:13:21 - 00:02:14:08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:02:14:13 - 00:02:17:01
Speaker 4
Nice to have you here in the digital flesh.

00:02:17:12 - 00:02:20:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. All right.

00:02:20:10 - 00:02:22:20
Speaker 2
It's all going to start becoming more and more of a reality.

00:02:23:11 - 00:02:26:15
Speaker 4
For sure, man. Give it a couple of years will be. What does it matter?

00:02:26:17 - 00:02:29:08
Speaker 1
Metal thinking? Yeah. You know, it's like how.

00:02:29:08 - 00:02:31:22
Speaker 4
A blind person, like. Like, touch you.

00:02:31:22 - 00:02:40:18
Speaker 1
You know, you're to rent a space in, like, a studio in the metaverse. Stephen Will that be allowed to do this? Yeah. Yeah. I own, like, an.

00:02:40:18 - 00:02:43:10
Speaker 2
NFT platform or something to have a lobby.

00:02:44:04 - 00:02:46:15
Speaker 4
Yeah, that's a really bizarre one. I think.

00:02:46:15 - 00:02:48:05
Speaker 1
If you follow.

00:02:48:05 - 00:03:07:01
Speaker 4
Enough of, like, what Zuckerberg's doing right now, it's really easy to feel like he's a little wacky, but he's quite visionary. And in reality, if you if you look like 20 years ago technology too, now and then you create that kind of similar projection, nobody 20 years ago would have been saying the things that we have now are just like commonplace or normal, right?

00:03:07:08 - 00:03:12:07
Speaker 2
I just don't know if it should be commonplace or normal what he's coming up with. That's a great question.

00:03:12:11 - 00:03:17:04
Speaker 4
But I think what should be and what's going to happen, it's kind of like you're fighting a river.

00:03:17:04 - 00:03:20:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, If he doesn't do it, then somebody else is going to capitalize on it.

00:03:20:13 - 00:03:25:14
Speaker 4
Totally. So yeah, I think it's going to happen regardless. So yeah, we'll see.

00:03:26:04 - 00:03:42:19
Speaker 1
His is podcast on Joe Rogan. I listened to when I was in Florida driving a couple hours and I don't know, I don't know if I believe that he's a good guy after that or but it almost seemed like he was trying to make people think he's the really good guy on that because that's such a big platform.

00:03:42:19 - 00:03:56:20
Speaker 1
It was kind of strange. I had mixed feelings about it because part of me was like, Oh, like he really does care. And Mike is a good guy and like, he doesn't mean for us to be like, so weird. But the same time like, well, what a perfect opportunity to make more people think you're not crazy. I don't know.

00:03:57:10 - 00:03:58:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, totally mixed feelings.

00:03:58:12 - 00:04:02:01
Speaker 2
Is Zuckerberg making people weird with this technology or people just fucking weird?

00:04:02:18 - 00:04:03:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think it's probably.

00:04:03:20 - 00:04:24:03
Speaker 4
Maybe a bit of both. There's a really good quote by I think it's Solzhenitsyn who says good and evil is a line that crosses through the middle of everybody's heart. It's something like that paraphrase. But generally with any of these things, it's really easy to vilify people, especially people in the media or, you know, in that have so much like attention capture.

00:04:24:11 - 00:04:47:12
Speaker 4
But I think an interesting thing with Zuck was that Facebook actually denied to abide by China's like freedom of speech policy, you know, like suppressing it. And so they're not actually allowed there. And for a corporation that big, I think that's actually kind of pretty unprecedented. So it's pretty easy. Like I'm sure like anything, you know, I'm not perfect.

00:04:47:12 - 00:05:01:04
Speaker 4
I've got some some bad sides to me and some good sides. And I'm sure Mark's probably in the same thing, but I thought that that was a big one because that's pretty not status quo for corporations to actually do things like that. So I don't know. Yeah, I thought that was interesting.

00:05:01:16 - 00:05:08:22
Speaker 2
I wonder if he's sold like a different version to them that they run on their own?

00:05:08:22 - 00:05:11:08
Speaker 4
Do they don't need that they already created Tik-tok.

00:05:11:17 - 00:05:14:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's true. They've infiltrated everything like it's.

00:05:14:22 - 00:05:16:05
Speaker 4
Already been done, man.

00:05:16:11 - 00:05:20:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. I refused to download that. So it's.

00:05:21:07 - 00:05:22:19
Speaker 4
Yeah, that's already happened.

00:05:24:02 - 00:05:35:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, but the stuff you grant permission from, it looked at the permissions that TikTok allows access to. Man, I accidentally.

00:05:35:04 - 00:05:35:20
Speaker 2
Clicked like.

00:05:35:20 - 00:05:51:12
Speaker 4
I was scrolling Instagram and tik-tok. Like ad popped up when I was going to like something, you know, and it and it accidentally clicked on it and then it brought my phone to Tik Tok, and then it just instantly exited out of it. And then I started getting ticktock notifications all the time and I was like, What the hell?

00:05:51:20 - 00:05:56:08
Speaker 4
And then like a week later, I realized that tick talk had actually been downloaded on my phone.

00:05:56:17 - 00:05:57:20
Speaker 1
Well, I'm just just.

00:05:57:20 - 00:06:15:15
Speaker 4
Clicking the add button, which like, almost sounds like dystopian, like 1980s weird stuff. You know, where I did not download it, didn't do anything, was never on my phone. I've never had an account accidentally clicked on an ad and all of a sudden it was downloaded on my phone and I started getting notifications all the time. I was.

00:06:15:16 - 00:06:19:01
Speaker 4
I'm pretty sure that's not allowed. I don't know like how that happened.

00:06:19:01 - 00:06:22:18
Speaker 1
I think that's already illegal. But like. Yeah, no consequence, right?

00:06:22:18 - 00:06:25:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, no consequence. There's no way someone's going to get busted for that.

00:06:25:19 - 00:06:26:04
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:06:26:09 - 00:06:36:16
Speaker 2
Pretty crazy. Well, good thing we're all climbers and we're not obsessed with social media. And we get to we get to spend our time doing things we love instead of.

00:06:37:02 - 00:06:39:22
Speaker 4
I'm a little obsessed.

00:06:40:04 - 00:06:41:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.

00:06:41:17 - 00:06:46:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Lately, actually, since I've been back in recovery and I've been on my phone a lot more, and I hate it.

00:06:47:09 - 00:07:10:11
Speaker 1
You're not there to screen all day or work out. Yeah, it's so weird. I mean, what do you do for work? I work at a logistics company now in Reno. It's called it's logistics. And boy, been doing it for about three months. Kind of just a huge change of pace for me. But it's something that going to have like really good financial stability and a lot of make basically a just a lot of money potential.

00:07:10:11 - 00:07:22:07
Speaker 1
And it's not a forever thing, but it's kind of a means to an end where I can, you know, acquire some actual capital and stuff. But staring at screens all day and I'm not used to that at all.

00:07:22:22 - 00:07:30:22
Speaker 4
Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. Although it's good, like you're maybe you're resting. You can go climb harder, you know, a little bit of you can manage that.

00:07:31:16 - 00:07:33:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. Pull a little extra energy.

00:07:33:04 - 00:07:41:10
Speaker 4
Although that stuff's really tiring, you know, if you like, you don't think on it, But if you actually just sit at a desk all day and you do something like, it's very tiring.

00:07:42:02 - 00:08:04:01
Speaker 1
Like it's mentally just exhausting. Like, physically, I've been going to bed well at night because I'm so mentally tired, I think. But I mean, if physically I'm not doing as much as I have in the past at all, but I'm somehow sleeping better. That's great. Yeah.

00:08:04:01 - 00:08:28:20
Speaker 2
Nice. Well, I mean, I guess we can just get getting things rolling here. Yeah. I mean, Colby, welcome to the show. It's been like you said, we've been working on getting you on the show for quite a while now. Yeah, And, yeah, I'm pretty excited about the topics we're covering today because we haven't covered them yet. And that is, you know, stewardship around development and how we all can play a part in helping maintain our areas.

00:08:29:03 - 00:08:32:10
Speaker 2
So yeah, really awesome to have you. Welcome to the show.

00:08:32:10 - 00:08:48:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, definitely glad to be here. And I'm also excited to finally made it. On considering that yeah, we're kind of positive around for quite a few months since I met you down at Nevada Adventure Rentals and that things have kind of finally come to fruition here. Yeah, absolutely.

00:08:48:22 - 00:08:49:04
Speaker 2
Man.

00:08:49:15 - 00:08:50:10
Speaker 4
Yeah, hundred percent.

00:08:50:10 - 00:09:02:11
Speaker 2
Man Yeah. Usually how we get started here is just kind of get a general picture of who you are, how you found climbing and kind of what your childhood was like and how a general synopsis on what led you to the sport.

00:09:03:14 - 00:09:27:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, so I was born in Truckee, California. I lived there till about the third grade, and then my parents moved myself and my little sister out to loyalty in California. They bought 20 acres in the Sierra Valley, and my mom kind of following her passion of horse riding and kind of built like a barn and new house out there.

00:09:28:14 - 00:10:01:19
Speaker 1
So I really grew up in the countryside and graduated in a small class out there of 32 kids. There was actually two other Kobe's in that class, which still is mind boggling considering you don't come across a lot of Kobe's. But that was interesting. And then, yeah, kind of the way that I got got into climbing was through a a program through the county out there, through the Substance Abuse and Prevention program funded by the state of California called Wilderness Challenge.

00:10:02:09 - 00:10:25:09
Speaker 1
It had been around for many, many years, founded kind of by a guy. His name is Don Yagi, and he wasn't really involved as much in it when I got started with it. But the principle of the whole program was just to get kids in the county out doing something up to four days a week throughout all summer free of cost.

00:10:25:16 - 00:10:54:05
Speaker 1
If you were a resident of the county of Sierra County. And so basically the program would take kids climbing, hiking, swimming, all kinds of different things four days a week all summer. And that's how I got introduced to climbing. First first days climbing ever were up at Yuba Pass on Highway 49 by the Sierra Buttes. And yeah, I was terrified at first, but you know, grew into loving it.

00:10:54:05 - 00:11:02:16
Speaker 1
And yeah, in hindsight, such a cool opportunity to have have that program free of cost and give us something to do out there.

00:11:03:05 - 00:11:03:20
Speaker 4
All right, real quick.

00:11:04:03 - 00:11:10:07
Speaker 1
Modify your jacket. Yeah, the jacket. Yep. Okay. Anyone noticed?

00:11:10:20 - 00:11:13:13
Speaker 4
Yeah. 5 minutes later, he's like, Yeah, we got to kill your shirt, man.

00:11:14:09 - 00:11:19:20
Speaker 1
You know, you got to kill your pants, dude. Sorry. Is actually naked in the studio.

00:11:21:02 - 00:11:29:12
Speaker 2
In the office. It's literally what you just said. He has Dwight, like, in his underwear on a radio call in the break room.

00:11:29:12 - 00:11:31:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good episode.

00:11:33:00 - 00:11:51:13
Speaker 2
Right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, circling back. So you said this was a the program that got you into climbing. Was this just like a like, did you have to be in a certain kind of group of society to be involved in the club? Or was it like a public thing that anybody could join? How did you come across the group?

00:11:52:07 - 00:12:15:04
Speaker 1
Yes, it was very much a public thing. Anyone between ages of, I think 18, 18 years old in the county of Sierra County were eligible to participate in the program for free. Basically, your parents or whoever is looking out for you could sign you up for the program and you'd get called each week and kind of pick and choose what you wanted to do.

00:12:15:04 - 00:12:31:02
Speaker 1
So you couldn't go every day, but you could kind of pick and choose like, Oh, I really want to go climbing this week and I'll pass up a day of, you know, going hiking and swimming to be able to execute declining day. And then yeah, it was it was just a lot of pretty big age group, you know.

00:12:31:03 - 00:12:56:01
Speaker 1
But, but anyone in the county was able to do it and you know there wasn't was not going on out there there was organized like you could find your own fun, find your own exploration out there. But as far as programs and things that keep kids really on track out there, it was pretty few and far between. So this program really, really stepped into place there to help a lot of kids.

00:12:57:19 - 00:12:58:01
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:12:58:19 - 00:13:01:04
Speaker 4
Right. Where you yourself like a troubled youth?

00:13:02:17 - 00:13:21:11
Speaker 1
No, not really at all. Honestly, I did stay out of trouble completely for the most part. And I, I mean, I had I had free range. My parents basically told me from the time we moved out to loyalty, and they're like, well, as long as you're not getting in trouble, you can basically do whatever you want. And my mom bought me a four wheeler like I have pretty young driving this big quarter round.

00:13:21:11 - 00:13:40:17
Speaker 1
And I mean, I would drive it all the way to town. I would drive it on the back roads, my friends, dirt bikes, all kinds of stuff like that. And I mean, I had free range basically, but I was, you know, never getting in trouble so long as I came home on time and I didn't get in trouble at free range out there, though not really troubled youth at all.

00:13:40:19 - 00:13:44:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, just try to stay on the straight and narrow for the most.

00:13:44:20 - 00:13:51:17
Speaker 2
Part were there are a lot of other people in that group that kind of seemed out of that category.

00:13:51:17 - 00:14:16:18
Speaker 1
I think when I started the group, we were all kind of too young to really fit into that narrative right away. But I think what it did is steer a lot of a lot of those kids in a direction of realizing, you know, positive things they can do with their time, positive things they can can pursue in life versus sitting around and, you know, getting into drugs and alcohol early, which a lot of small towns have a lot of problem with that.

00:14:17:16 - 00:14:19:07
Speaker 1
So it really helped out, I think.

00:14:19:15 - 00:14:39:23
Speaker 2
Max, it sounds a lot like the the program that Al Burgess kind of taught back in England, back in the day, just like offering sports to kids who obviously need it and to have an outlet and stuff. And it was pretty cool to hear how much it changed those kids lives. So it's cool to hear that something like that is out here as well.

00:14:41:01 - 00:15:12:12
Speaker 4
Yeah, 100%. I think it's something that's really easy to look at that's benign. Oh, it's just a program for kids or something. But speaking for myself, I consider myself a pretty troubled youth. And whenever I had sport or structure in my life, there's always this this aspect of connecting with nature, with being really physical, with exercising, keeping busy, all those kind of things are incongruent with doing, you know, things that are not necessarily as good for you, whether that's just hanging around drinking or getting into trouble, whatever it is.

00:15:12:21 - 00:15:35:07
Speaker 4
So it's kind of almost it's just, I don't know, this this like osmosis that you're just like you just naturally absorb these things that are just inherently kind of good and awesome for you in certain aspects, right? So yeah, I think it's really important and easy to overlook. Do you think you would have gotten into climbing if you hadn't have been introduced into that course?

00:15:35:07 - 00:15:59:06
Speaker 1
You know, in hindsight I think I still might have. And this is mostly going into the fact that my high school girlfriend, her parents were climbers. So I feel like we still would have come across each other, you know, considering the amount of people in the school at the time. And I think I still probably would have gotten into climbing through that avenue maybe just a couple of years later.

00:16:00:00 - 00:16:11:08
Speaker 1
And I mean, I didn't get to get seriously into climbing until that relationship and going climbing with her and her parents. But but I was definitely introduced to it first with that program.

00:16:13:00 - 00:16:28:04
Speaker 2
Talk to us a little bit about your progression. Like, what were these classes teaching you? Did you start climbing in those classes? Did you They teach, tried like talk to us a little bit about the evolution of of kind of how you progressed as a climber, as a as a, as a kid.

00:16:29:01 - 00:16:58:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. So through the program it was very basic. Honestly, they, the guys that actually ran the physical, technical ropes side of the climbing course were different from the people that ran the every day Wilderness Challenge Group. They actually outsourced to a third party, a guy named Mike Selby, his company up on Mt. Rose Sky Tavern area here in Reno, actually runs a leadership training course called Project Discovery, where he has like a full ropes course up there.

00:16:59:10 - 00:17:19:11
Speaker 1
And he would actually be contracted to do all the the rope stuff. And, you know, we would basically show up in top rope all day. They would have us laying with ATCs with, you know, six kids holding the brake strand of the rope as backup just so we're all engaged and, you know, all have some sort of commitment to the whole thing.

00:17:19:11 - 00:17:52:17
Speaker 1
But yeah, it's very basic. You know, you'd either be bailing with the bunch of help or you would just be top roping. So we did. They never really got to teaching us any kind of lead climbing or any trad stuff, nothing like that. It was mostly it was pretty basic, the whole experience and kind of set up just around a day activity of just find something to get the kids out there doing it, which I obviously took, took a little deeper liking to it and obviously followed it a little further than that.

00:17:52:17 - 00:18:15:17
Speaker 1
But yeah, it didn't start out super technical. It wasn't till till later. And then in in high school, the beginning of high school that I actually started to really get into it and slowly progressed into instead of rock climbing to wait for winter and snowboarding, it was like surviving the winter to then look forward to go and rock climbing all summer.

00:18:16:05 - 00:18:18:20
Speaker 1
But it all kind of shifted a little later on in life.

00:18:19:14 - 00:18:23:09
Speaker 4
How old were you when that shift happened?

00:18:23:09 - 00:19:03:17
Speaker 1
Honestly, the major shift, I would say, was probably 2013, my senior year in high school, and then 20 1415 for sure. I got hurt skateboarding a couple of times. I rolled my ankle, so I quit skateboarding because it put me out for a good portion of the summer for two summers in a row by quit skateboarding. And then I was still snowboarding a lot, but it was kind of around that same time, probably around 2015 or so, that I, I really kind of pivoted to where climbing was my main focus and snowboarding was like something I did when the snow was good.

00:19:03:17 - 00:19:06:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, I would say that that sums that up pretty well. Were your.

00:19:06:14 - 00:19:17:12
Speaker 2
Girlfriend's parents at the time more of a catalyst and mentors to getting you out into that area or did you more take it upon yourself to teach yourself how to how.

00:19:17:12 - 00:19:39:22
Speaker 1
To climb? I was definitely a mix of both. I don't think they necessarily taught me a ton that I didn't know already at this point because I had been doing a lot of self teaching and and hanging out with another mentor, a guy that I had met out in the lake space in area of California, a guy named Bill James.

00:19:39:22 - 00:20:08:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, he really was the one that started teaching me around the same time around that 2015 or 2014, even a little earlier, actually, that range, he started really teaching me, you know, the real technical side of it and being a true mentor, even though I was still getting out with, you know, my girlfriend's parents at the time, it was it was more Gil, I would say, that started teach me that real technical aspect and show me what it really means to be a rock climber, not just someone climbing rocks, if that makes sense, you know?

00:20:09:08 - 00:20:24:09
Speaker 4
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I've never met you. I've never climbed with you. You know what? What is this progression kind of been like? Like what? What kind of a climber you nowadays? What is. What's your forte? What kind of climbing are you doing?

00:20:25:20 - 00:20:56:21
Speaker 1
Yeah. You know, honestly, the progression for me has always been fairly slow and fairly calculated. I've never really jumped in over my head too often. And that just comes from you know, kind of my personality like to have control, you know, a lot of situations and and not wanting to feel out of control or obviously get hurt. So progression, I feel like it's been been fairly slow compared to a lot of people I've actually seen around me throughout the years that have started climbing later than me.

00:20:57:13 - 00:21:23:14
Speaker 1
But you know, it really started out like, you know, climbing the single digits, the five age five nines, all of a sudden, you know, top rope and a ten B was like, wow, I like climb ten BE And, you know, I really did slowly I just been slowly working up to the grades for, you know, the last ten plus years now where it's like, you know, I'm finally kind of getting to the point now where climbing 512 is like getting fairly easy.

00:21:24:00 - 00:21:43:11
Speaker 1
But I feel like it has taken kind of a long time. But I think that's totally fine because I've had so much fun no matter what, throughout this whole journey of climbing. And the grades have always been, you know, something I definitely look at, but it's always been on a personal level of just trying to see where I can push myself to.

00:21:43:11 - 00:22:00:10
Speaker 1
It's not not to keep up with anyone, not I don't post anything on social media really at all about my climbing or anything. I don't even post any of the routes. I put up a mountain project. Nothing. I kind of do it for myself almost 100% and you know, that's why I think I've worked up the grade so slow.

00:22:00:10 - 00:22:16:15
Speaker 1
But it's been like a very natural progression and something that, you know, I'm still really proud of and you know, on a really good day, I can climb, you know, 513 just depends. And yeah, it's been a very slow progression in my eyes, but not a bad one.

00:22:17:01 - 00:22:41:09
Speaker 2
I think that it's such a prime example of I don't know what this podcast was like founded on. It's like there are so many other climbers out there that, you know, I always been I've always labeled them as sleepers. That's always been my my tagline for them, just people in the background crushing, establishing routes out into the community, but doing it all.

00:22:41:09 - 00:22:42:05
Speaker 1
For.

00:22:43:08 - 00:23:08:10
Speaker 2
Another reason. Then, you know, maybe you call it fame or recognition or, or social media or for whatever the ego might be. I just find it, you know, there is definitely a split in the type of people that, you know, choose one direction or the other. And, you know, just because of the nature of the way that you choose to progress your sport of climbing the world just doesn't know about it.

00:23:08:11 - 00:23:28:21
Speaker 2
And that's kind of the point. And so I just I don't know where I'm going with this. I just I think it's cool that we've got someone that, you know, might even be reluctant to be on a podcast talking about the things that he's done in the climbing community. Like it's just important to get these people a little bit of recognition because they do add such a unique thing to the sport.

00:23:30:02 - 00:23:51:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I could add to that real quick to like the so when I met Gil James out there, I actually met him at Uber Pass. I was out there top roping with the high school friend of mine who got into climbing around the same time with me. We're kind of taught to start out top roping, trying to kind of break in the lead and just taking things very slow and having a lot of fun with it.

00:23:52:09 - 00:24:14:20
Speaker 1
But I go introduce me to a guy that both you may or may not have heard the name Al Swanson. He used to climb a lot with John Backer. He's he's kind of the epitome of like the sleeper or he has done so much stuff, climbed with so many famous climbers like helped put up some, you know, really prolific routes that a lot of people have heard the names of.

00:24:14:20 - 00:24:38:15
Speaker 1
But he he doesn't talk about it unless you really dig and ask him. He doesn't post things on social media. He never sought out. And, you know, even though he probably could have and should have been sponsored back in the day. And, you know, so I feel like I kind of embodied that that persona in the climbing community where it's like, you know, you can just do it because you want to do it.

00:24:38:15 - 00:24:57:15
Speaker 1
You don't do it to make anyone else think you're cool or or show off for anyone or or share with anyone. It's kind of like these things are are for you. And I feel like I really did embody that kind of persona, and I feel like I got that from hanging out with Bill and Al a lot as a kid.

00:24:57:15 - 00:25:06:05
Speaker 1
And like, right when I was really starting to get into climbing, you know, that kind of definitely impacted on me a lot more than than a, you know, I probably realized.

00:25:07:13 - 00:25:46:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that if I were to judge the safety, when you choose one route or the other, I would say that the sleeper route is probably an almost definitely the safer approach to climbing is. I know. I mean, I don't know about you, Max, or because Colby is definitely not on this route. But I you know, I ran a climbing channel for a little bit and I definitely remember like multiple times saying like, I need to climb something harder or I need to climb something that's more appealing to the audience, you know, like getting that outside pressure that I'm creating for myself.

00:25:46:13 - 00:25:47:07
Speaker 1
To.

00:25:47:19 - 00:26:05:18
Speaker 2
Take on more risk. And I think that without that stimulus or without that pressure, I think that you probably would be making more rational and safer decisions when it comes to like, what route you're choosing, what area you're choosing, how you know, how far out on the limb you're going to really go.

00:26:07:08 - 00:26:29:13
Speaker 4
Yeah, I think it's a great point. And I think it is it is interesting as someone for myself, I really like producing content and kind of promoting and sharing climbing at the world. I've definitely been in a similar position to you, Kyle, where I've tried to do something or film it and I'm kind of shaking my head and gone like this wasn't actually safe or wasn't right, or I was feeling pressured to like, make something look cool, right?

00:26:29:19 - 00:27:05:15
Speaker 4
And so whereas the aspect that Colby, you're more so talking about, there's this kind of purity to it and you don't have to question motivation or drive or anything at all, right? It's just kind of this holistic, pure thing for yourself, for you to, to experience and to be really present with. You know, most people don't like meditate and then post a picture of their face and put it on Instagram and be like, I just had a great meditation session or something, you know, and yeah, it's like this, like there's this more pure thing that you've done just intrinsically.

00:27:05:15 - 00:27:11:07
Speaker 4
It's your self, it's your own motivation, your own drive. So there is something interesting about that for sure.

00:27:12:19 - 00:27:33:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, and I think that has drawn me closer to like, especially speaking on safety. It's definitely drawn me towards routes that are, are hard but are safe. Like I'm not I'm not trying to climb hard routes that aren't safe. Like I want it to be safe. That's where the fun comes from me, where it's like I can be up there, be scared.

00:27:33:13 - 00:27:50:14
Speaker 1
But at the end of the day, I'm like, I'm still safe climbing. I'm not going to hit a ledge and break my leg. I'm not going to hit the ground. I'm not going to rip eight pieces and deck like, you know, I to me, the fun of climbing comes from the fact that it's such an unnatural position to be in.

00:27:51:05 - 00:28:21:00
Speaker 1
But you're safe the entire time. As long as you're following your system, you know, your dial, you have a good partner, you know, you're doing all the right things. That's what I really like about climbing. It's like you can really mitigate the risk, but still get kind of the high off of being a little bit scared. And I think I think I've definitely followed that path, you know, a lot where it's I'm not seeking out routes that are scary or notoriously dangerous to prove anything like I that doesn't that doesn't do it for me.

00:28:21:00 - 00:28:24:10
Speaker 1
Honestly, I don't I don't care for that.

00:28:24:10 - 00:28:30:12
Speaker 2
And here we are with two broke, four broken ankles and a guy who climbs 513 with no injuries.

00:28:30:22 - 00:28:38:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. So you are.

00:28:38:01 - 00:28:59:04
Speaker 2
A 513 climber. You are also a route developer. What where was that transition? You know, because I think that it's a rare path to take. I think that everybody in climber is always, you know, I did it for myself to just like you start looking everywhere around the world for first ascents. Like you see a rock that's like 20 feet tall.

00:28:59:04 - 00:29:17:18
Speaker 2
And do you think there's a on that? You know, you start you start sussing out with your buddy. You just kind of go out there, going to check it out. And then I'd say most of the time, 95% of the people never end up doing anything. No real project, anything. You're just, you know, walking on the Giants. Whatever the phrases you use, following in the footsteps of everybody else who's built routes for you.

00:29:18:02 - 00:29:24:07
Speaker 2
So what was the shift for you like? How did you choose to start being a developer?

00:29:25:14 - 00:29:51:05
Speaker 1
So once again, hanging out with Al and Gill out in the Sierra Buttes area and out in sheer county in general, those guys AL especially, had always developed routes. Gill had always developed routes growing up in. That's kind of how they were brought up and climbing and a lot of the stuff that they had always focused on. So I kind of just again embodied that right away.

00:29:51:05 - 00:30:20:18
Speaker 1
And, and it jumped on board and they started teaching me stuff. And I mean, I started doing that pretty quick when climbing became, you know, more of my focus. I really I've been developing routes almost since I took on climbing more full time and really considered it my main hobby, which I think is also rare, like just having really good mentors that are are people that know so much and can teach you so much about not only climbing but like developed what it means to develop a route.

00:30:20:18 - 00:30:45:02
Speaker 1
And like the ethics of being at the Crag. See, I've really been developing routes the entire time I've been truly climbing. And you know, it started out kind of filling in routes at local Crags that, you know, my might have been only five, eight or five nine, but I was, I would still fill them in because I just thought it was fun to do so.

00:30:45:02 - 00:31:26:19
Speaker 1
And in the last, like I would say, probably three or three years last three years, I've really, really kind of shifted my attention to either finding like completely new crags that have decent access that have just been somehow overlooked or not found, and also stuff that's, you know, ten plus and harder. And not to say I won't I'm not filling in warm ups or really good easier routes, but you know, I've definitely been more selective just given how it is expensive, it is time consuming, it is a lot of work and a lot of commitment to do it, and I want to get the most out of it for myself that I can.

00:31:27:10 - 00:31:48:07
Speaker 1
So I have shifted focus a little bit on on the routes that I, you know, pick and choose to develop. But yeah, I definitely owe it to Allan Gill for teaching me how to develop routes and develop develop them properly and do a really good job at it and make them climb really well. And you know, kind of the whole package there was was them for sure.

00:31:49:08 - 00:32:03:05
Speaker 4
When you're developing a route, is it something more akin to your climbing where it's this like this internal thing, or is that something where you actually think, no, I actively want this to be like something I'm giving back to the community?

00:32:04:16 - 00:32:32:01
Speaker 1
It's definitely both. And then in the last probably a year and a half maybe, yeah, a year and a half, I would say it's definitely transitioned like more 5050 than ever where I'm like, you know, what's the point of putting in all the hard work in developing these areas? If me and my friends are done with them in the next year and a half and then, you know, they get dirty again and no one's out there climbing them, no one's enjoying them.

00:32:32:01 - 00:33:05:05
Speaker 1
And you know, we're not going to keep going back to climb the same routes year after year after year. So, yeah, the shift has definitely focused a little bit more on on giving back in a way, and I never really realized it until, you know, the last try this last summer. But it's definitely for me in the beginning, 100% and like I want to get the most out of an area or a cliff or whatever it might be for myself and my friends, kind of use it as a place to escape and a place that we can go to be alone.

00:33:05:05 - 00:33:21:16
Speaker 1
And it's quiet and we have our own our own special place for a while. But, you know, as time goes on, it's like eventually, you know, these spots I'm going to share, I'm going to put them out there, you know, kind of starts word of mouth, like telling people, hey, share with your friends. Tell them to share with their friends.

00:33:21:16 - 00:33:46:00
Speaker 1
Like just get word of mouth going and eventually a lot of these areas I've been sharing are slowly going to, you know, end up on Mountain project and, you know, a little more presence where, you know, anybody can kind of find them. But I definitely hold on to a little bit of the the personal side of it longer longer than a lot of route developers and a lot of places, I would say.

00:33:46:18 - 00:34:13:05
Speaker 1
And a lot of that is, you know, I'm not looking for the clout. I'm I'm looking for an area that I can enjoy and really have a good time out with my friends. It's it's special and yeah, but at the same time, I don't feel like I own the place or it's just mine. But I feel like, you know, I might have put in the work to find it and I'm going to enjoy it by myself for as long as possible, you know, within reason, because I think that's important too.

00:34:13:05 - 00:34:22:02
Speaker 1
Or, you know, it's hard to go find a place you can climb alone and have peace and quiet and kind of feel as unspoiled. I mean, I would a.

00:34:22:22 - 00:34:49:15
Speaker 2
I would agree. I think that, you know, I've never heard someone really explain it like that to me before. And I think I have a little bit more found respect for, I don't know, the process and for just kind of like putting myself in your shoes, I'd probably do the exact same thing. And yeah, you hold onto it as long as you want and then, you know, if you build it sustainably, it's going to be around for decades.

00:34:49:18 - 00:35:00:14
Speaker 2
And so there's no way you can bogart it for that long, you know, But I think every developer probably has the right to enjoy it for as long as they want. In the beginning.

00:35:00:14 - 00:35:29:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I would say also that it goes down to two. Yeah, you're not going to not going to bogart it, hide it forever. But at the same time, I mean, kind of how I'm just reiterating again on what Kyle spoke on, but having, having an area like that you can go to and be alone. It's been not only alone, but alone with your friends or just the people you want to be around.

00:35:29:18 - 00:36:06:14
Speaker 1
It's, you know, it's been a huge part of my life and a huge part of part of me being able to kind of get away from from everyday life. So I think it it's got a fine line, though. You know, you don't want to be a complete gatekeeper, but you don't want to want to overshare. I feel like initially either, at least from my perspective and you know, I'm also not going to just turn someone away if someone comes asking like, hey, like I kind of heard about this area, it's not like I'm going to going to tell them, you know, to kick rocks.

00:36:06:14 - 00:36:23:21
Speaker 1
I'm going to I'm going to let them in on it and, you know, tell them about it, but kind of tell them, hey, you know, this area is kind of still being developed. It's still quiet. Like just respect it and, you know, appreciate it for now and appreciate the fact that, you know, maybe you're now able to come climb here and have it also be a spot you can get away.

00:36:23:21 - 00:36:49:04
Speaker 1
And it's kind of quiet for the next couple of years or whatever. So it's it's kind of a strange thing and it has so many different different avenues of thinking about it, especially in the climbing community. You see a lot of debate on mountain project forums and different stuff of people complaining that someone's keeping an area and then other people are complaining that people are blowing an area up too fast when it isn't ready for that.

00:36:49:04 - 00:37:16:10
Speaker 1
So I think it's very subjective and needs to be taken on a case by case basis on the area and just kind of give respect, especially if it's in a brand new area. Just give respect to the people that did find it and did put in that initial work and just realize that, you know, you could go do the same thing because there's tons of good rocks out there that you could go find and have your own little special place to hang out with your friends for a year or two.

00:37:16:10 - 00:37:19:15
Speaker 1
You know?

00:37:19:15 - 00:37:39:02
Speaker 4
Yeah, that's really interesting. I've never really thought about it that much. I think, you know, living close to Squamish, there's so many really, really popular, really busy places, But I definitely very much enjoy when I do get to a crag and there isn't really, you know, a group of people watching you climb or you have a little bit of solitude.

00:37:39:02 - 00:37:45:03
Speaker 4
There's something really nice about that. So yeah, no, I think that's a that's a really interesting aspect for sure.

00:37:45:18 - 00:38:12:13
Speaker 2
I think that this kind of like ties into a little bit about kind of like choosing, you know, describing this, this route developing process really from from start to finish because I don't think a lot of people really understand the depth in which, you know, which goes into the process of developing either an area or a route. So you know, when you're choosing an area to develop, it seems like you've got two options.

00:38:12:13 - 00:38:38:07
Speaker 2
You can either develop a route on an area that has already seen development, or you can choose to develop an entire crag or an entire area that has yet to see any development. Do you have like a lean towards one or the other and talk to us a little bit about adhering to, you know, ethics of an area where routes have already been established?

00:38:39:17 - 00:39:13:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. So a lot of a lot of my motivation and a lot of what I'm looking for when I'm looking to put up routes. I mean, it all stems from from creating something. And I've really enjoyed that kind of creative, creative expression that developing a route has given me within climbing. So I would say what I've always looked for, you know, I've been climbing at places like the Emerald's in Bowman's and Bowman here in California and in even spots like Coldstream.

00:39:13:12 - 00:39:38:20
Speaker 1
And there are, you know, you start to look around as you've been developing more and more routes and you realize, oh, like there could actually be a decent line or a decent route right there, or no one's touch this section and a lot of that is like the vision and just different people looking at the rock in a different way, where I found a lot of really good routes that I've put in at places that have a lot of routes already developed.

00:39:39:09 - 00:40:01:13
Speaker 1
And that's definitely motivating. And that's fun because, you know, people are going to start climbing them right away. You know, they're going to get done. You know, they're not going to just fall into being obsolete, especially when the area already has kind of a reputation. So I've put in half my routes I've put in have been lands at Crags that people have overlooked some seriously good routes.

00:40:01:13 - 00:40:37:22
Speaker 1
Like like two years ago I put up an extension at a really popular route at the Emerald's. The route was called Charlie and the Stick Factory put up by a friend of mine, Brad Johnson. And it ended at this little roof and up this head wall that was overhung ended at the bottom of that. And I added just I simply added three more bolts to the top, worked it a little bit, cleaned it up really nice, and it takes the root from ending three quarters of the way up the cliff at 11 eight and topping out the crag at 12.

00:40:38:10 - 00:41:00:22
Speaker 1
And it's like to me it was like I was a really simple, obvious thing to do, but no one had done it in the last ten years. So I kind of feel like Artemis feels really surprised. It's like, Wow, I was the first one to think about that and go do that. And then, you know, another part of me is like, Well, this no one else had the vision, I guess, you know, they just overlooked it.

00:41:02:09 - 00:41:27:12
Speaker 1
So definitely putting up routes and existing areas has huge benefits and it is something that still attracts me. Like I'll still go places and be like, Wow, like there could be right there, but see, a little over half of my focused on the last 2 to 3 years has been to find just completely new crags that have decent access where I'm not having to hike an hour or or more.

00:41:28:00 - 00:42:04:21
Speaker 1
You know, ideally these things that I'm finding are actually fairly roadside. It just comes down to a ton of Google image searching and using guideposts and private property boundary overlays on guys like it comes. It's the whole process. But you can find out, you can figure out ways to get to spots that have potential that haven't been developed and, you know, I'd say eight times out of ten you hike up to a crag or somewhere you're checking out to develop and it's just like, well, it's too short or it's crappy or the approach is too far.

00:42:05:20 - 00:42:34:00
Speaker 1
So you check it off the list. You have to go all the way to basically go to the base. You check it out, it's bad. Okay? You just mark it off the list. You don't have to go back then. But when you do find these spots that are off the beaten path a little bit, have decent access, have really good climbing, like that's truly like really motivating because I can start creating a brand new area like, you know, kind of clean up the base a little bit and start figuring out where the routes are going to be.

00:42:34:00 - 00:43:00:10
Speaker 1
And putting an anchor is starting to top rope stuff put in bold, start naming the like name the area, name all the routes. It's just a really fun process from start to finish. And and then that kind of ties back in to having that area all of a sudden that now you can hang out at where whereas filling in routes at the existing crags and and the region.

00:43:00:10 - 00:43:41:17
Speaker 1
Yeah you have you have your own thing you're working on there but you're not alone. There's people around, there's people climbing everywhere. Those are still popular crags. So it all styles of developing in both time I'm going to call them regions of developing where it's like, you know, crags versus unknown crags have their have their draw and have their benefit and, and yeah, I think both of them, both of them have been really important in my whole development phase where, yeah, I get really psyched on one or the other just depending on kind of what I come across, honestly, just depends.

00:43:41:17 - 00:43:48:11
Speaker 4
Do you put in like, like benches or some kind of area you can like congregate in like you feel like relaxed at, at all ever.

00:43:48:11 - 00:44:12:20
Speaker 1
Now I'm a little bit I try not to be too intrusive with what I'm doing at the base, but also it's like, okay, like you're clearing out some bushes and small trees and you look around, okay, there's thousands of bushes and small trees like I had. Just to be honest, I don't care. I'm clearing. Not out. Yeah, I'm not going to go, you know, fold chopping down big grain trees, that kind of stuff.

00:44:12:20 - 00:44:37:09
Speaker 1
But, you know, I've chopped down big bark brushes and mahogany and just different things like that that are there kind of everywhere. And I mean, it just improves the crags so much and it's not like it's some protected tree. I mean, I've chopped down onto decent sized bushes and odd trees and stuff like it just makes it safer and makes it more comfortable.

00:44:38:18 - 00:44:59:06
Speaker 1
One of the crags I developed in the last I guess it was two summers ago now, I tried so hard to leave this one. Think it was like a buck brush, like kind of a mahogany bush thing, but it was right under the lower cracks on this route that I was putting up. And you always felt like you were going to fall on it.

00:44:59:06 - 00:45:20:16
Speaker 1
So I would take one limb off and then it would still kind of be weird. I take another limb off and eventually we just chop the whole thing down and just shrug it off and threw it over the edge of this boulder because it just didn't need to be there. And there's tons of them around there. It's not like we really destroyed, you know, something that's rare or special.

00:45:20:21 - 00:45:26:07
Speaker 1
I guess someone's bragging. I disagree with that for sure, but. Sorry. Yeah.

00:45:26:16 - 00:45:28:05
Speaker 4
No, no. Fair. Totally.

00:45:28:22 - 00:45:42:14
Speaker 2
What about trail development? Like, are you guys looking for the path of least resistance? Are you guys, like, shoveling out a trail, like, or is it just you walk it so many times that it ends up being a trail?

00:45:42:14 - 00:46:15:12
Speaker 1
So, yeah, a lot of the first crag that I actually developed that needed its own new trail was a little crag downstream at Bowman that me and my buddy David Riley developed 2019, I believe. Yeah, fall 2019 we had the whole crag wrapped up was only about three routes, but up to like middle 512 and that crag kind of was a, it's a satellite crag of like the Bowman area.

00:46:16:20 - 00:46:33:15
Speaker 1
And we kind of realized, wow, like it's not really a trail. I hear like we know how to walk out here, but no one else is going to be able to just walk out here. They're going to get lost. So it kind of started just, you know, stack in a couple cabins here and there and just walk it, trying to walk the same exact line every time.

00:46:34:08 - 00:47:08:04
Speaker 1
And then, I mean, honestly, kind of kicking stuff out of the way. We never that trail. We never really fully buffed out, which I've I've been meaning to go back and do that, to be honest. But the other trails of most recent one that I did that needed a trail part of the way there, it follows a road down for about 20 minutes, like a real extreme four wheel drive road, and it peels off of that for the next 5 minutes to get to the base of the crag.

00:47:08:18 - 00:47:32:05
Speaker 1
And that trail is like getting pretty beat in just from people walking out there. And then I did go back there and make a better trail that stays dry in the spring because it gets pretty marshy out there. I put in a better trail and actually kind of cut that fully in like through the through the base growth of all the ferns and grass that was growing out there.

00:47:32:05 - 00:47:55:14
Speaker 1
I spent like two days just chopping and really solidifying a trail so that people don't keep walking everywhere out there, which was starting to happen. And yeah, that itself is a lot of work to put in a trail like that. But once it's in it, it solidifies one path and keeps thing, keeps people on the right track to get to the crag.

00:47:55:14 - 00:48:14:08
Speaker 1
So not getting lost because no one likes to get lost when they're going to try to go climbing like it is kind of kind of a discouraging thing, especially just to go crabbing or something. It's not like you're way out in the country. You just walk in to go, Do you know some single pitch climbing. You don't want to be getting lost and in the bushes and the swamp.

00:48:14:08 - 00:48:19:17
Speaker 4
So there's like one weird person listening right now who's like, I love getting lost.

00:48:20:11 - 00:48:27:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. For the adventure. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00:48:27:13 - 00:48:41:04
Speaker 4
So, okay, so if you're you're in this area, maybe you've spotted a line or something. What's really, you know, the process? Because I think a lot of people might have an idea or a thought process of what's going on. But you know.

00:48:41:05 - 00:48:42:06
Speaker 1
What actually.

00:48:42:06 - 00:49:01:16
Speaker 4
Is the process of of finding a line and bolting a line and where did you learn how to bolt the line? Like, you know, are you just was this trial and error or your mentor showed you everything about the mechanics of, you know, kind of the bolts and how deep to drill, You know, just answer, answer as you see fit.

00:49:03:10 - 00:49:30:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. So it it definitely starts I mean, I'm always looking for quality rock. I'm not ever trying to bolt, like, really loose stuff. I'm not trying to bolt ledges stuff. So I'm looking for, you know, the good, obvious, natural, clean lines, which is harder to find at crags are developed because that's kind of what everyone leans towards trying to find and trying to develop.

00:49:32:00 - 00:50:01:06
Speaker 1
But I feel like a lot of intuition from this also came from some other guys that I kind of met later in being serious about climbing. Obviously, Al Gill taught me a ton about this and a ton about how that works, but I feel like I really double down on it and kind of kind of learned a lot from my friend Mike Carvell and my friend Josh Hornick, who developed.

00:50:01:22 - 00:50:24:11
Speaker 1
They've developed hundreds of routes and, you know, hundreds of hard routes as well. I feel like they really kind of opened my eyes to like, you know, okay, this going to be a truly like a good line, like a harder line. People are going to seek out as an objective, seek out as, you know, something really worthy as like a tick list climb.

00:50:24:14 - 00:50:47:00
Speaker 1
If they're visiting the area. And so I would say, yeah, I've always kind of started looking for routes that are a little bit steeper, routes that are a little bit bumpier and harder. And yeah, they, they help me double down on that and just learn what it was too to find the good lines that are, are going to be able to be morphed into something that is quality.

00:50:48:00 - 00:51:19:12
Speaker 1
And then as far as like the actual technical process of starting to develop, for me, I'm putting most of my stuff like probably 95% of the stuff I do is going to be top down like I'm going to the top. I'm wrapping in above, like right above where I've already like scoped out. Okay, this is the line right here I'm going to wrap in you feel the hold kind of start cleaning stuff a little bit right at the top and figure out like, okay, where's where the holds lead to?

00:51:19:12 - 00:51:40:18
Speaker 1
Where's a natural spot to put an anchor? Like, what makes sense? Like typically I'm putting the anchor on the face, no rope drag, like you have to lead the thing. Just make sure a better route, especially when you're lower off top roping you don't want. I don't ever. I tried to put my anchors over the over the edge ever, like back from the edge.

00:51:40:18 - 00:52:06:12
Speaker 1
I mean, because you just get rope drag, it gets difficult. So, yeah, that starts there putting the anchor in. But the anchor in top rope the route, clean it. I mean, as many times it takes, we're top rope and a route to clean it, figure out. So we start climbing it from the bottom and do what's called chalk dotting where it's like so climb up.

00:52:06:12 - 00:52:34:16
Speaker 1
And I'm like, okay, where if I was leading this thing, where do I want the first bolt? And so you take like a big ticket chunkier chalk and you rub it on the cliff, like in a little circle, like, you know, that's where I want the first bolt. And then you climb. It's like, okay, like right here is a good spot, good clipping stance like this where I would want the second one and you do that all the way until you get to the anchor you put in and you know, you kind of repeat that process, have a couple of friends top rope it, or if it's just you in a buddy, you know, you

00:52:34:16 - 00:52:59:13
Speaker 1
just take turns top roping it, figure out, okay, it is clipping spots. Make sense. Are we cleaning it off enough? You know, each of you top ropes. It brings a brush up. Brush and a new hold every time that the other one didn't brush in it. It's a it's a huge process and it takes time. But I think that's how you get the best routes not to discount, you know, old school ground up a sense and and that style.

00:52:59:13 - 00:53:22:19
Speaker 1
But you know there's a lot of big run outs and and bag clipping stances on on old school routes it just takes away from the fun and I just the stance I've taken is I'm I'm already out there with a drill putting in fixed hardware. So it just needs to be fun and safe and two questions.

00:53:22:19 - 00:53:32:13
Speaker 2
First one, how are you getting over the edge if you don't have a tree or a natural anchor to build, to get to the face, to put.

00:53:32:13 - 00:53:55:14
Speaker 1
There's always a natural anchor something. Okay, I have gotten very creative. Yeah. Those times where I mean, you're putting in four or five pieces spread out and all string together wove hedge after closed edge just to add some sort of redundancy and then tie off a dead bush and then you're like, I'm going to go over the edge now and hopefully it's going to be okay.

00:53:56:11 - 00:54:18:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's the scariest thing in climbing for me, is doing that kind of thing. And trying to just get over the edge initially. Yeah, but I've always been able to find a natural anchor some way to get to the top. It's got to get really creative sometimes down. And then as far as, you know, just elaborate a little more on what Max was asking about drilling the the bolts and and stuff.

00:54:18:14 - 00:54:45:16
Speaker 1
Like, I mean, I'm always using stainless hardware. Typically I'm bolting and granite, so I'm just using wedge bolts. If it gets really steep, then I'm going to put in five piece stainless wedge or a five piece stainless steel bolts. That way they just they tend not to loosen up as much and the pull out strength is a lot greater.

00:54:47:02 - 00:55:07:17
Speaker 1
But that comes with practice too. You just got to size the bolt up to the drill bit and I usually pair like a little piece of tape and it's like, okay, I'd drill it this deep and stop it, clean it out, and then pound the bolts in and tighten them down to whatever spec is is required by the manufacturer essentially.

00:55:07:17 - 00:55:13:01
Speaker 1
And it gets a lot of work.

00:55:13:01 - 00:55:35:22
Speaker 2
I know there's always been the big, you know, ethical dilemma of hand bolting versus machine drilling. Talk to us a little bit about the reasons behind the ethics of one versus the other, because it seems to me like we should all just be drilling the whole hand. Bolting thing doesn't make any sense to me.

00:55:35:22 - 00:55:46:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, guys, so this is a hard one. This comes down to everyone's personal feelings on the matter. And I mean, there's obviously places like national parks where you have to hand drill.

00:55:46:23 - 00:55:59:13
Speaker 2
Y, though, like what is the allure of hand drilling? And other than that was how it started. Is there is it better for the rock? Is it like other than making it a more harder and complicated, time consuming process? What are the benefits?

00:56:00:15 - 00:56:25:21
Speaker 1
I mean, the benefits of hand drilling? I mean, I'm just going to flat say like I don't see the any benefit to hand drilling over. Using a drill like a hand drilling creates a worse hole that can actually create a more compromised ball because there's so much inconsistency and so much time put into pounding one hole that you know the drill could be wobbling more.

00:56:25:21 - 00:56:52:12
Speaker 1
The hole is not as symmetrical. It can cause the the bolt to not tighten down properly, positive fail more prematurely there. And that's not all the time. But it has been proven that drilling creates a better hole and a better bolt placement than hand drilling, which has become an issue in places like, you know, Yosemite and, you know, show up as 16 bolts at one belay.

00:56:53:18 - 00:57:16:05
Speaker 1
And it's like, well, there could have been two really good half inch glue ends, but no one's going to hand drill a half inch hole. It's not going to happen. No one's going to drag glue up there, especially if they're having a hand drill. It's like if you had two half inch glue ends on 1 billion on a ledge in a cemetery on El cap, you wouldn't have 16 marginal hand drilled bolts or whatever.

00:57:17:04 - 00:57:35:01
Speaker 1
So that's definitely created like and I know this has been talked about before, I can remember where, but this exact thing where there's 16 bolts up here and they all kind of suck, so the next person just adds another one so they have their own. And like that's happened in a lot of ways. I can remember who talked about that, that might have been on a normal cast.

00:57:35:01 - 00:57:42:14
Speaker 1
Actually. That sounds like Chris Farley has talked about that. I'm pretty sure it was on there. Yeah. Yeah, I could see the whole.

00:57:42:14 - 00:58:00:13
Speaker 2
Thing is all. It seemed so ridiculous to me. It's like we're so drenched in staunched in the ethics of where we came from that we're blinded from the benefits of just moving on. So I've always it's always been just a huge question mark for me.

00:58:00:13 - 00:58:16:21
Speaker 4
The only consideration I could think of is potentially noise. You know, if you were like some purist or something there and you hear like a drill, like and you're like walking through the forest, that could be the only thing. Not that hand drilling would be much quieter, but there is something more natural about the sound of it, I think.

00:58:17:19 - 00:58:22:07
Speaker 4
But yeah, as far as a practicality standpoint and everything. Yeah, I do understand.

00:58:22:07 - 00:58:45:14
Speaker 1
So yeah, and another thing, it's not like there's that many climbers out there that are going to be drilling and putting in bolts where I feel like a lot of bolts in places like Yosemite and wilderness areas would have been replaced if unlike entire routes that are either rusty or whatever the case might be, no one wants to go out there and risk getting in trouble with a drill.

00:58:46:00 - 00:59:07:16
Speaker 1
And on the other side, no one wants to go out there with with a hand drill and rebuilt an entire route to try to bring it up to modern standards. So the route just ends up sitting in a state of unsafe ness, basically, where these bolts are all rusted and they could actually break and you could actually get seriously hurt or die and.

00:59:08:23 - 00:59:09:23
Speaker 2
Not going to do anything.

00:59:09:23 - 00:59:26:16
Speaker 1
And no one's going to do anything about it because while you're going to go to jail, if you take a drill in the wilderness area in the national park, or you're going to spend the next week trying to rebuild this thing and drilling and it's going to take you, you know, 20, 30 minutes, a hole to drill with by hand.

00:59:26:16 - 00:59:42:04
Speaker 2
And with the with the drill bit. Could you repurpose the holes that were drilled before and with the hand drill, you couldn't Is there like would you have to rebuilt like new holes the entire way with the handrail versus the drill bit? Or can you repurpose them?

00:59:42:11 - 01:00:14:02
Speaker 1
I think you can still repurpose, assert like a kind of it's like a especially a quarter inch or one of the older, smaller bolts. You can definitely still repurpose with the hand drill. It's definitely difficult because the drill bit kind of tends to want to bind up all the stuff that I've seen and done as far as repurposing a hole that's primarily been done with a power drill.

01:00:14:02 - 01:00:26:20
Speaker 1
Yeah, I don't know. I haven't heard much about doing like re bolting and using the existing hole with a handrail, but I know it can be done. I do not know exactly how difficult.

01:00:26:20 - 01:00:33:22
Speaker 2
And the other option is to pull, build a new hole, chop the old bolt, and then a slew of it. Is that correct?

01:00:34:03 - 01:00:51:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, just like kind of what I've always done is either just a little bit of a proxy, which I mean, typically you're not having a proxy with you. So I'd say what I typically do is like you take a little tube of that cement patch that you kind of can squeeze out and you kind of squeeze it in there.

01:00:52:12 - 01:01:15:03
Speaker 1
And then another trick that my friend Brian of mine taught me is you take out like a little pebble or something if you can find one and you kind of smash it like it's a little bigger than the hole, you kind of stick it on there and you hit it with your hammer and it kind of like shatters the natural rock color into the cement that you just put on there.

01:01:15:03 - 01:01:21:05
Speaker 1
And it actually hides. You mean you can barely find the things? It's actually really impressive. That's cool. It works. Well, that's awesome yeah.

01:01:22:00 - 01:01:25:04
Speaker 4
Keeping the rock pristine.

01:01:25:04 - 01:01:47:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. And to be honest, I have I've chopped a couple of bolts and not reused the holes and not had anything to patch with and put in new bolts near it. And it's not the proudest work. It's not the best work, but it took it from, you know, being an anchor 1200 feet off the ground that was completely rusted.

01:01:47:14 - 01:02:21:05
Speaker 1
And honestly, I was terrified to wrap off of. So I came back and replaced it didn't have anything to patch it with at the time, like just committed to just making it safer. And it was like, okay, well, sorry. I mean, and that that's kind of shitty. But at the same time, I don't think it's anyone's going to complain when they get to the top and wrap off brand new half inch stainless anchors compared to wrapping off completely rusted three eight inch anchors.

01:02:21:05 - 01:02:30:20
Speaker 1
Like I just feel like to me the trade off it's like, okay, hopefully I can patch it in the future. But the trade offs are just too great.

01:02:31:06 - 01:02:32:03
Speaker 2
To get the job done.

01:02:32:04 - 01:02:57:07
Speaker 1
I Yeah, and it's really it's not the best work. It's not it's kind of shoddy, but, you know, I own up to it and to say that I chose the chose a safety over the esthetic purpose in that situation. And I know what it feels like to have gotten to that exact anchor and had to wrap off. And I've talked to other friends that did it months after me that they were like, Wow, yeah.

01:02:57:07 - 01:03:18:01
Speaker 1
Like, Dude, I got to that anchor too. And I was just blown away that every anchor was good all the way up till you get to the very top the row, and then you have to wrap off just this old rusted anchor. And it and so I just, like I said, I, I went for safety over esthetics and, you know, I would, I would make that decision again in that in that circumstance for sure.

01:03:18:05 - 01:03:20:22
Speaker 1
Yeah. I don't I don't care that much about it.

01:03:22:01 - 01:03:43:11
Speaker 4
Yeah, I'm absolutely by no means some kind of a climbing purist. Obviously, if there's a beautiful crack, you shouldn't go and put throw bolts all the way up next to it or something. But at the same time. Yeah. I mean if it's, if it's going to be safer, there's older bolts or some kind of stuff like that, you know, what is that old story?

01:03:44:05 - 01:03:56:11
Speaker 4
I forget the original like climbing duo in Yosemite, and he chopped off all the bolts because they're like, bolted align. I forget the name of of the two, but but yeah, it's all royal.

01:03:56:11 - 01:03:57:11
Speaker 2
Robbins Yeah.

01:03:57:20 - 01:04:25:23
Speaker 4
Exactly. Yeah Harding and Robbins 100% and but but yeah you know I don't and it's easy for me to pass judgment because like, I don't even climb hard enough in general the, like, appreciate some of these beautiful esthetic lines and stuff. It's just, yeah, I would rather to be safer. So you know that I think it makes more sense ultimately it's like the interesting discussion of have you did you fall that article on snake dike or that woman fell and like had to amputate her leg because she was so mangled?

01:04:27:12 - 01:04:37:05
Speaker 4
You know, and and I think I think even some of the original bolters of snake dikes said like, yeah, you know, they were they would have been okay with people going and adding more bolts to it. Um.

01:04:37:13 - 01:04:38:01
Speaker 1
You know.

01:04:38:12 - 01:04:54:16
Speaker 4
At, at a certain point it is what's the point of just having these kind of things where if you make mistakes, you're kind of going to die, like in adventures, in adventure for sure. But if there's already some bolts in it, I don't really get the point, you know, like there's already an anchor there. Anchors, faulty or not.

01:04:54:16 - 01:04:56:08
Speaker 4
Good. Okay, let's put it another angle.

01:04:56:14 - 01:04:59:23
Speaker 2
Like, let's let's choose a free solo or let's just fucking bolt it. You know?

01:04:59:23 - 01:05:31:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It is a very, very strange thing, though, because and this what this brings up to me is there's a route up at dawn or summit here that had so much drama going around it the last couple of years. It's called Disciples of the New Wave or Disciples a New Era. And it's like one of the two and it's primarily bolted.

01:05:31:11 - 01:05:56:14
Speaker 1
But the first 20 feet of it took like a stopper and then like a 0.75 cam. Like really easy, easy pieces. The place you're already at Snow Shed wall, which is primarily a track climbing area. So and it just made sense to kind of leave it as a mixed route. But in the last couple of years, it had gotten like the bottom two bolts have gotten added to it.

01:05:57:12 - 01:06:16:23
Speaker 1
And a lot of people's thoughts on that were like, one, you're already at snow shed. Like if you're here, you probably have a rack. It's like there's a sport climbing area. It's primarily a track climbing area. And then two, which is where, you know, the conflict comes in of because I agree, I want things to be safe. I want them.

01:06:17:15 - 01:06:45:15
Speaker 1
What's the point is already bolts. Why should it be run out and you break your leg even though it's already got bolts on it like that. Just doesn't make sense to me. But what this brought up to a lot of people and even made me think about it a lot was like, well, all of a sudden you kind of like lowered the barrier to entry on that one route where it's like instead of, you know, maybe having some trad skills to climb that route that was bolted at the top and the crutches.

01:06:46:01 - 01:07:03:00
Speaker 1
Now you just only have to have quick draws. Like there is a weird fine line there of lowering the barrier to entry and, and, and kind of giving things to people without making them work for a little bit. And it is really hard to find a balance on that, honestly, because no one, you're never going to agree on.

01:07:03:00 - 01:07:24:23
Speaker 1
It's like politics is never going to agree on. Not everyone's going to agree on what that buried entity should look like or what the accessibility should look like between like, should you have to have a rack to climb a primarily sport route or should it all be bolted? It's it's a very complex thing that I don't think anyone's ever going to agree on fully.

01:07:25:02 - 01:07:41:20
Speaker 2
I think I think the difference here is that snake deck, there's no tread, there's no placements. It's not yeah, that's valid. It's not like you can't bring a trad rack up there in place and protect it, you know, rationally that you don't have the option. It's 50 foot run outs between bolts and that's it. And I've climbed it.

01:07:42:01 - 01:08:09:19
Speaker 2
It's fucking sketch and I get it. Like it was fun, but in my mind I was free soloing and it's like whatever mental calmness I had from clipping that bolt was completely emotional because in reality, if I had taken a whip at any time during that climb mode, it ended up with an amputated foot, most likely. And I think that the thing you're talking about with like mixed lines, I actually really like mixed lines.

01:08:09:19 - 01:08:39:03
Speaker 2
I love them. It was Sedona and there was a new a new crag that had bolts near the bottom. And then there was like this bigger limestone band at the top that had cracks in it. And you had to bring trad gear to to protect it or you solo through it and, you know, risk run out. And I really enjoyed that because, you know, I think the one difference with your example is that the trad is the trad placements are at the bottom, which makes it a little more sketch because if you don't know what you're doing in those things blow, you can break your legs.

01:08:39:12 - 01:09:05:22
Speaker 2
Whereas the roots that I was climb, the protection was placed higher up on the wall. So even if you did pull your gear, the bolts are going to save you from a ground fall. And so that kind of like mix throughout I really like and I think that if you're building her out and there's an A and a like a choice between a trad placement versus putting a Boulten and you get to choose, you should always just choose the trad placement, even if it's mixed.

01:09:05:22 - 01:09:28:09
Speaker 2
That's my opinion. I think that like those kind of roots are super fun for me and I think the only caveat to that is like, okay, so is the trad placement. Like are you relying on like five brass nuts in a row or something like that? Like, yeah, okay, you can put in the tiniest gear possible to try to get through it, but at that point now we're just it's just too unsafe.

01:09:28:09 - 01:09:29:13
Speaker 2
Like, let's just put the bolts in it.

01:09:29:21 - 01:09:31:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like there's a legitimate.

01:09:31:10 - 01:09:52:07
Speaker 4
Safe, natural feature that you can put protection in that would have, like a safe fall, you know, for the most part, I totally agree with you. I think I think if it's a if it's capable of being naturally protected. Well, you, you should leave it personally that that's a personal feeling based on like enjoyment and also just Yeah.

01:09:52:07 - 01:09:56:01
Speaker 4
If it can naturally be protected then then then why not, right.

01:09:56:19 - 01:10:18:19
Speaker 1
Yep. Yeah. And I think to circle back to something we touched on a little earlier that I didn't elaborate on, that I feel like I can add a little bit different perspective here. You guys kind of spoke on like the ethics of one area versus another, and I think that's where a lot of these feelings come into play, where it's like a spot like Bowman or The Emeralds.

01:10:18:19 - 01:10:43:00
Speaker 1
There's plenty of routes at those spots. They could be mixed routes, but they are 100% bolted because the entire area is just a sport climbing area. That's just how it got developed. It's the way that those people kind of envisioned it and the way they pushed it. And I mean, why would you in in that case, why would you have one route that's really good.

01:10:43:23 - 01:11:11:18
Speaker 1
That's a mixed route. So now you have to if you to do that route, you have to carry an entire rack up there just to climb one route one instead. Okay, let's just bolt it and then you can climb every route here with, 12 drops. So that I mean, to me that makes sense too. It's like, okay, sport climbing or you broke this like somewhere like Donna's more of an old school area and always been more traditional values in that respect.

01:11:11:18 - 01:11:20:10
Speaker 1
Or it's like a lot of trad routes. There's a lot of mixed routes that Donner there's some sport routes, a Donner, there's a lot of sport routes, a Donner, but.

01:11:22:02 - 01:11:44:02
Speaker 2
I think a prime example to the opposite end of the spectrum here is Eldorado Canyon and in Colorado, where it's like notoriously known for being dangerous trad routes like R's and X's, like bad gear run out to me. Like that's the kind of area where you start to ask, okay, like why? Why does it need to be so risky?

01:11:44:02 - 01:12:04:18
Speaker 2
Why are we setting up routes that are rated R and X? Like, can we just put the bolts in those sections that make it X? Like, do we have to risk a deck? And I think that just like you said, it's it boils down to who develops the area. It seems like those people are the the people who set the tone for the crag, and that is what we should respect.

01:12:04:20 - 01:12:26:01
Speaker 2
You know, if you don't want to climb there, don't climb there. But the people who developed the area set the tone. And I think that that goes a long way and I think that should be respected. And, you know, I don't think there should be some blanket rule that everybody has to follow. It's like if you're putting the work in, you're developing the area, you want to make an entire wall, it's filled with cracks and you want to bolt it.

01:12:27:00 - 01:12:34:16
Speaker 2
If you're the one developing the area and the wall, you're the one that found it. You probably need to get some heat. But I feel like that's probably your decision.

01:12:35:23 - 01:12:56:07
Speaker 4
Yeah, I agree with that. On some level. Kyle Like stylistically or climbing wise in your example, although I wouldn't be invited to climb there if that makes sense. But at the same time I can say that this doesn't match like my ethos or style of climbing and also appreciate that, you know, this, this place wasn't designed for me.

01:12:56:14 - 01:13:16:02
Speaker 4
You know, like those people put in their blood, their sweat, their effort, their money, their time. And You know, I don't think anybody's saying you can't go touch the rock or you can't climb here. It's just look, this has been developed in a specific style and way and don't go put 30 extra bolts on it. Yeah, I could I can totally get behind that.

01:13:16:02 - 01:13:18:05
Speaker 4
You know, there's no shortage of rocks. So.

01:13:18:20 - 01:13:43:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I want to add something that to something that I've always realized is because I was climbing Wall and me haven't been there in the last couple of years, sadly, since they made it a nightmare to get into the park. But it's like I'm, I was consistently, even the last several years climbing, you know, 11 plus 12 minus like pretty, pretty often.

01:13:43:17 - 01:14:05:06
Speaker 1
Like that's kind of my baseline. And then when I go to Twin Meadows, if I'm climbing five, eight, five, nine, like maybe five, ten, like I take a huge step back because it's kind of dangerous because it's this traditional established area where there are huge run outs and the routes are scary. And I mean there's plenty of five eight.

01:14:05:06 - 01:14:32:16
Speaker 1
So I've gone and done there even though I climb, you know, consistently a lot harder than that. I'm going and climbing five eight because I had to take a huge step back because of the area that I'm in. And I think that's something people should take into account. Also, like don't expect to go from let me use an example here like Echo Cliffs or something, which isn't even the softest spot around maybe Malibu Creek or something.

01:14:32:16 - 01:15:02:11
Speaker 1
I don't know, but don't expect to go from there down in Southern California or wherever, up into Twomey Meadows and get on some 512 slab route is I mean 512 and Malibu Creek versus 512 and Twin Meadows is I mean that's probably a different animal and people ought to realize that too. It's like you don't just grades aren't don't transition like, like that like you think they do I haven't climbed I don't think I've got to know if I've ever even let a 511 into me, to be honest.

01:15:02:14 - 01:15:25:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like maybe five, five, ten, couple, five, ten. But it's always go in there for the adventure. Multiple droughts. Yeah. Getting on huge run outs on five eight where it's like, Oh, I'm actually comfortable on this because I'm a confident, good climber, but still 50 feet run out and it's like, Well, that's kind of exciting. And in a new kind of way where I don't think I'm going to slip, but I mean, I'm sure glad I'm not on something harder.

01:15:25:18 - 01:15:40:05
Speaker 1
The taking a step back, I think, is important to realize. Like, you're not going to you're not going to show up to fly. Meadows or Yosemite Valley and have expectations of climb and where you climb at your local sport crag. Like that's unrealistic 100%. Yeah.

01:15:42:02 - 01:15:57:20
Speaker 2
So when it comes to actually deciding the grade for a route that you're developing, what like how are you making that decision? What are you taking into account when you're like deciding the grade?

01:15:57:20 - 01:16:38:15
Speaker 1
So I would say this is always a really difficult one. I haven't really developed a lot of grades that I haven't climbed. They're kind of confirmed already. I don't know if I've ever actually climbed an established confirmed 13 A, but have put up two now. So that was kind of interesting where I didn't know if they were actually that hard, but I actually, since I found them, I had the motivation where I really wanted to complete them even though they were harder than anything I've ever climbed before.

01:16:39:02 - 01:17:00:01
Speaker 1
But I was like, Oh, this is mine. Like I can be the first one to do it. And to me personally, that that meant a lot. And each time, like both those routes, the hardest ones I put up each time I finally sent them, it didn't feel that hard, like most projects do. And then instead of just being like, Wow, I finally nailed it.

01:17:00:01 - 01:17:16:20
Speaker 1
Like, I finally like, worked it into submission, gives you a different feeling unit feeling like, Oh, was it actually that hard? Like, Man, maybe it's not that hard. You start getting all this doubt, at least I do. It turns on all this doubting, Oh, that might not be actually that hard. I don't know. I didn't feel that bad today that now that I finally did it.

01:17:18:00 - 01:17:59:16
Speaker 1
But I think for for all the other routes I've done where it's, you know, five, 12, five, 11 tens and below, I've climbed enough routes in those grades. Right. I know what they feel like. And I can give it a really close speculation of where it's going to fall out with the majority of people. The main thing, though, is you want to have a couple of people or friends, couple of routes, you know, that I've put up at local Crags, but up on Mountain Project, kind of get a consensus and see where everyone else thinks of it.

01:17:59:16 - 01:18:43:07
Speaker 1
But yeah, it's definitely a very, very tricky situation because you learn so many intricate intricacies to a route as well. When you're the one that bolted it, you brushed every little hold. You understand it in a different way than you do when you just get up there and start trying to climb it. I've never, ever found so many different little holes and things than when I've put up a route like I've never, never been able to find all those unless I've actually put up the route and you do kind of break it down into your own style more in that sense, in a way, I don't know.

01:18:43:07 - 01:18:44:10
Speaker 1
I don't know how to explain it.

01:18:44:10 - 01:19:01:18
Speaker 2
Yeah, no, I make sense. You're basically talking about the advantage that you get as a route developer because you are going to. Yeah, you're going to be the one that knows that route the most intimately than anybody, you know, even someone that might project the route and take 20 burns on it to, to climb it, you're still going to be the one that knows.

01:19:01:18 - 01:19:38:20
Speaker 2
Oh did you get that like hairline crack on the left there, you know, like and so I could see that being an issue in determining the grade because yeah, you've got it so dialed that you're climbing the easiest way possible. And yeah, you might, might seem like it's soft. And so I think that yeah, like you said, I think peer review and getting a consensus is super important and I think that at least makes sense now where people are like downgrading or making routes, you know, because remember remember Max, we talked with Josh and he said that he purposely grades his routes like harder than they are.

01:19:39:02 - 01:19:40:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. So that they don't get down.

01:19:40:08 - 01:19:47:01
Speaker 2
So that they don't get downgraded and so that so they don't get no easier.

01:19:47:05 - 01:19:52:04
Speaker 4
Easier. I think it was easier. Easier, easier. Yeah. He always sand bags.

01:19:52:04 - 01:19:52:11
Speaker 1
You.

01:19:52:15 - 01:20:07:10
Speaker 2
Sand bags them on purpose. I never get downgraded and well yeah I think it was so that they never get downgraded. He's like he would he would always want to be the guy who people say oh it's harder than it was then be the guy where. People are saying like, No, it's easier than what you said.

01:20:08:02 - 01:20:13:18
Speaker 1
Mike will appreciate that. So that's. Or is it.

01:20:13:18 - 01:20:19:07
Speaker 2
Yeah I was always yeah, it's funny because then you get people who are like, yeah, I'm a59 climber and they're on it like, this is not a59.

01:20:19:07 - 01:20:21:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like, what is this? Yeah.

01:20:21:23 - 01:20:23:06
Speaker 2
Like this is not a59.

01:20:23:13 - 01:20:45:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. Funny story to climb with Mike KARVELAS put up tons of routes and Tahoe area. I've climbed routes with him that he's put up that he hasn't been on in years and he gets on them and he's all gripped. That is mine. He's like oh this thing's way hard. And I remember for 511 and it'll be up there just like, you know, laughing at himself for having sandbagged the thing.

01:20:45:19 - 01:20:48:07
Speaker 1
And it's a really hilarious situation.

01:20:50:06 - 01:20:52:10
Speaker 4
Sandbagging yourself four years later.

01:20:52:12 - 01:21:08:21
Speaker 1
It's like, that's great. You want him. And Josh wouldn't count the first 20 feet of routes in the grid. They'd be like, Oh, it's yeah, it's only ten B, but we don't we didn't count the first 20 feet. There's a couple of routes like that. All right.

01:21:09:22 - 01:21:15:19
Speaker 2
Last questions before we move on from just kind of like the actual establishment of.

01:21:16:14 - 01:21:19:02
Speaker 1
Of of of.

01:21:19:02 - 01:21:21:19
Speaker 2
Route developing. Yes, yes.

01:21:22:01 - 01:21:24:03
Speaker 1
Go back to that. Some like that's important.

01:21:24:12 - 01:21:48:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, right before we close this full circle back. Yeah. So my question types of anchors for the top. I've come across lots of different kind of anchors at the top. I don't know. They're called like Mazzy Hooks or open shots. You've got the chains like talk to us a little bit about the different choices, what you might use for one situation versus another.

01:21:48:15 - 01:21:53:05
Speaker 2
And maybe you're all time top choice for for developing an area.

01:21:53:21 - 01:22:14:02
Speaker 1
So my complete perspective and I think what's really transitioning to being the norm is anything single pitch that has a bolted anchor, whether it's a trade route or a sport route. You got low cross, you clip in the lower, you lower off.

01:22:14:02 - 01:22:20:06
Speaker 2
And this is this is like where you just take your on lead. Yeah. Whether it's and you just run your rope through them. Yeah.

01:22:20:06 - 01:22:52:02
Speaker 1
Whether it's you know the big green climb tech multi hooks which are the best or they're hardened high tech steel, they take a long time to wear out whether it's some sort of big steel carabiner, whether it's even just aluminum, like some old carabiners that are on there, that's not ideal in a high traffic situation, in a lower traffic situation, routes that don't get done that often, routes that only get done, you know, a couple dozen times a year.

01:22:52:02 - 01:23:15:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, you can those aluminum carabiners are going to last a long time. That's a cheap alternative. I've put those on tons of routes that I've put up, just old carabiners. I have like or found on, you know, lever beepers on bolts. I'd throw them up on these routes I've done because they're not getting that much traffic and they're going to last plenty long, but they're still something you can just clip and do lower down.

01:23:15:11 - 01:23:33:04
Speaker 1
You don't have to. No one has to go up, clean the anchor. It's just just run the rope through it. I mean, and I'm going to use Owens River Gorge here in California as an example, where every route there has Musyoka on it. I mean, you it's really hard to find her out there that does not have my Seahawks on it.

01:23:34:11 - 01:24:00:19
Speaker 1
And people you still see people going up with old it just there will be two people climbing together just a partner partner duo they go up and they're using a full on core to let creating an anchor like it just doing stuff that completely defeats the purpose of having the muscle of the muscle hooks are steel. They take a lot longer to wear out.

01:24:00:19 - 01:24:10:09
Speaker 1
You clip right into them, you lower off. You have one person who's probably going to top up after you and then you going to pull the rope. Not a big deal, honestly. Run it straight through the massage.

01:24:10:21 - 01:24:13:07
Speaker 4
And so you top rope off the muscle, you hook as well.

01:24:14:00 - 01:24:32:12
Speaker 1
If it's just me and one buddy and like we're going to do one. Like if I'm going to lead it, my buddy going to top rope, we're going to move on 100%. Yeah, because that's why they're there. It's and I'm sure I'll get backlash on this somehow. I don't care. Yeah, I do it all the time and I'm not going to stop doing it.

01:24:32:12 - 01:24:45:16
Speaker 2
I honestly do. I do the same if I come to Crag and I've got even like even if it's not my Seahawks and it's just like chains, if I'm leading it and I know my girlfriend or my partner is going to top rope it and then we're moving on.

01:24:45:20 - 01:24:48:17
Speaker 1
And they might not see pinch, they might not get to the top.

01:24:48:18 - 01:25:10:03
Speaker 2
They might knock at the top or they might not know how to dissemble and anchor. Like to me, if I'm doing one burn on a top rope, I don't have any ethical issue with just clipping into the hardware and just pulling the rope afterward. I think that where that line gets crossed is where if you've got like party of Six or and you're just running top rope laps on this thing.

01:25:11:08 - 01:25:30:11
Speaker 1
And there are ways to mitigate that wear and tear if you have that party six when it's still through the muscle, like you can especially, it's a hard with mushy hooks when it's usually like lately the standard is you have the two bolts. Each bolt has a quick link on it, and then each quick link has a massive hook hanging from the end.

01:25:30:23 - 01:25:47:01
Speaker 1
There's not a lot of length in that anchor system, whereas if you have a set of chains on each bolt, you can take like quick draw, clip it to the middle of the rope in between the two matches and shorten up. You can shorten that up a little bit on the chain and then the wear and tear is on the draw.

01:25:47:02 - 01:26:12:11
Speaker 1
All the last person has to do is grab the drawer and pull it off. That's very common. But the thing, the reason I'm going to get into the fact that I don't care about top roping off the mushy hooks is that it's a very modular system. You go up there with a six inch adjustable wrench and a new mass, you hook or two, you'll loosen the quick link.

01:26:13:05 - 01:26:44:04
Speaker 1
You take the old musyoka off, you put the new muscle here again, you tighten the quick link back up. It's good to go. You really have to know nothing about bolting to even do that job like and this is probably jumping ahead a little bit towards where you guys kind of wanted to go. I know, but everyone should just kind of anticipate like, yeah, maybe I'll have a set of mushy hooks or even a set of steel permeable inners or something that you can kind of leave the bottom of your pack.

01:26:44:04 - 01:27:02:15
Speaker 1
Oh, I just came across Anchor That really needs to be replaced. I'm going to replace this one today and do the whole climbing community a favor for the next couple of years because they're going to last a couple of years guaranteed even in high traffic areas like the steel anchors are going to last. So that that needs to just be more commonplace where it's that easy.

01:27:02:16 - 01:27:09:08
Speaker 1
I have a little wrench in a frickin set of matches in the bottom of your pack, and maybe you replace one set when you're out.

01:27:09:17 - 01:27:24:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that this roll goes would make most sense to go to who are regularly visiting the crag because definitely you're going to know. You're like, All right, these muscles are old, like you're regularly going to a crag and you know that these muscles are old.

01:27:24:23 - 01:27:25:17
Speaker 1
Like, do something.

01:27:25:20 - 01:27:49:13
Speaker 2
Do something about it. And yeah, and we'll dive into a little bit more about what our role is in route development and route maintenance. But before we jump into that, let's talk about the your favorite route that you've developed. And so I think this is really cool and unique. Is that your first 13 that you've ever climbed was a 13 that you developed, is that correct?

01:27:49:19 - 01:27:51:00
Speaker 1
Yes, that's correct.

01:27:51:00 - 01:27:54:05
Speaker 2
And so tell us about it's called Parabellum.

01:27:54:05 - 01:28:22:09
Speaker 1
Yes. So this isn't this is very interesting. The whole thing to me is such a special experience all the way down to all the time I spent there by myself working on the trail. I spent there the first day I found the crag time I spent there with good friends, significant others, people that played me. The whole process was basically an entire summer of just going to that one crag.

01:28:22:09 - 01:28:52:09
Speaker 1
It felt like. And it all kind of started just like I touched on earlier, looking on Google and kind of plotting a path of least resistance to get out to a crag where it made access not that bad. And this crag, actually it turns out you can see it from Interstate 80 when you're leaving the Bowmen and Emerald's climbing areas going back towards Reno, you can you can see this crag from the freeway.

01:28:53:01 - 01:29:28:05
Speaker 1
And so I walked out there one day in early June, late May of 2021, walked out there by myself, super heavy Packard drill. I had bolts, I had a rope, I had tried gear all in, all in one pack. I mean, the thing weighs £60. I'm just trudging out there by myself find this crag, find this route that is 35 degrees overhang, 85 feet tall on granite, has that mortal humans can actually easily hold on to.

01:29:28:18 - 01:29:51:04
Speaker 1
And I just got extremely excited. Like I was so motivated. I was like, this is what I've been kind of searching for without knowing it forever is something steep, something proud, something, something kind of badass, honestly. And so I and I put anchors on it by myself that day kind of wrapped into it with with my jumper and some other stuff.

01:29:51:04 - 01:30:24:03
Speaker 1
So I get back out but I had a wrapped into it and like, looked at the hold, checked it out just a little bit. It was like, Yeah, sure at that. I think this will work out. Like I said, put in the anchors got out of there that day, hiked out, was super motivated to go back. I went back with my buddy Clayton and honestly yet again shout out Clayton for fucking me and him all summer that year, couple of times a week after work, super hot out, we would just be trudging down there, going to work on this whole zone, going to work on that route.

01:30:24:16 - 01:30:46:23
Speaker 1
I think combined we spent like eight or 9 hours in harness just to bolt that thing. One day it got so steep, it just took so much effort and then yet we bolted it and kind of were standing at the base one and we had all fixed drawers hanging on it. We were looking out this thing and it just we both were like, Man, we might have got in over a head on this one.

01:30:46:23 - 01:31:21:05
Speaker 1
This thing is so steep. Like, I don't know if a welder actually climbed this. Like we might as we start our time. And we'd started working it, piecing it together and yeah, it took a long time, but we had a lot of good, good friends and significant others belay me out there and finally came together and I was able to send the thing that October and see like mid-October 2021, taking about a full all summer and, and some change of, of working on it.

01:31:21:05 - 01:31:56:19
Speaker 1
And like I said the day I sent it, I did it first try after having been gone for a week on vacation visiting my grandma in the Midwest and came back and did it first try, which was extremely surprising. But I didn't feel like it was 13 at the time. I just I had no idea. I was like, Maybe it's only like old C or D, which really doesn't matter, but just touching on those feelings I mentioned earlier where you kind of have that doubt and your, you know, that it's really hard, but suddenly you don't know if it's as hard as you thought.

01:31:57:19 - 01:32:23:23
Speaker 1
And then this last summer I shared it with a bunch of friends and yeah, Mike Carville's friend, Will Chen, Guy out of Sacramento, took a huge liking to this route. And, you know, it's super motivating for him. He's and he's in his late fifties, early sixties. I think he's in his sixties. But, you know, he's done pretty much every five, 13 in the entire area.

01:32:23:23 - 01:32:43:15
Speaker 1
And he was so excited to have a project. It was under it was about an hour from his house and that meant a lot to him. So he started projecting and then he kind of started telling me he's like, Oh, it's definitely 13, it's definitely 13. And then our mutual friend Tom Addison started going, and he's a guy is definitely hard.

01:32:43:15 - 01:33:02:06
Speaker 1
It's definitely hard. And Tom Madison actually took Nick Barry out there, which didn't even tell me that they were taking him out there. And yeah, it turns out Nick buried it second try, and I reached out to him on Instagram and it was just like, Hey man, I heard you got on my route. And I'm like, What do you think of it?

01:33:02:06 - 01:33:24:21
Speaker 1
Like, just how was it just kind of the general general talking points? And it was just was really gratifying just to hear him say like, yeah, it's like that will knock it down right at 30. And it's like an instant classic for the area. And you know, it's not something I was looking for at all by any means, but it's something I did appreciate and it did add this level of gratification.

01:33:24:21 - 01:33:46:00
Speaker 1
It kept that whole process kind of living on like this whole last summer, all these friends being stoked on all these friends going to climb there and be like, I'll do this thing's awesome. Like, that whole experience kind of lived on like through my friends, which I mean, that meant so much, and I never even realized how much that would have meant until it started happening where, you know, the process was kind of done for me in a weird way.

01:33:46:00 - 01:34:05:15
Speaker 1
But then watching everyone else get on it for the first time and watch everyone else start to climate and how much they loved it, Yeah, that experience lived on and that that meant so much to me. And it was really, really a cool, cool way for that. I felt like I gave back and got more out of it than I ever expected to which yeah.

01:34:05:15 - 01:34:31:07
Speaker 2
I think it's super, super, super cool. You got got like recognition and gratified for the route. Like the just the fact that it's like a classic and that the grade you chose was accurate. I think that that's a huge statement to just your ethics behind kind of what you're doing so that's pretty cool awesome accomplishment. I think that you know, I personally haven't heard of someone climbing their hardest grade, having it being route that they set up.

01:34:31:07 - 01:34:33:12
Speaker 2
So I think that's yeah, that's pretty awesome is.

01:34:33:12 - 01:34:34:22
Speaker 1
Pretty strange in a way. Honestly.

01:34:35:10 - 01:34:41:00
Speaker 4
That's really, really cool. Really, really unique and seems very meaningful.

01:34:41:00 - 01:35:13:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. And like I said, just that process living on through my friends and like there would be times I'd be out there and a couple of friends would come to try their out and I'd be at a Bolton or messed around with some other routes. I haven't finished out there and but the thing I was most excited about that day was to watch my friends get on this thing and watch them have fun on it, because it took so much work because I know how good it is and it yeah, it's just crazy and it's crazy how meaningful it was to watch other people enjoying it, and I never thought about it like that.

01:35:14:00 - 01:35:34:22
Speaker 1
I've never thought about a rule in such a way until like this route, until this started happening where people were really wanted to go down there and seek something out that I created. And that became almost the most meaningful whole thing about being out there is watching my friends have fun on It is really interesting. Yeah, a bit of a.

01:35:34:22 - 01:35:40:16
Speaker 2
Bit of a shift in terms of kind of your the reasons behind Yeah, behind setting roots in the first place.

01:35:41:10 - 01:35:58:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think I think kind of came full circle, you know, and I think that was really a cool learning moment for me and yeah, just cool way to appreciate appreciate the whole process without it just being about myself. Yeah, totally nice, dude. Yeah.

01:35:58:09 - 01:36:07:15
Speaker 2
It's awesome. Yeah. Congrats, man. That's that's like a lifetime achievement, especially you know, you compare everything to yourself, and that's just, like, so far out of my realm of possibility. So.

01:36:08:00 - 01:36:10:03
Speaker 4
Yeah, no, I'm absolutely clear.

01:36:11:09 - 01:36:28:10
Speaker 2
So let's talk a little bit about, you know, I'm not a route setter. You know, like I said, I've always joke, well, jokingly dreamed about kind of doing it, but, you know, it is it is a huge investment of time, you know, a huge investment of money. Like, I mean, what are you talking about? Like for a ten boat route?

01:36:28:10 - 01:36:30:00
Speaker 2
What are you talking about, an investment here?

01:36:31:02 - 01:36:47:13
Speaker 1
I mean, honestly. So, yeah, average routes, about ten boats. I mean, realistically. Yeah, especially around here. Everything's not super tall. I mean, I'm getting a little deal from from fix hardware. Honestly, Hopefully they don't cut that off Now it doesn't the American Pie.

01:36:47:13 - 01:36:51:08
Speaker 2
Club like and you reach out to them with your your idea for a project and they'll send you bolts.

01:36:51:08 - 01:37:14:12
Speaker 1
That sort of thing. I don't know about that. I know that the American Save Climbing Association will send you stuff for replacement. Greg Barnes Actually, I've been in contact with. He sent me a box of mushy hooks. I have a bunch of bunch of bolts that a friend got from him that my friend kind of passed on. He's like, I'm not going to I'm not going to replace anything.

01:37:14:12 - 01:37:32:14
Speaker 1
He's like, You replace stuff. I know you will. And but honestly, the average ten boat route ten bolts is probably you're talking you know, it's probably like 60 to $100, honestly, depending on what kind of deal you're getting on the hardware.

01:37:33:16 - 01:37:57:01
Speaker 2
So, yeah, I mean, it's not it's not a small chunk of change. And if you're developing an entire area, we're talking hundreds of dollars and yeah, countless of time. So when it comes down to us, the people who aren't developing routes, like talk to us a little bit about what our real realistic expectation could be on how we can provide, you know, an assist to the developer of an area.

01:37:57:09 - 01:38:00:08
Speaker 2
What can we do to help maintain the area?

01:38:00:08 - 01:38:35:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, I would say the the biggest thing that like the average climber can do that, you know, either shows up to a brand new area or shows up to an existing area is just being willing to kind of make an active mike attempt to replace those those lower off anchors or do the things they can do or try to reach out to the people that you can see on Mountain Project that have put up these routes and send them a message on even just be like, hey, like if I can, you know, send X amount of money.

01:38:35:00 - 01:38:54:02
Speaker 1
And it really does come down to monetary like, unfortunately, but no one's doing their shit for free. One's doing this on their own. It's, there's no I compared it with Kyle the other day as like the poop theory. Like dog owners always talk about the poop very like, you know, poop. Very. To pick up your dogs, jump off the lawn there.

01:38:54:04 - 01:39:13:21
Speaker 1
No anchor bolt. Very like it comes down to them. It has to be monetary stuff. Not going to be like always acquired for free. So it's like just reach out these people and offer to help and be like, Hey, what can I do to help? Like what needs to be done with my skill set that I can do?

01:39:13:21 - 01:39:35:18
Speaker 1
Like, okay, maybe you're willing to carry set a massive hook to my backpack and replace one the next time I come across it or Hey, I'll meet you the next time you're going to this crack, the kind of bolts and stuff, or maybe replace some things. And I kind of want to learn and I will, you know, try to do my best to help.

01:39:35:18 - 01:39:50:17
Speaker 1
And it really is a commitment. It takes time and you have to go out of your way to do it. It's not like like something easy to to do necessarily. But I mean, everyone's got to try to pitch in a little more for sure.

01:39:51:10 - 01:40:26:06
Speaker 2
And this can even come down to like trail maintenance. Like if there's a rock in the middle of a trail that clearly wasn't there before, like be the one to kick it out of the way that goes like with bushes and trail mean it's to like and then actually on the route you know some of the ideas that I you know we talked about is just you know if there's rock put a big x chalk mark on it so that the person next doesn't hold on or if it's safely removable, clear the area and, get rid of the loose rock and just like benefit the area as much as you can.

01:40:27:13 - 01:40:36:17
Speaker 2
I think, you know, the list probably could go on. It's just a matter of of having that mindset and just looking for ways to to better the area that you're in.

01:40:38:06 - 01:40:57:23
Speaker 4
Yeah, I know for here on the coast there's the Cedar Sky Group development phase two, I believe is what it's called. There's a go fund me. And so they raise money that way and I climb on Squamish, one of the local climbing stores. You can buy stickers and it's like $5 for a sticker, but all the money from the sticker goes to like a bold fund for, like, developers.

01:40:58:11 - 01:41:16:23
Speaker 4
So that's like, that's kind of a no brainer. You know, if you're climbing the area a whole bunch and maybe you're not actively participating and reaching out and stuff, you can help out. You know, it's it's free for you to climb, but it's not actually free. Like Someone's time and energy and money went into that to developing it you to be able to climb right Yeah.

01:41:16:23 - 01:41:42:15
Speaker 1
And that that's another part of like the cost to develop routes like not just a bolt it's like a lot of times that's multiple trips driving just to go work on the one route multiple days you know and time time is money, classic expression. But I mean if I spent three eight hour days there like, okay, well what's my time worth?

01:41:42:15 - 01:42:10:13
Speaker 1
And that's three, eight hour days I just gave away for free to put up this route. And obviously I'm gaining something from this on a personal level. Like I want to be there. But, you know, going back a little bit, slight back step, but like the realistic expectations, I don't like have if you see a new route goes in and then you go climate and it's still a little dirty, like don't complain, it just got developed like it's going to be dirty.

01:42:11:12 - 01:42:35:08
Speaker 1
And most of the time, especially at a crag like the Emerald's like this, actually a direct direct storage site side tangent here. But I put up a route, right? There's three routes in a row of five, nine, five, ten, five, ten, and then I put up another 510 that hadn't been done just right next to them. And first comment on Mountain Project after I posted as well.

01:42:35:08 - 01:42:55:07
Speaker 1
It still kind of stinks kind of dirty. It's just like what the routes have been there for like 20 years did, and then the first thing someone does does complain. They don't say thanks. They don't do any of that. They just complain and it's like, Oh, what's this? Obviously it's going to be dirtier than the rest, and it just takes a little time no matter what.

01:42:55:07 - 01:43:31:09
Speaker 1
Like, I'm not going to brush every piece of lichen off, but every piece of lichen and all that kind of weirdness will go away after 100 people kind of thing. Like, that's just how it works. All the classic routes people climb, they don't realize they used to be dirty. They were never as clean, you know, And that's a goes back to realistic but kind of touch more on base with what you were saying there, Max, for, you know, like a boat fund or a climbing fund, you know, the North Lake area here and in Tahoe.

01:43:32:19 - 01:44:08:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, the Greater North Lake area is kind of just it doesn't have much structure like has the least structure I've ever seen or any kind of maintenance or stewardship. It it's very strange. I'm a little jaded on it because, yeah, I get bitter time to time that people like, aren't contributing, aren't doing this, aren't doing that, but like there's no structure program around here that's ever like actually worked out and created something where it's like, yeah, we are getting bolts replaced on like kind of a systematic schedule or just with any kind of purpose.

01:44:08:08 - 01:44:24:08
Speaker 1
It it's always has been very dramatized and convoluted. We don't have much going on here. So that's I feel like I'm a little jaded sometimes in this area when it comes to route maintenance and stuff. So yeah, just touching on what you were saying.

01:44:24:08 - 01:44:55:14
Speaker 4
Yeah, I think fair enough. Right? It is an interesting topic and I think there is, at least in my estimation, more of a push to bring awareness to the community of, you know, I think that's what this episode is actually about as well, is, you know, what, what is this process actually like? What are the people who are behind the scenes not really seeking recognition but are essentially keeping the lights on, You know, You know, and you could you can do that for lots of minor things that society or you can do it for you rock climbing.

01:44:55:14 - 01:45:09:05
Speaker 4
Clark Gregg There's just there's lots of people doing things every single day kind of selflessly that are facilitating, you know, a lot of the things that people do. And it's really easy to have that go unnoticed. And it's unfortunate that it does, right?

01:45:10:05 - 01:45:11:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

01:45:12:06 - 01:45:55:02
Speaker 2
And I think that it's important to have like structures set up. You know, it's a bummer that out here nothing has really stuck. Just seems like, you know, it's like a no brainer. And like Mesa Rim is out here like. Why? Why aren't they setting up some sort of fund to help, you know? And I guess that's on like Mizoram would be like local gyms would be the tool to gather resources a.k.a cash but they need some sort of organized group to give it to and so maybe know a little bit of a lesson here is for people who have the vision to maintain in areas to come together and present themselves in a professional

01:45:55:02 - 01:46:08:02
Speaker 2
way to brands or to local community climbing gyms to seek support. And I think that with the correct presentation, it probably would be pretty well-received. What do you think.

01:46:09:01 - 01:46:32:05
Speaker 1
The thing that gives me Dell is all the little and I hasn't been that many, but and I cannot remember the name of the one. They tried to start up in Truckee for the North Tahoe climbers coalition or something. I don't know. It just it never turned into anything. It turned into drama and people being pissed off and just being haters.

01:46:32:05 - 01:46:54:13
Speaker 1
And I mean, I was asked to join it several times and denied because it just like I literally just even want to show up because it just was not it wasn't anything worth showing up to. And I was being a little, little presumptuous on that on that thought originally, but it ended up being the truth. Like it just then never turned into anything.

01:46:54:13 - 01:47:02:00
Speaker 1
No one did anything with it. And I don't know what they're doing now. I don't think they've done really anything. It's just strange.

01:47:02:10 - 01:47:08:02
Speaker 2
Just seems like there's a lot of older school, curmudgeonly people running the climbing seem in the back.

01:47:08:06 - 01:47:36:16
Speaker 1
And I think that definitely is true. And some of those people are really good friends of mine. And I mean, we've all got issues, but yeah, so most people are really good friends of mine and I know that that is the case. And one thing I wanted to speak on too, with regards to everyone kind of taking care of crags and and kind of trying to do the right thing is I've run across it a lot where I'll be out and I'll see or hear someone doing something that they just shouldn't be.

01:47:37:06 - 01:47:56:21
Speaker 1
And I've always been a very outspoken person or I'm not afraid to speak up like, Hey, like you shouldn't do that or Hey, why are you doing that? And I find a lot of times, even at the Crag with climbers who claim to be open, people claim to be good people, you know stewards of the land, this and that.

01:47:57:10 - 01:48:20:10
Speaker 1
Everyone is super defensive when they get you know. And yeah, you are getting maybe called out but maybe you realize hey I'm doing something wrong. Just don't be so quick to be defensive. If someone says, hey, like you shouldn't do that or Hey, you should do this. I just want to let you know, I mean, obviously they need to present it to you in a way that's not, you know, super confrontational or rude.

01:48:20:10 - 01:48:41:00
Speaker 1
But I mean, a lot of times of no does even matter. Like people just get get confrontational when, you know, others are trying to help them learn something very valuable. And sometimes, yeah, it's not easy because you're having to swallow a little bit of pride or, you know, admit, hey, yeah, okay, I don't know what I'm doing right now, but just being open to that I think is super important in these situations.

01:48:41:00 - 01:48:45:20
Speaker 1
When you're out, there is a lot of people have a lot of insight that they can share and it will make you better out there.

01:48:46:02 - 01:49:10:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, and I think this goes down to safety too. Max, we've talked about this a lot with Cody Bradford and a lot of the other guys that we've talked to is just like, yeah, how to approach people And like when it's, you know, we've we've seemed to determine that it's always our job if we notice something unsafe or we notice something that you know is unethical or something that's not treating the crag right, like, you know, it's your job to say something.

01:49:10:00 - 01:49:13:18
Speaker 2
But yeah, it's all about the approach and it's how you these people.

01:49:13:19 - 01:49:14:00
Speaker 1
And.

01:49:15:06 - 01:49:34:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think some people are just not going to be receptive to it in the first place. People just have too much of a big ego, you know, to even receive it. So but yeah, I think it is our job to try to do the best and to promote safety and awareness to, you know, at this this podcast topic is just stewardship.

01:49:34:14 - 01:50:12:06
Speaker 2
So you know how to treat Crag and what we do. Well, yeah. So you know, Max, we have talked about kind of our, our perception on climbing and the role is me and the role that it plays in our lives and how much self-worth we attach to the sport of climbing. And this kind of what this topic is about is, is, you know, what are the reasons why climbing can become so absorbing and so important in our lives and and kind of what what things in our lives we might be neglecting.

01:50:12:06 - 01:50:32:12
Speaker 2
You know, Max, you've talked a lot about it in our podcast, about using climbing as an escape, an escape from from things. And for me, it was more like climbing was the reason to get up every morning like it. It was the reason why I felt good every day is because of what I what I had done in my space of climbing.

01:50:32:23 - 01:50:58:21
Speaker 2
And I think it's so easy to get into that mindset. And, you know, this next topic, you know, Colby has something similar and. We're here to really shine a little bit of light on how easy it is for climbing to absorb us and kind of like how it might be as important as we tend to believe it might be in the few earlier years of of climbing.

01:50:58:21 - 01:51:16:14
Speaker 2
So, Colby, take it away. You know, when when did climbing really start taking over your life? And and when did you start to realize that it might not as important as you might have thought it would have been?

01:51:16:14 - 01:51:58:11
Speaker 1
So for me, like I had said when I the earlier years of climbing, it was climbing in the summer, snowboarding in the winter, climbing the summer snowboard in the winter, kind of a those were the things I did. And I would say, what year was. And to be looking at, I would say honestly, very late 2016 and then into 2017 all the way to now like 100%, it was like, okay, like I don't really care about snowboarding that much.

01:51:58:11 - 01:52:23:14
Speaker 1
Like I'm going to drive 4 hours to Bishop almost every weekend all winter to go climb in the gorge or whatever it might be. I'd start doing that. I mean, I would go at least twice a month, all winter until spring again, and then I would start climbing around here when things started opening up in Tahoe. But it just started becoming the one thing where it's like, This is what I do.

01:52:23:14 - 01:52:54:03
Speaker 1
I do it all the time. It's the only thing I care to do. It's my escape from everything. I mean, I'm pushing myself to stay mentally, physically fit for it. It just, you know, was very consuming all day in my in my brain of just. Just rock climbing all the time. And yeah, beginning of 2017, I started a long term relationship that has recently just ended, actually.

01:52:54:03 - 01:53:25:07
Speaker 1
But throughout that entire relationship of almost six years, I do feel like climbing has taken and had taken a bigger role then. In hindsight it should have, which I never thought I would have that perspective, you know, in the moment. But looking back, I'm like, Wow, I probably could have to think about that. Think about climbing a little less and focus on it a little less because, I mean, I was going to have fun climbing no matter what.

01:53:25:07 - 01:53:39:10
Speaker 1
And I don't know if that 100% makes sense to everyone, but it's something I've realized that, you know, has just come to fruition where it's like, well, it really wasn't the the most important thing in life. So, yeah.

01:53:39:10 - 01:54:06:17
Speaker 2
I think that it's it's funny. It's like, I don't know, we might get some heat for kind of having this narrative that I think we've talked about on the show a little bit is just like, you know, the narrative of climbing is not that sick and it is, but it's it's a hard question to answer because you got to start asking yourself like, what else is there to life?

01:54:06:21 - 01:54:31:07
Speaker 2
You know, I think it the the the ether of climbing and the ethos of of the sport is just like give everything, dedicate your life. You get in a van, you quit your job, become homeless, go climb for six months in a year harder. Keep climbing, keep sending, keep getting better and better grades. And it's like, Why?

01:54:31:13 - 01:54:33:03
Speaker 1
What are you sacrificing?

01:54:33:03 - 01:55:18:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think the important question to ask ourselves is, Yeah, like, what are we sacrificing? What areas of our lives could we be dedicating more time and more focus to that we might be neglecting? And so, you know, that's something that's really rung true for me with this accident. Is it removed climbing as a an outlet but also took away any dream I had of like whatever air quotes I thought I might have had in climbing and just made me refocus on like my career and my artistic side of myself, like areas where I just wasn't allowing any time for development.

01:55:19:01 - 01:55:41:10
Speaker 2
And so like this topic I think is super for people to hear because yeah, I mean, the sport of climbing is just so easy to get lost in. And I think that the narrative these days with the media is not really focused on like, I don't know, the healthy addiction that you could get to climbing because there are so many benefits to it.

01:55:41:21 - 01:55:57:07
Speaker 2
But there's just like this weird dark side to it that I think no one really talks about. Max Like, do you have an experience with with what we're talking about and, and, and maybe things in your life you might might have been neglecting and choosing climbing to kind of fill that void instead?

01:55:58:03 - 01:56:17:03
Speaker 4
Yeah. I mean, I think I absolutely feel that and resonate with it on some level. You know, part of me is possessed and driven and wants to to do those things. I do want to live in a van. I am all encompassed with climbing. You know, my house is pretty much a storage and I just want to climb all the time.

01:56:18:19 - 01:56:43:15
Speaker 4
But then, you know, another part of that is the side that we're talking about, which is you what is realistic. And I think there's going to be a very select few individuals who are actually going to take that route of like pure, you know, dedication and and consistency and doing that and just living and breathing it for a really long period of time and having it pay off pretty well.

01:56:43:15 - 01:57:14:11
Speaker 4
And I don't just necessarily mean like financially, it could be spiritually. It could be psychologically because like anything when you're giving yourself to it fully, other aspects of your life will kind of dwindle and fade into the background, right? Yeah. I don't know how I fully lie like that. I think I think I think something that's just good, which I think we do do on this podcast, is kind of just communicate in a more honest in a more honest way about it.

01:57:14:11 - 01:57:34:17
Speaker 4
You know, it's, it's, it's kind of an analogous to when you see, you know, a company promoting or some kind of, you know, ethos in our culture where it's like, oh, get rich, just dedicate your life to work and all this. It's like, well, most people who do that don't actually end up with the yacht and all these things and doing amazing.

01:57:34:21 - 01:57:57:02
Speaker 4
So it's like, yeah, selling the dream is really important and you want to empower people and stuff, but at the same time you do want to be realist, you know, if, if you're, you know, going to give everything to this thing and it's not going to give much in return to you. And then five years later, you realize your life's in ruin or that's something you might want to have some more on messaging about in the media, you know?

01:57:58:08 - 01:57:59:15
Speaker 1
Yeah, I don't.

01:57:59:15 - 01:58:07:22
Speaker 4
Know. I think it is it is a difficult difficult thing to think of. Like right now I feel pretty possessed by climbing and I really, really motivated to climb a whole bunch more.

01:58:08:18 - 01:58:35:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, Yeah. That's something that. You know, I had felt for the last, you know, I don't know how many years. It's like throughout this whole last relationship, like, you know, every week and going climbing, doing this. I always thought that, you know, that was the most important thing. And the fact that we were going and doing that together every week and I thought was the most important thing to both of us.

01:58:35:02 - 01:59:03:04
Speaker 1
But, you know, I think I was just committing personally just too much bandwidth to just the focus of climbing. And it's like everyone's only got so much bandwidth mentally day in and day out. And yeah, it's interesting to look back and be like, you know, I only have this much bandwidth and I was limiting too much to just that feeling of just like climbing and just like, Oh, I got to climb this route and that route.

01:59:03:04 - 01:59:40:22
Speaker 1
And even though I wasn't committing my life to van life or going all in, it's like it's still consumed and like it was just a kind of chasing the dragon. You know, people have used that expression many times, but it does even if I feel like even if you don't go all in at times, like it feels so possessive of your entire life and so much revolves around and I think for me anyways, it comes down to how much energy it takes to stay physically and mentally at your whatever your best is in that that month or that week.

01:59:40:22 - 02:00:09:03
Speaker 1
It's like staying in that spot is takes a lot of energy for climbing because we all know if you don't climb for X amount of time, suddenly you're scared. Suddenly you're scared to fall. Suddenly you get pumped a little quicker and like your project's completely out of reach. So I feel like just the entire act of maintaining climbing takes so much effort to stay at that pinnacle.

02:00:09:03 - 02:00:35:13
Speaker 1
It's like it's like with any, you know, elite sport or athlete, to maintain their pinnacle is like their entire life. And and I feel like for climbing it almost is that kind of work for for people lower down on the totem pole so to speak where you might not be an elite professional climber, but to maintain your best ability to climb.

02:00:36:04 - 02:01:16:07
Speaker 1
It's almost as much effort as it does for, you know, an elite UFC fighter or an elite player to maintain their peak physical fitness and stuff like I really do. I feel like it. It does take that that same amount of effort in a in a weird kind of way and then to touch on what you said, Max, about, you know, being super motivated about climbing right now for you and know, really wanting to keep pursuing it and that and for me, all of a sudden it's like the exact opposite where I'm like, man, like, how much do I really care about climbing in the grand scheme of things?

02:01:16:07 - 02:01:41:11
Speaker 1
All of a sudden? It's, it's been hard for me to deal with, like and I've been going climbing almost every weekend for the last bit here since things kind of came to a head. But I'm not I'm not getting the same enjoyment out of it that I used to. And, you know, I'm I'm hoping that's short term because I really do want climbing to continue to be a that really pivotal kind of light at the end of the tunnel.

02:01:41:22 - 02:01:59:11
Speaker 1
One of my life, like, I want it to always provide that for me. But I definitely do have a different perspective lately, and I've definitely taken a step back, which I just I never thought I would do. It is so interesting to me, and I think it just speaks volumes to just how difficult life can be, I guess.

02:01:59:11 - 02:02:05:15
Speaker 1
And you know, how how much all of us can can change and perspectives can change. Know?

02:02:06:07 - 02:02:28:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it boils down to what our internal dialog and what our relationship with climbing is. And obviously this varies from person person and you know, there is nothing wrong with being psyched about climbing. You know, like I'm not I don't think we're we're here to say that that's like, you know, we're pointing the finger. I mean, like, if you're psyched on climbing, then you're neglecting something else in your life.

02:02:28:05 - 02:02:28:19
Speaker 2
You know? It's like.

02:02:30:05 - 02:02:31:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's 100% not.

02:02:31:11 - 02:02:47:12
Speaker 2
It's not the case. And I think that the point of this question, the point of this kind of topic at least, is just to, you know, for for myself and for Colby here, I think that it's just a matter of like maybe take a second and just like ask yourself like.

02:02:48:01 - 02:02:48:14
Speaker 1
That is.

02:02:49:03 - 02:03:32:00
Speaker 2
What is climbing mean to me know, are there areas in my life I might be neglecting and just have a genuine answer to that question. And if you know you're content and you're psyched and you're exactly where you need to be and you've got a healthy relationship with climbing and sick, awesome, like continue down that path. Yeah, I just think it's easy to get caught up in the, the other side of it and just like not really realizing what you might be missing by dedicating your entire self-worth and focus on to when you know whatever your relationship with climbing is, you know there, there are other things as well.

02:03:32:00 - 02:03:35:11
Speaker 2
So yeah, I think that's just like the main point of this conversation.

02:03:35:15 - 02:03:37:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think that's well-put. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah.

02:03:38:08 - 02:04:04:20
Speaker 4
It's it's definitely a really interesting point. And ultimately, if it is right for you, well, it your drive should be able to withstand the scrutiny. You know, like the question of it, you know, that matter and we should be having this conversation. I did really resonate with what you were saying, Colby, actually, because I know, you know, sometimes my girlfriend Ray, and we climb all the time and everything, and she's the main person I climb with.

02:04:05:13 - 02:04:22:20
Speaker 4
Yeah. You know, I sometimes I think she's a little bit more adventurous and just like, let's just go for a hike or something. And me, like, I need, I need a goal, you know? I'm like, No, no, no. Like, it's like, I want to climb this or I want to do this or like, I need some kind of a goal or I'll go explore something.

02:04:23:06 - 02:04:44:23
Speaker 4
But it's, it's interesting, you know, like, I am definitely missing something by not not being just as open and okay, this doesn't have to be about climbing, you know, or improving your fitness or something. Yeah. You know, for whatever is being the best version of you, you know, it can, it can be something else. So there's, there's definitely times where I struggle with that a lot for sure.

02:04:45:07 - 02:04:57:02
Speaker 4
And then definitely put I really like the way you put it above bandwidth because yeah, I definitely a lot of bandwidth is taken up by climbing and part of me loves it, you know, it's something I'm conflicted with. So yeah.

02:04:57:14 - 02:05:20:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. On to directly speak to what you're saying, like to a T where you know, your girlfriend wants to do things that are adventurous and fun and with you that aren't necessarily just going climbing. Like, that's something that I had to realize. And, you know, I realized probably a little too late in the relationship that I had that just ended.

02:05:20:17 - 02:05:39:20
Speaker 1
But it's like I thought that, you know, every weekend she wanted to go climbing and just every weekend was about climbing her also, because she always asked me like, do you where are we going to climb this weekend? Like, where are we going to go? And I was always like, Oh, awesome. I got so we're just doing a cool.

02:05:39:20 - 02:06:14:08
Speaker 1
But, you know, really in hindsight she was just a giver and like, just want to make me happy. So it was always it was always, you know, her doing that because she's like, this is what's going to make him happy because he's so stressed in the day to day right now. And I didn't realize like, Hey, if she wants to do things that aren't climbing, you know, vacations that aren't climbing, weekends that aren't climbing, evenings that aren't climbing, do other things that are still super fun and things that, like I said, I realized I'm just a little too late.

02:06:14:08 - 02:06:39:14
Speaker 1
Probably that are just like things that I want to enjoy too, that aren't climbing, that gets like you can go spend a week and you know, for me it was recently Florida like go spend a week in Florida for a week just doing nothing but hanging out the beach, playing frisbee, getting drinks like just relaxing. And typically I would never plan a vacation around that.

02:06:39:14 - 02:07:01:11
Speaker 1
But, you know, it's like I started realizing like, wow, this is really nice to take a break and step back climbing and do something not climbing related for her an activity or a vacation. Because, I mean, for me, every vacation's always just like, where are we going to go on vacation that we can go climbing? You know, it's always like that.

02:07:01:11 - 02:07:29:17
Speaker 1
And that's definitely a perspective of change that, you know, with what you just said about, you know, your your girlfriend not wanting to necessarily always just have to have that climbing aspect of it. And, you know, I think that's another thing that everyone can kind of look into and realize, hey, there's something to think about here and something to realize that you could be missing out on by just going climbing, if that makes sense.

02:07:30:10 - 02:07:30:20
Speaker 4
Yeah.

02:07:30:20 - 02:07:33:05
Speaker 1
So I made a long winded response, but.

02:07:35:11 - 02:08:10:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a tough one. It's a tough one because, yeah, I mean, when you're in it, it feels sick, you know, when you're in it, you know, there's no, there's not even a feeling that there is something else that is even worth your time. So yeah, it's interesting. Just different sides of the coin. And it sucks that sometimes really tragic things, whether you know, it's a 30 foot ground fall or, you know, a relationship ending to make you realize these things that you were neglecting.

02:08:10:03 - 02:08:24:19
Speaker 2
And it sucks that sometimes it's like that. Those hard lessons that you have to to learn to to get some perspective so yeah just interesting conundrum Yeah I mean that's I don't know see I feel like it's a good place to leave it. What about you guys?

02:08:25:10 - 02:08:26:12
Speaker 4
Yeah, I think that's a great place.

02:08:27:12 - 02:08:49:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. I feel like I spoke on everything I really wanted to in this podcast because. Do you feel like I had that good perspective to offer to you guys and to, you know, all the listeners out there? And I feel like I got that off my chest and hopefully in a way that made sense to most people because sometimes I feel like I can kind of go off on a little bit of a tangent.

02:08:49:04 - 02:08:49:09
Speaker 1
But no.

02:08:49:10 - 02:08:52:00
Speaker 2
I mean, if you listen to our All Burgess episode, you retain.

02:08:52:00 - 02:09:22:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, you're good to go. All right, fair enough. But but still. Yeah. And I appreciate the opportunity to share my perspective and and my new found perspective because you know, this, this conversation would have been different two months ago. Yeah, honestly, it would have been not that it would have been completely different. But I'd have a different look on climbing and and what it means to me and and the things that it it distracts me from two months.

02:09:22:02 - 02:09:33:15
Speaker 1
Go out, have a completely different perspective now. So glad I came on now I'm glad this, this podcast could put off Danielle honestly because I feel like I had a better perspective now and offered more to everyone out there.

02:09:33:15 - 02:09:34:14
Speaker 3
Honestly, I really do.

02:09:35:03 - 02:09:54:04
Speaker 2
Yeah. Thanks for coming on the show. You know, we haven't talked about stewardship or our development at all and I think it's been a topic we've been looking someone for a while. So I think you were the perfect guest, super knowledgeable and just lots of experience behind the behind the drill, behind the hammer and yeah, it's been it's been awesome.

02:09:54:04 - 02:09:55:04
Speaker 2
Opportunity to chat with you.

02:09:55:09 - 02:10:11:14
Speaker 4
Yeah it was a pleasure you know digitally meeting you Colby and everything. I wish I could be there in the room with you guys but Yemen thanks for taking the time and and also just you know thanks for developing roots and you know being a part of the climbing community like that and coming on here and sharing your perspective.

02:10:12:04 - 02:10:18:11
Speaker 1
Yeah no, just see I'm glad to do it and I appreciate it and got a place. Stay in Squamish now.

02:10:18:22 - 02:10:21:05
Speaker 4
Yeah. Yeah, man. Hey, you want to come climb?

02:10:21:11 - 02:10:43:07
Speaker 1
You know, you dragged me up some routes.


Introduction
Chit Chat
Colby's Background
Route Developing
Developing and Climbing 5.13
How Can the Majority Contribute?
A Potential Darkside to Climbing